WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 136 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:02.880 Also media. 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:05.800 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.480 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:12.559 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.400 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:18.920 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:20.840 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:22.639 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:27.680 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:31.480 Welcome, dick it up and here a podcast that's occasionally 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:34.760 hijacked by the Supreme Court because a bunch of fun 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:37.240 a lucky dipshit's rule us all. I'm your host, me 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:37.919 along with. 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.159 Me as James Hi man, I'm excited to be hijacked. 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:43.920 If they're like a pirate situation is like Samuel alta 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.559 Liker one leg and a patch coming in hijacking. 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:50.120 They are not cool. To be fair, I've made a 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.440 mistake here because the Supreme Court justices are not cool 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:55.080 enough to take up a piracy that is that is 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:57.800 a grand and noble tradition dating back millennia. 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:02.600 Yeah, we've been compulsory. I what's it colled civil asset 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:04.360 forfeited by the Supreme. 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:09.600 Yeah, theft bad. So originally this is gonna be an 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.919 episode about how messed up Clarence Thomas is and Samuel 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:15.600 Alito's wives are, because, oh my god, are they a 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:17.560 bunch of right wing fanatics. We haven't really covered it 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:21.240 on this show. But then this episode got hijacked by 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:23.959 a bunch of other Supreme Court news. So we're gonna 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:26.360 talk a bit about Samuel Alito's wife, will We'll put 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:33.720 off Clarence Thomas's qan on wife for another day. But yeah, so, 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:35.920 so this is gonna be a sort of random episode 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:39.360 of the sixteen million pieces of Supreme cour We're not 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:41.160 even getting gatch to them all. There's Supreme Court news 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.080 that like we can't even cover, there's too much of it. 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:48.680 But yeah, let's start with the MEPhI pristone case. So okay, 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:52.800 I think people we've talked about MEPhI pristone before on 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.360 the show, and you know, there's been a widely sort 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.480 of dreaded case where a group called the Alliance for 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.520 Hippocratic Medicine been trying to see the FDA. 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:06.640 Yeah, the amount of these fucking pretend medical organizations, I'm sorry, 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:09.239 I'm deready. The episode that's like the American College of 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:11.200 Pediatrics is another one, like. 0:02:11.480 --> 0:02:14.200 Hey, wait till you find out who these people actually are, 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:18.120 because it's amazing. And two, I think you haven't seen 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.640 any of these legal arguments right now. Oh I'm hoping 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:23.560 that we get to Bohemian Grove. That's the only thing 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.639 I've followed from a Supreme Court. Amazingly, Supremeia, the Bohemian 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:27.920 Grove did not make the cut. 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.639 Amazingly Damn. Okay, I'm ready for some high tear shit. 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:35.160 I'm so excited. You are about to see some shit. 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.920 You are about to see what I genuinely believe to 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.320 be the worst legal arguments ever made in a court 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:44.680 of law. And like I say this having watched like 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:48.440 probably four I listen to probably forty hours of Alex 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:53.000 Jones trial depositions from different trials, and I genuinely believe these. 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:54.880 To be the worst legal arguments anyone has ever made. 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:59.040 So all right, I'm I'm going to quote from an 0:02:59.080 --> 0:03:02.640 article on the Nation here, no Elias, So this is 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:06.480 this is about who the Alliance for Hypocratic Medicine is. 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:10.080 Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine is a mismash of anti abortion 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:20.160 doctors nurses and dentists, yes, dentists, amazing though none of 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.800 them have ever prescribed the pill, claimed that they are 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:27.520 being they have been harmed by its existence. Their theories 0:03:27.560 --> 0:03:31.040 of standing weight range from comical to inapt to offensive 0:03:31.040 --> 0:03:35.600 to contemptible. They include arguments such as, doctors who do 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:38.320 not perform abortions are harmed when they have to work 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:41.640 in the emergency room where alleged complications from the abortion 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.040 pill arise. And by the way, we should mention this. 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:45.360 By the way, so part of part of this whole 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.800 thing is that there's been the right has been trying 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.520 to like make up this fake argument that this abortion well, okay, 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:53.440 mess of person can be used for a number of things. 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.560 But they've been trying to make up arguments that like 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.600 there's like scary side effects with fake studies, and like 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.640 even the right wing court was like this is bullshit. 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:04.800 So so again they're saying that again, having a doctor 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:06.960 who has to do work in a place where there's 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:10.680 fake side effects that aren't happening, they're saying this is 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:14.680 this is an injury. The second one obstetricians who do 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.760 not perform abortions are harmed because they feel complicit in 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.760 the abortions that take place, even if they are not 0:04:20.839 --> 0:04:26.280 a part of the procedures. What the fuck? Literally, one 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:28.120 of the justices was like, what do you mean a 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:30.359 complicit Are you handing them a bottle of water or 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.039 something like, I'm. 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:41.280 The the abortion clinic. That's what I do. I'm on 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:44.520 the hydration team. Fucking Planned Parenthood. 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:51.599 Medical staff are hard via complicity. Also and four and 0:04:51.760 --> 0:05:00.480 this is the best one, this one, I rando. People 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:04.320 who do not perform abortions nonetheless suffer from quote unquote 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:08.920 aesthetic injury of being deprived as seeing pregnant people jiggle 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.440 around was sore bad. This is also this is a 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:13.880 direct call from the thing. I'm not making this theory up. 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.360 This is what Fifth Circuit Judge James Hoe wrote with 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:20.600 upholding the ban on mephipristone. 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:24.200 Okay, what the fuck like? What this is like that 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:26.280 they're being deprived of the say, this is like a 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.400 kink thing. They can't see pregnant people. 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.680 No, no, it's a parent Apparently. The theory is that 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:33.839 being able to see pregnant people is like good and 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:35.960 healthy for you or something, and if you don't do it, 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:39.960 And there's there's another one. There's another one that that 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:41.800 wasn't in this article, but that wasn't some other things. 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:45.480 Is that I one of their other cases is that 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:49.960 doctors enjoy working with unborn patients, and then this is 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:51.360 this is an injury to them. 0:05:51.800 --> 0:05:54.880 Yeah, I think you may want to examine your fucking 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:56.159 social skills, but but. 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.400 Your fucking dentists are being like, I can't work on 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:00.880 the teeth pregnant people. 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:06.719 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been deprived from doing fetus orthodontics, 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.360 and therefore I will take it to the Supreme Court. 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:13.000 What a wild fucking case. Whate incredible system that this 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:14.279 made it to the Supreme Court. 0:06:14.640 --> 0:06:17.440 Okay, the absolute funniest part about this, the like right 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:21.000 wing dipshit lawyer for the Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine is 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:22.200 Josh Halley's wife. 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:27.200 I didn't juste halle like like Popular Front salute to 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.599 the January sixth people. Yeah that little yeah, yeah, I 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:34.880 will not use an adjective that we cannot broadcast. 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:36.920 Okay, and so sort of, I mean, not that surprise. 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.719 So people who are following the trial, I think expected 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.000 this well, they expected probably like a sevent too or 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:45.880 an eight one. But this was a nine to Oh no, wait, 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:51.000 this is bullshit, Like I think, I think, you know. 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:53.160 So there's been a lot of like good coverage about 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:55.520 the sort of legal aspects here, and I guess we 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:57.279 should we should before we go for that, we should mention. 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:03.000 So what this ruling does, like effectively is that, Okay, 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:05.480 so there's not going to be a national ban of 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.640 MEPhI pristone. However, comma the states that have outlawed MEPhI pristone, 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.360 it's that doesn't change anything there. So there are still 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:14.880 a lot of people who cannot access this drug, who 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:19.320 cannot access their life saving medical care because they're ruled 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:24.000 by a bunch of fucking right wing bigots and like 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:29.120 Christian extremists, et cetera, et cetera. But this case has 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:34.040 established something extremely important, which is that there is actually 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.880 a legal limit to the amount of bullshit you can do, 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:41.520 even if you are a right wing lawyer who like 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.360 the court agrees with like Josh Holly's wife used to 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:49.640 be a clerk for Justice John Roberts. So she was like, 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.560 she's like embedded, embedded in this whole right wing ecoism. 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:53.880 She's one of the big sort. 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:57.480 Of right yeah, yeah, yeah, grooming her for success. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.800 But these people final for like the first time ever 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.160 made made a set of legal argument's sole bullshit. Even 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.960 the Supreme Court was like, what the fuck? And I think, 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:11.160 I think, okay, so this is this is where we're 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:14.200 going into sort of MIA's kind of like bullshit theory here. 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.200 But the reason this was thrown out was that, Okay, 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:20.560 so this is the part that's like obviously real. So 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.320 in American law, I mean, I think this is true 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:26.640 of most legal systems. I don't know any that don't 0:08:26.680 --> 0:08:29.280 function like this. But in order so, in the US, 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.360 it is very easy to sue someone. You can sue 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:34.480 someone over twenty dollars. It's in the constitution. It fucking rules. 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:38.480 It's very funny. We are extremely ligitious country. But you 0:08:39.080 --> 0:08:42.040 need you need what you need something called standing to 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:44.120 sue in order to do this. There's some kind of 0:08:44.120 --> 0:08:48.559 complicated parts of this that you know, evolve around jurisdiction 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:50.600 and what court blah blah blah. But the important thing 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:52.640 is that someone has to have done an injury to you. 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:55.880 And this this is the part when this entire case 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:59.640 fell apart because they could not find a single person. 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.480 But that's suffered an actual injury from members time. 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:10.679 Yes, outstanding, just incredible stuff, like yeah, yeah, well, I 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.800 mean that's because they could sue on behalf of unborn people. 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.200 Mea, it didn't work, well, I mean to for this, 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:19.360 this one technically wasn't this This one was on behalf 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:24.000 of like of the dentists and dentists and ship. But okay, 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:26.720 I think I think that there's been an important legal 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.760 standing here because so you know, we we have covered 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.920 on this show the case three h three Creator versus Alenis, 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.719 which is the one where the Supreme Court ruled that 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.480 is legal to discriminate against queer people on religious grounds 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:42.040 as long as your business is quote unquote creative and 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.439 it's like a speech act. That that's the one where 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.480 it's a cake one, right, uh no, this is a 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:51.440 wedding website one. This this is this is the more 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.320 recent one that was like some woman was like I 0:09:53.360 --> 0:09:56.920 was forced to make a wedding website for a gay person. Now, okay, 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.400 so what we talked about in that case is that importantly, 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.720 this never happened. This woman was never forced to make 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:06.640 a website for a gay person, right, like that that 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.600 never happened. But you know, the court. The court still 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.240 upheld that and like let them, you know, like like 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.160 let them basically institute a bunch of like insane you know, 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.120 like potentially like states can institute a bunch of like 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:22.360 insane laws. Now about this, but okay, So, so what 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:26.240 we have in in the wedding website case is you 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:29.000 have a real person who a fake injury happened to, 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:33.120 and that apparently is good enough for standing for if 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.400 you're a right wing like activist for the Supreme Court, 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:37.719 you can have a real person that an injury did 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.880 not happen to you, but they can imagine an injury 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.199 that could have happened to them, and that's good enough. 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:46.520 Now there's an important legal president of being set here, 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.240 which is that, Okay, again, nothing has to actually have 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:51.400 happened to You can make up what happened to you, 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:55.199 but you have to have a an actual person who 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.480 would injury could have happened to. And b you could 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:00.720 have a fake injury, but if the injur was real, 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.959 it would have to be a real injury. Like so 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:05.679 so you could you could you can march up the 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.560 Supreme Court with a person who said I was thrown 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:11.960 into a volcano because of Woke. And obviously they weren't, 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:14.320 they weren't thrown into a volcano. But you know, you 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:16.520 you could have Woke outlawed because they said they were 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:18.520 thrown into a volcano because of Woke. But what you 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:23.439 can't do, apparently, the actual line is you have no person, 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:25.719 right is you are a group of people who are 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.359 suing who have said that because of Woke, someone somewhere 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.400 like hypothetically it might become impossible to flap your wings 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:38.080 and fly, And that's apparently because no, no, no, that's not 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.800 true though, because the the sarlac pit could conceivably you 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.280 you could build a sarlac pit, right right, Okay, yeah, 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.559 it's like if you're you're the fake injury you're imagining 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.480 if it were real, like would have to be a 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.680 real injury. What you can't do is have is not 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.520 have a person and then also have the injury you're 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.120 talking about not be a real injury even even if 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:03.400 it did happen, which is what's happening in this case. 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:05.760 So that's the line that has been drawn in the 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:10.360 sand for conservatives is like you absolute clowns, like we 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:14.280 are going to let you break every single law, but 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:17.839 the thing you're pretending happened, if it actually did happen, 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.160 has to has to be a real injury. So this 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:23.840 is the light of the sand that's been drawn by 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.640 a huge democracy. Yeah. I mean also, like, I mean, 0:12:27.640 --> 0:12:30.040 obviously there's some sort of poison pill stuff in this 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:32.640 that's kind of more legally complicated that we're not going 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:34.560 to really get into. Me. There's some stuff in here 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.960 that because this is a Kavanall ruling, right, So there's 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.600 some stuff in here that like is kind of is 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:42.520 basically Kavnall being like, Okay, if you want to do 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:44.800 this again, but like bring a real case, Like here's 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:45.920 how you might be able to do it. 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.840 Yeah, where he like coaches him through. Yeah, I mean 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:50.839 there's like a little bit of that. 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:53.240 And there's some stuff here basically trying to make it 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:56.640 harder for civil rights groups to like do cases where 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.439 like they have one of their people pose as a 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:01.240 right someone trying to buy a house or whatever. So 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.600 those are some stuff. This ruling is still fucking over 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:05.920 some people's civil rights. Like less you think the Supreme 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.719 Court did something good, but we have now established the 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:15.640 Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine standard of fake injury. H do 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:17.319 you know what else? Do you know what else will 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.679 give you fake injuries but not real injuries? 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:22.760 What can we say categorically that that's I mean, what 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:25.400 if we get like black rifle coffee, right, that could 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.160 do an injury to your to your gut? 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.280 I guess, I guess we can't say that we Okay, 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.240 do you know what else? We cannot make any promises about? 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:34.960 Would that be the products and services to support this show? 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:48.800 It is and we are back. So speaking of products 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.280 and services, there was also a very bad Supreme Court 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.560 ruling in a case about the National Labor Relations Board 0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:58.040 and Starbucks. So I don't know if we I don't 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.839 think we specific covered this. We've covered a lot of 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.240 cases on this show of people being fired in retaliation 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:09.160 for stars we covered a different case of a worker 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.959 being fired in retaliation for yougan organizing from Starbucks. 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:14.200 But great stuff. 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.920 Yeah, But so this specific case the NLRB National Labor 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:23.440 Relations Board, if your opponent like breaks labor law or 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.560 for example, firings firing so one in retaliation for union 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.040 organizing is in fact our violation of labor law. If 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.880 this happens, you can file something called an unfair labor practice. 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.480 Eventually you go before the National Labor Relations Board and 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:37.600 they make a decision. But one of the things that 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.120 the NLRB can do, because this process takes in an 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.520 extremely large amount of time, and if this process goes 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:45.360 into like the regular courts, is going to take years 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.000 and years and years, and during that time you're still 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:51.400 going to be fired. So you know, one of the 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.800 things that the NLRB can do is issue and ask 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.160 a judged issue an injunction to force uh to Like, basically, 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.080 a judge can tell Starbucks like, no, fuck you, you are like, 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.120 until this core case is resolved, you have to rehire 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:08.080 this person. And so basically what happened Starbucks sued over this. 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:10.120 I got to the Supreme Court, and the question that 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.880 basically came to, like what standard of evidence does the 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:17.920 NLRB have to have that this worker's rights are being 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:20.200 violated before they conditioned an injunction? The Supreme Court said, 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:22.400 it has to be like a really high standard, which 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:25.480 is bullshit. This was an eight one decision, UHL. So 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.640 it's not that's the thing. So okay, this this this 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:32.200 is important here this is being reported as an eight 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.280 one decision it's actually not because Katsia Brown Jackson filed 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:39.280 a concurring opinion with slightly like slightly better logic but 0:15:39.400 --> 0:15:44.920 also still bad logic about this, so effectively, this was 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.120 a nine to zer agreement with Starbucks with like slightly 0:15:48.160 --> 0:15:54.440 differing like reasons for concurring. Right. So yeah, and this 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:56.880 is you know, as as I told James yesterday, this 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:59.280 is in fact definitive proof that cop that workers are 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.640 not cops CO workers, because if this were a decision 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:06.040 about cops, it would be nine zero in the other direction. Yeah, 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:10.600 so this is very bad. It's already like almost impossibly 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.960 difficult to get the National Labor Relations Board to intervene 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.520 to stop the shift from happening. It can happen, it's 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:22.160 just a really really long process, and they almost never 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.160 file any of these injections in the first place. I'm 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:25.560 going to read a quote from the APA that I 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:31.160 disagree with. The NLARB requested fewer than twenty injunctions last year, 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.400 but they serve as a powerful deterrent against firing workers 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:38.320 trying to unionize, said Sharon Block, a professor at Harvard 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.680 Law School and a former member of the NLRB, with 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:44.240 a stricter standard in place to win the reinstatement of 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:47.240 fired workers, more companies may feel empowered to crack down 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:52.440 on unionization efforts. Miss Block said, now all offense to 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.840 miss Block. I think the fact that you were on 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:56.880 the fucking NLRB and you weren't out there trying to 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:02.600 fucking organize unions makes you, in fact, not a particularly 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.439 good person to ask about how effective the NLRB's efforts 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.879 have actually been here, because I like the number of 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.120 people I know personally unrelated to any of the work 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:13.960 that I do, who have been fired. Your retaliation for 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.600 union organizing is extremely high. And yeah, like, obviously this 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:18.800 is gonna make it. You know, this is gonna make 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.359 companies more like like more willing to do it. But 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.600 it's not like the completely half assed efforts that the 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:29.240 NLRB was making before. We're actually like really seriously deterring 0:17:29.600 --> 0:17:31.320 companies from firing you, right, like. 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:34.240 We have other It's not like there are no other 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:38.760 tools at the disposed of organized labor to respond to 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:41.080 a retaliatree something like this, right. 