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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome, dick it up and here a podcast that's occasionally

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Speaker 3: hijacked by the Supreme Court because a bunch of fun

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Speaker 3: a lucky dipshit's rule us all. I'm your host, me

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Speaker 3: along with.

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Speaker 4: Me as James Hi man, I'm excited to be hijacked.

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Speaker 4: If they're like a pirate situation is like Samuel alta

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Speaker 4: Liker one leg and a patch coming in hijacking.

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Speaker 3: They are not cool. To be fair, I've made a

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Speaker 3: mistake here because the Supreme Court justices are not cool

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Speaker 3: enough to take up a piracy that is that is

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Speaker 3: a grand and noble tradition dating back millennia.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we've been compulsory. I what's it colled civil asset

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Speaker 4: forfeited by the Supreme.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, theft bad. So originally this is gonna be an

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Speaker 3: episode about how messed up Clarence Thomas is and Samuel

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Speaker 3: Alito's wives are, because, oh my god, are they a

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Speaker 3: bunch of right wing fanatics. We haven't really covered it

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Speaker 3: on this show. But then this episode got hijacked by

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Speaker 3: a bunch of other Supreme Court news. So we're gonna

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Speaker 3: talk a bit about Samuel Alito's wife, will We'll put

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Speaker 3: off Clarence Thomas's qan on wife for another day. But yeah, so,

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Speaker 3: so this is gonna be a sort of random episode

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Speaker 3: of the sixteen million pieces of Supreme cour We're not

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Speaker 3: even getting gatch to them all. There's Supreme Court news

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Speaker 3: that like we can't even cover, there's too much of it.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, let's start with the MEPhI pristone case. So okay,

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Speaker 3: I think people we've talked about MEPhI pristone before on

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Speaker 3: the show, and you know, there's been a widely sort

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Speaker 3: of dreaded case where a group called the Alliance for

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Speaker 3: Hippocratic Medicine been trying to see the FDA.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the amount of these fucking pretend medical organizations, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 4: I'm deready. The episode that's like the American College of

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Speaker 4: Pediatrics is another one, like.

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Speaker 3: Hey, wait till you find out who these people actually are,

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Speaker 3: because it's amazing. And two, I think you haven't seen

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Speaker 3: any of these legal arguments right now. Oh I'm hoping

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Speaker 3: that we get to Bohemian Grove. That's the only thing

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Speaker 3: I've followed from a Supreme Court. Amazingly, Supremeia, the Bohemian

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Speaker 3: Grove did not make the cut.

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Speaker 4: Amazingly Damn. Okay, I'm ready for some high tear shit.

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Speaker 4: I'm so excited. You are about to see some shit.

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Speaker 4: You are about to see what I genuinely believe to

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Speaker 4: be the worst legal arguments ever made in a court

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Speaker 4: of law. And like I say this having watched like

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Speaker 4: probably four I listen to probably forty hours of Alex

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Speaker 4: Jones trial depositions from different trials, and I genuinely believe these.

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Speaker 3: To be the worst legal arguments anyone has ever made.

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Speaker 3: So all right, I'm I'm going to quote from an

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Speaker 3: article on the Nation here, no Elias, So this is

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Speaker 3: this is about who the Alliance for Hypocratic Medicine is.

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Speaker 3: Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine is a mismash of anti abortion

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Speaker 3: doctors nurses and dentists, yes, dentists, amazing though none of

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Speaker 3: them have ever prescribed the pill, claimed that they are

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Speaker 3: being they have been harmed by its existence. Their theories

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Speaker 3: of standing weight range from comical to inapt to offensive

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Speaker 3: to contemptible. They include arguments such as, doctors who do

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Speaker 3: not perform abortions are harmed when they have to work

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Speaker 3: in the emergency room where alleged complications from the abortion

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Speaker 3: pill arise. And by the way, we should mention this.

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Speaker 3: By the way, so part of part of this whole

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Speaker 3: thing is that there's been the right has been trying

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Speaker 3: to like make up this fake argument that this abortion well, okay,

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Speaker 3: mess of person can be used for a number of things.

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Speaker 3: But they've been trying to make up arguments that like

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Speaker 3: there's like scary side effects with fake studies, and like

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Speaker 3: even the right wing court was like this is bullshit.

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Speaker 3: So so again they're saying that again, having a doctor

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Speaker 3: who has to do work in a place where there's

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Speaker 3: fake side effects that aren't happening, they're saying this is

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Speaker 3: this is an injury. The second one obstetricians who do

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Speaker 3: not perform abortions are harmed because they feel complicit in

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Speaker 3: the abortions that take place, even if they are not

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Speaker 3: a part of the procedures. What the fuck? Literally, one

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Speaker 3: of the justices was like, what do you mean a

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Speaker 3: complicit Are you handing them a bottle of water or

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Speaker 3: something like, I'm.

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Speaker 4: The the abortion clinic. That's what I do. I'm on

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Speaker 4: the hydration team. Fucking Planned Parenthood.

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Speaker 3: Medical staff are hard via complicity. Also and four and

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Speaker 3: this is the best one, this one, I rando. People

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Speaker 3: who do not perform abortions nonetheless suffer from quote unquote

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Speaker 3: aesthetic injury of being deprived as seeing pregnant people jiggle

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Speaker 3: around was sore bad. This is also this is a

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Speaker 3: direct call from the thing. I'm not making this theory up.

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Speaker 3: This is what Fifth Circuit Judge James Hoe wrote with

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Speaker 3: upholding the ban on mephipristone.

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Speaker 4: Okay, what the fuck like? What this is like that

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Speaker 4: they're being deprived of the say, this is like a

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Speaker 4: kink thing. They can't see pregnant people.

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Speaker 3: No, no, it's a parent Apparently. The theory is that

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Speaker 3: being able to see pregnant people is like good and

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Speaker 3: healthy for you or something, and if you don't do it,

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Speaker 3: And there's there's another one. There's another one that that

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Speaker 3: wasn't in this article, but that wasn't some other things.

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Speaker 3: Is that I one of their other cases is that

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Speaker 3: doctors enjoy working with unborn patients, and then this is

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Speaker 3: this is an injury to them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you may want to examine your fucking

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Speaker 4: social skills, but but.

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Speaker 3: Your fucking dentists are being like, I can't work on

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Speaker 3: the teeth pregnant people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been deprived from doing fetus orthodontics,

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Speaker 4: and therefore I will take it to the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 4: What a wild fucking case. Whate incredible system that this

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Speaker 4: made it to the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 3: Okay, the absolute funniest part about this, the like right

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Speaker 3: wing dipshit lawyer for the Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine is

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Speaker 3: Josh Halley's wife.

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Speaker 4: I didn't juste halle like like Popular Front salute to

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Speaker 4: the January sixth people. Yeah that little yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 4: will not use an adjective that we cannot broadcast.

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Speaker 3: Okay, and so sort of, I mean, not that surprise.

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Speaker 3: So people who are following the trial, I think expected

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Speaker 3: this well, they expected probably like a sevent too or

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Speaker 3: an eight one. But this was a nine to Oh no, wait,

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Speaker 3: this is bullshit, Like I think, I think, you know.

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Speaker 3: So there's been a lot of like good coverage about

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Speaker 3: the sort of legal aspects here, and I guess we

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Speaker 3: should we should before we go for that, we should mention.

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Speaker 3: So what this ruling does, like effectively is that, Okay,

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Speaker 3: so there's not going to be a national ban of

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Speaker 3: MEPhI pristone. However, comma the states that have outlawed MEPhI pristone,

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Speaker 3: it's that doesn't change anything there. So there are still

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Speaker 3: a lot of people who cannot access this drug, who

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Speaker 3: cannot access their life saving medical care because they're ruled

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Speaker 3: by a bunch of fucking right wing bigots and like

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Speaker 3: Christian extremists, et cetera, et cetera. But this case has

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Speaker 3: established something extremely important, which is that there is actually

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Speaker 3: a legal limit to the amount of bullshit you can do,

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Speaker 3: even if you are a right wing lawyer who like

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Speaker 3: the court agrees with like Josh Holly's wife used to

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Speaker 3: be a clerk for Justice John Roberts. So she was like,

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Speaker 3: she's like embedded, embedded in this whole right wing ecoism.

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Speaker 3: She's one of the big sort.

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Speaker 4: Of right yeah, yeah, yeah, grooming her for success.

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Speaker 3: But these people final for like the first time ever

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Speaker 3: made made a set of legal argument's sole bullshit. Even

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Speaker 3: the Supreme Court was like, what the fuck? And I think,

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Speaker 3: I think, okay, so this is this is where we're

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Speaker 3: going into sort of MIA's kind of like bullshit theory here.

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Speaker 3: But the reason this was thrown out was that, Okay,

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Speaker 3: so this is the part that's like obviously real. So

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Speaker 3: in American law, I mean, I think this is true

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Speaker 3: of most legal systems. I don't know any that don't

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Speaker 3: function like this. But in order so, in the US,

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Speaker 3: it is very easy to sue someone. You can sue

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Speaker 3: someone over twenty dollars. It's in the constitution. It fucking rules.

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Speaker 3: It's very funny. We are extremely ligitious country. But you

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Speaker 3: need you need what you need something called standing to

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Speaker 3: sue in order to do this. There's some kind of

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Speaker 3: complicated parts of this that you know, evolve around jurisdiction

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Speaker 3: and what court blah blah blah. But the important thing

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Speaker 3: is that someone has to have done an injury to you.

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Speaker 3: And this this is the part when this entire case

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Speaker 3: fell apart because they could not find a single person.

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Speaker 3: But that's suffered an actual injury from members time.

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Speaker 4: Yes, outstanding, just incredible stuff, like yeah, yeah, well, I

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Speaker 4: mean that's because they could sue on behalf of unborn people.

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Speaker 3: Mea, it didn't work, well, I mean to for this,

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Speaker 3: this one technically wasn't this This one was on behalf

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Speaker 3: of like of the dentists and dentists and ship. But okay,

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Speaker 3: I think I think that there's been an important legal

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Speaker 3: standing here because so you know, we we have covered

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Speaker 3: on this show the case three h three Creator versus Alenis,

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Speaker 3: which is the one where the Supreme Court ruled that

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Speaker 3: is legal to discriminate against queer people on religious grounds

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Speaker 3: as long as your business is quote unquote creative and

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Speaker 3: it's like a speech act. That that's the one where

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Speaker 3: it's a cake one, right, uh no, this is a

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Speaker 3: wedding website one. This this is this is the more

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Speaker 3: recent one that was like some woman was like I

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Speaker 3: was forced to make a wedding website for a gay person. Now, okay,

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Speaker 3: so what we talked about in that case is that importantly,

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Speaker 3: this never happened. This woman was never forced to make

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Speaker 3: a website for a gay person, right, like that that

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Speaker 3: never happened. But you know, the court. The court still

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Speaker 3: upheld that and like let them, you know, like like

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Speaker 3: let them basically institute a bunch of like insane you know,

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Speaker 3: like potentially like states can institute a bunch of like

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Speaker 3: insane laws. Now about this, but okay, So, so what

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Speaker 3: we have in in the wedding website case is you

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Speaker 3: have a real person who a fake injury happened to,

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Speaker 3: and that apparently is good enough for standing for if

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Speaker 3: you're a right wing like activist for the Supreme Court,

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Speaker 3: you can have a real person that an injury did

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Speaker 3: not happen to you, but they can imagine an injury

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Speaker 3: that could have happened to them, and that's good enough.

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Speaker 3: Now there's an important legal president of being set here,

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Speaker 3: which is that, Okay, again, nothing has to actually have

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Speaker 3: happened to You can make up what happened to you,

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Speaker 3: but you have to have a an actual person who

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Speaker 3: would injury could have happened to. And b you could

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Speaker 3: have a fake injury, but if the injur was real,

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Speaker 3: it would have to be a real injury. Like so

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Speaker 3: so you could you could you can march up the

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Speaker 3: Supreme Court with a person who said I was thrown

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Speaker 3: into a volcano because of Woke. And obviously they weren't,

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Speaker 3: they weren't thrown into a volcano. But you know, you

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Speaker 3: you could have Woke outlawed because they said they were

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Speaker 3: thrown into a volcano because of Woke. But what you

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Speaker 3: can't do, apparently, the actual line is you have no person,

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Speaker 3: right is you are a group of people who are

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Speaker 3: suing who have said that because of Woke, someone somewhere

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Speaker 3: like hypothetically it might become impossible to flap your wings

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Speaker 3: and fly, And that's apparently because no, no, no, that's not

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Speaker 3: true though, because the the sarlac pit could conceivably you

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Speaker 3: you could build a sarlac pit, right right, Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's like if you're you're the fake injury you're imagining

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Speaker 3: if it were real, like would have to be a

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Speaker 3: real injury. What you can't do is have is not

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Speaker 3: have a person and then also have the injury you're

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Speaker 3: talking about not be a real injury even even if

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Speaker 3: it did happen, which is what's happening in this case.

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Speaker 3: So that's the line that has been drawn in the

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Speaker 3: sand for conservatives is like you absolute clowns, like we

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Speaker 3: are going to let you break every single law, but

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Speaker 3: the thing you're pretending happened, if it actually did happen,

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Speaker 3: has to has to be a real injury. So this

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Speaker 3: is the light of the sand that's been drawn by

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Speaker 3: a huge democracy. Yeah. I mean also, like, I mean,

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Speaker 3: obviously there's some sort of poison pill stuff in this

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Speaker 3: that's kind of more legally complicated that we're not going

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Speaker 3: to really get into. Me. There's some stuff in here

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Speaker 3: that because this is a Kavanall ruling, right, So there's

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Speaker 3: some stuff in here that like is kind of is

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Speaker 3: basically Kavnall being like, Okay, if you want to do

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Speaker 3: this again, but like bring a real case, Like here's

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Speaker 3: how you might be able to do it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, where he like coaches him through. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 4: there's like a little bit of that.

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Speaker 3: And there's some stuff here basically trying to make it

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Speaker 3: harder for civil rights groups to like do cases where

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Speaker 3: like they have one of their people pose as a

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Speaker 3: right someone trying to buy a house or whatever. So

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Speaker 3: those are some stuff. This ruling is still fucking over

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Speaker 3: some people's civil rights. Like less you think the Supreme

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Speaker 3: Court did something good, but we have now established the

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Speaker 3: Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine standard of fake injury. H do

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Speaker 3: you know what else? Do you know what else will

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Speaker 3: give you fake injuries but not real injuries?

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Speaker 4: What can we say categorically that that's I mean, what

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Speaker 4: if we get like black rifle coffee, right, that could

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Speaker 4: do an injury to your to your gut?

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Speaker 3: I guess, I guess we can't say that we Okay,

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Speaker 3: do you know what else? We cannot make any promises about?

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Speaker 4: Would that be the products and services to support this show?

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Speaker 3: It is and we are back. So speaking of products

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Speaker 3: and services, there was also a very bad Supreme Court

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Speaker 3: ruling in a case about the National Labor Relations Board

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Speaker 3: and Starbucks. So I don't know if we I don't

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Speaker 3: think we specific covered this. We've covered a lot of

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Speaker 3: cases on this show of people being fired in retaliation

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Speaker 3: for stars we covered a different case of a worker

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Speaker 3: being fired in retaliation for yougan organizing from Starbucks.

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Speaker 4: But great stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, But so this specific case the NLRB National Labor

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Speaker 3: Relations Board, if your opponent like breaks labor law or

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Speaker 3: for example, firings firing so one in retaliation for union

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Speaker 3: organizing is in fact our violation of labor law. If

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Speaker 3: this happens, you can file something called an unfair labor practice.

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Speaker 3: Eventually you go before the National Labor Relations Board and

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Speaker 3: they make a decision. But one of the things that

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Speaker 3: the NLRB can do, because this process takes in an

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Speaker 3: extremely large amount of time, and if this process goes

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Speaker 3: into like the regular courts, is going to take years

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Speaker 3: and years and years, and during that time you're still

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Speaker 3: going to be fired. So you know, one of the

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Speaker 3: things that the NLRB can do is issue and ask

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Speaker 3: a judged issue an injunction to force uh to Like, basically,

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Speaker 3: a judge can tell Starbucks like, no, fuck you, you are like,

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Speaker 3: until this core case is resolved, you have to rehire

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Speaker 3: this person. And so basically what happened Starbucks sued over this.

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Speaker 3: I got to the Supreme Court, and the question that

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Speaker 3: basically came to, like what standard of evidence does the

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Speaker 3: NLRB have to have that this worker's rights are being

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Speaker 3: violated before they conditioned an injunction? The Supreme Court said,

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Speaker 3: it has to be like a really high standard, which

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Speaker 3: is bullshit. This was an eight one decision, UHL. So

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Speaker 3: it's not that's the thing. So okay, this this this

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Speaker 3: is important here this is being reported as an eight

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Speaker 3: one decision it's actually not because Katsia Brown Jackson filed

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Speaker 3: a concurring opinion with slightly like slightly better logic but

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Speaker 3: also still bad logic about this, so effectively, this was

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Speaker 3: a nine to zer agreement with Starbucks with like slightly

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Speaker 3: differing like reasons for concurring. Right. So yeah, and this

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Speaker 3: is you know, as as I told James yesterday, this

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Speaker 3: is in fact definitive proof that cop that workers are

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Speaker 3: not cops CO workers, because if this were a decision

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Speaker 3: about cops, it would be nine zero in the other direction. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so this is very bad. It's already like almost impossibly

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Speaker 3: difficult to get the National Labor Relations Board to intervene

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Speaker 3: to stop the shift from happening. It can happen, it's

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Speaker 3: just a really really long process, and they almost never

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Speaker 3: file any of these injections in the first place. I'm

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Speaker 3: going to read a quote from the APA that I

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Speaker 3: disagree with. The NLARB requested fewer than twenty injunctions last year,

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Speaker 3: but they serve as a powerful deterrent against firing workers

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Speaker 3: trying to unionize, said Sharon Block, a professor at Harvard

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Speaker 3: Law School and a former member of the NLRB, with

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Speaker 3: a stricter standard in place to win the reinstatement of

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Speaker 3: fired workers, more companies may feel empowered to crack down

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Speaker 3: on unionization efforts. Miss Block said, now all offense to

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Speaker 3: miss Block. I think the fact that you were on

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Speaker 3: the fucking NLRB and you weren't out there trying to

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Speaker 3: fucking organize unions makes you, in fact, not a particularly

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Speaker 3: good person to ask about how effective the NLRB's efforts

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Speaker 3: have actually been here, because I like the number of

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Speaker 3: people I know personally unrelated to any of the work

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Speaker 3: that I do, who have been fired. Your retaliation for

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Speaker 3: union organizing is extremely high. And yeah, like, obviously this

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Speaker 3: is gonna make it. You know, this is gonna make

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Speaker 3: companies more like like more willing to do it. But

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Speaker 3: it's not like the completely half assed efforts that the

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Speaker 3: NLRB was making before. We're actually like really seriously deterring

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Speaker 3: companies from firing you, right, like.

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Speaker 4: We have other It's not like there are no other

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Speaker 4: tools at the disposed of organized labor to respond to

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Speaker 4: a retaliatree something like this, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the best way to get your boss not retaliated

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Speaker 3: against you is to be well organized enough that if

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Speaker 3: they fucking try this. You breathe that, you bring your

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Speaker 3: shout to a stop, and I have seen that work, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: it is possible to get people reinstated. It's it's hard,

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Speaker 3: but you know you probably have a better shot of

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Speaker 3: like doing it by being well organized than you do

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Speaker 3: with the fucking NLRB ever getting to your case. So

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Speaker 3: you know, I like, and you know, I don't want

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Speaker 3: to be completely doom and gloom about this because it's like,

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Speaker 3: you know, like you can still definitely organize unions, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: this hasn't made it impossible to like do any of

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Speaker 3: this stuff. It's just that the legal apparatus is weighted

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Speaker 3: towards the boss, and the counteraction to legal apparatus being

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Speaker 3: weighted towards the boss is you and how well organized

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Speaker 3: you are. So we're going to go from that to

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Speaker 3: what this episode was originally supposed to be about, which

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Speaker 3: is a Preme Court wives. Yeah, and again, we were

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Speaker 3: gonna do war of this, but we're.

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Speaker 4: Making reality TV show about it instead.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's nuts, Okay. So the current big story

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Speaker 3: basically is that Samuel Alito's wife can't stop flying deranged

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Speaker 3: right wing flags.

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Speaker 4: I do love a flag person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so okay, Samuel Alito, Like, okay, So the story

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Speaker 3: that has been run within the media, and again it's

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Speaker 3: not clear how true any of this is Samuel Alito.

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Speaker 3: So we're gonna talk about a bunch of deranged right

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Speaker 3: wing flags that've been flying outside the house of Alito property.

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Speaker 3: Samuel Alito claimed that this is his wife and he

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Speaker 3: has nothing to do with it. Now do we the

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Speaker 3: public trust the word of a Supreme Court justice? And

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Speaker 3: I think the answer I'm not going to give you

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Speaker 3: the answer for you, but I'm I'm gonna lay that

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Speaker 3: out in front of you. So all right. So the

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Speaker 3: first one of these was she flew an upside down

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Speaker 3: US flag, which I had always remembered as being an

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Speaker 3: anti war thing. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I think the Chuds have tried to take it back, like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: very sad. Yeah, they're doing it because of course Joe

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Speaker 4: Biden is destroying the constitutional republic and say they're signaling

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Speaker 4: for help from other Chuds.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Originally it was a like January sixth, the US

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Speaker 3: lection has been stolen thing.

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Speaker 4: Right, Yeah? Yeah. I still someone flying the thin blue

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Speaker 4: line flag upside down the other day. Unclear if they

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Speaker 4: had to fuck the police flag as well. So, like

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Speaker 4: I guess once I saw that the situation was clarified,

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Speaker 4: but I was like, is this incredible? Is a cop

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Speaker 4: in danger? Like what's happening?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So?

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Speaker 3: And by the way, the other thing I want to

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Speaker 3: point out about this is that there are like a

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Speaker 3: bund there are a bunch of journalists who knew about

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Speaker 3: this like in twenty twenty one and then just sat

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Speaker 3: on it and didn't talk about it until like this

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Speaker 3: series the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah, and this

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Speaker 3: is this is this is this is why I refused.

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Speaker 3: I like, I largely refuse to call myself a journalist

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Speaker 3: because these people are fucking hacks and frauds who just

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Speaker 3: sit on the stupid thing for their fucking book releases. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, those people don't know to be called jeneralists, right,

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Speaker 4: it's pathetic. Like your job as a journalist is to

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Speaker 4: hold power to account and if you're not doing that

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Speaker 4: because you want to sell more books or yeah, grift university.

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Speaker 3: And again, this would have been fucking useful to know

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Speaker 3: in that actual like in the in the because because

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Speaker 3: in the immediate aftermath of January sixth, there was an

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Speaker 3: actual sort of a desire to do something about it,

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Speaker 3: and maybe if if you know, people had fucking know

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Speaker 3: that the wife of a Supreme Court justice was fucking

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Speaker 3: flying the shitty ass flag again probably actually a Supreme

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Speaker 3: Court justice, like was flying this shitty ass the electu

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Speaker 3: was stolen flag. So that's part one of the flag news. Now.

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Speaker 3: Apparently partially what's going on is she's been getting into

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Speaker 3: a bunch of fights with her neighbors who fucking hate

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Speaker 3: her because she's an asshole, and she's.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, if you live within eyesight of her house,

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Speaker 4: I will ship you one big a do crime flag.

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Speaker 3: They they apparently have been doing that ship and trolling, controlling,

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Speaker 3: which is fucking heroes. Hero Get how how mad this

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Speaker 3: made her later, But one of the other flags that

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Speaker 3: she's been flying is a flag I had forgotten about,

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Speaker 3: which is the do you know the Appeal to Heaven flag?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, yes, unfortunately I do may because I drive

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Speaker 4: around East County, San Diego.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, A little tree flag for those who are not familiar,

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Speaker 4: little pine tree on a white background. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So okay, So this flag has been taken up by

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Speaker 3: so it's it's been spread around basically, writing is kind

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Speaker 3: of more generally now, but it was it was originally

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Speaker 3: sort of reaped. This is a revolutionary war flag that

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Speaker 3: nobody has flown in like two hundred years, but it's

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Speaker 3: been taking back up by the New Epostolic Reformation, which

425
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Speaker 3: is like the guys oh boy, oh boy. Okay, So

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Speaker 3: they're a juror, like a deranged Christian nationalist like organization

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Speaker 3: of churches that has combined the most deranged principles of

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Speaker 3: the most deranged Christian sect, which is to say, Pentecostalism,

429
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Speaker 3: Charismatic Christianity, and like a very specific kind of insane dominionism,

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Speaker 3: and they have combined all of them together to form

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Speaker 3: like the super ideology that's like it's it's it's the

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Speaker 3: fucking like it's it's, it's it's the it's the dragon

433
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:56,199
Speaker 3: ball z fusion of like literally the worst parts of

434
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 3: every insane right wing Christian ideology. And so they have

435
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 3: come out with the belief that like they have been

436
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 3: basically chosen by God to like seize control of the

437
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 3: US and into a theocracy.

438
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 4: Okay, they're like the power ranges of of Christian chads.

439
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,439
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, Like it's like Marjorie Taylor Green's involved with

440
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 3: like Larry Leo is one of the big Federalist Society guys,

441
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,959
Speaker 3: like also was flying this flag, and the Federal Society

442
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 3: has funneled a bunch of money to like a bunch

443
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 3: of like right wing legal cases and stuff. So this

444
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 3: is this is very good.

445
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 4: So you used to see it a lot in the

446
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 4: Pacific Northwest among that kind of white separatist Christian Yeah,

447
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 4: like inward on their plate carriers a lot and stuff.

448
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 4: That's kind of what I associate it with.

449
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is this has been like like last year,

450
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:47,520
Speaker 3: this was flying over Samuel Alito's beach house. So great

451
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 3: things out thing here.

452
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 4: Fuck me.

453
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 3: Yeah. So there's there's also a third piece of of

454
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:58,400
Speaker 3: missus Alito flag news, which is that so she got

455
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 3: Project veritosed by a little documentary filmmaker. They like did

456
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 3: a sting operation, like when it bought a ticket to

457
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: one of her dinners are pretended to be a conservative

458
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 3: and filmed her. And I'm gonna read this quote from

459
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,399
Speaker 3: from Rolling Stowe that's about like what she said. You

460
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 3: know what I want? Miss Alito says, I want a

461
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 3: sacred Heart of Jesus flag because I have to look

462
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 3: across a lagoon at the Pride flag for the next month.

463
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 3: Referencing her husband, miss Alito said, he's like, oh, please,

464
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 3: don't put up the flag. I said, I won't do

465
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 3: it because I'm deferring to you. But when you are

466
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,719
Speaker 3: free of this nonsense, I'm putting it up and I'm

467
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 3: gonna send them a message every day, maybe every week.

468
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 3: I'll be changing the flags. They'll be all kinds. I

469
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 3: made a flag in my head. This is how I

470
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 3: satisfy myself. I made a flag as white and yellow

471
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 3: and orange flames around it, and in the middle is

472
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 3: the word of begonia in Italian means shame virgona v

473
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 3: e r g og na virgona shame, shame, shame on you.

474
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: She adds.

475
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 3: So she's so mad about gay people that she's making

476
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 3: up flags in her head that's gonna fly to own them.

477
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 4: Homophobic vexillology. That's uh, that's it's a new level of

478
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 4: fucking like having your brain broken by gay people existing.

479
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 3: It's nuts.

480
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 4: Do you know what hangs over my head like a

481
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 4: flag that says shame?

482
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 3: Is it?

483
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 4: Is it?

484
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 3: The price of services? Is what this podcast is?

485
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 4: The obligation to pivot to adverts.

486
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:34,880
Speaker 3: Yes, okay, So there is one last part of this

487
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 3: story that hasn't been getting any coverage at all that

488
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 3: I'm very alarmed about because and maybe it's the thing

489
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 3: I should have I should have led with. Okay, I'm

490
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 3: gonna read you this, and I am going to ask

491
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 3: you for a conceivable, possible alternative explanation. That is not

492
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 3: that is not. Samuel Leo's wife is openly saying she

493
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 3: is a Nazi. Quote when Windsor, Windsor is the name

494
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 3: of the filmmaker who did the like sting. When Windsor

495
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 3: tells Miss Alito she's being persecuted in and depicted as

496
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 3: a convenient stand in for anybody who's religious, the Justice's

497
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 3: wife gets quieter and her tone turns more serious. Look

498
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 3: at me, Look at me. I'm German. I'm from Germany.

499
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 3: My heritage is German. You come after me. I'm gonna

500
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 3: give it back to you, and there will be a way.

501
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be now, but there will be

502
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 3: a way. They know. Don't worry about it. God, you

503
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 3: read the Bible. Psalm twenty seven is my psalm mine,

504
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 3: Psalm twenty seven. The Lord is by God and by

505
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 3: Rock of whom shall I be afraid nobody.

506
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 4: Now, Wow, Yeah, a lot of real emphasis on being German.

507
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 3: What possible? Genuinely, I defy anyone to come up with

508
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 3: a possible explanation of what the sentence. Look at me,

509
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 3: Look at me. I'm German, I'm from Germany. My heritage

510
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 3: is German. You come after me, I'm gonna give it

511
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 3: back to you. What possible? She is just straight up

512
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 3: saying I am a German Nazi. And this is something

513
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 3: that fucking media has access to, and no one is

514
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 3: leading with a story that says Samuel Aleto's wife says

515
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 3: that she's a Nazi. I'm going insane. I fuck it,

516
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 3: We're we're, we're. I've actually banged my microphone. We're fucking

517
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 3: leading this episode with the title Samuel Aleto's wife admits

518
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 3: she's a Nazi and other Supreme Court news because fuck them,

519
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 3: someone's gotta do this. This is insane, This is nuts.

520
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 3: What the fuck this is?

521
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,239
Speaker 4: This is a bizarre thing to say, like to so much.

522
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 4: She knew to this passing with the journalists.

523
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, she thought that they were a conservative activist.

524
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 3: So what's happening here, I think is like like basically

525
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: like kind of in private, like like in conservative circle,

526
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 3: she's trying to say old people that like no, like

527
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,199
Speaker 3: I'm a fucking Nazi, like I'm down with you fucking right.

528
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, it's sort of they're not saying the thing,

529
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 4: but saying to sing.

530
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, like like it it's like it's it's not even

531
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: dog whishing, it's just very openly telling selectives of people

532
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 3: like hey, this is where I stand. So that is

533
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 3: not good. And again this guy is one of the

534
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 3: one of the unelected people who can at any moment,

535
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 3: moment strip any right from you for effectively any reason.

536
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 3: So that's great, Yeah, great, wonderful.

537
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 4: I'm still yeah, mind boggled at this, Like yeah, I

538
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 4: mean even if yeah, we're German, what are you gonna do,

539
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 4: Like you have a two for two l rate in world.

540
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're gonna lose a third.

541
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 4: More, get yours you again, get get divided in half?

542
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 4: Have you given to Russia? Like what.

543
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 3: It is? Like we we have not done much coverage

544
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 3: of how insane Germany has gotten right now, but like

545
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: like there are like there are entire mobs of like

546
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 3: people in dance clubs chanting Germany is for Germans, like

547
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: the eight Like there their Nazi party is like about

548
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 3: to take control.

549
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 4: Disband a number of like police and special force units.

550
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, the Nazis. Yeah yeah, what's not this all

551
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 4: Nazis like that. You can be a Nazi in the

552
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 4: German police force care that much. But it's because they

553
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 4: were specific They keep on specifically getting caught, either with

554
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 4: kill lists of politicians or with the planned to overthrow

555
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 4: the government. Yeah yeah, so like you know, so so

556
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 4: we we like this, this, this is this is my

557
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 4: Like Germany is the one country on earth that would

558
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 4: be improved by an American occupation and then being split

559
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 4: into like thirty five like every single country in the

560
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 4: world gets their one square mile of Germany to rule

561
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 4: over that. This would significantly improve Germany as a country.

562
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 4: I love that. Yeah, turn it turned it into the

563
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 4: model Uan.

564
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 3: Yeah. So from our plan to make Germany an international

565
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 3: occupied territory.

566
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 4: At Cott Atcott to Germany, there we go.

567
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, we need to talk about there's even more. Just

568
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 3: as Thomas bullshit. I thought there was only going to

569
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 3: be one Justice Thomas story, and then a second Justice

570
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 3: Thomas story broke as I was writing the script. So okay,

571
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 3: So the Senate Judiciary Committee finally sort of got off

572
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: its ass and decided to look at Justice Thomas's like

573
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 3: obvious brea money from Harlan crow and a bunch of

574
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: other mega donors, and they found lo and behold, Thomas

575
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 3: took three more undisclosed private jet flights of Harlenklowro. Again,

576
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 3: these people are just like obviously taking bribe money. No,

577
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 3: Congress won't do anything. Dick Durbin will issue a strongly

578
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 3: worded statement. Who he's the head of the Senate Judiciary Committee,

579
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 3: will offer a strongly worded statement do nothing. So, yeah,

580
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 3: if anything is going to be done to the Streame Court,

581
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 3: it's going to be done by you, not by the

582
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: fucking Congress that you dominantly elect. Uh, because they just

583
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 3: don't give a shit. We also learned, so do you

584
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 3: remember were you on the Clarence Thomas episodes.

585
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 4: I know, I didn't think I was.

586
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 3: Oh no, yeah, that might have been a me and

587
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 3: garre one. Yeah. So one of the things that we

588
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 3: learned was that Harlan Crowe had paid an unbelievable amount,

589
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 3: like like hundreds of thousands of dollars to send Thomas's grandnephew,

590
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: who he was like quote unquote raising like a son

591
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 3: and send him to like expensive private schools.

592
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 4: So normal.

593
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, so so we learned to we learned today or

594
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 3: like like maybe two days ago that Thomas So okay,

595
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 3: so that this kid that like he had like raised

596
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 3: as a son, they just like completely So someone like

597
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 3: some some media people like caught up with his son

598
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 3: who's now in jail pending charges. Yeah, and his his

599
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 3: his he's not going to be fucking bailed out by

600
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 3: Justice Thomas who apparently like lost interest in him when

601
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 3: he reached high school and just shipped him off to

602
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 3: a boarding school. And then we always at boarding school, he

603
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 3: got he got expelled for failing a drug test and

604
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 3: they just like sen him back to his mom and

605
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: cut him off. And he's talked to him like once

606
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 3: or twice in the last fourteen years. Fucking So that's great,

607
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 3: real piece of shit.

608
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, what having Clarence Thomas as a as

609
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 4: a as a patental figure in your life. That's to

610
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 4: a motherfucker I can't imagine.

611
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 3: So yeah, like I I true, I truly feel bad

612
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 3: for this guy. Uh yeah, yeah, fuck Clarence Thomas. Finally

613
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 3: to round up the Supreme Court news literally there like

614
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 3: the board. Like in the morning, the script was like

615
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 3: done right, and then again I wake up and there's

616
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 3: breaking new Supreme Court has struck down Federal Bureau of

617
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 3: Tobacco and Firearms thing banning bump stocks. So I'm gonna

618
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 3: ask you to talk about bump stocks because I think

619
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 3: I know what they are. But I'm not a gun person.

620
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 4: So yeah, I'm happy to happy to be the token

621
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 4: Cis white guy to talk about guns here. Yeah, So

622
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 4: the ATF under Donald Trump, for a long time, the

623
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 4: ATF it explicitly said that bump stocks were not machine guns.

624
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 4: After the Las Vegas shooting, in which one was used

625
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 4: the bump stock with the rules of machine guns, they

626
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 4: kind of pivoted.

627
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: Right.

628
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 4: What it bump stock is for those who are not familiar,

629
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 4: It's a device that kind of uses the recoil of

630
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 4: the weapon to kind of re fire. So basically it

631
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 4: allows you to fire much more quickly, right. But crucially,

632
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 4: the trigger is going forward and back, unlike a machine

633
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 4: gun where you hold the trigger to the rear right

634
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 4: and the gun continues to fire. It's sort of you

635
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 4: can look up. I think it's probably much easier if

636
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 4: you can see it. But it's kind of a device

637
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 4: that connects the stock and then the pistol grip of

638
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 4: the weapon, and then it bounces back and forward, and

639
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 4: in doing so moves the finger back and forward. You

640
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 4: can also bump fire a gun without one, which is

641
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 4: just I just don't want to describe how to do that,

642
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 4: but if you probably know already, there are videos on

643
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 4: YouTube like like, it's not not a thing that's illegal,

644
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 4: I don't think, but neither of these are particularly effective.

645
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 4: It's kind of a range toy thing, like it's a

646
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 4: way to quickly turn money into noise. I don't think that.

