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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, A production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio Happy Friday. I'm Tracy B. Wilson

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Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Fryding. Uh. This week on the show,

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Speaker 1: we talked about our sin Away, the second and the

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Speaker 1: very convoluted Ptolemaic Dynasty. I'm so glad you did this one.

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Speaker 1: I did not mention it to you because she was

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Speaker 1: on my list for a long time, and I did

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Speaker 1: what you initially did, which is that you looked at

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Speaker 1: it and got very overwhelmed and went later. Except I

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Speaker 1: look at it give very overwhelmed to go. I can't.

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Speaker 1: I just can't. Well. So UM. As I started working

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Speaker 1: on this, it felt like it had some of the

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Speaker 1: same beats as the Zoe and Theodora episode that we

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Speaker 1: had just done. Um. And so in other circumstances, I

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Speaker 1: might have put this off a little bit more for later.

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Speaker 1: But very fortunately during the pandemic, I have generally been

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Speaker 1: able to get every resource sign needed, or I've had

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Speaker 1: enough enough other stuff going on that I've been like, okay,

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Speaker 1: I can just I can put this off until I

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Speaker 1: can get to that library again. UM. There's one thing

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Speaker 1: in particular that has been on my on my list

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Speaker 1: for a really long time. There is one specific book

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Speaker 1: that I really want. There is one library that is

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Speaker 1: near me that has it, and just I just can't

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Speaker 1: get to that library right now. But I have had

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Speaker 1: our sin Away on my list for a long time

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Speaker 1: and I would kind of poke at it. And then

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Speaker 1: I realized there was a book that was in my

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Speaker 1: library network, like my local library network that that shares

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Speaker 1: resources among themselves, um, and for a long time that

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Speaker 1: wasn't operating because of the pandemic. It has started again

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Speaker 1: and the library has started up just a very lovely

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Speaker 1: contactless pickup system for the books. Um. And so I

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Speaker 1: was like, great, it says it's going to take a

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Speaker 1: little bit longer for request to be fulfilled. I'll go

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Speaker 1: ahead and put this in and I'll just go ahead

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Speaker 1: and do this episode when it gets here. And then

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Speaker 1: it turned out to get here actually pretty quickly, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, I got to do this episode

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Speaker 1: now because it's a library book. It's going to need

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Speaker 1: to go back in two weeks. Um. That was thing

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Speaker 1: number one. Thing number two was you and I record

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Speaker 1: typically on Tuesday mornings, since I already had this library

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Speaker 1: book and I already had all this other stuff that

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Speaker 1: I had pulled some research. This episode you and I

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Speaker 1: recorded on Tuesday morning, and then on Tuesday afternoon I

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Speaker 1: started to try to read about the Ptolemy's and everyone

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Speaker 1: was named Ptolemy, and my brain just rebelled. It was like, noe,

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Speaker 1: We're done, done for the day. You want to try

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Speaker 1: to concentrate, it's not going to happen. You should just

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Speaker 1: call it a day and go take a ride on

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Speaker 1: your exercise bike because whatever you're attempting to work on,

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Speaker 1: it's not gonna work. Uh. After I had a nice

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Speaker 1: you know sleep, got up on Wednesday morning, I had

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Speaker 1: a lot more success with it. Still, their family tree

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Speaker 1: is like one of those ficuses with a braided trunk.

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Speaker 1: It is it's hard to pull it apart. So I'm

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Speaker 1: thankful to you for having done that all the Ptolemy's.

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Speaker 1: It's rare. I mean, I frequently when I'm writing episodes

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Speaker 1: will try to just like when we come back from

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Speaker 1: sponsor break, kind of just like nudge whatever is the

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Speaker 1: thing back to the top of people's brains. Because I

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Speaker 1: know you're a lot of people listen to podcasts while

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Speaker 1: they're doing other stuff. Maybe you're a little distracted taking

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Speaker 1: a walk or doing dishes, or you know, people whose

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Speaker 1: jobs allow for podcasts to be listened to while they

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Speaker 1: were Like, people are distracted a lot of times, and

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Speaker 1: so like a lot of times, repeat somebody's full name,

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Speaker 1: or repeat some little detail, like just a little thing

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Speaker 1: to kind of resurface what was happening before the break.