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.960 Yeah, the best way to get your boss not retaliated 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:47.159 against you is to be well organized enough that if 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:49.119 they fucking try this. You breathe that, you bring your 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:53.040 shout to a stop, and I have seen that work, right, Like, 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.960 it is possible to get people reinstated. It's it's hard, 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:59.000 but you know you probably have a better shot of 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.600 like doing it by being well organized than you do 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.600 with the fucking NLRB ever getting to your case. So 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:07.880 you know, I like, and you know, I don't want 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:11.080 to be completely doom and gloom about this because it's like, 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:13.520 you know, like you can still definitely organize unions, right, Like, 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.879 this hasn't made it impossible to like do any of 0:18:15.880 --> 0:18:19.359 this stuff. It's just that the legal apparatus is weighted 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:23.119 towards the boss, and the counteraction to legal apparatus being 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:27.360 weighted towards the boss is you and how well organized 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:29.199 you are. So we're going to go from that to 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.120 what this episode was originally supposed to be about, which 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.000 is a Preme Court wives. Yeah, and again, we were 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:37.000 gonna do war of this, but we're. 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:38.760 Making reality TV show about it instead. 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:44.440 Yeah, it's it's nuts, Okay. So the current big story 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:48.520 basically is that Samuel Alito's wife can't stop flying deranged 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:49.480 right wing flags. 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:52.840 I do love a flag person. 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:58.720 Yeah, so okay, Samuel Alito, Like, okay, So the story 0:18:58.760 --> 0:19:01.280 that has been run within the media, and again it's 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:04.280 not clear how true any of this is Samuel Alito. 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.439 So we're gonna talk about a bunch of deranged right 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.080 wing flags that've been flying outside the house of Alito property. 0:19:09.119 --> 0:19:11.040 Samuel Alito claimed that this is his wife and he 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:15.520 has nothing to do with it. Now do we the 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:19.679 public trust the word of a Supreme Court justice? And 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:22.520 I think the answer I'm not going to give you 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:24.600 the answer for you, but I'm I'm gonna lay that 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.040 out in front of you. So all right. So the 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:29.920 first one of these was she flew an upside down 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.040 US flag, which I had always remembered as being an 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.320 anti war thing. Yeah. 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.959 I think the Chuds have tried to take it back, like, yeah, 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.760 very sad. Yeah, they're doing it because of course Joe 0:19:42.760 --> 0:19:46.960 Biden is destroying the constitutional republic and say they're signaling 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:48.600 for help from other Chuds. 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.880 Yeah. Originally it was a like January sixth, the US 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:54.440 lection has been stolen thing. 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:57.119 Right, Yeah? Yeah. I still someone flying the thin blue 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:01.520 line flag upside down the other day. Unclear if they 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:03.359 had to fuck the police flag as well. So, like 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.159 I guess once I saw that the situation was clarified, 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:08.800 but I was like, is this incredible? Is a cop 0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:10.240 in danger? Like what's happening? 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:11.960 Yeah? 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:12.080 So? 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:13.159 And by the way, the other thing I want to 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:14.280 point out about this is that there are like a 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:16.439 bund there are a bunch of journalists who knew about 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.000 this like in twenty twenty one and then just sat 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:20.960 on it and didn't talk about it until like this 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:23.959 series the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah, and this 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:25.640 is this is this is this is why I refused. 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.720 I like, I largely refuse to call myself a journalist 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:31.399 because these people are fucking hacks and frauds who just 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.520 sit on the stupid thing for their fucking book releases. Yeah. 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:36.679 I mean, those people don't know to be called jeneralists, right, 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:40.560 it's pathetic. Like your job as a journalist is to 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.159 hold power to account and if you're not doing that 0:20:43.200 --> 0:20:47.720 because you want to sell more books or yeah, grift university. 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:50.600 And again, this would have been fucking useful to know 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:52.600 in that actual like in the in the because because 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:54.760 in the immediate aftermath of January sixth, there was an 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:57.720 actual sort of a desire to do something about it, 0:20:57.760 --> 0:20:59.840 and maybe if if you know, people had fucking know 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:04.000 that the wife of a Supreme Court justice was fucking 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:07.480 flying the shitty ass flag again probably actually a Supreme 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.879 Court justice, like was flying this shitty ass the electu 0:21:11.040 --> 0:21:15.960 was stolen flag. So that's part one of the flag news. Now. 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:18.520 Apparently partially what's going on is she's been getting into 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:20.440 a bunch of fights with her neighbors who fucking hate 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.600 her because she's an asshole, and she's. 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:29.639 Yeah, absolutely, if you live within eyesight of her house, 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:33.159 I will ship you one big a do crime flag. 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.880 They they apparently have been doing that ship and trolling, controlling, 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:42.000 which is fucking heroes. Hero Get how how mad this 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:44.720 made her later, But one of the other flags that 0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:48.040 she's been flying is a flag I had forgotten about, 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:51.000 which is the do you know the Appeal to Heaven flag? 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:51.600 Oh? 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:55.080 Yeah, no, yes, unfortunately I do may because I drive 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:56.640 around East County, San Diego. 0:21:57.240 --> 0:21:58.840 Yeah. 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:01.240 Yeah, A little tree flag for those who are not familiar, 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:03.879 little pine tree on a white background. Yeah. 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:08.240 So okay, So this flag has been taken up by 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:10.800 so it's it's been spread around basically, writing is kind 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:12.280 of more generally now, but it was it was originally 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.000 sort of reaped. This is a revolutionary war flag that 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:17.640 nobody has flown in like two hundred years, but it's 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:20.920 been taking back up by the New Epostolic Reformation, which 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:27.119 is like the guys oh boy, oh boy. Okay, So 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:31.400 they're a juror, like a deranged Christian nationalist like organization 0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.840 of churches that has combined the most deranged principles of 0:22:34.880 --> 0:22:37.760 the most deranged Christian sect, which is to say, Pentecostalism, 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:42.520 Charismatic Christianity, and like a very specific kind of insane dominionism, 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:45.840 and they have combined all of them together to form 0:22:46.000 --> 0:22:49.480 like the super ideology that's like it's it's it's the 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:51.800 fucking like it's it's, it's it's the it's the dragon 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:56.199 ball z fusion of like literally the worst parts of 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:59.919 every insane right wing Christian ideology. And so they have 0:23:00.119 --> 0:23:01.760 come out with the belief that like they have been 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:04.320 basically chosen by God to like seize control of the 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:05.919 US and into a theocracy. 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:10.640 Okay, they're like the power ranges of of Christian chads. 0:23:10.880 --> 0:23:13.439 Yeah. Yeah, Like it's like Marjorie Taylor Green's involved with 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:17.320 like Larry Leo is one of the big Federalist Society guys, 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:19.959 like also was flying this flag, and the Federal Society 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:22.960 has funneled a bunch of money to like a bunch 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:26.560 of like right wing legal cases and stuff. So this 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:28.119 is this is very good. 0:23:29.080 --> 0:23:30.359 So you used to see it a lot in the 0:23:30.400 --> 0:23:34.960 Pacific Northwest among that kind of white separatist Christian Yeah, 0:23:35.040 --> 0:23:37.639 like inward on their plate carriers a lot and stuff. 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:39.280 That's kind of what I associate it with. 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:42.200 Yeah, so this is this has been like like last year, 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:47.520 this was flying over Samuel Alito's beach house. So great 0:23:47.560 --> 0:23:48.400 things out thing here. 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:49.760 Fuck me. 0:23:50.440 --> 0:23:53.679 Yeah. So there's there's also a third piece of of 0:23:53.760 --> 0:23:58.400 missus Alito flag news, which is that so she got 0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:02.560 Project veritosed by a little documentary filmmaker. They like did 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:05.119 a sting operation, like when it bought a ticket to 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:07.040 one of her dinners are pretended to be a conservative 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:10.280 and filmed her. And I'm gonna read this quote from 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:14.399 from Rolling Stowe that's about like what she said. You 0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:16.359 know what I want? Miss Alito says, I want a 0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:18.560 sacred Heart of Jesus flag because I have to look 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:20.879 across a lagoon at the Pride flag for the next month. 0:24:21.320 --> 0:24:24.560 Referencing her husband, miss Alito said, he's like, oh, please, 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:26.879 don't put up the flag. I said, I won't do 0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:28.800 it because I'm deferring to you. But when you are 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:30.719 free of this nonsense, I'm putting it up and I'm 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:34.440 gonna send them a message every day, maybe every week. 0:24:34.480 --> 0:24:36.840 I'll be changing the flags. They'll be all kinds. I 0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:38.560 made a flag in my head. This is how I 0:24:38.600 --> 0:24:41.399 satisfy myself. I made a flag as white and yellow 0:24:41.400 --> 0:24:44.280 and orange flames around it, and in the middle is 0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:47.560 the word of begonia in Italian means shame virgona v 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:52.320 e r g og na virgona shame, shame, shame on you. 0:24:52.520 --> 0:24:52.960 She adds. 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:57.720 So she's so mad about gay people that she's making 0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:01.960 up flags in her head that's gonna fly to own them. 0:25:02.960 --> 0:25:06.439 Homophobic vexillology. That's uh, that's it's a new level of 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:09.840 fucking like having your brain broken by gay people existing. 0:25:10.440 --> 0:25:11.080 It's nuts. 0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:13.280 Do you know what hangs over my head like a 0:25:13.320 --> 0:25:14.400 flag that says shame? 0:25:15.680 --> 0:25:15.879 Is it? 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:16.080 Is it? 0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:18.720 The price of services? Is what this podcast is? 0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:20.640 The obligation to pivot to adverts. 0:25:20.720 --> 0:25:34.880 Yes, okay, So there is one last part of this 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:37.359 story that hasn't been getting any coverage at all that 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:40.359 I'm very alarmed about because and maybe it's the thing 0:25:40.400 --> 0:25:43.160 I should have I should have led with. Okay, I'm 0:25:43.160 --> 0:25:45.720 gonna read you this, and I am going to ask 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:50.520 you for a conceivable, possible alternative explanation. That is not 0:25:50.880 --> 0:25:53.520 that is not. Samuel Leo's wife is openly saying she 0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:57.800 is a Nazi. Quote when Windsor, Windsor is the name 0:25:57.840 --> 0:26:01.159 of the filmmaker who did the like sting. When Windsor 0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:04.440 tells Miss Alito she's being persecuted in and depicted as 0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:07.560 a convenient stand in for anybody who's religious, the Justice's 0:26:07.600 --> 0:26:11.280 wife gets quieter and her tone turns more serious. Look 0:26:11.320 --> 0:26:14.920 at me, Look at me. I'm German. I'm from Germany. 0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:18.760 My heritage is German. You come after me. I'm gonna 0:26:18.760 --> 0:26:21.160 give it back to you, and there will be a way. 0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:23.159 It doesn't have to be now, but there will be 0:26:23.240 --> 0:26:25.960 a way. They know. Don't worry about it. God, you 0:26:26.040 --> 0:26:29.199 read the Bible. Psalm twenty seven is my psalm mine, 0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:31.720 Psalm twenty seven. The Lord is by God and by 0:26:31.840 --> 0:26:34.639 Rock of whom shall I be afraid nobody. 0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:39.879 Now, Wow, Yeah, a lot of real emphasis on being German. 0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:44.639 What possible? Genuinely, I defy anyone to come up with 0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:47.720 a possible explanation of what the sentence. Look at me, 0:26:47.920 --> 0:26:51.560 Look at me. I'm German, I'm from Germany. My heritage 0:26:51.600 --> 0:26:54.119 is German. You come after me, I'm gonna give it 0:26:54.160 --> 0:26:57.960 back to you. What possible? She is just straight up 0:26:58.080 --> 0:27:02.119 saying I am a German Nazi. And this is something 0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:07.320 that fucking media has access to, and no one is 0:27:07.440 --> 0:27:10.080 leading with a story that says Samuel Aleto's wife says 0:27:10.080 --> 0:27:13.000 that she's a Nazi. I'm going insane. I fuck it, 0:27:13.000 --> 0:27:16.040 We're we're, we're. I've actually banged my microphone. We're fucking 0:27:16.080 --> 0:27:18.639 leading this episode with the title Samuel Aleto's wife admits 0:27:18.640 --> 0:27:22.120 she's a Nazi and other Supreme Court news because fuck them, 0:27:22.320 --> 0:27:25.159 someone's gotta do this. This is insane, This is nuts. 0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:27.520 What the fuck this is? 0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:31.239 This is a bizarre thing to say, like to so much. 0:27:31.760 --> 0:27:33.440 She knew to this passing with the journalists. 0:27:33.800 --> 0:27:36.479 No, no, no, no, she thought that they were a conservative activist. 0:27:36.520 --> 0:27:39.360 So what's happening here, I think is like like basically 0:27:39.400 --> 0:27:42.040 like kind of in private, like like in conservative circle, 0:27:42.160 --> 0:27:44.040 she's trying to say old people that like no, like 0:27:44.119 --> 0:27:47.199 I'm a fucking Nazi, like I'm down with you fucking right. 0:27:47.400 --> 0:27:49.960 Yeah. Yeah, it's sort of they're not saying the thing, 0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:51.119 but saying to sing. 0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:55.000 Yeah, like like it it's like it's it's not even 0:27:55.080 --> 0:27:58.040 dog whishing, it's just very openly telling selectives of people 0:27:58.119 --> 0:28:00.840 like hey, this is where I stand. So that is 0:28:01.040 --> 0:28:04.520 not good. And again this guy is one of the 0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:07.119 one of the unelected people who can at any moment, 0:28:07.160 --> 0:28:10.000 moment strip any right from you for effectively any reason. 0:28:10.200 --> 0:28:13.040 So that's great, Yeah, great, wonderful. 0:28:14.200 --> 0:28:17.080 I'm still yeah, mind boggled at this, Like yeah, I 0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:20.480 mean even if yeah, we're German, what are you gonna do, 0:28:20.720 --> 0:28:23.480 Like you have a two for two l rate in world. 0:28:23.320 --> 0:28:25.840 Yeah, you're gonna lose a third. 0:28:27.200 --> 0:28:31.000 More, get yours you again, get get divided in half? 0:28:31.040 --> 0:28:32.840 Have you given to Russia? Like what. 0:28:34.359 --> 0:28:36.919 It is? Like we we have not done much coverage 0:28:36.920 --> 0:28:39.320 of how insane Germany has gotten right now, but like 0:28:39.560 --> 0:28:42.600 like there are like there are entire mobs of like 0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:46.080 people in dance clubs chanting Germany is for Germans, like 0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:49.360 the eight Like there their Nazi party is like about 0:28:49.360 --> 0:28:50.560 to take control. 0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:53.640 Disband a number of like police and special force units. 0:28:53.680 --> 0:28:56.560 Oh yeah, the Nazis. Yeah yeah, what's not this all 0:28:56.640 --> 0:28:59.120 Nazis like that. You can be a Nazi in the 0:28:59.120 --> 0:29:01.120 German police force care that much. But it's because they 0:29:01.120 --> 0:29:03.280 were specific They keep on specifically getting caught, either with 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:06.000 kill lists of politicians or with the planned to overthrow 0:29:06.040 --> 0:29:08.600 the government. Yeah yeah, so like you know, so so 0:29:08.680 --> 0:29:10.320 we we like this, this, this is this is my 0:29:10.560 --> 0:29:12.720 Like Germany is the one country on earth that would 0:29:12.720 --> 0:29:15.080 be improved by an American occupation and then being split 0:29:15.120 --> 0:29:17.600 into like thirty five like every single country in the 0:29:17.600 --> 0:29:20.840 world gets their one square mile of Germany to rule 0:29:20.880 --> 0:29:26.160 over that. This would significantly improve Germany as a country. 0:29:26.400 --> 0:29:27.920 I love that. Yeah, turn it turned it into the 0:29:27.960 --> 0:29:28.600 model Uan. 0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:33.040 Yeah. So from our plan to make Germany an international 0:29:33.160 --> 0:29:34.920 occupied territory. 0:29:34.680 --> 0:29:37.160 At Cott Atcott to Germany, there we go. 0:29:37.600 --> 0:29:42.440 Yeah, we need to talk about there's even more. Just 0:29:42.480 --> 0:29:44.640 as Thomas bullshit. I thought there was only going to 0:29:44.680 --> 0:29:47.600 be one Justice Thomas story, and then a second Justice 0:29:47.600 --> 0:29:52.280 Thomas story broke as I was writing the script. So okay, 0:29:52.440 --> 0:29:56.440 So the Senate Judiciary Committee finally sort of got off 0:29:56.440 --> 0:29:59.280 its ass and decided to look at Justice Thomas's like 0:29:59.320 --> 0:30:01.520 obvious brea money from Harlan crow and a bunch of 0:30:01.560 --> 0:30:04.760 other mega donors, and they found lo and behold, Thomas 0:30:04.840 --> 0:30:11.600 took three more undisclosed private jet flights of Harlenklowro. Again, 0:30:11.640 --> 0:30:15.200 these people are just like obviously taking bribe money. No, 0:30:15.400 --> 0:30:17.920 Congress won't do anything. Dick Durbin will issue a strongly 0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:20.880 worded statement. Who he's the head of the Senate Judiciary Committee, 0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:24.480 will offer a strongly worded statement do nothing. So, yeah, 0:30:24.600 --> 0:30:26.440 if anything is going to be done to the Streame Court, 0:30:26.480 --> 0:30:28.840 it's going to be done by you, not by the 0:30:28.880 --> 0:30:32.400 fucking Congress that you dominantly elect. Uh, because they just 0:30:32.440 --> 0:30:35.240 don't give a shit. We also learned, so do you 0:30:35.360 --> 0:30:38.040 remember were you on the Clarence Thomas episodes. 0:30:38.880 --> 0:30:39.880 I know, I didn't think I was. 0:30:40.400 --> 0:30:42.160 Oh no, yeah, that might have been a me and 0:30:42.200 --> 0:30:44.280 garre one. Yeah. So one of the things that we 0:30:44.400 --> 0:30:47.200 learned was that Harlan Crowe had paid an unbelievable amount, 0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:51.760 like like hundreds of thousands of dollars to send Thomas's grandnephew, 0:30:51.800 --> 0:30:53.760 who he was like quote unquote raising like a son 0:30:53.760 --> 0:30:55.480 and send him to like expensive private schools. 0:30:56.120 --> 0:30:57.040 So normal. 0:30:57.720 --> 0:31:00.320 Yeah, so so we learned to we learned today or 0:31:00.360 --> 0:31:05.520 like like maybe two days ago that Thomas So okay, 0:31:05.560 --> 0:31:08.120 so that this kid that like he had like raised 0:31:08.160 --> 0:31:11.680 as a son, they just like completely So someone like 0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:13.720 some some media people like caught up with his son 0:31:13.760 --> 0:31:17.880 who's now in jail pending charges. Yeah, and his his 0:31:17.880 --> 0:31:20.000 his he's not going to be fucking bailed out by 0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:23.200 Justice Thomas who apparently like lost interest in him when 0:31:23.200 --> 0:31:25.040 he reached high school and just shipped him off to 0:31:25.080 --> 0:31:26.960 a boarding school. And then we always at boarding school, he 0:31:26.960 --> 0:31:30.480 got he got expelled for failing a drug test and 0:31:30.520 --> 0:31:32.160 they just like sen him back to his mom and 0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:34.160 cut him off. And he's talked to him like once 0:31:34.360 --> 0:31:37.720 or twice in the last fourteen years. Fucking So that's great, 0:31:37.840 --> 0:31:38.640 real piece of shit. 0:31:39.120 --> 0:31:41.920 I mean, yeah, what having Clarence Thomas as a as 0:31:41.960 --> 0:31:44.520 a as a patental figure in your life. That's to 0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:45.840 a motherfucker I can't imagine. 0:31:45.880 --> 0:31:49.560 So yeah, like I I true, I truly feel bad 0:31:49.600 --> 0:31:53.560 for this guy. Uh yeah, yeah, fuck Clarence Thomas. Finally 0:31:53.600 --> 0:31:56.160 to round up the Supreme Court news literally there like 0:31:56.280 --> 0:31:58.640 the board. Like in the morning, the script was like 0:31:58.800 --> 0:32:02.920 done right, and then again I wake up and there's 0:32:03.000 --> 0:32:07.320 breaking new Supreme Court has struck down Federal Bureau of 0:32:07.480 --> 0:32:11.600 Tobacco and Firearms thing banning bump stocks. So I'm gonna 0:32:11.600 --> 0:32:13.280 ask you to talk about bump stocks because I think 0:32:13.320 --> 0:32:14.920 I know what they are. But I'm not a gun person. 0:32:15.200 --> 0:32:18.400 So yeah, I'm happy to happy to be the token 0:32:18.800 --> 0:32:21.480 Cis white guy to talk about guns here. Yeah, So 0:32:21.560 --> 0:32:24.120 the ATF under Donald Trump, for a long time, the 0:32:24.120 --> 0:32:27.000 ATF it explicitly said that bump stocks were not machine guns. 0:32:27.360 --> 0:32:29.680 After the Las Vegas shooting, in which one was used 0:32:30.360 --> 0:32:32.360 the bump stock with the rules of machine guns, they 0:32:32.480 --> 0:32:33.040 kind of pivoted. 0:32:33.320 --> 0:32:33.480 Right. 0:32:34.840 --> 0:32:37.680 What it bump stock is for those who are not familiar, 0:32:37.720 --> 0:32:41.240 It's a device that kind of uses the recoil of 0:32:41.680 --> 0:32:46.120 the weapon to kind of re fire. So basically it 0:32:46.120 --> 0:32:50.400 allows you to fire much more quickly, right. But crucially, 0:32:50.480 --> 0:32:54.680 the trigger is going forward and back, unlike a machine 0:32:54.680 --> 0:32:57.920 gun where you hold the trigger to the rear right 0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:01.120 and the gun continues to fire. It's sort of you 0:33:01.160 --> 0:33:03.240 can look up. I think it's probably much easier if 0:33:03.240 --> 0:33:04.800 you can see it. But it's kind of a device 0:33:04.880 --> 0:33:08.200 that connects the stock and then the pistol grip of 0:33:08.200 --> 0:33:10.680 the weapon, and then it bounces back and forward, and 0:33:10.680 --> 0:33:13.000 in doing so moves the finger back and forward. You 0:33:13.040 --> 0:33:17.960 can also bump fire a gun without one, which is 0:33:17.960 --> 0:33:20.680 just I just don't want to describe how to do that, 0:33:21.160 --> 0:33:24.640 but if you probably know already, there are videos on 0:33:24.680 --> 0:33:26.719 YouTube like like, it's not not a thing that's illegal, 0:33:26.760 --> 0:33:29.480 I don't think, but neither of these are particularly effective. 0:33:29.520 --> 0:33:32.800 It's kind of a range toy thing, like it's a 0:33:32.800 --> 0:33:37.360 way to quickly turn money into noise. I don't think that. 0:33:37.520 --> 0:33:40.000 Like they were massive craze, like a lot of these 0:33:40.040 --> 0:33:42.760 gun things right there, there are like five big accounts 0:33:42.760 --> 0:33:46.720 on YouTube, which set the fact that whatever they're craze, Like, 0:33:46.800 --> 0:33:50.800 gun people are very much like like like preteens, you know, 0:33:50.960 --> 0:33:53.280 you know, when you're in school and suddenly everyone's got 0:33:53.280 --> 0:33:55.040 a fucking yoyo and if you don't have a yo yo, 0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:57.920 you're a complete weave and then fuck your yoyo. It's 0:33:57.960 --> 0:34:00.720 Pokemon cards. Yeah, that's the that's a lot of the 0:34:00.720 --> 0:34:04.200 firearms industry. So like these were a big craze and 0:34:04.240 --> 0:34:06.400 then they kind of weren't, and specifically when when the 0:34:06.440 --> 0:34:08.480 Donald Trump ATF banned them, right, a lot of people 0:34:08.480 --> 0:34:09.759 were like, oh, you don't need them any way. They 0:34:09.800 --> 0:34:12.799 find that they're they're useless. Like they definitely allow you 0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:14.600 to fire fire quicker, and you can have the gun 0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:16.359 in your in your shoulder, which you can't do when 0:34:16.360 --> 0:34:19.799 you're regularly bump firing it, but they're not. It's not 0:34:19.840 --> 0:34:22.399 the same as a machine gun in terms of effectiveness 0:34:22.400 --> 0:34:25.799 in my opinion. So yeah, now you can buy one 0:34:25.840 --> 0:34:28.480 again if you really want one. In certain states. I'm 0:34:28.520 --> 0:34:31.120 sure that there are state laws. I'm sure California still 0:34:31.120 --> 0:34:35.279 bands him, but well you can't have a pistol grip 0:34:35.320 --> 0:34:38.040 on your semi automatic rifle in California unless it's mad glove. 0:34:38.160 --> 0:34:41.560 But yeah, I don't think it's a big deal, Like 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:44.279 I'm looking right now, and of course, like you know 0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:46.399 NBC and ship, it's like the end of the world 0:34:46.480 --> 0:34:48.919 is nigh. Everyone now has a belt fed machine gun. 0:34:49.360 --> 0:34:51.759 Not really, it's not. That's not kind of what they do. 0:34:51.800 --> 0:34:55.359 You can fire faster, but I don't think it's it's 0:34:55.360 --> 0:34:58.960 going to make a meaningful change in the lethality of firearms, 0:34:58.960 --> 0:35:01.200 and civilians have access to Some couple use it as 0:35:01.200 --> 0:35:04.360 an excuse to be to be a fucking coward like 0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:07.160 they were a uvalde, right, But we can't control that. 0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:10.440 I think it does signal, like post Bruin, right, which 0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:14.439 was a concealed, carried decision, a willingness of the court 0:35:14.480 --> 0:35:15.960 to go after the ATF. 0:35:16.320 --> 0:35:16.760 They didn't. 0:35:17.120 --> 0:35:19.080 There's a thing called I think it's called a Chevron 0:35:19.680 --> 0:35:24.000 It's not a Chevron rule. Is it a Chevron doctrine? 0:35:24.239 --> 0:35:28.160 Chevron doctrine, right, Yeah, where like essentially that they they're 0:35:28.200 --> 0:35:31.960 telling lower courts not to challenge legislatives or like opinions. 0:35:32.120 --> 0:35:34.360 The ATF is not itself a law making body, but 0:35:34.400 --> 0:35:37.560 it can appine on what laws mean, but those can 0:35:37.640 --> 0:35:40.960 be challenged in courts. They didn't touch the Chevron doctrine 0:35:41.000 --> 0:35:44.640 with regards to the ATF here, but I think we 0:35:44.760 --> 0:35:49.040 will see other cases. Three D printed gun cases, for instance, 0:35:49.120 --> 0:35:50.920 go up to a Supreme Court and probably get a 0:35:50.960 --> 0:35:55.520 favorable decision for gun rights. There's there's, there's this Supreme 0:35:55.600 --> 0:35:57.960 Court and the big ones, the ones that would make 0:35:58.000 --> 0:36:01.280 a meaningful difference at least to people in restricted states, 0:36:01.360 --> 0:36:04.760 would be assault weapons bands like we have in California. 0:36:05.160 --> 0:36:09.120 And magazine capacity bands like we have in California, right, 0:36:09.160 --> 0:36:11.400 So California, a lot of other states limit you to 0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:14.600 ten rounds. California, you kind of have a pistol grape 0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:16.920 on a semi automatic rifle and some other features and 0:36:17.040 --> 0:36:19.880 less the magazines locked to the weapon. It requires disassembly 0:36:19.960 --> 0:36:23.799 to reload. So those would make a meaningful difference to 0:36:23.840 --> 0:36:27.200 gun rights for people in those states. This I think 0:36:27.200 --> 0:36:29.600 is that big of a deal personally, Like, look, look, 0:36:29.640 --> 0:36:31.960 fucking people are all over the place with fully automatic 0:36:32.040 --> 0:36:34.080 locks because they bought a little three printed switch on 0:36:34.600 --> 0:36:38.319 like either online or I like apparently people are buying 0:36:38.360 --> 0:36:42.600 them on the alley Express, which is fucking unwise because 0:36:42.600 --> 0:36:44.680 it's coming into the country and like a customer's going 0:36:44.719 --> 0:36:47.200 to look at that. Yeah, but I've seen that in 0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:50.279 court cases. But yeah, this is not that, you know, 0:36:50.400 --> 0:36:55.239 like people are making auto sears for AAR fifteens or 0:36:55.320 --> 0:36:58.120 court cases about that too. I don't think this is 0:36:58.239 --> 0:36:59.920 that big of a deal, but it may be indicate 0:37:00.480 --> 0:37:04.320 that we will see other other changes in firearm legislation. 