647
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 4: Like they were massive craze, like a lot of these

648
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 4: gun things right there, there are like five big accounts

649
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 4: on YouTube, which set the fact that whatever they're craze, Like,

650
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 4: gun people are very much like like like preteens, you know,

651
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 4: you know, when you're in school and suddenly everyone's got

652
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 4: a fucking yoyo and if you don't have a yo yo,

653
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 4: you're a complete weave and then fuck your yoyo. It's

654
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 4: Pokemon cards. Yeah, that's the that's a lot of the

655
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 4: firearms industry. So like these were a big craze and

656
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 4: then they kind of weren't, and specifically when when the

657
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 4: Donald Trump ATF banned them, right, a lot of people

658
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 4: were like, oh, you don't need them any way. They

659
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 4: find that they're they're useless. Like they definitely allow you

660
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 4: to fire fire quicker, and you can have the gun

661
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 4: in your in your shoulder, which you can't do when

662
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 4: you're regularly bump firing it, but they're not. It's not

663
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 4: the same as a machine gun in terms of effectiveness

664
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 4: in my opinion. So yeah, now you can buy one

665
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 4: again if you really want one. In certain states. I'm

666
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 4: sure that there are state laws. I'm sure California still

667
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 4: bands him, but well you can't have a pistol grip

668
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 4: on your semi automatic rifle in California unless it's mad glove.

669
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 4: But yeah, I don't think it's a big deal, Like

670
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 4: I'm looking right now, and of course, like you know

671
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,399
Speaker 4: NBC and ship, it's like the end of the world

672
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,919
Speaker 4: is nigh. Everyone now has a belt fed machine gun.

673
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 4: Not really, it's not. That's not kind of what they do.

674
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 4: You can fire faster, but I don't think it's it's

675
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 4: going to make a meaningful change in the lethality of firearms,

676
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 4: and civilians have access to Some couple use it as

677
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 4: an excuse to be to be a fucking coward like

678
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 4: they were a uvalde, right, But we can't control that.

679
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 4: I think it does signal, like post Bruin, right, which

680
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 4: was a concealed, carried decision, a willingness of the court

681
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 4: to go after the ATF.

682
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 2: They didn't.

683
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 4: There's a thing called I think it's called a Chevron

684
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 4: It's not a Chevron rule. Is it a Chevron doctrine?

685
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 4: Chevron doctrine, right, Yeah, where like essentially that they they're

686
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 4: telling lower courts not to challenge legislatives or like opinions.

687
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 4: The ATF is not itself a law making body, but

688
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 4: it can appine on what laws mean, but those can

689
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 4: be challenged in courts. They didn't touch the Chevron doctrine

690
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 4: with regards to the ATF here, but I think we

691
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 4: will see other cases. Three D printed gun cases, for instance,

692
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 4: go up to a Supreme Court and probably get a

693
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 4: favorable decision for gun rights. There's there's, there's this Supreme

694
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 4: Court and the big ones, the ones that would make

695
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,280
Speaker 4: a meaningful difference at least to people in restricted states,

696
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 4: would be assault weapons bands like we have in California.

697
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 4: And magazine capacity bands like we have in California, right,

698
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 4: So California, a lot of other states limit you to

699
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 4: ten rounds. California, you kind of have a pistol grape

700
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 4: on a semi automatic rifle and some other features and

701
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 4: less the magazines locked to the weapon. It requires disassembly

702
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,799
Speaker 4: to reload. So those would make a meaningful difference to

703
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 4: gun rights for people in those states. This I think

704
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 4: is that big of a deal personally, Like, look, look,

705
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 4: fucking people are all over the place with fully automatic

706
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 4: locks because they bought a little three printed switch on

707
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 4: like either online or I like apparently people are buying

708
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 4: them on the alley Express, which is fucking unwise because

709
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 4: it's coming into the country and like a customer's going

710
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 4: to look at that. Yeah, but I've seen that in

711
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,279
Speaker 4: court cases. But yeah, this is not that, you know,

712
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 4: like people are making auto sears for AAR fifteens or

713
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 4: court cases about that too. I don't think this is

714
00:36:58,239 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 4: that big of a deal, but it may be indicate

715
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 4: that we will see other other changes in firearm legislation.

716
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's our wrap up

717
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 3: Supreme Court news. I don't know it's possible some other

718
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 3: bullshit drops at the end of today. But yeah, this

719
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 3: has been recorded on Friday, the whatever, the fourteenth, So

720
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 3: if there's if if, if the Supreme Court has done

721
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 3: more bullshit, I'm sorry we didn't get to it, but

722
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 3: that that that's all we got for Supreme Court today. Yeah, Flags, friends, Yeah,

723
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 3: my fly fly funnier Flags.

724
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here. I am Sophieleckerman. I

725
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 1: am the executive producer of all of Cool Zone Media,

726
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: and I didn't have time to touch grass today, so

727
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: this is the closest I'm going to get to that.

728
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 1: And here with me leading the conversation will be James

729
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: Stout And also here is one of my favorite people

730
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: on this entire planet, Alli Conger, James, take it away.

731
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 4: Thank you, Sophie. Magnificent intro. As Sophie said, we're here

732
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 4: today to talk about grass. So no really grass, but

733
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 4: it just like plants in general. I wanted to do

734
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 4: an episode on having a little garden because I think

735
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 4: it is a thing that would make people happy, and

736
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 4: also it's a way to have food for yourself. It's

737
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 4: not free, but once the plants keep growing, you don't

738
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 4: have to pay any more for the food, so it's

739
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 4: a nice thing to do. I enjoyed to grow plants

740
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 4: and I wanted to share that with you. Do you

741
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 4: have little gardens, Molly and Sophie.

742
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 5: Yes. Oh so, I moved to a new apartment last year,

743
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 5: and in sort of a rare and strange arrangement, my

744
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 5: first floor apartment has like a little dirt patch's I

745
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 5: think it was originally supposed to be where the HVAC

746
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 5: units are, because it's like walled off by this sort

747
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 5: of tall wall. It's this ten foot by ten foot pit,

748
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 5: but the HVAC units are not there. So that's where

749
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 5: I grow my tomatoes.

750
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, or is currently a fruit garden. I have a

751
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: bunch of things starting in pots. I've got a lemon tree.

752
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: I've got a mandarin tree, which I'm really excited about.

753
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: I grew a mandarin tree when I lived in California

754
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: and then gifted to my dad and then he gifted

755
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 1: it to a friend of his and it's still doing

756
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: really well, so that's nice. I have a boys and

757
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: berry plant. I have what did I just buy? I'm

758
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: trying to think I just bought another fruit thing. Oh,

759
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: it's like some citrus hybrid thing. So My porch is

760
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: filled with fruit things that should live for a very

761
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: long time. And then my friend Sarah is on a

762
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: gardening kick and so anything else we grow in her

763
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: yard and she's growing literally everything that's good.

764
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 4: Love to grow everything. Yeah, so if you want to

765
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 4: grow everything, if you're listening and you're thinking, I would

766
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 4: like to be like Sophia money and grow vegetables and trees.

767
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,720
Speaker 4: Trees are hid, especially if you're a renter.

768
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to start them in a pot and

769
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 1: then depending on climate, I bring mine inside during the

770
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: cool times and I have them under a grow bulb.

771
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 1: It's not a quick commitment.

772
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 4: No, Yeah, it is an undertaking. And yeah, if you

773
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,360
Speaker 4: want to let them grow big, then you either have

774
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,959
Speaker 4: to get giant pots or put them in the ground.

775
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 4: Did they put them in the ground?

776
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: Which is hard when most people in this country can't

777
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: afford to buy a home.

778
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 4: Yes, it is. It sucks. And then you don't want

779
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 4: to be giving things to your landlord for free because

780
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 4: fucking yeah. Well, let's talk about things that you can

781
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 4: do in a smaller timeframe than trees. So I've just

782
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 4: got a few bullet points here. We're going to go

783
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 4: through them and you can interrupt me with your experiences

784
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 4: or question, should you have any, But if you're making

785
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 4: a little guiden for yourself, obviously you're going to have

786
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 4: to start out with choosing a spot for your garden.

787
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 4: And it depends, I think, on where you live. So

788
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 4: if you're like on the fifth floor and you don't

789
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,439
Speaker 4: have access to any ground yard garden soil, that could

790
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 4: be your windowsill, right, it could be your balcony if

791
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,320
Speaker 4: you have a balcony. All you really need is somewhere

792
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 4: that has good access to sunlight. All the other stuff

793
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 4: you can bring in yourself.

794
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: Right.

795
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 4: You can bring the soil yourself, You can bring the

796
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 4: water and all the nutrients that your plants need. But

797
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 4: obviously I guess you could make the sunlight. In my kitchen,

798
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,879
Speaker 4: I have a little arrow garden which has its own

799
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:21,360
Speaker 4: little UV light bulb, and you can use those to

800
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 4: grow some stuff. Or people have maybe some other hydroponic

801
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 4: gardening experience. They have done.

802
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 5: Elaborate setups for their tomatoes.

803
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you remember that. I think it was like

804
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen when everybody's relative gave them one of those

805
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,240
Speaker 1: like indoor herb garden kits that don't oh the arrow garden.

806
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yah, the air garden.

807
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 4: I have one of those. They work.

808
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: No no, no, no no, not the expensive arrow garden one,

809
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:46,480
Speaker 1: but the knockoff ones.

810
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 5: Everybody doesn't want to one.

811
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody got one of those, and then you saw

812
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: them elsewhere.

813
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,439
Speaker 5: And that sort of commodification is so silly, right, because

814
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,439
Speaker 5: to grow like a little pot of basil, you don't

815
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 5: need stuff. You don't need to buy a thing windowsill.

816
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 1: I can't grow basil. I really we're not compatible.

817
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 4: Interesting.

818
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 1: I love basil. I use it constantly. I try to

819
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:09,919
Speaker 1: grow it. I kill it every time.

820
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 4: What way is it dying?

821
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 5: It just wilts.

822
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 4: Basil doesn't like its feet in the water. It has

823
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 4: to have quite dry soil.

824
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: It wilts. So then I'll try again and i'll ignore it.

825
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: It wilts. I'll try it again, and i'll give it

826
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: a little bit of water. It wilts. I'll try it again.

827
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,919
Speaker 1: I'll give it a lot of water. It wilts. I'll

828
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: try it again, and I guess how it ends.

829
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 4: It wilt.

830
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 5: I have an abundance of it because I'm constantly topping it.

831
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 5: Because you want to top your basil all the time

832
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 5: so that it branches instead of flowering. So when I

833
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 5: top it, I'm like, why, I don't want to waste this.

834
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,919
Speaker 5: I'll root these and I have, like, you know, seven

835
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 5: hundred basils.

836
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: Well it's me.

837
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 4: Maybe Molly could send one to Sophie and we could see.

838
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're welcome to some of my basil.

839
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, because pesto's one of the greatest things that's ever

840
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 1: happened to anybody.

841
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 4: Mm hm Oh you need this a little pine nut,

842
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,959
Speaker 4: pine tree, I guess, and some basil and a little

843
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 4: sheep and you can make pecorino cheese. There you go,

844
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 4: and then yeah, and some manchovies.

845
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 5: Of course, you just need your own sheep.

846
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, everyone should have.

847
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: Well, Anderson would have the best time hurting one.

848
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 4: Sheep that the poor sheep were probably not.

849
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: I pictured it. It's really funny.

850
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,280
Speaker 4: You can't just have one sheep. They need friends. Sheep

851
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 4: are not a solitary animal, so yeah, you'd have to

852
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 4: go several.

853
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: Well, Anderson will hurt them all.

854
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'd love to see that. All right. So if

855
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 4: you've selected your spot right where you have access to sunlight,

856
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 4: the next thing you need is a vessel. So during COVID,

857
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 4: lots of people started gardens. Not that we are not

858
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 4: also in COVID right now, right, but during the lockdown

859
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 4: twenty twenty, when everyone was working from home for the

860
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 4: first time, people started their little guidance, and I think

861
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 4: lots of folks who didn't start back then or you

862
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 4: moved house since then, Like people just built lots of planters,

863
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 4: often in that area between the pavement and the road,

864
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 4: which has an that I've forgotten. Now.

865
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 5: Oh, that's one of those things that has a different

866
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 5: name in every region of the US, and wherever you go,

867
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 5: if you're calling it the wrong thing, people look at

868
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 5: you like you're an alien.

869
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:10,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know what that's called in California.

870
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 5: I think in New Jersey they call it the Devil's Strip.

871
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: For real.

872
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure we're going to.

873
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,399
Speaker 4: Call it the devil Strip in this podcast because that's

874
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 4: a better name than I could come up with. If

875
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 4: you're gardening in the Devil's Strip, that sounds like a

876
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 4: euphemism for growing weed, like when people call it the

877
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 4: Devil's Letters. Yeah, you're growing your Devil's letters and the

878
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,720
Speaker 4: Devil Strip. That's a good place to build a planter,

879
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 4: right generally, like you should be able to obtain lumber

880
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 4: for that somewhere like, I don't think you should be

881
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 4: paying for lumber in this day and age. Yeah, and

882
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 4: they're pretty easy to build, right if you are building

883
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 4: a planter some considerations, you probably shouldn't stain the inside

884
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 4: of the lumber that you're using. There's stuff in there

885
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 4: that you probably don't want it if you intend to

886
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 4: eat the plants. I think it's a pretty bad idea.

887
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 4: Or to get lumber which is pre treated. Right, if

888
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 4: you get some think which is naturally resistant to rotting,

889
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 4: like a hot like redwood or something like that, that's

890
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 4: going to last a bit longer, right.

891
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you should be able to find some

892
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: kind of cedar or redwood around. I agree with your

893
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: assessment that you should not have to pay for that. Yeah,

894
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 1: although it's not something that if you have like a

895
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: good local hardware store, it's not something that's super expensive.

896
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: But price it before you buy it, that is what

897
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: I'll say.

898
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 5: And it's certainly cheaper to just buy the wood than

899
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 5: it is to buy like a pre made wooden plant.

900
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

901
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:31,919
Speaker 5: The mark upon that is crazy.

902
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 1: Incredibly overpriced for something that you would find at a

903
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:35,800
Speaker 1: big box store.

904
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 4: Yeah. And crap too, there was one in one place

905
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 4: I live that was like maybe a quarter of an

906
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 4: inch thick, and like it dovetailed together, but then like

907
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 4: the dovetails kind of bulged out when they got too

908
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 4: wet and it was not a good figure. Don't don't

909
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 4: buy one, build one. If you have decking screws in

910
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 4: two by fours, you can build your own planetary. Doesn't

911
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 4: degree require a high level of carpentry knowledge. And you're

912
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 4: gonna have to put some soil in your planter, right,

913
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 4: You could grow plants in like leka likers like the

914
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 4: clay composite. Have you seen this little balls? Yeah, but

915
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 4: I think I have. Yeah, just to start off with,

916
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 4: we'll we'll start with soil because it's the easiest thing

917
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 4: to access. I think in lots of cities you can

918
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 4: get free compost if you go to the tip. I

919
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 4: don't know if that's the case where you guys live,

920
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 4: but here you can get free compust if you go

921
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 4: to the tip.

922
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: I'm unfamiliar with that, but now I'm like, wait, can

923
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: we do that because we should?

924
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 4: Right?

925
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 5: Have I been missing out on free dirt because I've

926
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:35,240
Speaker 5: I've been paying for dirt?

927
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, this is a huge life act. Do you

928
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 4: have those green bins where you put like compostable rubbish.

929
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:43,439
Speaker 5: Of course, Oh no, we don't.

930
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 4: So if he lives in Portland, yeah, I like I

931
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 4: live in Portland, of course. Okay, So if you have that,

932
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 4: I'm guessing your municipality is composting it, right, which would

933
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 4: mean that it has a large amount of compost, at

934
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 4: least in San Diego. I would be blown away if

935
00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 4: San Diego was leading the way and giving residents any

936
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 4: think other than more cops for their taxpayer dollars, we

937
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 4: can get free. I have a pickup truck. I think

938
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 4: I can get too pick up trucks full of compost.

939
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 4: You have to go and shovel it yourself right into

940
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 4: your truck, and obviously you have to have some kind

941
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 4: of vehicle to transport it. But it's a good way

942
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 4: to get free soil, especially if you're like doing a project. Often,

943
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 4: if you're planting vegetables in your garden, right, the soil

944
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 4: that you're planting them into might not be good quality

945
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 4: top soil, right. That top soil might have been taken

946
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 4: away when you're building's constructed, or you might have all

947
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 4: kinds of aggregate waste sort of mixed in there right,

948
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 4: gravel and stuff like that, it might not be the

949
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 4: best quality growing soil. So if you can going to

950
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,479
Speaker 4: getting some of the free compost is the move. What

951
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 4: I like to do when I'm starting a little garden

952
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 4: and I've got my soil is to do a soil

953
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,240
Speaker 4: chemistry test. Have you guys done soil chemistry tests?

954
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: I have.

955
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 5: My style of gardening is more just kind of vibing out, okay.

956
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: More of a violides based hey Portland. As free compost is.

957
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 5: I get information overload really fast. When I first started

958
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 5: my little garden, I thought like, I'm go do some googling.

959
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 5: I'm gonna do some researching. I'm gonna go to the

960
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 5: Agricultural Extension website and learn about my local soil. And

961
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 5: then like, once i have seventy tabs open and I'm

962
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 5: trying to consume the information, I was like, you know what,

963
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 5: plants grow outside. They'll be fine, They'll be fine.

964
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 3: It is true.

965
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 4: There is a lot you can do and a lot

966
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:22,800
Speaker 4: that you don't have to do when it comes to

967
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 4: gre own cliants. My mother was a lecture in agricultural Therefore,

968
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 4: I'm bound to get a little home test kit and

969
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 4: test today do you know what the three essential nutrients are?

970
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 4: We turn it into a quiz format for plants.

971
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 5: Nitrogen, yeah, a different element.

972
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 4: That's correct. H These are things, These are real things.

973
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: All I can think of is fat, that's right, salt, fat, acid, heat.

974
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 4: If your plant isn't hitting its macros, it will not

975
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 4: get swollen exactly. One of the things about.

976
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 5: I'm feeding much imatos creatine?

977
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:01,439
Speaker 1: Is that right?

978
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 2: Yeah?

979
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's why they're hench as fun.

980
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: Are we talking like magnesium?

981
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 4: Close? U? That two is an element?

982
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 5: I had nitrogen though, that's right, Yeah.

983
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 4: Molly is yeah, Muddy got that one right. I was

984
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 4: trying to do it like a ratio. I couldn't work

985
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 4: it out.

986
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:22,120
Speaker 1: Nitrogen phosphorus, Okay, I was like almost there.

987
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:24,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're very close with magnesia.

988
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 5: Are you growing a gardener blowing up a federal building?

989
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 4: James Porque, Nola's do Molly, I'm growing a guarden for

990
00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 4: legal and truth based reasons. I'm growing a guard You

991
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 4: want nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Those are your three essential nutrients.

992
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 4: There are fifteen other nkroen nutrients. I guess that plants

993
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 4: need vitamins. Yeah, the little you know omega threes for

994
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 4: their joints. They need MP and K in different ratios

995
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 4: depending on different plants.

996
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: Right, Molly and I are like, we're here to talk

997
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: about plants. Why are we in chemistry? What's happening?

998
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 5: James? I buy a bag that says Tomato food and

999
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,640
Speaker 5: there's a picture of a cartoon tomato on it. That's

1000
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 5: what I know you're doing.

1001
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 1: Great.

1002
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 4: You can't go wrong with looking at the picture on

1003
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 4: the thing. I use this technique for all kinds of things.

1004
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 4: It's why I don't buy Quaker oats anymore. Very disturbing.

1005
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 4: So you're going to seek to have the soil chemistry

1006
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 4: that suits the plants that you want to grow. Right,

1007
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 4: You can't really like improve your soil unless you know

1008
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 4: where you're starting from. So you're going to look at

1009
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 4: the NPK and the pH and then going from there.

1010
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 4: When you're buying commercial fertilizers, you can normally see the

1011
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 4: balance or sit on the bag or sit on the website, right,

1012
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 4: and you're trying to augment that soil to get the

1013
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 4: soil chemistry you want to grow the plants that you

1014
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 4: want to eat, or maybe not eat, maybe just have.

1015
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 4: You can also add organic matters to your soil. If

1016
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,319
Speaker 4: you're doing that, like, you're just gonna have to like

1017
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 4: test and test again kind of think, because when your cowshits,

1018
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 4: you don't get a bag which then gives you the

1019
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 4: amount of nightgen phosphorus and potassium.

1020
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 5: That's why I buy the cowshit in a bag.

1021
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 4: James, Wow, that's a great business idea.

1022
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 5: No, they sell it a lows.

1023
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 4: They said it lows cowshit in a bag. Okay, maybe

1024
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 4: that is a wonderful time to take a break for advertisements.

1025
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:24,800
Speaker 5: Hopefully one of the advertisers is Shit.

1026
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 4: In the Bag, Shit in a Bag. Longtime supporter of

1027
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 4: the show, I please enjoy this advert for shit in

1028
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 4: the Bag. We are back. We've returned from discussing things

1029
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 4: that we could pretend we're shit in a bag, which

1030
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,640
Speaker 4: we're not going to share with you. You'll have to guess. Okay,

1031
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 4: So I like to use chicken manure for mine, but

1032
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 4: you do have to rot it down right. If you're

1033
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 4: putting manure on your soil, it'll burn it if you

1034
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:55,120
Speaker 4: just dump it straight on there. You can't just literally

1035
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 4: dump shit into your soil. This hopefully is not used

1036
00:51:58,080 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 4: to anyone.

1037
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:00,560
Speaker 5: Got to age it like a fire. Wine.

1038
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. It does improve with age. Buttlet up, cork

1039
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 4: it and put a vintage on it and then rotate

1040
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:08,840
Speaker 4: it every few years so it doesn't get sediment in

1041
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 4: the bottom. If you can get a compost here and

1042
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 4: you can go after making your own compust, it's a

1043
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 4: fun thing to do. You get one of the barrel

1044
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 4: composters that you turn.

1045
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 5: I have one of those.

1046
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh yeah.

1047
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 5: Because my dirt patch is like not really supposed to

1048
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:21,439
Speaker 5: be a garden. I don't have a lot of room

1049
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 5: for a compost. Heap love a compost, eat better way

1050
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 5: to do it. But because I just have patio space,

1051
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 5: and I have one of those big plastic compost tumblers,

1052
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 5: and I love it. It works pretty good, pretty fast.

1053
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,400
Speaker 5: I was lucky enough last year. This was not intentional.

1054
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,280
Speaker 5: I did not invite them. But I have black soldier

1055
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 5: flies in my compost. Do you know those little guys? Hmm,

1056
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 5: they're like pretty long, shiny black flies. But their larva

1057
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 5: are these like little grubs, And so I open my compost,

1058
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 5: it was like, who the hell are all these grubs?

1059
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:55,600
Speaker 5: But black soldier fly larva just devour organic matter and

1060
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 5: so they break down They break down your compost really fast.

1061
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 5: I love them so much that I just bought some

1062
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 5: he gave in the mail today. I got a box

1063
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 5: in the mail today that said, like caution, live bugs.

1064
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 5: I dump dump tho little babies in my tumbler.

1065
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 4: Nice. Yeah, hope they thrive there.

1066
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, they love it in there.

1067
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:15,680
Speaker 4: Yeah. We had some love I didn't know what they were,

1068
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 4: but we had a compost heat that I moved a

1069
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 4: couple of years ago. When I moved it, the chickens

1070
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:23,919
Speaker 4: had probably the best day of it, just chasing around people.

1071
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 5: Farm Black Soldier fly as chicken feed so that you

1072
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 5: can have this coole setup where you're growing them on

1073
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 5: purpose and then they sort of fall down the tray

1074
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,800
Speaker 5: and the chickens eat them. I don't have any chickens yet.

1075
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 5: I think my apartment neighbors would not like that.

1076
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 4: Fuck fuck them moneys to play rage against the machine

1077
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 4: as you install your chicken cube.

1078
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 5: I mean the dogs would love it. Buck has met

1079
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 5: a chicken before, and in his mind it is like

1080
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 5: the rawest chicken, right, Like this is the most tempting.

1081
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 4: Treat of the forbidden dog treat, the raw nugget. Yeah,

1082
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 4: and then they give chickens could be pretty mean.

1083
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: Hey, Reese, featherspoon is a national treasure.

1084
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, raised featherspoon is. She is not a mean chicken.

1085
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,240
Speaker 4: She was just sitting on my lap earlier before we recorded.

1086
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 4: She sees a friendly chicken. She does. So if there

1087
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,359
Speaker 4: is blood on me, she will attack even me her

1088
00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 4: father and friend. So if you don't have any manure,

1089
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:20,760
Speaker 4: that's fine.

1090
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 5: You can make your own dirt at home. I recommend it.

1091
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:23,479
Speaker 1: It's great.

1092
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, you can. It's very fulfilling to take like waste

1093
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 4: and turn it into something useful. You can do it

1094
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 4: on a city scale like Portland does, or you can

1095
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 4: do it on a home scale, which is fun and

1096
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 4: it's always nice to you know, reduce your amount of

1097
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 4: shit there, especially if they don't compost, Like if you

1098
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 4: don't have a green bin. It's less shit going into landfa,

1099
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 4: isn't it. So that's always a good thing. So now

1100
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 4: you've you've got your vessel and you've got your soil,

1101
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 4: and you're going to have to decide about your plants. Right.

1102
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,799
Speaker 4: One great resource to consult it's a USDA Plant Hardiness matter.

1103
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 4: Have you guys been browsy.

1104
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:55,919
Speaker 5: Know your zone?

1105
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:57,439
Speaker 4: Baby m yep?

1106
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: You have to or else you could just be committing

1107
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 1: plant masker.

1108
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 5: I mean there's a lot of debate right now in

1109
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 5: the in the community about the rezoning, the rezone, the

1110
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 5: USDA Plant Hardiness Map. Yeah, Like my mom buys all

1111
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 5: of her bulbs from this bulb farm and they put

1112
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 5: out a notice saying like, we are not using the

1113
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 5: revised map or we're sticking the original, We're not changing

1114
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 5: the catalog.

1115
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:20,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, being a trad but for the USDA.

1116
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 5: Plant return to tradition.

1117
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:29,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm a USDA Plant hardness believer. And the climate

1118
00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 4: is changing, so the ship that your grandparents grow might

1119
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 4: not work for you if you have colder winters, especially

1120
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 4: right if the winter's getting colder where you are, that

1121
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,319
Speaker 4: might be difficult for your plants. Yeah, so consult that map.

1122
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 4: The map isn't going to tell you what to grow

1123
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 4: so much as what can make it through your winters,

1124
00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:47,840
Speaker 4: and so it's a good place to start. You're also

1125
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 4: going to want to think about plants that you can

1126
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:53,919
Speaker 4: fit into your space. Right. If you want to grow

1127
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 4: yourself as sequoia, that's cool, but you know, if you're

1128
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 4: operating with a balcony, it's probably not going to be

1129
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 4: Maybe you can make a bond size coir that that

1130
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 4: was your thing, but you needed to plant that will

1131
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 4: fit with your space, right, definitely, If you want to

1132
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,279
Speaker 4: grow plants that you want to eat, think about things

1133
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 4: that are high yielding, right, and perpetual spinach is a

1134
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 4: great one. If you're like a first timer. Perpetual spinach

1135
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 4: you can cut and come again, so you pick some

1136
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 4: and a bit more cums and bit more cums. You

1137
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 4: don't have to like harvest it all at one time.

1138
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 4: Tomatoes are a classic, right. You can even grow them

1139
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,760
Speaker 4: straight in one of those grow bags. Just cut a hole,

1140
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 4: put tomatoes in. If you've got enough depth, you can

1141
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:34,320
Speaker 4: do root vegetables, so things like carrots, turnip, swedes, you

1142
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 4: can get of course potatoes or a classic you can

1143
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,879
Speaker 4: make a potato tower if you wanted to. A great

1144
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 4: way to have lots of potatoes in a relatively small space.

1145
00:56:43,320 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 4: So choose something that will also grow depending on the

1146
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 4: amount of climate window you have. Right, So, if you

1147
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:51,880
Speaker 4: have short summers and you have something that needs a

1148
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 4: lot of sunlight to grow, you want something that will

1149
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,239
Speaker 4: grow and mature in the amount of time you have

1150
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 4: right before the weather turns to shit again and it's

1151
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 4: too cold for that plant. Something that's suitable for the

1152
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 4: climate you have. Like I just harvested some winter giant

1153
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 4: spinach because I agree that of the winter and it's

1154
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 4: very hardy and doesn't need quite as much sunlight. That

1155
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 4: was very good. And I'm about to start having my

1156
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 4: early girl tomatoes, which they arrive earlier than you're conventional tomato.

1157
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 4: Like there's a tomato for everything, wherever you are, whatever

1158
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 4: you need, Like, that's a tomato for you.

1159
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 5: It's overwhelming. So like last year, like I said, I'm

1160
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 5: doing this five space, right, So I went to the

1161
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 5: garden store and I just picked out a couple of

1162
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 5: tomato plants that had names like that were funny.

1163
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 4: I think that's a great strategy.

1164
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 5: Right, that's very valid. But this year I was a

1165
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,840
Speaker 5: little more selective. Right, So I grew fewer tomatoes this

1166
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 5: year because I think last they were a little too

1167
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 5: close together. It was a little overwhelming, a little busy

1168
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,760
Speaker 5: in there. I want to do more cucumbers this year,

1169
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,640
Speaker 5: so I only have five tomato plants. I have two

1170
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 5: different cherry tomatoes, have a Cherokee purple. Oh gosh, who

1171
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 5: are the other guys? The other ones were just names

1172
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 5: I thought were interesting. I did it again. But the

1173
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:57,959
Speaker 5: great thing about tomatoes is on the little tag it'll

1174
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 5: say how many days to maturity? Yes, so like you

1175
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 5: don't have to guess, you don't have to do a

1176
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 5: lot of homeworker research. It'll stay right on the tag,

1177
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 5: like eighty five days to harvest.

1178
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:09,560
Speaker 4: Yeah. Going to the garden entry, they're going to sell

1179
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 4: stuff that's suitable for the climate you're living in, right,

1180
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 4: and then yeah, you can see how long it will

1181
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 4: take to harvest. Ideally you could space them out, right,

1182
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 4: so you don't just have a g lot of tomatoes

1183
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 4: and then no tomatoes for the rest of your life

1184
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 4: or the rest.

1185
00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 5: Of the year producing, especially if you get indeterminates.

1186
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, they will keep producing, you can, uh.

1187
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 5: I mean they'll keep producing till the first frost. Yeah,

1188
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 5: so we had cherry tomatoes through November last year.

1189
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 4: Awesome. Wow, I thought you guys got cold.

1190
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 5: We're seven b But Charlotte s Fel's kind of in

1191
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 5: a valley, so it stays warmer a little longer.

1192
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 4: Nice. Yeah, it's San Diego is of course, you can

1193
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 4: almost have this stuff yet.

1194
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 5: Around eternal summer.

1195
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 4: Well, we have winters now. The last two winters have

1196
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 4: been very wet.

1197
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I had to have a bit of a learning

1198
00:58:50,240 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: curve coming from California to Oregon within the different climates.

1199
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 1: And I have to say that with the things that

1200
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: I had in parts, bringing them inside with girl bulbs

1201
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 1: has been or older weather has been pretty successful for

1202
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,920
Speaker 1: me at keeping things alive. Yeah, they're not as fruitful obviously,

1203
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 1: but they do not die.

1204
00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a wind. If you're in Portland or somewhere

1205
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 4: feather North and like you know that your plant won't

1206
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 4: make it through the winter, that's a strategy, right. You

1207
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 4: can have a place set aside, you bring it in.

1208
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 4: You can have a grow bolb.

1209
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 1: And honestly a lot of lamps. They sell bulbs that

1210
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 1: are grow bulbs that can go directly in the lamps

1211
00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 1: you already have, so you don't need to buy anything fancy.

1212
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:29,000
Speaker 1: The bulbs are pretty expensive and they're sold at most

1213
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: local hardware stores, so you're really spending like five dollars

1214
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 1: on a bowlb instead of spending you know, thirty dollars

1215
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 1: on some fancy contraption.

1216
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:37,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1217
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, my mom has a shoplight. You know, this is

1218
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 5: like a metal lamp seah clip, It's just a cheap

1219
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 5: shoplight that she clips onto a shelf to shine at

1220
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 5: her plants. Her version of oh.

1221
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, that guy, Sofie's demonstrating audio listeners.

1222
00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 5: Her empty nesting has involved a whole grow situation like

1223
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 5: there's no dining room at my parents' house anymore. There's

1224
00:59:57,560 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 5: nowhere for us to eat when we go home to

1225
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 5: the dining is a greenhouse. I love like tropical plants

1226
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 5: that have to live inside in the winter. She's got

1227
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 5: like a bougainvilla that's like ten feet tall that comes

1228
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 5: in the house in the winter.

1229
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:10,760
Speaker 4: Amazing.

1230
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 1: I just bought some bougain via that I have in

1231
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: a pot right now, because I grew up with bougainvia

1232
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 1: in California, and I finally found a nursery that had

1233
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 1: it in an Oregon and I was like home.

1234
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:24,600
Speaker 5: I always thought it was a potted plant until I

1235
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 5: saw it outside in a tropical environment.

1236
01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:28,480
Speaker 3: It's not a potted plant, not a part of.

1237
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 4: It, not in San Diego. It is a plant that

1238
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 4: will take over your guarden.

1239
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 1: Sorry, James, we've gone off the rails. Back to what

1240
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: you're saying.

1241
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 4: It's okay, yeah, returning to the rails. I did want

1242
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 4: to plug native seed search. I love native seed search

1243
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:46,160
Speaker 4: for finding different and exciting seeds and preserving indigenous people's

1244
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 4: horticultural traditions and like lifeways. I have grown lots of

1245
01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:53,240
Speaker 4: seeds from native seed search with great success. And it's

1246
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:57,480
Speaker 4: cool in a world of increasingly like monocultural agriculture to

1247
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 4: preserve something that is part of one's culture. Zapatistas will

1248
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 4: also send you corn. I'm sure anyone on the left

1249
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 4: who's over thirty years old is very familiar with zapatis

1250
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:09,880
Speaker 4: to corn, I'm sure. But for the youth among us,

1251
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:13,439
Speaker 4: you can order corn from the zapatistas that actually comes

1252
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 4: from somebody in San Diego who will send you some

1253
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,440
Speaker 4: of this sort of heritage variety corn. And you're preserving

1254
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 4: this corn in a world where corn is increasingly commercialized. Right,

1255
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:27,720
Speaker 4: things like Monsanto have a lockdown on some of these

1256
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 4: corn varieties. Right, they're like patented varieties. Right, even if

1257
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 4: you don't sew them, they're sort of invading the genome

1258
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 4: of these indigenous corn types. So keeping these varieties alive

1259
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 4: is a cool thing to do. I used to do

1260
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 4: this when I was like sixteen. This is like early activism.

1261
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 4: Me was like growing some zappetis to corn in my parents' greenhouse.

1262
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:47,640
Speaker 4: But that's the thing you can do if you want

1263
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 4: cool corn.

1264
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 5: I think it's important too to look up what's native

1265
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 5: to your area, and not just because it is you know,

1266
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 5: the right thing to do, but it'll grow better where

1267
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 5: you live. The pollinators will be attracted to it where

1268
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 5: you live. I was just looking up like here in Virginia,

1269
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 5: the Department of Wildlife Resources will sell you native seeds

1270
01:02:04,960 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 5: for your area at a pretty good affordable rice. So like,

1271
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 5: look up what wants to live where you are growing it. Yeah,

1272
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 5: totally a lot of things, like ornamental garden plants are

1273
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:19,560
Speaker 5: highly invasive and destructive to your local habitat. So things

1274
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 5: that might look really nice in your yard are destructive

1275
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 5: to your environment.

1276
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a big thing where it's probably a big

1277
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 4: thing everywhere, but like in California, and we talk about

1278
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 4: like invasive mustard. Right when you see these big yellow

1279
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 4: hillsides in California, that's an invasive plant. Of course, there's

1280
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:37,160
Speaker 4: the climate changes. What is indigenous to one area may

1281
01:02:37,200 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 4: no longer be suitable for growing there, And that's definitely

1282
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:43,080
Speaker 4: happened with some plants. I'd get a lot of plants

1283
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 4: as well from Desert Survivors, which is a little nursery

1284
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 4: in Tucson, Arizona, where I like to go and buy

1285
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 4: desert plants because I do not like to have plants

1286
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:55,760
Speaker 4: that are extremely thirsty for water. This is my transition

1287
01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:59,760
Speaker 4: to our watering segment. You need to water your plants.

1288
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 4: This is something that people probably know that some tips

1289
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 4: for watering. You want to water your plants regularly and consistently.