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Speaker 1: This is the first time I feel like I have

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Speaker 1: had to have a whole paragraph of sort of a

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Speaker 1: like Buttercup is marrying Humperdink in little less than half

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Speaker 1: an hour recap, which is what this felt like to

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Speaker 1: me after the second ad break. Uh, all the spindles. Um,

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Speaker 1: It's one of those things, right, this comes up all

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Speaker 1: the time. And I know I probably always sound like

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Speaker 1: a hippie, but I'm always like, why would anyone want

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Speaker 1: to seek out power in this structure? Run Away? I

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Speaker 1: mean it just sounds, um so like a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of our sin Away of Egypt and Masodon.

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Speaker 1: That's the book that I got from the library by

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth donald Ley Carney. Um, like a lot of the

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Speaker 1: book is not directly about her, because we know so

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Speaker 1: little about her, and so much of it is about

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Speaker 1: like here is all of the total chaos and stress

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Speaker 1: that was going on in her life, as you know,

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Speaker 1: when she was a child and the other wives were

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Speaker 1: all trying to guarantee some kind of future for their

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Speaker 1: sons and the dynasty like all of that just sounds

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Speaker 1: exhausting and terrifying to have to try to live through,

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Speaker 1: especially when she was like a daughter in this whole

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Speaker 1: system and had very little agency for anything with her life. Um.

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Speaker 1: And it makes me think about other women we have

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Speaker 1: talked about in other context, like prior host to the

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Speaker 1: show did a lot of stuff about the medic chiese

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Speaker 1: UM and the stuff that that Katherine de Medici did

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Speaker 1: that was regarded as just entirely underhanded, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of it was like trying to guarantee some kind of

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Speaker 1: future for her children. Right. I do wonder if if

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Speaker 1: the disappearance of her son Ptolemy, isn't him noping out

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Speaker 1: of that structure a little bit, being like I don't

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Speaker 1: really need the power here. I can go maybe just

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Speaker 1: have one wife and have a family. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: maybe seems easier. We're gonna start just a little little

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Speaker 1: olive farm. Maybe it sounds heavenly if you were raised

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Speaker 1: in that doesn't that sound like just the ultimate peaceful

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Speaker 1: escape from all of it? But we don't really know.

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Speaker 1: He may have had a whole other agenda what I

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Speaker 1: would do in that situation. Well, and there are so

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Speaker 1: many people named Ptolemy that it's it's hard to know

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Speaker 1: for sure what exactly became a film. So anyway, that's

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Speaker 1: our sin away. Um. I feel like the most tangliest

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Speaker 1: dynasty that we've talked about on the show. This week

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Speaker 1: we talked about Cecaretta Jones. I really really came to

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Speaker 1: adore her while researching her. Um. I have to say,

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Speaker 1: she was a very striking woman, Like she knew how

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Speaker 1: to wear a dress. Like I could look at pictures

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Speaker 1: of her all day because she was very, very beautiful,

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Speaker 1: but also just like had great style and like she's

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Speaker 1: just phenomenal. Um. There were a couple of things that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to mention that they didn't really quite make

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Speaker 1: it into the episode because it was running along and

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Speaker 1: you gotta cut something. One thing that I wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk about was the name of the Tennessee Jubilee Singers, UM,

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Speaker 1: because they were actually kind of coasting on the success

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Speaker 1: of another group, which was the Fisk Jubilee Singers, which

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Speaker 1: was a music group that had been touring to raise

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Speaker 1: money for construction and other projects at Fisk University and

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Speaker 1: was also an all black troup, and so they were

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Speaker 1: Everybody started putting Jubilee in their name, hoping that like

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Speaker 1: you would do it, and it actually became one of

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Speaker 1: those things that leads to some confusion in articles about her,

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Speaker 1: where people will say she was a member of the

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Speaker 1: Fisk Jubilee Singers and it's like, that's not true. Um.

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Speaker 1: But to further complicated, I don't even want to dog

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Speaker 1: any of those people that have written that, because there

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Speaker 1: were instances where she was performing in some of those

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Speaker 1: multi act bookings where the Fisk Singers also were, so

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Speaker 1: I understand how people would overlap them. Um. It just

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Speaker 1: was one of those things. I kept trying to untangle

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Speaker 1: it and I'm like this, wait, this says she is

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Speaker 1: a Fisk No, this is no. This definitely says she

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Speaker 1: was not. Um. It's a little bit tricky in that regard.