0:37:04.760 --> 0:37:06.520 Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's our wrap up 0:37:06.600 --> 0:37:08.640 Supreme Court news. I don't know it's possible some other 0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:12.480 bullshit drops at the end of today. But yeah, this 0:37:12.520 --> 0:37:15.920 has been recorded on Friday, the whatever, the fourteenth, So 0:37:15.920 --> 0:37:17.520 if there's if if, if the Supreme Court has done 0:37:17.560 --> 0:37:19.360 more bullshit, I'm sorry we didn't get to it, but 0:37:19.400 --> 0:37:27.239 that that that's all we got for Supreme Court today. Yeah, Flags, friends, Yeah, 0:37:27.440 --> 0:37:29.680 my fly fly funnier Flags. 0:37:44.440 --> 0:37:47.799 Welcome to it could happen here. I am Sophieleckerman. I 0:37:47.800 --> 0:37:50.280 am the executive producer of all of Cool Zone Media, 0:37:50.440 --> 0:37:53.600 and I didn't have time to touch grass today, so 0:37:54.200 --> 0:37:56.279 this is the closest I'm going to get to that. 0:37:56.840 --> 0:37:59.320 And here with me leading the conversation will be James 0:37:59.320 --> 0:38:02.400 Stout And also here is one of my favorite people 0:38:02.440 --> 0:38:06.480 on this entire planet, Alli Conger, James, take it away. 0:38:06.840 --> 0:38:10.520 Thank you, Sophie. Magnificent intro. As Sophie said, we're here 0:38:10.560 --> 0:38:13.000 today to talk about grass. So no really grass, but 0:38:13.040 --> 0:38:15.120 it just like plants in general. I wanted to do 0:38:15.239 --> 0:38:17.920 an episode on having a little garden because I think 0:38:18.000 --> 0:38:20.920 it is a thing that would make people happy, and 0:38:20.960 --> 0:38:23.839 also it's a way to have food for yourself. It's 0:38:23.880 --> 0:38:26.759 not free, but once the plants keep growing, you don't 0:38:26.760 --> 0:38:28.600 have to pay any more for the food, so it's 0:38:28.640 --> 0:38:30.960 a nice thing to do. I enjoyed to grow plants 0:38:31.000 --> 0:38:33.400 and I wanted to share that with you. Do you 0:38:33.400 --> 0:38:35.480 have little gardens, Molly and Sophie. 0:38:36.480 --> 0:38:40.120 Yes. Oh so, I moved to a new apartment last year, 0:38:40.160 --> 0:38:43.000 and in sort of a rare and strange arrangement, my 0:38:43.120 --> 0:38:46.520 first floor apartment has like a little dirt patch's I 0:38:46.680 --> 0:38:49.000 think it was originally supposed to be where the HVAC 0:38:49.120 --> 0:38:51.399 units are, because it's like walled off by this sort 0:38:51.400 --> 0:38:54.319 of tall wall. It's this ten foot by ten foot pit, 0:38:54.880 --> 0:38:56.960 but the HVAC units are not there. So that's where 0:38:56.960 --> 0:38:57.960 I grow my tomatoes. 0:38:59.040 --> 0:39:03.040 Yeah, or is currently a fruit garden. I have a 0:39:03.120 --> 0:39:08.080 bunch of things starting in pots. I've got a lemon tree. 0:39:08.360 --> 0:39:10.799 I've got a mandarin tree, which I'm really excited about. 0:39:10.800 --> 0:39:13.160 I grew a mandarin tree when I lived in California 0:39:13.680 --> 0:39:16.080 and then gifted to my dad and then he gifted 0:39:16.080 --> 0:39:18.839 it to a friend of his and it's still doing 0:39:18.880 --> 0:39:21.960 really well, so that's nice. I have a boys and 0:39:22.000 --> 0:39:24.920 berry plant. I have what did I just buy? I'm 0:39:24.960 --> 0:39:27.759 trying to think I just bought another fruit thing. Oh, 0:39:27.840 --> 0:39:31.040 it's like some citrus hybrid thing. So My porch is 0:39:31.640 --> 0:39:34.759 filled with fruit things that should live for a very 0:39:34.800 --> 0:39:41.040 long time. And then my friend Sarah is on a 0:39:41.200 --> 0:39:44.799 gardening kick and so anything else we grow in her 0:39:44.880 --> 0:39:49.319 yard and she's growing literally everything that's good. 0:39:49.360 --> 0:39:52.840 Love to grow everything. Yeah, so if you want to 0:39:52.840 --> 0:39:54.879 grow everything, if you're listening and you're thinking, I would 0:39:54.960 --> 0:39:58.600 like to be like Sophia money and grow vegetables and trees. 0:39:58.800 --> 0:40:00.720 Trees are hid, especially if you're a renter. 0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:04.160 Yeah, you have to start them in a pot and 0:40:04.160 --> 0:40:07.319 then depending on climate, I bring mine inside during the 0:40:07.360 --> 0:40:09.480 cool times and I have them under a grow bulb. 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:12.440 It's not a quick commitment. 0:40:13.160 --> 0:40:15.840 No, Yeah, it is an undertaking. And yeah, if you 0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:18.360 want to let them grow big, then you either have 0:40:18.360 --> 0:40:20.959 to get giant pots or put them in the ground. 0:40:21.040 --> 0:40:22.160 Did they put them in the ground? 0:40:22.200 --> 0:40:24.279 Which is hard when most people in this country can't 0:40:24.280 --> 0:40:25.400 afford to buy a home. 0:40:25.440 --> 0:40:27.680 Yes, it is. It sucks. And then you don't want 0:40:27.680 --> 0:40:30.000 to be giving things to your landlord for free because 0:40:30.160 --> 0:40:33.400 fucking yeah. Well, let's talk about things that you can 0:40:33.520 --> 0:40:36.680 do in a smaller timeframe than trees. So I've just 0:40:36.760 --> 0:40:38.279 got a few bullet points here. We're going to go 0:40:38.320 --> 0:40:41.480 through them and you can interrupt me with your experiences 0:40:41.600 --> 0:40:43.520 or question, should you have any, But if you're making 0:40:43.520 --> 0:40:45.520 a little guiden for yourself, obviously you're going to have 0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:47.960 to start out with choosing a spot for your garden. 0:40:48.400 --> 0:40:51.279 And it depends, I think, on where you live. So 0:40:51.400 --> 0:40:53.680 if you're like on the fifth floor and you don't 0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:58.439 have access to any ground yard garden soil, that could 0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:02.560 be your windowsill, right, it could be your balcony if 0:41:02.560 --> 0:41:05.320 you have a balcony. All you really need is somewhere 0:41:05.360 --> 0:41:07.480 that has good access to sunlight. All the other stuff 0:41:07.520 --> 0:41:08.480 you can bring in yourself. 0:41:08.520 --> 0:41:08.680 Right. 0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:11.279 You can bring the soil yourself, You can bring the 0:41:11.360 --> 0:41:13.520 water and all the nutrients that your plants need. But 0:41:13.560 --> 0:41:16.200 obviously I guess you could make the sunlight. In my kitchen, 0:41:16.200 --> 0:41:18.879 I have a little arrow garden which has its own 0:41:18.920 --> 0:41:21.360 little UV light bulb, and you can use those to 0:41:21.360 --> 0:41:25.160 grow some stuff. Or people have maybe some other hydroponic 0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:27.840 gardening experience. They have done. 0:41:28.000 --> 0:41:29.799 Elaborate setups for their tomatoes. 0:41:30.080 --> 0:41:32.440 Yeah, do you remember that. I think it was like 0:41:33.840 --> 0:41:37.200 twenty nineteen when everybody's relative gave them one of those 0:41:37.239 --> 0:41:40.240 like indoor herb garden kits that don't oh the arrow garden. 0:41:40.320 --> 0:41:41.360 Yeah, yah, the air garden. 0:41:41.440 --> 0:41:42.560 I have one of those. They work. 0:41:42.800 --> 0:41:45.520 No no, no, no no, not the expensive arrow garden one, 0:41:45.520 --> 0:41:46.480 but the knockoff ones. 0:41:46.520 --> 0:41:47.560 Everybody doesn't want to one. 0:41:47.840 --> 0:41:51.160 Yeah, everybody got one of those, and then you saw 0:41:51.200 --> 0:41:52.440 them elsewhere. 0:41:53.080 --> 0:41:55.439 And that sort of commodification is so silly, right, because 0:41:55.480 --> 0:41:57.439 to grow like a little pot of basil, you don't 0:41:57.480 --> 0:42:00.680 need stuff. You don't need to buy a thing windowsill. 0:42:01.520 --> 0:42:04.520 I can't grow basil. I really we're not compatible. 0:42:04.600 --> 0:42:05.040 Interesting. 0:42:05.120 --> 0:42:08.239 I love basil. I use it constantly. I try to 0:42:08.280 --> 0:42:09.919 grow it. I kill it every time. 0:42:10.800 --> 0:42:11.960 What way is it dying? 0:42:13.080 --> 0:42:14.000 It just wilts. 0:42:14.520 --> 0:42:16.480 Basil doesn't like its feet in the water. It has 0:42:16.480 --> 0:42:18.200 to have quite dry soil. 0:42:18.680 --> 0:42:20.640 It wilts. So then I'll try again and i'll ignore it. 0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:23.360 It wilts. I'll try it again, and i'll give it 0:42:23.360 --> 0:42:25.279 a little bit of water. It wilts. I'll try it again. 0:42:25.320 --> 0:42:27.919 I'll give it a lot of water. It wilts. I'll 0:42:27.960 --> 0:42:30.960 try it again, and I guess how it ends. 0:42:30.960 --> 0:42:31.360 It wilt. 0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:34.560 I have an abundance of it because I'm constantly topping it. 0:42:34.600 --> 0:42:36.279 Because you want to top your basil all the time 0:42:36.600 --> 0:42:38.440 so that it branches instead of flowering. So when I 0:42:38.480 --> 0:42:40.120 top it, I'm like, why, I don't want to waste this. 0:42:40.160 --> 0:42:41.919 I'll root these and I have, like, you know, seven 0:42:42.000 --> 0:42:42.760 hundred basils. 0:42:43.320 --> 0:42:43.799 Well it's me. 0:42:44.520 --> 0:42:46.440 Maybe Molly could send one to Sophie and we could see. 0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:48.120 Yeah, you're welcome to some of my basil. 0:42:48.520 --> 0:42:51.279 Yeah, because pesto's one of the greatest things that's ever 0:42:51.360 --> 0:42:52.839 happened to anybody. 0:42:53.320 --> 0:42:55.319 Mm hm Oh you need this a little pine nut, 0:42:55.480 --> 0:42:57.959 pine tree, I guess, and some basil and a little 0:42:58.000 --> 0:43:01.120 sheep and you can make pecorino cheese. There you go, 0:43:01.280 --> 0:43:02.719 and then yeah, and some manchovies. 0:43:02.800 --> 0:43:05.080 Of course, you just need your own sheep. 0:43:05.480 --> 0:43:06.920 Yeah, everyone should have. 0:43:07.040 --> 0:43:10.080 Well, Anderson would have the best time hurting one. 0:43:09.920 --> 0:43:14.480 Sheep that the poor sheep were probably not. 0:43:15.239 --> 0:43:18.600 I pictured it. It's really funny. 0:43:18.960 --> 0:43:21.280 You can't just have one sheep. They need friends. Sheep 0:43:21.280 --> 0:43:23.520 are not a solitary animal, so yeah, you'd have to 0:43:23.520 --> 0:43:24.040 go several. 0:43:24.719 --> 0:43:26.480 Well, Anderson will hurt them all. 0:43:26.760 --> 0:43:29.399 Yeah, we'd love to see that. All right. So if 0:43:29.400 --> 0:43:32.480 you've selected your spot right where you have access to sunlight, 0:43:32.960 --> 0:43:35.640 the next thing you need is a vessel. So during COVID, 0:43:35.719 --> 0:43:38.719 lots of people started gardens. Not that we are not 0:43:38.800 --> 0:43:41.480 also in COVID right now, right, but during the lockdown 0:43:41.880 --> 0:43:45.160 twenty twenty, when everyone was working from home for the 0:43:45.160 --> 0:43:48.359 first time, people started their little guidance, and I think 0:43:48.640 --> 0:43:51.440 lots of folks who didn't start back then or you 0:43:51.480 --> 0:43:54.480 moved house since then, Like people just built lots of planters, 0:43:54.640 --> 0:43:58.560 often in that area between the pavement and the road, 0:43:59.400 --> 0:44:01.080 which has an that I've forgotten. Now. 0:44:01.320 --> 0:44:02.840 Oh, that's one of those things that has a different 0:44:02.920 --> 0:44:05.359 name in every region of the US, and wherever you go, 0:44:05.600 --> 0:44:07.360 if you're calling it the wrong thing, people look at 0:44:07.400 --> 0:44:08.400 you like you're an alien. 0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:10.960 Yeah, I don't know what that's called in California. 0:44:11.760 --> 0:44:14.120 I think in New Jersey they call it the Devil's Strip. 0:44:15.200 --> 0:44:15.680 For real. 0:44:15.960 --> 0:44:17.520 I'm pretty sure we're going to. 0:44:17.560 --> 0:44:19.399 Call it the devil Strip in this podcast because that's 0:44:19.400 --> 0:44:22.359 a better name than I could come up with. If 0:44:22.360 --> 0:44:24.520 you're gardening in the Devil's Strip, that sounds like a 0:44:24.560 --> 0:44:27.440 euphemism for growing weed, like when people call it the 0:44:27.480 --> 0:44:31.640 Devil's Letters. Yeah, you're growing your Devil's letters and the 0:44:31.640 --> 0:44:33.720 Devil Strip. That's a good place to build a planter, 0:44:33.880 --> 0:44:37.480 right generally, like you should be able to obtain lumber 0:44:37.520 --> 0:44:39.200 for that somewhere like, I don't think you should be 0:44:39.200 --> 0:44:41.279 paying for lumber in this day and age. Yeah, and 0:44:41.280 --> 0:44:44.400 they're pretty easy to build, right if you are building 0:44:44.440 --> 0:44:49.640 a planter some considerations, you probably shouldn't stain the inside 0:44:49.800 --> 0:44:52.160 of the lumber that you're using. There's stuff in there 0:44:52.160 --> 0:44:53.640 that you probably don't want it if you intend to 0:44:53.680 --> 0:44:56.080 eat the plants. I think it's a pretty bad idea. 0:44:56.480 --> 0:44:59.440 Or to get lumber which is pre treated. Right, if 0:44:59.480 --> 0:45:02.600 you get some think which is naturally resistant to rotting, 0:45:02.680 --> 0:45:05.000 like a hot like redwood or something like that, that's 0:45:05.000 --> 0:45:06.440 going to last a bit longer, right. 0:45:07.160 --> 0:45:09.239 Yeah, I mean you should be able to find some 0:45:09.360 --> 0:45:12.080 kind of cedar or redwood around. I agree with your 0:45:12.120 --> 0:45:14.920 assessment that you should not have to pay for that. Yeah, 0:45:14.960 --> 0:45:17.319 although it's not something that if you have like a 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:21.560 good local hardware store, it's not something that's super expensive. 0:45:21.640 --> 0:45:23.960 But price it before you buy it, that is what 0:45:24.000 --> 0:45:24.480 I'll say. 0:45:24.880 --> 0:45:27.160 And it's certainly cheaper to just buy the wood than 0:45:27.200 --> 0:45:29.400 it is to buy like a pre made wooden plant. 0:45:29.480 --> 0:45:29.840 Yeah. 0:45:29.880 --> 0:45:31.919 The mark upon that is crazy. 0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:34.960 Incredibly overpriced for something that you would find at a 0:45:34.960 --> 0:45:35.800 big box store. 0:45:36.200 --> 0:45:38.839 Yeah. And crap too, there was one in one place 0:45:38.880 --> 0:45:40.680 I live that was like maybe a quarter of an 0:45:40.760 --> 0:45:43.600 inch thick, and like it dovetailed together, but then like 0:45:44.000 --> 0:45:48.120 the dovetails kind of bulged out when they got too 0:45:48.120 --> 0:45:50.919 wet and it was not a good figure. Don't don't 0:45:50.920 --> 0:45:53.840 buy one, build one. If you have decking screws in 0:45:53.960 --> 0:45:56.880 two by fours, you can build your own planetary. Doesn't 0:45:56.920 --> 0:46:00.239 degree require a high level of carpentry knowledge. And you're 0:46:00.239 --> 0:46:02.279 gonna have to put some soil in your planter, right, 0:46:02.360 --> 0:46:05.319 You could grow plants in like leka likers like the 0:46:05.680 --> 0:46:09.440 clay composite. Have you seen this little balls? Yeah, but 0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:11.920 I think I have. Yeah, just to start off with, 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:14.719 we'll we'll start with soil because it's the easiest thing 0:46:14.760 --> 0:46:18.120 to access. I think in lots of cities you can 0:46:18.160 --> 0:46:21.239 get free compost if you go to the tip. I 0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:23.239 don't know if that's the case where you guys live, 0:46:23.360 --> 0:46:25.520 but here you can get free compust if you go 0:46:25.560 --> 0:46:26.000 to the tip. 0:46:26.280 --> 0:46:30.000 I'm unfamiliar with that, but now I'm like, wait, can 0:46:30.040 --> 0:46:31.600 we do that because we should? 0:46:31.760 --> 0:46:31.880 Right? 0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:33.960 Have I been missing out on free dirt because I've 0:46:34.120 --> 0:46:35.240 I've been paying for dirt? 0:46:35.360 --> 0:46:38.360 Okay, Yeah, this is a huge life act. Do you 0:46:38.400 --> 0:46:42.000 have those green bins where you put like compostable rubbish. 0:46:42.040 --> 0:46:43.439 Of course, Oh no, we don't. 0:46:43.719 --> 0:46:45.560 So if he lives in Portland, yeah, I like I 0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:47.680 live in Portland, of course. Okay, So if you have that, 0:46:47.760 --> 0:46:51.239 I'm guessing your municipality is composting it, right, which would 0:46:51.280 --> 0:46:53.640 mean that it has a large amount of compost, at 0:46:53.680 --> 0:46:56.600 least in San Diego. I would be blown away if 0:46:56.640 --> 0:47:00.000 San Diego was leading the way and giving residents any 0:47:00.120 --> 0:47:03.360 think other than more cops for their taxpayer dollars, we 0:47:03.440 --> 0:47:05.319 can get free. I have a pickup truck. I think 0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:08.600 I can get too pick up trucks full of compost. 0:47:09.160 --> 0:47:10.960 You have to go and shovel it yourself right into 0:47:11.000 --> 0:47:13.080 your truck, and obviously you have to have some kind 0:47:13.120 --> 0:47:16.399 of vehicle to transport it. But it's a good way 0:47:16.400 --> 0:47:19.239 to get free soil, especially if you're like doing a project. Often, 0:47:19.280 --> 0:47:21.800 if you're planting vegetables in your garden, right, the soil 0:47:21.800 --> 0:47:24.720 that you're planting them into might not be good quality 0:47:24.760 --> 0:47:26.640 top soil, right. That top soil might have been taken 0:47:26.680 --> 0:47:29.839 away when you're building's constructed, or you might have all 0:47:29.920 --> 0:47:32.759 kinds of aggregate waste sort of mixed in there right, 0:47:32.800 --> 0:47:34.680 gravel and stuff like that, it might not be the 0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:37.560 best quality growing soil. So if you can going to 0:47:37.640 --> 0:47:40.479 getting some of the free compost is the move. What 0:47:40.719 --> 0:47:43.120 I like to do when I'm starting a little garden 0:47:43.280 --> 0:47:46.000 and I've got my soil is to do a soil 0:47:46.080 --> 0:47:49.240 chemistry test. Have you guys done soil chemistry tests? 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:49.759 I have. 0:47:50.239 --> 0:47:54.640 My style of gardening is more just kind of vibing out, okay. 0:47:54.840 --> 0:47:59.279 More of a violides based hey Portland. As free compost is. 0:48:00.800 --> 0:48:03.960 I get information overload really fast. When I first started 0:48:03.960 --> 0:48:06.000 my little garden, I thought like, I'm go do some googling. 0:48:06.000 --> 0:48:07.440 I'm gonna do some researching. I'm gonna go to the 0:48:07.480 --> 0:48:10.400 Agricultural Extension website and learn about my local soil. And 0:48:10.400 --> 0:48:13.279 then like, once i have seventy tabs open and I'm 0:48:13.320 --> 0:48:15.279 trying to consume the information, I was like, you know what, 0:48:15.880 --> 0:48:18.719 plants grow outside. They'll be fine, They'll be fine. 0:48:18.800 --> 0:48:19.360 It is true. 0:48:19.480 --> 0:48:21.000 There is a lot you can do and a lot 0:48:21.040 --> 0:48:22.800 that you don't have to do when it comes to 0:48:22.880 --> 0:48:26.120 gre own cliants. My mother was a lecture in agricultural Therefore, 0:48:26.120 --> 0:48:28.400 I'm bound to get a little home test kit and 0:48:28.480 --> 0:48:31.040 test today do you know what the three essential nutrients are? 0:48:31.360 --> 0:48:33.920 We turn it into a quiz format for plants. 0:48:34.520 --> 0:48:40.800 Nitrogen, yeah, a different element. 0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:46.600 That's correct. H These are things, These are real things. 0:48:46.960 --> 0:48:52.400 All I can think of is fat, that's right, salt, fat, acid, heat. 0:48:54.400 --> 0:48:56.799 If your plant isn't hitting its macros, it will not 0:48:56.840 --> 0:48:59.560 get swollen exactly. One of the things about. 0:48:59.400 --> 0:49:00.960 I'm feeding much imatos creatine? 0:49:01.000 --> 0:49:01.439 Is that right? 0:49:01.560 --> 0:49:01.759 Yeah? 0:49:01.840 --> 0:49:03.560 Yeah, that's why they're hench as fun. 0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:05.200 Are we talking like magnesium? 0:49:06.040 --> 0:49:09.360 Close? U? That two is an element? 0:49:09.440 --> 0:49:11.440 I had nitrogen though, that's right, Yeah. 0:49:11.360 --> 0:49:16.040 Molly is yeah, Muddy got that one right. I was 0:49:16.080 --> 0:49:17.560 trying to do it like a ratio. I couldn't work 0:49:17.560 --> 0:49:17.839 it out. 0:49:18.200 --> 0:49:22.120 Nitrogen phosphorus, Okay, I was like almost there. 0:49:22.440 --> 0:49:24.280 Yeah, you're very close with magnesia. 0:49:24.360 --> 0:49:26.680 Are you growing a gardener blowing up a federal building? 0:49:26.760 --> 0:49:31.400 James Porque, Nola's do Molly, I'm growing a guarden for 0:49:31.520 --> 0:49:35.560 legal and truth based reasons. I'm growing a guard You 0:49:35.600 --> 0:49:39.960 want nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Those are your three essential nutrients. 0:49:39.960 --> 0:49:43.120 There are fifteen other nkroen nutrients. I guess that plants 0:49:43.120 --> 0:49:47.759 need vitamins. Yeah, the little you know omega threes for 0:49:47.840 --> 0:49:51.160 their joints. They need MP and K in different ratios 0:49:51.160 --> 0:49:52.240 depending on different plants. 0:49:52.280 --> 0:49:57.799 Right, Molly and I are like, we're here to talk 0:49:57.800 --> 0:50:02.200 about plants. Why are we in chemistry? What's happening? 0:50:02.280 --> 0:50:05.960 James? I buy a bag that says Tomato food and 0:50:06.000 --> 0:50:08.640 there's a picture of a cartoon tomato on it. That's 0:50:08.640 --> 0:50:09.600 what I know you're doing. 0:50:09.640 --> 0:50:09.920 Great. 0:50:10.360 --> 0:50:12.200 You can't go wrong with looking at the picture on 0:50:12.239 --> 0:50:14.800 the thing. I use this technique for all kinds of things. 0:50:15.000 --> 0:50:17.640 It's why I don't buy Quaker oats anymore. Very disturbing. 0:50:30.560 --> 0:50:33.640 So you're going to seek to have the soil chemistry 0:50:33.680 --> 0:50:36.080 that suits the plants that you want to grow. Right, 0:50:36.239 --> 0:50:38.000 You can't really like improve your soil unless you know 0:50:38.040 --> 0:50:39.640 where you're starting from. So you're going to look at 0:50:39.680 --> 0:50:43.000 the NPK and the pH and then going from there. 0:50:43.040 --> 0:50:46.400 When you're buying commercial fertilizers, you can normally see the 0:50:46.400 --> 0:50:48.480 balance or sit on the bag or sit on the website, right, 0:50:48.520 --> 0:50:50.680 and you're trying to augment that soil to get the 0:50:50.680 --> 0:50:53.560 soil chemistry you want to grow the plants that you 0:50:53.600 --> 0:50:56.080 want to eat, or maybe not eat, maybe just have. 0:50:56.840 --> 0:50:59.160 You can also add organic matters to your soil. If 0:50:59.160 --> 0:51:01.319 you're doing that, like, you're just gonna have to like 0:51:01.520 --> 0:51:05.000 test and test again kind of think, because when your cowshits, 0:51:05.239 --> 0:51:07.560 you don't get a bag which then gives you the 0:51:07.560 --> 0:51:09.520 amount of nightgen phosphorus and potassium. 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:12.440 That's why I buy the cowshit in a bag. 0:51:12.600 --> 0:51:15.440 James, Wow, that's a great business idea. 0:51:15.520 --> 0:51:16.480 No, they sell it a lows. 0:51:16.680 --> 0:51:19.400 They said it lows cowshit in a bag. Okay, maybe 0:51:19.440 --> 0:51:22.680 that is a wonderful time to take a break for advertisements. 0:51:22.960 --> 0:51:24.800 Hopefully one of the advertisers is Shit. 0:51:24.640 --> 0:51:27.200 In the Bag, Shit in a Bag. Longtime supporter of 0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:29.360 the show, I please enjoy this advert for shit in 0:51:29.360 --> 0:51:40.759 the Bag. We are back. We've returned from discussing things 0:51:41.080 --> 0:51:43.879 that we could pretend we're shit in a bag, which 0:51:43.880 --> 0:51:46.640 we're not going to share with you. You'll have to guess. Okay, 0:51:46.760 --> 0:51:49.120 So I like to use chicken manure for mine, but 0:51:49.160 --> 0:51:50.799 you do have to rot it down right. If you're 0:51:50.800 --> 0:51:53.360 putting manure on your soil, it'll burn it if you 0:51:53.400 --> 0:51:55.120 just dump it straight on there. You can't just literally 0:51:55.200 --> 0:51:58.080 dump shit into your soil. This hopefully is not used 0:51:58.080 --> 0:51:58.560 to anyone. 0:51:59.080 --> 0:52:00.560 Got to age it like a fire. Wine. 0:52:00.719 --> 0:52:04.120 Yeah, exactly. It does improve with age. Buttlet up, cork 0:52:04.200 --> 0:52:07.000 it and put a vintage on it and then rotate 0:52:07.040 --> 0:52:08.840 it every few years so it doesn't get sediment in 0:52:08.840 --> 0:52:11.040 the bottom. If you can get a compost here and 0:52:11.040 --> 0:52:12.680 you can go after making your own compust, it's a 0:52:12.680 --> 0:52:14.360 fun thing to do. You get one of the barrel 0:52:14.360 --> 0:52:15.399 composters that you turn. 0:52:16.120 --> 0:52:16.799 I have one of those. 0:52:16.880 --> 0:52:17.839 Yeah, oh yeah. 0:52:18.000 --> 0:52:20.120 Because my dirt patch is like not really supposed to 0:52:20.120 --> 0:52:21.439 be a garden. I don't have a lot of room 0:52:21.560 --> 0:52:24.279 for a compost. Heap love a compost, eat better way 0:52:24.280 --> 0:52:26.520 to do it. But because I just have patio space, 0:52:26.600 --> 0:52:29.200 and I have one of those big plastic compost tumblers, 0:52:29.600 --> 0:52:32.000 and I love it. It works pretty good, pretty fast. 0:52:32.600 --> 0:52:35.400 I was lucky enough last year. This was not intentional. 0:52:35.480 --> 0:52:38.280 I did not invite them. But I have black soldier 0:52:38.320 --> 0:52:42.520 flies in my compost. Do you know those little guys? Hmm, 0:52:42.760 --> 0:52:46.680 they're like pretty long, shiny black flies. But their larva 0:52:47.280 --> 0:52:49.640 are these like little grubs, And so I open my compost, 0:52:49.640 --> 0:52:51.160 it was like, who the hell are all these grubs? 0:52:51.920 --> 0:52:55.600 But black soldier fly larva just devour organic matter and 0:52:55.640 --> 0:52:58.160 so they break down They break down your compost really fast. 0:52:59.160 --> 0:53:00.880 I love them so much that I just bought some 0:53:01.600 --> 0:53:03.759 he gave in the mail today. I got a box 0:53:03.800 --> 0:53:06.320 in the mail today that said, like caution, live bugs. 0:53:07.360 --> 0:53:09.120 I dump dump tho little babies in my tumbler. 0:53:09.760 --> 0:53:11.600 Nice. Yeah, hope they thrive there. 0:53:12.400 --> 0:53:13.520 Oh yeah, they love it in there. 0:53:13.800 --> 0:53:15.680 Yeah. We had some love I didn't know what they were, 0:53:15.719 --> 0:53:17.960 but we had a compost heat that I moved a 0:53:17.960 --> 0:53:20.560 couple of years ago. When I moved it, the chickens 0:53:20.560 --> 0:53:23.919 had probably the best day of it, just chasing around people. 0:53:24.080 --> 0:53:26.759 Farm Black Soldier fly as chicken feed so that you 0:53:26.760 --> 0:53:28.560 can have this coole setup where you're growing them on 0:53:28.600 --> 0:53:30.279 purpose and then they sort of fall down the tray 0:53:30.280 --> 0:53:33.800 and the chickens eat them. I don't have any chickens yet. 0:53:34.239 --> 0:53:37.920 I think my apartment neighbors would not like that. 0:53:39.840 --> 0:53:43.920 Fuck fuck them moneys to play rage against the machine 0:53:43.960 --> 0:53:45.359 as you install your chicken cube. 0:53:45.760 --> 0:53:47.960 I mean the dogs would love it. Buck has met 0:53:47.960 --> 0:53:49.920 a chicken before, and in his mind it is like 0:53:50.080 --> 0:53:53.600 the rawest chicken, right, Like this is the most tempting. 0:53:53.200 --> 0:53:57.640 Treat of the forbidden dog treat, the raw nugget. Yeah, 0:53:57.680 --> 0:53:59.319 and then they give chickens could be pretty mean. 0:53:59.440 --> 0:54:03.480 Hey, Reese, featherspoon is a national treasure. 0:54:05.040 --> 0:54:07.880 Yeah, raised featherspoon is. She is not a mean chicken. 0:54:07.960 --> 0:54:10.240 She was just sitting on my lap earlier before we recorded. 0:54:10.320 --> 0:54:13.160 She sees a friendly chicken. She does. So if there 0:54:13.239 --> 0:54:16.359 is blood on me, she will attack even me her 0:54:16.400 --> 0:54:19.960 father and friend. So if you don't have any manure, 0:54:20.000 --> 0:54:20.760 that's fine. 0:54:20.880 --> 0:54:23.080 You can make your own dirt at home. I recommend it. 0:54:23.080 --> 0:54:23.479 It's great. 0:54:23.840 --> 0:54:26.240 Yeah, you can. It's very fulfilling to take like waste 0:54:26.280 --> 0:54:28.520 and turn it into something useful. You can do it 0:54:28.560 --> 0:54:31.040 on a city scale like Portland does, or you can 0:54:31.080 --> 0:54:33.600 do it on a home scale, which is fun and 0:54:33.640 --> 0:54:35.840 it's always nice to you know, reduce your amount of 0:54:35.840 --> 0:54:37.840 shit there, especially if they don't compost, Like if you 0:54:37.840 --> 0:54:40.640 don't have a green bin. It's less shit going into landfa, 0:54:40.760 --> 0:54:43.839 isn't it. So that's always a good thing. So now 0:54:43.920 --> 0:54:46.400 you've you've got your vessel and you've got your soil, 0:54:46.800 --> 0:54:49.040 and you're going to have to decide about your plants. Right. 0:54:49.480 --> 0:54:52.799 One great resource to consult it's a USDA Plant Hardiness matter. 0:54:53.080 --> 0:54:55.320 Have you guys been browsy. 0:54:55.239 --> 0:54:55.919 Know your zone? 0:54:56.040 --> 0:54:57.439 Baby m yep? 0:54:57.760 --> 0:55:00.480 You have to or else you could just be committing 0:55:00.640 --> 0:55:01.400 plant masker. 0:55:01.480 --> 0:55:03.279 I mean there's a lot of debate right now in 0:55:03.320 --> 0:55:06.200 the in the community about the rezoning, the rezone, the 0:55:06.320 --> 0:55:09.319 USDA Plant Hardiness Map. Yeah, Like my mom buys all 0:55:09.360 --> 0:55:11.480 of her bulbs from this bulb farm and they put 0:55:11.480 --> 0:55:14.160 out a notice saying like, we are not using the 0:55:14.239 --> 0:55:17.560 revised map or we're sticking the original, We're not changing 0:55:17.560 --> 0:55:18.120 the catalog. 0:55:18.320 --> 0:55:20.880 Yeah, being a trad but for the USDA. 0:55:20.520 --> 0:55:23.280 Plant return to tradition. 0:55:23.640 --> 0:55:29.040 Yeah, I'm a USDA Plant hardness believer. And the climate 0:55:29.080 --> 0:55:31.680 is changing, so the ship that your grandparents grow might 0:55:31.680 --> 0:55:33.880 not work for you if you have colder winters, especially 0:55:33.920 --> 0:55:35.920 right if the winter's getting colder where you are, that 0:55:36.000 --> 0:55:39.319 might be difficult for your plants. Yeah, so consult that map. 0:55:39.400 --> 0:55:41.480 The map isn't going to tell you what to grow 0:55:41.680 --> 0:55:43.920 so much as what can make it through your winters, 0:55:44.600 --> 0:55:47.840 and so it's a good place to start. You're also 0:55:47.880 --> 0:55:51.560 going to want to think about plants that you can 0:55:51.600 --> 0:55:53.919 fit into your space. Right. If you want to grow 0:55:53.960 --> 0:55:56.560 yourself as sequoia, that's cool, but you know, if you're 0:55:56.600 --> 0:55:58.680 operating with a balcony, it's probably not going to be 0:55:58.760 --> 0:56:01.319 Maybe you can make a bond size coir that that 0:56:01.480 --> 0:56:04.239 was your thing, but you needed to plant that will 0:56:04.280 --> 0:56:07.279 fit with your space, right, definitely, If you want to 0:56:07.280 --> 0:56:09.279 grow plants that you want to eat, think about things 0:56:09.280 --> 0:56:12.560 that are high yielding, right, and perpetual spinach is a 0:56:12.560 --> 0:56:15.560 great one. If you're like a first timer. Perpetual spinach 0:56:15.560 --> 0:56:17.279 you can cut and come again, so you pick some 0:56:17.480 --> 0:56:19.160 and a bit more cums and bit more cums. You 0:56:19.160 --> 0:56:21.040 don't have to like harvest it all at one time. 0:56:21.560 --> 0:56:23.920 Tomatoes are a classic, right. You can even grow them 0:56:23.960 --> 0:56:26.760 straight in one of those grow bags. Just cut a hole, 0:56:27.160 --> 0:56:29.799 put tomatoes in. If you've got enough depth, you can 0:56:29.880 --> 0:56:34.320 do root vegetables, so things like carrots, turnip, swedes, you 0:56:34.719 --> 0:56:36.759 can get of course potatoes or a classic you can 0:56:36.800 --> 0:56:39.879 make a potato tower if you wanted to. A great 0:56:39.880 --> 0:56:42.560 way to have lots of potatoes in a relatively small space. 0:56:43.320 --> 0:56:46.120 So choose something that will also grow depending on the 0:56:46.160 --> 0:56:49.759 amount of climate window you have. Right, So, if you 0:56:49.800 --> 0:56:51.880 have short summers and you have something that needs a 0:56:51.920 --> 0:56:53.759 lot of sunlight to grow, you want something that will 0:56:53.760 --> 0:56:56.239 grow and mature in the amount of time you have 0:56:56.400 --> 0:56:58.440 right before the weather turns to shit again and it's 0:56:58.480 --> 0:57:01.000 too cold for that plant. Something that's suitable for the 0:57:01.000 --> 0:57:04.160 climate you have. Like I just harvested some winter giant 0:57:04.239 --> 0:57:07.520 spinach because I agree that of the winter and it's 0:57:07.600 --> 0:57:09.920 very hardy and doesn't need quite as much sunlight. That 0:57:10.040 --> 0:57:12.080 was very good. And I'm about to start having my 0:57:12.200 --> 0:57:16.600 early girl tomatoes, which they arrive earlier than you're conventional tomato. 0:57:17.120 --> 0:57:19.680 Like there's a tomato for everything, wherever you are, whatever 0:57:19.720 --> 0:57:21.040 you need, Like, that's a tomato for you. 0:57:21.320 --> 0:57:24.200 It's overwhelming. So like last year, like I said, I'm 0:57:24.240 --> 0:57:25.720 doing this five space, right, So I went to the 0:57:25.720 --> 0:57:27.840 garden store and I just picked out a couple of 0:57:27.840 --> 0:57:29.800 tomato plants that had names like that were funny. 0:57:30.000 --> 0:57:31.560 I think that's a great strategy. 0:57:31.200 --> 0:57:33.400 Right, that's very valid. But this year I was a 0:57:33.400 --> 0:57:36.840 little more selective. Right, So I grew fewer tomatoes this 0:57:36.920 --> 0:57:38.200 year because I think last they were a little too 0:57:38.240 --> 0:57:40.320 close together. It was a little overwhelming, a little busy 0:57:40.360 --> 0:57:42.760 in there. I want to do more cucumbers this year, 0:57:42.800 --> 0:57:45.640 so I only have five tomato plants. I have two 0:57:45.640 --> 0:57:50.040 different cherry tomatoes, have a Cherokee purple. Oh gosh, who 0:57:50.040 --> 0:57:52.520 are the other guys? The other ones were just names 0:57:52.520 --> 0:57:54.760 I thought were interesting. I did it again. But the 0:57:54.800 --> 0:57:57.959 great thing about tomatoes is on the little tag it'll 0:57:58.000 --> 0:58:00.840 say how many days to maturity? Yes, so like you 0:58:00.880 --> 0:58:02.960 don't have to guess, you don't have to do a 0:58:03.000 --> 0:58:05.000 lot of homeworker research. It'll stay right on the tag, 0:58:05.080 --> 0:58:06.880 like eighty five days to harvest. 0:58:07.800 --> 0:58:09.560 Yeah. Going to the garden entry, they're going to sell 0:58:09.600 --> 0:58:12.160 stuff that's suitable for the climate you're living in, right, 0:58:12.640 --> 0:58:14.200 and then yeah, you can see how long it will 0:58:14.240 --> 0:58:16.880 take to harvest. Ideally you could space them out, right, 0:58:16.920 --> 0:58:18.840 so you don't just have a g lot of tomatoes 0:58:18.880 --> 0:58:20.880 and then no tomatoes for the rest of your life 0:58:21.240 --> 0:58:21.800 or the rest. 0:58:21.600 --> 0:58:24.320 Of the year producing, especially if you get indeterminates. 