1290
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:11,720
Speaker 4: Plants can get stressed if you have a lot of water,

1291
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 4: then no water, then a lot of water. Again. If

1292
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 4: you're using a vibe space watering strategy, you might be

1293
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 4: causing your plant excessive stress. So I like to water

1294
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 4: my plants morning or evening because in the heat of

1295
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:26,760
Speaker 4: the day you're going to lose more to evaporation. If

1296
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 4: you're really going for it, you can set up a

1297
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 4: drip feeder, which is a pretty cool system where the

1298
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 4: lots of little lines and they just drip water onto

1299
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 4: your plants. Those are a really great way to irrigate.

1300
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 4: You can also do what I often do, which is

1301
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 4: drink a lot and then use your plants as an

1302
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 4: excuse for doing that. By taking the little glass bottles

1303
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 4: and making plant waters out of them as you fill

1304
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 4: them up and then basically shove them in the ground

1305
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:52,920
Speaker 4: as long as you can get a good plug of

1306
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 4: soil in the end of the bottle.

1307
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 5: And misunderstood where you were going with that. I thought

1308
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 5: you were pissing on your vegetables.

1309
01:03:58,240 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 4: Nope.

1310
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 5: So I've heard of putting urine in your compost tumbler,

1311
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 5: something about the urea and the nitrogen. But I don't

1312
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:07,360
Speaker 5: think you're suposed to piss right on the tomatoes.

1313
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 4: No.

1314
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:12,720
Speaker 1: I was trying to understand what Molly's the gig face

1315
01:04:12,920 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 1: was really.

1316
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, Money's baffled by this bottle idea.

1317
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 5: I don't pee on my garden. Yeah, I mean it's

1318
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 5: sort of street facing. I think it would be sort

1319
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:22,480
Speaker 5: of loud and lascivius.

1320
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 1: For the record, Yeah, Molly does not pee on her garden.

1321
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 4: I want everyone to know that Money's not a guden per.

1322
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 3: No.

1323
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 5: But watering is a big issue for me, right, So,

1324
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 5: because it's not supposed to be a garden there there's.

1325
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 4: No hose as a water source.

1326
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 5: There's no external like spigott for me to hook up

1327
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:41,320
Speaker 5: a hose too. There's so I have to use a

1328
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:44,320
Speaker 5: two gallon watering can that I fill in my bathtub

1329
01:04:44,360 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 5: and then take out one at a time, and so

1330
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 5: you know you're supposed to, like the equivalent of one

1331
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 5: inch of water per week is about average for a

1332
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:56,040
Speaker 5: little vegetable garden, which is like zero point six gallons

1333
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 5: per square foot. So for my ten foot by ten foot,

1334
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:01,000
Speaker 5: I'm looking at sixty gallons a week. So every other

1335
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:03,760
Speaker 5: day fill up my watering can you know, ten or

1336
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 5: twenty times. It's an endeavor, good work, It's an endeavor.

1337
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a commitment to the plants. You could like

1338
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 4: do a hose and run out your window from the tap.

1339
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 5: I looked into it. So for people who live in

1340
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 5: apartments and have a lot of house plants, there's like

1341
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 5: an adapter you can get for your kitchen sink that

1342
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 5: you can screw a hose onto. But I do not

1343
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 5: have the right kind of faucet for that.

1344
01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:27,200
Speaker 4: Disappointing. I bet someone listening has a solution for Molly's plants.

1345
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 1: But first it's time for advertisements.

1346
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:33,240
Speaker 5: I hope it's an advertisement for pissing outside.

1347
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 4: That would be great. I would read the advert for

1348
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 4: pissing outside.

1349
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:39,160
Speaker 1: I just feel like that's what we're missing the.

1350
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 5: World is a toilet.

1351
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 4: Surely like Jocko or someone has done a like pissing outside,

1352
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 4: Jordan Peterson that they've done sunning your balls, they must

1353
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 4: have done pissing outside.

1354
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 5: So if you ask the people that make the shi

1355
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 5: Wi a failed sponsor the.

1356
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 1: Show, sure.

1357
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:02,800
Speaker 4: We are back and we are now going to talk

1358
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 4: about and your versus perennial plants, a topic play know

1359
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:08,440
Speaker 4: many of you have been wondering about. Would one of

1360
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:10,400
Speaker 4: you like to explain? I'm sure you're familiar with annuals

1361
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:12,120
Speaker 4: and perennials, which one of you like to take on

1362
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:13,720
Speaker 4: the task of explaining them to our listeners?

1363
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 5: Sophie, what annuals just live for the one growing season.

1364
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:23,440
Speaker 5: Perennials will come back next year, is the short of it.

1365
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 1: I definitely could have answered that, Well.

1366
01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:26,760
Speaker 4: You didn't, did you, Surpi?

1367
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 5: So your tomatoes are annuals. Allegedly my halapenna is supposed

1368
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 5: to be a perennial. She did not make it rip.

1369
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 4: We've had a couple of peppers over winter. I have

1370
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 4: a thie bird chili that made it from a couple

1371
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 4: of winters. Now, it'll depend a little bit on where

1372
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 4: you are as well, if they'll make it through the w.

1373
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 5: And I think I should have pruned it back earlier

1374
01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 5: before the frost. I think they winter better if you

1375
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:49,560
Speaker 5: prune them back. It was parted. I could have sunk

1376
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:51,680
Speaker 5: the pot in the soil so the soil temperature would

1377
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 5: remain more constant, but I didn't do that. I about

1378
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:54,600
Speaker 5: a new one.

1379
01:06:55,440 --> 01:06:56,120
Speaker 1: I respect that.

1380
01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 4: So some other things to consider. I'm going three things

1381
01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 4: that you might need to add as your guide growth

1382
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:05,760
Speaker 4: would be like frames for plants that creep or plants

1383
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 4: that climb. Some tomatoes will need a frame. For Molly's cucumbers,

1384
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:11,160
Speaker 4: you're going to need a frame.

1385
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 5: Oh, I got a little a frame for my cukees

1386
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 5: this year. But I hate tomato cages. Those you've seen them,

1387
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 5: the round little at the bottom when they get there,

1388
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 5: the horrible round wire cages. They're ugly, they're hard to store.

1389
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:25,360
Speaker 5: They live in an apartment. What I'm going to do

1390
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 5: with that the other eight months out of the year.

1391
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:29,520
Speaker 5: So what I did last year is a technique called

1392
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:33,840
Speaker 5: Florida weave, where you use posts and twine and you

1393
01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 5: sort of so you have the posts along the row

1394
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 5: and then you between the posts you weave the twine

1395
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:42,439
Speaker 5: on either side of the plants, and it worked really

1396
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:45,440
Speaker 5: well until my tomatoes became ten feet tall because I

1397
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:47,960
Speaker 5: bought five foot posts. But it was good in theory.

1398
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:50,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's how commercial tomatoes are grown.

1399
01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 5: It was much more affordable than buying like something large,

1400
01:07:54,120 --> 01:07:56,680
Speaker 5: because I just went to tractor supply and bought Actually,

1401
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 5: the steaks I bought are for putting up electric fences,

1402
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 5: so they have clips every few inches along the post

1403
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:06,520
Speaker 5: for so convenient to clip the wire into. So I

1404
01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 5: used that to hold onto the twine and they were

1405
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 5: like a buck fifty apiece. So it's a much more

1406
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 5: affordable and more storage friendly. So Florida weave them great idea.

1407
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:18,880
Speaker 4: Love that, Yeah, I love that. Someone gave me a

1408
01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:21,600
Speaker 4: load of bamboo and I just made frames out of

1409
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 4: that and just it's fun to do a little a

1410
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 4: frame hitch and make little frame and then you can

1411
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:29,960
Speaker 4: just collapse it right because the a frame hitch, it

1412
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 4: relies on the spreading of the bottom to give it attention.

1413
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 4: So you just you bring them together again and you

1414
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 4: can store it over the winter.

1415
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, So there are a lot of solutions out there

1416
01:08:37,080 --> 01:08:40,760
Speaker 5: that don't involve buying a fifty dollars contraption. It blows

1417
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 5: you know, like, don't feel like you have to invest

1418
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,320
Speaker 5: a lot of money in like objects and gadgets and things.

1419
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:48,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think generally, Actually, there's a lot of shit

1420
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:50,720
Speaker 4: that's marketed at trying to get your plants to grow,

1421
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:53,920
Speaker 4: and like, the chances are if your plants you're having

1422
01:08:54,320 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 4: not as much success as you would hope. They're not

1423
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 4: getting enough light, they're not getting enough water, or they're

1424
01:08:58,439 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 4: not getting enough nutrients, or too cold or too hot

1425
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:01,599
Speaker 4: for them.

1426
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:02,799
Speaker 5: You don't need a big gadget.

1427
01:09:03,400 --> 01:09:05,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, you don't need to buy a thing. And it

1428
01:09:05,960 --> 01:09:07,560
Speaker 4: is one of those areas where you can find for

1429
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 4: useful information on the internet. So if you're struggling with

1430
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:13,200
Speaker 4: a certain plant, there is almost certainly someone who's already

1431
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:16,880
Speaker 4: had that struggle and you can find their solutions. There

1432
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:19,439
Speaker 4: are some pretty good websites for searching up that stuff.

1433
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:23,240
Speaker 4: The last thing I wanted to cover was pruning and

1434
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 4: weeding and pest management, which can be a bit of

1435
01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 4: a mission. Right now, I'm fighting a uphill struggle against

1436
01:09:32,080 --> 01:09:35,559
Speaker 4: some gophers. They have targeted me. You have to shoot

1437
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 4: this is a problem. I live in a relatively built

1438
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:43,560
Speaker 4: up area, I am a person who grew up in agriculture.

1439
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 4: I know how to manage pests. But unfortunately all the

1440
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:51,680
Speaker 4: things that I would have done are felony crime.

1441
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,280
Speaker 5: Big government is interfering with your urban farm.

1442
01:09:55,240 --> 01:09:57,519
Speaker 4: Once again, the boot of the man is on my neck.

1443
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:00,479
Speaker 5: I am at war with the squirrels here. That's weird.

1444
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 5: They didn't mess with me last year, I guess because

1445
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:03,880
Speaker 5: you know, we had just moved in and they saw

1446
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:05,720
Speaker 5: the dogs and they were concerned about the dogs. But

1447
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:09,519
Speaker 5: this year they're feeling bold and they are digging holes.

1448
01:10:09,760 --> 01:10:13,479
Speaker 5: Every day. They're digging holes. They are burying peanuts in

1449
01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 5: my garden, and I keep pulling peanuts out of the.

1450
01:10:16,160 --> 01:10:17,639
Speaker 2: I have a fucking peanut problem too.

1451
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:20,560
Speaker 5: I'm not Jimmy Carter. I'm not farming peanuts.

1452
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:22,480
Speaker 1: They're not afraid of Buccanatto.

1453
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:24,840
Speaker 5: I guess because last year they didn't get got so

1454
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:25,960
Speaker 5: this year they're feeling.

1455
01:10:25,680 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 1: Like Henderson keeps the squirrels at bay. They know their

1456
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:30,240
Speaker 1: place and that it is her yard.

1457
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 4: A buccanotto on patrol though. Are they able to access

1458
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:33,760
Speaker 4: the pit?

1459
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:37,479
Speaker 5: No, the pit is like not accessible to dog, but

1460
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:40,080
Speaker 5: like sometimes you know, they're out on the patio barking.

1461
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 5: But the solution that I have found because apparently I'm

1462
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:46,799
Speaker 5: not allowed to shoot them a cayenne pepper.

1463
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 1: Yes, cayenne pepper is a great solution.

1464
01:10:49,960 --> 01:10:52,799
Speaker 5: I bought like several pounds of cayenne pepper in bulk,

1465
01:10:53,080 --> 01:10:55,840
Speaker 5: and I just sprinkle it on all of the surfaces,

1466
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:58,160
Speaker 5: like on the surface of the soil along the wall

1467
01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 5: around the pit because they don't want to like walk

1468
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:02,559
Speaker 5: in it and smell it, So it keeps them off

1469
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:04,640
Speaker 5: the wall so they don't end up down in the

1470
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 5: pit to dig.

1471
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:07,960
Speaker 1: I do the same. You get some that some chili oil,

1472
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 1: a little bit of water, you put a spray bottle,

1473
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:12,000
Speaker 1: and he just keeps a lot of bugs away as well.

1474
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:13,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, mace your plants.

1475
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:17,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, Unfortunately I don't sprinkle into the wind.

1476
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:25,800
Speaker 4: Oh no, Yeah, I've done the same thing. Money. I've

1477
01:11:25,840 --> 01:11:27,160
Speaker 4: maced myself trying to do that.

1478
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 5: As my strawberry start to ripe and I'm thinking, like

1479
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:31,760
Speaker 5: maybe I should stop macing the strawberries.

1480
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:35,240
Speaker 4: No, just grow mace strawberries. Then you'll be immune. If

1481
01:11:35,240 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 4: you ate enough of them, you could become like the Hulk.

1482
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:39,400
Speaker 4: You know, they spray you and you just get strong.

1483
01:11:39,560 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm doing mithrittism with police brutality.

1484
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that for you, like the guy who

1485
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:46,639
Speaker 4: lets his snakes bite him a little bit all the time,

1486
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:49,479
Speaker 4: and yeah, but for cops, I love that. There are

1487
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:52,080
Speaker 4: lots of solutions to this which don't evolve like spraying

1488
01:11:52,120 --> 01:11:54,240
Speaker 4: your plants with a butt kind of round up or

1489
01:11:54,479 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 4: round up will probably kill them. But other pesticides, right,

1490
01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:59,760
Speaker 4: like don't splay your plants is round up might kill

1491
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:02,759
Speaker 4: you as well. But yeah, you have to first ascertain

1492
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:05,360
Speaker 4: what pest you're dealing with, right, So for the gophers,

1493
01:12:05,360 --> 01:12:07,160
Speaker 4: one of the things you can do is, you know

1494
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:09,920
Speaker 4: construction netting. It's like chicken wire bit thinner. Yeah, you

1495
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:11,960
Speaker 4: can put that because the roots of the plant can

1496
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 4: still get through that. So you put that at the

1497
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:16,639
Speaker 4: bottom of your planter, right where it sits on the soil.

1498
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:18,120
Speaker 4: The roots of the plant can still get through, but

1499
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:22,479
Speaker 4: mister gopher cannot missus gopher, non binary gopher can't get

1500
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:25,439
Speaker 4: through their netting, just like a physical block. I've heard

1501
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:28,000
Speaker 4: people say that cat litter is something you can sprinkle

1502
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 4: and they think are cats around. You can also just

1503
01:12:31,400 --> 01:12:34,200
Speaker 4: make a little house for a cat that doesn't have one,

1504
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:37,360
Speaker 4: so that it comes and lives near your plants. We

1505
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:40,400
Speaker 4: had that for a while. The little neighborhood cat came

1506
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 4: in to stay and it kept the rat problem to

1507
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 4: a minimum. You can use things like have you seen

1508
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 4: the ultrasound gopher preventors.

1509
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:52,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can't use one of those because they think

1510
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:54,880
Speaker 5: it would bother the dogs, right like you would bother

1511
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:56,160
Speaker 5: other small mammals.

1512
01:12:56,400 --> 01:12:59,240
Speaker 4: I have one that I got on Jeffrey Bezos his

1513
01:12:59,320 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 4: website that are not in fact ultrasound. They're very much

1514
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:04,760
Speaker 4: just regular sound, and I think Alas missold those, so

1515
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:07,120
Speaker 4: they're worth trying. They are all sort of non lethal

1516
01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:08,120
Speaker 4: methods as well.

1517
01:13:08,280 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 5: You can get a plastic owl, yes.

1518
01:13:10,400 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 4: You can't if you've got a bird problem. You can

1519
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 4: also get bird netting if they're eating your berries, And

1520
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:16,320
Speaker 4: I would suggest that you can get a variety of

1521
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 4: plastic animals.

1522
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,519
Speaker 5: Actually, my mom has a coy pond, and so she

1523
01:13:20,600 --> 01:13:23,800
Speaker 5: got a plastic heron to scare away the real heron

1524
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:27,799
Speaker 5: that eats the fish. And my dad misunderstood the purpose

1525
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:30,280
Speaker 5: of the heron, right, it was a functional plastic bird.

1526
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:31,800
Speaker 5: It was to scare away the real bird that eats

1527
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 5: the fish. And so he thought like oh, like we

1528
01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:37,439
Speaker 5: like fake birds now, and so he very lovingly bond

1529
01:13:37,560 --> 01:13:40,559
Speaker 5: a bunch of like different fake plastic birds for the yard.

1530
01:13:41,080 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 1: Oh that's so endearing.

1531
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:45,360
Speaker 4: Yeah it's adorable, but it.

1532
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 5: Does not keep the heron away. Yeah, he's eating the fish.

1533
01:13:49,280 --> 01:13:51,920
Speaker 4: Maybe need a more intimidating plastic heron. Keep buying until

1534
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:52,400
Speaker 4: you find.

1535
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:53,759
Speaker 5: The one, you know, a really buff one.

1536
01:13:54,040 --> 01:13:56,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, buff one that's giving the middle finger because

1537
01:13:56,840 --> 01:14:01,639
Speaker 4: birds do that. H charns do that and they're buff

1538
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:02,000
Speaker 4: like that.

1539
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:06,400
Speaker 1: What other pest management things do we recommend? Oh?

1540
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:09,679
Speaker 5: I love knee oil for thrips and.

1541
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:11,240
Speaker 1: Aphids, sneem oil rules.

1542
01:14:11,720 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 5: I don't put any poison on my plants because I'm

1543
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:17,040
Speaker 5: I'm against it. But I have a spray bottle that

1544
01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:18,400
Speaker 5: I put a little bit of knee oil and a

1545
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:20,920
Speaker 5: little bit of down dish soap in and then mostly

1546
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:23,160
Speaker 5: just hot water. After that, shake that bad way up

1547
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:24,040
Speaker 5: and spray them down.

1548
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:27,680
Speaker 4: Lady buds are a great one, Lady bugs for the

1549
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:28,759
Speaker 4: Americans in the audience.

1550
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:30,720
Speaker 5: The only thing I use like is is like, it's

1551
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:33,960
Speaker 5: not really a poison, it's a bacteria. I don't know,

1552
01:14:34,120 --> 01:14:39,479
Speaker 5: debatable buy these bacillisitringiensis. I use that to keep the

1553
01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:40,559
Speaker 5: caterpillars away.

1554
01:14:40,840 --> 01:14:42,840
Speaker 1: There's also like a lot of different plants you can

1555
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:45,280
Speaker 1: plant with your crops to help keep pests at bay,

1556
01:14:45,320 --> 01:14:48,120
Speaker 1: you know, thinking like you know a lot of herbs

1557
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 1: which you would want to grow anyways, like mint and

1558
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:57,920
Speaker 1: rosemary and lavender and cat nip, and then also Merrygold's

1559
01:14:58,040 --> 01:15:02,720
Speaker 1: always good lemon gras as to Trunella grass.

1560
01:15:02,800 --> 01:15:06,080
Speaker 5: A coplant marigolden basil with my tomatoes.

1561
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:10,000
Speaker 4: It looks nice. Also, I wanted to mention pruning. Yes,

1562
01:15:10,120 --> 01:15:13,280
Speaker 4: you do want to be pruning your plants with tomatoes.

1563
01:15:13,320 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 4: You want to pull off the suckers, right If you

1564
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:18,479
Speaker 4: imagine your tomato is like a V, and then a

1565
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:20,519
Speaker 4: third sprout coming up from the middle of the V.

1566
01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:23,680
Speaker 5: Because you should see what Jess is doing with his

1567
01:15:23,760 --> 01:15:24,639
Speaker 5: hands right now.

1568
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:28,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, for the several thousand people who are not in

1569
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:31,080
Speaker 4: the room, making a V with my hand and then

1570
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:34,559
Speaker 4: an extra finger in the middle of the V. I

1571
01:15:34,600 --> 01:15:36,960
Speaker 4: can't do this without making myself laugh now.

1572
01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:39,439
Speaker 5: My, but yeah, pull off the suckers.

1573
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 4: You're generally gonna want to prune your plants, right, This

1574
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:44,679
Speaker 4: will encourage them to fruit instead of just growing.

1575
01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:48,160
Speaker 5: Yes, especially with your herbs. You want to top your

1576
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:51,639
Speaker 5: herbs because once they go to seed, they stop growing.

1577
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:53,719
Speaker 4: Yeah. Oh they taste like ass.

1578
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:58,080
Speaker 1: Cut your rosemary often.

1579
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:01,160
Speaker 4: Give it a trim. People get really scared about pruning

1580
01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:03,519
Speaker 4: or pollidding. If you've got a tree, you poll add it.

1581
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:06,240
Speaker 4: But it's really not that scary. Again, like depending on

1582
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 4: your plant, you'll find some good videos on YouTube.

1583
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:08,639
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1584
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:12,080
Speaker 4: The last thing I wanted to talk about is rotating

1585
01:16:12,200 --> 01:16:14,760
Speaker 4: your crops. Oh yeah, did you learn about this in

1586
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:17,639
Speaker 4: school that we did or is this just a British.

1587
01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:19,200
Speaker 5: They cheat you guys about crop rotation.

1588
01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:22,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was not in any of my classes.

1589
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:24,960
Speaker 4: Really, you didn't have a three field system.

1590
01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 1: No, I learned that from like some nice YouTuber.

1591
01:16:28,400 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 4: Okay, well there's a niche for you there of your

1592
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:33,360
Speaker 4: British person teach American people shit, they should have learned

1593
01:16:33,360 --> 01:16:33,719
Speaker 4: in school.

1594
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:36,120
Speaker 1: On YouTube, it's going to take a long time. That's

1595
01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:37,000
Speaker 1: a long program.

1596
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:41,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're overestimating our education system. So you can rotate

1597
01:16:41,960 --> 01:16:43,439
Speaker 4: your crops. So if you're growing the same thing in

1598
01:16:43,479 --> 01:16:44,960
Speaker 4: the same soil every year, it's going to pull the

1599
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:47,840
Speaker 4: same stuff out every year, right, unless you're replenishing your soil,

1600
01:16:47,880 --> 01:16:49,839
Speaker 4: which you want to do if you've got your annual

1601
01:16:49,880 --> 01:16:52,880
Speaker 4: plants right, you do want to errate your soil. Turn

1602
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:56,040
Speaker 4: it over. You can get a soil aarator's controversial. You

1603
01:16:56,040 --> 01:16:57,760
Speaker 4: don't believe in soil aeration.

1604
01:16:57,640 --> 01:16:58,600
Speaker 5: It's controversial.

1605
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:01,800
Speaker 4: My belief is you should augment and erate your soil,

1606
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:06,240
Speaker 4: or you can rotate your crops right, which what you're

1607
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:08,280
Speaker 4: doing there is not growing the same thing every year.

1608
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:10,400
Speaker 4: And crucially, what you want to include in a corp

1609
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:13,639
Speaker 4: rotation is a nitrogen fixing plant, which is to say,

1610
01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:14,759
Speaker 4: a laguminous plant.

1611
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:17,479
Speaker 5: The squirrels are actually trying to help me by planting

1612
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:18,600
Speaker 5: those peanuts.

1613
01:17:18,920 --> 01:17:20,640
Speaker 4: Yes, I guess peanuts are in l Agome. I'd never

1614
01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:23,639
Speaker 4: thought that from a country where peanuts wouldn't grow.

1615
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:26,280
Speaker 5: I guess I should apologize to the squirrels.

1616
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:29,320
Speaker 4: Yep, little farming squirrels. I like to do peas. They're

1617
01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:33,479
Speaker 4: a lagome. A lentil. Everyone loves a lentil. It's kind

1618
01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:37,519
Speaker 4: of fun to grow a little lentil, do you yes,

1619
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:39,600
Speaker 4: I remember you said it's on Twitter. This is incredible

1620
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:39,840
Speaker 4: to me.

1621
01:17:40,040 --> 01:17:43,679
Speaker 5: It's because biding into a lentil, the way that surface

1622
01:17:43,720 --> 01:17:46,879
Speaker 5: tension breaks when you bite it. To me, is exactly

1623
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:49,000
Speaker 5: how I imagine it would feel to bite into an

1624
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:50,080
Speaker 5: engorged tick.

1625
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:52,800
Speaker 4: Just reading about someone who bit a tick.

1626
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 1: I just decided I am anti lentil, just based on that.

1627
01:17:58,080 --> 01:18:02,000
Speaker 4: We can't allow money to ruin lentil. Lentils are your friend.

1628
01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:04,360
Speaker 5: I know they're great. They are a great source of

1629
01:18:04,439 --> 01:18:06,560
Speaker 5: non meat protein, but I can't do it.

1630
01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:09,080
Speaker 1: Apparently, I no longer can do it.

1631
01:18:09,160 --> 01:18:12,040
Speaker 4: Either cook them enough and there's not the surface engine,

1632
01:18:12,160 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 4: or get split once you know the red lentils that

1633
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:16,120
Speaker 4: are split, and then you won't have the tension.

1634
01:18:16,120 --> 01:18:16,800
Speaker 5: I can do that.

1635
01:18:16,880 --> 01:18:20,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, okay, we've agreed on I'm like fifty percent

1636
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:23,439
Speaker 4: lentil by mass if I didn't have lentils, so, I

1637
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:25,880
Speaker 4: don't know if I would make it, make a big

1638
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:28,479
Speaker 4: thing on lentils every single Sunday and then I eat

1639
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:29,599
Speaker 4: them most of the week.

1640
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 5: It never even occurred to me, like what does a

1641
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 5: lentil plant look like? Which part of the plant is

1642
01:18:33,840 --> 01:18:34,360
Speaker 5: the lentil?

1643
01:18:35,360 --> 01:18:37,160
Speaker 4: It's the seed. I think there's the lagume.

1644
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:40,240
Speaker 5: It's the that sounds labor intensive to harvest.

1645
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:43,320
Speaker 4: It's not too bad. It's kind of fun. Because lentils

1646
01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:45,040
Speaker 4: play such an important role in my life. I like

1647
01:18:45,160 --> 01:18:47,720
Speaker 4: to grow them. It's fixing a n ogen back. We

1648
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:50,600
Speaker 4: could put any laguminous plant right, it would fix a

1649
01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:52,759
Speaker 4: nitchen back in your soil. And if you rotate those

1650
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:55,920
Speaker 4: through and even leave your soil fallow for a while

1651
01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:58,519
Speaker 4: so they don't grow anything, right, if you have a

1652
01:18:58,560 --> 01:19:01,080
Speaker 4: space to do that, rotating your around, right, so you

1653
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:03,519
Speaker 4: have like a fallow and then something else and then

1654
01:19:03,720 --> 01:19:06,360
Speaker 4: the goom, and then you just rotate them around every year.

1655
01:19:06,840 --> 01:19:07,599
Speaker 5: I just have the pit.

1656
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:10,519
Speaker 4: You could segment off the pit. You could do pit

1657
01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:14,120
Speaker 4: quarters and you could rotate them around. You could have lentils,

1658
01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:17,639
Speaker 4: you could have tomatoes, basil and the little fallow patch

1659
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:19,120
Speaker 4: for the dogs to run around.

1660
01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 3: It.

1661
01:19:19,479 --> 01:19:22,679
Speaker 1: Just let you say tomatoes and basils entire time.

1662
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:26,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm so glad, thank you, Thank you for not

1663
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 4: making me feel feel bad.

1664
01:19:28,160 --> 01:19:31,040
Speaker 1: I was thinking it. I want you to know, but

1665
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:33,320
Speaker 1: I kept I held it in like a winner until

1666
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:34,200
Speaker 1: the very end.

1667
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:36,160
Speaker 4: So yeah, the very end.

1668
01:19:36,479 --> 01:19:37,799
Speaker 5: My grandmother says, tomato.

1669
01:19:39,320 --> 01:19:40,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. Good Americans do.

1670
01:19:41,120 --> 01:19:42,280
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1671
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:44,840
Speaker 4: Really, the ones that I've met, I feel like they're

1672
01:19:44,840 --> 01:19:47,599
Speaker 4: either doing it. Sometimes people will meet me and then

1673
01:19:47,640 --> 01:19:55,320
Speaker 4: start talking like me incredible, it's not at all. It's

1674
01:19:55,360 --> 01:19:59,200
Speaker 4: really weird when you notice someone changing their vowels. Yeah,

1675
01:19:59,200 --> 01:20:01,160
Speaker 4: it's very weird. I don't know if this happens to everyone,

1676
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:03,040
Speaker 4: and it's just a thing that happens to British people.

1677
01:20:03,520 --> 01:20:06,479
Speaker 4: So yeah, that's my message for you. Grow plants. Do

1678
01:20:06,600 --> 01:20:10,200
Speaker 4: not start speaking like me or anyone. Don't parrot people's

1679
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:13,400
Speaker 4: action to just talk to where you talk. It's it's fine, but.

1680
01:20:13,360 --> 01:20:15,600
Speaker 5: Just like, don't overthink it. Just put some plants in

1681
01:20:15,640 --> 01:20:17,519
Speaker 5: the dirt. Try it out. The worst that can happen.

1682
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:18,639
Speaker 5: It doesn't work, it's okay.

1683
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:21,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're not very exprected. I get seeds, grow them

1684
01:20:21,160 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 4: up from the seeds.

1685
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:24,720
Speaker 5: And never buy cut basil from the grocery store. You know,

1686
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:27,160
Speaker 5: you spend six dollars with that little plastic blister pack

1687
01:20:27,160 --> 01:20:29,680
Speaker 5: of leaves. Don't do it. It's cheaper to buy the

1688
01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:32,200
Speaker 5: whole plant and then you have unlimited basil.

1689
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:34,960
Speaker 1: Unless you're me who can't grow lest you're Sofia.

1690
01:20:35,160 --> 01:20:37,240
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, just Sophie, Please go ahead and buy

1691
01:20:37,280 --> 01:20:37,920
Speaker 4: cut basil.

1692
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:40,360
Speaker 1: No, I'll just steal some from my friends who know

1693
01:20:40,439 --> 01:20:41,240
Speaker 1: how to grow.

1694
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's another thing you can do. Steal.

1695
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:46,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's the other thing. Steal plants from your friends,

1696
01:20:46,520 --> 01:20:49,639
Speaker 1: bring your friends cuttings, share your plants with friends.

1697
01:20:50,080 --> 01:20:53,240
Speaker 5: I don't consider it stealing to snap off little cuttings

1698
01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:54,080
Speaker 5: or seed heads.

1699
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:55,280
Speaker 1: No, like I don't either.

1700
01:20:55,400 --> 01:20:57,760
Speaker 5: No. My fanny pack is full of like mysterious seed

1701
01:20:57,760 --> 01:20:59,680
Speaker 5: heads that I popped off of plants, and so I

1702
01:20:59,680 --> 01:21:02,120
Speaker 5: put in the dirt because I couldn't remember what they were.

1703
01:21:02,920 --> 01:21:04,719
Speaker 1: That's also like a really fun game.

1704
01:21:05,640 --> 01:21:08,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think these are cosmos. We'll find out.

1705
01:21:09,479 --> 01:21:11,800
Speaker 4: Get some seeds and trade them with your friends and

1706
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:14,519
Speaker 4: everyone gets a mystery plant. Be a fun thing to do.

1707
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:17,639
Speaker 5: And don't forget to grow a flower too. Yeah, grow

1708
01:21:17,640 --> 01:21:19,960
Speaker 5: a nice flower, attract some beans.

1709
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 4: Grow some pollinators. This is a weird little anecdote to

1710
01:21:23,479 --> 01:21:26,720
Speaker 4: end on. So beyond the company who make the protective

1711
01:21:26,720 --> 01:21:30,160
Speaker 4: combat uniform for the US military, they also make some

1712
01:21:30,160 --> 01:21:32,479
Speaker 4: really nice clothing that I buy for work stuff. Sometimes

1713
01:21:32,520 --> 01:21:34,559
Speaker 4: I get afraid of being on fire, so I like

1714
01:21:34,600 --> 01:21:38,639
Speaker 4: to buy fire retardant stuff. And they send a little

1715
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:40,960
Speaker 4: tag with all of their clothing. So you're buying your

1716
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:43,800
Speaker 4: like fire retardant base layer to or under your plate

1717
01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:45,599
Speaker 4: carrier when you're working and It comes with a little

1718
01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:48,439
Speaker 4: tag that has plant seeds in it, and if you

1719
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:50,559
Speaker 4: plant the tag, flowers will grow.

1720
01:21:51,080 --> 01:21:51,880
Speaker 5: That's beautiful.

1721
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:54,240
Speaker 4: It's wonderful, isn't it. Yeah, it's very nice. And for

1722
01:21:54,280 --> 01:21:58,400
Speaker 4: that reason line, they're my favorite purveyor of fireproof uniforms.

1723
01:21:59,080 --> 01:22:01,919
Speaker 5: Oh and get a sun hat. If you're outside gardening,

1724
01:22:02,160 --> 01:22:05,519
Speaker 5: get a big floppy sun hat. It really helps you

1725
01:22:05,560 --> 01:22:07,519
Speaker 5: get in the zone and it also protects you from

1726
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:07,960
Speaker 5: the sun.

1727
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:10,920
Speaker 4: It's a great tape. I think we shouldet end with that. Bye,

1728
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:11,599
Speaker 4: by a sun.

1729
01:22:11,400 --> 01:22:14,840
Speaker 1: Hat, by a sun hat, wear sunscreen and listen to

1730
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:17,679
Speaker 1: sixteenth minute of Fame, our newest Cloze media podcast hosted

1731
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:18,599
Speaker 1: by Jamie loftus.

1732
01:22:18,680 --> 01:22:19,280
Speaker 4: Ah.

1733
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:22,360
Speaker 5: Wow, so true, so true. Yeah, listen to it.

1734
01:22:22,479 --> 01:22:25,560
Speaker 1: Wow, gardening wearing a sun hat and sunscreen.

1735
01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:27,320
Speaker 5: I did that this morning.

1736
01:22:27,479 --> 01:22:28,519
Speaker 3: That's what I was doing this morning.

1737
01:22:28,600 --> 01:22:29,400
Speaker 4: So we had to know.

1738
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:31,879
Speaker 1: Oh, Mollie, such a legend.

1739
01:22:32,400 --> 01:22:34,439
Speaker 5: I was propagating my basil tops in my little sun

1740
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:35,679
Speaker 5: hat listening to show.

1741
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:40,439
Speaker 1: All right, the podcast has ended very well.

1742
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:55,479
Speaker 3: Welcome back to you.

1743
01:22:55,600 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 5: It could happen here in a daily podcast about the

1744
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:01,400
Speaker 5: widening cracks in society threatening to swallow. I am once

1745
01:23:01,439 --> 01:23:04,120
Speaker 5: again your occasional host Molly Conger, joined today by your

1746
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:05,639
Speaker 5: friend and mine, Robert Evans.

1747
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:07,200
Speaker 1: Hi.

1748
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:12,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, friends of all people, how are you doing, Molly.

1749
01:23:12,840 --> 01:23:15,000
Speaker 5: Reilly started things off, I hurt my feelings.

1750
01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:18,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, you and I have been buddies

1751
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:21,080
Speaker 2: for a while. We're a special kind of friend that

1752
01:23:21,120 --> 01:23:24,759
Speaker 2: can only exist in the era of signal loops because

1753
01:23:25,400 --> 01:23:28,559
Speaker 2: we met in twenty twenty and then since then the

1754
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:31,280
Speaker 2: bulk of our socializing has been one or the other

1755
01:23:31,360 --> 01:23:33,920
Speaker 2: of us being like, so, this fucked up thing happened

1756
01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:34,919
Speaker 2: to me on the internet.

1757
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:39,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's friends at the end of the World's.

1758
01:23:39,600 --> 01:23:41,600
Speaker 2: Friends at the end of the world. Yeah, watching the

1759
01:23:41,680 --> 01:23:43,280
Speaker 2: long slow slide together.

1760
01:23:43,920 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 5: Well, today I've got sort of an update on the

1761
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:49,120
Speaker 5: ongoing cases against the Nazis who invaded my local college

1762
01:23:49,160 --> 01:23:52,799
Speaker 5: campus seven years ago. I see, it's sort of because

1763
01:23:52,800 --> 01:23:56,240
Speaker 5: it's some messy story and the end result is nothing.

1764
01:23:57,360 --> 01:24:00,960
Speaker 5: So we finally got a case to trial and nothing changed.

1765
01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:03,880
Speaker 5: So for listeners who aren't keeping tabs on my local

1766
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:06,599
Speaker 5: county court's effort to apply an old anti clan law

1767
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:09,519
Speaker 5: to a Nazi rally that happened a lifetime ago, just

1768
01:24:09,520 --> 01:24:10,400
Speaker 5: a quick reminder.

1769
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:11,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, long time ago.