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Speaker 1: We talked in the episode about how often reviewers talked

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Speaker 1: about her looks. It's so unsettling and I shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: surprised because we've run into this before, but they almost

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Speaker 1: start to describe her. Some are very flourishy and a

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Speaker 1: little bit florid, and they talk about how beautiful she

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Speaker 1: is and whatnot, but others will only talk about that

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Speaker 1: after they have kind of analyzed her, almost as though

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Speaker 1: she were livestock, and it's so dehumanizing, like where they'll

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Speaker 1: even talk about like what her teeth looked like, and

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Speaker 1: like just really strange obsessive discussion of her, sometimes trying

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Speaker 1: to make it seem like they are not looking at

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Speaker 1: it in a racist way. But I'm like, I don't

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Speaker 1: know any other opera singer where you talked about her

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Speaker 1: teeth for a paragraph, like, I don't this is weird. Um.

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Speaker 1: One thing that's interesting, though, is that we talked about

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Speaker 1: the name Black Patty and how just unpleasant it is um,

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Speaker 1: particularly to modern ear. But it's interesting because when she

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Speaker 1: toured Europe, European critics were like, I don't like this name,

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Speaker 1: which was not something that she ran into as much

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Speaker 1: in the United States, although there were occasionally some, but

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Speaker 1: I mean they would call it out and be like,

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Speaker 1: I don't understand why she's billing herself this way. This

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Speaker 1: devalues her. Why is she doing this? Uh, which is

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Speaker 1: just an interesting insight into the different mindsets of different

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Speaker 1: places at that time with regard to to race. But

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Speaker 1: also there was that issue that she talked about where

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Speaker 1: to her, it wasn't necessarily that she took offense because

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Speaker 1: it made it about her being black. She just didn't

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Speaker 1: want to be compared to another singer as the way

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Speaker 1: she was booked, um, because that's devaluing in a whole

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Speaker 1: other way. We also mentioned how she talked about and

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Speaker 1: sidestepped issues of really discussing color and race in a

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Speaker 1: lot of interviews. She would definitely a rest things. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we referenced points where she was like, black people shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be treated like this as an audience member, um. But

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Speaker 1: she really did seem to think that if she could

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Speaker 1: just go out and be a black woman who was

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Speaker 1: singing to mixed audiences, that that was going to help

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Speaker 1: push the needle a little bit um without necessarily. She

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Speaker 1: kind of took that attitude of if you're too assertive

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Speaker 1: about it, you're going to do more harm than good.

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Speaker 1: But if they just see me, then then this will

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Speaker 1: smooth the way a little bit. There are certainly discussions

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Speaker 1: to be had around the merit of that approach versus UM.

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Speaker 1: But it is interesting that she really just saw like

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Speaker 1: music as an ambassadorial effort to fix some of the

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Speaker 1: problems in society. UM. Her troubadours really were in ways

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Speaker 1: that were often not called out or particularly well documented.

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Speaker 1: Breaking a lot of those those grounds where they would

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Speaker 1: be the first black troope to appear in various theaters,

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Speaker 1: But it wasn't ever like something that they drew attention

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Speaker 1: to because she she didn't want that. It seems she

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Speaker 1: didn't want it. I don't want to presume that I

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Speaker 1: know what she wanted, but it seems that they did

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Speaker 1: not bring that up in the press and say we

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Speaker 1: are the first company of black performers that. Um, there

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Speaker 1: was one story that I saw that was kind of funny,

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Speaker 1: and I thought it would be a good place to

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Speaker 1: to land. At least my part of this discussion, which

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Speaker 1: is that there was one particular theater where they were

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Speaker 1: the first I think not only were they the first

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Speaker 1: black troope to perform there, but the theater had made

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Speaker 1: the concession that they would not segregate the audience. But

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Speaker 1: the poor ushers didn't know what to do because they

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Speaker 1: had no training on how to handle it and so

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Speaker 1: there was some panic and it was like they just

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Speaker 1: got through the night. But the ushers were like, we

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Speaker 1: don't We've only done segregated. We don't know how to

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Speaker 1: do this without people yelling at us. And I'm not