0:58:24.600 --> 0:58:26.640 Yeah, they will keep producing, you can, uh. 0:58:26.600 --> 0:58:29.360 I mean they'll keep producing till the first frost. Yeah, 0:58:29.400 --> 0:58:31.840 so we had cherry tomatoes through November last year. 0:58:31.960 --> 0:58:34.720 Awesome. Wow, I thought you guys got cold. 0:58:34.040 --> 0:58:37.120 We're seven b But Charlotte s Fel's kind of in 0:58:37.200 --> 0:58:39.200 a valley, so it stays warmer a little longer. 0:58:39.720 --> 0:58:42.520 Nice. Yeah, it's San Diego is of course, you can 0:58:42.560 --> 0:58:43.600 almost have this stuff yet. 0:58:43.520 --> 0:58:44.560 Around eternal summer. 0:58:44.760 --> 0:58:47.080 Well, we have winters now. The last two winters have 0:58:47.080 --> 0:58:47.800 been very wet. 0:58:48.080 --> 0:58:50.160 Yeah, I had to have a bit of a learning 0:58:50.240 --> 0:58:54.080 curve coming from California to Oregon within the different climates. 0:58:54.120 --> 0:58:56.400 And I have to say that with the things that 0:58:56.440 --> 0:58:59.000 I had in parts, bringing them inside with girl bulbs 0:58:59.000 --> 0:59:02.440 has been or older weather has been pretty successful for 0:59:02.480 --> 0:59:05.920 me at keeping things alive. Yeah, they're not as fruitful obviously, 0:59:06.440 --> 0:59:08.120 but they do not die. 0:59:08.360 --> 0:59:10.880 Yeah, that's a wind. If you're in Portland or somewhere 0:59:10.880 --> 0:59:13.600 feather North and like you know that your plant won't 0:59:13.600 --> 0:59:15.400 make it through the winter, that's a strategy, right. You 0:59:15.400 --> 0:59:17.240 can have a place set aside, you bring it in. 0:59:17.440 --> 0:59:18.840 You can have a grow bolb. 0:59:18.760 --> 0:59:21.800 And honestly a lot of lamps. They sell bulbs that 0:59:21.840 --> 0:59:23.680 are grow bulbs that can go directly in the lamps 0:59:23.720 --> 0:59:26.520 you already have, so you don't need to buy anything fancy. 0:59:26.720 --> 0:59:29.000 The bulbs are pretty expensive and they're sold at most 0:59:29.000 --> 0:59:32.360 local hardware stores, so you're really spending like five dollars 0:59:32.360 --> 0:59:34.760 on a bowlb instead of spending you know, thirty dollars 0:59:34.760 --> 0:59:36.720 on some fancy contraption. 0:59:37.600 --> 0:59:37.960 Yeah. 0:59:38.200 --> 0:59:39.920 Yeah, my mom has a shoplight. You know, this is 0:59:40.320 --> 0:59:43.760 like a metal lamp seah clip, It's just a cheap 0:59:43.880 --> 0:59:46.360 shoplight that she clips onto a shelf to shine at 0:59:46.360 --> 0:59:48.080 her plants. Her version of oh. 0:59:48.000 --> 0:59:51.960 Yeah, that guy, Sofie's demonstrating audio listeners. 0:59:52.320 --> 0:59:55.640 Her empty nesting has involved a whole grow situation like 0:59:55.640 --> 0:59:57.560 there's no dining room at my parents' house anymore. There's 0:59:57.560 --> 0:59:59.520 nowhere for us to eat when we go home to 0:59:59.600 --> 1:00:03.000 the dining is a greenhouse. I love like tropical plants 1:00:03.360 --> 1:00:05.440 that have to live inside in the winter. She's got 1:00:05.440 --> 1:00:08.360 like a bougainvilla that's like ten feet tall that comes 1:00:08.400 --> 1:00:09.360 in the house in the winter. 1:00:10.320 --> 1:00:10.760 Amazing. 1:00:10.840 --> 1:00:13.560 I just bought some bougain via that I have in 1:00:13.600 --> 1:00:16.160 a pot right now, because I grew up with bougainvia 1:00:16.240 --> 1:00:19.200 in California, and I finally found a nursery that had 1:00:19.200 --> 1:00:21.120 it in an Oregon and I was like home. 1:00:22.760 --> 1:00:24.600 I always thought it was a potted plant until I 1:00:24.600 --> 1:00:26.600 saw it outside in a tropical environment. 1:00:26.640 --> 1:00:28.480 It's not a potted plant, not a part of. 1:00:28.480 --> 1:00:30.480 It, not in San Diego. It is a plant that 1:00:30.520 --> 1:00:31.800 will take over your guarden. 1:00:32.560 --> 1:00:34.880 Sorry, James, we've gone off the rails. Back to what 1:00:34.880 --> 1:00:35.280 you're saying. 1:00:35.440 --> 1:00:37.960 It's okay, yeah, returning to the rails. I did want 1:00:37.960 --> 1:00:41.640 to plug native seed search. I love native seed search 1:00:41.800 --> 1:00:46.160 for finding different and exciting seeds and preserving indigenous people's 1:00:46.160 --> 1:00:50.480 horticultural traditions and like lifeways. I have grown lots of 1:00:50.560 --> 1:00:53.240 seeds from native seed search with great success. And it's 1:00:53.240 --> 1:00:57.480 cool in a world of increasingly like monocultural agriculture to 1:00:57.600 --> 1:01:01.760 preserve something that is part of one's culture. Zapatistas will 1:01:01.760 --> 1:01:05.080 also send you corn. I'm sure anyone on the left 1:01:05.120 --> 1:01:07.480 who's over thirty years old is very familiar with zapatis 1:01:07.560 --> 1:01:09.880 to corn, I'm sure. But for the youth among us, 1:01:10.360 --> 1:01:13.439 you can order corn from the zapatistas that actually comes 1:01:13.440 --> 1:01:16.200 from somebody in San Diego who will send you some 1:01:16.280 --> 1:01:19.440 of this sort of heritage variety corn. And you're preserving 1:01:19.880 --> 1:01:24.440 this corn in a world where corn is increasingly commercialized. Right, 1:01:24.520 --> 1:01:27.720 things like Monsanto have a lockdown on some of these 1:01:28.480 --> 1:01:32.000 corn varieties. Right, they're like patented varieties. Right, even if 1:01:32.000 --> 1:01:35.200 you don't sew them, they're sort of invading the genome 1:01:35.240 --> 1:01:38.120 of these indigenous corn types. So keeping these varieties alive 1:01:38.360 --> 1:01:40.000 is a cool thing to do. I used to do 1:01:40.040 --> 1:01:42.800 this when I was like sixteen. This is like early activism. 1:01:42.880 --> 1:01:46.280 Me was like growing some zappetis to corn in my parents' greenhouse. 1:01:46.400 --> 1:01:47.640 But that's the thing you can do if you want 1:01:47.640 --> 1:01:48.080 cool corn. 1:01:48.200 --> 1:01:50.320 I think it's important too to look up what's native 1:01:50.360 --> 1:01:52.520 to your area, and not just because it is you know, 1:01:52.560 --> 1:01:54.360 the right thing to do, but it'll grow better where 1:01:54.400 --> 1:01:57.640 you live. The pollinators will be attracted to it where 1:01:57.640 --> 1:02:00.600 you live. I was just looking up like here in Virginia, 1:02:00.680 --> 1:02:04.960 the Department of Wildlife Resources will sell you native seeds 1:02:04.960 --> 1:02:07.640 for your area at a pretty good affordable rice. So like, 1:02:07.720 --> 1:02:11.680 look up what wants to live where you are growing it. Yeah, 1:02:11.800 --> 1:02:14.720 totally a lot of things, like ornamental garden plants are 1:02:15.200 --> 1:02:19.560 highly invasive and destructive to your local habitat. So things 1:02:19.560 --> 1:02:22.320 that might look really nice in your yard are destructive 1:02:22.320 --> 1:02:23.120 to your environment. 1:02:24.000 --> 1:02:25.880 Yeah, that's a big thing where it's probably a big 1:02:25.920 --> 1:02:28.040 thing everywhere, but like in California, and we talk about 1:02:28.080 --> 1:02:30.600 like invasive mustard. Right when you see these big yellow 1:02:30.680 --> 1:02:33.920 hillsides in California, that's an invasive plant. Of course, there's 1:02:33.960 --> 1:02:37.160 the climate changes. What is indigenous to one area may 1:02:37.200 --> 1:02:40.240 no longer be suitable for growing there, And that's definitely 1:02:40.240 --> 1:02:43.080 happened with some plants. I'd get a lot of plants 1:02:43.080 --> 1:02:45.320 as well from Desert Survivors, which is a little nursery 1:02:45.360 --> 1:02:48.080 in Tucson, Arizona, where I like to go and buy 1:02:48.080 --> 1:02:52.840 desert plants because I do not like to have plants 1:02:52.880 --> 1:02:55.760 that are extremely thirsty for water. This is my transition 1:02:56.040 --> 1:02:59.760 to our watering segment. You need to water your plants. 1:03:00.360 --> 1:03:03.600 This is something that people probably know that some tips 1:03:03.600 --> 1:03:08.280 for watering. You want to water your plants regularly and consistently. 1:03:08.880 --> 1:03:11.720 Plants can get stressed if you have a lot of water, 1:03:11.760 --> 1:03:13.400 then no water, then a lot of water. Again. If 1:03:13.400 --> 1:03:16.480 you're using a vibe space watering strategy, you might be 1:03:16.480 --> 1:03:20.360 causing your plant excessive stress. So I like to water 1:03:20.440 --> 1:03:23.320 my plants morning or evening because in the heat of 1:03:23.320 --> 1:03:26.760 the day you're going to lose more to evaporation. If 1:03:26.760 --> 1:03:28.280 you're really going for it, you can set up a 1:03:28.360 --> 1:03:30.880 drip feeder, which is a pretty cool system where the 1:03:31.040 --> 1:03:33.840 lots of little lines and they just drip water onto 1:03:33.840 --> 1:03:36.960 your plants. Those are a really great way to irrigate. 1:03:37.240 --> 1:03:39.280 You can also do what I often do, which is 1:03:39.640 --> 1:03:43.240 drink a lot and then use your plants as an 1:03:43.240 --> 1:03:45.720 excuse for doing that. By taking the little glass bottles 1:03:46.160 --> 1:03:49.080 and making plant waters out of them as you fill 1:03:49.080 --> 1:03:51.360 them up and then basically shove them in the ground 1:03:51.440 --> 1:03:52.920 as long as you can get a good plug of 1:03:52.920 --> 1:03:53.960 soil in the end of the bottle. 1:03:54.000 --> 1:03:56.000 And misunderstood where you were going with that. I thought 1:03:56.000 --> 1:03:57.880 you were pissing on your vegetables. 1:03:58.240 --> 1:03:58.560 Nope. 1:04:00.720 --> 1:04:03.040 So I've heard of putting urine in your compost tumbler, 1:04:03.120 --> 1:04:05.600 something about the urea and the nitrogen. But I don't 1:04:05.600 --> 1:04:07.360 think you're suposed to piss right on the tomatoes. 1:04:08.160 --> 1:04:08.600 No. 1:04:10.040 --> 1:04:12.720 I was trying to understand what Molly's the gig face 1:04:12.920 --> 1:04:14.240 was really. 1:04:14.440 --> 1:04:17.680 Yeah, Money's baffled by this bottle idea. 1:04:17.760 --> 1:04:19.800 I don't pee on my garden. Yeah, I mean it's 1:04:19.840 --> 1:04:21.520 sort of street facing. I think it would be sort 1:04:21.520 --> 1:04:22.480 of loud and lascivius. 1:04:22.600 --> 1:04:26.240 For the record, Yeah, Molly does not pee on her garden. 1:04:26.560 --> 1:04:29.240 I want everyone to know that Money's not a guden per. 1:04:29.520 --> 1:04:29.600 No. 1:04:29.720 --> 1:04:31.680 But watering is a big issue for me, right, So, 1:04:31.800 --> 1:04:34.360 because it's not supposed to be a garden there there's. 1:04:34.120 --> 1:04:36.200 No hose as a water source. 1:04:36.320 --> 1:04:38.920 There's no external like spigott for me to hook up 1:04:38.920 --> 1:04:41.320 a hose too. There's so I have to use a 1:04:41.360 --> 1:04:44.320 two gallon watering can that I fill in my bathtub 1:04:44.360 --> 1:04:46.720 and then take out one at a time, and so 1:04:47.200 --> 1:04:49.320 you know you're supposed to, like the equivalent of one 1:04:49.440 --> 1:04:52.240 inch of water per week is about average for a 1:04:52.240 --> 1:04:56.040 little vegetable garden, which is like zero point six gallons 1:04:56.040 --> 1:04:58.400 per square foot. So for my ten foot by ten foot, 1:04:58.400 --> 1:05:01.000 I'm looking at sixty gallons a week. So every other 1:05:01.080 --> 1:05:03.760 day fill up my watering can you know, ten or 1:05:03.760 --> 1:05:06.680 twenty times. It's an endeavor, good work, It's an endeavor. 1:05:06.760 --> 1:05:09.200 Yeah, it's a commitment to the plants. You could like 1:05:09.280 --> 1:05:12.480 do a hose and run out your window from the tap. 1:05:13.480 --> 1:05:15.400 I looked into it. So for people who live in 1:05:15.400 --> 1:05:17.080 apartments and have a lot of house plants, there's like 1:05:17.080 --> 1:05:18.960 an adapter you can get for your kitchen sink that 1:05:19.000 --> 1:05:21.160 you can screw a hose onto. But I do not 1:05:21.200 --> 1:05:22.480 have the right kind of faucet for that. 1:05:23.360 --> 1:05:27.200 Disappointing. I bet someone listening has a solution for Molly's plants. 1:05:27.480 --> 1:05:30.360 But first it's time for advertisements. 1:05:30.560 --> 1:05:33.240 I hope it's an advertisement for pissing outside. 1:05:33.600 --> 1:05:35.680 That would be great. I would read the advert for 1:05:35.720 --> 1:05:36.600 pissing outside. 1:05:36.880 --> 1:05:39.160 I just feel like that's what we're missing the. 1:05:39.120 --> 1:05:40.120 World is a toilet. 1:05:40.720 --> 1:05:44.560 Surely like Jocko or someone has done a like pissing outside, 1:05:44.800 --> 1:05:48.160 Jordan Peterson that they've done sunning your balls, they must 1:05:48.160 --> 1:05:49.280 have done pissing outside. 1:05:49.360 --> 1:05:51.000 So if you ask the people that make the shi 1:05:51.120 --> 1:05:52.240 Wi a failed sponsor the. 1:05:52.240 --> 1:05:53.400 Show, sure. 1:06:00.560 --> 1:06:02.800 We are back and we are now going to talk 1:06:02.840 --> 1:06:05.760 about and your versus perennial plants, a topic play know 1:06:05.880 --> 1:06:08.440 many of you have been wondering about. Would one of 1:06:08.440 --> 1:06:10.400 you like to explain? I'm sure you're familiar with annuals 1:06:10.400 --> 1:06:12.120 and perennials, which one of you like to take on 1:06:12.160 --> 1:06:13.720 the task of explaining them to our listeners? 1:06:14.640 --> 1:06:20.920 Sophie, what annuals just live for the one growing season. 1:06:20.960 --> 1:06:23.440 Perennials will come back next year, is the short of it. 1:06:23.520 --> 1:06:25.840 I definitely could have answered that, Well. 1:06:25.640 --> 1:06:26.760 You didn't, did you, Surpi? 1:06:27.160 --> 1:06:30.800 So your tomatoes are annuals. Allegedly my halapenna is supposed 1:06:30.800 --> 1:06:33.280 to be a perennial. She did not make it rip. 1:06:34.240 --> 1:06:36.400 We've had a couple of peppers over winter. I have 1:06:36.440 --> 1:06:38.880 a thie bird chili that made it from a couple 1:06:38.960 --> 1:06:41.160 of winters. Now, it'll depend a little bit on where 1:06:41.200 --> 1:06:42.800 you are as well, if they'll make it through the w. 1:06:42.920 --> 1:06:45.040 And I think I should have pruned it back earlier 1:06:45.120 --> 1:06:47.280 before the frost. I think they winter better if you 1:06:47.360 --> 1:06:49.560 prune them back. It was parted. I could have sunk 1:06:49.600 --> 1:06:51.680 the pot in the soil so the soil temperature would 1:06:51.720 --> 1:06:54.120 remain more constant, but I didn't do that. I about 1:06:54.160 --> 1:06:54.600 a new one. 1:06:55.440 --> 1:06:56.120 I respect that. 1:06:57.160 --> 1:07:00.520 So some other things to consider. I'm going three things 1:07:00.520 --> 1:07:02.400 that you might need to add as your guide growth 1:07:02.520 --> 1:07:05.760 would be like frames for plants that creep or plants 1:07:05.760 --> 1:07:10.240 that climb. Some tomatoes will need a frame. For Molly's cucumbers, 1:07:10.280 --> 1:07:11.160 you're going to need a frame. 1:07:11.320 --> 1:07:13.080 Oh, I got a little a frame for my cukees 1:07:13.120 --> 1:07:17.120 this year. But I hate tomato cages. Those you've seen them, 1:07:17.160 --> 1:07:19.600 the round little at the bottom when they get there, 1:07:19.720 --> 1:07:23.800 the horrible round wire cages. They're ugly, they're hard to store. 1:07:23.880 --> 1:07:25.360 They live in an apartment. What I'm going to do 1:07:25.400 --> 1:07:27.000 with that the other eight months out of the year. 1:07:27.440 --> 1:07:29.520 So what I did last year is a technique called 1:07:29.560 --> 1:07:33.840 Florida weave, where you use posts and twine and you 1:07:33.880 --> 1:07:37.040 sort of so you have the posts along the row 1:07:37.200 --> 1:07:40.240 and then you between the posts you weave the twine 1:07:40.280 --> 1:07:42.439 on either side of the plants, and it worked really 1:07:42.480 --> 1:07:45.440 well until my tomatoes became ten feet tall because I 1:07:45.480 --> 1:07:47.960 bought five foot posts. But it was good in theory. 1:07:48.720 --> 1:07:50.680 Yeah, that's how commercial tomatoes are grown. 1:07:50.840 --> 1:07:54.080 It was much more affordable than buying like something large, 1:07:54.120 --> 1:07:56.680 because I just went to tractor supply and bought Actually, 1:07:56.720 --> 1:07:59.880 the steaks I bought are for putting up electric fences, 1:08:00.040 --> 1:08:03.640 so they have clips every few inches along the post 1:08:03.800 --> 1:08:06.520 for so convenient to clip the wire into. So I 1:08:06.600 --> 1:08:08.560 used that to hold onto the twine and they were 1:08:08.560 --> 1:08:11.840 like a buck fifty apiece. So it's a much more 1:08:11.880 --> 1:08:15.800 affordable and more storage friendly. So Florida weave them great idea. 1:08:16.439 --> 1:08:18.880 Love that, Yeah, I love that. Someone gave me a 1:08:18.920 --> 1:08:21.600 load of bamboo and I just made frames out of 1:08:21.640 --> 1:08:24.120 that and just it's fun to do a little a 1:08:24.200 --> 1:08:27.240 frame hitch and make little frame and then you can 1:08:27.320 --> 1:08:29.960 just collapse it right because the a frame hitch, it 1:08:30.000 --> 1:08:31.840 relies on the spreading of the bottom to give it attention. 1:08:31.960 --> 1:08:34.040 So you just you bring them together again and you 1:08:34.080 --> 1:08:35.120 can store it over the winter. 1:08:35.520 --> 1:08:37.000 Yeah, So there are a lot of solutions out there 1:08:37.080 --> 1:08:40.760 that don't involve buying a fifty dollars contraption. It blows 1:08:40.960 --> 1:08:43.160 you know, like, don't feel like you have to invest 1:08:43.200 --> 1:08:46.320 a lot of money in like objects and gadgets and things. 1:08:46.640 --> 1:08:48.719 Yeah, I think generally, Actually, there's a lot of shit 1:08:48.760 --> 1:08:50.720 that's marketed at trying to get your plants to grow, 1:08:50.880 --> 1:08:53.920 and like, the chances are if your plants you're having 1:08:54.320 --> 1:08:56.160 not as much success as you would hope. They're not 1:08:56.160 --> 1:08:58.439 getting enough light, they're not getting enough water, or they're 1:08:58.439 --> 1:09:01.160 not getting enough nutrients, or too cold or too hot 1:09:01.280 --> 1:09:01.599 for them. 1:09:01.640 --> 1:09:02.799 You don't need a big gadget. 1:09:03.400 --> 1:09:05.840 Yeah, you don't need to buy a thing. And it 1:09:05.960 --> 1:09:07.560 is one of those areas where you can find for 1:09:07.800 --> 1:09:10.280 useful information on the internet. So if you're struggling with 1:09:10.320 --> 1:09:13.200 a certain plant, there is almost certainly someone who's already 1:09:13.240 --> 1:09:16.880 had that struggle and you can find their solutions. There 1:09:16.880 --> 1:09:19.439 are some pretty good websites for searching up that stuff. 1:09:20.040 --> 1:09:23.240 The last thing I wanted to cover was pruning and 1:09:23.400 --> 1:09:27.320 weeding and pest management, which can be a bit of 1:09:27.360 --> 1:09:32.080 a mission. Right now, I'm fighting a uphill struggle against 1:09:32.080 --> 1:09:35.559 some gophers. They have targeted me. You have to shoot 1:09:36.040 --> 1:09:39.200 this is a problem. I live in a relatively built 1:09:39.240 --> 1:09:43.560 up area, I am a person who grew up in agriculture. 1:09:43.560 --> 1:09:45.880 I know how to manage pests. But unfortunately all the 1:09:45.920 --> 1:09:51.680 things that I would have done are felony crime. 1:09:51.920 --> 1:09:54.280 Big government is interfering with your urban farm. 1:09:55.240 --> 1:09:57.519 Once again, the boot of the man is on my neck. 1:09:58.160 --> 1:10:00.479 I am at war with the squirrels here. That's weird. 1:10:00.479 --> 1:10:02.320 They didn't mess with me last year, I guess because 1:10:02.360 --> 1:10:03.880 you know, we had just moved in and they saw 1:10:03.880 --> 1:10:05.720 the dogs and they were concerned about the dogs. But 1:10:05.760 --> 1:10:09.519 this year they're feeling bold and they are digging holes. 1:10:09.760 --> 1:10:13.479 Every day. They're digging holes. They are burying peanuts in 1:10:13.520 --> 1:10:16.040 my garden, and I keep pulling peanuts out of the. 1:10:16.160 --> 1:10:17.639 I have a fucking peanut problem too. 1:10:17.800 --> 1:10:20.560 I'm not Jimmy Carter. I'm not farming peanuts. 1:10:20.760 --> 1:10:22.480 They're not afraid of Buccanatto. 1:10:22.840 --> 1:10:24.840 I guess because last year they didn't get got so 1:10:24.920 --> 1:10:25.960 this year they're feeling. 1:10:25.680 --> 1:10:28.439 Like Henderson keeps the squirrels at bay. They know their 1:10:28.479 --> 1:10:30.240 place and that it is her yard. 1:10:30.720 --> 1:10:33.439 A buccanotto on patrol though. Are they able to access 1:10:33.439 --> 1:10:33.760 the pit? 1:10:34.720 --> 1:10:37.479 No, the pit is like not accessible to dog, but 1:10:37.560 --> 1:10:40.080 like sometimes you know, they're out on the patio barking. 1:10:40.479 --> 1:10:42.960 But the solution that I have found because apparently I'm 1:10:42.960 --> 1:10:46.799 not allowed to shoot them a cayenne pepper. 1:10:47.120 --> 1:10:49.439 Yes, cayenne pepper is a great solution. 1:10:49.960 --> 1:10:52.799 I bought like several pounds of cayenne pepper in bulk, 1:10:53.080 --> 1:10:55.840 and I just sprinkle it on all of the surfaces, 1:10:55.880 --> 1:10:58.160 like on the surface of the soil along the wall 1:10:58.200 --> 1:11:00.280 around the pit because they don't want to like walk 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:02.559 in it and smell it, So it keeps them off 1:11:02.560 --> 1:11:04.640 the wall so they don't end up down in the 1:11:04.680 --> 1:11:05.360 pit to dig. 1:11:05.640 --> 1:11:07.960 I do the same. You get some that some chili oil, 1:11:08.160 --> 1:11:09.840 a little bit of water, you put a spray bottle, 1:11:09.840 --> 1:11:12.000 and he just keeps a lot of bugs away as well. 1:11:12.120 --> 1:11:13.719 Yeah, mace your plants. 1:11:14.080 --> 1:11:17.679 Yeah, Unfortunately I don't sprinkle into the wind. 1:11:19.320 --> 1:11:25.800 Oh no, Yeah, I've done the same thing. Money. I've 1:11:25.840 --> 1:11:27.160 maced myself trying to do that. 1:11:27.520 --> 1:11:29.559 As my strawberry start to ripe and I'm thinking, like 1:11:29.600 --> 1:11:31.760 maybe I should stop macing the strawberries. 1:11:32.800 --> 1:11:35.240 No, just grow mace strawberries. Then you'll be immune. If 1:11:35.240 --> 1:11:37.880 you ate enough of them, you could become like the Hulk. 1:11:37.920 --> 1:11:39.400 You know, they spray you and you just get strong. 1:11:39.560 --> 1:11:42.240 Yeah, I'm doing mithrittism with police brutality. 1:11:42.280 --> 1:11:44.200 Yeah, I love that for you, like the guy who 1:11:44.320 --> 1:11:46.639 lets his snakes bite him a little bit all the time, 1:11:46.840 --> 1:11:49.479 and yeah, but for cops, I love that. There are 1:11:49.479 --> 1:11:52.080 lots of solutions to this which don't evolve like spraying 1:11:52.120 --> 1:11:54.240 your plants with a butt kind of round up or 1:11:54.479 --> 1:11:57.360 round up will probably kill them. But other pesticides, right, 1:11:57.479 --> 1:11:59.760 like don't splay your plants is round up might kill 1:11:59.800 --> 1:12:02.759 you as well. But yeah, you have to first ascertain 1:12:03.280 --> 1:12:05.360 what pest you're dealing with, right, So for the gophers, 1:12:05.360 --> 1:12:07.160 one of the things you can do is, you know 1:12:07.240 --> 1:12:09.920 construction netting. It's like chicken wire bit thinner. Yeah, you 1:12:09.920 --> 1:12:11.960 can put that because the roots of the plant can 1:12:12.000 --> 1:12:14.400 still get through that. So you put that at the 1:12:14.400 --> 1:12:16.639 bottom of your planter, right where it sits on the soil. 1:12:16.680 --> 1:12:18.120 The roots of the plant can still get through, but 1:12:18.320 --> 1:12:22.479 mister gopher cannot missus gopher, non binary gopher can't get 1:12:22.479 --> 1:12:25.439 through their netting, just like a physical block. I've heard 1:12:25.479 --> 1:12:28.000 people say that cat litter is something you can sprinkle 1:12:28.720 --> 1:12:31.320 and they think are cats around. You can also just 1:12:31.400 --> 1:12:34.200 make a little house for a cat that doesn't have one, 1:12:34.360 --> 1:12:37.360 so that it comes and lives near your plants. We 1:12:37.439 --> 1:12:40.400 had that for a while. The little neighborhood cat came 1:12:40.439 --> 1:12:42.760 in to stay and it kept the rat problem to 1:12:42.800 --> 1:12:46.960 a minimum. You can use things like have you seen 1:12:46.960 --> 1:12:49.240 the ultrasound gopher preventors. 1:12:50.360 --> 1:12:52.400 Yeah, I can't use one of those because they think 1:12:52.439 --> 1:12:54.880 it would bother the dogs, right like you would bother 1:12:54.920 --> 1:12:56.160 other small mammals. 1:12:56.400 --> 1:12:59.240 I have one that I got on Jeffrey Bezos his 1:12:59.320 --> 1:13:01.920 website that are not in fact ultrasound. They're very much 1:13:02.000 --> 1:13:04.760 just regular sound, and I think Alas missold those, so 1:13:04.800 --> 1:13:07.120 they're worth trying. They are all sort of non lethal 1:13:07.200 --> 1:13:08.120 methods as well. 1:13:08.280 --> 1:13:10.479 You can get a plastic owl, yes. 1:13:10.400 --> 1:13:12.040 You can't if you've got a bird problem. You can 1:13:12.040 --> 1:13:14.040 also get bird netting if they're eating your berries, And 1:13:14.080 --> 1:13:16.320 I would suggest that you can get a variety of 1:13:16.320 --> 1:13:17.120 plastic animals. 1:13:17.160 --> 1:13:20.519 Actually, my mom has a coy pond, and so she 1:13:20.600 --> 1:13:23.800 got a plastic heron to scare away the real heron 1:13:23.840 --> 1:13:27.799 that eats the fish. And my dad misunderstood the purpose 1:13:27.800 --> 1:13:30.280 of the heron, right, it was a functional plastic bird. 1:13:30.280 --> 1:13:31.800 It was to scare away the real bird that eats 1:13:31.800 --> 1:13:34.120 the fish. And so he thought like oh, like we 1:13:34.240 --> 1:13:37.439 like fake birds now, and so he very lovingly bond 1:13:37.560 --> 1:13:40.559 a bunch of like different fake plastic birds for the yard. 1:13:41.080 --> 1:13:43.519 Oh that's so endearing. 1:13:43.720 --> 1:13:45.360 Yeah it's adorable, but it. 1:13:45.240 --> 1:13:49.200 Does not keep the heron away. Yeah, he's eating the fish. 1:13:49.280 --> 1:13:51.920 Maybe need a more intimidating plastic heron. Keep buying until 1:13:51.920 --> 1:13:52.400 you find. 1:13:52.200 --> 1:13:53.759 The one, you know, a really buff one. 1:13:54.040 --> 1:13:56.800 Yeah, yeah, buff one that's giving the middle finger because 1:13:56.840 --> 1:14:01.639 birds do that. H charns do that and they're buff 1:14:01.800 --> 1:14:02.000 like that. 1:14:02.439 --> 1:14:06.400 What other pest management things do we recommend? Oh? 1:14:06.600 --> 1:14:09.679 I love knee oil for thrips and. 1:14:09.640 --> 1:14:11.240 Aphids, sneem oil rules. 1:14:11.720 --> 1:14:14.080 I don't put any poison on my plants because I'm 1:14:14.560 --> 1:14:17.040 I'm against it. But I have a spray bottle that 1:14:17.080 --> 1:14:18.400 I put a little bit of knee oil and a 1:14:18.400 --> 1:14:20.920 little bit of down dish soap in and then mostly 1:14:21.000 --> 1:14:23.160 just hot water. After that, shake that bad way up 1:14:23.200 --> 1:14:24.040 and spray them down. 1:14:24.600 --> 1:14:27.680 Lady buds are a great one, Lady bugs for the 1:14:27.720 --> 1:14:28.759 Americans in the audience. 1:14:28.840 --> 1:14:30.720 The only thing I use like is is like, it's 1:14:30.760 --> 1:14:33.960 not really a poison, it's a bacteria. I don't know, 1:14:34.120 --> 1:14:39.479 debatable buy these bacillisitringiensis. I use that to keep the 1:14:39.520 --> 1:14:40.559 caterpillars away. 1:14:40.840 --> 1:14:42.840 There's also like a lot of different plants you can 1:14:42.840 --> 1:14:45.280 plant with your crops to help keep pests at bay, 1:14:45.320 --> 1:14:48.120 you know, thinking like you know a lot of herbs 1:14:48.160 --> 1:14:51.200 which you would want to grow anyways, like mint and 1:14:52.000 --> 1:14:57.920 rosemary and lavender and cat nip, and then also Merrygold's 1:14:58.040 --> 1:15:02.720 always good lemon gras as to Trunella grass. 1:15:02.800 --> 1:15:06.080 A coplant marigolden basil with my tomatoes. 1:15:06.720 --> 1:15:10.000 It looks nice. Also, I wanted to mention pruning. Yes, 1:15:10.120 --> 1:15:13.280 you do want to be pruning your plants with tomatoes. 1:15:13.320 --> 1:15:15.519 You want to pull off the suckers, right If you 1:15:15.520 --> 1:15:18.479 imagine your tomato is like a V, and then a 1:15:18.520 --> 1:15:20.519 third sprout coming up from the middle of the V. 1:15:21.720 --> 1:15:23.680 Because you should see what Jess is doing with his 1:15:23.760 --> 1:15:24.639 hands right now. 1:15:25.560 --> 1:15:28.160 Yeah, for the several thousand people who are not in 1:15:28.200 --> 1:15:31.080 the room, making a V with my hand and then 1:15:31.240 --> 1:15:34.559 an extra finger in the middle of the V. I 1:15:34.600 --> 1:15:36.960 can't do this without making myself laugh now. 1:15:36.920 --> 1:15:39.439 My, but yeah, pull off the suckers. 1:15:39.680 --> 1:15:42.320 You're generally gonna want to prune your plants, right, This 1:15:42.360 --> 1:15:44.679 will encourage them to fruit instead of just growing. 1:15:44.800 --> 1:15:48.160 Yes, especially with your herbs. You want to top your 1:15:48.200 --> 1:15:51.639 herbs because once they go to seed, they stop growing. 1:15:52.280 --> 1:15:53.719 Yeah. Oh they taste like ass. 1:15:53.800 --> 1:15:58.080 Cut your rosemary often. 1:15:58.600 --> 1:16:01.160 Give it a trim. People get really scared about pruning 1:16:01.240 --> 1:16:03.519 or pollidding. If you've got a tree, you poll add it. 1:16:03.560 --> 1:16:06.240 But it's really not that scary. Again, like depending on 1:16:06.280 --> 1:16:08.240 your plant, you'll find some good videos on YouTube. 1:16:08.320 --> 1:16:08.639 Yeah. 1:16:09.560 --> 1:16:12.080 The last thing I wanted to talk about is rotating 1:16:12.200 --> 1:16:14.760 your crops. Oh yeah, did you learn about this in 1:16:14.760 --> 1:16:17.639 school that we did or is this just a British. 1:16:17.439 --> 1:16:19.200 They cheat you guys about crop rotation. 1:16:19.600 --> 1:16:22.120 Yeah, that was not in any of my classes. 1:16:22.800 --> 1:16:24.960 Really, you didn't have a three field system. 1:16:25.200 --> 1:16:27.880 No, I learned that from like some nice YouTuber. 1:16:28.400 --> 1:16:30.200 Okay, well there's a niche for you there of your 1:16:30.240 --> 1:16:33.360 British person teach American people shit, they should have learned 1:16:33.360 --> 1:16:33.719 in school. 1:16:33.760 --> 1:16:36.120 On YouTube, it's going to take a long time. That's 1:16:36.120 --> 1:16:37.000 a long program. 1:16:37.320 --> 1:16:41.920 Yeah, you're overestimating our education system. So you can rotate 1:16:41.960 --> 1:16:43.439 your crops. So if you're growing the same thing in 1:16:43.479 --> 1:16:44.960 the same soil every year, it's going to pull the 1:16:44.960 --> 1:16:47.840 same stuff out every year, right, unless you're replenishing your soil, 1:16:47.880 --> 1:16:49.839 which you want to do if you've got your annual 1:16:49.880 --> 1:16:52.880 plants right, you do want to errate your soil. Turn 1:16:52.920 --> 1:16:56.040 it over. You can get a soil aarator's controversial. You 1:16:56.040 --> 1:16:57.760 don't believe in soil aeration. 1:16:57.640 --> 1:16:58.600 It's controversial. 1:16:59.120 --> 1:17:01.800 My belief is you should augment and erate your soil, 1:17:02.520 --> 1:17:06.240 or you can rotate your crops right, which what you're 1:17:06.240 --> 1:17:08.280 doing there is not growing the same thing every year. 1:17:08.520 --> 1:17:10.400 And crucially, what you want to include in a corp 1:17:10.520 --> 1:17:13.639 rotation is a nitrogen fixing plant, which is to say, 1:17:13.640 --> 1:17:14.759 a laguminous plant. 1:17:15.320 --> 1:17:17.479 The squirrels are actually trying to help me by planting 1:17:17.520 --> 1:17:18.600 those peanuts. 1:17:18.920 --> 1:17:20.640 Yes, I guess peanuts are in l Agome. I'd never 1:17:20.680 --> 1:17:23.639 thought that from a country where peanuts wouldn't grow. 1:17:23.640 --> 1:17:26.280 I guess I should apologize to the squirrels. 1:17:26.400 --> 1:17:29.320 Yep, little farming squirrels. I like to do peas. They're 1:17:29.320 --> 1:17:33.479 a lagome. A lentil. Everyone loves a lentil. It's kind 1:17:33.479 --> 1:17:37.519 of fun to grow a little lentil, do you yes, 1:17:37.600 --> 1:17:39.600 I remember you said it's on Twitter. This is incredible 1:17:39.640 --> 1:17:39.840 to me. 1:17:40.040 --> 1:17:43.679 It's because biding into a lentil, the way that surface 1:17:43.720 --> 1:17:46.879 tension breaks when you bite it. To me, is exactly 1:17:46.920 --> 1:17:49.000 how I imagine it would feel to bite into an 1:17:49.000 --> 1:17:50.080 engorged tick. 1:17:51.280 --> 1:17:52.800 Just reading about someone who bit a tick. 1:17:53.000 --> 1:17:56.920 I just decided I am anti lentil, just based on that. 1:17:58.080 --> 1:18:02.000 We can't allow money to ruin lentil. Lentils are your friend. 1:18:02.439 --> 1:18:04.360 I know they're great. They are a great source of 1:18:04.439 --> 1:18:06.560 non meat protein, but I can't do it. 1:18:06.600 --> 1:18:09.080 Apparently, I no longer can do it. 1:18:09.160 --> 1:18:12.040 Either cook them enough and there's not the surface engine, 1:18:12.160 --> 1:18:14.240 or get split once you know the red lentils that 1:18:14.280 --> 1:18:16.120 are split, and then you won't have the tension. 1:18:16.120 --> 1:18:16.800 I can do that. 1:18:16.880 --> 1:18:20.200 Yeah, okay, okay, we've agreed on I'm like fifty percent 1:18:20.320 --> 1:18:23.439 lentil by mass if I didn't have lentils, so, I 1:18:23.439 --> 1:18:25.880 don't know if I would make it, make a big 1:18:25.880 --> 1:18:28.479 thing on lentils every single Sunday and then I eat 1:18:28.520 --> 1:18:29.599 them most of the week. 1:18:29.760 --> 1:18:31.360 It never even occurred to me, like what does a 1:18:31.400 --> 1:18:33.840 lentil plant look like? Which part of the plant is 1:18:33.840 --> 1:18:34.360 the lentil? 1:18:35.360 --> 1:18:37.160 It's the seed. I think there's the lagume. 1:18:37.400 --> 1:18:40.240 It's the that sounds labor intensive to harvest. 1:18:41.080 --> 1:18:43.320 It's not too bad. It's kind of fun. Because lentils 1:18:43.320 --> 1:18:45.040 play such an important role in my life. I like 1:18:45.160 --> 1:18:47.720 to grow them. It's fixing a n ogen back. We 1:18:47.760 --> 1:18:50.600 could put any laguminous plant right, it would fix a 1:18:50.680 --> 1:18:52.759 nitchen back in your soil. And if you rotate those 1:18:52.840 --> 1:18:55.920 through and even leave your soil fallow for a while 1:18:56.000 --> 1:18:58.519 so they don't grow anything, right, if you have a 1:18:58.560 --> 1:19:01.080 space to do that, rotating your around, right, so you 1:19:01.080 --> 1:19:03.519 have like a fallow and then something else and then 1:19:03.720 --> 1:19:06.360 the goom, and then you just rotate them around every year. 1:19:06.840 --> 1:19:07.599 I just have the pit. 1:19:07.880 --> 1:19:10.519 You could segment off the pit. You could do pit 1:19:10.600 --> 1:19:14.120 quarters and you could rotate them around. You could have lentils, 1:19:14.160 --> 1:19:17.639 you could have tomatoes, basil and the little fallow patch 1:19:17.680 --> 1:19:19.120 for the dogs to run around. 1:19:19.120 --> 1:19:19.200 It. 1:19:19.479 --> 1:19:22.679 Just let you say tomatoes and basils entire time. 1:19:23.800 --> 1:19:26.280 Yeah, I'm so glad, thank you, Thank you for not 1:19:26.400 --> 1:19:28.120 making me feel feel bad. 1:19:28.160 --> 1:19:31.040 I was thinking it. I want you to know, but 1:19:31.120 --> 1:19:33.320 I kept I held it in like a winner until 1:19:33.560 --> 1:19:34.200 the very end. 1:19:34.320 --> 1:19:36.160 So yeah, the very end. 1:19:36.479 --> 1:19:37.799 My grandmother says, tomato. 