1770
01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:14,559
Speaker 5: This is about the August eleventh, twenty seventeen, torch march

1771
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:16,840
Speaker 5: held at the University of Virginia on the eve of

1772
01:24:16,840 --> 01:24:19,840
Speaker 5: the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville. I've done a.

1773
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:22,760
Speaker 2: Couple This is not the rally. This is not the

1774
01:24:22,800 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 2: precise like the rally where there was the James Alexfield

1775
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:30,080
Speaker 2: did his vehicle based terrorist attack. This was the thing

1776
01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:31,080
Speaker 2: that happened before that.

1777
01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:33,439
Speaker 5: This was the appetizer, right, This was the night before

1778
01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:36,240
Speaker 5: they all got together and held their torches. And so

1779
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:38,880
Speaker 5: I've done a couple episodes about these cases, and I've

1780
01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:41,200
Speaker 5: been writing about them in my newsletter, The Devil's Advocate.

1781
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:43,559
Speaker 5: So if you want a deeper dive into the cases

1782
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:47,960
Speaker 5: more generally, that is available elsewhere. So in the year

1783
01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:50,880
Speaker 5: and change since these cases started getting filed, we've seen

1784
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:54,200
Speaker 5: eleven guys charged under this sort of obscure Virginia law

1785
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:56,280
Speaker 5: that makes it a felony to burn an object with

1786
01:24:56,320 --> 01:24:59,360
Speaker 5: the intent to intimidate. It's based on an old anti

1787
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:03,240
Speaker 5: clan law criminalizing cross burning. But back in nineteen ninety eight,

1788
01:25:03,240 --> 01:25:05,360
Speaker 5: a couple of clansmen got into some trouble for burning

1789
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:08,240
Speaker 5: some crosses. And I'm trying to break myself up the

1790
01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:10,640
Speaker 5: habit of getting really deep into these sort of tangential

1791
01:25:11,120 --> 01:25:14,040
Speaker 5: pieces of history that underlie a story, because it turns

1792
01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:17,000
Speaker 5: out that's my special interest and not actually great podcasting.

1793
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 5: But the long and the short of it is, Virginia's

1794
01:25:19,000 --> 01:25:21,920
Speaker 5: cross burning statute had to be amended. The original law

1795
01:25:22,000 --> 01:25:24,479
Speaker 5: banned it outright, with this sort of built in assumption

1796
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:27,640
Speaker 5: that like, obviously, if you're burning across you're trying to

1797
01:25:27,680 --> 01:25:30,880
Speaker 5: communicate a certain kind of threat. But the law didn't

1798
01:25:30,880 --> 01:25:33,559
Speaker 5: actually say that. It just made it illegal to do it.

1799
01:25:34,320 --> 01:25:37,439
Speaker 5: And so the act itself of burning the cross under

1800
01:25:37,439 --> 01:25:40,520
Speaker 5: the old law was prima facia evidence of intent to intimidate,

1801
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:44,000
Speaker 5: and the courts ultimately found that that's unconstitutional. So in

1802
01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:46,280
Speaker 5: two thousand and two, the General Assembly amended the law

1803
01:25:46,320 --> 01:25:49,200
Speaker 5: and they just added in some specific language that you

1804
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:51,920
Speaker 5: have to be doing it with a specific intent, right,

1805
01:25:51,920 --> 01:25:55,920
Speaker 5: you have to be doing this to intimidate someone. Again,

1806
01:25:56,080 --> 01:25:58,879
Speaker 5: that's kind of implied, but the implication was not sufficient,

1807
01:25:58,920 --> 01:25:59,640
Speaker 5: so they changed it.

1808
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:01,400
Speaker 3: I know that sounds like some really.

1809
01:26:01,200 --> 01:26:04,040
Speaker 5: Like c span level like boring shit, like legislative history

1810
01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:05,640
Speaker 5: is not why you're here, But I promise that's going

1811
01:26:05,680 --> 01:26:08,200
Speaker 5: to pay off. Right, So the law doesn't specify what

1812
01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:10,679
Speaker 5: you're burning. It's not just crosses, it's any burning object,

1813
01:26:10,760 --> 01:26:12,280
Speaker 5: but it does say you have to be doing it

1814
01:26:12,280 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 5: with a particular intent and in a way.

1815
01:26:14,439 --> 01:26:18,040
Speaker 2: Could you theoretically smoke a cigarette in an aggressive manner

1816
01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:19,080
Speaker 2: and violate this law?

1817
01:26:19,200 --> 01:26:22,080
Speaker 5: However, the Nazis lawyers keep asking that, and I don't

1818
01:26:22,120 --> 01:26:22,439
Speaker 5: know the.

1819
01:26:22,479 --> 01:26:24,320
Speaker 2: I feel like the answer is I have to see

1820
01:26:24,320 --> 01:26:25,599
Speaker 2: great minds think alike.

1821
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:28,519
Speaker 5: I feel like every one of these guys lawyers has

1822
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:30,559
Speaker 5: been like, what if I flicked a cigarette at you?

1823
01:26:30,600 --> 01:26:33,559
Speaker 2: And it's like, I mean, well, flicking as I would

1824
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:36,080
Speaker 2: say that that's clearly a sort because you can actually

1825
01:26:36,160 --> 01:26:38,280
Speaker 2: hurt someone with it, but like just smoking it, right,

1826
01:26:38,360 --> 01:26:39,080
Speaker 2: like with that tex.

1827
01:26:39,000 --> 01:26:42,200
Speaker 5: Right, Like if I'm smoking a cigarette while harassing you.

1828
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:44,280
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah, be like you're going to go

1829
01:26:44,439 --> 01:26:47,680
Speaker 2: up like this cigarette, bro, and then I light this cigarette?

1830
01:26:47,720 --> 01:26:49,760
Speaker 2: Like is that if I violated it?

1831
01:26:49,880 --> 01:26:50,479
Speaker 3: I mean, I.

1832
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 5: Guess maybe, But it's all sort of contextual, right, So

1833
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:56,120
Speaker 5: the language of the law is what it is. You

1834
01:26:56,160 --> 01:26:57,880
Speaker 5: could try to bring that case, I'm not sure that

1835
01:26:58,360 --> 01:27:02,840
Speaker 5: it would work. So you bring an object specifically in

1836
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:05,719
Speaker 5: a way that would make somebody feel like you're gonna

1837
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:08,400
Speaker 5: hurt them, right, so placing someone in fear of injury

1838
01:27:08,479 --> 01:27:11,120
Speaker 5: or death. But since that change was made in two

1839
01:27:11,160 --> 01:27:14,880
Speaker 5: thousand and two, nobody's ever actually been charged with it. So,

1840
01:27:15,160 --> 01:27:18,040
Speaker 5: like many laws, like Virginia's prohibition on trying to incite

1841
01:27:18,040 --> 01:27:20,599
Speaker 5: a race war, that is apparently a class four felony.

1842
01:27:21,280 --> 01:27:23,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, Thomas Jefferson might have had a hand in that law.

1843
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:25,240
Speaker 2: That's scance.

1844
01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:28,479
Speaker 5: Actually it's from nineteen fifty and I'm really interested in

1845
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:30,760
Speaker 5: the legislative history. I'm gonna ask a law librarian. But

1846
01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:33,160
Speaker 5: again I'm lost again. I'm lost again. So this has

1847
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:36,120
Speaker 5: just been sitting on the books for twenty years, waiting

1848
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:39,960
Speaker 5: for somebody to try it, and so last year somebody

1849
01:27:39,960 --> 01:27:42,439
Speaker 5: tried it. Last year, somebody finally put the law to

1850
01:27:42,479 --> 01:27:44,920
Speaker 5: the test and started charging the guys who participated in

1851
01:27:44,960 --> 01:27:48,040
Speaker 5: that torch march. And what better application of this law, right,

1852
01:27:48,080 --> 01:27:50,280
Speaker 5: I can't think of a clearer example. The torches, they're

1853
01:27:50,280 --> 01:27:53,599
Speaker 5: on fire, they're chanting blood and soil, they're throwing Hitler's salutes,

1854
01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:57,040
Speaker 5: they're attacking people. And of the eleven men charged so far,

1855
01:27:57,360 --> 01:27:59,880
Speaker 5: five have already pled guilty. Four of those have already

1856
01:27:59,880 --> 01:28:02,719
Speaker 5: been sentenced, all receiving active sentences of a year or less,

1857
01:28:03,320 --> 01:28:06,800
Speaker 5: and they've actually already completed those sentences. Only half of

1858
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:08,960
Speaker 5: those guys actually went home from here, though, and then

1859
01:28:09,200 --> 01:28:13,280
Speaker 5: the little aside Tyler Dyke served a few months here,

1860
01:28:13,320 --> 01:28:15,160
Speaker 5: and then he got picked up by the US Marshalls

1861
01:28:15,200 --> 01:28:18,920
Speaker 5: on federal charges for the insurrection. William Fears served a year,

1862
01:28:18,960 --> 01:28:20,800
Speaker 5: and he actually just got picked up the other day

1863
01:28:20,840 --> 01:28:23,960
Speaker 5: by a county in Pennsylvania. It's an old bench warrant.

1864
01:28:24,120 --> 01:28:25,920
Speaker 5: He's been in jail so many times in so many

1865
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:27,880
Speaker 5: states for the last twenty years that they've actually been

1866
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:30,360
Speaker 5: having trouble getting a hold of him for violating his

1867
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:34,080
Speaker 5: probation fifteen years ago. They let him off on probation

1868
01:28:34,200 --> 01:28:36,719
Speaker 5: for lying on a firearm application in two thousand and five,

1869
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:40,000
Speaker 5: but then he kidnapped a college freshman and stabbed her

1870
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:43,320
Speaker 5: in the face, which I think was a probation violation,

1871
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:45,960
Speaker 5: And by the time they got around to bringing him in,

1872
01:28:46,000 --> 01:28:48,080
Speaker 5: he was already back in prison for strangling a different woman.

1873
01:28:48,680 --> 01:28:51,840
Speaker 5: Again another digression. Sorry, So, even though we've had five

1874
01:28:51,920 --> 01:28:54,920
Speaker 5: guilty please, we still hadn't actually seen this case taken

1875
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:57,360
Speaker 5: to trial, so we know five defendants looked at the

1876
01:28:57,360 --> 01:29:00,600
Speaker 5: evidence and thought, oh, yeah, well it's a video of

1877
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:03,760
Speaker 5: me committing that crime. We still didn't know what a

1878
01:29:03,880 --> 01:29:06,880
Speaker 5: jury would make of it. And this month Jacob Dix

1879
01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:10,599
Speaker 5: took his case to trial, and we still don't actually

1880
01:29:10,640 --> 01:29:12,720
Speaker 5: know what a jury would make of it, because it

1881
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:17,400
Speaker 5: ended in a mistrial. After twelve hours of deliberation over

1882
01:29:17,439 --> 01:29:19,960
Speaker 5: the course of two days, which was significantly longer than

1883
01:29:19,960 --> 01:29:23,240
Speaker 5: they actually spent hearing the evidence, the jury was deadlocked.

1884
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:26,519
Speaker 5: They had eight not guilty votes, three guilty, and one

1885
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:29,880
Speaker 5: person who didn't have an opinion either way. A source

1886
01:29:29,960 --> 01:29:32,120
Speaker 5: tells me the jurors all agreed not to make any

1887
01:29:32,120 --> 01:29:35,040
Speaker 5: public statements or to discuss what happened in the deliberation room,

1888
01:29:35,600 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 5: so we don't know for sure what the debate was

1889
01:29:38,000 --> 01:29:41,240
Speaker 5: like in there. But I sat through the trial, and honestly,

1890
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:43,639
Speaker 5: I know what kind of case I would have put

1891
01:29:43,680 --> 01:29:46,759
Speaker 5: on right. So obviously, obviously I believe a guilty verdict

1892
01:29:46,800 --> 01:29:49,880
Speaker 5: is achievable in this case. But given what I saw,

1893
01:29:50,240 --> 01:29:54,960
Speaker 5: I'm surprised even as single juror voted guilty. There's nothing there.

1894
01:29:55,840 --> 01:29:57,760
Speaker 5: But before I tell you about the three days I

1895
01:29:57,840 --> 01:29:59,960
Speaker 5: wasted sitting on a wooden bench in a courtroom un

1896
01:30:00,120 --> 01:30:04,040
Speaker 5: to use for clan meetings. Let's hear from some advertisers.

1897
01:30:04,320 --> 01:30:20,479
Speaker 2: Ah, speaking of the Nope, nope, ads, Ah, we're back.

1898
01:30:20,920 --> 01:30:22,479
Speaker 2: What a what a time to be alive.

1899
01:30:23,040 --> 01:30:26,280
Speaker 5: We are alive. The trial started on June fourth, and

1900
01:30:26,439 --> 01:30:30,000
Speaker 5: it did not go well. I've written about this at

1901
01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 5: greater length in my newsletter if you want some background

1902
01:30:32,280 --> 01:30:34,800
Speaker 5: on why the case ended up with a special prosecutor.

1903
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:38,559
Speaker 5: But basically, the judge fell for a Nazi conspiracy theory

1904
01:30:38,600 --> 01:30:40,559
Speaker 5: and that's where we ended up. So the case goes

1905
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:44,280
Speaker 5: to try good. Yeah, you know, I I have a

1906
01:30:44,320 --> 01:30:47,240
Speaker 5: problem with the system in Virginia of these substitute judges.

1907
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:49,040
Speaker 5: So we had to bring in a substitute judge. And

1908
01:30:49,120 --> 01:30:52,320
Speaker 5: it's just retired guys. So they take cases if they

1909
01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:55,280
Speaker 5: feel like it. They don't yea, so they.

1910
01:30:55,360 --> 01:30:58,760
Speaker 2: Just add yeah, just just ad hoc judging. Sure that

1911
01:30:58,800 --> 01:30:59,280
Speaker 2: seems good.

1912
01:30:59,320 --> 01:31:01,400
Speaker 5: Hey, there's a retire age for a reason, Like, I

1913
01:31:01,400 --> 01:31:03,599
Speaker 5: don't know that you're keeping up with the case law. Anyway,

1914
01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:07,120
Speaker 5: we had a substitute judge and a special prosecutor, So

1915
01:31:07,200 --> 01:31:09,640
Speaker 5: the case goes to trial with an out of town prosecutor.

1916
01:31:09,840 --> 01:31:12,559
Speaker 5: And because of how late in the game this motion

1917
01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:15,639
Speaker 5: was granted. And there's the speedy trial clock. They had

1918
01:31:15,640 --> 01:31:17,880
Speaker 5: a pretty limited amount of time to get up to

1919
01:31:17,920 --> 01:31:20,880
Speaker 5: speed after being assigned the case to prepare for trial.

1920
01:31:21,280 --> 01:31:22,880
Speaker 5: So they didn't know the case. They don't know the

1921
01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:25,400
Speaker 5: local cops, they don't know the witnesses, they're not familiar

1922
01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:28,360
Speaker 5: with the clerk of court here, just the basic procedural stuff.

1923
01:31:28,360 --> 01:31:30,680
Speaker 5: This is not their home turf, and they don't really

1924
01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:32,960
Speaker 5: have any investment in this case. This isn't something that

1925
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:37,240
Speaker 5: they chose to charge. It's just assigned to them. And again,

1926
01:31:37,640 --> 01:31:41,479
Speaker 5: this is the first time this law has ever been

1927
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:43,720
Speaker 5: put in front of a jury, so there's no playbook here, right.

1928
01:31:43,720 --> 01:31:45,639
Speaker 5: They can't sort of look to how this usually goes

1929
01:31:45,680 --> 01:31:48,840
Speaker 5: and just do that. The real problem, though, is something

1930
01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:53,800
Speaker 5: that's not unique at all. A prosecutor is desperate for

1931
01:31:53,880 --> 01:31:58,440
Speaker 5: a good victim. They want something that is clean and uncomplicated.

1932
01:31:58,880 --> 01:32:00,360
Speaker 5: They want to be able to show the jury a

1933
01:32:00,360 --> 01:32:03,080
Speaker 5: little morality play with good guys and bad guys and

1934
01:32:03,120 --> 01:32:06,280
Speaker 5: no messy stuff. They don't want the story to have

1935
01:32:06,320 --> 01:32:09,200
Speaker 5: any elements that could snag on a juror's ideas about

1936
01:32:09,200 --> 01:32:12,400
Speaker 5: the world. So instead of telling a story about anti

1937
01:32:12,439 --> 01:32:17,120
Speaker 5: fascists being attacked by fascists, which is what happened, they

1938
01:32:17,160 --> 01:32:19,600
Speaker 5: shaped their case around testimony from a bystander.

1939
01:32:20,520 --> 01:32:23,320
Speaker 2: Oh good, the most reliable kind of testimony.

1940
01:32:23,439 --> 01:32:26,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, now, I remember I promised that boring stuff about

1941
01:32:26,320 --> 01:32:29,679
Speaker 5: the statutory requirement of intent would pay off. Right, Well,

1942
01:32:30,360 --> 01:32:34,280
Speaker 5: I'm not sure the prosecutor understood that well. And if

1943
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:36,280
Speaker 5: I were to tell you that something was making me

1944
01:32:36,360 --> 01:32:39,720
Speaker 5: feel intimidated, you know, generally, sort of colloquially speaking, I'm

1945
01:32:39,760 --> 01:32:42,880
Speaker 5: saying I'm afraid. I'm being made to feel timid. Is

1946
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 5: the root of the word, right, I am uncomfortable. I

1947
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:48,960
Speaker 5: am afraid. But it means something really specific here. It

1948
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:53,400
Speaker 5: doesn't just mean being afraid in conjunction with that language

1949
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:56,920
Speaker 5: about placing someone in reasonable fear of bodily injury or death.

1950
01:32:57,360 --> 01:33:00,880
Speaker 5: We're not talking about feeling afraid. We're talking about the

1951
01:33:00,960 --> 01:33:04,439
Speaker 5: legal idea of a true threat. So a true threat

1952
01:33:04,479 --> 01:33:06,519
Speaker 5: is something that is not free speech. It is conduct

1953
01:33:06,560 --> 01:33:09,240
Speaker 5: and expression that is no longer protected by the First Amendment.

1954
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:11,360
Speaker 5: And I'm I'm not going to go to bat here

1955
01:33:11,400 --> 01:33:13,400
Speaker 5: for the First Amendment. I'm not going to defend this

1956
01:33:13,479 --> 01:33:16,000
Speaker 5: sort of like libertarian idea that actually it's good and

1957
01:33:16,120 --> 01:33:19,559
Speaker 5: healthy for a society that people can march around playing

1958
01:33:19,600 --> 01:33:24,080
Speaker 5: junior Stormtrooper. But you know, technically they can right loader

1959
01:33:24,120 --> 01:33:24,360
Speaker 5: hate it.

1960
01:33:24,400 --> 01:33:25,960
Speaker 2: That's not what we're talking about it. It's the difference

1961
01:33:25,960 --> 01:33:28,439
Speaker 2: between saying I think the government should round up and

1962
01:33:28,560 --> 01:33:31,439
Speaker 2: kill this group of people, which is absolutely protected speech,

1963
01:33:32,040 --> 01:33:34,800
Speaker 2: and saying I am going to murder you tonight in

1964
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:38,280
Speaker 2: your home at this address, which you theoretically can get

1965
01:33:38,320 --> 01:33:40,559
Speaker 2: in trouble for, although a lot of times people don't.

1966
01:33:41,120 --> 01:33:43,040
Speaker 5: You know, in my experience, people who see that to

1967
01:33:43,080 --> 01:33:45,479
Speaker 5: me don't get in trouble. But I'm not sure that's. Yes,

1968
01:33:45,800 --> 01:33:46,880
Speaker 5: it's a legal thing.

1969
01:33:47,479 --> 01:33:50,280
Speaker 2: It's mainly they get in trouble when they do that

1970
01:33:50,360 --> 01:33:53,519
Speaker 2: two FBI agents, as that one Trump fan did after

1971
01:33:54,200 --> 01:33:55,439
Speaker 2: Hunter Biden's conviction.

1972
01:33:56,600 --> 01:33:59,080
Speaker 5: Or there's been a rash lately of people getting picked

1973
01:33:59,160 --> 01:34:01,920
Speaker 5: up after they leave a voicemail at a congressional office.

1974
01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:05,200
Speaker 5: Don't leave a threat in a voice, Okay, don't don't that.

1975
01:34:05,280 --> 01:34:07,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, Wyatt, what are you? What are you doing? How

1976
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:11,200
Speaker 2: do you think this is going to work out? People

1977
01:34:11,240 --> 01:34:11,799
Speaker 2: are cooked?

1978
01:34:12,280 --> 01:34:13,960
Speaker 5: So a lot of people are learning lately what a

1979
01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:17,719
Speaker 5: true threat is right. So you know, up until that point,

1980
01:34:18,520 --> 01:34:20,559
Speaker 5: there's a lot of shit you could do that sucks.

1981
01:34:20,800 --> 01:34:23,400
Speaker 5: You can march around and be a little Nazi with

1982
01:34:23,439 --> 01:34:26,120
Speaker 5: your pals, but what you cannot do is engage in

1983
01:34:26,120 --> 01:34:29,000
Speaker 5: conduct that constitutes a true threat. And I think drawing

1984
01:34:29,080 --> 01:34:31,880
Speaker 5: that line in a really clear way for the jury

1985
01:34:32,479 --> 01:34:34,240
Speaker 5: was what this case should have been about. I think

1986
01:34:34,360 --> 01:34:36,960
Speaker 5: they needed to hold the jury's hand through that, you know,

1987
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:39,320
Speaker 5: and say, you know, the defense is making this a

1988
01:34:39,360 --> 01:34:41,880
Speaker 5: free speech case. And if it had stopped here, if

1989
01:34:41,920 --> 01:34:44,280
Speaker 5: it had stopped at this point, you know, show them

1990
01:34:44,560 --> 01:34:48,200
Speaker 5: where it stopped, where it changed. But they didn't do that,

1991
01:34:48,640 --> 01:34:52,840
Speaker 5: and they left that line really blurry because the problem

1992
01:34:52,920 --> 01:34:56,160
Speaker 5: is the point at which that line was crossed was

1993
01:34:56,200 --> 01:34:59,720
Speaker 5: when that march encircled the small group of counter protesters, right,

1994
01:34:59,720 --> 01:35:02,960
Speaker 5: So they spent half an hour marching and then they

1995
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:05,200
Speaker 5: got to where they were going, and that's when it

1996
01:35:05,240 --> 01:35:08,360
Speaker 5: crossed the line. You know, they lit their torches, they marched,

1997
01:35:08,360 --> 01:35:11,960
Speaker 5: they chanted. It was obviously intended to evoke Nazi Germany.

1998
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:14,240
Speaker 5: You know, they're saying blood and soil Jews will not

1999
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:17,160
Speaker 5: replace us. It's a real Hitler vibe and a lot

2000
01:35:17,160 --> 01:35:19,240
Speaker 5: of people who are on the fence about the prosecutions

2001
01:35:19,280 --> 01:35:22,720
Speaker 5: are looking at that and saying, well, yeah, like that's disgusting,

2002
01:35:22,880 --> 01:35:28,000
Speaker 5: But isn't that free speech? And it is. Most of

2003
01:35:28,080 --> 01:35:31,080
Speaker 5: that was right, So most of that conduct was not

2004
01:35:31,160 --> 01:35:33,840
Speaker 5: against the law. You know, if you saw that, you

2005
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:37,080
Speaker 5: might feel afraid. People did, and that makes sense. It

2006
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:40,240
Speaker 5: was very alarming to see. It might make you feel unsafe,

2007
01:35:40,920 --> 01:35:44,439
Speaker 5: and it could and definitely did eventually evolve into a

2008
01:35:44,479 --> 01:35:48,719
Speaker 5: situation where people are unsafe. But seeing them pass by

2009
01:35:49,040 --> 01:35:52,719
Speaker 5: doesn't actually put you in a position where you might die,

2010
01:35:52,880 --> 01:35:55,559
Speaker 5: I mean not right at the moment anyway, Right, You know,

2011
01:35:55,600 --> 01:35:58,360
Speaker 5: the law doesn't really extend to the idea that this

2012
01:35:58,400 --> 01:36:00,919
Speaker 5: is part of a larger societal shift that ends violently.

2013
01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:03,680
Speaker 5: You know, this existential thread of the rise of fascism

2014
01:36:04,680 --> 01:36:07,439
Speaker 5: doesn't constitute a true threat in the immediate sense under

2015
01:36:07,479 --> 01:36:07,800
Speaker 5: the law.

2016
01:36:07,920 --> 01:36:08,120
Speaker 4: Right.

2017
01:36:09,200 --> 01:36:12,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, A guy, a dude in a similar situation in

2018
01:36:12,680 --> 01:36:17,080
Speaker 2: DC in twenty twenty stabbed a person and got off

2019
01:36:17,280 --> 01:36:20,120
Speaker 2: because it was very clear that he like, when you

2020
01:36:20,160 --> 01:36:21,599
Speaker 2: are surrounded.

2021
01:36:24,920 --> 01:36:28,040
Speaker 5: That's true threat, right, that you are in imminent danger. Right,

2022
01:36:28,040 --> 01:36:32,120
Speaker 5: And it wasn't just a person that was Jeremy, I know, yeah,

2023
01:36:32,160 --> 01:36:33,839
Speaker 5: that way. That was Jeremy Bertino.

2024
01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:35,760
Speaker 2: One of my favorite stabbings.

2025
01:36:36,800 --> 01:36:39,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, just a weird turn of events for Jeremy because

2026
01:36:39,840 --> 01:36:44,960
Speaker 5: the month before he got stabbed it was, oh gosh,

2027
01:36:45,000 --> 01:36:46,679
Speaker 5: it was one of the other Proud Way rallies in DC.

2028
01:36:47,240 --> 01:36:49,280
Speaker 5: I was surrounded by a group of proud boys that

2029
01:36:49,320 --> 01:36:51,320
Speaker 5: he was commanding, right, and so I was in that

2030
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:54,960
Speaker 5: the same position, and I was getting a little nervous

2031
01:36:54,960 --> 01:36:56,519
Speaker 5: because they were starting to, you know, get my face

2032
01:36:56,560 --> 01:36:59,639
Speaker 5: and touch me and try and move me around. Jeremy

2033
01:36:59,640 --> 01:37:04,559
Speaker 5: actually meet them. Stop. You know, you don't chivalry. You

2034
01:37:04,560 --> 01:37:06,400
Speaker 5: don't got to hand it to Jeremy. But I think

2035
01:37:06,400 --> 01:37:07,720
Speaker 5: he knew it would have been bad for them if

2036
01:37:07,720 --> 01:37:08,360
Speaker 5: they stabbed me.

2037
01:37:08,600 --> 01:37:11,120
Speaker 2: Little did he know, Yeah, he would be there, whereas

2038
01:37:11,160 --> 01:37:14,439
Speaker 2: the guy who stabbed him was in block and such.

2039
01:37:14,680 --> 01:37:18,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, just a strange, strange twist of history for Jeremy.

2040
01:37:18,240 --> 01:37:23,639
Speaker 5: Now he states, witness m hm, anyway, where were we

2041
01:37:23,640 --> 01:37:25,920
Speaker 5: We could cut some of that. I'm out of it today.

2042
01:37:26,160 --> 01:37:27,960
Speaker 5: We're both in a bad way right now.

2043
01:37:29,040 --> 01:37:32,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think everyone's always in a bad way these days.

2044
01:37:32,880 --> 01:37:37,720
Speaker 2: That's it's worth acknowledging. I can't sleep anymore. You're frazzled, like,

2045
01:37:37,880 --> 01:37:40,840
Speaker 2: welcome to twenty twenty four. It's fine, We're doing as

2046
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:42,799
Speaker 2: well as either a presidential candidate.

2047
01:37:43,840 --> 01:37:46,080
Speaker 5: I had to wait until the recess in the city

2048
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:48,120
Speaker 5: council meeting yesterday to go outside and check on the

2049
01:37:48,200 --> 01:37:50,679
Speaker 5: drive by on my block, Like things are going good.

2050
01:37:51,960 --> 01:37:57,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, things are things are solid? Uh yeah?

2051
01:37:57,520 --> 01:37:59,240
Speaker 5: Should I just take the whole paragraph.

2052
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:01,480
Speaker 2: From the top, sure, yeah, started.

2053
01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:07,560
Speaker 5: Because I don't even know where to re starve. Okay.

2054
01:38:07,800 --> 01:38:10,120
Speaker 5: It wasn't until the march encounter the counter protesters that

2055
01:38:10,160 --> 01:38:12,840
Speaker 5: there was truly intentional intimidation that placed them in fear

2056
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:15,479
Speaker 5: of injury or death. The people who were trapped, and

2057
01:38:15,520 --> 01:38:17,760
Speaker 5: I mean that literally all avenues of escape were close

2058
01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:20,040
Speaker 5: to them. The march formed a circle around them that

2059
01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:23,160
Speaker 5: was ten men deep. Those were the victims of this crime.

2060
01:38:23,760 --> 01:38:26,599
Speaker 5: They were beaten and punched and kicked and pepper sprayed.

2061
01:38:26,600 --> 01:38:30,240
Speaker 5: It were shoved and hit with lit torches. They thought

2062
01:38:30,280 --> 01:38:36,920
Speaker 5: they would die. But those people are complicated, aren't they right?

2063
01:38:37,320 --> 01:38:41,600
Speaker 5: Those people were Antifa, they were activists, they were believers

2064
01:38:41,640 --> 01:38:45,400
Speaker 5: in Black Lives Matter, they were communists, the anarchists, right,

2065
01:38:45,800 --> 01:38:48,960
Speaker 5: queer people, trans people, people of color, people who attend

2066
01:38:49,040 --> 01:38:52,240
Speaker 5: protests and have attended more since they were people who

2067
01:38:52,320 --> 01:38:55,160
Speaker 5: hated Nazis. There were people with skin in.

2068
01:38:55,160 --> 01:38:59,320
Speaker 2: The game, people whose existence is inherently politicized, and thus

2069
01:38:59,400 --> 01:39:02,080
Speaker 2: attempts to destroy them can't just be seen as a

2070
01:39:02,120 --> 01:39:05,799
Speaker 2: human being being assaulted. They have to be seen as like, well,

2071
01:39:06,400 --> 01:39:08,760
Speaker 2: is the thing that they believe and my opinions on

2072
01:39:08,800 --> 01:39:10,599
Speaker 2: it as a judge a mitigating factor.

2073
01:39:11,320 --> 01:39:15,760
Speaker 5: Right, It's messy, it shouldn't be, but it is right.

2074
01:39:15,800 --> 01:39:17,960
Speaker 5: These were people who believe that we have a duty

2075
01:39:18,000 --> 01:39:20,400
Speaker 5: to each other to stand in the way of the

2076
01:39:20,400 --> 01:39:23,120
Speaker 5: march of fascism, and that night that's literally what they did.

2077
01:39:24,280 --> 01:39:27,439
Speaker 5: And that's murky for a prosecutor. What if the jury

2078
01:39:27,479 --> 01:39:31,720
Speaker 5: doesn't like that, What if, maybe just a little bit

2079
01:39:32,560 --> 01:39:33,439
Speaker 5: they deserved it?

2080
01:39:34,120 --> 01:39:34,320
Speaker 2: Right?

2081
01:39:34,720 --> 01:39:37,120
Speaker 5: Does the law really still protect you if you make

2082
01:39:37,160 --> 01:39:42,400
Speaker 5: a choice a jury doesn't understand. And so the prosecutor

2083
01:39:42,439 --> 01:39:44,479
Speaker 5: chose to rest this case on the shoulders of a

2084
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:47,040
Speaker 5: young woman whose front door the march past that night

2085
01:39:47,160 --> 01:39:50,200
Speaker 5: on its way to the scene of the crime. As

2086
01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:52,320
Speaker 5: a young Jewish woman alone in her room that night,

2087
01:39:52,360 --> 01:39:55,680
Speaker 5: she was terrified to hear the approaching Nazi march. She

2088
01:39:55,760 --> 01:39:58,040
Speaker 5: took off a necklace in a ring bearing symbols of

2089
01:39:58,040 --> 01:40:00,320
Speaker 5: her faith and hid them before she fl at her

2090
01:40:00,320 --> 01:40:05,439
Speaker 5: home and fear. She was absolutely a victim of white

2091
01:40:05,439 --> 01:40:08,559
Speaker 5: supremacist terror. But I do not think she was a

2092
01:40:08,600 --> 01:40:12,080
Speaker 5: victim under the language of this statute. And I want

2093
01:40:12,080 --> 01:40:14,120
Speaker 5: to be so clear about that, right. I'm not saying

2094
01:40:14,160 --> 01:40:16,960
Speaker 5: what happened to her was okay, or that it's her

2095
01:40:17,080 --> 01:40:19,400
Speaker 5: fault that the case was presented this way. She was subpoena,

2096
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:22,200
Speaker 5: she gave the testimony she was required by the law

2097
01:40:22,320 --> 01:40:25,479
Speaker 5: to give, and she gave it well. And she's obviously

2098
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:27,639
Speaker 5: deeply traumatized by this. And so when I say she's

2099
01:40:27,640 --> 01:40:29,400
Speaker 5: not a victim of the crime, when I say that

2100
01:40:30,000 --> 01:40:32,760
Speaker 5: the fear that she felt does not meet this legal standard,

2101
01:40:33,439 --> 01:40:37,040
Speaker 5: I don't mean anything other than that there are far

2102
01:40:37,080 --> 01:40:39,880
Speaker 5: more ways to harm a person and a community than

2103
01:40:39,920 --> 01:40:43,519
Speaker 5: have been contemplated by our part time General Assembly. But

2104
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:50,320
Speaker 5: under this statute, being frightened, however reasonable, that is, however

2105
01:40:50,400 --> 01:40:54,320
Speaker 5: serious she felt that fear is not the same as

2106
01:40:54,360 --> 01:40:57,639
Speaker 5: being placed in reasonable fear of death or bodily injury.

2107
01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:00,800
Speaker 5: I think her testimony could have been really valuable as

2108
01:41:00,800 --> 01:41:04,559
Speaker 5: a supplement to this overall presentation, because she was very emotional.

2109
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:07,000
Speaker 5: I think it was very moving for the jury, but

2110
01:41:07,080 --> 01:41:09,720
Speaker 5: it didn't move the needle legally, And I think it

2111
01:41:09,760 --> 01:41:12,240
Speaker 5: was a really perilous foundation on which to try to

2112
01:41:12,280 --> 01:41:15,479
Speaker 5: construct a case. But you know, it would not be

2113
01:41:15,600 --> 01:41:18,960
Speaker 5: a perilous course of action for you to take, Robert

2114
01:41:19,640 --> 01:41:20,280
Speaker 5: Jesus Christ.

2115
01:41:20,600 --> 01:41:22,760
Speaker 2: It would be perilous if I didn't get this ad

2116
01:41:22,800 --> 01:41:27,240
Speaker 2: break in because Sophie has a taser now, so let's

2117
01:41:27,320 --> 01:41:28,800
Speaker 2: just let's just move right along.

2118
01:41:28,880 --> 01:41:30,640
Speaker 5: Does it ever stop feeling dirty to do that?

2119
01:41:31,880 --> 01:41:32,240
Speaker 2: No?

2120
01:41:32,240 --> 01:41:32,280
Speaker 3: No?

2121
01:41:32,479 --> 01:41:36,400
Speaker 2: I mean, you know what, what doesn't feel dirty these days, Mollie.

2122
01:41:36,400 --> 01:41:40,240
Speaker 2: What feels clean probably buy I pay so much in

2123
01:41:40,360 --> 01:41:42,880
Speaker 2: taxes and that always feels dirty. Like I know where

2124
01:41:42,880 --> 01:41:45,639
Speaker 2: they're going. I see the celebrities signing the bombs they

2125
01:41:45,640 --> 01:41:59,320
Speaker 2: helped pay. I don't feel good about anything. We're back,

2126
01:41:59,360 --> 01:42:01,439
Speaker 2: and you know, here's a free ad, Molly. I found

2127
01:42:01,439 --> 01:42:05,040
Speaker 2: out where I can buy the really good mace. I

2128
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:08,120
Speaker 2: learned about this mace the right way to learn about mace,

2129
01:42:08,120 --> 01:42:10,360
Speaker 2: which is I had it used on me and was like, wow,

2130
01:42:10,400 --> 01:42:12,960
Speaker 2: that mace was much more debilitating than normal mace.

2131
01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:14,080
Speaker 5: You've got a free samples.

2132
01:42:14,880 --> 01:42:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got a free sample from two different federal agencies,

2133
01:42:17,840 --> 01:42:20,200
Speaker 2: and it it knocked me at a commission for about

2134
01:42:20,200 --> 01:42:22,719
Speaker 2: a half hour each time, which is pretty good for mace.

