1 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: The interesting divisions going on here in the United States 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: to tell us that this was one that you picked 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: up on, tell us what's going on here. 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 2: So Axios picked up on a polling analysis from a 5 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:18,639 Speaker 2: guy on substack, which I thought was really interesting because 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 2: the polls that he was colllating basically were everywhere yesterday. 7 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:26,599 Speaker 2: It was like it was almost like the Beltway didn't realize. 8 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 2: This is from Bruce Melman on his subtect, Bruce Melman 9 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 2: that subsec dot com. Then Axios picked up on it. 10 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 2: It's almost like people here in the Beltway, Ryan are 11 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 2: out of touch. He had picked up on this NBC 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 2: News poll, and then Axios ran this NBC News graph 13 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 2: from a deck that Bruce Melman reported on that's found 14 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: gen Z is less than half as likely as the 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 2: Baby Boomers to say patriotism, believe in God, and having 16 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: children are quote very important to them. Now, I think 17 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: where this is even more interesting is the massive decline. 18 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 2: So it's not just half as likely. It's that you 19 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: had Baby Boomers somewhere around sixty seventy six percent when 20 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: it came to the questions of whether patriotism was quote 21 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,400 Speaker 2: very important, seventy six percent people between the ages of 22 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 2: eighteen and twenty six thirty two percent, So yes, less 23 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 2: than half is likely. That's coming down from a very 24 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 2: high level seventy six percent. Belief in God and religion 25 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 2: sixty five percent to twenty six percent. Huge difference there 26 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 2: having children quote being very important fifty two percent to 27 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 2: twenty three percent. And another really big one here America 28 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 2: being the best place to live sixty six percent for 29 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 2: the baby boomers, thirty three percent for gen Z. That 30 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: again was from an NBC News poll that was done 31 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: by Public Opinion Strategies that Bruce Melman picked up on 32 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 2: and then actually was reported on, and people were just 33 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: sending like wildfire throughout like kind of DC media circles yesterday. 34 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 2: I'm not surprised at all by these numbers. I don't know, Brian, 35 00:01:58,600 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 2: Are you surprised at all by these numbers? 36 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: Did we cover this when it didn You flag this 37 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: for us when at first we've. 38 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 2: Covered similar ones, because it does repeatedly show up in polls. 39 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 2: This is probably the starkest divide that I've seen generationally. 40 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: It's not surprising, but when you're asking sort of big 41 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 2: questions patriotism and America are the best place to live 42 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: like very broad themes. To see it show up I think. 43 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously it's interesting, but it's not surprising at all. 44 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: And this reminds me of what we've talked about on 45 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: college campuses, and my perspective from the right on the 46 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 2: campus protests is washing a lot of this away as 47 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: anti semitism, lumping it all together with bigotry. When we 48 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: had that great conversation with Sofia Southi, one of the 49 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: organizers at Columbia, it's so abundantly clear that this is 50 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 2: not anti semitism from her and some of the other organizers. 51 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 2: Not to say there isn't actual bigotry and anti semitism, 52 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: and we had conversations about that too. It's disgusting. But 53 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:56,519 Speaker 2: from many of these students, they have an entirely different worldview. 54 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 2: They're approaching consensus. I mean, this is a flip flop. 55 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 2: Baby boomers have a consensus on whether America is the 56 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: best place to live or that patriotism is very important, 57 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 2: which they do. Basically, is there at seventy six percent 58 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 2: on that gen z not being at seventy six percent 59 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: on that is approaching a position of consensus on a worldview. 60 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 2: So no kidding. You know, there was polling that found 61 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 2: most of college students weren't protesting, they weren't in the encampments, 62 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 2: and that, you know, maybe the represent maybe the opinions 63 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 2: of some of the hardcore protesters weren't representative of their 64 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 2: peers broadly. That maybe the case. But what we're seeing 65 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 2: here is pretty clear as to why their other students weren't, 66 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: you know, picking them up and throwing them out of 67 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: their tents. And it's because there is this deep widespread 68 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 2: sentiment that America is not the best place to live, 69 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: that patriotism. 70 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: Is not very important, and there was related there was 71 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: an there's an interesting annual survey that comes out that 72 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: says that asks people how democratic their country is, and 73 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: then they'll say, these are the ten countries where you know, 74 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: people feel like the most democratic. 75 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 3: China was in the top ten. 76 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: Like Chinese people, because when people think of democracy, they 77 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: think of the ability basically of people, or I would 78 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: say that the ability of the government to respond to 79 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: the public's majoritarian wishes, like how What was fascinating is 80 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: that in the top ten there was no correlation between 81 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 1: the trappings of procedural democracy like midterm elections parliament, parliamentary elections, 82 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: presidential elections, and whether or not somebody felt like they 83 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: were in a democratic country. Like France was in the 84 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: bottom top ten they have elections. The US was not 85 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 1: in the top ten of feeling what people saying that 86 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: they felt like they lived in a democratic country. So 87 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 1: there were some that were, you know, procedurally democratic, but 88 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: there were others that were not. But I don't think 89 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: you can disconnect what those students are feeling from the 90 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: cost of college too. Like the whole glory of the 91 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: US for the post World War two era has been 92 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: our college system. 