1:19:39.320 --> 1:19:40.960 Yeah. Good Americans do. 1:19:41.120 --> 1:19:42.280 Yeah. 1:19:42.320 --> 1:19:44.840 Really, the ones that I've met, I feel like they're 1:19:44.840 --> 1:19:47.599 either doing it. Sometimes people will meet me and then 1:19:47.640 --> 1:19:55.320 start talking like me incredible, it's not at all. It's 1:19:55.360 --> 1:19:59.200 really weird when you notice someone changing their vowels. Yeah, 1:19:59.200 --> 1:20:01.160 it's very weird. I don't know if this happens to everyone, 1:20:01.160 --> 1:20:03.040 and it's just a thing that happens to British people. 1:20:03.520 --> 1:20:06.479 So yeah, that's my message for you. Grow plants. Do 1:20:06.600 --> 1:20:10.200 not start speaking like me or anyone. Don't parrot people's 1:20:10.200 --> 1:20:13.400 action to just talk to where you talk. It's it's fine, but. 1:20:13.360 --> 1:20:15.600 Just like, don't overthink it. Just put some plants in 1:20:15.640 --> 1:20:17.519 the dirt. Try it out. The worst that can happen. 1:20:17.520 --> 1:20:18.639 It doesn't work, it's okay. 1:20:19.040 --> 1:20:21.080 Yeah, they're not very exprected. I get seeds, grow them 1:20:21.160 --> 1:20:21.960 up from the seeds. 1:20:22.320 --> 1:20:24.720 And never buy cut basil from the grocery store. You know, 1:20:24.760 --> 1:20:27.160 you spend six dollars with that little plastic blister pack 1:20:27.160 --> 1:20:29.680 of leaves. Don't do it. It's cheaper to buy the 1:20:29.680 --> 1:20:32.200 whole plant and then you have unlimited basil. 1:20:32.400 --> 1:20:34.960 Unless you're me who can't grow lest you're Sofia. 1:20:35.160 --> 1:20:37.240 Yeah yeah, yeah, just Sophie, Please go ahead and buy 1:20:37.280 --> 1:20:37.920 cut basil. 1:20:38.120 --> 1:20:40.360 No, I'll just steal some from my friends who know 1:20:40.439 --> 1:20:41.240 how to grow. 1:20:42.400 --> 1:20:44.080 Yeah, that's another thing you can do. Steal. 1:20:44.120 --> 1:20:46.400 Oh yeah, that's the other thing. Steal plants from your friends, 1:20:46.520 --> 1:20:49.639 bring your friends cuttings, share your plants with friends. 1:20:50.080 --> 1:20:53.240 I don't consider it stealing to snap off little cuttings 1:20:53.320 --> 1:20:54.080 or seed heads. 1:20:54.120 --> 1:20:55.280 No, like I don't either. 1:20:55.400 --> 1:20:57.760 No. My fanny pack is full of like mysterious seed 1:20:57.760 --> 1:20:59.680 heads that I popped off of plants, and so I 1:20:59.680 --> 1:21:02.120 put in the dirt because I couldn't remember what they were. 1:21:02.920 --> 1:21:04.719 That's also like a really fun game. 1:21:05.640 --> 1:21:08.960 Yeah, I think these are cosmos. We'll find out. 1:21:09.479 --> 1:21:11.800 Get some seeds and trade them with your friends and 1:21:11.920 --> 1:21:14.519 everyone gets a mystery plant. Be a fun thing to do. 1:21:14.920 --> 1:21:17.639 And don't forget to grow a flower too. Yeah, grow 1:21:17.640 --> 1:21:19.960 a nice flower, attract some beans. 1:21:19.920 --> 1:21:23.400 Grow some pollinators. This is a weird little anecdote to 1:21:23.479 --> 1:21:26.720 end on. So beyond the company who make the protective 1:21:26.720 --> 1:21:30.160 combat uniform for the US military, they also make some 1:21:30.160 --> 1:21:32.479 really nice clothing that I buy for work stuff. Sometimes 1:21:32.520 --> 1:21:34.559 I get afraid of being on fire, so I like 1:21:34.600 --> 1:21:38.639 to buy fire retardant stuff. And they send a little 1:21:38.720 --> 1:21:40.960 tag with all of their clothing. So you're buying your 1:21:41.000 --> 1:21:43.800 like fire retardant base layer to or under your plate 1:21:43.840 --> 1:21:45.599 carrier when you're working and It comes with a little 1:21:45.600 --> 1:21:48.439 tag that has plant seeds in it, and if you 1:21:48.479 --> 1:21:50.559 plant the tag, flowers will grow. 1:21:51.080 --> 1:21:51.880 That's beautiful. 1:21:52.040 --> 1:21:54.240 It's wonderful, isn't it. Yeah, it's very nice. And for 1:21:54.280 --> 1:21:58.400 that reason line, they're my favorite purveyor of fireproof uniforms. 1:21:59.080 --> 1:22:01.919 Oh and get a sun hat. If you're outside gardening, 1:22:02.160 --> 1:22:05.519 get a big floppy sun hat. It really helps you 1:22:05.560 --> 1:22:07.519 get in the zone and it also protects you from 1:22:07.560 --> 1:22:07.960 the sun. 1:22:08.920 --> 1:22:10.920 It's a great tape. I think we shouldet end with that. Bye, 1:22:10.920 --> 1:22:11.599 by a sun. 1:22:11.400 --> 1:22:14.840 Hat, by a sun hat, wear sunscreen and listen to 1:22:15.000 --> 1:22:17.679 sixteenth minute of Fame, our newest Cloze media podcast hosted 1:22:17.680 --> 1:22:18.599 by Jamie loftus. 1:22:18.680 --> 1:22:19.280 Ah. 1:22:19.280 --> 1:22:22.360 Wow, so true, so true. Yeah, listen to it. 1:22:22.479 --> 1:22:25.560 Wow, gardening wearing a sun hat and sunscreen. 1:22:26.240 --> 1:22:27.320 I did that this morning. 1:22:27.479 --> 1:22:28.519 That's what I was doing this morning. 1:22:28.600 --> 1:22:29.400 So we had to know. 1:22:29.880 --> 1:22:31.879 Oh, Mollie, such a legend. 1:22:32.400 --> 1:22:34.439 I was propagating my basil tops in my little sun 1:22:34.479 --> 1:22:35.679 hat listening to show. 1:22:36.280 --> 1:22:40.439 All right, the podcast has ended very well. 1:22:54.800 --> 1:22:55.479 Welcome back to you. 1:22:55.600 --> 1:22:57.840 It could happen here in a daily podcast about the 1:22:57.840 --> 1:23:01.400 widening cracks in society threatening to swallow. I am once 1:23:01.439 --> 1:23:04.120 again your occasional host Molly Conger, joined today by your 1:23:04.200 --> 1:23:05.639 friend and mine, Robert Evans. 1:23:07.000 --> 1:23:07.200 Hi. 1:23:08.520 --> 1:23:12.960 Yeah, friends of all people, how are you doing, Molly. 1:23:12.840 --> 1:23:15.000 Reilly started things off, I hurt my feelings. 1:23:15.600 --> 1:23:18.719 Yeah, well, you know, you and I have been buddies 1:23:18.800 --> 1:23:21.080 for a while. We're a special kind of friend that 1:23:21.120 --> 1:23:24.759 can only exist in the era of signal loops because 1:23:25.400 --> 1:23:28.559 we met in twenty twenty and then since then the 1:23:28.600 --> 1:23:31.280 bulk of our socializing has been one or the other 1:23:31.360 --> 1:23:33.920 of us being like, so, this fucked up thing happened 1:23:33.920 --> 1:23:34.919 to me on the internet. 1:23:36.840 --> 1:23:39.840 Yeah, that's friends at the end of the World's. 1:23:39.600 --> 1:23:41.600 Friends at the end of the world. Yeah, watching the 1:23:41.680 --> 1:23:43.280 long slow slide together. 1:23:43.920 --> 1:23:46.240 Well, today I've got sort of an update on the 1:23:46.240 --> 1:23:49.120 ongoing cases against the Nazis who invaded my local college 1:23:49.160 --> 1:23:52.799 campus seven years ago. I see, it's sort of because 1:23:52.800 --> 1:23:56.240 it's some messy story and the end result is nothing. 1:23:57.360 --> 1:24:00.960 So we finally got a case to trial and nothing changed. 1:24:01.640 --> 1:24:03.880 So for listeners who aren't keeping tabs on my local 1:24:03.920 --> 1:24:06.599 county court's effort to apply an old anti clan law 1:24:06.640 --> 1:24:09.519 to a Nazi rally that happened a lifetime ago, just 1:24:09.520 --> 1:24:10.400 a quick reminder. 1:24:10.320 --> 1:24:11.160 Yeah, long time ago. 1:24:11.680 --> 1:24:14.559 This is about the August eleventh, twenty seventeen, torch march 1:24:14.560 --> 1:24:16.840 held at the University of Virginia on the eve of 1:24:16.840 --> 1:24:19.840 the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. I've done a. 1:24:19.800 --> 1:24:22.760 Couple This is not the rally. This is not the 1:24:22.800 --> 1:24:27.000 precise like the rally where there was the James Alexfield 1:24:27.080 --> 1:24:30.080 did his vehicle based terrorist attack. This was the thing 1:24:30.120 --> 1:24:31.080 that happened before that. 1:24:31.280 --> 1:24:33.439 This was the appetizer, right, This was the night before 1:24:33.520 --> 1:24:36.240 they all got together and held their torches. And so 1:24:36.240 --> 1:24:38.880 I've done a couple episodes about these cases, and I've 1:24:38.920 --> 1:24:41.200 been writing about them in my newsletter, The Devil's Advocate. 1:24:41.280 --> 1:24:43.559 So if you want a deeper dive into the cases 1:24:43.720 --> 1:24:47.960 more generally, that is available elsewhere. So in the year 1:24:47.960 --> 1:24:50.880 and change since these cases started getting filed, we've seen 1:24:50.920 --> 1:24:54.200 eleven guys charged under this sort of obscure Virginia law 1:24:54.200 --> 1:24:56.280 that makes it a felony to burn an object with 1:24:56.320 --> 1:24:59.360 the intent to intimidate. It's based on an old anti 1:24:59.400 --> 1:25:03.240 clan law criminalizing cross burning. But back in nineteen ninety eight, 1:25:03.240 --> 1:25:05.360 a couple of clansmen got into some trouble for burning 1:25:05.360 --> 1:25:08.240 some crosses. And I'm trying to break myself up the 1:25:08.240 --> 1:25:10.640 habit of getting really deep into these sort of tangential 1:25:11.120 --> 1:25:14.040 pieces of history that underlie a story, because it turns 1:25:14.080 --> 1:25:17.000 out that's my special interest and not actually great podcasting. 1:25:17.400 --> 1:25:19.000 But the long and the short of it is, Virginia's 1:25:19.000 --> 1:25:21.920 cross burning statute had to be amended. The original law 1:25:22.000 --> 1:25:24.479 banned it outright, with this sort of built in assumption 1:25:24.560 --> 1:25:27.640 that like, obviously, if you're burning across you're trying to 1:25:27.680 --> 1:25:30.880 communicate a certain kind of threat. But the law didn't 1:25:30.880 --> 1:25:33.559 actually say that. It just made it illegal to do it. 1:25:34.320 --> 1:25:37.439 And so the act itself of burning the cross under 1:25:37.439 --> 1:25:40.520 the old law was prima facia evidence of intent to intimidate, 1:25:40.720 --> 1:25:44.000 and the courts ultimately found that that's unconstitutional. So in 1:25:44.000 --> 1:25:46.280 two thousand and two, the General Assembly amended the law 1:25:46.320 --> 1:25:49.200 and they just added in some specific language that you 1:25:49.280 --> 1:25:51.920 have to be doing it with a specific intent, right, 1:25:51.920 --> 1:25:55.920 you have to be doing this to intimidate someone. Again, 1:25:56.080 --> 1:25:58.879 that's kind of implied, but the implication was not sufficient, 1:25:58.920 --> 1:25:59.640 so they changed it. 1:26:00.200 --> 1:26:01.400 I know that sounds like some really. 1:26:01.200 --> 1:26:04.040 Like c span level like boring shit, like legislative history 1:26:04.080 --> 1:26:05.640 is not why you're here, But I promise that's going 1:26:05.680 --> 1:26:08.200 to pay off. Right, So the law doesn't specify what 1:26:08.320 --> 1:26:10.679 you're burning. It's not just crosses, it's any burning object, 1:26:10.760 --> 1:26:12.280 but it does say you have to be doing it 1:26:12.280 --> 1:26:14.320 with a particular intent and in a way. 1:26:14.439 --> 1:26:18.040 Could you theoretically smoke a cigarette in an aggressive manner 1:26:18.040 --> 1:26:19.080 and violate this law? 1:26:19.200 --> 1:26:22.080 However, the Nazis lawyers keep asking that, and I don't 1:26:22.120 --> 1:26:22.439 know the. 1:26:22.479 --> 1:26:24.320 I feel like the answer is I have to see 1:26:24.320 --> 1:26:25.599 great minds think alike. 1:26:26.200 --> 1:26:28.519 I feel like every one of these guys lawyers has 1:26:28.560 --> 1:26:30.559 been like, what if I flicked a cigarette at you? 1:26:30.600 --> 1:26:33.559 And it's like, I mean, well, flicking as I would 1:26:33.600 --> 1:26:36.080 say that that's clearly a sort because you can actually 1:26:36.160 --> 1:26:38.280 hurt someone with it, but like just smoking it, right, 1:26:38.360 --> 1:26:39.080 like with that tex. 1:26:39.000 --> 1:26:42.200 Right, Like if I'm smoking a cigarette while harassing you. 1:26:42.479 --> 1:26:44.280 You know, yeah, yeah, be like you're going to go 1:26:44.439 --> 1:26:47.680 up like this cigarette, bro, and then I light this cigarette? 1:26:47.720 --> 1:26:49.760 Like is that if I violated it? 1:26:49.880 --> 1:26:50.479 I mean, I. 1:26:50.360 --> 1:26:54.120 Guess maybe, But it's all sort of contextual, right, So 1:26:54.200 --> 1:26:56.120 the language of the law is what it is. You 1:26:56.160 --> 1:26:57.880 could try to bring that case, I'm not sure that 1:26:58.360 --> 1:27:02.840 it would work. So you bring an object specifically in 1:27:02.880 --> 1:27:05.719 a way that would make somebody feel like you're gonna 1:27:05.800 --> 1:27:08.400 hurt them, right, so placing someone in fear of injury 1:27:08.479 --> 1:27:11.120 or death. But since that change was made in two 1:27:11.160 --> 1:27:14.880 thousand and two, nobody's ever actually been charged with it. So, 1:27:15.160 --> 1:27:18.040 like many laws, like Virginia's prohibition on trying to incite 1:27:18.040 --> 1:27:20.599 a race war, that is apparently a class four felony. 1:27:21.280 --> 1:27:23.599 Yeah, Thomas Jefferson might have had a hand in that law. 1:27:24.560 --> 1:27:25.240 That's scance. 1:27:25.600 --> 1:27:28.479 Actually it's from nineteen fifty and I'm really interested in 1:27:28.520 --> 1:27:30.760 the legislative history. I'm gonna ask a law librarian. But 1:27:30.760 --> 1:27:33.160 again I'm lost again. I'm lost again. So this has 1:27:33.240 --> 1:27:36.120 just been sitting on the books for twenty years, waiting 1:27:36.160 --> 1:27:39.960 for somebody to try it, and so last year somebody 1:27:39.960 --> 1:27:42.439 tried it. Last year, somebody finally put the law to 1:27:42.479 --> 1:27:44.920 the test and started charging the guys who participated in 1:27:44.960 --> 1:27:48.040 that torch march. And what better application of this law, right, 1:27:48.080 --> 1:27:50.280 I can't think of a clearer example. The torches, they're 1:27:50.280 --> 1:27:53.599 on fire, they're chanting blood and soil, they're throwing Hitler's salutes, 1:27:53.600 --> 1:27:57.040 they're attacking people. And of the eleven men charged so far, 1:27:57.360 --> 1:27:59.880 five have already pled guilty. Four of those have already 1:27:59.880 --> 1:28:02.719 been sentenced, all receiving active sentences of a year or less, 1:28:03.320 --> 1:28:06.800 and they've actually already completed those sentences. Only half of 1:28:06.800 --> 1:28:08.960 those guys actually went home from here, though, and then 1:28:09.200 --> 1:28:13.280 the little aside Tyler Dyke served a few months here, 1:28:13.320 --> 1:28:15.160 and then he got picked up by the US Marshalls 1:28:15.200 --> 1:28:18.920 on federal charges for the insurrection. William Fears served a year, 1:28:18.960 --> 1:28:20.800 and he actually just got picked up the other day 1:28:20.840 --> 1:28:23.960 by a county in Pennsylvania. It's an old bench warrant. 1:28:24.120 --> 1:28:25.920 He's been in jail so many times in so many 1:28:25.920 --> 1:28:27.880 states for the last twenty years that they've actually been 1:28:27.880 --> 1:28:30.360 having trouble getting a hold of him for violating his 1:28:30.400 --> 1:28:34.080 probation fifteen years ago. They let him off on probation 1:28:34.200 --> 1:28:36.719 for lying on a firearm application in two thousand and five, 1:28:37.600 --> 1:28:40.000 but then he kidnapped a college freshman and stabbed her 1:28:40.000 --> 1:28:43.320 in the face, which I think was a probation violation, 1:28:44.280 --> 1:28:45.960 And by the time they got around to bringing him in, 1:28:46.000 --> 1:28:48.080 he was already back in prison for strangling a different woman. 1:28:48.680 --> 1:28:51.840 Again another digression. Sorry, So, even though we've had five 1:28:51.920 --> 1:28:54.920 guilty please, we still hadn't actually seen this case taken 1:28:54.960 --> 1:28:57.360 to trial, so we know five defendants looked at the 1:28:57.360 --> 1:29:00.600 evidence and thought, oh, yeah, well it's a video of 1:29:00.640 --> 1:29:03.760 me committing that crime. We still didn't know what a 1:29:03.880 --> 1:29:06.880 jury would make of it. And this month Jacob Dix 1:29:06.880 --> 1:29:10.599 took his case to trial, and we still don't actually 1:29:10.640 --> 1:29:12.720 know what a jury would make of it, because it 1:29:12.800 --> 1:29:17.400 ended in a mistrial. After twelve hours of deliberation over 1:29:17.439 --> 1:29:19.960 the course of two days, which was significantly longer than 1:29:19.960 --> 1:29:23.240 they actually spent hearing the evidence, the jury was deadlocked. 1:29:23.680 --> 1:29:26.519 They had eight not guilty votes, three guilty, and one 1:29:26.560 --> 1:29:29.880 person who didn't have an opinion either way. A source 1:29:29.960 --> 1:29:32.120 tells me the jurors all agreed not to make any 1:29:32.120 --> 1:29:35.040 public statements or to discuss what happened in the deliberation room, 1:29:35.600 --> 1:29:37.920 so we don't know for sure what the debate was 1:29:38.000 --> 1:29:41.240 like in there. But I sat through the trial, and honestly, 1:29:41.960 --> 1:29:43.639 I know what kind of case I would have put 1:29:43.680 --> 1:29:46.759 on right. So obviously, obviously I believe a guilty verdict 1:29:46.800 --> 1:29:49.880 is achievable in this case. But given what I saw, 1:29:50.240 --> 1:29:54.960 I'm surprised even as single juror voted guilty. There's nothing there. 1:29:55.840 --> 1:29:57.760 But before I tell you about the three days I 1:29:57.840 --> 1:29:59.960 wasted sitting on a wooden bench in a courtroom un 1:30:00.120 --> 1:30:04.040 to use for clan meetings. Let's hear from some advertisers. 1:30:04.320 --> 1:30:20.479 Ah, speaking of the Nope, nope, ads, Ah, we're back. 1:30:20.920 --> 1:30:22.479 What a what a time to be alive. 1:30:23.040 --> 1:30:26.280 We are alive. The trial started on June fourth, and 1:30:26.439 --> 1:30:30.000 it did not go well. I've written about this at 1:30:30.080 --> 1:30:32.280 greater length in my newsletter if you want some background 1:30:32.280 --> 1:30:34.800 on why the case ended up with a special prosecutor. 1:30:35.720 --> 1:30:38.559 But basically, the judge fell for a Nazi conspiracy theory 1:30:38.600 --> 1:30:40.559 and that's where we ended up. So the case goes 1:30:40.600 --> 1:30:44.280 to try good. Yeah, you know, I I have a 1:30:44.320 --> 1:30:47.240 problem with the system in Virginia of these substitute judges. 1:30:47.280 --> 1:30:49.040 So we had to bring in a substitute judge. And 1:30:49.120 --> 1:30:52.320 it's just retired guys. So they take cases if they 1:30:52.320 --> 1:30:55.280 feel like it. They don't yea, so they. 1:30:55.360 --> 1:30:58.760 Just add yeah, just just ad hoc judging. Sure that 1:30:58.800 --> 1:30:59.280 seems good. 1:30:59.320 --> 1:31:01.400 Hey, there's a retire age for a reason, Like, I 1:31:01.400 --> 1:31:03.599 don't know that you're keeping up with the case law. Anyway, 1:31:03.640 --> 1:31:07.120 we had a substitute judge and a special prosecutor, So 1:31:07.200 --> 1:31:09.640 the case goes to trial with an out of town prosecutor. 1:31:09.840 --> 1:31:12.559 And because of how late in the game this motion 1:31:12.720 --> 1:31:15.639 was granted. And there's the speedy trial clock. They had 1:31:15.640 --> 1:31:17.880 a pretty limited amount of time to get up to 1:31:17.920 --> 1:31:20.880 speed after being assigned the case to prepare for trial. 1:31:21.280 --> 1:31:22.880 So they didn't know the case. They don't know the 1:31:22.920 --> 1:31:25.400 local cops, they don't know the witnesses, they're not familiar 1:31:25.400 --> 1:31:28.360 with the clerk of court here, just the basic procedural stuff. 1:31:28.360 --> 1:31:30.680 This is not their home turf, and they don't really 1:31:30.680 --> 1:31:32.960 have any investment in this case. This isn't something that 1:31:33.000 --> 1:31:37.240 they chose to charge. It's just assigned to them. And again, 1:31:37.640 --> 1:31:41.479 this is the first time this law has ever been 1:31:41.479 --> 1:31:43.720 put in front of a jury, so there's no playbook here, right. 1:31:43.720 --> 1:31:45.639 They can't sort of look to how this usually goes 1:31:45.680 --> 1:31:48.840 and just do that. The real problem, though, is something 1:31:48.880 --> 1:31:53.800 that's not unique at all. A prosecutor is desperate for 1:31:53.880 --> 1:31:58.440 a good victim. They want something that is clean and uncomplicated. 1:31:58.880 --> 1:32:00.360 They want to be able to show the jury a 1:32:00.360 --> 1:32:03.080 little morality play with good guys and bad guys and 1:32:03.120 --> 1:32:06.280 no messy stuff. They don't want the story to have 1:32:06.320 --> 1:32:09.200 any elements that could snag on a juror's ideas about 1:32:09.200 --> 1:32:12.400 the world. So instead of telling a story about anti 1:32:12.439 --> 1:32:17.120 fascists being attacked by fascists, which is what happened, they 1:32:17.160 --> 1:32:19.600 shaped their case around testimony from a bystander. 1:32:20.520 --> 1:32:23.320 Oh good, the most reliable kind of testimony. 1:32:23.439 --> 1:32:26.280 Yeah, now, I remember I promised that boring stuff about 1:32:26.320 --> 1:32:29.679 the statutory requirement of intent would pay off. Right, Well, 1:32:30.360 --> 1:32:34.280 I'm not sure the prosecutor understood that well. And if 1:32:34.280 --> 1:32:36.280 I were to tell you that something was making me 1:32:36.360 --> 1:32:39.720 feel intimidated, you know, generally, sort of colloquially speaking, I'm 1:32:39.760 --> 1:32:42.880 saying I'm afraid. I'm being made to feel timid. Is 1:32:42.920 --> 1:32:45.080 the root of the word, right, I am uncomfortable. I 1:32:45.120 --> 1:32:48.960 am afraid. But it means something really specific here. It 1:32:49.000 --> 1:32:53.400 doesn't just mean being afraid in conjunction with that language 1:32:53.400 --> 1:32:56.920 about placing someone in reasonable fear of bodily injury or death. 1:32:57.360 --> 1:33:00.880 We're not talking about feeling afraid. We're talking about the 1:33:00.960 --> 1:33:04.439 legal idea of a true threat. So a true threat 1:33:04.479 --> 1:33:06.519 is something that is not free speech. It is conduct 1:33:06.560 --> 1:33:09.240 and expression that is no longer protected by the First Amendment. 1:33:09.800 --> 1:33:11.360 And I'm I'm not going to go to bat here 1:33:11.400 --> 1:33:13.400 for the First Amendment. I'm not going to defend this 1:33:13.479 --> 1:33:16.000 sort of like libertarian idea that actually it's good and 1:33:16.120 --> 1:33:19.559 healthy for a society that people can march around playing 1:33:19.600 --> 1:33:24.080 junior Stormtrooper. But you know, technically they can right loader 1:33:24.120 --> 1:33:24.360 hate it. 1:33:24.400 --> 1:33:25.960 That's not what we're talking about it. It's the difference 1:33:25.960 --> 1:33:28.439 between saying I think the government should round up and 1:33:28.560 --> 1:33:31.439 kill this group of people, which is absolutely protected speech, 1:33:32.040 --> 1:33:34.800 and saying I am going to murder you tonight in 1:33:34.880 --> 1:33:38.280 your home at this address, which you theoretically can get 1:33:38.320 --> 1:33:40.559 in trouble for, although a lot of times people don't. 1:33:41.120 --> 1:33:43.040 You know, in my experience, people who see that to 1:33:43.080 --> 1:33:45.479 me don't get in trouble. But I'm not sure that's. Yes, 1:33:45.800 --> 1:33:46.880 it's a legal thing. 1:33:47.479 --> 1:33:50.280 It's mainly they get in trouble when they do that 1:33:50.360 --> 1:33:53.519 two FBI agents, as that one Trump fan did after 1:33:54.200 --> 1:33:55.439 Hunter Biden's conviction. 1:33:56.600 --> 1:33:59.080 Or there's been a rash lately of people getting picked 1:33:59.160 --> 1:34:01.920 up after they leave a voicemail at a congressional office. 1:34:02.000 --> 1:34:05.200 Don't leave a threat in a voice, Okay, don't don't that. 1:34:05.280 --> 1:34:07.400 Yeah, Wyatt, what are you? What are you doing? How 1:34:07.400 --> 1:34:11.200 do you think this is going to work out? People 1:34:11.240 --> 1:34:11.799 are cooked? 1:34:12.280 --> 1:34:13.960 So a lot of people are learning lately what a 1:34:14.000 --> 1:34:17.719 true threat is right. So you know, up until that point, 1:34:18.520 --> 1:34:20.559 there's a lot of shit you could do that sucks. 1:34:20.800 --> 1:34:23.400 You can march around and be a little Nazi with 1:34:23.439 --> 1:34:26.120 your pals, but what you cannot do is engage in 1:34:26.120 --> 1:34:29.000 conduct that constitutes a true threat. And I think drawing 1:34:29.080 --> 1:34:31.880 that line in a really clear way for the jury 1:34:32.479 --> 1:34:34.240 was what this case should have been about. I think 1:34:34.360 --> 1:34:36.960 they needed to hold the jury's hand through that, you know, 1:34:37.400 --> 1:34:39.320 and say, you know, the defense is making this a 1:34:39.360 --> 1:34:41.880 free speech case. And if it had stopped here, if 1:34:41.920 --> 1:34:44.280 it had stopped at this point, you know, show them 1:34:44.560 --> 1:34:48.200 where it stopped, where it changed. But they didn't do that, 1:34:48.640 --> 1:34:52.840 and they left that line really blurry because the problem 1:34:52.920 --> 1:34:56.160 is the point at which that line was crossed was 1:34:56.200 --> 1:34:59.720 when that march encircled the small group of counter protesters, right, 1:34:59.720 --> 1:35:02.960 So they spent half an hour marching and then they 1:35:02.960 --> 1:35:05.200 got to where they were going, and that's when it 1:35:05.240 --> 1:35:08.360 crossed the line. You know, they lit their torches, they marched, 1:35:08.360 --> 1:35:11.960 they chanted. It was obviously intended to evoke Nazi Germany. 1:35:12.560 --> 1:35:14.240 You know, they're saying blood and soil Jews will not 1:35:14.280 --> 1:35:17.160 replace us. It's a real Hitler vibe and a lot 1:35:17.160 --> 1:35:19.240 of people who are on the fence about the prosecutions 1:35:19.280 --> 1:35:22.720 are looking at that and saying, well, yeah, like that's disgusting, 1:35:22.880 --> 1:35:28.000 But isn't that free speech? And it is. Most of 1:35:28.080 --> 1:35:31.080 that was right, So most of that conduct was not 1:35:31.160 --> 1:35:33.840 against the law. You know, if you saw that, you 1:35:33.920 --> 1:35:37.080 might feel afraid. People did, and that makes sense. It 1:35:37.160 --> 1:35:40.240 was very alarming to see. It might make you feel unsafe, 1:35:40.920 --> 1:35:44.439 and it could and definitely did eventually evolve into a 1:35:44.479 --> 1:35:48.719 situation where people are unsafe. But seeing them pass by 1:35:49.040 --> 1:35:52.719 doesn't actually put you in a position where you might die, 1:35:52.880 --> 1:35:55.559 I mean not right at the moment anyway, Right, You know, 1:35:55.600 --> 1:35:58.360 the law doesn't really extend to the idea that this 1:35:58.400 --> 1:36:00.919 is part of a larger societal shift that ends violently. 1:36:00.960 --> 1:36:03.680 You know, this existential thread of the rise of fascism 1:36:04.680 --> 1:36:07.439 doesn't constitute a true threat in the immediate sense under 1:36:07.479 --> 1:36:07.800 the law. 1:36:07.920 --> 1:36:08.120 Right. 1:36:09.200 --> 1:36:12.600 Yeah, A guy, a dude in a similar situation in 1:36:12.680 --> 1:36:17.080 DC in twenty twenty stabbed a person and got off 1:36:17.280 --> 1:36:20.120 because it was very clear that he like, when you 1:36:20.160 --> 1:36:21.599 are surrounded. 1:36:24.920 --> 1:36:28.040 That's true threat, right, that you are in imminent danger. Right, 1:36:28.040 --> 1:36:32.120 And it wasn't just a person that was Jeremy, I know, yeah, 1:36:32.160 --> 1:36:33.839 that way. That was Jeremy Bertino. 1:36:34.240 --> 1:36:35.760 One of my favorite stabbings. 1:36:36.800 --> 1:36:39.800 Yeah, just a weird turn of events for Jeremy because 1:36:39.840 --> 1:36:44.960 the month before he got stabbed it was, oh gosh, 1:36:45.000 --> 1:36:46.679 it was one of the other Proud Way rallies in DC. 1:36:47.240 --> 1:36:49.280 I was surrounded by a group of proud boys that 1:36:49.320 --> 1:36:51.320 he was commanding, right, and so I was in that 1:36:51.600 --> 1:36:54.960 the same position, and I was getting a little nervous 1:36:54.960 --> 1:36:56.519 because they were starting to, you know, get my face 1:36:56.560 --> 1:36:59.639 and touch me and try and move me around. Jeremy 1:36:59.640 --> 1:37:04.559 actually meet them. Stop. You know, you don't chivalry. You 1:37:04.560 --> 1:37:06.400 don't got to hand it to Jeremy. But I think 1:37:06.400 --> 1:37:07.720 he knew it would have been bad for them if 1:37:07.720 --> 1:37:08.360 they stabbed me. 1:37:08.600 --> 1:37:11.120 Little did he know, Yeah, he would be there, whereas 1:37:11.160 --> 1:37:14.439 the guy who stabbed him was in block and such. 1:37:14.680 --> 1:37:18.240 Yeah, just a strange, strange twist of history for Jeremy. 1:37:18.240 --> 1:37:23.639 Now he states, witness m hm, anyway, where were we 1:37:23.640 --> 1:37:25.920 We could cut some of that. I'm out of it today. 1:37:26.160 --> 1:37:27.960 We're both in a bad way right now. 1:37:29.040 --> 1:37:32.880 Yeah. I think everyone's always in a bad way these days. 1:37:32.880 --> 1:37:37.720 That's it's worth acknowledging. I can't sleep anymore. You're frazzled, like, 1:37:37.880 --> 1:37:40.840 welcome to twenty twenty four. It's fine, We're doing as 1:37:40.880 --> 1:37:42.799 well as either a presidential candidate. 1:37:43.840 --> 1:37:46.080 I had to wait until the recess in the city 1:37:46.080 --> 1:37:48.120 council meeting yesterday to go outside and check on the 1:37:48.200 --> 1:37:50.679 drive by on my block, Like things are going good. 1:37:51.960 --> 1:37:57.240 Yeah, things are things are solid? Uh yeah? 1:37:57.520 --> 1:37:59.240 Should I just take the whole paragraph. 1:37:58.880 --> 1:38:01.480 From the top, sure, yeah, started. 1:38:03.880 --> 1:38:07.560 Because I don't even know where to re starve. Okay. 1:38:07.800 --> 1:38:10.120 It wasn't until the march encounter the counter protesters that 1:38:10.160 --> 1:38:12.840 there was truly intentional intimidation that placed them in fear 1:38:12.880 --> 1:38:15.479 of injury or death. The people who were trapped, and 1:38:15.520 --> 1:38:17.760 I mean that literally all avenues of escape were close 1:38:17.800 --> 1:38:20.040 to them. The march formed a circle around them that 1:38:20.160 --> 1:38:23.160 was ten men deep. Those were the victims of this crime. 1:38:23.760 --> 1:38:26.599 They were beaten and punched and kicked and pepper sprayed. 1:38:26.600 --> 1:38:30.240 It were shoved and hit with lit torches. They thought 1:38:30.280 --> 1:38:36.920 they would die. But those people are complicated, aren't they right? 1:38:37.320 --> 1:38:41.600 Those people were Antifa, they were activists, they were believers 1:38:41.640 --> 1:38:45.400 in Black Lives Matter, they were communists, the anarchists, right, 1:38:45.800 --> 1:38:48.960 queer people, trans people, people of color, people who attend 1:38:49.040 --> 1:38:52.240 protests and have attended more since they were people who 1:38:52.320 --> 1:38:55.160 hated Nazis. There were people with skin in. 1:38:55.160 --> 1:38:59.320 The game, people whose existence is inherently politicized, and thus 1:38:59.400 --> 1:39:02.080 attempts to destroy them can't just be seen as a 1:39:02.120 --> 1:39:05.799 human being being assaulted. They have to be seen as like, well, 1:39:06.400 --> 1:39:08.760 is the thing that they believe and my opinions on 1:39:08.800 --> 1:39:10.599 it as a judge a mitigating factor. 1:39:11.320 --> 1:39:15.760 Right, It's messy, it shouldn't be, but it is right. 1:39:15.800 --> 1:39:17.960 These were people who believe that we have a duty 1:39:18.000 --> 1:39:20.400 to each other to stand in the way of the 1:39:20.400 --> 1:39:23.120 march of fascism, and that night that's literally what they did. 1:39:24.280 --> 1:39:27.439 And that's murky for a prosecutor. What if the jury 1:39:27.479 --> 1:39:31.720 doesn't like that, What if, maybe just a little bit 1:39:32.560 --> 1:39:33.439 they deserved it? 1:39:34.120 --> 1:39:34.320 Right? 1:39:34.720 --> 1:39:37.120 Does the law really still protect you if you make 1:39:37.160 --> 1:39:42.400 a choice a jury doesn't understand. And so the prosecutor 1:39:42.439 --> 1:39:44.479 chose to rest this case on the shoulders of a 1:39:44.520 --> 1:39:47.040 young woman whose front door the march past that night 1:39:47.160 --> 1:39:50.200 on its way to the scene of the crime. As 1:39:50.240 --> 1:39:52.320 a young Jewish woman alone in her room that night, 1:39:52.360 --> 1:39:55.680 she was terrified to hear the approaching Nazi march. She 1:39:55.760 --> 1:39:58.040 took off a necklace in a ring bearing symbols of 1:39:58.040 --> 1:40:00.320 her faith and hid them before she fl at her 1:40:00.320 --> 1:40:05.439 home and fear. She was absolutely a victim of white 1:40:05.439 --> 1:40:08.559 supremacist terror. But I do not think she was a 1:40:08.600 --> 1:40:12.080 victim under the language of this statute. And I want 1:40:12.080 --> 1:40:14.120 to be so clear about that, right. I'm not saying 1:40:14.160 --> 1:40:16.960 what happened to her was okay, or that it's her 1:40:17.080 --> 1:40:19.400 fault that the case was presented this way. She was subpoena, 1:40:19.560 --> 1:40:22.200 she gave the testimony she was required by the law 1:40:22.320 --> 1:40:25.479 to give, and she gave it well. And she's obviously 1:40:25.520 --> 1:40:27.639 deeply traumatized by this. And so when I say she's 1:40:27.640 --> 1:40:29.400 not a victim of the crime, when I say that 1:40:30.000 --> 1:40:32.760 the fear that she felt does not meet this legal standard, 1:40:33.439 --> 1:40:37.040 I don't mean anything other than that there are far 1:40:37.080 --> 1:40:39.880 more ways to harm a person and a community than 1:40:39.920 --> 1:40:43.519 have been contemplated by our part time General Assembly. But 1:40:44.520 --> 1:40:50.320 under this statute, being frightened, however reasonable, that is, however 1:40:50.400 --> 1:40:54.320 serious she felt that fear is not the same as 1:40:54.360 --> 1:40:57.639 being placed in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury. 1:40:58.280 --> 1:41:00.800 I think her testimony could have been really valuable as 1:41:00.800 --> 1:41:04.559 a supplement to this overall presentation, because she was very emotional. 1:41:04.600 --> 1:41:07.000 I think it was very moving for the jury, but 1:41:07.080 --> 1:41:09.720 it didn't move the needle legally, And I think it 1:41:09.760 --> 1:41:12.240 was a really perilous foundation on which to try to 1:41:12.280 --> 1:41:15.479 construct a case. But you know, it would not be 1:41:15.600 --> 1:41:18.960 a perilous course of action for you to take, Robert 1:41:19.640 --> 1:41:20.280 Jesus Christ. 1:41:20.600 --> 1:41:22.760 It would be perilous if I didn't get this ad 1:41:22.800 --> 1:41:27.240 break in because Sophie has a taser now, so let's 1:41:27.320 --> 1:41:28.800 just let's just move right along. 1:41:28.880 --> 1:41:30.640 Does it ever stop feeling dirty to do that? 1:41:31.880 --> 1:41:32.240 No? 1:41:32.240 --> 1:41:32.280 No? 1:41:32.479 --> 1:41:36.400 I mean, you know what, what doesn't feel dirty these days, Mollie. 1:41:36.400 --> 1:41:40.240 What feels clean probably buy I pay so much in 1:41:40.360 --> 1:41:42.880 taxes and that always feels dirty. Like I know where 1:41:42.880 --> 1:41:45.639 they're going. I see the celebrities signing the bombs they 1:41:45.640 --> 1:41:59.320 helped pay. I don't feel good about anything. We're back, 1:41:59.360 --> 1:42:01.439 and you know, here's a free ad, Molly. I found 1:42:01.439 --> 1:42:05.040 out where I can buy the really good mace. I 1:42:05.360 --> 1:42:08.120 learned about this mace the right way to learn about mace, 1:42:08.120 --> 1:42:10.360 which is I had it used on me and was like, wow, 1:42:10.400 --> 1:42:12.960 that mace was much more debilitating than normal mace. 1:42:12.960 --> 1:42:14.080 You've got a free samples. 