2135
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:26,120
Speaker 2: It's called silver Bullet and it's a like a ten

2136
01:42:26,160 --> 01:42:29,599
Speaker 2: percent OC two percent CS. I maybe mixing those up mix,

2137
01:42:30,080 --> 01:42:31,720
Speaker 2: but you're not supposed to be able to buy it

2138
01:42:31,760 --> 01:42:34,120
Speaker 2: if you're not law enforcement. But it's not illegal. So

2139
01:42:34,160 --> 01:42:37,080
Speaker 2: I finally just found a website that doesn't doesn't check,

2140
01:42:37,280 --> 01:42:39,200
Speaker 2: and now I've got the good mace. I don't really

2141
01:42:39,240 --> 01:42:40,600
Speaker 2: know what to do with it.

2142
01:42:40,479 --> 01:42:42,680
Speaker 5: But does it actually have silver in it? Will it

2143
01:42:42,720 --> 01:42:43,679
Speaker 5: also kill germs?

2144
01:42:44,600 --> 01:42:44,880
Speaker 3: No?

2145
01:42:44,880 --> 01:42:48,120
Speaker 2: No, no, I have to use my anti microbial silver

2146
01:42:48,360 --> 01:42:51,920
Speaker 2: wound dressings for that, but I do have some of those.

2147
01:42:52,120 --> 01:42:55,839
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ always useful to have molly important stuff.

2148
01:42:57,120 --> 01:42:59,400
Speaker 5: Well, I'm glad you got yourself a little treat. I

2149
01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:01,920
Speaker 5: think that's import in these days, a little treat, Yeah,

2150
01:43:02,080 --> 01:43:05,000
Speaker 5: sort of. One of my guiding principles in this increasingly

2151
01:43:05,160 --> 01:43:07,479
Speaker 5: awful world is if you can get a little treat,

2152
01:43:07,479 --> 01:43:08,479
Speaker 5: you should get a little treat.

2153
01:43:09,439 --> 01:43:12,599
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of my guiding principles is like, whenever I

2154
01:43:12,640 --> 01:43:15,679
Speaker 2: decide I'm depressed and I'm going to like do retail therapy,

2155
01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:18,200
Speaker 2: just just a pick up a new kind of weapon,

2156
01:43:18,200 --> 01:43:20,720
Speaker 2: a kind of weapon I don't have already. I got

2157
01:43:20,720 --> 01:43:23,439
Speaker 2: a rungu the other day, which is a kind of

2158
01:43:24,280 --> 01:43:27,719
Speaker 2: stick that you beat people with. You know, I'm making

2159
01:43:27,760 --> 01:43:31,080
Speaker 2: sure that I'm like diversified my portfolio.

2160
01:43:31,520 --> 01:43:33,720
Speaker 5: I was thinking more like sometimes at Kroger they have

2161
01:43:33,760 --> 01:43:36,280
Speaker 5: a new flavor of chips. But your thing's cool too.

2162
01:43:37,160 --> 01:43:40,479
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, it's good. It's good. Chips can be a

2163
01:43:40,520 --> 01:43:44,520
Speaker 2: weapon anyway. But let's move back to the subject.

2164
01:43:44,240 --> 01:43:46,840
Speaker 5: Back to the courthouse. Right, the defense in this case

2165
01:43:47,360 --> 01:43:49,840
Speaker 5: was right about one thing. I mean, they didn't say

2166
01:43:49,920 --> 01:43:51,720
Speaker 5: very much. They didn't actually put on a case. They

2167
01:43:51,720 --> 01:43:54,080
Speaker 5: put on no evidence and no witnesses. But he spoke

2168
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:56,200
Speaker 5: a few times, right, the attorney, He spoke a few times,

2169
01:43:56,200 --> 01:44:00,080
Speaker 5: And in his closing defense attorney Peter Fraser said he

2170
01:44:00,080 --> 01:44:02,320
Speaker 5: didn't have to put on a case because the prosecutor

2171
01:44:02,320 --> 01:44:05,840
Speaker 5: made his case for him. The counter protesters could not

2172
01:44:06,000 --> 01:44:06,960
Speaker 5: be intimidated.

2173
01:44:08,000 --> 01:44:09,000
Speaker 3: Now that means what.

2174
01:44:08,960 --> 01:44:12,040
Speaker 5: He said, right, the counter protesters in this case, they

2175
01:44:12,080 --> 01:44:16,640
Speaker 5: couldn't be intimidated because they opted into this. The protesters

2176
01:44:16,640 --> 01:44:20,400
Speaker 5: brought this on themselves, their mere presence in this public space,

2177
01:44:20,439 --> 01:44:23,680
Speaker 5: expressing their right to protest was a waiver of their

2178
01:44:23,760 --> 01:44:27,040
Speaker 5: right to safety, and they consented to whatever happened after that,

2179
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:31,760
Speaker 5: and they couldn't be victims of anything. Right. They wanted this,

2180
01:44:32,240 --> 01:44:34,880
Speaker 5: They chose to be there, they knew the Nazis were coming,

2181
01:44:36,960 --> 01:44:40,360
Speaker 5: and the prosecutor's failure to rebut this, to actively push

2182
01:44:40,439 --> 01:44:44,080
Speaker 5: back against the idea that entering this space was some

2183
01:44:44,080 --> 01:44:47,080
Speaker 5: sort of agreement to mutual combat, right, that the failure

2184
01:44:47,080 --> 01:44:49,479
Speaker 5: to push back on that at all can only be

2185
01:44:49,520 --> 01:44:53,240
Speaker 5: seen as an agreement they allowed. The court and the

2186
01:44:53,280 --> 01:44:57,960
Speaker 5: defense and the judge himself said, well, no one was hurt,

2187
01:44:58,200 --> 01:45:01,040
Speaker 5: and they failed to call witnesses who hurt because people

2188
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:01,519
Speaker 5: were hurt.

2189
01:45:01,680 --> 01:45:06,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that seems like a massive, like disqualifying oversight.

2190
01:45:07,400 --> 01:45:09,960
Speaker 5: They you know, they could have sometimes.

2191
01:45:09,640 --> 01:45:12,120
Speaker 2: Especially with anarchists defendants, that could be hard to get

2192
01:45:12,160 --> 01:45:14,720
Speaker 2: people who are willing to testify. But I imagine you can

2193
01:45:14,760 --> 01:45:16,320
Speaker 2: find some people in this case.

2194
01:45:17,120 --> 01:45:17,280
Speaker 3: Right.

2195
01:45:17,320 --> 01:45:19,680
Speaker 5: So the thing is is I acknowledge that there are

2196
01:45:20,400 --> 01:45:22,280
Speaker 5: many of the victims and many of the witnesses who

2197
01:45:22,680 --> 01:45:25,719
Speaker 5: have chosen not to participate in this process. Right. First

2198
01:45:25,720 --> 01:45:27,800
Speaker 5: of all, I'm not saying it would be good if

2199
01:45:27,800 --> 01:45:31,000
Speaker 5: this happened, but technically you can subpoena them anyway.

2200
01:45:31,160 --> 01:45:31,360
Speaker 3: Right.

2201
01:45:31,880 --> 01:45:34,640
Speaker 5: There are people in this case who would have cooperated

2202
01:45:34,840 --> 01:45:37,760
Speaker 5: had they been called. People like Alan Groves, who in

2203
01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:41,160
Speaker 5: twenty seventeen was a dean at UVA who was burned

2204
01:45:41,200 --> 01:45:45,120
Speaker 5: by the flames, or UVA librarian Tyler McGill, who suffered

2205
01:45:45,160 --> 01:45:48,200
Speaker 5: a catastrophic stroke after being struck in the neck by

2206
01:45:48,200 --> 01:45:48,679
Speaker 5: a torch.

2207
01:45:49,400 --> 01:45:51,920
Speaker 2: Free advice there, folks, Free advice there.

2208
01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:57,000
Speaker 5: Prosecutors, they subpoened, but did not call my own friend God,

2209
01:45:57,120 --> 01:45:59,559
Speaker 5: one of the counter protesters there that night, who's testimony

2210
01:45:59,600 --> 01:46:03,479
Speaker 5: about being pepper sprayed put Christopher Cantwell in jail. They

2211
01:46:03,479 --> 01:46:05,720
Speaker 5: did not call Devin Willis or Natalie Romero, who were

2212
01:46:05,720 --> 01:46:08,240
Speaker 5: plaintiffs in the civil lawsuit and have already proven their

2213
01:46:08,240 --> 01:46:11,800
Speaker 5: ability to testify with incredible courage and clarity about being

2214
01:46:11,880 --> 01:46:14,439
Speaker 5: kicked and punched as they were trapped by the wall

2215
01:46:14,520 --> 01:46:17,960
Speaker 5: of flames. In the civil trial, Devon recalled the moment

2216
01:46:18,000 --> 01:46:21,160
Speaker 5: he realized he had been doused in lighter fluid. He

2217
01:46:21,280 --> 01:46:24,760
Speaker 5: thought that they were going to burn him alive. He

2218
01:46:24,920 --> 01:46:27,960
Speaker 5: was nineteen years old, and he testified that all he

2219
01:46:28,000 --> 01:46:30,479
Speaker 5: could think about was that he had so much to

2220
01:46:30,560 --> 01:46:33,160
Speaker 5: live for and he had to find a way out

2221
01:46:34,400 --> 01:46:38,280
Speaker 5: and Natalie. She testified about being trapped, about how small

2222
01:46:38,320 --> 01:46:41,479
Speaker 5: she felt at the center of the screaming mob, and

2223
01:46:41,520 --> 01:46:44,800
Speaker 5: that she thought she would be burned to death as

2224
01:46:44,800 --> 01:46:47,200
Speaker 5: she covered her face and her head from the rain

2225
01:46:47,320 --> 01:46:51,040
Speaker 5: of fists. And she described that she didn't really understand

2226
01:46:51,160 --> 01:46:53,759
Speaker 5: the effects of pepper spray. She was a college student,

2227
01:46:53,800 --> 01:46:56,360
Speaker 5: she'd never been pepper sprayed before. When she got home

2228
01:46:56,400 --> 01:46:58,080
Speaker 5: that night, she sat down on her shower to cry,

2229
01:46:58,160 --> 01:47:01,799
Speaker 5: just trying to process the experience of nearly being killed

2230
01:47:01,800 --> 01:47:04,960
Speaker 5: by a crowd of Nazis, and the hot steam reactivated

2231
01:47:04,960 --> 01:47:08,639
Speaker 5: the chemical irritants, burning her eyes and skin all over again.

2232
01:47:10,280 --> 01:47:13,439
Speaker 5: They didn't call the people who were hurt, and they

2233
01:47:13,520 --> 01:47:17,680
Speaker 5: let the jury think that there were none and the

2234
01:47:17,760 --> 01:47:20,519
Speaker 5: only actual witnessed No, you go ahead.

2235
01:47:20,760 --> 01:47:24,519
Speaker 2: That's just I just it's such a dereliction of duty.

2236
01:47:24,640 --> 01:47:27,960
Speaker 2: Like it's such a frustrating Like it's not hard, Like

2237
01:47:28,000 --> 01:47:31,000
Speaker 2: this is not secret information that you're privy to because

2238
01:47:31,040 --> 01:47:34,519
Speaker 2: of your deep Antifa connections. You can just like google this.

2239
01:47:34,520 --> 01:47:36,680
Speaker 2: This is like thirty minutes of reading to have a

2240
01:47:36,720 --> 01:47:37,639
Speaker 2: couple of those names.

2241
01:47:37,680 --> 01:47:42,639
Speaker 5: At least the Federal Court transcripts of this testimony exist,

2242
01:47:43,120 --> 01:47:46,479
Speaker 5: they're free. I already paid for them.

2243
01:47:46,840 --> 01:47:47,040
Speaker 3: You know.

2244
01:47:47,080 --> 01:47:49,600
Speaker 5: And at one point when the judge said this was

2245
01:47:49,600 --> 01:47:51,680
Speaker 5: outside the presence of the jury when the judge said it,

2246
01:47:52,000 --> 01:47:53,679
Speaker 5: but the judge said, we don't want know one was hurt.

2247
01:47:54,479 --> 01:47:58,439
Speaker 5: And I'm sitting in the courtroom next to someone who

2248
01:47:58,600 --> 01:48:02,360
Speaker 5: was hurt, and I'm just like, I embarrassed to be

2249
01:48:02,439 --> 01:48:06,599
Speaker 5: in this room with these people who are behaving this way.

2250
01:48:07,600 --> 01:48:07,760
Speaker 1: You know.

2251
01:48:07,800 --> 01:48:10,960
Speaker 5: The only actual witness to and victim of this crime

2252
01:48:11,040 --> 01:48:13,720
Speaker 5: that they put on the stand at all was Emily Gresenski,

2253
01:48:13,880 --> 01:48:15,880
Speaker 5: and this was not her first time on the witness

2254
01:48:15,880 --> 01:48:18,720
Speaker 5: stand in that courtroom. She also testified against Christopher can't

2255
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:21,519
Speaker 5: well for pepper spraying her that night, and she handled

2256
01:48:21,520 --> 01:48:26,440
Speaker 5: it well, she's testified before. She's good at it, unshakable.

2257
01:48:27,439 --> 01:48:30,240
Speaker 5: But a witness can only answer the questions they're asked.

2258
01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:33,880
Speaker 5: A witness can't put on their own evidence. A witness

2259
01:48:33,920 --> 01:48:37,400
Speaker 5: can't tell you a story. A witness can't do anything

2260
01:48:37,479 --> 01:48:42,599
Speaker 5: other than give short answers to questions. Right, So even

2261
01:48:42,600 --> 01:48:45,400
Speaker 5: the best witness is only as good as the questions

2262
01:48:45,400 --> 01:48:48,200
Speaker 5: they're asked. And they failed to elicit from her the

2263
01:48:48,240 --> 01:48:51,720
Speaker 5: most important part of the story what actually happened at

2264
01:48:51,720 --> 01:48:54,519
Speaker 5: the statue. So a lot of the evidence they put

2265
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:57,559
Speaker 5: on with her on this I don't want to get

2266
01:48:57,560 --> 01:49:00,760
Speaker 5: too law in order about this, right, but you can't

2267
01:49:00,840 --> 01:49:02,640
Speaker 5: just put on evidence, right, you have to have a

2268
01:49:02,680 --> 01:49:05,559
Speaker 5: witness on the stand to testify to it. You can't

2269
01:49:05,600 --> 01:49:06,280
Speaker 5: just show stuff.

2270
01:49:06,560 --> 01:49:09,960
Speaker 2: It's not a conversation, Like somebody can't just like raise

2271
01:49:10,000 --> 01:49:11,280
Speaker 2: their hand in the middle of this and be like,

2272
01:49:11,320 --> 01:49:13,200
Speaker 2: well I got actually I actually did get hurt at

2273
01:49:13,240 --> 01:49:15,240
Speaker 2: that thing. Like, that's not the way court cases were.

2274
01:49:15,520 --> 01:49:17,400
Speaker 5: And so they used much of Emily's time on the

2275
01:49:17,439 --> 01:49:20,479
Speaker 5: stand to show two videos. One was a video she shot,

2276
01:49:20,520 --> 01:49:22,559
Speaker 5: so it makes sense to have her testify to this

2277
01:49:22,680 --> 01:49:25,400
Speaker 5: video that she recorded, right. So she was live streaming

2278
01:49:25,880 --> 01:49:28,200
Speaker 5: from the very beginning right down where they were preparing

2279
01:49:28,240 --> 01:49:30,080
Speaker 5: and lighting the torches, and then she was following them

2280
01:49:30,080 --> 01:49:34,000
Speaker 5: along on the march, just sort of documenting what was occurring.

2281
01:49:34,320 --> 01:49:36,000
Speaker 5: And that's what she thought she was there to do, right,

2282
01:49:36,000 --> 01:49:39,080
Speaker 5: She's just documenting that this march is taking place. She's thinking, Oh,

2283
01:49:39,080 --> 01:49:41,120
Speaker 5: they're going to give some speeches. I'll record the speeches

2284
01:49:41,160 --> 01:49:43,559
Speaker 5: so people can sort of see what this event was about.

2285
01:49:44,000 --> 01:49:48,479
Speaker 5: She did not go there intending to become trapped and assaulted, right,

2286
01:49:48,520 --> 01:49:51,040
Speaker 5: So much of her time on the stand was sort

2287
01:49:51,040 --> 01:49:54,080
Speaker 5: of answering questions about this video as it played, But

2288
01:49:54,120 --> 01:49:57,439
Speaker 5: they also had her answer questions about a video that

2289
01:49:57,520 --> 01:50:00,439
Speaker 5: was recorded from inside the march, and I'm not I'm

2290
01:50:00,439 --> 01:50:02,639
Speaker 5: not sure how effective it was to just show thirty

2291
01:50:02,720 --> 01:50:06,960
Speaker 5: minutes of video of guys walking, and the defense leaned

2292
01:50:07,000 --> 01:50:11,120
Speaker 5: really heavily into the idea that, well, obviously she wasn't scared.

2293
01:50:11,680 --> 01:50:14,800
Speaker 5: Look at her, right, So she's clearly not intimidated. She's

2294
01:50:14,920 --> 01:50:18,120
Speaker 5: really close to this march recording it. And without a

2295
01:50:18,200 --> 01:50:21,160
Speaker 5: concrete theory of the case that establishes that, well, no,

2296
01:50:21,280 --> 01:50:24,080
Speaker 5: this isn't where the crime is happening, right these guys

2297
01:50:24,120 --> 01:50:27,479
Speaker 5: walking isn't the crime. She's not intimidated yet, that's that's

2298
01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:30,360
Speaker 5: not happening right now. So without that sort of concrete

2299
01:50:30,400 --> 01:50:34,920
Speaker 5: explanation for the jury that the crime occurs at the end,

2300
01:50:36,280 --> 01:50:38,240
Speaker 5: they might take away from that that will, oh, yeah,

2301
01:50:38,240 --> 01:50:41,200
Speaker 5: she doesn't really seem scared here, right, that this whole

2302
01:50:41,240 --> 01:50:44,040
Speaker 5: part where she's walking and narrating, she doesn't really seem scared.

2303
01:50:44,760 --> 01:50:48,479
Speaker 5: And leaving aside the finer philosophical point that you can

2304
01:50:48,560 --> 01:50:52,800
Speaker 5: be brave even if you're scared. Her testimony was really

2305
01:50:52,800 --> 01:50:56,920
Speaker 5: clear here she wasn't afraid for her life. Then she

2306
01:50:57,000 --> 01:50:59,559
Speaker 5: testified that she arrived at the plaza where the statue

2307
01:50:59,600 --> 01:51:02,240
Speaker 5: stands before the marchers did. Right, So they are marching

2308
01:51:02,320 --> 01:51:04,960
Speaker 5: through UVA grounds and it ends in this sort of

2309
01:51:05,040 --> 01:51:07,599
Speaker 5: plaza out in front of the rotunda where a statue is,

2310
01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:11,000
Speaker 5: and she got there before the march did, and she

2311
01:51:11,040 --> 01:51:13,439
Speaker 5: saw that the group of counter protesters was very small,

2312
01:51:14,720 --> 01:51:16,680
Speaker 5: and she knew what was coming, right. She watched these

2313
01:51:16,680 --> 01:51:18,799
Speaker 5: guys get ready. She watched them put on their helmets

2314
01:51:18,800 --> 01:51:21,759
Speaker 5: and their weighted gloves and their brass knuckles and lighting

2315
01:51:21,760 --> 01:51:23,840
Speaker 5: their torches, and you guys are wrapping their hands like

2316
01:51:23,840 --> 01:51:26,960
Speaker 5: they're getting ready for an mma fight. So she knows

2317
01:51:26,960 --> 01:51:30,640
Speaker 5: what's coming and they don't. And so she looks at

2318
01:51:30,640 --> 01:51:33,679
Speaker 5: this small group of young people and she's afraid for them.

2319
01:51:34,320 --> 01:51:36,920
Speaker 5: She's afraid for their safety. She feels a duty to

2320
01:51:37,040 --> 01:51:41,080
Speaker 5: these people. They're mostly college students, and because you can

2321
01:51:41,200 --> 01:51:44,559
Speaker 5: be brave even if you are scared, she stayed with them,

2322
01:51:45,960 --> 01:51:49,000
Speaker 5: and once they were surrounded by this increasingly violent mob.

2323
01:51:49,080 --> 01:51:53,400
Speaker 5: Once she was live streaming her own assault. Of course

2324
01:51:53,439 --> 01:51:56,760
Speaker 5: she was in fear of bodily harm. She was being harmed, right,

2325
01:51:56,760 --> 01:51:59,040
Speaker 5: There's not a debate about whether someone might be in

2326
01:51:59,080 --> 01:52:01,920
Speaker 5: fear of bodily harm. You're watching them get harmed.

2327
01:52:04,040 --> 01:52:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you aren't scared of that, then it

2328
01:52:09,360 --> 01:52:13,839
Speaker 2: doesn't like that. That's I guess kind of the problem.

2329
01:52:14,280 --> 01:52:18,120
Speaker 2: It should be like, would an average like a normal

2330
01:52:18,160 --> 01:52:21,320
Speaker 2: person consider this to be an objectively threatening situation?

2331
01:52:21,640 --> 01:52:23,559
Speaker 4: And that is the standard.

2332
01:52:23,640 --> 01:52:26,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is not a crime that actually requires a

2333
01:52:26,400 --> 01:52:30,320
Speaker 5: complaining victim to say I did feel this way. It's

2334
01:52:30,320 --> 01:52:32,960
Speaker 5: a really it's what's called a reasonable person standard. Right,

2335
01:52:33,000 --> 01:52:36,320
Speaker 5: So what a reasonable person in this situation feel this way?

2336
01:52:36,320 --> 01:52:41,120
Speaker 5: The answer is yes, okay, a reasonable person would be afraid,

2337
01:52:41,400 --> 01:52:42,759
Speaker 5: afraid of getting hit in the face.

2338
01:52:43,680 --> 01:52:44,800
Speaker 2: Yes, I would say so.

2339
01:52:44,920 --> 01:52:46,880
Speaker 5: And there was a lot of argument pre trial in

2340
01:52:46,920 --> 01:52:48,599
Speaker 5: this case and some of the others that like, well,

2341
01:52:48,640 --> 01:52:50,160
Speaker 5: you know, what does that even mean? What does it

2342
01:52:50,240 --> 01:52:52,800
Speaker 5: mean for a reasonable person to be afraid? I mean,

2343
01:52:53,640 --> 01:52:57,000
Speaker 5: that is a valid philosophical conversation, but it is not

2344
01:52:57,200 --> 01:53:00,679
Speaker 5: a valid rebuttal to the idea of this charge, because

2345
01:53:00,720 --> 01:53:03,519
Speaker 5: that is the standard for many of the of the

2346
01:53:03,560 --> 01:53:06,040
Speaker 5: statutes in our code, right, that like it. It's the

2347
01:53:06,080 --> 01:53:07,320
Speaker 5: legal standard for assault.

2348
01:53:08,360 --> 01:53:08,559
Speaker 2: Right.

2349
01:53:09,320 --> 01:53:11,400
Speaker 5: But again, much of the time she's on the stand,

2350
01:53:11,840 --> 01:53:15,720
Speaker 5: they're just showing thirty minutes of people walking, and there

2351
01:53:15,800 --> 01:53:19,040
Speaker 5: was so little time spent showing what happened when they

2352
01:53:19,080 --> 01:53:22,160
Speaker 5: got there. They could have shown the jury the moment

2353
01:53:22,200 --> 01:53:24,439
Speaker 5: of the video where at the top of the steps

2354
01:53:24,439 --> 01:53:26,400
Speaker 5: to the rotunda, right, So they're at the top of

2355
01:53:26,439 --> 01:53:29,760
Speaker 5: these stairs looking down at that plaza below, and these

2356
01:53:29,800 --> 01:53:32,200
Speaker 5: counter protesters are just coming into view to the for

2357
01:53:32,240 --> 01:53:37,120
Speaker 5: the first time for the marchers, and Daniel Borden looks

2358
01:53:37,160 --> 01:53:41,280
Speaker 5: down and sees them and yells, you're out numbered, Antifa,

2359
01:53:42,000 --> 01:53:45,320
Speaker 5: watch out, leftists, scum. And now it matters that that's

2360
01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:49,160
Speaker 5: Daniel Borton because Daniel Borden was with Jacob Dix. They

2361
01:53:49,160 --> 01:53:52,840
Speaker 5: came together their friends from back home in Ohio. Daniel

2362
01:53:52,840 --> 01:53:55,519
Speaker 5: bordon is a name you might remember because the following

2363
01:53:55,600 --> 01:53:57,920
Speaker 5: day he nearly beat a young black man to death.

2364
01:53:58,439 --> 01:54:01,040
Speaker 5: So you know, he's looking down into the plaza and

2365
01:54:01,120 --> 01:54:04,320
Speaker 5: seeing these people and stating the intent, right, He's saying, like,

2366
01:54:04,479 --> 01:54:06,679
Speaker 5: you know, watch out, like I see you. There's more

2367
01:54:06,720 --> 01:54:09,320
Speaker 5: of us than there are of you. You better watch out.

2368
01:54:09,840 --> 01:54:13,040
Speaker 5: That is intimidation, right, Yeah.

2369
01:54:13,160 --> 01:54:16,320
Speaker 2: Seems like it. If I'm the judge, the case has

2370
01:54:16,360 --> 01:54:17,760
Speaker 2: been made.

2371
01:54:17,920 --> 01:54:20,280
Speaker 5: But they did not. I'm not though they didn't highlight

2372
01:54:20,320 --> 01:54:23,880
Speaker 5: this portion of the video. They just this long, uninterrupted

2373
01:54:23,880 --> 01:54:27,120
Speaker 5: presentation of video evidence without any sort of discussion of

2374
01:54:27,800 --> 01:54:30,880
Speaker 5: what any of these moments meant. Because moments after that,

2375
01:54:31,000 --> 01:54:34,760
Speaker 5: after Daniel Borden yells you're outnumbered Antifa, he shouldered a

2376
01:54:34,800 --> 01:54:38,480
Speaker 5: shoulder with Dix. A few seconds later, they're walking clockwise

2377
01:54:38,480 --> 01:54:41,640
Speaker 5: around the statue. They're starting to form that circle, that

2378
01:54:41,760 --> 01:54:45,000
Speaker 5: ring that would trap the counter protesters in. Borden looks

2379
01:54:45,040 --> 01:54:48,320
Speaker 5: at Dix again and says, why can't we confront them?

2380
01:54:48,600 --> 01:54:51,400
Speaker 5: And then they continue to walk side by side, taking

2381
01:54:51,400 --> 01:54:54,040
Speaker 5: their place in that ring of men closing off any

2382
01:54:54,080 --> 01:54:57,880
Speaker 5: path to safety. And you can see in photos that

2383
01:54:58,000 --> 01:55:00,520
Speaker 5: Jacob Dix is face to face with some of the

2384
01:55:00,520 --> 01:55:03,320
Speaker 5: counter protesters. He's not just in this sort of mob

2385
01:55:03,360 --> 01:55:06,160
Speaker 5: of people, in this sort of nebulous zone. He's in

2386
01:55:06,200 --> 01:55:10,120
Speaker 5: the inner ring of people who are choosing to physically

2387
01:55:10,280 --> 01:55:14,840
Speaker 5: trap the counter protesters. That is the intent that they

2388
01:55:14,880 --> 01:55:18,560
Speaker 5: needed to show the jury, and they didn't rebut the

2389
01:55:18,640 --> 01:55:22,720
Speaker 5: conjecture that he was only here because he loves Confederate statues, right,

2390
01:55:22,760 --> 01:55:25,240
Speaker 5: he has Confederate heritage. He cares about the monuments.

2391
01:55:25,320 --> 01:55:30,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is like prosecuting a drunk driver and having

2392
01:55:31,240 --> 01:55:35,760
Speaker 2: having a breathalyzer test and just not introducing it into evidence,

2393
01:55:35,800 --> 01:55:37,880
Speaker 2: being like, nah, I'm just going to be like, you know,

2394
01:55:38,160 --> 01:55:41,200
Speaker 2: vibes wise, it seems like he was probably drinking. Yeah,

2395
01:55:41,320 --> 01:55:43,760
Speaker 2: that's what it was. It was so irresponsible.

2396
01:55:44,520 --> 01:55:47,000
Speaker 5: The vibes were bad, and they were the vibes were bad,

2397
01:55:47,000 --> 01:55:48,360
Speaker 5: but that's not the legal standard.

2398
01:55:48,440 --> 01:55:50,880
Speaker 2: Vibes are terrible, but that's really not what you should be.

2399
01:55:51,360 --> 01:55:53,640
Speaker 2: You have a much better case to make based on

2400
01:55:53,680 --> 01:55:55,640
Speaker 2: the evidence easily available to you.

2401
01:55:56,280 --> 01:55:58,880
Speaker 5: If there was if none of this evidence existed, if

2402
01:55:58,880 --> 01:56:02,240
Speaker 5: this was all they had, maybe don't take it to trial.

2403
01:56:02,880 --> 01:56:05,880
Speaker 5: But this evidence was right there for them, the moment,

2404
01:56:05,960 --> 01:56:08,000
Speaker 5: the moment where they're looking down the steps that's in

2405
01:56:08,040 --> 01:56:09,000
Speaker 5: the video they played.

2406
01:56:10,000 --> 01:56:12,320
Speaker 2: I feel like there were at least six different people

2407
01:56:12,360 --> 01:56:15,600
Speaker 2: the prosecutor could have just like emailed and they would

2408
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:18,440
Speaker 2: have basically put together the whole case for this person.

2409
01:56:19,200 --> 01:56:22,920
Speaker 5: It's just so available, right, you know. So the defense says, well,

2410
01:56:22,960 --> 01:56:24,760
Speaker 5: you know, he has Confederate heritage. You see here because

2411
01:56:24,800 --> 01:56:28,440
Speaker 5: of the statues. They could have rebutted that by showing

2412
01:56:28,480 --> 01:56:31,200
Speaker 5: the jury his discord posts where he was helping organize

2413
01:56:31,280 --> 01:56:34,720
Speaker 5: housing for at least eighty other Unite the Right attendees

2414
01:56:35,040 --> 01:56:38,200
Speaker 5: at a group of airbnbs which he called the Eagles

2415
01:56:38,280 --> 01:56:41,040
Speaker 5: Nest and from which he was helping organize rides to

2416
01:56:41,080 --> 01:56:44,640
Speaker 5: the rally in what they were calling Nazi uber. That's

2417
01:56:44,640 --> 01:56:48,440
Speaker 5: not about your Confederate heritage, is it. The Eagle's Nest

2418
01:56:48,480 --> 01:56:51,040
Speaker 5: was like Hitler's vacation house for people who aren't up

2419
01:56:51,040 --> 01:56:52,560
Speaker 5: on their their Hitler lore.

2420
01:56:54,280 --> 01:56:57,920
Speaker 2: Yeah they're hit Lore. If you will, they're hit Lore.

2421
01:56:58,120 --> 01:56:58,560
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2422
01:56:58,880 --> 01:57:01,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not proud of it, but that happened.

2423
01:57:01,920 --> 01:57:04,360
Speaker 5: That took me out for a second. And they didn't

2424
01:57:04,360 --> 01:57:07,839
Speaker 5: show him attending the Nazi rally in Pikeville in April

2425
01:57:07,880 --> 01:57:10,280
Speaker 5: of that same year. There was a photograph of him

2426
01:57:10,280 --> 01:57:13,080
Speaker 5: standing shoulder to shoulder with members of the Traditionalist Worker

2427
01:57:13,120 --> 01:57:18,000
Speaker 5: Party right arm extended a forty five degree angle, palm down.

2428
01:57:18,280 --> 01:57:21,920
Speaker 5: I think that says something about why he was there, right,

2429
01:57:23,120 --> 01:57:25,200
Speaker 5: And they didn't show his discord post about how he

2430
01:57:25,320 --> 01:57:29,040
Speaker 5: was getting really hyped about the rally, writing nothing can

2431
01:57:29,080 --> 01:57:32,920
Speaker 5: replace the feeling you get at a white nationalist rally.

2432
01:57:33,600 --> 01:57:36,800
Speaker 5: I don't know the evidence exists, right, and once you

2433
01:57:36,880 --> 01:57:40,160
Speaker 5: get to the base of the statue, that intimidation element

2434
01:57:40,240 --> 01:57:43,800
Speaker 5: required for the charge is clear. We know people were

2435
01:57:43,840 --> 01:57:47,280
Speaker 5: in reasonable fear of bodily harm because their bodies were harmed.

2436
01:57:47,680 --> 01:57:50,560
Speaker 5: The evidence of intent is not hard to find. The

2437
01:57:50,600 --> 01:57:53,320
Speaker 5: marchers saw the small group of counter protesters as they

2438
01:57:53,360 --> 01:57:56,240
Speaker 5: descended those stairs. They saw them from above, and they

2439
01:57:56,400 --> 01:58:00,920
Speaker 5: chose to proceed and surround them, Knowing they va outnumbered them.

2440
01:58:01,440 --> 01:58:05,400
Speaker 5: They hooted and cheered, screaming We're coming for you. As

2441
01:58:05,440 --> 01:58:10,280
Speaker 5: they encircled the statue. There were assigned marshals for the march,

2442
01:58:10,520 --> 01:58:15,440
Speaker 5: directing people in a clockwise fashion around the statue to

2443
01:58:15,560 --> 01:58:19,760
Speaker 5: form the circle. This was not an organic event, and

2444
01:58:19,840 --> 01:58:23,839
Speaker 5: as the ring closed, Richard Spencer's bodyguard, a now former Woburn,

2445
01:58:23,880 --> 01:58:27,200
Speaker 5: Massachusetts police officer, John Donnelly, can be heard in one

2446
01:58:27,320 --> 01:58:30,440
Speaker 5: video saying that we need to fill in over here

2447
01:58:30,560 --> 01:58:35,600
Speaker 5: to block these guys off. This was an intentional act.

2448
01:58:36,120 --> 01:58:38,680
Speaker 5: The defendant himself is visible in these videos as he

2449
01:58:38,680 --> 01:58:41,800
Speaker 5: moves down the steps, across the plaza and winds his

2450
01:58:41,840 --> 01:58:44,760
Speaker 5: way around the statue, and as the fighting breaks out,

2451
01:58:45,000 --> 01:58:47,640
Speaker 5: he holds his position in the inner ring of torch

2452
01:58:47,680 --> 01:58:53,240
Speaker 5: bearers who have these people trapped, unable to escape the violence.

2453
01:58:53,280 --> 01:58:56,040
Speaker 5: It doesn't matter that he did not commit these acts

2454
01:58:56,040 --> 01:58:59,480
Speaker 5: of violence. He was holding the line that trapped people

2455
01:58:59,520 --> 01:59:03,800
Speaker 5: inside of it, and his intent in that moment is inescapable.

2456
01:59:05,280 --> 01:59:09,760
Speaker 5: But the jury doesn't know that. It's just an incredible failure.

2457
01:59:09,920 --> 01:59:13,920
Speaker 2: Honestly, Yeah, yeah, I'm glad the case got thrown out.

2458
01:59:14,040 --> 01:59:17,280
Speaker 2: Is it possible that the next person to be prosecutor

2459
01:59:17,320 --> 01:59:22,040
Speaker 2: in this will have an IQ that rises above room temperature?

2460
01:59:23,040 --> 01:59:27,640
Speaker 5: So I asked several lawyers about some of the finer

2461
01:59:27,680 --> 01:59:30,120
Speaker 5: points of what happens with the mistrial, and I got

2462
01:59:30,160 --> 01:59:33,520
Speaker 5: different answers from all of them, because this is sort

2463
01:59:33,560 --> 01:59:35,880
Speaker 5: of like everything in this case is just a little

2464
01:59:35,920 --> 01:59:36,520
Speaker 5: bit fucked up.

2465
01:59:36,560 --> 01:59:36,680
Speaker 2: Right.

2466
01:59:36,720 --> 01:59:39,400
Speaker 5: We have a substitute judge, we have a special prosecutor,

2467
01:59:39,400 --> 01:59:42,680
Speaker 5: we have a mistrial. We've just like so many things

2468
01:59:42,680 --> 01:59:45,160
Speaker 5: that kind of mess it up a little bit. In

2469
01:59:45,200 --> 01:59:48,280
Speaker 5: the event of a mistrial, the prosecutor has the option

2470
01:59:48,400 --> 01:59:50,600
Speaker 5: to try the case again, Right, That's always the case.