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Speaker 1: sure how this is gonna work. But it worked out

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Speaker 1: again singing, singing, smooth that went out. But it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting story that, um, you know, we often talk about

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Speaker 1: when people uh sort of want to want to strip

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Speaker 1: away the old ways of doing things that are inherently racist,

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Speaker 1: and how there is a logistics question that often comes

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Speaker 1: up in there right about. I feel for those poor

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Speaker 1: rushers who didn't know what to do with themselves or

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Speaker 1: their guests, um, and probably being yelled at by people

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Speaker 1: who did like where they were sitting, yeah, with no

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Speaker 1: like advanced training of like Okay, next week, we're going

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Speaker 1: to have this thing and we're going to change our

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Speaker 1: policy and that's going to be hard. It was kind

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Speaker 1: of like tonight it's integrated. Wait what, Um, it would

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Speaker 1: be a little hard. Yeah. I kept being struck by

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Speaker 1: how many parallels there were in her story and things

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Speaker 1: that happened to her and the way the press talked

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Speaker 1: about her, and you know, things that you still hear

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Speaker 1: from performers of color today and how they're touring, lives

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Speaker 1: are and about how they're talked about in the press.

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Speaker 1: And it was one of those things where it just,

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Speaker 1: you know, reminded me that a lot of these same

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Speaker 1: underlying issues are still operating in in much the same

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Speaker 1: way as they were. Yeah, I mean, I think it's

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Speaker 1: easy for people living today. I have certainly done it

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Speaker 1: at times to think like, oh, people weren't enlightened and

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Speaker 1: they weren't thinking about things in this way a hundred

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Speaker 1: years ago, a hundred and fifty years ago. But then

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Speaker 1: you read accounts and they absolutely were. They were absolutely

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Speaker 1: people shouting about how foolish looking at people's race and

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Speaker 1: valuing them based on it. Were There were certainly people going, no,

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Speaker 1: we should be integrated. This is stupid. Um. Yes, So

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Speaker 1: it's a little heartbreaking because then you're like, well, then,

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Speaker 1: why haven't we got any farther than we have? Um?

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Speaker 1: I don't have a good answer for that one. I

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Speaker 1: mean I have some answers, they're unkind, but I still

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Speaker 1: don't know why we haven't gotten farther. I didn't And

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Speaker 1: on quite such a happy note, sorry, I'm dragged away.

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Speaker 1: You're happy. Note right is telling the funny story. I

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Speaker 1: will tell everyone, please go look at pictures of Cincaretta

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Speaker 1: if you can, with all of her medals, because they're beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It's like a beautiful, gorgeous Victorian gown with all of

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Speaker 1: these medals pinned to it, and it just looks cool.

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Speaker 1: And I'm just going to plant this for someone out there.

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Speaker 1: This would be a beautiful historical Halloween costume. Sure. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so we um, we are resurrecting our our social media

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Speaker 1: that have Laine Fellow for too long been a bit languishy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah and uh And I had been getting pictures to

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Speaker 1: a company episodes this whole time, even though we somehow

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Speaker 1: never managed to put them anywhere. Um, and this morning

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Speaker 1: I got one of Cineretta and then I had already

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Speaker 1: read through that line, but I read through it a

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Speaker 1: second time. And when I read through it a second

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Speaker 1: time that the part about her about the metals becoming

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Speaker 1: this iconic look for her, and I was like, I

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Speaker 1: gotta could get a different picture. So I intentionally went

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Speaker 1: and got a different picture that has her in her

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Speaker 1: dressed with the metals pinned to the bodice. Beautiful. Uh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I hope people dresses her for Halloween. I hope people

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Speaker 1: dresses her for Tuesday. I love Victorian gown. And again

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Speaker 1: she had amazing style. Oh man, she had great style. Um,

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Speaker 1: so hopefully that's the scoop. So yeah, since it's Friday, everybody,

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Speaker 1: hope you have a good weekend. Whatever's on your plate. Uh,

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Speaker 1: we'll be back with a brand new episode. Well first,

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Speaker 1: we'll have a classic episode tomorrow and then we'll be

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Speaker 1: back with a brand new episode on Monday. Stuff you

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Speaker 1: missed An History Class is a production of I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I

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Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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Speaker 1: your favorite shows. H