1:42:14.880 --> 1:42:17.840 Yeah, I got a free sample from two different federal agencies, 1:42:17.840 --> 1:42:20.200 and it it knocked me at a commission for about 1:42:20.200 --> 1:42:22.719 a half hour each time, which is pretty good for mace. 1:42:23.720 --> 1:42:26.120 It's called silver Bullet and it's a like a ten 1:42:26.160 --> 1:42:29.599 percent OC two percent CS. I maybe mixing those up mix, 1:42:30.080 --> 1:42:31.720 but you're not supposed to be able to buy it 1:42:31.760 --> 1:42:34.120 if you're not law enforcement. But it's not illegal. So 1:42:34.160 --> 1:42:37.080 I finally just found a website that doesn't doesn't check, 1:42:37.280 --> 1:42:39.200 and now I've got the good mace. I don't really 1:42:39.240 --> 1:42:40.600 know what to do with it. 1:42:40.479 --> 1:42:42.680 But does it actually have silver in it? Will it 1:42:42.720 --> 1:42:43.679 also kill germs? 1:42:44.600 --> 1:42:44.880 No? 1:42:44.880 --> 1:42:48.120 No, no, I have to use my anti microbial silver 1:42:48.360 --> 1:42:51.920 wound dressings for that, but I do have some of those. 1:42:52.120 --> 1:42:55.839 Jesus Christ always useful to have molly important stuff. 1:42:57.120 --> 1:42:59.400 Well, I'm glad you got yourself a little treat. I 1:42:59.439 --> 1:43:01.920 think that's import in these days, a little treat, Yeah, 1:43:02.080 --> 1:43:05.000 sort of. One of my guiding principles in this increasingly 1:43:05.160 --> 1:43:07.479 awful world is if you can get a little treat, 1:43:07.479 --> 1:43:08.479 you should get a little treat. 1:43:09.439 --> 1:43:12.599 Yeah. One of my guiding principles is like, whenever I 1:43:12.640 --> 1:43:15.679 decide I'm depressed and I'm going to like do retail therapy, 1:43:15.840 --> 1:43:18.200 just just a pick up a new kind of weapon, 1:43:18.200 --> 1:43:20.720 a kind of weapon I don't have already. I got 1:43:20.720 --> 1:43:23.439 a rungu the other day, which is a kind of 1:43:24.280 --> 1:43:27.719 stick that you beat people with. You know, I'm making 1:43:27.760 --> 1:43:31.080 sure that I'm like diversified my portfolio. 1:43:31.520 --> 1:43:33.720 I was thinking more like sometimes at Kroger they have 1:43:33.760 --> 1:43:36.280 a new flavor of chips. But your thing's cool too. 1:43:37.160 --> 1:43:40.479 Mm hmm, it's good. It's good. Chips can be a 1:43:40.520 --> 1:43:44.520 weapon anyway. But let's move back to the subject. 1:43:44.240 --> 1:43:46.840 Back to the courthouse. Right, the defense in this case 1:43:47.360 --> 1:43:49.840 was right about one thing. I mean, they didn't say 1:43:49.920 --> 1:43:51.720 very much. They didn't actually put on a case. They 1:43:51.720 --> 1:43:54.080 put on no evidence and no witnesses. But he spoke 1:43:54.080 --> 1:43:56.200 a few times, right, the attorney, He spoke a few times, 1:43:56.200 --> 1:44:00.080 And in his closing defense attorney Peter Fraser said he 1:44:00.080 --> 1:44:02.320 didn't have to put on a case because the prosecutor 1:44:02.320 --> 1:44:05.840 made his case for him. The counter protesters could not 1:44:06.000 --> 1:44:06.960 be intimidated. 1:44:08.000 --> 1:44:09.000 Now that means what. 1:44:08.960 --> 1:44:12.040 He said, right, the counter protesters in this case, they 1:44:12.080 --> 1:44:16.640 couldn't be intimidated because they opted into this. The protesters 1:44:16.640 --> 1:44:20.400 brought this on themselves, their mere presence in this public space, 1:44:20.439 --> 1:44:23.680 expressing their right to protest was a waiver of their 1:44:23.760 --> 1:44:27.040 right to safety, and they consented to whatever happened after that, 1:44:27.600 --> 1:44:31.760 and they couldn't be victims of anything. Right. They wanted this, 1:44:32.240 --> 1:44:34.880 They chose to be there, they knew the Nazis were coming, 1:44:36.960 --> 1:44:40.360 and the prosecutor's failure to rebut this, to actively push 1:44:40.439 --> 1:44:44.080 back against the idea that entering this space was some 1:44:44.080 --> 1:44:47.080 sort of agreement to mutual combat, right, that the failure 1:44:47.080 --> 1:44:49.479 to push back on that at all can only be 1:44:49.520 --> 1:44:53.240 seen as an agreement they allowed. The court and the 1:44:53.280 --> 1:44:57.960 defense and the judge himself said, well, no one was hurt, 1:44:58.200 --> 1:45:01.040 and they failed to call witnesses who hurt because people 1:45:01.040 --> 1:45:01.519 were hurt. 1:45:01.680 --> 1:45:06.680 Yeah, yeah, that seems like a massive, like disqualifying oversight. 1:45:07.400 --> 1:45:09.960 They you know, they could have sometimes. 1:45:09.640 --> 1:45:12.120 Especially with anarchists defendants, that could be hard to get 1:45:12.160 --> 1:45:14.720 people who are willing to testify. But I imagine you can 1:45:14.760 --> 1:45:16.320 find some people in this case. 1:45:17.120 --> 1:45:17.280 Right. 1:45:17.320 --> 1:45:19.680 So the thing is is I acknowledge that there are 1:45:20.400 --> 1:45:22.280 many of the victims and many of the witnesses who 1:45:22.680 --> 1:45:25.719 have chosen not to participate in this process. Right. First 1:45:25.720 --> 1:45:27.800 of all, I'm not saying it would be good if 1:45:27.800 --> 1:45:31.000 this happened, but technically you can subpoena them anyway. 1:45:31.160 --> 1:45:31.360 Right. 1:45:31.880 --> 1:45:34.640 There are people in this case who would have cooperated 1:45:34.840 --> 1:45:37.760 had they been called. People like Alan Groves, who in 1:45:37.800 --> 1:45:41.160 twenty seventeen was a dean at UVA who was burned 1:45:41.200 --> 1:45:45.120 by the flames, or UVA librarian Tyler McGill, who suffered 1:45:45.160 --> 1:45:48.200 a catastrophic stroke after being struck in the neck by 1:45:48.200 --> 1:45:48.679 a torch. 1:45:49.400 --> 1:45:51.920 Free advice there, folks, Free advice there. 1:45:51.960 --> 1:45:57.000 Prosecutors, they subpoened, but did not call my own friend God, 1:45:57.120 --> 1:45:59.559 one of the counter protesters there that night, who's testimony 1:45:59.600 --> 1:46:03.479 about being pepper sprayed put Christopher Cantwell in jail. They 1:46:03.479 --> 1:46:05.720 did not call Devin Willis or Natalie Romero, who were 1:46:05.720 --> 1:46:08.240 plaintiffs in the civil lawsuit and have already proven their 1:46:08.240 --> 1:46:11.800 ability to testify with incredible courage and clarity about being 1:46:11.880 --> 1:46:14.439 kicked and punched as they were trapped by the wall 1:46:14.520 --> 1:46:17.960 of flames. In the civil trial, Devon recalled the moment 1:46:18.000 --> 1:46:21.160 he realized he had been doused in lighter fluid. He 1:46:21.280 --> 1:46:24.760 thought that they were going to burn him alive. He 1:46:24.920 --> 1:46:27.960 was nineteen years old, and he testified that all he 1:46:28.000 --> 1:46:30.479 could think about was that he had so much to 1:46:30.560 --> 1:46:33.160 live for and he had to find a way out 1:46:34.400 --> 1:46:38.280 and Natalie. She testified about being trapped, about how small 1:46:38.320 --> 1:46:41.479 she felt at the center of the screaming mob, and 1:46:41.520 --> 1:46:44.800 that she thought she would be burned to death as 1:46:44.800 --> 1:46:47.200 she covered her face and her head from the rain 1:46:47.320 --> 1:46:51.040 of fists. And she described that she didn't really understand 1:46:51.160 --> 1:46:53.759 the effects of pepper spray. She was a college student, 1:46:53.800 --> 1:46:56.360 she'd never been pepper sprayed before. When she got home 1:46:56.400 --> 1:46:58.080 that night, she sat down on her shower to cry, 1:46:58.160 --> 1:47:01.799 just trying to process the experience of nearly being killed 1:47:01.800 --> 1:47:04.960 by a crowd of Nazis, and the hot steam reactivated 1:47:04.960 --> 1:47:08.639 the chemical irritants, burning her eyes and skin all over again. 1:47:10.280 --> 1:47:13.439 They didn't call the people who were hurt, and they 1:47:13.520 --> 1:47:17.680 let the jury think that there were none and the 1:47:17.760 --> 1:47:20.519 only actual witnessed No, you go ahead. 1:47:20.760 --> 1:47:24.519 That's just I just it's such a dereliction of duty. 1:47:24.640 --> 1:47:27.960 Like it's such a frustrating Like it's not hard, Like 1:47:28.000 --> 1:47:31.000 this is not secret information that you're privy to because 1:47:31.040 --> 1:47:34.519 of your deep Antifa connections. You can just like google this. 1:47:34.520 --> 1:47:36.680 This is like thirty minutes of reading to have a 1:47:36.720 --> 1:47:37.639 couple of those names. 1:47:37.680 --> 1:47:42.639 At least the Federal Court transcripts of this testimony exist, 1:47:43.120 --> 1:47:46.479 they're free. I already paid for them. 1:47:46.840 --> 1:47:47.040 You know. 1:47:47.080 --> 1:47:49.600 And at one point when the judge said this was 1:47:49.600 --> 1:47:51.680 outside the presence of the jury when the judge said it, 1:47:52.000 --> 1:47:53.679 but the judge said, we don't want know one was hurt. 1:47:54.479 --> 1:47:58.439 And I'm sitting in the courtroom next to someone who 1:47:58.600 --> 1:48:02.360 was hurt, and I'm just like, I embarrassed to be 1:48:02.439 --> 1:48:06.599 in this room with these people who are behaving this way. 1:48:07.600 --> 1:48:07.760 You know. 1:48:07.800 --> 1:48:10.960 The only actual witness to and victim of this crime 1:48:11.040 --> 1:48:13.720 that they put on the stand at all was Emily Gresenski, 1:48:13.880 --> 1:48:15.880 and this was not her first time on the witness 1:48:15.880 --> 1:48:18.720 stand in that courtroom. She also testified against Christopher can't 1:48:18.720 --> 1:48:21.519 well for pepper spraying her that night, and she handled 1:48:21.520 --> 1:48:26.440 it well, she's testified before. She's good at it, unshakable. 1:48:27.439 --> 1:48:30.240 But a witness can only answer the questions they're asked. 1:48:30.800 --> 1:48:33.880 A witness can't put on their own evidence. A witness 1:48:33.920 --> 1:48:37.400 can't tell you a story. A witness can't do anything 1:48:37.479 --> 1:48:42.599 other than give short answers to questions. Right, So even 1:48:42.600 --> 1:48:45.400 the best witness is only as good as the questions 1:48:45.400 --> 1:48:48.200 they're asked. And they failed to elicit from her the 1:48:48.240 --> 1:48:51.720 most important part of the story what actually happened at 1:48:51.720 --> 1:48:54.519 the statue. So a lot of the evidence they put 1:48:54.520 --> 1:48:57.559 on with her on this I don't want to get 1:48:57.560 --> 1:49:00.760 too law in order about this, right, but you can't 1:49:00.840 --> 1:49:02.640 just put on evidence, right, you have to have a 1:49:02.680 --> 1:49:05.559 witness on the stand to testify to it. You can't 1:49:05.600 --> 1:49:06.280 just show stuff. 1:49:06.560 --> 1:49:09.960 It's not a conversation, Like somebody can't just like raise 1:49:10.000 --> 1:49:11.280 their hand in the middle of this and be like, 1:49:11.320 --> 1:49:13.200 well I got actually I actually did get hurt at 1:49:13.240 --> 1:49:15.240 that thing. Like, that's not the way court cases were. 1:49:15.520 --> 1:49:17.400 And so they used much of Emily's time on the 1:49:17.439 --> 1:49:20.479 stand to show two videos. One was a video she shot, 1:49:20.520 --> 1:49:22.559 so it makes sense to have her testify to this 1:49:22.680 --> 1:49:25.400 video that she recorded, right. So she was live streaming 1:49:25.880 --> 1:49:28.200 from the very beginning right down where they were preparing 1:49:28.240 --> 1:49:30.080 and lighting the torches, and then she was following them 1:49:30.080 --> 1:49:34.000 along on the march, just sort of documenting what was occurring. 1:49:34.320 --> 1:49:36.000 And that's what she thought she was there to do, right, 1:49:36.000 --> 1:49:39.080 She's just documenting that this march is taking place. She's thinking, Oh, 1:49:39.080 --> 1:49:41.120 they're going to give some speeches. I'll record the speeches 1:49:41.160 --> 1:49:43.559 so people can sort of see what this event was about. 1:49:44.000 --> 1:49:48.479 She did not go there intending to become trapped and assaulted, right, 1:49:48.520 --> 1:49:51.040 So much of her time on the stand was sort 1:49:51.040 --> 1:49:54.080 of answering questions about this video as it played, But 1:49:54.120 --> 1:49:57.439 they also had her answer questions about a video that 1:49:57.520 --> 1:50:00.439 was recorded from inside the march, and I'm not I'm 1:50:00.439 --> 1:50:02.639 not sure how effective it was to just show thirty 1:50:02.720 --> 1:50:06.960 minutes of video of guys walking, and the defense leaned 1:50:07.000 --> 1:50:11.120 really heavily into the idea that, well, obviously she wasn't scared. 1:50:11.680 --> 1:50:14.800 Look at her, right, So she's clearly not intimidated. She's 1:50:14.920 --> 1:50:18.120 really close to this march recording it. And without a 1:50:18.200 --> 1:50:21.160 concrete theory of the case that establishes that, well, no, 1:50:21.280 --> 1:50:24.080 this isn't where the crime is happening, right these guys 1:50:24.120 --> 1:50:27.479 walking isn't the crime. She's not intimidated yet, that's that's 1:50:27.520 --> 1:50:30.360 not happening right now. So without that sort of concrete 1:50:30.400 --> 1:50:34.920 explanation for the jury that the crime occurs at the end, 1:50:36.280 --> 1:50:38.240 they might take away from that that will, oh, yeah, 1:50:38.240 --> 1:50:41.200 she doesn't really seem scared here, right, that this whole 1:50:41.240 --> 1:50:44.040 part where she's walking and narrating, she doesn't really seem scared. 1:50:44.760 --> 1:50:48.479 And leaving aside the finer philosophical point that you can 1:50:48.560 --> 1:50:52.800 be brave even if you're scared. Her testimony was really 1:50:52.800 --> 1:50:56.920 clear here she wasn't afraid for her life. Then she 1:50:57.000 --> 1:50:59.559 testified that she arrived at the plaza where the statue 1:50:59.600 --> 1:51:02.240 stands before the marchers did. Right, So they are marching 1:51:02.320 --> 1:51:04.960 through UVA grounds and it ends in this sort of 1:51:05.040 --> 1:51:07.599 plaza out in front of the rotunda where a statue is, 1:51:07.920 --> 1:51:11.000 and she got there before the march did, and she 1:51:11.040 --> 1:51:13.439 saw that the group of counter protesters was very small, 1:51:14.720 --> 1:51:16.680 and she knew what was coming, right. She watched these 1:51:16.680 --> 1:51:18.799 guys get ready. She watched them put on their helmets 1:51:18.800 --> 1:51:21.759 and their weighted gloves and their brass knuckles and lighting 1:51:21.760 --> 1:51:23.840 their torches, and you guys are wrapping their hands like 1:51:23.840 --> 1:51:26.960 they're getting ready for an mma fight. So she knows 1:51:26.960 --> 1:51:30.640 what's coming and they don't. And so she looks at 1:51:30.640 --> 1:51:33.679 this small group of young people and she's afraid for them. 1:51:34.320 --> 1:51:36.920 She's afraid for their safety. She feels a duty to 1:51:37.040 --> 1:51:41.080 these people. They're mostly college students, and because you can 1:51:41.200 --> 1:51:44.559 be brave even if you are scared, she stayed with them, 1:51:45.960 --> 1:51:49.000 and once they were surrounded by this increasingly violent mob. 1:51:49.080 --> 1:51:53.400 Once she was live streaming her own assault. Of course 1:51:53.439 --> 1:51:56.760 she was in fear of bodily harm. She was being harmed, right, 1:51:56.760 --> 1:51:59.040 There's not a debate about whether someone might be in 1:51:59.080 --> 1:52:01.920 fear of bodily harm. You're watching them get harmed. 1:52:04.040 --> 1:52:08.960 Yeah, but if you aren't scared of that, then it 1:52:09.360 --> 1:52:13.839 doesn't like that. That's I guess kind of the problem. 1:52:14.280 --> 1:52:18.120 It should be like, would an average like a normal 1:52:18.160 --> 1:52:21.320 person consider this to be an objectively threatening situation? 1:52:21.640 --> 1:52:23.559 And that is the standard. 1:52:23.640 --> 1:52:26.360 Yeah, this is not a crime that actually requires a 1:52:26.400 --> 1:52:30.320 complaining victim to say I did feel this way. It's 1:52:30.320 --> 1:52:32.960 a really it's what's called a reasonable person standard. Right, 1:52:33.000 --> 1:52:36.320 So what a reasonable person in this situation feel this way? 1:52:36.320 --> 1:52:41.120 The answer is yes, okay, a reasonable person would be afraid, 1:52:41.400 --> 1:52:42.759 afraid of getting hit in the face. 1:52:43.680 --> 1:52:44.800 Yes, I would say so. 1:52:44.920 --> 1:52:46.880 And there was a lot of argument pre trial in 1:52:46.920 --> 1:52:48.599 this case and some of the others that like, well, 1:52:48.640 --> 1:52:50.160 you know, what does that even mean? What does it 1:52:50.240 --> 1:52:52.800 mean for a reasonable person to be afraid? I mean, 1:52:53.640 --> 1:52:57.000 that is a valid philosophical conversation, but it is not 1:52:57.200 --> 1:53:00.679 a valid rebuttal to the idea of this charge, because 1:53:00.720 --> 1:53:03.519 that is the standard for many of the of the 1:53:03.560 --> 1:53:06.040 statutes in our code, right, that like it. It's the 1:53:06.080 --> 1:53:07.320 legal standard for assault. 1:53:08.360 --> 1:53:08.559 Right. 1:53:09.320 --> 1:53:11.400 But again, much of the time she's on the stand, 1:53:11.840 --> 1:53:15.720 they're just showing thirty minutes of people walking, and there 1:53:15.800 --> 1:53:19.040 was so little time spent showing what happened when they 1:53:19.080 --> 1:53:22.160 got there. They could have shown the jury the moment 1:53:22.200 --> 1:53:24.439 of the video where at the top of the steps 1:53:24.439 --> 1:53:26.400 to the rotunda, right, So they're at the top of 1:53:26.439 --> 1:53:29.760 these stairs looking down at that plaza below, and these 1:53:29.800 --> 1:53:32.200 counter protesters are just coming into view to the for 1:53:32.240 --> 1:53:37.120 the first time for the marchers, and Daniel Borden looks 1:53:37.160 --> 1:53:41.280 down and sees them and yells, you're out numbered, Antifa, 1:53:42.000 --> 1:53:45.320 watch out, leftists, scum. And now it matters that that's 1:53:45.360 --> 1:53:49.160 Daniel Borton because Daniel Borden was with Jacob Dix. They 1:53:49.160 --> 1:53:52.840 came together their friends from back home in Ohio. Daniel 1:53:52.840 --> 1:53:55.519 bordon is a name you might remember because the following 1:53:55.600 --> 1:53:57.920 day he nearly beat a young black man to death. 1:53:58.439 --> 1:54:01.040 So you know, he's looking down into the plaza and 1:54:01.120 --> 1:54:04.320 seeing these people and stating the intent, right, He's saying, like, 1:54:04.479 --> 1:54:06.679 you know, watch out, like I see you. There's more 1:54:06.720 --> 1:54:09.320 of us than there are of you. You better watch out. 1:54:09.840 --> 1:54:13.040 That is intimidation, right, Yeah. 1:54:13.160 --> 1:54:16.320 Seems like it. If I'm the judge, the case has 1:54:16.360 --> 1:54:17.760 been made. 1:54:17.920 --> 1:54:20.280 But they did not. I'm not though they didn't highlight 1:54:20.320 --> 1:54:23.880 this portion of the video. They just this long, uninterrupted 1:54:23.880 --> 1:54:27.120 presentation of video evidence without any sort of discussion of 1:54:27.800 --> 1:54:30.880 what any of these moments meant. Because moments after that, 1:54:31.000 --> 1:54:34.760 after Daniel Borden yells you're outnumbered Antifa, he shouldered a 1:54:34.800 --> 1:54:38.480 shoulder with Dix. A few seconds later, they're walking clockwise 1:54:38.480 --> 1:54:41.640 around the statue. They're starting to form that circle, that 1:54:41.760 --> 1:54:45.000 ring that would trap the counter protesters in. Borden looks 1:54:45.040 --> 1:54:48.320 at Dix again and says, why can't we confront them? 1:54:48.600 --> 1:54:51.400 And then they continue to walk side by side, taking 1:54:51.400 --> 1:54:54.040 their place in that ring of men closing off any 1:54:54.080 --> 1:54:57.880 path to safety. And you can see in photos that 1:54:58.000 --> 1:55:00.520 Jacob Dix is face to face with some of the 1:55:00.520 --> 1:55:03.320 counter protesters. He's not just in this sort of mob 1:55:03.360 --> 1:55:06.160 of people, in this sort of nebulous zone. He's in 1:55:06.200 --> 1:55:10.120 the inner ring of people who are choosing to physically 1:55:10.280 --> 1:55:14.840 trap the counter protesters. That is the intent that they 1:55:14.880 --> 1:55:18.560 needed to show the jury, and they didn't rebut the 1:55:18.640 --> 1:55:22.720 conjecture that he was only here because he loves Confederate statues, right, 1:55:22.760 --> 1:55:25.240 he has Confederate heritage. He cares about the monuments. 1:55:25.320 --> 1:55:30.680 Yeah, this is like prosecuting a drunk driver and having 1:55:31.240 --> 1:55:35.760 having a breathalyzer test and just not introducing it into evidence, 1:55:35.800 --> 1:55:37.880 being like, nah, I'm just going to be like, you know, 1:55:38.160 --> 1:55:41.200 vibes wise, it seems like he was probably drinking. Yeah, 1:55:41.320 --> 1:55:43.760 that's what it was. It was so irresponsible. 1:55:44.520 --> 1:55:47.000 The vibes were bad, and they were the vibes were bad, 1:55:47.000 --> 1:55:48.360 but that's not the legal standard. 1:55:48.440 --> 1:55:50.880 Vibes are terrible, but that's really not what you should be. 1:55:51.360 --> 1:55:53.640 You have a much better case to make based on 1:55:53.680 --> 1:55:55.640 the evidence easily available to you. 1:55:56.280 --> 1:55:58.880 If there was if none of this evidence existed, if 1:55:58.880 --> 1:56:02.240 this was all they had, maybe don't take it to trial. 1:56:02.880 --> 1:56:05.880 But this evidence was right there for them, the moment, 1:56:05.960 --> 1:56:08.000 the moment where they're looking down the steps that's in 1:56:08.040 --> 1:56:09.000 the video they played. 1:56:10.000 --> 1:56:12.320 I feel like there were at least six different people 1:56:12.360 --> 1:56:15.600 the prosecutor could have just like emailed and they would 1:56:15.600 --> 1:56:18.440 have basically put together the whole case for this person. 1:56:19.200 --> 1:56:22.920 It's just so available, right, you know. So the defense says, well, 1:56:22.960 --> 1:56:24.760 you know, he has Confederate heritage. You see here because 1:56:24.800 --> 1:56:28.440 of the statues. They could have rebutted that by showing 1:56:28.480 --> 1:56:31.200 the jury his discord posts where he was helping organize 1:56:31.280 --> 1:56:34.720 housing for at least eighty other Unite the Right attendees 1:56:35.040 --> 1:56:38.200 at a group of airbnbs which he called the Eagles 1:56:38.280 --> 1:56:41.040 Nest and from which he was helping organize rides to 1:56:41.080 --> 1:56:44.640 the rally in what they were calling Nazi uber. That's 1:56:44.640 --> 1:56:48.440 not about your Confederate heritage, is it. The Eagle's Nest 1:56:48.480 --> 1:56:51.040 was like Hitler's vacation house for people who aren't up 1:56:51.040 --> 1:56:52.560 on their their Hitler lore. 1:56:54.280 --> 1:56:57.920 Yeah they're hit Lore. If you will, they're hit Lore. 1:56:58.120 --> 1:56:58.560 Yeah. 1:56:58.880 --> 1:57:01.600 Yeah, I'm not proud of it, but that happened. 1:57:01.920 --> 1:57:04.360 That took me out for a second. And they didn't 1:57:04.360 --> 1:57:07.839 show him attending the Nazi rally in Pikeville in April 1:57:07.880 --> 1:57:10.280 of that same year. There was a photograph of him 1:57:10.280 --> 1:57:13.080 standing shoulder to shoulder with members of the Traditionalist Worker 1:57:13.120 --> 1:57:18.000 Party right arm extended a forty five degree angle, palm down. 1:57:18.280 --> 1:57:21.920 I think that says something about why he was there, right, 1:57:23.120 --> 1:57:25.200 And they didn't show his discord post about how he 1:57:25.320 --> 1:57:29.040 was getting really hyped about the rally, writing nothing can 1:57:29.080 --> 1:57:32.920 replace the feeling you get at a white nationalist rally. 1:57:33.600 --> 1:57:36.800 I don't know the evidence exists, right, and once you 1:57:36.880 --> 1:57:40.160 get to the base of the statue, that intimidation element 1:57:40.240 --> 1:57:43.800 required for the charge is clear. We know people were 1:57:43.840 --> 1:57:47.280 in reasonable fear of bodily harm because their bodies were harmed. 1:57:47.680 --> 1:57:50.560 The evidence of intent is not hard to find. The 1:57:50.600 --> 1:57:53.320 marchers saw the small group of counter protesters as they 1:57:53.360 --> 1:57:56.240 descended those stairs. They saw them from above, and they 1:57:56.400 --> 1:58:00.920 chose to proceed and surround them, Knowing they va outnumbered them. 1:58:01.440 --> 1:58:05.400 They hooted and cheered, screaming We're coming for you. As 1:58:05.440 --> 1:58:10.280 they encircled the statue. There were assigned marshals for the march, 1:58:10.520 --> 1:58:15.440 directing people in a clockwise fashion around the statue to 1:58:15.560 --> 1:58:19.760 form the circle. This was not an organic event, and 1:58:19.840 --> 1:58:23.839 as the ring closed, Richard Spencer's bodyguard, a now former Woburn, 1:58:23.880 --> 1:58:27.200 Massachusetts police officer, John Donnelly, can be heard in one 1:58:27.320 --> 1:58:30.440 video saying that we need to fill in over here 1:58:30.560 --> 1:58:35.600 to block these guys off. This was an intentional act. 1:58:36.120 --> 1:58:38.680 The defendant himself is visible in these videos as he 1:58:38.680 --> 1:58:41.800 moves down the steps, across the plaza and winds his 1:58:41.840 --> 1:58:44.760 way around the statue, and as the fighting breaks out, 1:58:45.000 --> 1:58:47.640 he holds his position in the inner ring of torch 1:58:47.680 --> 1:58:53.240 bearers who have these people trapped, unable to escape the violence. 1:58:53.280 --> 1:58:56.040 It doesn't matter that he did not commit these acts 1:58:56.040 --> 1:58:59.480 of violence. He was holding the line that trapped people 1:58:59.520 --> 1:59:03.800 inside of it, and his intent in that moment is inescapable. 1:59:05.280 --> 1:59:09.760 But the jury doesn't know that. It's just an incredible failure. 1:59:09.920 --> 1:59:13.920 Honestly, Yeah, yeah, I'm glad the case got thrown out. 1:59:14.040 --> 1:59:17.280 Is it possible that the next person to be prosecutor 1:59:17.320 --> 1:59:22.040 in this will have an IQ that rises above room temperature? 1:59:23.040 --> 1:59:27.640 So I asked several lawyers about some of the finer 1:59:27.680 --> 1:59:30.120 points of what happens with the mistrial, and I got 1:59:30.160 --> 1:59:33.520 different answers from all of them, because this is sort 1:59:33.560 --> 1:59:35.880 of like everything in this case is just a little 1:59:35.920 --> 1:59:36.520 bit fucked up. 1:59:36.560 --> 1:59:36.680 Right. 1:59:36.720 --> 1:59:39.400 We have a substitute judge, we have a special prosecutor, 1:59:39.400 --> 1:59:42.680 we have a mistrial. We've just like so many things 1:59:42.680 --> 1:59:45.160 that kind of mess it up a little bit. In 1:59:45.200 --> 1:59:48.280 the event of a mistrial, the prosecutor has the option 1:59:48.400 --> 1:59:50.600 to try the case again, Right, That's always the case. 1:59:50.640 --> 1:59:53.480 There's a mistrial, the prosecutor can say, eh, I'm gonna 1:59:53.560 --> 1:59:56.240 let it go. I'm just gonna let it go, or 1:59:56.280 --> 1:59:58.000 they can say no, we're gonna bring it again. We're 1:59:58.040 --> 1:59:59.640 gonna bring it again, and they don't have to bring 1:59:59.640 --> 2:00:01.480 it the same way. They can bring in different evidence, 2:00:01.520 --> 2:00:05.160 different witnesses. It's sort of a mulligan for everybody. Right 2:00:05.720 --> 2:00:08.520 what's not one hundred percent clear is whether the same 2:00:08.640 --> 2:00:11.520 special prosecutor tries it again or if it sort of 2:00:11.560 --> 2:00:14.440 goes back to Roulette. Several lawyers agreed that it would 2:00:14.480 --> 2:00:18.600 be the same prosecutor. I believe her office is under 2:00:18.600 --> 2:00:22.400 that impression. So right after the mistrial was declared, Shannon Taylor, 2:00:22.440 --> 2:00:25.240 the special prosecutor, said she does plan to try it again. 2:00:25.640 --> 2:00:29.040 That could just be bravado. It's unclear. There's a hearing 2:00:29.120 --> 2:00:31.839 date set for August for there's still some pending motions 2:00:31.840 --> 2:00:35.680 in the case, and so the funniest part is is 2:00:35.720 --> 2:00:38.480 that there's still a pending motion to dismiss from the defense. 2:00:38.960 --> 2:00:42.080 So technically, even if the prosecutor says, yes, I'm bringing 2:00:42.080 --> 2:00:45.160 this case again, I'm doing it, the judge could be like, actually, 2:00:45.160 --> 2:00:47.720 I'm dismissing it. So it could go a lot of 2:00:47.720 --> 2:00:50.800 ways right now, but at this point I'm not super 2:00:50.880 --> 2:00:55.200 hung up on the particularities of this defendant, right, I 2:00:55.200 --> 2:00:58.080 think this mistrial teaches us something sort of more generally 2:00:58.120 --> 2:01:01.720 about these cases and the other torch cases specifically obviously, 2:01:02.400 --> 2:01:04.760 but I think more generally, what does it look like 2:01:04.880 --> 2:01:07.880 for criminal charges to be a roadblock in the path 2:01:07.920 --> 2:01:10.960 of people involved in white supremacists organizing? You know, at 2:01:10.960 --> 2:01:12.480 the end of the day, whether or not some guy 2:01:12.480 --> 2:01:15.080 from Ohio serves four months of a six month sentence 2:01:15.080 --> 2:01:17.840 on a classic felony, it doesn't really matter, right, Like, 2:01:17.880 --> 2:01:20.520 this isn't this isn't an important. 2:01:20.200 --> 2:01:23.720 Yeah, it's whether or not anyone is actually scared off 2:01:23.960 --> 2:01:26.080 from organizing. 2:01:26.040 --> 2:01:28.440 Right, Like not to use the language of the prosecutor. 2:01:28.880 --> 2:01:30.720 You know, the master's house, the master's tools, this, that, 2:01:30.760 --> 2:01:31.160 and the other. 2:01:31.560 --> 2:01:35.560 But part of part of cotton to that logic, right, 2:01:35.640 --> 2:01:36.040 be honest. 2:01:36.080 --> 2:01:37.960 I mean he used those tools for a reason, right. 2:01:38.320 --> 2:01:40.960 But yeah, he used those tools for a reason. Like 2:01:41.000 --> 2:01:43.200 if you couldn't bring down the master's house with the 2:01:43.240 --> 2:01:46.000 master's tools, then what were all of those formerly t 2:01:46.000 --> 2:01:50.480 Czarist troops doing overthrowing the government with rifles the czar 2:01:50.600 --> 2:01:51.040 gave them? 2:01:51.360 --> 2:01:51.600 You know. 2:01:51.800 --> 2:01:53.880 But you know, part of what prosecutors talk about when 2:01:53.880 --> 2:01:56.879 they talk about charging, Maybe not these cases in particular, 2:01:56.920 --> 2:02:00.680 but just generally speaking, is that bringing cases is intended 2:02:00.720 --> 2:02:04.000 as a form of deterrence for everybody, right, that what 2:02:04.080 --> 2:02:06.440 happens to this guy is not the most important. But 2:02:06.520 --> 2:02:10.320 maybe some other guys see this and think, maybe that's 2:02:10.360 --> 2:02:12.280 not a good idea. And so I think in some 2:02:12.360 --> 2:02:15.360 of these cases, though, you can see, you know, maybe 2:02:15.400 --> 2:02:19.760 that this charge is interrupting a more significant pattern of behavior. Right, 2:02:19.800 --> 2:02:23.400 So nailing Thomas Rousseau on a felony would obviously change 2:02:23.480 --> 2:02:25.760 the trajectory for Patriot Front. I don't know if that 2:02:25.800 --> 2:02:28.800 would I don't know what that looks like at the end, 2:02:28.840 --> 2:02:32.280 but it certainly changes the trajectory. So Thomas Rousseau is 2:02:32.280 --> 2:02:35.200 set for trial in the fall. So he has been charged, 2:02:35.240 --> 2:02:36.920 and I think that will be an interesting case to 2:02:36.920 --> 2:02:39.600 follow because he has the same lawyer. And you know, 2:02:39.640 --> 2:02:42.080 if they end up charging Jason Kessler, that would just 2:02:42.160 --> 2:02:44.720 be really funny. You know, there's a lot of possible 2:02:44.760 --> 2:02:47.760 outcomes here. If they'd arrested these guys in real time 2:02:48.000 --> 2:02:50.760 that night, maybe the rally the next day would be different. 2:02:51.240 --> 2:02:53.960 If the cases had been brought six years ago. You know, 2:02:54.040 --> 2:02:56.480 maybe certain arcs of history would have bent differently. It 2:02:56.520 --> 2:03:00.000 would have broken some momentum, or discouraged some movement activity, 2:03:00.120 --> 2:03:03.520 or broken bonds between people who met there. Some of 2:03:03.560 --> 2:03:06.160 the guys who were there and could have been charged 2:03:06.160 --> 2:03:08.320 in real time went on to do some real damage 2:03:08.320 --> 2:03:11.200 in their personal lives and their communities. But I'm not 2:03:11.200 --> 2:03:13.920 sure that's a basket I want to put my eggs into. Right, 2:03:14.600 --> 2:03:18.680 if a court case takes a fascist out of the game, right, right, 2:03:18.720 --> 2:03:21.840 that's some kind of harm reduction, But it's not something 2:03:21.840 --> 2:03:25.320 you could count on, and honestly, it doesn't consistently reduce 2:03:25.360 --> 2:03:28.600 harm in the long run. You just can't get lost 2:03:28.600 --> 2:03:30.560 in the sort of what ifs of you know, what 2:03:30.600 --> 2:03:33.480 if the system worked better to actually help us, because 2:03:33.480 --> 2:03:36.200 it doesn't. That was never on the table. It's not 2:03:36.240 --> 2:03:38.120 like I'm saying, you know, well, we needed a conviction 2:03:38.200 --> 2:03:40.240 in this case because the courts are the ones who 2:03:40.240 --> 2:03:43.280 are going to protect us by putting this man in jail. Briefly, right, 2:03:43.320 --> 2:03:46.080 That's that's not the case. I think the lessons are 2:03:46.120 --> 2:03:49.480 immediately instructive to the prosecutor who tries the next one. Obviously, 2:03:49.760 --> 2:03:52.000 you know, watching the game tapes play better next time. 2:03:52.560 --> 2:03:54.120 You know, if they're going to put these cases on, 2:03:54.320 --> 2:03:56.680 they need to do it properly. I would rather see 2:03:56.720 --> 2:03:59.360 this not happen at all than watch it get fumbled 2:03:59.440 --> 2:04:01.680 like this, because that's just a victory for. 2:04:01.720 --> 2:04:02.600 Them, right right. 2:04:03.080 --> 2:04:06.480 Yeah, And it's a sharp reminder that the courts are 2:04:06.520 --> 2:04:10.680 not equipped to interrupt fascism or rein in white supremacy. 2:04:10.720 --> 2:04:12.520 That is not what they were built for. That it's 2:04:12.560 --> 2:04:16.400 not what this tool does. You are trying to screw 2:04:16.400 --> 2:04:19.280 it in with a hammer, because faced with a really 2:04:19.360 --> 2:04:23.360 clear opportunity to do that, the prosecutor shied away from them. 2:04:23.440 --> 2:04:25.360 You know, the state is not the secret weapon that 2:04:25.440 --> 2:04:27.960 is going to stop fascism for us or protect us 2:04:27.960 --> 2:04:30.320 from the fascists who want to stop us from stopping them. 2:04:30.360 --> 2:04:33.560 You know, at best, it is a banana peel on 2:04:33.600 --> 2:04:37.560 their Mario Kart track. You know, it is interesting to 2:04:37.560 --> 2:04:39.520 watch this play out, but I don't think it is 2:04:39.560 --> 2:04:45.200 some I don't think this will bring any sort of repair. Yeah, 2:04:45.240 --> 2:04:47.400 but it might ruin some guy's day, and I'll be 2:04:47.440 --> 2:04:48.280 there when it happens. 2:04:49.160 --> 2:04:52.440 I you know, I don't think it's worthless obviously. I think, 2:04:52.440 --> 2:04:54.280 in fact, one of the things I will point out 2:04:54.320 --> 2:04:56.400 since this is kind of ending on a doomer. And 2:04:56.480 --> 2:05:00.520 I think the I think the legal one lot that 2:05:00.680 --> 2:05:05.200 was launched by the survivors shall we say mm hm 2:05:05.520 --> 2:05:09.000 at Charlottesville against organizers and whatnot is a big part 2:05:09.000 --> 2:05:12.160 of why a lot of that most of that crew 2:05:12.240 --> 2:05:15.040 stopped being relevant, Like it did in fact damage them. 2:05:15.080 --> 2:05:17.520 Now did it disrupt and stop fascism nation? 