2471
01:59:50,640 --> 01:59:53,480
Speaker 5: There's a mistrial, the prosecutor can say, eh, I'm gonna

2472
01:59:53,560 --> 01:59:56,240
Speaker 5: let it go. I'm just gonna let it go, or

2473
01:59:56,280 --> 01:59:58,000
Speaker 5: they can say no, we're gonna bring it again. We're

2474
01:59:58,040 --> 01:59:59,640
Speaker 5: gonna bring it again, and they don't have to bring

2475
01:59:59,640 --> 02:00:01,480
Speaker 5: it the same way. They can bring in different evidence,

2476
02:00:01,520 --> 02:00:05,160
Speaker 5: different witnesses. It's sort of a mulligan for everybody. Right

2477
02:00:05,720 --> 02:00:08,520
Speaker 5: what's not one hundred percent clear is whether the same

2478
02:00:08,640 --> 02:00:11,520
Speaker 5: special prosecutor tries it again or if it sort of

2479
02:00:11,560 --> 02:00:14,440
Speaker 5: goes back to Roulette. Several lawyers agreed that it would

2480
02:00:14,480 --> 02:00:18,600
Speaker 5: be the same prosecutor. I believe her office is under

2481
02:00:18,600 --> 02:00:22,400
Speaker 5: that impression. So right after the mistrial was declared, Shannon Taylor,

2482
02:00:22,440 --> 02:00:25,240
Speaker 5: the special prosecutor, said she does plan to try it again.

2483
02:00:25,640 --> 02:00:29,040
Speaker 5: That could just be bravado. It's unclear. There's a hearing

2484
02:00:29,120 --> 02:00:31,839
Speaker 5: date set for August for there's still some pending motions

2485
02:00:31,840 --> 02:00:35,680
Speaker 5: in the case, and so the funniest part is is

2486
02:00:35,720 --> 02:00:38,480
Speaker 5: that there's still a pending motion to dismiss from the defense.

2487
02:00:38,960 --> 02:00:42,080
Speaker 5: So technically, even if the prosecutor says, yes, I'm bringing

2488
02:00:42,080 --> 02:00:45,160
Speaker 5: this case again, I'm doing it, the judge could be like, actually,

2489
02:00:45,160 --> 02:00:47,720
Speaker 5: I'm dismissing it. So it could go a lot of

2490
02:00:47,720 --> 02:00:50,800
Speaker 5: ways right now, but at this point I'm not super

2491
02:00:50,880 --> 02:00:55,200
Speaker 5: hung up on the particularities of this defendant, right, I

2492
02:00:55,200 --> 02:00:58,080
Speaker 5: think this mistrial teaches us something sort of more generally

2493
02:00:58,120 --> 02:01:01,720
Speaker 5: about these cases and the other torch cases specifically obviously,

2494
02:01:02,400 --> 02:01:04,760
Speaker 5: but I think more generally, what does it look like

2495
02:01:04,880 --> 02:01:07,880
Speaker 5: for criminal charges to be a roadblock in the path

2496
02:01:07,920 --> 02:01:10,960
Speaker 5: of people involved in white supremacists organizing? You know, at

2497
02:01:10,960 --> 02:01:12,480
Speaker 5: the end of the day, whether or not some guy

2498
02:01:12,480 --> 02:01:15,080
Speaker 5: from Ohio serves four months of a six month sentence

2499
02:01:15,080 --> 02:01:17,840
Speaker 5: on a classic felony, it doesn't really matter, right, Like,

2500
02:01:17,880 --> 02:01:20,520
Speaker 5: this isn't this isn't an important.

2501
02:01:20,200 --> 02:01:23,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's whether or not anyone is actually scared off

2502
02:01:23,960 --> 02:01:26,080
Speaker 2: from organizing.

2503
02:01:26,040 --> 02:01:28,440
Speaker 5: Right, Like not to use the language of the prosecutor.

2504
02:01:28,880 --> 02:01:30,720
Speaker 5: You know, the master's house, the master's tools, this, that,

2505
02:01:30,760 --> 02:01:31,160
Speaker 5: and the other.

2506
02:01:31,560 --> 02:01:35,560
Speaker 2: But part of part of cotton to that logic, right,

2507
02:01:35,640 --> 02:01:36,040
Speaker 2: be honest.

2508
02:01:36,080 --> 02:01:37,960
Speaker 5: I mean he used those tools for a reason, right.

2509
02:01:38,320 --> 02:01:40,960
Speaker 2: But yeah, he used those tools for a reason. Like

2510
02:01:41,000 --> 02:01:43,200
Speaker 2: if you couldn't bring down the master's house with the

2511
02:01:43,240 --> 02:01:46,000
Speaker 2: master's tools, then what were all of those formerly t

2512
02:01:46,000 --> 02:01:50,480
Speaker 2: Czarist troops doing overthrowing the government with rifles the czar

2513
02:01:50,600 --> 02:01:51,040
Speaker 2: gave them?

2514
02:01:51,360 --> 02:01:51,600
Speaker 1: You know.

2515
02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:53,880
Speaker 5: But you know, part of what prosecutors talk about when

2516
02:01:53,880 --> 02:01:56,879
Speaker 5: they talk about charging, Maybe not these cases in particular,

2517
02:01:56,920 --> 02:02:00,680
Speaker 5: but just generally speaking, is that bringing cases is intended

2518
02:02:00,720 --> 02:02:04,000
Speaker 5: as a form of deterrence for everybody, right, that what

2519
02:02:04,080 --> 02:02:06,440
Speaker 5: happens to this guy is not the most important. But

2520
02:02:06,520 --> 02:02:10,320
Speaker 5: maybe some other guys see this and think, maybe that's

2521
02:02:10,360 --> 02:02:12,280
Speaker 5: not a good idea. And so I think in some

2522
02:02:12,360 --> 02:02:15,360
Speaker 5: of these cases, though, you can see, you know, maybe

2523
02:02:15,400 --> 02:02:19,760
Speaker 5: that this charge is interrupting a more significant pattern of behavior. Right,

2524
02:02:19,800 --> 02:02:23,400
Speaker 5: So nailing Thomas Rousseau on a felony would obviously change

2525
02:02:23,480 --> 02:02:25,760
Speaker 5: the trajectory for Patriot Front. I don't know if that

2526
02:02:25,800 --> 02:02:28,800
Speaker 5: would I don't know what that looks like at the end,

2527
02:02:28,840 --> 02:02:32,280
Speaker 5: but it certainly changes the trajectory. So Thomas Rousseau is

2528
02:02:32,280 --> 02:02:35,200
Speaker 5: set for trial in the fall. So he has been charged,

2529
02:02:35,240 --> 02:02:36,920
Speaker 5: and I think that will be an interesting case to

2530
02:02:36,920 --> 02:02:39,600
Speaker 5: follow because he has the same lawyer. And you know,

2531
02:02:39,640 --> 02:02:42,080
Speaker 5: if they end up charging Jason Kessler, that would just

2532
02:02:42,160 --> 02:02:44,720
Speaker 5: be really funny. You know, there's a lot of possible

2533
02:02:44,760 --> 02:02:47,760
Speaker 5: outcomes here. If they'd arrested these guys in real time

2534
02:02:48,000 --> 02:02:50,760
Speaker 5: that night, maybe the rally the next day would be different.

2535
02:02:51,240 --> 02:02:53,960
Speaker 5: If the cases had been brought six years ago. You know,

2536
02:02:54,040 --> 02:02:56,480
Speaker 5: maybe certain arcs of history would have bent differently. It

2537
02:02:56,520 --> 02:03:00,000
Speaker 5: would have broken some momentum, or discouraged some movement activity,

2538
02:03:00,120 --> 02:03:03,520
Speaker 5: or broken bonds between people who met there. Some of

2539
02:03:03,560 --> 02:03:06,160
Speaker 5: the guys who were there and could have been charged

2540
02:03:06,160 --> 02:03:08,320
Speaker 5: in real time went on to do some real damage

2541
02:03:08,320 --> 02:03:11,200
Speaker 5: in their personal lives and their communities. But I'm not

2542
02:03:11,200 --> 02:03:13,920
Speaker 5: sure that's a basket I want to put my eggs into. Right,

2543
02:03:14,600 --> 02:03:18,680
Speaker 5: if a court case takes a fascist out of the game, right, right,

2544
02:03:18,720 --> 02:03:21,840
Speaker 5: that's some kind of harm reduction, But it's not something

2545
02:03:21,840 --> 02:03:25,320
Speaker 5: you could count on, and honestly, it doesn't consistently reduce

2546
02:03:25,360 --> 02:03:28,600
Speaker 5: harm in the long run. You just can't get lost

2547
02:03:28,600 --> 02:03:30,560
Speaker 5: in the sort of what ifs of you know, what

2548
02:03:30,600 --> 02:03:33,480
Speaker 5: if the system worked better to actually help us, because

2549
02:03:33,480 --> 02:03:36,200
Speaker 5: it doesn't. That was never on the table. It's not

2550
02:03:36,240 --> 02:03:38,120
Speaker 5: like I'm saying, you know, well, we needed a conviction

2551
02:03:38,200 --> 02:03:40,240
Speaker 5: in this case because the courts are the ones who

2552
02:03:40,240 --> 02:03:43,280
Speaker 5: are going to protect us by putting this man in jail. Briefly, right,

2553
02:03:43,320 --> 02:03:46,080
Speaker 5: That's that's not the case. I think the lessons are

2554
02:03:46,120 --> 02:03:49,480
Speaker 5: immediately instructive to the prosecutor who tries the next one. Obviously,

2555
02:03:49,760 --> 02:03:52,000
Speaker 5: you know, watching the game tapes play better next time.

2556
02:03:52,560 --> 02:03:54,120
Speaker 5: You know, if they're going to put these cases on,

2557
02:03:54,320 --> 02:03:56,680
Speaker 5: they need to do it properly. I would rather see

2558
02:03:56,720 --> 02:03:59,360
Speaker 5: this not happen at all than watch it get fumbled

2559
02:03:59,440 --> 02:04:01,680
Speaker 5: like this, because that's just a victory for.

2560
02:04:01,720 --> 02:04:02,600
Speaker 2: Them, right right.

2561
02:04:03,080 --> 02:04:06,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it's a sharp reminder that the courts are

2562
02:04:06,520 --> 02:04:10,680
Speaker 5: not equipped to interrupt fascism or rein in white supremacy.

2563
02:04:10,720 --> 02:04:12,520
Speaker 5: That is not what they were built for. That it's

2564
02:04:12,560 --> 02:04:16,400
Speaker 5: not what this tool does. You are trying to screw

2565
02:04:16,400 --> 02:04:19,280
Speaker 5: it in with a hammer, because faced with a really

2566
02:04:19,360 --> 02:04:23,360
Speaker 5: clear opportunity to do that, the prosecutor shied away from them.

2567
02:04:23,440 --> 02:04:25,360
Speaker 5: You know, the state is not the secret weapon that

2568
02:04:25,440 --> 02:04:27,960
Speaker 5: is going to stop fascism for us or protect us

2569
02:04:27,960 --> 02:04:30,320
Speaker 5: from the fascists who want to stop us from stopping them.

2570
02:04:30,360 --> 02:04:33,560
Speaker 5: You know, at best, it is a banana peel on

2571
02:04:33,600 --> 02:04:37,560
Speaker 5: their Mario Kart track. You know, it is interesting to

2572
02:04:37,560 --> 02:04:39,520
Speaker 5: watch this play out, but I don't think it is

2573
02:04:39,560 --> 02:04:45,200
Speaker 5: some I don't think this will bring any sort of repair. Yeah,

2574
02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:47,400
Speaker 5: but it might ruin some guy's day, and I'll be

2575
02:04:47,440 --> 02:04:48,280
Speaker 5: there when it happens.

2576
02:04:49,160 --> 02:04:52,440
Speaker 2: I you know, I don't think it's worthless obviously. I think,

2577
02:04:52,440 --> 02:04:54,280
Speaker 2: in fact, one of the things I will point out

2578
02:04:54,320 --> 02:04:56,400
Speaker 2: since this is kind of ending on a doomer. And

2579
02:04:56,480 --> 02:05:00,520
Speaker 2: I think the I think the legal one lot that

2580
02:05:00,680 --> 02:05:05,200
Speaker 2: was launched by the survivors shall we say mm hm

2581
02:05:05,520 --> 02:05:09,000
Speaker 2: at Charlottesville against organizers and whatnot is a big part

2582
02:05:09,000 --> 02:05:12,160
Speaker 2: of why a lot of that most of that crew

2583
02:05:12,240 --> 02:05:15,040
Speaker 2: stopped being relevant, Like it did in fact damage them.

2584
02:05:15,080 --> 02:05:17,520
Speaker 2: Now did it disrupt and stop fascism nation?

2585
02:05:17,600 --> 02:05:17,720
Speaker 1: Why?

2586
02:05:17,800 --> 02:05:20,520
Speaker 2: Of course not. That was never in the cards, right,

2587
02:05:20,600 --> 02:05:22,800
Speaker 2: Like you're talking about trends and forces that are too

2588
02:05:22,800 --> 02:05:27,320
Speaker 2: big for a handful of very dedicated leftists to stop

2589
02:05:27,400 --> 02:05:30,360
Speaker 2: by suing some asshole. But like, you know, one thing

2590
02:05:30,400 --> 02:05:32,400
Speaker 2: people get wrong a lot is saying like, oh, you know,

2591
02:05:32,400 --> 02:05:35,680
Speaker 2: when a fucking what's his name got punched, that really

2592
02:05:35,800 --> 02:05:38,280
Speaker 2: uh knocked him out of public life. And it's like, no,

2593
02:05:38,400 --> 02:05:41,960
Speaker 2: Charlottesville came after that fucker got punched, Like it was

2594
02:05:42,040 --> 02:05:45,280
Speaker 2: the series of court cases that ruined his life really

2595
02:05:45,320 --> 02:05:46,000
Speaker 2: to an extent.

2596
02:05:46,480 --> 02:05:48,280
Speaker 5: And I think there's an important conversation to be how

2597
02:05:48,320 --> 02:05:50,840
Speaker 5: about what it means to win, right, Because if you're

2598
02:05:50,920 --> 02:05:53,560
Speaker 5: a lawyer, if you're a prosecutor, winning is really black

2599
02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:56,160
Speaker 5: and white. You you know, win a judgment, you win

2600
02:05:56,200 --> 02:05:59,560
Speaker 5: a conviction, but That's not how I view the courts

2601
02:05:59,600 --> 02:06:01,840
Speaker 5: as a tool in this process. Right That, like winning

2602
02:06:01,880 --> 02:06:04,800
Speaker 5: a conviction or actually getting paid out that judgment, that's

2603
02:06:04,840 --> 02:06:06,600
Speaker 5: not the victory we're looking for, right That, this is

2604
02:06:06,640 --> 02:06:11,000
Speaker 5: a tool for sort of chiseling away, and no single

2605
02:06:11,040 --> 02:06:14,640
Speaker 5: step gets you there. So I wouldn't say that these

2606
02:06:14,720 --> 02:06:17,920
Speaker 5: cases are not useful or they're not interesting. And that's

2607
02:06:18,040 --> 02:06:21,240
Speaker 5: why this isn't a huge disappointment, right that, Like what

2608
02:06:21,360 --> 02:06:25,160
Speaker 5: happens to any of these individual people isn't the point.

2609
02:06:25,720 --> 02:06:26,960
Speaker 5: This is just part of a process.

2610
02:06:28,520 --> 02:06:32,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I don't know, keep that in mind as

2611
02:06:32,920 --> 02:06:34,960
Speaker 2: you look at this stuff, like, because it's very easy

2612
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:37,160
Speaker 2: to look at one case and just be like, oh,

2613
02:06:37,160 --> 02:06:39,920
Speaker 2: it's doomed. There's no point in trying any of this.

2614
02:06:40,040 --> 02:06:42,600
Speaker 2: It's like no. The actual the law fair that people

2615
02:06:42,640 --> 02:06:48,040
Speaker 2: have launched in response to Charlottesville has been a successful action, like,

2616
02:06:48,080 --> 02:06:49,880
Speaker 2: if you want to look at it kind of in

2617
02:06:50,320 --> 02:06:53,080
Speaker 2: military terms, it has been an offensive that has broadly

2618
02:06:53,520 --> 02:06:55,160
Speaker 2: achieved a number of its goals.

2619
02:06:55,480 --> 02:06:58,360
Speaker 5: The Assigns by Kessler lawsuit against the Unite the Right organizers,

2620
02:06:58,720 --> 02:07:01,520
Speaker 5: it's sort of established this playbook that's now being used

2621
02:07:01,560 --> 02:07:05,200
Speaker 5: by others. There are similar similarly structured lawsuits now being

2622
02:07:05,240 --> 02:07:08,160
Speaker 5: filed against other white supremacist groups, against White Lives Matter Ohio,

2623
02:07:08,320 --> 02:07:11,960
Speaker 5: against Patriot Front, and it is effective, and again not

2624
02:07:12,080 --> 02:07:16,160
Speaker 5: in the sense that the lawsuits will extract you know, money, judgments.

2625
02:07:16,760 --> 02:07:18,920
Speaker 2: Well that everyone's going to go to fucking prison, but

2626
02:07:19,040 --> 02:07:21,520
Speaker 2: it makes their lives miserable. Yeah. I just don't want

2627
02:07:21,560 --> 02:07:23,320
Speaker 2: people to walk away being like, well, there's no point

2628
02:07:23,520 --> 02:07:27,320
Speaker 2: in fighting this way, because there actually is. It works

2629
02:07:27,680 --> 02:07:30,080
Speaker 2: very well. It's just not a silver bullet. It's not

2630
02:07:30,120 --> 02:07:34,240
Speaker 2: a sports Ugly and messy and hard. And I will

2631
02:07:34,320 --> 02:07:36,400
Speaker 2: end at least by saying, you know, I know we

2632
02:07:36,480 --> 02:07:39,400
Speaker 2: have a lot of anti electoralist type people here. The

2633
02:07:39,480 --> 02:07:42,000
Speaker 2: one place you absolutely should vote, if that is a

2634
02:07:42,040 --> 02:07:45,760
Speaker 2: thing where you live, is elections for local judges, because

2635
02:07:46,480 --> 02:07:49,120
Speaker 2: that is a great way to at least reduce the

2636
02:07:49,160 --> 02:07:52,160
Speaker 2: odds that your friends go to prison. I know people,

2637
02:07:52,360 --> 02:07:54,800
Speaker 2: I have people I love who are not in prison

2638
02:07:54,920 --> 02:07:57,680
Speaker 2: because the judge they happened to draw wasn't a piece

2639
02:07:57,720 --> 02:08:01,600
Speaker 2: of shit. And you're really, you're really just hurting yourself

2640
02:08:01,680 --> 02:08:03,760
Speaker 2: if you don't, if you have the option to pick

2641
02:08:03,800 --> 02:08:05,720
Speaker 2: a judge who sucks less, and you don't try to

2642
02:08:06,000 --> 02:08:07,560
Speaker 2: that's where I land on that ship.

2643
02:08:08,080 --> 02:08:09,440
Speaker 5: There's a lot that we can do, and none of

2644
02:08:09,440 --> 02:08:12,440
Speaker 5: it's going to do it all. But Yep, in the meantime,

2645
02:08:12,640 --> 02:08:15,960
Speaker 5: I will continue spending whole days on that horrible wooden

2646
02:08:16,000 --> 02:08:18,400
Speaker 5: bench and I'll let you know how it goes.

2647
02:08:19,640 --> 02:08:23,360
Speaker 2: Yep, thank you Molly for continuing to engage with a

2648
02:08:23,440 --> 02:08:25,840
Speaker 2: system that is not very fun to engage with the

2649
02:08:26,120 --> 02:08:30,240
Speaker 2: necessary too. Well, everybody, that's the episode, good to hell,

2650
02:08:30,680 --> 02:08:48,960
Speaker 2: We love you. What's warring my crimes? This is it

2651
02:08:49,040 --> 02:08:53,560
Speaker 2: could happen here a podcast about things falling apart. And

2652
02:08:54,000 --> 02:08:56,520
Speaker 2: you know what all the kids these days you're talking

2653
02:08:56,560 --> 02:09:00,520
Speaker 2: about is war crimes. That was me being kind of liathe,

2654
02:09:00,600 --> 02:09:04,440
Speaker 2: but they actually are because you know what's continuing to

2655
02:09:04,520 --> 02:09:07,960
Speaker 2: happen to Gaza. More people than probably that I can

2656
02:09:08,080 --> 02:09:11,720
Speaker 2: recall in recent memory are talking about like war crimes,

2657
02:09:11,960 --> 02:09:15,480
Speaker 2: what it means to commit war crimes violations of international law,

2658
02:09:16,200 --> 02:09:18,320
Speaker 2: which is good because that's an important thing to be

2659
02:09:18,440 --> 02:09:22,120
Speaker 2: talking about. The downside of it is, as is often

2660
02:09:22,160 --> 02:09:23,800
Speaker 2: the case when people talk about things on the Internet,

2661
02:09:23,840 --> 02:09:25,720
Speaker 2: a lot of people are talking about war crimes and

2662
02:09:25,800 --> 02:09:30,680
Speaker 2: don't actually know what that means. So I figured, let's

2663
02:09:30,720 --> 02:09:34,560
Speaker 2: talk about like what war crimes is be do. And

2664
02:09:34,680 --> 02:09:38,920
Speaker 2: I'm going to bring on James Stout, fellow war crimes watcher,

2665
02:09:39,520 --> 02:09:42,920
Speaker 2: to talk with me about what war crimes be James,

2666
02:09:43,280 --> 02:09:45,160
Speaker 2: what's your favorite war crime?

2667
02:09:45,440 --> 02:09:45,880
Speaker 3: My favorite?

2668
02:09:46,000 --> 02:09:48,919
Speaker 4: That's a difficult one, isn't it because I'm yeah.

2669
02:09:48,800 --> 02:09:50,720
Speaker 2: Because I asked in the best season a doctor who

2670
02:09:50,800 --> 02:09:51,600
Speaker 2: you know it is.

2671
02:09:51,680 --> 02:09:53,680
Speaker 4: Yeah. What I like to do with reference to war

2672
02:09:53,760 --> 02:09:55,480
Speaker 4: crimes is I wake up, right, and I sort of

2673
02:09:55,560 --> 02:09:57,320
Speaker 4: you know, you're just waking up. You get your phone

2674
02:09:57,320 --> 02:09:59,640
Speaker 4: off the charge, you there, and then you look and

2675
02:09:59,680 --> 02:10:02,280
Speaker 4: there's message on telegram. But that's how that's how I

2676
02:10:02,400 --> 02:10:05,480
Speaker 4: consume war crimes, just a random If it's on telegram,

2677
02:10:05,560 --> 02:10:07,800
Speaker 4: there's a forty percent chance it's a violation of the

2678
02:10:08,040 --> 02:10:11,959
Speaker 4: eighteen sixty four Geneva Convention or the subsequent Geneva Conventions.

2679
02:10:12,040 --> 02:10:15,320
Speaker 2: Yes, so I wanted to do this because I do

2680
02:10:15,480 --> 02:10:18,320
Speaker 2: think that one of the things that is unfortunate kind

2681
02:10:18,360 --> 02:10:21,680
Speaker 2: of about the colloquial way in which, like the positive

2682
02:10:21,760 --> 02:10:24,680
Speaker 2: side of the way social media has impacted the coverage

2683
02:10:24,680 --> 02:10:27,280
Speaker 2: of conflicts, is that we are now seeing like for

2684
02:10:27,360 --> 02:10:29,320
Speaker 2: the first time, this is not the first time Israel

2685
02:10:29,360 --> 02:10:31,480
Speaker 2: has killed a shitload of Palestinians. This is the first

2686
02:10:31,520 --> 02:10:34,879
Speaker 2: time that like a really substantial majority of the American

2687
02:10:34,960 --> 02:10:41,200
Speaker 2: populace has been like and that's bad. Yeah, And that

2688
02:10:41,280 --> 02:10:43,400
Speaker 2: owes a lot to the way in which information is

2689
02:10:43,400 --> 02:10:45,280
Speaker 2: spread on social media. One of the downsides of that

2690
02:10:45,600 --> 02:10:49,520
Speaker 2: is because this is happening in kind of a colloquial diction,

2691
02:10:50,640 --> 02:10:54,640
Speaker 2: people are not always super accurate in a term like

2692
02:10:54,760 --> 02:10:57,880
Speaker 2: war crimes in particular, often gets used to mean like

2693
02:10:58,080 --> 02:11:01,000
Speaker 2: anything I don't like that happened in a war. And

2694
02:11:01,080 --> 02:11:03,200
Speaker 2: there are a lot of things that happen like war

2695
02:11:03,400 --> 02:11:06,839
Speaker 2: is bad, and everything that happens in war nearly everything

2696
02:11:07,040 --> 02:11:09,520
Speaker 2: is really bad. But most of the things that happen

2697
02:11:09,600 --> 02:11:12,080
Speaker 2: in war are not war crimes. And I believe me,

2698
02:11:12,080 --> 02:11:14,080
Speaker 2: I'm not setting us up to say that, like Israel

2699
02:11:14,200 --> 02:11:16,560
Speaker 2: is not committing war crimes in Gaza, they are. I

2700
02:11:16,600 --> 02:11:18,720
Speaker 2: actually have a lot of issues with other kinds of

2701
02:11:18,800 --> 02:11:22,160
Speaker 2: conflicts and things that happen in conflicts that get discussed

2702
02:11:22,160 --> 02:11:23,920
Speaker 2: as if they were war crimes that I think Muddy's

2703
02:11:23,960 --> 02:11:25,840
Speaker 2: the issue We're going to be talking trying to make

2704
02:11:25,880 --> 02:11:31,040
Speaker 2: it clear like what international law actually covers and what

2705
02:11:31,520 --> 02:11:34,200
Speaker 2: kind of that coverage means. And all that stuff, so

2706
02:11:34,280 --> 02:11:37,560
Speaker 2: that hopefully, you know, people can have a little bit

2707
02:11:37,600 --> 02:11:40,160
Speaker 2: more information going forward when they try to talk about

2708
02:11:40,280 --> 02:11:42,800
Speaker 2: like is this something that's just bad that happens in

2709
02:11:42,880 --> 02:11:45,680
Speaker 2: war versus is this a war crime, because that actually

2710
02:11:45,760 --> 02:11:49,200
Speaker 2: matters when it comes to, you know, the theoretical idea

2711
02:11:49,360 --> 02:11:52,240
Speaker 2: of a rules based international order in prosecuting this stuff.

2712
02:11:52,360 --> 02:11:54,400
Speaker 2: So the first thing we have to get into is

2713
02:11:54,400 --> 02:11:58,480
Speaker 2: the idea that, like, war crimes are a pretty recent conception.

2714
02:11:58,720 --> 02:12:01,160
Speaker 2: The idea that like there would be a thing that

2715
02:12:01,240 --> 02:12:04,480
Speaker 2: you could do as a country that the international community

2716
02:12:04,520 --> 02:12:07,400
Speaker 2: would come in and have beef with does not go

2717
02:12:07,640 --> 02:12:12,760
Speaker 2: back very far, right, Yeah, we are talking the eighteenth century,

2718
02:12:12,840 --> 02:12:15,440
Speaker 2: So really the last two hundred years has been when

2719
02:12:16,080 --> 02:12:18,920
Speaker 2: this really all started to get codified. We start with

2720
02:12:18,960 --> 02:12:22,320
Speaker 2: the Geneva Convention in eighteen sixty four. There are several

2721
02:12:22,400 --> 02:12:25,480
Speaker 2: Geneva conventions. In nineteen forty nine, there's I think two

2722
02:12:25,560 --> 02:12:28,040
Speaker 2: more in nineteen seventy seven. You also have the Hague

2723
02:12:28,080 --> 02:12:30,920
Speaker 2: Conventions in eighteen ninety nine and nineteen oh seven, and

2724
02:12:31,360 --> 02:12:34,800
Speaker 2: these are all so part of what that should suggest

2725
02:12:34,920 --> 02:12:37,360
Speaker 2: is that like, even within the kind of the realm

2726
02:12:37,400 --> 02:12:39,600
Speaker 2: of codified war crimes law, it's kind of been a

2727
02:12:39,920 --> 02:12:43,800
Speaker 2: slap dash catches catch can a fair right. Like, people

2728
02:12:43,880 --> 02:12:47,840
Speaker 2: have come together and made rules that were largely based

2729
02:12:47,880 --> 02:12:50,240
Speaker 2: on the shit that either had just happened or that

2730
02:12:50,320 --> 02:12:54,240
Speaker 2: they thought was about to happen. And one of the

2731
02:12:54,360 --> 02:12:57,840
Speaker 2: consequences of this is that the actual legislation about like

2732
02:12:57,920 --> 02:13:00,640
Speaker 2: what is and isn't illegal to do in war is

2733
02:13:00,800 --> 02:13:03,760
Speaker 2: really uneven. A great example of this would be the

2734
02:13:04,040 --> 02:13:07,480
Speaker 2: idea of dumb dumb bullets. Right. This is a thing

2735
02:13:07,640 --> 02:13:10,000
Speaker 2: that you get kind of around the turn of the century,

2736
02:13:10,040 --> 02:13:14,000
Speaker 2: which is so bullets, most bullets that are used in

2737
02:13:14,120 --> 02:13:16,680
Speaker 2: war are what are called full metal jacket, right, And

2738
02:13:16,760 --> 02:13:20,000
Speaker 2: that just means that there's a copper generally jacket around

2739
02:13:20,440 --> 02:13:24,080
Speaker 2: the lead bullet and there's not like a hole in

2740
02:13:24,160 --> 02:13:27,000
Speaker 2: the middle or whatever like a modern Like if you

2741
02:13:27,080 --> 02:13:29,000
Speaker 2: go up to a police officer and take his gun,

2742
02:13:29,040 --> 02:13:32,880
Speaker 2: which is very easy and safe to do legally, that

2743
02:13:33,040 --> 02:13:35,400
Speaker 2: was a joke, you will notice that all of the

2744
02:13:35,440 --> 02:13:37,920
Speaker 2: bullets in that gun have like a little divot in

2745
02:13:38,000 --> 02:13:39,800
Speaker 2: the middle of them, right, And the purpose of this

2746
02:13:39,920 --> 02:13:41,880
Speaker 2: divot is so that when the bullet hits a person,

2747
02:13:42,440 --> 02:13:45,400
Speaker 2: it transfers more of its force into the meat of

2748
02:13:45,480 --> 02:13:47,520
Speaker 2: that person's body. This is the same with any bullet

2749
02:13:47,560 --> 02:13:50,760
Speaker 2: that like someone carries for self defense generally, and this

2750
02:13:50,880 --> 02:13:53,400
Speaker 2: is actually a safety device in a way because bullets

2751
02:13:53,440 --> 02:13:55,560
Speaker 2: like this do not penetrate as much. And you don't

2752
02:13:55,640 --> 02:13:58,400
Speaker 2: want bullets that you're using in like an urban area

2753
02:13:58,480 --> 02:14:00,879
Speaker 2: for self defense to penetrate as much because that increases

2754
02:14:00,920 --> 02:14:03,320
Speaker 2: the risk that if you miss or if you hit

2755
02:14:03,440 --> 02:14:05,960
Speaker 2: that person, that it goes through them and hits something else. Right,

2756
02:14:06,400 --> 02:14:08,640
Speaker 2: But there was an understanding around the turn of the

2757
02:14:08,720 --> 02:14:12,839
Speaker 2: century that these bullets, which initially were not manufactured. Soldiers

2758
02:14:12,880 --> 02:14:16,120
Speaker 2: would literally like cut like crosses in the tops of

2759
02:14:16,160 --> 02:14:16,760
Speaker 2: their bullets.

2760
02:14:17,200 --> 02:14:18,760
Speaker 4: I used to do this when I was a child.

2761
02:14:18,880 --> 02:14:21,600
Speaker 4: I would spend a lot of time shooting rabbits. It

2762
02:14:21,680 --> 02:14:22,880
Speaker 4: was kind of my thing that I did when I

2763
02:14:23,040 --> 02:14:24,960
Speaker 4: was a kid, and we used to dumb dumb that

2764
02:14:25,320 --> 02:14:25,880
Speaker 4: rifle pede.

2765
02:14:26,120 --> 02:14:29,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And there's this there was this understanding that

2766
02:14:29,840 --> 02:14:36,400
Speaker 2: developed that this should be illegal because it causes additional harm. Now,

2767
02:14:36,720 --> 02:14:39,680
Speaker 2: the specific I think this is like like line twenty

2768
02:14:39,880 --> 02:14:44,160
Speaker 2: or something from the Geneva Convention. But it's employing weapons,

2769
02:14:44,280 --> 02:14:47,000
Speaker 2: projectiles and material and methods of warfare which are of

2770
02:14:47,040 --> 02:14:50,360
Speaker 2: a nature to cause superfluous injury or a necessary suffering,

2771
02:14:50,480 --> 02:14:53,240
Speaker 2: or which are inherently indiscriminate in violation of the International

2772
02:14:53,320 --> 02:14:56,600
Speaker 2: Law of Armed Conflict. Provided such weapons, projectiles and material

2773
02:14:56,720 --> 02:14:58,520
Speaker 2: and the methods of warfare are the subject of a

2774
02:14:58,560 --> 02:15:02,200
Speaker 2: comprehensive prohibition are included in annex to this statute by

2775
02:15:02,240 --> 02:15:06,160
Speaker 2: an amendment in accordance with the relevant anyway, So you're

2776
02:15:06,200 --> 02:15:09,920
Speaker 2: not supposed to employing employed bullets which quote flatten or

2777
02:15:09,960 --> 02:15:12,320
Speaker 2: expand easily in the human body, such as bullets with

2778
02:15:12,360 --> 02:15:14,560
Speaker 2: the hard envelope which does not entirely cover its core

2779
02:15:14,680 --> 02:15:17,920
Speaker 2: or is pierced with incisions. You're not supposed to employ asphyxiating,

2780
02:15:17,960 --> 02:15:20,920
Speaker 2: poisonous or their gases and all analogous liquids, materials or

2781
02:15:20,960 --> 02:15:24,520
Speaker 2: devices that one obviously came about as a result of

2782
02:15:25,000 --> 02:15:27,920
Speaker 2: the horror in World War One, right, people start using

2783
02:15:27,920 --> 02:15:30,720
Speaker 2: a lot of these poisoned gas weapons, and it's decided

2784
02:15:30,760 --> 02:15:33,360
Speaker 2: by the international community that that absolutely should not be

2785
02:15:33,440 --> 02:15:35,839
Speaker 2: allowed to be done. You're not allowed to employ poison

2786
02:15:35,960 --> 02:15:39,720
Speaker 2: or poisoned weapons. Now, most people can see look at

2787
02:15:39,760 --> 02:15:42,520
Speaker 2: that and be like, well, yeah, I mean, hollow points sound,

2788
02:15:43,080 --> 02:15:46,760
Speaker 2: extramine poison sounds extramine gas sounds extramine. You shouldn't be

2789
02:15:46,800 --> 02:15:49,360
Speaker 2: able to use those extra meine weapons in war. But

2790
02:15:50,040 --> 02:15:52,440
Speaker 2: and I don't have a problem with trying to limit

2791
02:15:52,640 --> 02:15:56,280
Speaker 2: horrifying weapons, But we still allow, for example, artillery shells

2792
02:15:56,320 --> 02:15:59,040
Speaker 2: that are meant to create huge amounts of shrapnel that

2793
02:15:59,160 --> 02:16:01,920
Speaker 2: are their whole purpose is to cause grievous wounds to

2794
02:16:02,280 --> 02:16:05,080
Speaker 2: a large number of people in a large area. And

2795
02:16:05,160 --> 02:16:08,240
Speaker 2: from where I'm standing, I don't think that like that's

2796
02:16:08,960 --> 02:16:11,640
Speaker 2: less horrible than a hollow point. I actually think that's

2797
02:16:11,680 --> 02:16:14,600
Speaker 2: probably a lot worse than a hollow point. Yes, Yeah,

2798
02:16:15,520 --> 02:16:17,080
Speaker 2: So one of the first things that you get when

2799
02:16:17,080 --> 02:16:19,000
Speaker 2: you look at what our war crimes is they're not

2800
02:16:19,120 --> 02:16:23,400
Speaker 2: actually all like things that you morally should have an

2801
02:16:23,480 --> 02:16:25,240
Speaker 2: issue with. Like, really, if you are looking at all

2802
02:16:25,240 --> 02:16:28,200
Speaker 2: of the weapons employed in war today, there's no reason

2803
02:16:28,240 --> 02:16:30,640
Speaker 2: a hollow point should frighten you, Right, there's so many

2804
02:16:30,720 --> 02:16:32,920
Speaker 2: worse weapons right now. On the other hand of that,

2805
02:16:33,040 --> 02:16:36,200
Speaker 2: poison gas is much worse than the vast majority of

2806
02:16:36,280 --> 02:16:38,119
Speaker 2: weapons that are used in war today, And I think

2807
02:16:38,120 --> 02:16:41,360
Speaker 2: it's good that that's a crime. Yeah, doesn't stop people

2808
02:16:41,440 --> 02:16:44,600
Speaker 2: using it, doesn't stop like Bashar al Assade, Right.

2809
02:16:44,840 --> 02:16:47,240
Speaker 4: End of the show. I was just thinking about barrel bombs.

2810
02:16:47,240 --> 02:16:50,240
Speaker 4: I don't know if barrel bombs are specifically prohibited, and

2811
02:16:50,600 --> 02:16:52,360
Speaker 4: they are not, there would be a way to do

2812
02:16:52,480 --> 02:16:55,199
Speaker 4: that really, that just a barrel stuff would explos.

2813
02:16:55,000 --> 02:16:57,360
Speaker 2: Well, because I mean they were invented by Israel. Actually,

2814
02:16:58,000 --> 02:17:00,280
Speaker 2: I think forty seven is the first U It might

2815
02:17:00,320 --> 02:17:01,720
Speaker 2: have been like fifty yeah, but I believe it was

2816
02:17:01,760 --> 02:17:04,600
Speaker 2: forty seven was the first recorded use of Because if

2817
02:17:04,640 --> 02:17:07,199
Speaker 2: you have planes and you have reliable access to planes,

2818
02:17:07,480 --> 02:17:11,440
Speaker 2: but you know, can't reliably manufacture advanced like rockets and

2819
02:17:11,440 --> 02:17:13,960
Speaker 2: shit to shoot from them, a barrel bomb's very easy

2820
02:17:14,040 --> 02:17:16,240
Speaker 2: to make. You're basically just taking a fifty gallon drum

2821
02:17:16,840 --> 02:17:19,720
Speaker 2: and filling it with gunpowder and shrapnel, right, Like, I

2822
02:17:19,760 --> 02:17:21,800
Speaker 2: mean it's a little more complicated than that, but yeah.

2823
02:17:21,680 --> 02:17:23,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Huntern Memba have started using them as sair

2824
02:17:23,959 --> 02:17:25,640
Speaker 4: access to Russia munitions drives up.

2825
02:17:25,840 --> 02:17:28,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's you know, again, that's one of those

2826
02:17:28,240 --> 02:17:30,280
Speaker 2: things where it's like that's not technically a war crime

2827
02:17:30,920 --> 02:17:33,039
Speaker 2: other than that if you it can be if you're

2828
02:17:33,040 --> 02:17:36,440
Speaker 2: like using it indiscriminately in a civilian like against civilians.

2829
02:17:36,480 --> 02:17:39,800
Speaker 2: But like also they basically no one ever gets prosecuted

2830
02:17:39,840 --> 02:17:40,320
Speaker 2: for doing that.

2831
02:17:40,600 --> 02:17:43,160
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, right, this is the case with many

2832
02:17:43,200 --> 02:17:43,760
Speaker 4: of these things.

2833
02:17:44,200 --> 02:17:48,200
Speaker 2: And again, like barrel bombs can be legal, hollow points can't.

2834
02:17:48,240 --> 02:17:51,680
Speaker 2: That doesn't really make sense. It's also like I will say,

2835
02:17:51,720 --> 02:17:54,920
Speaker 2: I've witnessed at least one war crime in person that

2836
02:17:55,040 --> 02:17:57,240
Speaker 2: I really didn't feel like was a war crime, which

2837
02:17:57,240 --> 02:17:59,760
Speaker 2: when I was embedded with the Iraqi Army, they tear

2838
02:17:59,800 --> 02:18:02,360
Speaker 2: gasket an Isis sniper to get him out of his

2839
02:18:02,480 --> 02:18:05,680
Speaker 2: position so they could kill him, and that's definitely illegal.

2840
02:18:06,040 --> 02:18:08,280
Speaker 2: And also, of all of the things I saw done

2841
02:18:08,320 --> 02:18:11,200
Speaker 2: in that war, like the fact that somebody threw a

2842
02:18:11,280 --> 02:18:14,600
Speaker 2: tear gas grenade did not upset me over much, right,

2843
02:18:14,800 --> 02:18:17,560
Speaker 2: Like the fact that I was watching apartment buildings get

2844
02:18:17,640 --> 02:18:20,320
Speaker 2: blown up by Apache helicopters really upset me a lot

2845
02:18:20,400 --> 02:18:21,800
Speaker 2: more than a little bit of tear gas.

2846
02:18:22,320 --> 02:18:24,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's one of these like very sort of like, yeah,

2847
02:18:24,760 --> 02:18:27,200
Speaker 4: if you want to take the strict legalistic definition, yeah,

2848
02:18:27,240 --> 02:18:29,800
Speaker 4: that was a war crime. Yeah, you any war crime

2849
02:18:29,879 --> 02:18:31,760
Speaker 4: that was committed that day maybe yeah.

2850
02:18:32,200 --> 02:18:35,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. So anyway, I let I want to get into

2851
02:18:35,440 --> 02:18:37,120
Speaker 2: some of this in a little bit more of an

2852
02:18:37,240 --> 02:18:39,959
Speaker 2: organized fashion. But first let's let's have a little bit

2853
02:18:39,959 --> 02:18:40,560
Speaker 2: of an ad break.

2854
02:18:51,360 --> 02:18:51,600
Speaker 4: Ah.

2855
02:18:52,240 --> 02:18:55,800
Speaker 2: So we're back and we're talking about war crimes. So

2856
02:18:55,840 --> 02:18:57,680
Speaker 2: I want to just kind of go through and with

2857
02:18:57,800 --> 02:19:00,920
Speaker 2: some commentary. Straight up, Lee re a large chunk of

2858
02:19:00,959 --> 02:19:04,400
Speaker 2: the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, Article eight,

2859
02:19:04,840 --> 02:19:07,520
Speaker 2: which largely defines war crimes as that term has a

2860
02:19:07,640 --> 02:19:11,560
Speaker 2: meaning in a legal sense, and it defines war crimes

2861
02:19:11,879 --> 02:19:15,039
Speaker 2: as grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of twelfth August

2862
02:19:15,120 --> 02:19:18,039
Speaker 2: nineteen forty nine, namely any of the following acts against

2863
02:19:18,080 --> 02:19:20,400
Speaker 2: persons or property committed against the provisions of the relevant

2864
02:19:20,440 --> 02:19:25,640
Speaker 2: Geneva Convention. These include wilful killing, torture or inhuman treatment,

2865
02:19:25,720 --> 02:19:30,320
Speaker 2: including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering, serious injury to

2866
02:19:30,400 --> 02:19:34,360
Speaker 2: body or health, extensive destruction and appropriation of property not

2867
02:19:34,640 --> 02:19:38,279
Speaker 2: justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly,

2868
02:19:38,720 --> 02:19:41,360
Speaker 2: compelling a prisoner of war or other protected person to

2869
02:19:41,440 --> 02:19:44,640
Speaker 2: serve in the forces of a hostile power. Wilfully depriving

2870
02:19:44,680 --> 02:19:46,720
Speaker 2: a prisoner of war or other protected person of the

2871
02:19:46,840 --> 02:19:50,520
Speaker 2: rights of fair and regular trial, unlawful deportation or transfer

2872
02:19:50,640 --> 02:19:56,000
Speaker 2: or unlawful confinement, and taking of hostages right and you'll notice,

2873
02:19:56,280 --> 02:19:59,240
Speaker 2: among other things, a lot of that is stuff that

2874
02:19:59,320 --> 02:20:02,000
Speaker 2: you can find Israeli soldiers doing at TikTok, right.

2875
02:20:02,280 --> 02:20:04,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, streaming themselves doing.

2876
02:20:04,320 --> 02:20:07,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean particularly the clear not maybe not the clearest,

2877
02:20:07,120 --> 02:20:08,560
Speaker 2: but one that comes up to me just because of

2878
02:20:08,600 --> 02:20:11,160
Speaker 2: some stuff I've seen of like soldiers posing with like

2879
02:20:11,400 --> 02:20:16,480
Speaker 2: stolen canes from gosms who presumably were disabled and no

2880
02:20:16,640 --> 02:20:19,560
Speaker 2: longer have their canes for whatever terrible reason. Like these

2881
02:20:19,640 --> 02:20:22,720
Speaker 2: kind of like joking photos. That's a destruction and appropriation

2882
02:20:22,800 --> 02:20:24,600
Speaker 2: of property. Right, you have a lot of videos of

2883
02:20:24,640 --> 02:20:29,080
Speaker 2: soldiers like going through people's property, taking stuff, destroying stuff

2884
02:20:29,160 --> 02:20:32,760
Speaker 2: like those are war crimes you are not as a soldier. Obviously,

2885
02:20:33,320 --> 02:20:35,680
Speaker 2: property will get destroyed in gunfights, it can get just

2886
02:20:35,879 --> 02:20:37,920
Speaker 2: like so there's part of why it's kind of hard

2887
02:20:37,959 --> 02:20:40,120
Speaker 2: to this stuff is not prosecuted as much as it

2888
02:20:40,200 --> 02:20:41,960
Speaker 2: ought to be. But you are not supposed to just

2889
02:20:42,040 --> 02:20:44,680
Speaker 2: fuck with people shit as a soldier. That is legal,

2890
02:20:44,920 --> 02:20:47,280
Speaker 2: you know. Is it one of the war crimes that

2891
02:20:47,400 --> 02:20:50,959
Speaker 2: is probably least prosecuted and most common. Absolutely, I think

2892
02:20:51,000 --> 02:20:52,400
Speaker 2: that that is very fair to say.

2893
02:20:52,480 --> 02:20:55,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, Look, Boris Johnson stole stuff from Saddama Saint's Palace

2894
02:20:55,920 --> 02:20:58,560
Speaker 4: in right, right, you know, like he's yet to be

2895
02:20:58,640 --> 02:21:00,080
Speaker 4: called today, that.

2896
02:21:00,080 --> 02:21:01,360
Speaker 2: Would be one of those, Like I don't know, I

2897
02:21:01,400 --> 02:21:03,080
Speaker 2: don't like Boris Johnson, but also I don't have a

2898
02:21:03,120 --> 02:21:05,599
Speaker 2: problem with anyone stealing from Saddam Hush.

2899
02:21:05,320 --> 02:21:09,119
Speaker 4: Exactly specifically, Yeah, of all the bullshit he's done.

2900
02:21:09,560 --> 02:21:11,840
Speaker 2: But this is I mean, that's one of those because

2901
02:21:11,959 --> 02:21:14,240
Speaker 2: I would say a lot of soldiers I know who

2902
02:21:14,320 --> 02:21:17,280
Speaker 2: have been and maybe didn't even realize themselves that what

2903
02:21:17,320 --> 02:21:18,920
Speaker 2: they were doing was committing a war crime. But just

2904
02:21:19,000 --> 02:21:21,440
Speaker 2: like you're in somebody's house, they are gone, they ran,

2905
02:21:22,040 --> 02:21:25,000
Speaker 2: and like you wind up fucking with shit like it happens.

2906
02:21:25,640 --> 02:21:28,560
Speaker 2: I think what we're seeing, I think willfully is kind

2907
02:21:28,600 --> 02:21:30,959
Speaker 2: of an important term here, right, And I think that's

2908
02:21:31,320 --> 02:21:33,280
Speaker 2: really what we've seen very clearly in a lot of

2909
02:21:33,360 --> 02:21:37,000
Speaker 2: these IDF tiktoks, right, is people taking glee in the

2910
02:21:37,120 --> 02:21:40,840
Speaker 2: destruction of property. And I think that's very easy to

2911
02:21:41,600 --> 02:21:42,520
Speaker 2: prove as a war crime.

2912
02:21:43,160 --> 02:21:45,560
Speaker 4: I think anyone can make a moral distinction right between.

2913
02:21:45,640 --> 02:21:48,920
Speaker 4: Like I was recently in Rajava and I was talking

2914
02:21:48,959 --> 02:21:50,680
Speaker 4: to some friends and they were talking about how they

2915
02:21:51,680 --> 02:21:54,320
Speaker 4: a lot of people died in ied blasts because they

2916
02:21:54,400 --> 02:21:58,560
Speaker 4: were going into buildings to try and get food or tea, right, sugar. Yeah,

2917
02:21:58,800 --> 02:22:01,160
Speaker 4: there's a distinction between going into the kitchen of abandoned

2918
02:22:01,160 --> 02:22:04,280
Speaker 4: building and taking some some sugar or whatever rice.

2919
02:22:04,440 --> 02:22:04,600
Speaker 3: You know.

2920
02:22:05,120 --> 02:22:09,000
Speaker 4: Then Yeah, these guys going through women's underwear rulers taking

2921
02:22:09,040 --> 02:22:10,160
Speaker 4: pictures with their underwear.

2922
02:22:10,480 --> 02:22:13,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know some some US Marines who like

2923
02:22:13,360 --> 02:22:16,520
Speaker 2: happened upon a cigarette factory during the invasion. I had

2924
02:22:16,600 --> 02:22:19,440
Speaker 2: like the uncut cigarettes that are like five feet long,

2925
02:22:19,480 --> 02:22:21,360
Speaker 2: and they just started like smoking up on them. I

2926
02:22:21,400 --> 02:22:24,120
Speaker 2: guess that's destruction of property. Probably not going to be

2927
02:22:24,200 --> 02:22:27,199
Speaker 2: my priority as the ICZ, but it also doesn't seem

2928
02:22:27,320 --> 02:22:29,840
Speaker 2: like the clearer stuff is their priority. So I don't know.

2929
02:22:29,959 --> 02:22:34,080
Speaker 4: Free my man with the five foot cigarette? He did? Yeah? Yeah.

2930
02:22:34,240 --> 02:22:34,280
Speaker 5: So.

2931
02:22:35,240 --> 02:22:39,800
Speaker 2: Other war crimes include intentionally directing attacks against the civilian

2932
02:22:39,879 --> 02:22:43,920
Speaker 2: population as such, or against individual civilians not taking part

2933
02:22:44,000 --> 02:22:46,879
Speaker 2: in hostilities. There's a video going around right now man

2934
02:22:46,959 --> 02:22:49,840
Speaker 2: in his fifties in Gaza who was working a market

2935
02:22:49,920 --> 02:22:54,560
Speaker 2: stall and was shot by an Israeli drone just executed.

2936
02:22:54,920 --> 02:22:57,800
Speaker 2: There's no way to describe that other than intentionally directing

2937
02:22:57,800 --> 02:23:00,600
Speaker 2: an attack against a civilian, not to making direct part

2938
02:23:00,680 --> 02:23:03,959
Speaker 2: in hostilities. That is a war crime. That's one example

2939
02:23:04,000 --> 02:23:06,080
Speaker 2: of I mean, that's just the clearest video that I

2940
02:23:06,280 --> 02:23:07,000
Speaker 2: saw recently.

2941
02:23:07,200 --> 02:23:10,720
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I heard from people who listen. I think

2942
02:23:11,200 --> 02:23:13,040
Speaker 4: I think this was in the episode, but when we

2943
02:23:13,080 --> 02:23:14,640
Speaker 4: talk to our friends at PK Guy that they were

2944
02:23:14,640 --> 02:23:17,200
Speaker 4: talking about one of the members of their group was

2945
02:23:17,280 --> 02:23:20,879
Speaker 4: recovering bodies from a bombed building and was shot by

2946
02:23:20,879 --> 02:23:23,840
Speaker 4: a quad coptail like not like a drone, like ten

2947
02:23:23,920 --> 02:23:27,080
Speaker 4: thousand feet in the air, dropping a missile like a drone. Yeah,

2948
02:23:27,240 --> 02:23:28,840
Speaker 4: like in the air, firing.

2949
02:23:28,680 --> 02:23:30,760
Speaker 2: A drone like you can buy at a fucking best

2950
02:23:30,840 --> 02:23:32,400
Speaker 2: Buy that's been modified. Yeah.

2951
02:23:32,480 --> 02:23:34,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, that shoots like it shoots a rifle, like just

2952
02:23:35,240 --> 02:23:38,040
Speaker 4: like a soldier to shoot a rifle where the operator

2953
02:23:38,160 --> 02:23:41,800
Speaker 4: is looking and seeing that person and pressing a button

2954
02:23:41,840 --> 02:23:46,000
Speaker 4: to fire bullet. It's not collateral damage. It's deliberate civilians.

2955
02:23:46,760 --> 02:23:50,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, continue from that list of war crimes.

2956
02:23:50,840 --> 02:23:53,959
Speaker 2: Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which

2957
02:23:53,959 --> 02:23:57,400
Speaker 2: are not military objectives. A great example of this that's

2958
02:23:57,480 --> 02:24:00,960
Speaker 2: been happening in Gaza in particular is destruct to mosques, right,

2959
02:24:02,480 --> 02:24:05,279
Speaker 2: very clear, civilian objects. Now, there are exceptions. For example,

2960
02:24:05,720 --> 02:24:09,000
Speaker 2: one thing that does sometimes happen. I don't think it happened.

2961
02:24:09,040 --> 02:24:11,240
Speaker 2: It certainly have not seen evidence of it happening often

2962
02:24:11,560 --> 02:24:14,920
Speaker 2: in most of the places where there are attacks on mosques,

2963
02:24:14,959 --> 02:24:19,520
Speaker 2: but like periodically, like if somebody, if a fighter, a

2964
02:24:19,600 --> 02:24:22,600
Speaker 2: military unit sets up inside a mosque or right, or

2965
02:24:22,680 --> 02:24:25,000
Speaker 2: a church or whatever, which happened in World War Two

2966
02:24:25,000 --> 02:24:26,680
Speaker 2: a lot, Right, you would have like churches used as

2967
02:24:26,680 --> 02:24:30,280
Speaker 2: strong points because they're well made buildings. You can attack that, right,

2968
02:24:30,400 --> 02:24:33,360
Speaker 2: Like it's not like magical, right, Like you can't suddenly

2969
02:24:33,480 --> 02:24:35,920
Speaker 2: not attack soldiers who are shooting at you from a church.

2970
02:24:36,200 --> 02:24:38,680
Speaker 2: But you are not supposed to intentionally direct attacks against

2971
02:24:38,720 --> 02:24:43,480
Speaker 2: civilian objects that are not military objectives, intentionally directing attacks

2972
02:24:43,480 --> 02:24:47,400
Speaker 2: against personnel installations, materiel units, or vehicles involved in a

2973
02:24:47,560 --> 02:24:51,039
Speaker 2: humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission in accordance with the Charter

2974
02:24:51,120 --> 02:24:53,320
Speaker 2: of the United Nations, as long as they are entitled

2975
02:24:53,320 --> 02:24:55,760
Speaker 2: to the protection given to civilians or civilian objects under

2976
02:24:55,800 --> 02:24:59,280
Speaker 2: international law of armed conflict. Best example of this from

2977
02:24:59,280 --> 02:25:03,800
Speaker 2: Gazzer recent would be those World Kitchen employees and their

2978
02:25:03,959 --> 02:25:07,920
Speaker 2: bodyguards who were essentially murdered by the Israelis. Right, very clear,

2979
02:25:08,040 --> 02:25:12,640
Speaker 2: internationally recognized humanitarian assistance very clear war crime if you

2980
02:25:12,680 --> 02:25:15,360
Speaker 2: can prove it was intentional. I'm sure there's you know,

2981
02:25:15,520 --> 02:25:20,280
Speaker 2: that's a court case, right, but I think pretty clear.

2982
02:25:20,720 --> 02:25:22,800
Speaker 2: And then there is intentionally launching an attack in the

2983
02:25:22,879 --> 02:25:25,440
Speaker 2: knowledge that such attack will cause incident at loss of

2984
02:25:25,520 --> 02:25:29,040
Speaker 2: life or injury to civilians, or damage to civilian objects,

2985
02:25:29,120 --> 02:25:31,920
Speaker 2: or widespread, long term and severe damage to the natural environment,

2986
02:25:31,920 --> 02:25:34,279
Speaker 2: which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete

2987
02:25:34,320 --> 02:25:38,080
Speaker 2: and direct overall military advantage and dissipated. This is one

2988
02:25:38,080 --> 02:25:39,800
Speaker 2: of the top things that is a war crime that

2989
02:25:39,959 --> 02:25:43,000
Speaker 2: never gets punished because it is so hard, because that

2990
02:25:43,720 --> 02:25:45,560
Speaker 2: it seemed like most I would say, most of what

2991
02:25:45,680 --> 02:25:48,760
Speaker 2: I have seen planes do in war seems like it

2992
02:25:48,920 --> 02:25:50,680
Speaker 2: falls under this where it's like, wow, that's a lot

2993
02:25:50,760 --> 02:25:53,520
Speaker 2: of environmental damage, a lot of incidental loss of life

2994
02:25:53,560 --> 02:25:55,960
Speaker 2: and injury, but is it excessive in relation to the

2995
02:25:56,040 --> 02:25:59,680
Speaker 2: concrete and direct overall military advantage. Well, the people ordering

2996
02:25:59,720 --> 02:26:02,879
Speaker 2: those air strikes would say no, right, and like yeah,

2997
02:26:03,280 --> 02:26:05,080
Speaker 2: And that is one of those things where it's like, well,

2998
02:26:05,120 --> 02:26:09,080
Speaker 2: I know what looks like crime to me, Yeah, But

2999
02:26:09,720 --> 02:26:11,720
Speaker 2: could I win an ICC case about that?

3000
02:26:11,840 --> 02:26:12,200
Speaker 3: I don't know.

3001
02:26:12,879 --> 02:26:13,000
Speaker 4: Now.

3002
02:26:13,080 --> 02:26:15,160
Speaker 2: I want to actually move over to talk about Ukraine

3003
02:26:15,240 --> 02:26:17,920
Speaker 2: here because I think that that number one doesn't happen

3004
02:26:18,040 --> 02:26:19,760
Speaker 2: enough on the left, and I think there's some really good,

3005
02:26:20,040 --> 02:26:23,520
Speaker 2: clear examples of Russian war crimes here, because one thing

3006
02:26:23,560 --> 02:26:25,760
Speaker 2: that you're not allowed to do is quote attacking or

3007
02:26:25,840 --> 02:26:29,440
Speaker 2: bombarding by whatever means towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which

3008
02:26:29,440 --> 02:26:33,080
Speaker 2: are undefended and which are not military objectives. And both

3009
02:26:33,120 --> 02:26:35,280
Speaker 2: of those last two points make it very clear that

3010
02:26:35,440 --> 02:26:38,680
Speaker 2: the Russian military committed war crimes against Ukraine from March

3011
02:26:38,760 --> 02:26:41,320
Speaker 2: fourth to March thirty first, twenty twenty two, when they

3012
02:26:41,400 --> 02:26:44,160
Speaker 2: occupied the town of Buka, which was about it is,

3013
02:26:44,200 --> 02:26:47,240
Speaker 2: about thirty kilometers north of Kiv. This is one of

3014
02:26:47,240 --> 02:26:49,960
Speaker 2: the best, probably the best documented Russian war crime in

3015
02:26:50,160 --> 02:26:52,680
Speaker 2: Ukraine at the moment. And I'm not saying that this

3016
02:26:52,840 --> 02:26:55,360
Speaker 2: is only it's not nearly the only, it's just like

3017
02:26:55,640 --> 02:27:00,720
Speaker 2: a particularly well documented example. As of this point, you know,

3018
02:27:01,080 --> 02:27:04,480
Speaker 2: we're almost two years past when Buka got liberated. The

3019
02:27:04,560 --> 02:27:07,120
Speaker 2: bodies of more than a thousand civilians have been discovered

3020
02:27:07,160 --> 02:27:10,120
Speaker 2: in the Buca region. At least about six hundred and

3021
02:27:10,200 --> 02:27:13,160
Speaker 2: fifty people are known to have been executed by the

3022
02:27:13,280 --> 02:27:18,880
Speaker 2: Russian army and these our pretty hideous mass executions. A

3023
02:27:18,959 --> 02:27:21,240
Speaker 2: lot of people were held for a week or two

3024
02:27:21,360 --> 02:27:25,080
Speaker 2: prior to being executed. There's significant evidence of torture of

3025
02:27:25,200 --> 02:27:29,640
Speaker 2: beatings of civilians before their summary execution. And yeah, it's

3026
02:27:31,760 --> 02:27:33,800
Speaker 2: a very clear example of a war crime. Like, I

3027
02:27:33,879 --> 02:27:36,920
Speaker 2: don't know how else to say it. I will read

3028
02:27:36,959 --> 02:27:39,600
Speaker 2: a quote from this Human Rights Watch article that interviewed

3029
02:27:39,640 --> 02:27:44,640
Speaker 2: some funeral home workers in Buka. Another funeral homeworker, Sergei Makyuk,

3030
02:27:44,640 --> 02:27:47,280
Speaker 2: who helped collect bodies, said that he personally collected about

3031
02:27:47,280 --> 02:27:49,520
Speaker 2: two hundred bodies from the streets since the Russian invasion

3032
02:27:49,560 --> 02:27:52,040
Speaker 2: began on February twenty fourth. Most of the victims were men,

3033
02:27:52,160 --> 02:27:54,360
Speaker 2: he said, but some were women and children. Almost all

3034
02:27:54,400 --> 02:27:56,680
Speaker 2: of them had bullet wounds, he said, including around fifty

3035
02:27:56,680 --> 02:27:59,560
Speaker 2: whose hands were tied and whose bodies had signs of torture.

3036
02:28:00,000 --> 02:28:02,640
Speaker 2: Bodies with hands tied strongly suggests that the victims had

3037
02:28:02,680 --> 02:28:05,959
Speaker 2: been detained and summarily executed. And that's a I mean,

3038
02:28:06,000 --> 02:28:08,360
Speaker 2: a thousand pitce a hideous war crime, right, Like, that's

3039
02:28:09,280 --> 02:28:13,720
Speaker 2: a mass killing of civilians in a crucially there's no

3040
02:28:13,959 --> 02:28:16,960
Speaker 2: argument and one way in which civilians always die are

3041
02:28:17,080 --> 02:28:20,160
Speaker 2: killed in war, and it's not usually a war crime

3042
02:28:20,200 --> 02:28:23,400
Speaker 2: because it generally happens while there's gun fights going on,

3043
02:28:23,600 --> 02:28:25,560
Speaker 2: while you're carrying, and you can claim like, well, look,

3044
02:28:26,200 --> 02:28:28,840
Speaker 2: you know, you can't stop bullets from going through buildings,

3045
02:28:28,920 --> 02:28:31,120
Speaker 2: you can't stop people from getting hit by a shrapnel.

3046
02:28:31,160 --> 02:28:33,200
Speaker 2: You're fighting in a city. Civilians are going to die.

3047
02:28:33,600 --> 02:28:36,879
Speaker 2: This is a very clear case of this town was occupied,

3048
02:28:37,040 --> 02:28:39,720
Speaker 2: there was not resistance ongoing in it, and they were

3049
02:28:39,800 --> 02:28:43,280
Speaker 2: mass executing civilians. That's illegal. You're not allowed to do

3050
02:28:43,400 --> 02:28:48,760
Speaker 2: that theoretically, if international law means anything. Now, I do

3051
02:28:48,879 --> 02:28:51,680
Speaker 2: want to get to another case of a war crime

3052
02:28:52,000 --> 02:28:54,520
Speaker 2: that are a thing that people call a war crime

3053
02:28:54,680 --> 02:28:56,480
Speaker 2: that isn't a war crime. And this we're actually going

3054
02:28:56,560 --> 02:28:59,800
Speaker 2: to go back to the Iraq the first Iraq war. Desert.

3055
02:29:00,640 --> 02:29:03,640
Speaker 2: Before you go to desert storm, let's go to these ads.

3056
02:29:14,720 --> 02:29:17,520
Speaker 2: All right, we're back, James. What do you know about

3057
02:29:17,520 --> 02:29:18,400
Speaker 2: the Highway of Death?

3058
02:29:19,000 --> 02:29:19,120
Speaker 5: Oh?

3059
02:29:19,160 --> 02:29:20,800
Speaker 4: I know a little bit about the Highway of Death.

3060
02:29:20,879 --> 02:29:21,039
Speaker 1: Yeah.

3061
02:29:21,200 --> 02:29:22,240
Speaker 4: Let's a throwback, isn't it.

3062
02:29:22,560 --> 02:29:26,800
Speaker 2: It's a throwback. I hear it described by particularly leftists

3063
02:29:26,800 --> 02:29:29,760
Speaker 2: on the internet a lot as a US war crime. Yeah,

3064
02:29:30,280 --> 02:29:34,240
Speaker 2: and as a spoiler, it's not it's ugly, it's really hideous.

3065
02:29:34,480 --> 02:29:35,880
Speaker 2: It's like a horrifying thing.

3066
02:29:36,360 --> 02:29:40,160
Speaker 4: But it's just war, right, And it was combatants fighting combatants.

3067
02:29:40,600 --> 02:29:43,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was combatants killing retreating combatants, which people think

3068
02:29:44,440 --> 02:29:47,600
Speaker 2: sometimes shouldn't be allowed. But it doesn't really make sense

3069
02:29:47,640 --> 02:29:49,160
Speaker 2: for that to not be allowed if you just like

3070
02:29:49,440 --> 02:29:51,920
Speaker 2: know what war is. And I'm going to talk about

3071
02:29:51,959 --> 02:29:55,560
Speaker 2: why here, and like I'm not trying to justify this

3072
02:29:55,720 --> 02:29:58,480
Speaker 2: because nothing in war make it does. Like, you don't

3073
02:29:58,640 --> 02:30:01,760
Speaker 2: justify it, just is it a thing that happens, right, Like,

3074
02:30:02,240 --> 02:30:04,640
Speaker 2: it's all hideous. If you've been through it, you see

3075
02:30:04,720 --> 02:30:07,120
Speaker 2: in humanity every second. But one of the things that

3076
02:30:07,600 --> 02:30:11,000
Speaker 2: you learn if you study war on an academic level

3077
02:30:11,160 --> 02:30:14,440
Speaker 2: is that a massive part of it is retreating. Like

3078
02:30:14,640 --> 02:30:19,160
Speaker 2: all the time, all throughout history, armies retreat, regroup, and

3079
02:30:19,320 --> 02:30:21,160
Speaker 2: then carry out additional offensives.

3080
02:30:21,280 --> 02:30:21,440
Speaker 3: Right.

3081
02:30:21,959 --> 02:30:25,760
Speaker 2: That is war in a nutshell, right, And so when

3082
02:30:25,920 --> 02:30:29,080
Speaker 2: armies are retreating, you're allowed to keep killing them, and

3083
02:30:29,200 --> 02:30:33,520
Speaker 2: in fact, that's the norm. And most soldiers, up until

3084
02:30:33,560 --> 02:30:36,119
Speaker 2: the modern era, the vast majority of combat debts we're

3085
02:30:36,200 --> 02:30:36,959
Speaker 2: during retreats.

3086
02:30:37,160 --> 02:30:37,280
Speaker 4: Right.

3087
02:30:37,640 --> 02:30:40,720
Speaker 2: This is the primary way in which soldiers are killed.

3088
02:30:40,760 --> 02:30:43,960
Speaker 2: This is when they're retreating, right, And so what actually

3089
02:30:44,080 --> 02:30:47,119
Speaker 2: happened is in August, so obviously August of nineteen ninety,

3090
02:30:47,200 --> 02:30:50,840
Speaker 2: the US leads a coalition against the Iraqi Army who

3091
02:30:50,879 --> 02:30:55,440
Speaker 2: have invaded and occupied Kuwait illegally. You know, one of

3092
02:30:55,520 --> 02:30:58,560
Speaker 2: my stances on this is that Iraq very clearly violated

3093
02:30:58,640 --> 02:31:02,080
Speaker 2: international law and they didn't have been allowed to occupy Kuwait. Now,

3094
02:31:02,360 --> 02:31:05,840
Speaker 2: there's a lot of things about like US involvement in

3095
02:31:05,920 --> 02:31:09,279
Speaker 2: Iraq prior to this that are you could say extenuating,

3096
02:31:09,360 --> 02:31:12,000
Speaker 2: including the fact that like we had kind of pushed

3097
02:31:12,040 --> 02:31:15,520
Speaker 2: them to invade Iran and then played both sides of

3098
02:31:15,560 --> 02:31:17,960
Speaker 2: that conflict, and that was part of what Saddam was

3099
02:31:18,000 --> 02:31:22,320
Speaker 2: pissed about. But that doesn't justify it in Kuwait being occupied, Right,

3100
02:31:22,400 --> 02:31:25,119
Speaker 2: You can't just get mad and invade somewhere unless you're America.

3101
02:31:25,600 --> 02:31:27,680
Speaker 2: Unless you're America, which we're going to do to Iraq

3102
02:31:27,760 --> 02:31:30,520
Speaker 2: not much longer after this, But in this case, you know,

3103
02:31:30,959 --> 02:31:34,320
Speaker 2: we're more or less on the on the better side

3104
02:31:34,360 --> 02:31:37,680
Speaker 2: of things, right, and we basically immediately throw the Iraqi

3105
02:31:37,800 --> 02:31:41,000
Speaker 2: Army into a full fledged retreat. This culminates in late

3106
02:31:41,080 --> 02:31:43,880
Speaker 2: February nineteen ninety one with a huge number of Iraqi

3107
02:31:43,920 --> 02:31:47,040
Speaker 2: soldiers and military vehicles jammed up on a convoy on

3108
02:31:47,560 --> 02:31:50,600
Speaker 2: Highway eighty, which is the highway that connects Iraq to Kuwait.

3109
02:31:51,040 --> 02:31:53,280
Speaker 2: And what we do is we use our planes to

3110
02:31:53,480 --> 02:31:56,360
Speaker 2: blow up vehicles on both ends of this convoy of

3111
02:31:56,480 --> 02:32:00,320
Speaker 2: like three thousand vehicles, which then traps thousands and thousands

3112
02:32:00,320 --> 02:32:02,880
Speaker 2: of soldiers inside these walls of fire, so we can

3113
02:32:02,959 --> 02:32:06,800
Speaker 2: spend ten hours bombing them. And this is fucking hideous.

3114
02:32:07,320 --> 02:32:09,680
Speaker 2: The event is memorialized, and this is part of why

3115
02:32:09,760 --> 02:32:12,000
Speaker 2: people think of it as a war crime in a

3116
02:32:12,040 --> 02:32:14,680
Speaker 2: picture by a photojournalist of the corpse of an Iraqi

3117
02:32:14,800 --> 02:32:18,080
Speaker 2: soldier hideously burned, frozen in time as he tried to

3118
02:32:18,160 --> 02:32:21,840
Speaker 2: flee his flaming tank, and that picture you can find it.

3119
02:32:21,920 --> 02:32:25,800
Speaker 2: It's I mean, it's horrible. It's a great example of

3120
02:32:25,879 --> 02:32:28,000
Speaker 2: why war is bad and we should do less of it.

3121
02:32:28,480 --> 02:32:29,760
Speaker 2: And it is, you know, it's one of those things.

3122
02:32:29,800 --> 02:32:32,840
Speaker 2: A lot of US soldiers who participate in this feel

3123
02:32:33,160 --> 02:32:36,720
Speaker 2: uncomfortable with it, feel like they are unnecessarily killing a

3124
02:32:36,959 --> 02:32:39,760
Speaker 2: large number of people. And you can make that case.

3125
02:32:40,080 --> 02:32:42,480
Speaker 2: You can make a case and I'll listen to it

3126
02:32:42,760 --> 02:32:45,680
Speaker 2: that this was hideously evil, but it's not a war crime.

3127
02:32:45,959 --> 02:32:48,880
Speaker 2: Right now, Sodam's going to make that claim, arguing that

3128
02:32:48,959 --> 02:32:52,080
Speaker 2: his soldiers are trying to peacefully withdraw, But there's like

3129
02:32:52,160 --> 02:32:55,160
Speaker 2: a definition of that, and what the Iraqis were doing

3130
02:32:55,280 --> 02:32:58,000
Speaker 2: didn't meet it. What actually happened is that the Iraqi

3131
02:32:58,120 --> 02:33:01,760
Speaker 2: army made contact with the US army and then they

3132
02:33:02,200 --> 02:33:05,640
Speaker 2: went into a retreat. They were attempting to leave the

3133
02:33:05,760 --> 02:33:10,000
Speaker 2: area after losing a fight, and they had not formally surrendered.