2:05:17.600 --> 2:05:17.720 Why? 2:05:17.800 --> 2:05:20.520 Of course not. That was never in the cards, right, 2:05:20.600 --> 2:05:22.800 Like you're talking about trends and forces that are too 2:05:22.800 --> 2:05:27.320 big for a handful of very dedicated leftists to stop 2:05:27.400 --> 2:05:30.360 by suing some asshole. But like, you know, one thing 2:05:30.400 --> 2:05:32.400 people get wrong a lot is saying like, oh, you know, 2:05:32.400 --> 2:05:35.680 when a fucking what's his name got punched, that really 2:05:35.800 --> 2:05:38.280 uh knocked him out of public life. And it's like, no, 2:05:38.400 --> 2:05:41.960 Charlottesville came after that fucker got punched, Like it was 2:05:42.040 --> 2:05:45.280 the series of court cases that ruined his life really 2:05:45.320 --> 2:05:46.000 to an extent. 2:05:46.480 --> 2:05:48.280 And I think there's an important conversation to be how 2:05:48.320 --> 2:05:50.840 about what it means to win, right, Because if you're 2:05:50.920 --> 2:05:53.560 a lawyer, if you're a prosecutor, winning is really black 2:05:53.600 --> 2:05:56.160 and white. You you know, win a judgment, you win 2:05:56.200 --> 2:05:59.560 a conviction, but That's not how I view the courts 2:05:59.600 --> 2:06:01.840 as a tool in this process. Right That, like winning 2:06:01.880 --> 2:06:04.800 a conviction or actually getting paid out that judgment, that's 2:06:04.840 --> 2:06:06.600 not the victory we're looking for, right That, this is 2:06:06.640 --> 2:06:11.000 a tool for sort of chiseling away, and no single 2:06:11.040 --> 2:06:14.640 step gets you there. So I wouldn't say that these 2:06:14.720 --> 2:06:17.920 cases are not useful or they're not interesting. And that's 2:06:18.040 --> 2:06:21.240 why this isn't a huge disappointment, right that, Like what 2:06:21.360 --> 2:06:25.160 happens to any of these individual people isn't the point. 2:06:25.720 --> 2:06:26.960 This is just part of a process. 2:06:28.520 --> 2:06:32.920 Yeah, So I don't know, keep that in mind as 2:06:32.920 --> 2:06:34.960 you look at this stuff, like, because it's very easy 2:06:35.000 --> 2:06:37.160 to look at one case and just be like, oh, 2:06:37.160 --> 2:06:39.920 it's doomed. There's no point in trying any of this. 2:06:40.040 --> 2:06:42.600 It's like no. The actual the law fair that people 2:06:42.640 --> 2:06:48.040 have launched in response to Charlottesville has been a successful action, like, 2:06:48.080 --> 2:06:49.880 if you want to look at it kind of in 2:06:50.320 --> 2:06:53.080 military terms, it has been an offensive that has broadly 2:06:53.520 --> 2:06:55.160 achieved a number of its goals. 2:06:55.480 --> 2:06:58.360 The Assigns by Kessler lawsuit against the Unite the Right organizers, 2:06:58.720 --> 2:07:01.520 it's sort of established this playbook that's now being used 2:07:01.560 --> 2:07:05.200 by others. There are similar similarly structured lawsuits now being 2:07:05.240 --> 2:07:08.160 filed against other white supremacist groups, against White Lives Matter Ohio, 2:07:08.320 --> 2:07:11.960 against Patriot Front, and it is effective, and again not 2:07:12.080 --> 2:07:16.160 in the sense that the lawsuits will extract you know, money, judgments. 2:07:16.760 --> 2:07:18.920 Well that everyone's going to go to fucking prison, but 2:07:19.040 --> 2:07:21.520 it makes their lives miserable. Yeah. I just don't want 2:07:21.560 --> 2:07:23.320 people to walk away being like, well, there's no point 2:07:23.520 --> 2:07:27.320 in fighting this way, because there actually is. It works 2:07:27.680 --> 2:07:30.080 very well. It's just not a silver bullet. It's not 2:07:30.120 --> 2:07:34.240 a sports Ugly and messy and hard. And I will 2:07:34.320 --> 2:07:36.400 end at least by saying, you know, I know we 2:07:36.480 --> 2:07:39.400 have a lot of anti electoralist type people here. The 2:07:39.480 --> 2:07:42.000 one place you absolutely should vote, if that is a 2:07:42.040 --> 2:07:45.760 thing where you live, is elections for local judges, because 2:07:46.480 --> 2:07:49.120 that is a great way to at least reduce the 2:07:49.160 --> 2:07:52.160 odds that your friends go to prison. I know people, 2:07:52.360 --> 2:07:54.800 I have people I love who are not in prison 2:07:54.920 --> 2:07:57.680 because the judge they happened to draw wasn't a piece 2:07:57.720 --> 2:08:01.600 of shit. And you're really, you're really just hurting yourself 2:08:01.680 --> 2:08:03.760 if you don't, if you have the option to pick 2:08:03.800 --> 2:08:05.720 a judge who sucks less, and you don't try to 2:08:06.000 --> 2:08:07.560 that's where I land on that ship. 2:08:08.080 --> 2:08:09.440 There's a lot that we can do, and none of 2:08:09.440 --> 2:08:12.440 it's going to do it all. But Yep, in the meantime, 2:08:12.640 --> 2:08:15.960 I will continue spending whole days on that horrible wooden 2:08:16.000 --> 2:08:18.400 bench and I'll let you know how it goes. 2:08:19.640 --> 2:08:23.360 Yep, thank you Molly for continuing to engage with a 2:08:23.440 --> 2:08:25.840 system that is not very fun to engage with the 2:08:26.120 --> 2:08:30.240 necessary too. Well, everybody, that's the episode, good to hell, 2:08:30.680 --> 2:08:48.960 We love you. What's warring my crimes? This is it 2:08:49.040 --> 2:08:53.560 could happen here a podcast about things falling apart. And 2:08:54.000 --> 2:08:56.520 you know what all the kids these days you're talking 2:08:56.560 --> 2:09:00.520 about is war crimes. That was me being kind of liathe, 2:09:00.600 --> 2:09:04.440 but they actually are because you know what's continuing to 2:09:04.520 --> 2:09:07.960 happen to Gaza. More people than probably that I can 2:09:08.080 --> 2:09:11.720 recall in recent memory are talking about like war crimes, 2:09:11.960 --> 2:09:15.480 what it means to commit war crimes violations of international law, 2:09:16.200 --> 2:09:18.320 which is good because that's an important thing to be 2:09:18.440 --> 2:09:22.120 talking about. The downside of it is, as is often 2:09:22.160 --> 2:09:23.800 the case when people talk about things on the Internet, 2:09:23.840 --> 2:09:25.720 a lot of people are talking about war crimes and 2:09:25.800 --> 2:09:30.680 don't actually know what that means. So I figured, let's 2:09:30.720 --> 2:09:34.560 talk about like what war crimes is be do. And 2:09:34.680 --> 2:09:38.920 I'm going to bring on James Stout, fellow war crimes watcher, 2:09:39.520 --> 2:09:42.920 to talk with me about what war crimes be James, 2:09:43.280 --> 2:09:45.160 what's your favorite war crime? 2:09:45.440 --> 2:09:45.880 My favorite? 2:09:46.000 --> 2:09:48.919 That's a difficult one, isn't it because I'm yeah. 2:09:48.800 --> 2:09:50.720 Because I asked in the best season a doctor who 2:09:50.800 --> 2:09:51.600 you know it is. 2:09:51.680 --> 2:09:53.680 Yeah. What I like to do with reference to war 2:09:53.760 --> 2:09:55.480 crimes is I wake up, right, and I sort of 2:09:55.560 --> 2:09:57.320 you know, you're just waking up. You get your phone 2:09:57.320 --> 2:09:59.640 off the charge, you there, and then you look and 2:09:59.680 --> 2:10:02.280 there's message on telegram. But that's how that's how I 2:10:02.400 --> 2:10:05.480 consume war crimes, just a random If it's on telegram, 2:10:05.560 --> 2:10:07.800 there's a forty percent chance it's a violation of the 2:10:08.040 --> 2:10:11.959 eighteen sixty four Geneva Convention or the subsequent Geneva Conventions. 2:10:12.040 --> 2:10:15.320 Yes, so I wanted to do this because I do 2:10:15.480 --> 2:10:18.320 think that one of the things that is unfortunate kind 2:10:18.360 --> 2:10:21.680 of about the colloquial way in which, like the positive 2:10:21.760 --> 2:10:24.680 side of the way social media has impacted the coverage 2:10:24.680 --> 2:10:27.280 of conflicts, is that we are now seeing like for 2:10:27.360 --> 2:10:29.320 the first time, this is not the first time Israel 2:10:29.360 --> 2:10:31.480 has killed a shitload of Palestinians. This is the first 2:10:31.520 --> 2:10:34.879 time that like a really substantial majority of the American 2:10:34.960 --> 2:10:41.200 populace has been like and that's bad. Yeah, And that 2:10:41.280 --> 2:10:43.400 owes a lot to the way in which information is 2:10:43.400 --> 2:10:45.280 spread on social media. One of the downsides of that 2:10:45.600 --> 2:10:49.520 is because this is happening in kind of a colloquial diction, 2:10:50.640 --> 2:10:54.640 people are not always super accurate in a term like 2:10:54.760 --> 2:10:57.880 war crimes in particular, often gets used to mean like 2:10:58.080 --> 2:11:01.000 anything I don't like that happened in a war. And 2:11:01.080 --> 2:11:03.200 there are a lot of things that happen like war 2:11:03.400 --> 2:11:06.839 is bad, and everything that happens in war nearly everything 2:11:07.040 --> 2:11:09.520 is really bad. But most of the things that happen 2:11:09.600 --> 2:11:12.080 in war are not war crimes. And I believe me, 2:11:12.080 --> 2:11:14.080 I'm not setting us up to say that, like Israel 2:11:14.200 --> 2:11:16.560 is not committing war crimes in Gaza, they are. I 2:11:16.600 --> 2:11:18.720 actually have a lot of issues with other kinds of 2:11:18.800 --> 2:11:22.160 conflicts and things that happen in conflicts that get discussed 2:11:22.160 --> 2:11:23.920 as if they were war crimes that I think Muddy's 2:11:23.960 --> 2:11:25.840 the issue We're going to be talking trying to make 2:11:25.880 --> 2:11:31.040 it clear like what international law actually covers and what 2:11:31.520 --> 2:11:34.200 kind of that coverage means. And all that stuff, so 2:11:34.280 --> 2:11:37.560 that hopefully, you know, people can have a little bit 2:11:37.600 --> 2:11:40.160 more information going forward when they try to talk about 2:11:40.280 --> 2:11:42.800 like is this something that's just bad that happens in 2:11:42.880 --> 2:11:45.680 war versus is this a war crime, because that actually 2:11:45.760 --> 2:11:49.200 matters when it comes to, you know, the theoretical idea 2:11:49.360 --> 2:11:52.240 of a rules based international order in prosecuting this stuff. 2:11:52.360 --> 2:11:54.400 So the first thing we have to get into is 2:11:54.400 --> 2:11:58.480 the idea that, like, war crimes are a pretty recent conception. 2:11:58.720 --> 2:12:01.160 The idea that like there would be a thing that 2:12:01.240 --> 2:12:04.480 you could do as a country that the international community 2:12:04.520 --> 2:12:07.400 would come in and have beef with does not go 2:12:07.640 --> 2:12:12.760 back very far, right, Yeah, we are talking the eighteenth century, 2:12:12.840 --> 2:12:15.440 So really the last two hundred years has been when 2:12:16.080 --> 2:12:18.920 this really all started to get codified. We start with 2:12:18.960 --> 2:12:22.320 the Geneva Convention in eighteen sixty four. There are several 2:12:22.400 --> 2:12:25.480 Geneva conventions. In nineteen forty nine, there's I think two 2:12:25.560 --> 2:12:28.040 more in nineteen seventy seven. You also have the Hague 2:12:28.080 --> 2:12:30.920 Conventions in eighteen ninety nine and nineteen oh seven, and 2:12:31.360 --> 2:12:34.800 these are all so part of what that should suggest 2:12:34.920 --> 2:12:37.360 is that like, even within the kind of the realm 2:12:37.400 --> 2:12:39.600 of codified war crimes law, it's kind of been a 2:12:39.920 --> 2:12:43.800 slap dash catches catch can a fair right. Like, people 2:12:43.880 --> 2:12:47.840 have come together and made rules that were largely based 2:12:47.880 --> 2:12:50.240 on the shit that either had just happened or that 2:12:50.320 --> 2:12:54.240 they thought was about to happen. And one of the 2:12:54.360 --> 2:12:57.840 consequences of this is that the actual legislation about like 2:12:57.920 --> 2:13:00.640 what is and isn't illegal to do in war is 2:13:00.800 --> 2:13:03.760 really uneven. A great example of this would be the 2:13:04.040 --> 2:13:07.480 idea of dumb dumb bullets. Right. This is a thing 2:13:07.640 --> 2:13:10.000 that you get kind of around the turn of the century, 2:13:10.040 --> 2:13:14.000 which is so bullets, most bullets that are used in 2:13:14.120 --> 2:13:16.680 war are what are called full metal jacket, right, And 2:13:16.760 --> 2:13:20.000 that just means that there's a copper generally jacket around 2:13:20.440 --> 2:13:24.080 the lead bullet and there's not like a hole in 2:13:24.160 --> 2:13:27.000 the middle or whatever like a modern Like if you 2:13:27.080 --> 2:13:29.000 go up to a police officer and take his gun, 2:13:29.040 --> 2:13:32.880 which is very easy and safe to do legally, that 2:13:33.040 --> 2:13:35.400 was a joke, you will notice that all of the 2:13:35.440 --> 2:13:37.920 bullets in that gun have like a little divot in 2:13:38.000 --> 2:13:39.800 the middle of them, right, And the purpose of this 2:13:39.920 --> 2:13:41.880 divot is so that when the bullet hits a person, 2:13:42.440 --> 2:13:45.400 it transfers more of its force into the meat of 2:13:45.480 --> 2:13:47.520 that person's body. This is the same with any bullet 2:13:47.560 --> 2:13:50.760 that like someone carries for self defense generally, and this 2:13:50.880 --> 2:13:53.400 is actually a safety device in a way because bullets 2:13:53.440 --> 2:13:55.560 like this do not penetrate as much. And you don't 2:13:55.640 --> 2:13:58.400 want bullets that you're using in like an urban area 2:13:58.480 --> 2:14:00.879 for self defense to penetrate as much because that increases 2:14:00.920 --> 2:14:03.320 the risk that if you miss or if you hit 2:14:03.440 --> 2:14:05.960 that person, that it goes through them and hits something else. Right, 2:14:06.400 --> 2:14:08.640 But there was an understanding around the turn of the 2:14:08.720 --> 2:14:12.839 century that these bullets, which initially were not manufactured. Soldiers 2:14:12.880 --> 2:14:16.120 would literally like cut like crosses in the tops of 2:14:16.160 --> 2:14:16.760 their bullets. 2:14:17.200 --> 2:14:18.760 I used to do this when I was a child. 2:14:18.880 --> 2:14:21.600 I would spend a lot of time shooting rabbits. It 2:14:21.680 --> 2:14:22.880 was kind of my thing that I did when I 2:14:23.040 --> 2:14:24.960 was a kid, and we used to dumb dumb that 2:14:25.320 --> 2:14:25.880 rifle pede. 2:14:26.120 --> 2:14:29.720 Yeah. Yeah, And there's this there was this understanding that 2:14:29.840 --> 2:14:36.400 developed that this should be illegal because it causes additional harm. Now, 2:14:36.720 --> 2:14:39.680 the specific I think this is like like line twenty 2:14:39.880 --> 2:14:44.160 or something from the Geneva Convention. But it's employing weapons, 2:14:44.280 --> 2:14:47.000 projectiles and material and methods of warfare which are of 2:14:47.040 --> 2:14:50.360 a nature to cause superfluous injury or a necessary suffering, 2:14:50.480 --> 2:14:53.240 or which are inherently indiscriminate in violation of the International 2:14:53.320 --> 2:14:56.600 Law of Armed Conflict. Provided such weapons, projectiles and material 2:14:56.720 --> 2:14:58.520 and the methods of warfare are the subject of a 2:14:58.560 --> 2:15:02.200 comprehensive prohibition are included in annex to this statute by 2:15:02.240 --> 2:15:06.160 an amendment in accordance with the relevant anyway, So you're 2:15:06.200 --> 2:15:09.920 not supposed to employing employed bullets which quote flatten or 2:15:09.960 --> 2:15:12.320 expand easily in the human body, such as bullets with 2:15:12.360 --> 2:15:14.560 the hard envelope which does not entirely cover its core 2:15:14.680 --> 2:15:17.920 or is pierced with incisions. You're not supposed to employ asphyxiating, 2:15:17.960 --> 2:15:20.920 poisonous or their gases and all analogous liquids, materials or 2:15:20.960 --> 2:15:24.520 devices that one obviously came about as a result of 2:15:25.000 --> 2:15:27.920 the horror in World War One, right, people start using 2:15:27.920 --> 2:15:30.720 a lot of these poisoned gas weapons, and it's decided 2:15:30.760 --> 2:15:33.360 by the international community that that absolutely should not be 2:15:33.440 --> 2:15:35.839 allowed to be done. You're not allowed to employ poison 2:15:35.960 --> 2:15:39.720 or poisoned weapons. Now, most people can see look at 2:15:39.760 --> 2:15:42.520 that and be like, well, yeah, I mean, hollow points sound, 2:15:43.080 --> 2:15:46.760 extramine poison sounds extramine gas sounds extramine. You shouldn't be 2:15:46.800 --> 2:15:49.360 able to use those extra meine weapons in war. But 2:15:50.040 --> 2:15:52.440 and I don't have a problem with trying to limit 2:15:52.640 --> 2:15:56.280 horrifying weapons, But we still allow, for example, artillery shells 2:15:56.320 --> 2:15:59.040 that are meant to create huge amounts of shrapnel that 2:15:59.160 --> 2:16:01.920 are their whole purpose is to cause grievous wounds to 2:16:02.280 --> 2:16:05.080 a large number of people in a large area. And 2:16:05.160 --> 2:16:08.240 from where I'm standing, I don't think that like that's 2:16:08.960 --> 2:16:11.640 less horrible than a hollow point. I actually think that's 2:16:11.680 --> 2:16:14.600 probably a lot worse than a hollow point. Yes, Yeah, 2:16:15.520 --> 2:16:17.080 So one of the first things that you get when 2:16:17.080 --> 2:16:19.000 you look at what our war crimes is they're not 2:16:19.120 --> 2:16:23.400 actually all like things that you morally should have an 2:16:23.480 --> 2:16:25.240 issue with. Like, really, if you are looking at all 2:16:25.240 --> 2:16:28.200 of the weapons employed in war today, there's no reason 2:16:28.240 --> 2:16:30.640 a hollow point should frighten you, Right, there's so many 2:16:30.720 --> 2:16:32.920 worse weapons right now. On the other hand of that, 2:16:33.040 --> 2:16:36.200 poison gas is much worse than the vast majority of 2:16:36.280 --> 2:16:38.119 weapons that are used in war today, And I think 2:16:38.120 --> 2:16:41.360 it's good that that's a crime. Yeah, doesn't stop people 2:16:41.440 --> 2:16:44.600 using it, doesn't stop like Bashar al Assade, Right. 2:16:44.840 --> 2:16:47.240 End of the show. I was just thinking about barrel bombs. 2:16:47.240 --> 2:16:50.240 I don't know if barrel bombs are specifically prohibited, and 2:16:50.600 --> 2:16:52.360 they are not, there would be a way to do 2:16:52.480 --> 2:16:55.199 that really, that just a barrel stuff would explos. 2:16:55.000 --> 2:16:57.360 Well, because I mean they were invented by Israel. Actually, 2:16:58.000 --> 2:17:00.280 I think forty seven is the first U It might 2:17:00.320 --> 2:17:01.720 have been like fifty yeah, but I believe it was 2:17:01.760 --> 2:17:04.600 forty seven was the first recorded use of Because if 2:17:04.640 --> 2:17:07.199 you have planes and you have reliable access to planes, 2:17:07.480 --> 2:17:11.440 but you know, can't reliably manufacture advanced like rockets and 2:17:11.440 --> 2:17:13.960 shit to shoot from them, a barrel bomb's very easy 2:17:14.040 --> 2:17:16.240 to make. You're basically just taking a fifty gallon drum 2:17:16.840 --> 2:17:19.720 and filling it with gunpowder and shrapnel, right, Like, I 2:17:19.760 --> 2:17:21.800 mean it's a little more complicated than that, but yeah. 2:17:21.680 --> 2:17:23.960 Yeah, the Huntern Memba have started using them as sair 2:17:23.959 --> 2:17:25.640 access to Russia munitions drives up. 2:17:25.840 --> 2:17:28.240 Yeah, and there's you know, again, that's one of those 2:17:28.240 --> 2:17:30.280 things where it's like that's not technically a war crime 2:17:30.920 --> 2:17:33.039 other than that if you it can be if you're 2:17:33.040 --> 2:17:36.440 like using it indiscriminately in a civilian like against civilians. 2:17:36.480 --> 2:17:39.800 But like also they basically no one ever gets prosecuted 2:17:39.840 --> 2:17:40.320 for doing that. 2:17:40.600 --> 2:17:43.160 So yeah, yeah, right, this is the case with many 2:17:43.200 --> 2:17:43.760 of these things. 2:17:44.200 --> 2:17:48.200 And again, like barrel bombs can be legal, hollow points can't. 2:17:48.240 --> 2:17:51.680 That doesn't really make sense. It's also like I will say, 2:17:51.720 --> 2:17:54.920 I've witnessed at least one war crime in person that 2:17:55.040 --> 2:17:57.240 I really didn't feel like was a war crime, which 2:17:57.240 --> 2:17:59.760 when I was embedded with the Iraqi Army, they tear 2:17:59.800 --> 2:18:02.360 gasket an Isis sniper to get him out of his 2:18:02.480 --> 2:18:05.680 position so they could kill him, and that's definitely illegal. 2:18:06.040 --> 2:18:08.280 And also, of all of the things I saw done 2:18:08.320 --> 2:18:11.200 in that war, like the fact that somebody threw a 2:18:11.280 --> 2:18:14.600 tear gas grenade did not upset me over much, right, 2:18:14.800 --> 2:18:17.560 Like the fact that I was watching apartment buildings get 2:18:17.640 --> 2:18:20.320 blown up by Apache helicopters really upset me a lot 2:18:20.400 --> 2:18:21.800 more than a little bit of tear gas. 2:18:22.320 --> 2:18:24.760 Yeah, it's one of these like very sort of like, yeah, 2:18:24.760 --> 2:18:27.200 if you want to take the strict legalistic definition, yeah, 2:18:27.240 --> 2:18:29.800 that was a war crime. Yeah, you any war crime 2:18:29.879 --> 2:18:31.760 that was committed that day maybe yeah. 2:18:32.200 --> 2:18:35.400 Yeah. So anyway, I let I want to get into 2:18:35.440 --> 2:18:37.120 some of this in a little bit more of an 2:18:37.240 --> 2:18:39.959 organized fashion. But first let's let's have a little bit 2:18:39.959 --> 2:18:40.560 of an ad break. 2:18:51.360 --> 2:18:51.600 Ah. 2:18:52.240 --> 2:18:55.800 So we're back and we're talking about war crimes. So 2:18:55.840 --> 2:18:57.680 I want to just kind of go through and with 2:18:57.800 --> 2:19:00.920 some commentary. Straight up, Lee re a large chunk of 2:19:00.959 --> 2:19:04.400 the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, Article eight, 2:19:04.840 --> 2:19:07.520 which largely defines war crimes as that term has a 2:19:07.640 --> 2:19:11.560 meaning in a legal sense, and it defines war crimes 2:19:11.879 --> 2:19:15.039 as grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of twelfth August 2:19:15.120 --> 2:19:18.039 nineteen forty nine, namely any of the following acts against 2:19:18.080 --> 2:19:20.400 persons or property committed against the provisions of the relevant 2:19:20.440 --> 2:19:25.640 Geneva Convention. These include wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, 2:19:25.720 --> 2:19:30.320 including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering, serious injury to 2:19:30.400 --> 2:19:34.360 body or health, extensive destruction and appropriation of property not 2:19:34.640 --> 2:19:38.279 justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly, 2:19:38.720 --> 2:19:41.360 compelling a prisoner of war or other protected person to 2:19:41.440 --> 2:19:44.640 serve in the forces of a hostile power. Wilfully depriving 2:19:44.680 --> 2:19:46.720 a prisoner of war or other protected person of the 2:19:46.840 --> 2:19:50.520 rights of fair and regular trial, unlawful deportation or transfer 2:19:50.640 --> 2:19:56.000 or unlawful confinement, and taking of hostages right and you'll notice, 2:19:56.280 --> 2:19:59.240 among other things, a lot of that is stuff that 2:19:59.320 --> 2:20:02.000 you can find Israeli soldiers doing at TikTok, right. 2:20:02.280 --> 2:20:04.359 Yeah, yeah, streaming themselves doing. 2:20:04.320 --> 2:20:07.080 Yeah, I mean particularly the clear not maybe not the clearest, 2:20:07.120 --> 2:20:08.560 but one that comes up to me just because of 2:20:08.600 --> 2:20:11.160 some stuff I've seen of like soldiers posing with like 2:20:11.400 --> 2:20:16.480 stolen canes from gosms who presumably were disabled and no 2:20:16.640 --> 2:20:19.560 longer have their canes for whatever terrible reason. Like these 2:20:19.640 --> 2:20:22.720 kind of like joking photos. That's a destruction and appropriation 2:20:22.800 --> 2:20:24.600 of property. Right, you have a lot of videos of 2:20:24.640 --> 2:20:29.080 soldiers like going through people's property, taking stuff, destroying stuff 2:20:29.160 --> 2:20:32.760 like those are war crimes you are not as a soldier. Obviously, 2:20:33.320 --> 2:20:35.680 property will get destroyed in gunfights, it can get just 2:20:35.879 --> 2:20:37.920 like so there's part of why it's kind of hard 2:20:37.959 --> 2:20:40.120 to this stuff is not prosecuted as much as it 2:20:40.200 --> 2:20:41.960 ought to be. But you are not supposed to just 2:20:42.040 --> 2:20:44.680 fuck with people shit as a soldier. That is legal, 2:20:44.920 --> 2:20:47.280 you know. Is it one of the war crimes that 2:20:47.400 --> 2:20:50.959 is probably least prosecuted and most common. Absolutely, I think 2:20:51.000 --> 2:20:52.400 that that is very fair to say. 2:20:52.480 --> 2:20:55.840 Yeah, Look, Boris Johnson stole stuff from Saddama Saint's Palace 2:20:55.920 --> 2:20:58.560 in right, right, you know, like he's yet to be 2:20:58.640 --> 2:21:00.080 called today, that. 2:21:00.080 --> 2:21:01.360 Would be one of those, Like I don't know, I 2:21:01.400 --> 2:21:03.080 don't like Boris Johnson, but also I don't have a 2:21:03.120 --> 2:21:05.599 problem with anyone stealing from Saddam Hush. 2:21:05.320 --> 2:21:09.119 Exactly specifically, Yeah, of all the bullshit he's done. 2:21:09.560 --> 2:21:11.840 But this is I mean, that's one of those because 2:21:11.959 --> 2:21:14.240 I would say a lot of soldiers I know who 2:21:14.320 --> 2:21:17.280 have been and maybe didn't even realize themselves that what 2:21:17.320 --> 2:21:18.920 they were doing was committing a war crime. But just 2:21:19.000 --> 2:21:21.440 like you're in somebody's house, they are gone, they ran, 2:21:22.040 --> 2:21:25.000 and like you wind up fucking with shit like it happens. 2:21:25.640 --> 2:21:28.560 I think what we're seeing, I think willfully is kind 2:21:28.600 --> 2:21:30.959 of an important term here, right, And I think that's 2:21:31.320 --> 2:21:33.280 really what we've seen very clearly in a lot of 2:21:33.360 --> 2:21:37.000 these IDF tiktoks, right, is people taking glee in the 2:21:37.120 --> 2:21:40.840 destruction of property. And I think that's very easy to 2:21:41.600 --> 2:21:42.520 prove as a war crime. 2:21:43.160 --> 2:21:45.560 I think anyone can make a moral distinction right between. 2:21:45.640 --> 2:21:48.920 Like I was recently in Rajava and I was talking 2:21:48.959 --> 2:21:50.680 to some friends and they were talking about how they 2:21:51.680 --> 2:21:54.320 a lot of people died in ied blasts because they 2:21:54.400 --> 2:21:58.560 were going into buildings to try and get food or tea, right, sugar. Yeah, 2:21:58.800 --> 2:22:01.160 there's a distinction between going into the kitchen of abandoned 2:22:01.160 --> 2:22:04.280 building and taking some some sugar or whatever rice. 2:22:04.440 --> 2:22:04.600 You know. 2:22:05.120 --> 2:22:09.000 Then Yeah, these guys going through women's underwear rulers taking 2:22:09.040 --> 2:22:10.160 pictures with their underwear. 2:22:10.480 --> 2:22:13.280 Yeah, yeah, I know some some US Marines who like 2:22:13.360 --> 2:22:16.520 happened upon a cigarette factory during the invasion. I had 2:22:16.600 --> 2:22:19.440 like the uncut cigarettes that are like five feet long, 2:22:19.480 --> 2:22:21.360 and they just started like smoking up on them. I 2:22:21.400 --> 2:22:24.120 guess that's destruction of property. Probably not going to be 2:22:24.200 --> 2:22:27.199 my priority as the ICZ, but it also doesn't seem 2:22:27.320 --> 2:22:29.840 like the clearer stuff is their priority. So I don't know. 2:22:29.959 --> 2:22:34.080 Free my man with the five foot cigarette? He did? Yeah? Yeah. 2:22:34.240 --> 2:22:34.280 So. 2:22:35.240 --> 2:22:39.800 Other war crimes include intentionally directing attacks against the civilian 2:22:39.879 --> 2:22:43.920 population as such, or against individual civilians not taking part 2:22:44.000 --> 2:22:46.879 in hostilities. There's a video going around right now man 2:22:46.959 --> 2:22:49.840 in his fifties in Gaza who was working a market 2:22:49.920 --> 2:22:54.560 stall and was shot by an Israeli drone just executed. 2:22:54.920 --> 2:22:57.800 There's no way to describe that other than intentionally directing 2:22:57.800 --> 2:23:00.600 an attack against a civilian, not to making direct part 2:23:00.680 --> 2:23:03.959 in hostilities. That is a war crime. That's one example 2:23:04.000 --> 2:23:06.080 of I mean, that's just the clearest video that I 2:23:06.280 --> 2:23:07.000 saw recently. 2:23:07.200 --> 2:23:10.720 Right, Yeah, I heard from people who listen. I think 2:23:11.200 --> 2:23:13.040 I think this was in the episode, but when we 2:23:13.080 --> 2:23:14.640 talk to our friends at PK Guy that they were 2:23:14.640 --> 2:23:17.200 talking about one of the members of their group was 2:23:17.280 --> 2:23:20.879 recovering bodies from a bombed building and was shot by 2:23:20.879 --> 2:23:23.840 a quad coptail like not like a drone, like ten 2:23:23.920 --> 2:23:27.080 thousand feet in the air, dropping a missile like a drone. Yeah, 2:23:27.240 --> 2:23:28.840 like in the air, firing. 2:23:28.680 --> 2:23:30.760 A drone like you can buy at a fucking best 2:23:30.840 --> 2:23:32.400 Buy that's been modified. Yeah. 2:23:32.480 --> 2:23:34.920 Yeah, that shoots like it shoots a rifle, like just 2:23:35.240 --> 2:23:38.040 like a soldier to shoot a rifle where the operator 2:23:38.160 --> 2:23:41.800 is looking and seeing that person and pressing a button 2:23:41.840 --> 2:23:46.000 to fire bullet. It's not collateral damage. It's deliberate civilians. 2:23:46.760 --> 2:23:50.480 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, continue from that list of war crimes. 2:23:50.840 --> 2:23:53.959 Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which 2:23:53.959 --> 2:23:57.400 are not military objectives. A great example of this that's 2:23:57.480 --> 2:24:00.960 been happening in Gaza in particular is destruct to mosques, right, 2:24:02.480 --> 2:24:05.279 very clear, civilian objects. Now, there are exceptions. For example, 2:24:05.720 --> 2:24:09.000 one thing that does sometimes happen. I don't think it happened. 2:24:09.040 --> 2:24:11.240 It certainly have not seen evidence of it happening often 2:24:11.560 --> 2:24:14.920 in most of the places where there are attacks on mosques, 2:24:14.959 --> 2:24:19.520 but like periodically, like if somebody, if a fighter, a 2:24:19.600 --> 2:24:22.600 military unit sets up inside a mosque or right, or 2:24:22.680 --> 2:24:25.000 a church or whatever, which happened in World War Two 2:24:25.000 --> 2:24:26.680 a lot, Right, you would have like churches used as 2:24:26.680 --> 2:24:30.280 strong points because they're well made buildings. You can attack that, right, 2:24:30.400 --> 2:24:33.360 Like it's not like magical, right, Like you can't suddenly 2:24:33.480 --> 2:24:35.920 not attack soldiers who are shooting at you from a church. 2:24:36.200 --> 2:24:38.680 But you are not supposed to intentionally direct attacks against 2:24:38.720 --> 2:24:43.480 civilian objects that are not military objectives, intentionally directing attacks 2:24:43.480 --> 2:24:47.400 against personnel installations, materiel units, or vehicles involved in a 2:24:47.560 --> 2:24:51.039 humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission in accordance with the Charter 2:24:51.120 --> 2:24:53.320 of the United Nations, as long as they are entitled 2:24:53.320 --> 2:24:55.760 to the protection given to civilians or civilian objects under 2:24:55.800 --> 2:24:59.280 international law of armed conflict. Best example of this from 2:24:59.280 --> 2:25:03.800 Gazzer recent would be those World Kitchen employees and their 2:25:03.959 --> 2:25:07.920 bodyguards who were essentially murdered by the Israelis. Right, very clear, 2:25:08.040 --> 2:25:12.640 internationally recognized humanitarian assistance very clear war crime if you 2:25:12.680 --> 2:25:15.360 can prove it was intentional. I'm sure there's you know, 2:25:15.520 --> 2:25:20.280 that's a court case, right, but I think pretty clear. 2:25:20.720 --> 2:25:22.800 And then there is intentionally launching an attack in the 2:25:22.879 --> 2:25:25.440 knowledge that such attack will cause incident at loss of 2:25:25.520 --> 2:25:29.040 life or injury to civilians, or damage to civilian objects, 2:25:29.120 --> 2:25:31.920 or widespread, long term and severe damage to the natural environment, 2:25:31.920 --> 2:25:34.279 which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete 2:25:34.320 --> 2:25:38.080 and direct overall military advantage and dissipated. This is one 2:25:38.080 --> 2:25:39.800 of the top things that is a war crime that 2:25:39.959 --> 2:25:43.000 never gets punished because it is so hard, because that 2:25:43.720 --> 2:25:45.560 it seemed like most I would say, most of what 2:25:45.680 --> 2:25:48.760 I have seen planes do in war seems like it 2:25:48.920 --> 2:25:50.680 falls under this where it's like, wow, that's a lot 2:25:50.760 --> 2:25:53.520 of environmental damage, a lot of incidental loss of life 2:25:53.560 --> 2:25:55.960 and injury, but is it excessive in relation to the 2:25:56.040 --> 2:25:59.680 concrete and direct overall military advantage. Well, the people ordering 2:25:59.720 --> 2:26:02.879 those air strikes would say no, right, and like yeah, 2:26:03.280 --> 2:26:05.080 And that is one of those things where it's like, well, 2:26:05.120 --> 2:26:09.080 I know what looks like crime to me, Yeah, But 2:26:09.720 --> 2:26:11.720 could I win an ICC case about that? 2:26:11.840 --> 2:26:12.200 I don't know. 2:26:12.879 --> 2:26:13.000 Now. 2:26:13.080 --> 2:26:15.160 I want to actually move over to talk about Ukraine 2:26:15.240 --> 2:26:17.920 here because I think that that number one doesn't happen 2:26:18.040 --> 2:26:19.760 enough on the left, and I think there's some really good, 2:26:20.040 --> 2:26:23.520 clear examples of Russian war crimes here, because one thing 2:26:23.560 --> 2:26:25.760 that you're not allowed to do is quote attacking or 2:26:25.840 --> 2:26:29.440 bombarding by whatever means towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which 2:26:29.440 --> 2:26:33.080 are undefended and which are not military objectives. And both 2:26:33.120 --> 2:26:35.280 of those last two points make it very clear that 2:26:35.440 --> 2:26:38.680 the Russian military committed war crimes against Ukraine from March 2:26:38.760 --> 2:26:41.320 fourth to March thirty first, twenty twenty two, when they 2:26:41.400 --> 2:26:44.160 occupied the town of Buka, which was about it is, 2:26:44.200 --> 2:26:47.240 about thirty kilometers north of Kiv. This is one of 2:26:47.240 --> 2:26:49.960 the best, probably the best documented Russian war crime in 2:26:50.160 --> 2:26:52.680 Ukraine at the moment. And I'm not saying that this 2:26:52.840 --> 2:26:55.360 is only it's not nearly the only, it's just like 2:26:55.640 --> 2:27:00.720 a particularly well documented example. As of this point, you know, 2:27:01.080 --> 2:27:04.480 we're almost two years past when Buka got liberated. The 2:27:04.560 --> 2:27:07.120 bodies of more than a thousand civilians have been discovered 2:27:07.160 --> 2:27:10.120 in the Buca region. At least about six hundred and 2:27:10.200 --> 2:27:13.160 fifty people are known to have been executed by the 2:27:13.280 --> 2:27:18.880 Russian army and these our pretty hideous mass executions. A 2:27:18.959 --> 2:27:21.240 lot of people were held for a week or two 2:27:21.360 --> 2:27:25.080 prior to being executed. There's significant evidence of torture of 2:27:25.200 --> 2:27:29.640 beatings of civilians before their summary execution. And yeah, it's 2:27:31.760 --> 2:27:33.800 a very clear example of a war crime. Like, I 2:27:33.879 --> 2:27:36.920 don't know how else to say it. I will read 2:27:36.959 --> 2:27:39.600 a quote from this Human Rights Watch article that interviewed 2:27:39.640 --> 2:27:44.640 some funeral home workers in Buka. Another funeral homeworker, Sergei Makyuk, 2:27:44.640 --> 2:27:47.280 who helped collect bodies, said that he personally collected about 2:27:47.280 --> 2:27:49.520 two hundred bodies from the streets since the Russian invasion 2:27:49.560 --> 2:27:52.040 began on February twenty fourth. Most of the victims were men, 2:27:52.160 --> 2:27:54.360 he said, but some were women and children. Almost all 2:27:54.400 --> 2:27:56.680 of them had bullet wounds, he said, including around fifty 2:27:56.680 --> 2:27:59.560 whose hands were tied and whose bodies had signs of torture. 