3134
02:33:10,120 --> 02:33:13,080
Speaker 2: And there's nothing an international law that makes it illegal

3135
02:33:13,160 --> 02:33:16,400
Speaker 2: to kill soldiers who happened to be withdrawing, right. A

3136
02:33:16,440 --> 02:33:18,280
Speaker 2: great example of this would be nineteen forty four during

3137
02:33:18,320 --> 02:33:20,640
Speaker 2: the Battle of Normandy. There are reports of retreating German

3138
02:33:20,720 --> 02:33:23,520
Speaker 2: soldiers shot by US soldiers and there was debate at

3139
02:33:23,560 --> 02:33:26,120
Speaker 2: the time as like, well, is this a violation of

3140
02:33:26,160 --> 02:33:28,879
Speaker 2: the Geneva Conventions, right? And the conclusion that was generally

3141
02:33:28,959 --> 02:33:31,600
Speaker 2: reached in is that you shouldn't kill an enemy who

3142
02:33:31,680 --> 02:33:34,879
Speaker 2: is number one not in combat and number two surrendering,

3143
02:33:35,000 --> 02:33:37,680
Speaker 2: And there is kind of a blurry line between that

3144
02:33:37,920 --> 02:33:42,280
Speaker 2: and retreat. But again, the vast majority of soldiers killed

3145
02:33:42,360 --> 02:33:46,240
Speaker 2: in war are killed running away, right, Like that's just

3146
02:33:46,440 --> 02:33:48,360
Speaker 2: kind of how I mean, that's changed a bit in

3147
02:33:48,440 --> 02:33:50,960
Speaker 2: the modern era, but like this is I think more

3148
02:33:51,000 --> 02:33:53,920
Speaker 2: falls under one of those things where everyone sees this

3149
02:33:54,040 --> 02:33:56,560
Speaker 2: as a nightmare, because it is a nightmare. Those random

3150
02:33:56,600 --> 02:33:59,680
Speaker 2: Iraqi conscripts did not deserve to burn to death in

3151
02:33:59,760 --> 02:34:02,920
Speaker 2: this Charnel house we created on the Highway eighty. And

3152
02:34:03,040 --> 02:34:05,080
Speaker 2: also like, well, that's just what war is, man.

3153
02:34:05,320 --> 02:34:06,120
Speaker 4: You think we didn't do that.

3154
02:34:06,160 --> 02:34:08,480
Speaker 2: To the Nazis. You think the Nazis didn't do that

3155
02:34:08,600 --> 02:34:10,840
Speaker 2: to the fucking Russians, you think like you think that

3156
02:34:10,959 --> 02:34:14,080
Speaker 2: hasn't happened to every war, Like that's just what war is, man,

3157
02:34:14,280 --> 02:34:16,600
Speaker 2: That's why we shouldn't do it. It's really bad.

3158
02:34:17,080 --> 02:34:19,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's fucked. The things are allowed to do a

3159
02:34:19,160 --> 02:34:21,160
Speaker 4: fucked so you think you're not allowed to do Like, yeah,

3160
02:34:21,360 --> 02:34:25,000
Speaker 4: we did do some things in the specifically in that incident,

3161
02:34:25,080 --> 02:34:27,640
Speaker 4: which are now I didn't think they're war crimes, but

3162
02:34:27,720 --> 02:34:30,440
Speaker 4: like they used cluster bombs on the Highway of tests. Yes,

3163
02:34:30,840 --> 02:34:33,560
Speaker 4: it's a separate agreement. It's not part of THEMA Convention, right.

3164
02:34:33,800 --> 02:34:35,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a separate agreement. And like

3165
02:34:36,000 --> 02:34:39,080
Speaker 2: obviously things have like at our doctrine and kind of

3166
02:34:39,440 --> 02:34:41,800
Speaker 2: internet like has changed as a result of that, in

3167
02:34:41,879 --> 02:34:44,080
Speaker 2: part because like a lot of American soldiers were like,

3168
02:34:44,600 --> 02:34:47,680
Speaker 2: I really didn't feel good about this. My kid doesn't

3169
02:34:47,720 --> 02:34:51,200
Speaker 2: seem like this was necessary at all. Yeah, and I

3170
02:34:51,480 --> 02:34:53,760
Speaker 2: don't think it was necessary, right, Like, I don't think

3171
02:34:53,800 --> 02:34:55,520
Speaker 2: it was needed to do this to beat I think

3172
02:34:55,560 --> 02:34:58,200
Speaker 2: the Iraqi army was already beaten. But the question isn't

3173
02:34:58,280 --> 02:35:01,400
Speaker 2: wasn't necessary? The question is was this not something that

3174
02:35:01,600 --> 02:35:05,760
Speaker 2: is generally acceptable in war? And it is because war,

3175
02:35:05,959 --> 02:35:12,120
Speaker 2: Like again, blowing, like making exploding pieces like giant boxes

3176
02:35:12,320 --> 02:35:16,959
Speaker 2: filled with shards of metal in order to wound hundreds

3177
02:35:17,000 --> 02:35:19,360
Speaker 2: of people at a time is acceptable in war, right,

3178
02:35:19,560 --> 02:35:20,360
Speaker 2: Like it's.

3179
02:35:20,320 --> 02:35:23,920
Speaker 4: Bad, Yeah, bad things happening. We should have it if

3180
02:35:23,959 --> 02:35:24,240
Speaker 4: we can.

3181
02:35:24,720 --> 02:35:27,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's continue our list of things that be

3182
02:35:27,800 --> 02:35:30,040
Speaker 2: war crimes. One of them is making improper use of

3183
02:35:30,120 --> 02:35:32,040
Speaker 2: a flag of truce. So you're not allowed to like

3184
02:35:32,160 --> 02:35:35,360
Speaker 2: pretend to surrender or pretend to try to negotiate and

3185
02:35:35,400 --> 02:35:38,400
Speaker 2: then start shooting. That's a war crime. Actually, you're not

3186
02:35:38,480 --> 02:35:42,360
Speaker 2: allowed to transfer parts of the population of the civilian

3187
02:35:42,440 --> 02:35:45,120
Speaker 2: population of a territory you occupy to other parts of

3188
02:35:45,160 --> 02:35:48,000
Speaker 2: your territory, which the Russians have done in Ukraine. They

3189
02:35:48,040 --> 02:35:50,520
Speaker 2: have been taking particularly Ukrainian children and moving them to

3190
02:35:50,560 --> 02:35:53,240
Speaker 2: elsewhere in Russia, adopting them out to the families. That

3191
02:35:53,400 --> 02:35:54,119
Speaker 2: is a war crime.

3192
02:35:54,440 --> 02:35:55,560
Speaker 4: Turkey's done it in Aphree.

3193
02:35:56,120 --> 02:35:57,880
Speaker 2: Turkey does a hell of a lot of this, right,

3194
02:35:57,879 --> 02:36:00,360
Speaker 2: They've done a lot of that in Afrin. Yes, as

3195
02:36:00,400 --> 02:36:04,360
Speaker 2: you said, and obviously these really well I mean these

3196
02:36:04,400 --> 02:36:06,680
Speaker 2: really military. We're actually going to talk about their abduction

3197
02:36:06,840 --> 02:36:11,000
Speaker 2: and imprisonment of Palestinians because that also violates that arguably

3198
02:36:11,080 --> 02:36:14,960
Speaker 2: violates this. But there's a separate segment of the Roman

3199
02:36:15,000 --> 02:36:19,119
Speaker 2: statues that violates. And then intentionally directing attacks against buildings

3200
02:36:19,160 --> 02:36:23,039
Speaker 2: dedicated to religion, education, art, science, or charitable purposes. I'm

3201
02:36:23,080 --> 02:36:27,720
Speaker 2: thinking about historical monuments, hospitals. Very easy to find examples

3202
02:36:27,760 --> 02:36:28,440
Speaker 2: of that in Gaza.

3203
02:36:28,560 --> 02:36:28,680
Speaker 4: Right.

3204
02:36:29,520 --> 02:36:31,600
Speaker 2: Again, the little bit of wiggle room here is like

3205
02:36:31,720 --> 02:36:35,080
Speaker 2: if they're being occupied as like an enemy HQ, which

3206
02:36:35,120 --> 02:36:38,280
Speaker 2: is basically what everyone claims when they bomb hospitals.

3207
02:36:38,360 --> 02:36:38,520
Speaker 4: Right.

3208
02:36:38,800 --> 02:36:41,320
Speaker 2: The US has done this a lot too, like we have,

3209
02:36:41,520 --> 02:36:44,000
Speaker 2: especially in Afghanistan. We had a number of hospitals and

3210
02:36:44,080 --> 02:36:45,240
Speaker 2: it was always like, well we thought.

3211
02:36:45,120 --> 02:36:46,080
Speaker 3: There were some guys there.

3212
02:36:46,440 --> 02:36:49,280
Speaker 2: We were trying to write and Russia and Israel both

3213
02:36:49,320 --> 02:36:52,680
Speaker 2: have extensive histories doing this. During the Syrian Civil War,

3214
02:36:52,800 --> 02:36:56,000
Speaker 2: Russian planes back in the ASAD regime regularly targeted medical

3215
02:36:56,040 --> 02:36:59,400
Speaker 2: facilities in Aleppo at least twenty seven times from fall

3216
02:36:59,440 --> 02:37:02,400
Speaker 2: of twenty fifth to the winter of twenty sixteen. More recently,

3217
02:37:02,480 --> 02:37:06,120
Speaker 2: Russia has targeted hospitals in Kherson. Per this Guardian article quote,

3218
02:37:06,360 --> 02:37:09,400
Speaker 2: since December twenty two, the Russian army has been bombarding

3219
02:37:09,440 --> 02:37:12,000
Speaker 2: Karsan from dug in positions on the nearby left eastern

3220
02:37:12,040 --> 02:37:15,240
Speaker 2: flank of the Knipro River. It has attacked civilian infrastructure,

3221
02:37:15,280 --> 02:37:18,840
Speaker 2: including schools, private residential houses, hospitals and the railway station.

3222
02:37:19,560 --> 02:37:23,279
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's pretty hideous, like these are systematic attacks.

3223
02:37:23,320 --> 02:37:27,240
Speaker 2: The Cinema for in Information Resilience has documented fourteen separate

3224
02:37:27,280 --> 02:37:29,520
Speaker 2: attacks over six months between December of twenty twenty two

3225
02:37:29,520 --> 02:37:33,000
Speaker 2: and May of twenty twenty three, striking hospital facilities several

3226
02:37:33,040 --> 02:37:36,280
Speaker 2: times with the apparent purpose of degrading their capacity to

3227
02:37:36,360 --> 02:37:39,960
Speaker 2: continue to serve the civilian population. The targeting of hospitals

3228
02:37:40,000 --> 02:37:43,040
Speaker 2: has also been utterly endemic to Israeli activities in Gaza.

3229
02:37:43,280 --> 02:37:45,440
Speaker 2: In November of twenty thirteen, they killed at least twelve

3230
02:37:45,440 --> 02:37:48,680
Speaker 2: people in attacks on the Indonesian hospital in bit Lahia, Gaza,

3231
02:37:49,120 --> 02:37:52,199
Speaker 2: and basically every medical facility in Gaza has been targeted,

3232
02:37:52,280 --> 02:37:54,480
Speaker 2: and more than twenty of the thirty five hospitals in Gaza,

3233
02:37:54,959 --> 02:37:56,879
Speaker 2: Gaza have at this point been taken out of service

3234
02:37:56,959 --> 02:37:59,240
Speaker 2: due to damage. The most famous of these was the

3235
02:37:59,280 --> 02:38:02,600
Speaker 2: Alshifaha Hospital, which held dozens of premature babies, thirty one

3236
02:38:02,640 --> 02:38:04,800
Speaker 2: of whom had to be evacuated after weeks of losing

3237
02:38:04,840 --> 02:38:07,640
Speaker 2: power to their incubators and being fed a formula mixed

3238
02:38:07,680 --> 02:38:11,280
Speaker 2: with poisoned water. Eight infants died at least I'm sure

3239
02:38:11,320 --> 02:38:16,200
Speaker 2: that number is higher before evacuation. This is obvious war crime, right.

3240
02:38:17,080 --> 02:38:20,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, A friend Taraklubani, who I've interviewed the show before,

3241
02:38:20,520 --> 02:38:23,680
Speaker 4: was in the was working with the premature babies at

3242
02:38:23,680 --> 02:38:25,920
Speaker 4: that time. Yeah, you can find infuse with him. It's

3243
02:38:26,080 --> 02:38:29,000
Speaker 4: just it's like, I would not recommend reading it venless

3244
02:38:29,000 --> 02:38:30,720
Speaker 4: you want to traumatize yourself. Is honestly one of the

3245
02:38:30,800 --> 02:38:33,760
Speaker 4: most horrible things I've ever had to see about.

3246
02:38:34,400 --> 02:38:39,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nightmarish stuff, and I mean a lot of

3247
02:38:39,600 --> 02:38:43,199
Speaker 2: these are right. The Rome statues continues with committing outrages

3248
02:38:43,280 --> 02:38:46,880
Speaker 2: upon personal dignity and particular humiliating the degrading treatment. And

3249
02:38:46,959 --> 02:38:50,120
Speaker 2: my god, there's a lot of examples of that from Gaza.

3250
02:38:50,400 --> 02:38:54,160
Speaker 2: Committing rape, sexual slavery, and forced prostitution, forced pregnancy as

3251
02:38:54,240 --> 02:38:57,199
Speaker 2: to find an Article seven paragraph too, and forced sterilization

3252
02:38:57,360 --> 02:38:59,960
Speaker 2: or any other form of sexual violence also constitutes a

3253
02:39:00,040 --> 02:39:03,240
Speaker 2: great breach of the Geneva Conventions. Utilizing the presence of

3254
02:39:03,280 --> 02:39:06,080
Speaker 2: a civilian or other protected person to render certain points,

3255
02:39:06,160 --> 02:39:09,560
Speaker 2: areas or military forces immune from military operations, So using

3256
02:39:09,600 --> 02:39:12,960
Speaker 2: civilians as shields, right, if you're hiding military forces among

3257
02:39:12,959 --> 02:39:16,160
Speaker 2: a civilian populace, you know that is also a war crime.

3258
02:39:16,800 --> 02:39:20,480
Speaker 2: Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, material medical units, you know,

3259
02:39:20,600 --> 02:39:24,600
Speaker 2: that's supposed to be illegal. Starvation for starvation of civilians

3260
02:39:24,720 --> 02:39:27,280
Speaker 2: is supposed to be illegal. And conscripting or enlisting children

3261
02:39:27,320 --> 02:39:29,680
Speaker 2: under the age of fifteen years old into the national forces,

3262
02:39:29,720 --> 02:39:32,800
Speaker 2: which I've noticed that, you know, when I would report

3263
02:39:32,840 --> 02:39:35,279
Speaker 2: on the YPG, some of the people that I reported

3264
02:39:35,320 --> 02:39:38,040
Speaker 2: on that were like seventeen and people like using child soldiers.

3265
02:39:38,080 --> 02:39:40,080
Speaker 2: You can enlisted the British Army at sixteen.

3266
02:39:40,200 --> 02:39:44,000
Speaker 4: That's not legal, Yeah, you seventeen year olds have always

3267
02:39:44,120 --> 02:39:47,360
Speaker 4: been allowed to do war. Yeah, I think they don't

3268
02:39:47,400 --> 02:39:51,880
Speaker 4: deploy them, right, certainly not sixteen year olds, right, yeah,

3269
02:39:52,000 --> 02:39:54,800
Speaker 4: But then the yeah, pea, and it's I've often women

3270
02:39:54,840 --> 02:39:56,520
Speaker 4: at she's off in the witepga, right, because they've come

3271
02:39:56,560 --> 02:39:59,360
Speaker 4: from abusive homes, and they also make an FM not

3272
02:39:59,440 --> 02:40:02,680
Speaker 4: to deploy I understand, yes, yes, but you are theoretically

3273
02:40:02,720 --> 02:40:05,200
Speaker 4: you're allowed to deploy sixteen year olds, right, yeah, so

3274
02:40:05,879 --> 02:40:10,520
Speaker 4: at least as regards international law. So and then of

3275
02:40:10,600 --> 02:40:13,520
Speaker 4: course we get to kind of some of the some

3276
02:40:13,640 --> 02:40:15,960
Speaker 4: of our our final war crimes, which you know, I

3277
02:40:16,040 --> 02:40:18,720
Speaker 4: haven't gone over a comprehensive list, but this gives you

3278
02:40:18,840 --> 02:40:21,640
Speaker 4: a good list of the things covered, you know, between

3279
02:40:22,200 --> 02:40:26,440
Speaker 4: the various different statutes and international agreements. Violation to life

3280
02:40:26,480 --> 02:40:29,360
Speaker 4: in person in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel

3281
02:40:29,400 --> 02:40:33,680
Speaker 4: treatment and torture, committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular

3282
02:40:33,840 --> 02:40:38,360
Speaker 4: humiliating or degrading treatment, which is maybe the most common

3283
02:40:38,400 --> 02:40:41,080
Speaker 4: by numbers thing that I see happening at Gaza. Right, certainly,

3284
02:40:41,160 --> 02:40:44,680
Speaker 4: not like as it does, you know, the killing is

3285
02:40:44,760 --> 02:40:48,200
Speaker 4: much more offensive, but like there's so many examples of

3286
02:40:48,400 --> 02:40:52,440
Speaker 4: like outrages upon personal dignity, you know, the taking of hostages,

3287
02:40:52,800 --> 02:40:55,519
Speaker 4: the passing of sentences, and the carrying out of executions

3288
02:40:55,560 --> 02:40:59,440
Speaker 4: without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court. And

3289
02:40:59,560 --> 02:41:03,720
Speaker 4: then you get to paragraph two, there's a note like

3290
02:41:03,879 --> 02:41:05,480
Speaker 4: after this all of this stuff that like, you're not

3291
02:41:05,480 --> 02:41:07,800
Speaker 4: supposed to do violence to life in person, committing outrages

3292
02:41:07,879 --> 02:41:12,120
Speaker 4: upon personal dignity, taking hostages, doing summary executions. And then

3293
02:41:12,160 --> 02:41:14,040
Speaker 4: there's a note that like, this does not apply. This

3294
02:41:14,120 --> 02:41:17,400
Speaker 4: applies only to armed conflicts and not situations of internal

3295
02:41:17,440 --> 02:41:20,400
Speaker 4: disturbances and tensions such as riots, isolated and sporadic acts

3296
02:41:20,400 --> 02:41:22,880
Speaker 4: of violence or other acts of a similar nature, which

3297
02:41:22,959 --> 02:41:25,000
Speaker 4: is fun to me because it's like the international agreements

3298
02:41:25,040 --> 02:41:26,560
Speaker 4: like well, I mean, countries can do this to their

3299
02:41:26,560 --> 02:41:28,640
Speaker 4: own people if they want, right, Like, that's not a problem,

3300
02:41:28,720 --> 02:41:32,280
Speaker 4: you know, go, which I guess is probably we're in

3301
02:41:32,360 --> 02:41:34,320
Speaker 4: a gray area with some of what Israel does to

3302
02:41:34,360 --> 02:41:37,800
Speaker 4: Palestinians here because like one of the things that has

3303
02:41:37,840 --> 02:41:39,800
Speaker 4: been happening for a long time is continue to happen,

3304
02:41:39,800 --> 02:41:42,400
Speaker 4: as there are presently ninety five hundred at least Palestinians

3305
02:41:42,440 --> 02:41:45,720
Speaker 4: from the occupied West Bank in captivity prior to October seventh,

3306
02:41:45,760 --> 02:41:48,280
Speaker 4: that was just fifty two hundred people, so this escalated

3307
02:41:48,320 --> 02:41:51,039
Speaker 4: significantly after that. Most of these were people who had

3308
02:41:51,080 --> 02:41:54,320
Speaker 4: been arrested before for stuff literally like waving a flag

3309
02:41:54,520 --> 02:41:57,360
Speaker 4: or like posting on social media in sympathy with Gaza.

3310
02:41:57,760 --> 02:42:00,840
Speaker 4: Fifteen of these people have died since October seventh. A

3311
02:42:01,000 --> 02:42:03,640
Speaker 4: number of them have been tortured and beaten. This is

3312
02:42:03,680 --> 02:42:05,480
Speaker 4: the kind of thing that could be a war crime,

3313
02:42:05,520 --> 02:42:08,360
Speaker 4: except for again, you have that little note that like

3314
02:42:08,480 --> 02:42:11,200
Speaker 4: this doesn't apply to internal disturbances in the West Bank,

3315
02:42:11,240 --> 02:42:14,119
Speaker 4: you can say that that's an internal disturbance, right, which

3316
02:42:14,200 --> 02:42:18,120
Speaker 4: is you know, shit, yeah, yeah, I don't love that.

3317
02:42:18,240 --> 02:42:22,000
Speaker 4: That's the way that that works. And yeah, it's it's

3318
02:42:22,000 --> 02:42:24,040
Speaker 4: one of those things. And another thing, you know, to

3319
02:42:24,160 --> 02:42:25,880
Speaker 4: be fair here, one thing I should note, because we're

3320
02:42:25,920 --> 02:42:28,760
Speaker 4: about to talk about the actual ICC investigation that's going on,

3321
02:42:29,400 --> 02:42:31,680
Speaker 4: the taking of hostages is a war crime. So it's

3322
02:42:32,040 --> 02:42:34,800
Speaker 4: there's been a lot of talk about because there's been

3323
02:42:34,840 --> 02:42:38,800
Speaker 4: disinformation about how many civilians did Hamas kill, right, like.

3324
02:42:38,800 --> 02:42:41,039
Speaker 2: How many we had that bleak period. If we were

3325
02:42:41,120 --> 02:42:43,560
Speaker 2: arguing looking at dead babies and arguing where those babies

3326
02:42:43,600 --> 02:42:46,440
Speaker 2: beheaded or their heads just come off because they burnt

3327
02:42:46,480 --> 02:42:50,200
Speaker 2: to like, Hamas definitely committed war crimes, and we know

3328
02:42:50,240 --> 02:42:52,880
Speaker 2: that because they admitted to them. Because they the Hamas

3329
02:42:52,920 --> 02:42:55,720
Speaker 2: does not deny that they took hostages. That's a war crime.

3330
02:42:55,920 --> 02:42:59,400
Speaker 2: Right Again, should you be as offended by the taking

3331
02:42:59,440 --> 02:43:02,199
Speaker 2: of hostage as the killing of thirty five thousand people

3332
02:43:02,240 --> 02:43:04,520
Speaker 2: from the sky? Well, no, But I would also say

3333
02:43:04,600 --> 02:43:07,000
Speaker 2: that the taking of hostages is not like tear gassing

3334
02:43:07,040 --> 02:43:09,959
Speaker 2: a sniper. I think that that's bad. You shouldn't take

3335
02:43:10,040 --> 02:43:12,800
Speaker 2: civilian hostages. Yeah, that makes sense as a war crime

3336
02:43:12,879 --> 02:43:15,760
Speaker 2: to me. Now this kind of leads us to the

3337
02:43:15,959 --> 02:43:19,280
Speaker 2: crux of our discussion, which is like, should you actually

3338
02:43:19,400 --> 02:43:21,160
Speaker 2: care about what a war crime is and isn't?

3339
02:43:21,400 --> 02:43:21,520
Speaker 3: Right?

3340
02:43:22,080 --> 02:43:25,160
Speaker 2: And I'm going to argue yes, even though, as we've

3341
02:43:25,200 --> 02:43:27,640
Speaker 2: made the case here, it's not a perfect thing. This

3342
02:43:27,760 --> 02:43:29,840
Speaker 2: is not a perfect Whether or not something is a

3343
02:43:29,920 --> 02:43:32,400
Speaker 2: war crime does not make it a perfect measure of morality.

3344
02:43:32,760 --> 02:43:35,800
Speaker 2: I don't think a soldier tossing a tear gas grenade

3345
02:43:35,840 --> 02:43:37,720
Speaker 2: and a sniper because they don't want to get shot

3346
02:43:37,760 --> 02:43:42,400
Speaker 2: by a sniper is like a thing that is horrifying

3347
02:43:42,520 --> 02:43:45,880
Speaker 2: to me. And I do think that, for example, the

3348
02:43:46,080 --> 02:43:49,400
Speaker 2: use of shrapnel shells is horrifying to me, having seen

3349
02:43:49,480 --> 02:43:52,519
Speaker 2: what happens to people when they get gutted by shrapnel.

3350
02:43:52,520 --> 02:43:55,160
Speaker 2: I don't think those are good, and I know what

3351
02:43:55,240 --> 02:43:57,320
Speaker 2: I think is a worse thing to do. But even

3352
02:43:57,480 --> 02:43:59,640
Speaker 2: with that taken into account, I think that a lot

3353
02:43:59,680 --> 02:44:02,360
Speaker 2: of this does matter, and that it is good that

3354
02:44:03,200 --> 02:44:06,560
Speaker 2: the ICC has recently announced a set of warrants both

3355
02:44:06,640 --> 02:44:11,880
Speaker 2: against Benjamin Netanyahu and against three Hamas leaders, right. And

3356
02:44:12,120 --> 02:44:13,960
Speaker 2: I saw some people saying when this got announced that

3357
02:44:14,000 --> 02:44:16,600
Speaker 2: there were like these warrants against these Hamas leaders alongside

3358
02:44:16,640 --> 02:44:19,440
Speaker 2: net Yahoo and his defense minister Yo have gallant that like, oh,

3359
02:44:19,480 --> 02:44:24,000
Speaker 2: they're both sides in it. No, Hamas took hostages. If

3360
02:44:24,040 --> 02:44:26,200
Speaker 2: the ICC is going after Israel for its clear and

3361
02:44:26,240 --> 02:44:29,840
Speaker 2: obvious war crimes, we know that Hamas took hostages. It's

3362
02:44:29,920 --> 02:44:32,560
Speaker 2: not wrong that the ICC would issue a warrant there.

3363
02:44:32,640 --> 02:44:35,520
Speaker 2: That's their job, right, And I think that that actually

3364
02:44:35,920 --> 02:44:38,520
Speaker 2: it's kind of important to do that because if you don't,

3365
02:44:38,560 --> 02:44:40,720
Speaker 2: the Israelis are going to be like, well, they took hostages.

3366
02:44:40,760 --> 02:44:43,280
Speaker 2: That's definitely a war crime. The ICC is invalid because

3367
02:44:43,280 --> 02:44:44,200
Speaker 2: they're not prosecuting this.

3368
02:44:44,640 --> 02:44:44,800
Speaker 3: Now.

3369
02:44:45,400 --> 02:44:49,160
Speaker 2: The reality is that not only has Israel is now

3370
02:44:49,320 --> 02:44:50,920
Speaker 2: Israel kind of gearing up to go to war with

3371
02:44:50,959 --> 02:44:53,000
Speaker 2: the International Criminal Court, that they have been doing that

3372
02:44:53,200 --> 02:44:58,680
Speaker 2: for years prior to the to October seventh, right, and

3373
02:44:58,840 --> 02:45:01,120
Speaker 2: in fact, a couple of years ago, I think in

3374
02:45:01,240 --> 02:45:06,200
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, the ICC launched an investigation into Israeli

3375
02:45:06,560 --> 02:45:07,840
Speaker 2: actions in Gaza.

3376
02:45:08,040 --> 02:45:08,160
Speaker 3: Right.

3377
02:45:08,440 --> 02:45:13,440
Speaker 2: This started when the former prosecutor of the ICC, Fatu Bensuda,

3378
02:45:14,160 --> 02:45:17,240
Speaker 2: made the call to like yes, start a formal investigation,

3379
02:45:17,959 --> 02:45:20,640
Speaker 2: and that culminated a couple of weeks ago in the

3380
02:45:20,879 --> 02:45:24,120
Speaker 2: ICC issuing an arrest warrant for Benjamin Nan Yahoo. And

3381
02:45:24,240 --> 02:45:27,760
Speaker 2: when that process started, there is evidence that the former

3382
02:45:27,840 --> 02:45:29,280
Speaker 2: head of the Massad, the guy who was running the

3383
02:45:29,280 --> 02:45:33,960
Speaker 2: massade at the time, Yo C. Cohen, made contact with

3384
02:45:34,280 --> 02:45:38,080
Speaker 2: an ICC prosecutor and basically threatened him. And I'm actually

3385
02:45:38,080 --> 02:45:40,760
Speaker 2: I'm going to read a quote from a Guardian article here.

3386
02:45:41,400 --> 02:45:44,039
Speaker 2: Cohen's personal involvement in the operation against the ICC took

3387
02:45:44,080 --> 02:45:46,000
Speaker 2: place when he was the director of the Massad. His

3388
02:45:46,080 --> 02:45:48,480
Speaker 2: activities were authorized at a high level and justified on

3389
02:45:48,560 --> 02:45:51,320
Speaker 2: the basis the court posed a threat of prosecutions against

3390
02:45:51,360 --> 02:45:55,480
Speaker 2: military personnel. According to a senior Israeli official. Another Israeli

3391
02:45:55,560 --> 02:45:57,840
Speaker 2: source briefed on the operation against Bensuda said that the

3392
02:45:57,879 --> 02:46:01,120
Speaker 2: massad's objective was to compromise the prosecutter or enlist her

3393
02:46:01,120 --> 02:46:03,760
Speaker 2: as someone who could cooperate with Israel's demands. A third

3394
02:46:03,800 --> 02:46:05,879
Speaker 2: source familiar with the operation said Cohen was acting as

3395
02:46:05,920 --> 02:46:09,400
Speaker 2: Netanya Who's unofficial messenger. Cohen who was one of Netanya

3396
02:46:09,440 --> 02:46:11,280
Speaker 2: Who's closest allies at the time, and it is emerging

3397
02:46:11,320 --> 02:46:13,440
Speaker 2: as a political force in his own right, and Israel

3398
02:46:13,560 --> 02:46:16,320
Speaker 2: personally led them as sod's involvement in an almost decade

3399
02:46:16,360 --> 02:46:19,680
Speaker 2: long campaign by the country to undermine the court. According

3400
02:46:19,680 --> 02:46:21,880
Speaker 2: to account shared with ICC officials, he's alleged to have

3401
02:46:21,959 --> 02:46:23,840
Speaker 2: told her, you should help us and let us take

3402
02:46:23,920 --> 02:46:25,360
Speaker 2: care of you. You don't want to be getting into

3403
02:46:25,400 --> 02:46:28,120
Speaker 2: things that could compromise your security or that if your family,

3404
02:46:28,480 --> 02:46:32,440
Speaker 2: which is very much mob shit, right like, it couldn't

3405
02:46:32,520 --> 02:46:35,720
Speaker 2: be more mob shit. And it's like, I don't actually

3406
02:46:35,760 --> 02:46:38,600
Speaker 2: think that is a war crime. I don't even know,

3407
02:46:38,680 --> 02:46:41,040
Speaker 2: because I guess they didn't even think anyone would do that,

3408
02:46:41,240 --> 02:46:43,920
Speaker 2: right like that, you would just like, hey, you know,

3409
02:46:44,000 --> 02:46:48,400
Speaker 2: we could break your fucking legs, you know, misprosecutor a

3410
02:46:48,520 --> 02:46:50,840
Speaker 2: lady like we the Masad. I don't even know that

3411
02:46:50,959 --> 02:46:53,800
Speaker 2: that because, at least from my reading over of the

3412
02:46:53,920 --> 02:46:56,360
Speaker 2: Rome Statutes, that's not listed. Maybe they should add that

3413
02:46:56,400 --> 02:46:59,440
Speaker 2: one in there. But yeah, this has been a brief

3414
02:46:59,480 --> 02:47:02,240
Speaker 2: overview of what be a war crime. I hope you

3415
02:47:02,320 --> 02:47:04,720
Speaker 2: find this helpful in your discussions of what be a

3416
02:47:04,800 --> 02:47:06,440
Speaker 2: war crime. But I do kind of want to end

3417
02:47:06,480 --> 02:47:09,240
Speaker 2: on the note again, does any of this matter? What's

3418
02:47:09,280 --> 02:47:11,720
Speaker 2: going to Well? No, do I think that, like Benjamin

3419
02:47:11,760 --> 02:47:15,520
Speaker 2: Natanyaho's going to actually be taken to Denhag and fucking chains.

3420
02:47:16,000 --> 02:47:18,959
Speaker 2: I mean maybe someday. Actually, I don't think that that's impossible.

3421
02:47:19,000 --> 02:47:20,400
Speaker 2: I don't think we should give up hope for that,

3422
02:47:21,040 --> 02:47:23,800
Speaker 2: and this is a necessary precursor to that. And I

3423
02:47:23,840 --> 02:47:26,119
Speaker 2: think it's good. I think the evidence that this is valuable.

3424
02:47:26,160 --> 02:47:27,960
Speaker 2: If you actually, if you want my best case for

3425
02:47:28,120 --> 02:47:33,240
Speaker 2: why this matters, Israel spent ten years previous to the

3426
02:47:33,360 --> 02:47:38,360
Speaker 2: announcement of this warrant running devoting Masad resources to an

3427
02:47:38,440 --> 02:47:42,920
Speaker 2: undergrand campaign to sabotage and threaten the ICC. That means

3428
02:47:43,000 --> 02:47:46,720
Speaker 2: they see this as a threat. They consider prosecutions like

3429
02:47:46,800 --> 02:47:50,600
Speaker 2: this to be dangerous to them. And that means you

3430
02:47:50,640 --> 02:47:54,800
Speaker 2: should at least passively support what the ICC is doing here.

3431
02:47:55,200 --> 02:48:00,760
Speaker 2: Right net Yahoo's regime considers this a threat to their operations,

3432
02:48:00,959 --> 02:48:02,959
Speaker 2: to what they're doing in Gaza, and I think that's

3433
02:48:03,080 --> 02:48:04,560
Speaker 2: enough of a reason to think that it's good.

3434
02:48:05,400 --> 02:48:05,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

3435
02:48:05,720 --> 02:48:08,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, if they think it's going to stop them murdering civilians,

3436
02:48:09,160 --> 02:48:11,560
Speaker 4: then yeah, it's good that we don't need to beat

3437
02:48:11,600 --> 02:48:14,880
Speaker 4: around the bush too much. Like anyway, Yeah, it would

3438
02:48:14,879 --> 02:48:17,480
Speaker 4: be nice to see someone who wasn't from Africa prosecuted

3439
02:48:17,520 --> 02:48:17,920
Speaker 4: at the Hague.

3440
02:48:17,959 --> 02:48:19,800
Speaker 2: That would be Hey, yeah, they got those serbians, right,

3441
02:48:19,840 --> 02:48:21,959
Speaker 2: I did get they got a couple of serbs.

3442
02:48:22,400 --> 02:48:24,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's true.

3443
02:48:24,920 --> 02:48:27,480
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, yeah, let's throw an Israeli or too and

3444
02:48:27,520 --> 02:48:29,400
Speaker 2: there and yeah some of those some OSK guys. I'm like,

3445
02:48:29,480 --> 02:48:32,800
Speaker 2: look something, let's try to do something.

3446
02:48:32,920 --> 02:48:35,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, maybe maybe let's let's make a statement that

3447
02:48:35,720 --> 02:48:39,039
Speaker 4: it's bad to murder and kidnap civilians, it's bad to.

3448
02:48:39,600 --> 02:48:43,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. We're very critical of the idea

3449
02:48:43,720 --> 02:48:45,960
Speaker 2: that there ever was a rules based international order, but

3450
02:48:46,000 --> 02:48:47,440
Speaker 2: I think we should try that sometime.

3451
02:48:48,240 --> 02:48:49,600
Speaker 4: It's been nice to have some rules.

3452
02:48:49,959 --> 02:48:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, James, anything else to add before we cut

3453
02:48:53,040 --> 02:48:53,360
Speaker 2: out of here.

3454
02:48:53,720 --> 02:48:55,000
Speaker 4: Don't engage in war crimes.

3455
02:48:55,560 --> 02:48:57,840
Speaker 2: Don't commit a war crime. Yeah, don't commit a war crime.

3456
02:48:57,920 --> 02:48:58,880
Speaker 2: Avoid that if you can.

3457
02:48:59,280 --> 02:49:02,080
Speaker 4: Don't engage in war, if you didn't have to, really.

3458
02:49:01,959 --> 02:49:05,040
Speaker 2: Try to avoid war. Because one of the things reading

3459
02:49:05,120 --> 02:49:07,800
Speaker 2: through this, I think about all the things I've seen

3460
02:49:07,920 --> 02:49:09,960
Speaker 2: that I'm like, well, I could argue that that was

3461
02:49:10,000 --> 02:49:13,200
Speaker 2: a war cry. You know, they happen a lot, it

3462
02:49:13,320 --> 02:49:16,080
Speaker 2: turns out, or at least edge cases, are most of

3463
02:49:16,160 --> 02:49:24,600
Speaker 2: the things you see in war. Yes, anyway, we're done. Hey,

3464
02:49:24,760 --> 02:49:27,800
Speaker 2: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3465
02:49:27,879 --> 02:49:29,520
Speaker 2: now until the heat death of the universe.

3466
02:49:30,160 --> 02:49:32,480
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3467
02:49:32,760 --> 02:49:35,400
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3468
02:49:35,480 --> 02:49:37,640
Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

3469
02:49:37,720 --> 02:49:41,080
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3470
02:49:41,360 --> 02:49:43,440
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

3471
02:49:43,560 --> 02:49:47,560
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.