2:28:00.000 --> 2:28:02.640 Bodies with hands tied strongly suggests that the victims had 2:28:02.680 --> 2:28:05.959 been detained and summarily executed. And that's a I mean, 2:28:06.000 --> 2:28:08.360 a thousand pitce a hideous war crime, right, Like, that's 2:28:09.280 --> 2:28:13.720 a mass killing of civilians in a crucially there's no 2:28:13.959 --> 2:28:16.960 argument and one way in which civilians always die are 2:28:17.080 --> 2:28:20.160 killed in war, and it's not usually a war crime 2:28:20.200 --> 2:28:23.400 because it generally happens while there's gun fights going on, 2:28:23.600 --> 2:28:25.560 while you're carrying, and you can claim like, well, look, 2:28:26.200 --> 2:28:28.840 you know, you can't stop bullets from going through buildings, 2:28:28.920 --> 2:28:31.120 you can't stop people from getting hit by a shrapnel. 2:28:31.160 --> 2:28:33.200 You're fighting in a city. Civilians are going to die. 2:28:33.600 --> 2:28:36.879 This is a very clear case of this town was occupied, 2:28:37.040 --> 2:28:39.720 there was not resistance ongoing in it, and they were 2:28:39.800 --> 2:28:43.280 mass executing civilians. That's illegal. You're not allowed to do 2:28:43.400 --> 2:28:48.760 that theoretically, if international law means anything. Now, I do 2:28:48.879 --> 2:28:51.680 want to get to another case of a war crime 2:28:52.000 --> 2:28:54.520 that are a thing that people call a war crime 2:28:54.680 --> 2:28:56.480 that isn't a war crime. And this we're actually going 2:28:56.560 --> 2:28:59.800 to go back to the Iraq the first Iraq war. Desert. 2:29:00.640 --> 2:29:03.640 Before you go to desert storm, let's go to these ads. 2:29:14.720 --> 2:29:17.520 All right, we're back, James. What do you know about 2:29:17.520 --> 2:29:18.400 the Highway of Death? 2:29:19.000 --> 2:29:19.120 Oh? 2:29:19.160 --> 2:29:20.800 I know a little bit about the Highway of Death. 2:29:20.879 --> 2:29:21.039 Yeah. 2:29:21.200 --> 2:29:22.240 Let's a throwback, isn't it. 2:29:22.560 --> 2:29:26.800 It's a throwback. I hear it described by particularly leftists 2:29:26.800 --> 2:29:29.760 on the internet a lot as a US war crime. Yeah, 2:29:30.280 --> 2:29:34.240 and as a spoiler, it's not it's ugly, it's really hideous. 2:29:34.480 --> 2:29:35.880 It's like a horrifying thing. 2:29:36.360 --> 2:29:40.160 But it's just war, right, And it was combatants fighting combatants. 2:29:40.600 --> 2:29:43.880 Yeah, it was combatants killing retreating combatants, which people think 2:29:44.440 --> 2:29:47.600 sometimes shouldn't be allowed. But it doesn't really make sense 2:29:47.640 --> 2:29:49.160 for that to not be allowed if you just like 2:29:49.440 --> 2:29:51.920 know what war is. And I'm going to talk about 2:29:51.959 --> 2:29:55.560 why here, and like I'm not trying to justify this 2:29:55.720 --> 2:29:58.480 because nothing in war make it does. Like, you don't 2:29:58.640 --> 2:30:01.760 justify it, just is it a thing that happens, right, Like, 2:30:02.240 --> 2:30:04.640 it's all hideous. If you've been through it, you see 2:30:04.720 --> 2:30:07.120 in humanity every second. But one of the things that 2:30:07.600 --> 2:30:11.000 you learn if you study war on an academic level 2:30:11.160 --> 2:30:14.440 is that a massive part of it is retreating. Like 2:30:14.640 --> 2:30:19.160 all the time, all throughout history, armies retreat, regroup, and 2:30:19.320 --> 2:30:21.160 then carry out additional offensives. 2:30:21.280 --> 2:30:21.440 Right. 2:30:21.959 --> 2:30:25.760 That is war in a nutshell, right, And so when 2:30:25.920 --> 2:30:29.080 armies are retreating, you're allowed to keep killing them, and 2:30:29.200 --> 2:30:33.520 in fact, that's the norm. And most soldiers, up until 2:30:33.560 --> 2:30:36.119 the modern era, the vast majority of combat debts we're 2:30:36.200 --> 2:30:36.959 during retreats. 2:30:37.160 --> 2:30:37.280 Right. 2:30:37.640 --> 2:30:40.720 This is the primary way in which soldiers are killed. 2:30:40.760 --> 2:30:43.960 This is when they're retreating, right, And so what actually 2:30:44.080 --> 2:30:47.119 happened is in August, so obviously August of nineteen ninety, 2:30:47.200 --> 2:30:50.840 the US leads a coalition against the Iraqi Army who 2:30:50.879 --> 2:30:55.440 have invaded and occupied Kuwait illegally. You know, one of 2:30:55.520 --> 2:30:58.560 my stances on this is that Iraq very clearly violated 2:30:58.640 --> 2:31:02.080 international law and they didn't have been allowed to occupy Kuwait. Now, 2:31:02.360 --> 2:31:05.840 there's a lot of things about like US involvement in 2:31:05.920 --> 2:31:09.279 Iraq prior to this that are you could say extenuating, 2:31:09.360 --> 2:31:12.000 including the fact that like we had kind of pushed 2:31:12.040 --> 2:31:15.520 them to invade Iran and then played both sides of 2:31:15.560 --> 2:31:17.960 that conflict, and that was part of what Saddam was 2:31:18.000 --> 2:31:22.320 pissed about. But that doesn't justify it in Kuwait being occupied, Right, 2:31:22.400 --> 2:31:25.119 You can't just get mad and invade somewhere unless you're America. 2:31:25.600 --> 2:31:27.680 Unless you're America, which we're going to do to Iraq 2:31:27.760 --> 2:31:30.520 not much longer after this, But in this case, you know, 2:31:30.959 --> 2:31:34.320 we're more or less on the on the better side 2:31:34.360 --> 2:31:37.680 of things, right, and we basically immediately throw the Iraqi 2:31:37.800 --> 2:31:41.000 Army into a full fledged retreat. This culminates in late 2:31:41.080 --> 2:31:43.880 February nineteen ninety one with a huge number of Iraqi 2:31:43.920 --> 2:31:47.040 soldiers and military vehicles jammed up on a convoy on 2:31:47.560 --> 2:31:50.600 Highway eighty, which is the highway that connects Iraq to Kuwait. 2:31:51.040 --> 2:31:53.280 And what we do is we use our planes to 2:31:53.480 --> 2:31:56.360 blow up vehicles on both ends of this convoy of 2:31:56.480 --> 2:32:00.320 like three thousand vehicles, which then traps thousands and thousands 2:32:00.320 --> 2:32:02.880 of soldiers inside these walls of fire, so we can 2:32:02.959 --> 2:32:06.800 spend ten hours bombing them. And this is fucking hideous. 2:32:07.320 --> 2:32:09.680 The event is memorialized, and this is part of why 2:32:09.760 --> 2:32:12.000 people think of it as a war crime in a 2:32:12.040 --> 2:32:14.680 picture by a photojournalist of the corpse of an Iraqi 2:32:14.800 --> 2:32:18.080 soldier hideously burned, frozen in time as he tried to 2:32:18.160 --> 2:32:21.840 flee his flaming tank, and that picture you can find it. 2:32:21.920 --> 2:32:25.800 It's I mean, it's horrible. It's a great example of 2:32:25.879 --> 2:32:28.000 why war is bad and we should do less of it. 2:32:28.480 --> 2:32:29.760 And it is, you know, it's one of those things. 2:32:29.800 --> 2:32:32.840 A lot of US soldiers who participate in this feel 2:32:33.160 --> 2:32:36.720 uncomfortable with it, feel like they are unnecessarily killing a 2:32:36.959 --> 2:32:39.760 large number of people. And you can make that case. 2:32:40.080 --> 2:32:42.480 You can make a case and I'll listen to it 2:32:42.760 --> 2:32:45.680 that this was hideously evil, but it's not a war crime. 2:32:45.959 --> 2:32:48.880 Right now, Sodam's going to make that claim, arguing that 2:32:48.959 --> 2:32:52.080 his soldiers are trying to peacefully withdraw, But there's like 2:32:52.160 --> 2:32:55.160 a definition of that, and what the Iraqis were doing 2:32:55.280 --> 2:32:58.000 didn't meet it. What actually happened is that the Iraqi 2:32:58.120 --> 2:33:01.760 army made contact with the US army and then they 2:33:02.200 --> 2:33:05.640 went into a retreat. They were attempting to leave the 2:33:05.760 --> 2:33:10.000 area after losing a fight, and they had not formally surrendered. 2:33:10.120 --> 2:33:13.080 And there's nothing an international law that makes it illegal 2:33:13.160 --> 2:33:16.400 to kill soldiers who happened to be withdrawing, right. A 2:33:16.440 --> 2:33:18.280 great example of this would be nineteen forty four during 2:33:18.320 --> 2:33:20.640 the Battle of Normandy. There are reports of retreating German 2:33:20.720 --> 2:33:23.520 soldiers shot by US soldiers and there was debate at 2:33:23.560 --> 2:33:26.120 the time as like, well, is this a violation of 2:33:26.160 --> 2:33:28.879 the Geneva Conventions, right? And the conclusion that was generally 2:33:28.959 --> 2:33:31.600 reached in is that you shouldn't kill an enemy who 2:33:31.680 --> 2:33:34.879 is number one not in combat and number two surrendering, 2:33:35.000 --> 2:33:37.680 And there is kind of a blurry line between that 2:33:37.920 --> 2:33:42.280 and retreat. But again, the vast majority of soldiers killed 2:33:42.360 --> 2:33:46.240 in war are killed running away, right, Like that's just 2:33:46.440 --> 2:33:48.360 kind of how I mean, that's changed a bit in 2:33:48.440 --> 2:33:50.960 the modern era, but like this is I think more 2:33:51.000 --> 2:33:53.920 falls under one of those things where everyone sees this 2:33:54.040 --> 2:33:56.560 as a nightmare, because it is a nightmare. Those random 2:33:56.600 --> 2:33:59.680 Iraqi conscripts did not deserve to burn to death in 2:33:59.760 --> 2:34:02.920 this Charnel house we created on the Highway eighty. And 2:34:03.040 --> 2:34:05.080 also like, well, that's just what war is, man. 2:34:05.320 --> 2:34:06.120 You think we didn't do that. 2:34:06.160 --> 2:34:08.480 To the Nazis. You think the Nazis didn't do that 2:34:08.600 --> 2:34:10.840 to the fucking Russians, you think like you think that 2:34:10.959 --> 2:34:14.080 hasn't happened to every war, Like that's just what war is, man, 2:34:14.280 --> 2:34:16.600 That's why we shouldn't do it. It's really bad. 2:34:17.080 --> 2:34:19.120 Yeah, it's fucked. The things are allowed to do a 2:34:19.160 --> 2:34:21.160 fucked so you think you're not allowed to do Like, yeah, 2:34:21.360 --> 2:34:25.000 we did do some things in the specifically in that incident, 2:34:25.080 --> 2:34:27.640 which are now I didn't think they're war crimes, but 2:34:27.720 --> 2:34:30.440 like they used cluster bombs on the Highway of tests. Yes, 2:34:30.840 --> 2:34:33.560 it's a separate agreement. It's not part of THEMA Convention, right. 2:34:33.800 --> 2:34:35.920 Yeah, yeah, I think that's a separate agreement. And like 2:34:36.000 --> 2:34:39.080 obviously things have like at our doctrine and kind of 2:34:39.440 --> 2:34:41.800 internet like has changed as a result of that, in 2:34:41.879 --> 2:34:44.080 part because like a lot of American soldiers were like, 2:34:44.600 --> 2:34:47.680 I really didn't feel good about this. My kid doesn't 2:34:47.720 --> 2:34:51.200 seem like this was necessary at all. Yeah, and I 2:34:51.480 --> 2:34:53.760 don't think it was necessary, right, Like, I don't think 2:34:53.800 --> 2:34:55.520 it was needed to do this to beat I think 2:34:55.560 --> 2:34:58.200 the Iraqi army was already beaten. But the question isn't 2:34:58.280 --> 2:35:01.400 wasn't necessary? The question is was this not something that 2:35:01.600 --> 2:35:05.760 is generally acceptable in war? And it is because war, 2:35:05.959 --> 2:35:12.120 Like again, blowing, like making exploding pieces like giant boxes 2:35:12.320 --> 2:35:16.959 filled with shards of metal in order to wound hundreds 2:35:17.000 --> 2:35:19.360 of people at a time is acceptable in war, right, 2:35:19.560 --> 2:35:20.360 Like it's. 2:35:20.320 --> 2:35:23.920 Bad, Yeah, bad things happening. We should have it if 2:35:23.959 --> 2:35:24.240 we can. 2:35:24.720 --> 2:35:27.640 Yeah, So let's continue our list of things that be 2:35:27.800 --> 2:35:30.040 war crimes. One of them is making improper use of 2:35:30.120 --> 2:35:32.040 a flag of truce. So you're not allowed to like 2:35:32.160 --> 2:35:35.360 pretend to surrender or pretend to try to negotiate and 2:35:35.400 --> 2:35:38.400 then start shooting. That's a war crime. Actually, you're not 2:35:38.480 --> 2:35:42.360 allowed to transfer parts of the population of the civilian 2:35:42.440 --> 2:35:45.120 population of a territory you occupy to other parts of 2:35:45.160 --> 2:35:48.000 your territory, which the Russians have done in Ukraine. They 2:35:48.040 --> 2:35:50.520 have been taking particularly Ukrainian children and moving them to 2:35:50.560 --> 2:35:53.240 elsewhere in Russia, adopting them out to the families. That 2:35:53.400 --> 2:35:54.119 is a war crime. 2:35:54.440 --> 2:35:55.560 Turkey's done it in Aphree. 2:35:56.120 --> 2:35:57.880 Turkey does a hell of a lot of this, right, 2:35:57.879 --> 2:36:00.360 They've done a lot of that in Afrin. Yes, as 2:36:00.400 --> 2:36:04.360 you said, and obviously these really well I mean these 2:36:04.400 --> 2:36:06.680 really military. We're actually going to talk about their abduction 2:36:06.840 --> 2:36:11.000 and imprisonment of Palestinians because that also violates that arguably 2:36:11.080 --> 2:36:14.960 violates this. But there's a separate segment of the Roman 2:36:15.000 --> 2:36:19.119 statues that violates. And then intentionally directing attacks against buildings 2:36:19.160 --> 2:36:23.039 dedicated to religion, education, art, science, or charitable purposes. I'm 2:36:23.080 --> 2:36:27.720 thinking about historical monuments, hospitals. Very easy to find examples 2:36:27.760 --> 2:36:28.440 of that in Gaza. 2:36:28.560 --> 2:36:28.680 Right. 2:36:29.520 --> 2:36:31.600 Again, the little bit of wiggle room here is like 2:36:31.720 --> 2:36:35.080 if they're being occupied as like an enemy HQ, which 2:36:35.120 --> 2:36:38.280 is basically what everyone claims when they bomb hospitals. 2:36:38.360 --> 2:36:38.520 Right. 2:36:38.800 --> 2:36:41.320 The US has done this a lot too, like we have, 2:36:41.520 --> 2:36:44.000 especially in Afghanistan. We had a number of hospitals and 2:36:44.080 --> 2:36:45.240 it was always like, well we thought. 2:36:45.120 --> 2:36:46.080 There were some guys there. 2:36:46.440 --> 2:36:49.280 We were trying to write and Russia and Israel both 2:36:49.320 --> 2:36:52.680 have extensive histories doing this. During the Syrian Civil War, 2:36:52.800 --> 2:36:56.000 Russian planes back in the ASAD regime regularly targeted medical 2:36:56.040 --> 2:36:59.400 facilities in Aleppo at least twenty seven times from fall 2:36:59.440 --> 2:37:02.400 of twenty fifth to the winter of twenty sixteen. More recently, 2:37:02.480 --> 2:37:06.120 Russia has targeted hospitals in Kherson. Per this Guardian article quote, 2:37:06.360 --> 2:37:09.400 since December twenty two, the Russian army has been bombarding 2:37:09.440 --> 2:37:12.000 Karsan from dug in positions on the nearby left eastern 2:37:12.040 --> 2:37:15.240 flank of the Knipro River. It has attacked civilian infrastructure, 2:37:15.280 --> 2:37:18.840 including schools, private residential houses, hospitals and the railway station. 2:37:19.560 --> 2:37:23.279 And yeah, it's pretty hideous, like these are systematic attacks. 2:37:23.320 --> 2:37:27.240 The Cinema for in Information Resilience has documented fourteen separate 2:37:27.280 --> 2:37:29.520 attacks over six months between December of twenty twenty two 2:37:29.520 --> 2:37:33.000 and May of twenty twenty three, striking hospital facilities several 2:37:33.040 --> 2:37:36.280 times with the apparent purpose of degrading their capacity to 2:37:36.360 --> 2:37:39.960 continue to serve the civilian population. The targeting of hospitals 2:37:40.000 --> 2:37:43.040 has also been utterly endemic to Israeli activities in Gaza. 2:37:43.280 --> 2:37:45.440 In November of twenty thirteen, they killed at least twelve 2:37:45.440 --> 2:37:48.680 people in attacks on the Indonesian hospital in bit Lahia, Gaza, 2:37:49.120 --> 2:37:52.199 and basically every medical facility in Gaza has been targeted, 2:37:52.280 --> 2:37:54.480 and more than twenty of the thirty five hospitals in Gaza, 2:37:54.959 --> 2:37:56.879 Gaza have at this point been taken out of service 2:37:56.959 --> 2:37:59.240 due to damage. The most famous of these was the 2:37:59.280 --> 2:38:02.600 Alshifaha Hospital, which held dozens of premature babies, thirty one 2:38:02.640 --> 2:38:04.800 of whom had to be evacuated after weeks of losing 2:38:04.840 --> 2:38:07.640 power to their incubators and being fed a formula mixed 2:38:07.680 --> 2:38:11.280 with poisoned water. Eight infants died at least I'm sure 2:38:11.320 --> 2:38:16.200 that number is higher before evacuation. This is obvious war crime, right. 2:38:17.080 --> 2:38:20.320 Yeah, A friend Taraklubani, who I've interviewed the show before, 2:38:20.520 --> 2:38:23.680 was in the was working with the premature babies at 2:38:23.680 --> 2:38:25.920 that time. Yeah, you can find infuse with him. It's 2:38:26.080 --> 2:38:29.000 just it's like, I would not recommend reading it venless 2:38:29.000 --> 2:38:30.720 you want to traumatize yourself. Is honestly one of the 2:38:30.800 --> 2:38:33.760 most horrible things I've ever had to see about. 2:38:34.400 --> 2:38:39.560 Yeah, it's nightmarish stuff, and I mean a lot of 2:38:39.600 --> 2:38:43.199 these are right. The Rome statues continues with committing outrages 2:38:43.280 --> 2:38:46.880 upon personal dignity and particular humiliating the degrading treatment. And 2:38:46.959 --> 2:38:50.120 my god, there's a lot of examples of that from Gaza. 2:38:50.400 --> 2:38:54.160 Committing rape, sexual slavery, and forced prostitution, forced pregnancy as 2:38:54.240 --> 2:38:57.199 to find an Article seven paragraph too, and forced sterilization 2:38:57.360 --> 2:38:59.960 or any other form of sexual violence also constitutes a 2:39:00.040 --> 2:39:03.240 great breach of the Geneva Conventions. Utilizing the presence of 2:39:03.280 --> 2:39:06.080 a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, 2:39:06.160 --> 2:39:09.560 areas or military forces immune from military operations, So using 2:39:09.600 --> 2:39:12.960 civilians as shields, right, if you're hiding military forces among 2:39:12.959 --> 2:39:16.160 a civilian populace, you know that is also a war crime. 2:39:16.800 --> 2:39:20.480 Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, material medical units, you know, 2:39:20.600 --> 2:39:24.600 that's supposed to be illegal. Starvation for starvation of civilians 2:39:24.720 --> 2:39:27.280 is supposed to be illegal. And conscripting or enlisting children 2:39:27.320 --> 2:39:29.680 under the age of fifteen years old into the national forces, 2:39:29.720 --> 2:39:32.800 which I've noticed that, you know, when I would report 2:39:32.840 --> 2:39:35.279 on the YPG, some of the people that I reported 2:39:35.320 --> 2:39:38.040 on that were like seventeen and people like using child soldiers. 2:39:38.080 --> 2:39:40.080 You can enlisted the British Army at sixteen. 2:39:40.200 --> 2:39:44.000 That's not legal, Yeah, you seventeen year olds have always 2:39:44.120 --> 2:39:47.360 been allowed to do war. Yeah, I think they don't 2:39:47.400 --> 2:39:51.880 deploy them, right, certainly not sixteen year olds, right, yeah, 2:39:52.000 --> 2:39:54.800 But then the yeah, pea, and it's I've often women 2:39:54.840 --> 2:39:56.520 at she's off in the witepga, right, because they've come 2:39:56.560 --> 2:39:59.360 from abusive homes, and they also make an FM not 2:39:59.440 --> 2:40:02.680 to deploy I understand, yes, yes, but you are theoretically 2:40:02.720 --> 2:40:05.200 you're allowed to deploy sixteen year olds, right, yeah, so 2:40:05.879 --> 2:40:10.520 at least as regards international law. So and then of 2:40:10.600 --> 2:40:13.520 course we get to kind of some of the some 2:40:13.640 --> 2:40:15.960 of our our final war crimes, which you know, I 2:40:16.040 --> 2:40:18.720 haven't gone over a comprehensive list, but this gives you 2:40:18.840 --> 2:40:21.640 a good list of the things covered, you know, between 2:40:22.200 --> 2:40:26.440 the various different statutes and international agreements. Violation to life 2:40:26.480 --> 2:40:29.360 in person in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel 2:40:29.400 --> 2:40:33.680 treatment and torture, committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular 2:40:33.840 --> 2:40:38.360 humiliating or degrading treatment, which is maybe the most common 2:40:38.400 --> 2:40:41.080 by numbers thing that I see happening at Gaza. Right, certainly, 2:40:41.160 --> 2:40:44.680 not like as it does, you know, the killing is 2:40:44.760 --> 2:40:48.200 much more offensive, but like there's so many examples of 2:40:48.400 --> 2:40:52.440 like outrages upon personal dignity, you know, the taking of hostages, 2:40:52.800 --> 2:40:55.519 the passing of sentences, and the carrying out of executions 2:40:55.560 --> 2:40:59.440 without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court. And 2:40:59.560 --> 2:41:03.720 then you get to paragraph two, there's a note like 2:41:03.879 --> 2:41:05.480 after this all of this stuff that like, you're not 2:41:05.480 --> 2:41:07.800 supposed to do violence to life in person, committing outrages 2:41:07.879 --> 2:41:12.120 upon personal dignity, taking hostages, doing summary executions. And then 2:41:12.160 --> 2:41:14.040 there's a note that like, this does not apply. This 2:41:14.120 --> 2:41:17.400 applies only to armed conflicts and not situations of internal 2:41:17.440 --> 2:41:20.400 disturbances and tensions such as riots, isolated and sporadic acts 2:41:20.400 --> 2:41:22.880 of violence or other acts of a similar nature, which 2:41:22.959 --> 2:41:25.000 is fun to me because it's like the international agreements 2:41:25.040 --> 2:41:26.560 like well, I mean, countries can do this to their 2:41:26.560 --> 2:41:28.640 own people if they want, right, Like, that's not a problem, 2:41:28.720 --> 2:41:32.280 you know, go, which I guess is probably we're in 2:41:32.360 --> 2:41:34.320 a gray area with some of what Israel does to 2:41:34.360 --> 2:41:37.800 Palestinians here because like one of the things that has 2:41:37.840 --> 2:41:39.800 been happening for a long time is continue to happen, 2:41:39.800 --> 2:41:42.400 as there are presently ninety five hundred at least Palestinians 2:41:42.440 --> 2:41:45.720 from the occupied West Bank in captivity prior to October seventh, 2:41:45.760 --> 2:41:48.280 that was just fifty two hundred people, so this escalated 2:41:48.320 --> 2:41:51.039 significantly after that. Most of these were people who had 2:41:51.080 --> 2:41:54.320 been arrested before for stuff literally like waving a flag 2:41:54.520 --> 2:41:57.360 or like posting on social media in sympathy with Gaza. 2:41:57.760 --> 2:42:00.840 Fifteen of these people have died since October seventh. A 2:42:01.000 --> 2:42:03.640 number of them have been tortured and beaten. This is 2:42:03.680 --> 2:42:05.480 the kind of thing that could be a war crime, 2:42:05.520 --> 2:42:08.360 except for again, you have that little note that like 2:42:08.480 --> 2:42:11.200 this doesn't apply to internal disturbances in the West Bank, 2:42:11.240 --> 2:42:14.119 you can say that that's an internal disturbance, right, which 2:42:14.200 --> 2:42:18.120 is you know, shit, yeah, yeah, I don't love that. 2:42:18.240 --> 2:42:22.000 That's the way that that works. And yeah, it's it's 2:42:22.000 --> 2:42:24.040 one of those things. And another thing, you know, to 2:42:24.160 --> 2:42:25.880 be fair here, one thing I should note, because we're 2:42:25.920 --> 2:42:28.760 about to talk about the actual ICC investigation that's going on, 2:42:29.400 --> 2:42:31.680 the taking of hostages is a war crime. So it's 2:42:32.040 --> 2:42:34.800 there's been a lot of talk about because there's been 2:42:34.840 --> 2:42:38.800 disinformation about how many civilians did Hamas kill, right, like. 2:42:38.800 --> 2:42:41.039 How many we had that bleak period. If we were 2:42:41.120 --> 2:42:43.560 arguing looking at dead babies and arguing where those babies 2:42:43.600 --> 2:42:46.440 beheaded or their heads just come off because they burnt 2:42:46.480 --> 2:42:50.200 to like, Hamas definitely committed war crimes, and we know 2:42:50.240 --> 2:42:52.880 that because they admitted to them. Because they the Hamas 2:42:52.920 --> 2:42:55.720 does not deny that they took hostages. That's a war crime. 2:42:55.920 --> 2:42:59.400 Right Again, should you be as offended by the taking 2:42:59.440 --> 2:43:02.199 of hostage as the killing of thirty five thousand people 2:43:02.240 --> 2:43:04.520 from the sky? Well, no, But I would also say 2:43:04.600 --> 2:43:07.000 that the taking of hostages is not like tear gassing 2:43:07.040 --> 2:43:09.959 a sniper. I think that that's bad. You shouldn't take 2:43:10.040 --> 2:43:12.800 civilian hostages. Yeah, that makes sense as a war crime 2:43:12.879 --> 2:43:15.760 to me. Now this kind of leads us to the 2:43:15.959 --> 2:43:19.280 crux of our discussion, which is like, should you actually 2:43:19.400 --> 2:43:21.160 care about what a war crime is and isn't? 2:43:21.400 --> 2:43:21.520 Right? 2:43:22.080 --> 2:43:25.160 And I'm going to argue yes, even though, as we've 2:43:25.200 --> 2:43:27.640 made the case here, it's not a perfect thing. This 2:43:27.760 --> 2:43:29.840 is not a perfect Whether or not something is a 2:43:29.920 --> 2:43:32.400 war crime does not make it a perfect measure of morality. 2:43:32.760 --> 2:43:35.800 I don't think a soldier tossing a tear gas grenade 2:43:35.840 --> 2:43:37.720 and a sniper because they don't want to get shot 2:43:37.760 --> 2:43:42.400 by a sniper is like a thing that is horrifying 2:43:42.520 --> 2:43:45.880 to me. And I do think that, for example, the 2:43:46.080 --> 2:43:49.400 use of shrapnel shells is horrifying to me, having seen 2:43:49.480 --> 2:43:52.519 what happens to people when they get gutted by shrapnel. 2:43:52.520 --> 2:43:55.160 I don't think those are good, and I know what 2:43:55.240 --> 2:43:57.320 I think is a worse thing to do. But even 2:43:57.480 --> 2:43:59.640 with that taken into account, I think that a lot 2:43:59.680 --> 2:44:02.360 of this does matter, and that it is good that 2:44:03.200 --> 2:44:06.560 the ICC has recently announced a set of warrants both 2:44:06.640 --> 2:44:11.880 against Benjamin Netanyahu and against three Hamas leaders, right. And 2:44:12.120 --> 2:44:13.960 I saw some people saying when this got announced that 2:44:14.000 --> 2:44:16.600 there were like these warrants against these Hamas leaders alongside 2:44:16.640 --> 2:44:19.440 net Yahoo and his defense minister Yo have gallant that like, oh, 2:44:19.480 --> 2:44:24.000 they're both sides in it. No, Hamas took hostages. If 2:44:24.040 --> 2:44:26.200 the ICC is going after Israel for its clear and 2:44:26.240 --> 2:44:29.840 obvious war crimes, we know that Hamas took hostages. It's 2:44:29.920 --> 2:44:32.560 not wrong that the ICC would issue a warrant there. 2:44:32.640 --> 2:44:35.520 That's their job, right, And I think that that actually 2:44:35.920 --> 2:44:38.520 it's kind of important to do that because if you don't, 2:44:38.560 --> 2:44:40.720 the Israelis are going to be like, well, they took hostages. 2:44:40.760 --> 2:44:43.280 That's definitely a war crime. The ICC is invalid because 2:44:43.280 --> 2:44:44.200 they're not prosecuting this. 2:44:44.640 --> 2:44:44.800 Now. 2:44:45.400 --> 2:44:49.160 The reality is that not only has Israel is now 2:44:49.320 --> 2:44:50.920 Israel kind of gearing up to go to war with 2:44:50.959 --> 2:44:53.000 the International Criminal Court, that they have been doing that 2:44:53.200 --> 2:44:58.680 for years prior to the to October seventh, right, and 2:44:58.840 --> 2:45:01.120 in fact, a couple of years ago, I think in 2:45:01.240 --> 2:45:06.200 twenty twenty one, the ICC launched an investigation into Israeli 2:45:06.560 --> 2:45:07.840 actions in Gaza. 2:45:08.040 --> 2:45:08.160 Right. 2:45:08.440 --> 2:45:13.440 This started when the former prosecutor of the ICC, Fatu Bensuda, 2:45:14.160 --> 2:45:17.240 made the call to like yes, start a formal investigation, 2:45:17.959 --> 2:45:20.640 and that culminated a couple of weeks ago in the 2:45:20.879 --> 2:45:24.120 ICC issuing an arrest warrant for Benjamin Nan Yahoo. And 2:45:24.240 --> 2:45:27.760 when that process started, there is evidence that the former 2:45:27.840 --> 2:45:29.280 head of the Massad, the guy who was running the 2:45:29.280 --> 2:45:33.960 massade at the time, Yo C. Cohen, made contact with 2:45:34.280 --> 2:45:38.080 an ICC prosecutor and basically threatened him. And I'm actually 2:45:38.080 --> 2:45:40.760 I'm going to read a quote from a Guardian article here. 2:45:41.400 --> 2:45:44.039 Cohen's personal involvement in the operation against the ICC took 2:45:44.080 --> 2:45:46.000 place when he was the director of the Massad. His 2:45:46.080 --> 2:45:48.480 activities were authorized at a high level and justified on 2:45:48.560 --> 2:45:51.320 the basis the court posed a threat of prosecutions against 2:45:51.360 --> 2:45:55.480 military personnel. According to a senior Israeli official. Another Israeli 2:45:55.560 --> 2:45:57.840 source briefed on the operation against Bensuda said that the 2:45:57.879 --> 2:46:01.120 massad's objective was to compromise the prosecutter or enlist her 2:46:01.120 --> 2:46:03.760 as someone who could cooperate with Israel's demands. A third 2:46:03.800 --> 2:46:05.879 source familiar with the operation said Cohen was acting as 2:46:05.920 --> 2:46:09.400 Netanya Who's unofficial messenger. Cohen who was one of Netanya 2:46:09.440 --> 2:46:11.280 Who's closest allies at the time, and it is emerging 2:46:11.320 --> 2:46:13.440 as a political force in his own right, and Israel 2:46:13.560 --> 2:46:16.320 personally led them as sod's involvement in an almost decade 2:46:16.360 --> 2:46:19.680 long campaign by the country to undermine the court. According 2:46:19.680 --> 2:46:21.880 to account shared with ICC officials, he's alleged to have 2:46:21.959 --> 2:46:23.840 told her, you should help us and let us take 2:46:23.920 --> 2:46:25.360 care of you. You don't want to be getting into 2:46:25.400 --> 2:46:28.120 things that could compromise your security or that if your family, 2:46:28.480 --> 2:46:32.440 which is very much mob shit, right like, it couldn't 2:46:32.520 --> 2:46:35.720 be more mob shit. And it's like, I don't actually 2:46:35.760 --> 2:46:38.600 think that is a war crime. I don't even know, 2:46:38.680 --> 2:46:41.040 because I guess they didn't even think anyone would do that, 2:46:41.240 --> 2:46:43.920 right like that, you would just like, hey, you know, 2:46:44.000 --> 2:46:48.400 we could break your fucking legs, you know, misprosecutor a 2:46:48.520 --> 2:46:50.840 lady like we the Masad. I don't even know that 2:46:50.959 --> 2:46:53.800 that because, at least from my reading over of the 2:46:53.920 --> 2:46:56.360 Rome Statutes, that's not listed. Maybe they should add that 2:46:56.400 --> 2:46:59.440 one in there. But yeah, this has been a brief 2:46:59.480 --> 2:47:02.240 overview of what be a war crime. I hope you 2:47:02.320 --> 2:47:04.720 find this helpful in your discussions of what be a 2:47:04.800 --> 2:47:06.440 war crime. But I do kind of want to end 2:47:06.480 --> 2:47:09.240 on the note again, does any of this matter? What's 2:47:09.280 --> 2:47:11.720 going to Well? No, do I think that, like Benjamin 2:47:11.760 --> 2:47:15.520 Natanyaho's going to actually be taken to Denhag and fucking chains. 2:47:16.000 --> 2:47:18.959 I mean maybe someday. Actually, I don't think that that's impossible. 2:47:19.000 --> 2:47:20.400 I don't think we should give up hope for that, 2:47:21.040 --> 2:47:23.800 and this is a necessary precursor to that. And I 2:47:23.840 --> 2:47:26.119 think it's good. I think the evidence that this is valuable. 2:47:26.160 --> 2:47:27.960 If you actually, if you want my best case for 2:47:28.120 --> 2:47:33.240 why this matters, Israel spent ten years previous to the 2:47:33.360 --> 2:47:38.360 announcement of this warrant running devoting Masad resources to an 2:47:38.440 --> 2:47:42.920 undergrand campaign to sabotage and threaten the ICC. That means 2:47:43.000 --> 2:47:46.720 they see this as a threat. They consider prosecutions like 2:47:46.800 --> 2:47:50.600 this to be dangerous to them. And that means you 2:47:50.640 --> 2:47:54.800 should at least passively support what the ICC is doing here. 2:47:55.200 --> 2:48:00.760 Right net Yahoo's regime considers this a threat to their operations, 2:48:00.959 --> 2:48:02.959 to what they're doing in Gaza, and I think that's 2:48:03.080 --> 2:48:04.560 enough of a reason to think that it's good. 2:48:05.400 --> 2:48:05.640 Yeah. 2:48:05.720 --> 2:48:08.920 Yeah, if they think it's going to stop them murdering civilians, 2:48:09.160 --> 2:48:11.560 then yeah, it's good that we don't need to beat 2:48:11.600 --> 2:48:14.880 around the bush too much. Like anyway, Yeah, it would 2:48:14.879 --> 2:48:17.480 be nice to see someone who wasn't from Africa prosecuted 2:48:17.520 --> 2:48:17.920 at the Hague. 2:48:17.959 --> 2:48:19.800 That would be Hey, yeah, they got those serbians, right, 2:48:19.840 --> 2:48:21.959 I did get they got a couple of serbs. 2:48:22.400 --> 2:48:24.800 Yeah, yeah, it's true. 2:48:24.920 --> 2:48:27.480 Uh yeah, yeah, let's throw an Israeli or too and 2:48:27.520 --> 2:48:29.400 there and yeah some of those some OSK guys. I'm like, 2:48:29.480 --> 2:48:32.800 look something, let's try to do something. 2:48:32.920 --> 2:48:35.680 Yeah, yeah, maybe maybe let's let's make a statement that 2:48:35.720 --> 2:48:39.039 it's bad to murder and kidnap civilians, it's bad to. 2:48:39.600 --> 2:48:43.680 Yeah, I don't know. We're very critical of the idea 2:48:43.720 --> 2:48:45.960 that there ever was a rules based international order, but 2:48:46.000 --> 2:48:47.440 I think we should try that sometime. 2:48:48.240 --> 2:48:49.600 It's been nice to have some rules. 2:48:49.959 --> 2:48:53.000 Yeah, anyway, James, anything else to add before we cut 2:48:53.040 --> 2:48:53.360 out of here. 2:48:53.720 --> 2:48:55.000 Don't engage in war crimes. 2:48:55.560 --> 2:48:57.840 Don't commit a war crime. Yeah, don't commit a war crime. 2:48:57.920 --> 2:48:58.880 Avoid that if you can. 2:48:59.280 --> 2:49:02.080 Don't engage in war, if you didn't have to, really. 2:49:01.959 --> 2:49:05.040 Try to avoid war. Because one of the things reading 2:49:05.120 --> 2:49:07.800 through this, I think about all the things I've seen 2:49:07.920 --> 2:49:09.960 that I'm like, well, I could argue that that was 2:49:10.000 --> 2:49:13.200 a war cry. You know, they happen a lot, it 2:49:13.320 --> 2:49:16.080 turns out, or at least edge cases, are most of 2:49:16.160 --> 2:49:24.600 the things you see in war. Yes, anyway, we're done. Hey, 2:49:24.760 --> 2:49:27.800 We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 2:49:27.879 --> 2:49:29.520 now until the heat death of the universe. 2:49:30.160 --> 2:49:32.480 It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 2:49:32.760 --> 2:49:35.400 For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 2:49:35.480 --> 2:49:37.640 cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 2:49:37.720 --> 2:49:41.080 iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 2:49:41.360 --> 2:49:43.440 You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 2:49:43.560 --> 2:49:47.560 monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.