93 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: Take it to the middle class. 94 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 3: Ticket, take it the middle class. 95 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: Everybody will, all these old people say, it's the best 96 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: four years of their life. 97 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 2: Find your purpose, they fulfill your. 98 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: Calling, find themselves like they develop intellectually and spiritually. And 99 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 1: then they're thrown into them mall of the economy. 100 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:36,720 Speaker 3: But at least they're they're moving upwards. 101 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: Well, you're accruing terrifying debt with every year, right, but 102 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,360 Speaker 2: now you are accruing all of this debt and you're 103 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: worried that you're just downwardly mobile relative to previous generations. 104 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: And so the paradox of those numbers. Is that if 105 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: you compare kind of the median net worth of an 106 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: American twenty five year old or twenty year old to 107 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: basically anyone else in the world, the Americans are doing better. 108 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: They but they sense that they're losing ground constantly. The 109 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: thing is they it doesn't help to be told, well, 110 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: you're ahead now, right, and it's like you're like headed downhill. 111 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 2: But that's what. So you are ahead compared to other 112 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,680 Speaker 2: places in the world, you are not ahead compared to 113 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 2: what was happening and where you could have been in 114 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 2: a prior generation. So you see your grandparents. 115 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: Compare yourself to people around the world, you compare yourself 116 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 1: to previous generations and people here exactly. 117 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,359 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean I look at my grandparents' you know, 118 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 2: military career, owned a home and had seven kids on 119 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 2: one income in the walk area. Like that's incredible and 120 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 2: totally unattainable for anybody. Now, So when they can't do 121 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: an union, when you can't do that, you're looking at 122 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 2: sixty six percent of people and baby Bommers saying America 123 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: is the best place to live to thirty three percent. Now, 124 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 2: patriotism is going to decline, and then you see the 125 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 2: having children things, which freaks a lot of people on 126 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 2: the rite out only twenty three percent of gen Z 127 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 2: saying that's very important to them. Well, how are they 128 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 2: supposed to have kids when their ticket to the middle 129 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 2: class has left them thrown into the mall with the rungs, 130 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 2: having the rungs up the ladder, having been kicked out 131 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:19,239 Speaker 2: and broken. It's like, what did you think was going 132 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 2: to happen? What did you think was going to happen? 133 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: You look at decline and belief in God. I mean, 134 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 2: there's just chaos. To your point, this, Bruce Melman substack, 135 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 2: this one makes me the most sad in the sixth 136 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: chart Sunday thing that actually has picked up on. He said, 137 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: Americans under thirty rating their lives came in sixty second 138 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: among nations in the World Happiness Report. Americans sixty plus 139 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: ranked tenth. So if you're over sixty in America, you're 140 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: about tenth in the worldwide happiness ranking. If you're under thirty, 141 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 2: you're all the way down. It's sixty two. It's tragic. 142 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: You can understand why that shows up in the other 143 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 2: the other numbers pretty pretty easily. When you see such 144 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: a stark divide. 145 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: I found the top ten list here or not, maybe 146 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: not the whole top ten are no but Bertron the 147 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: Twitter account posted this. It's from the Alliance of Democracies 148 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 1: dot org. You can find find their report. The countries 149 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: whose citizens most perceive themselves as living in democracy are China, Switzerland, Singapore, Israel, Norway, Vietnam. 150 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: That's the that's the top that's the top list. There 151 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: in the Republic of Congo. For those seven countries, more 152 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: than seventy five percent of people are on the seven 153 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: to ten scale. Where they asked the question, think about 154 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 1: your country today, how democratic do you think it is? 155 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: We're zero, not at all democratic, very democratic. China is fascinating. 156 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: China and Switzerland next to each other, it's super interesting. 157 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: And then now here's the list of countries where less 158 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: than half of the people say they live in democracy 159 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 1: and which has all the trappings of procedural democracy. Pakistan, 160 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: which also has the trappings they hold elections. As we've 161 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: covered here, people are correct there not remotely democratic. France, Nigeria, Iran, Peru, 162 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: which recently had its president impeached after the first indigenous president. 163 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: Basically ever, in Peru, white people quickly impeached him. Morocco, Turkey, Ukraine, 164 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: they don't even have the procedural trappings of democracy anymore. 165 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 3: They'll get to that eventually. 166 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 2: They say yeah, and so does Blinken, and he's like, 167 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: watch this drive, but let's actually watch this solo. 168 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: I'm Hungary, which has elections, but the election elections are 169 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: controlled by the right wing government there. The media is 170 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: completely controlled by the right wing government there. There was 171 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: an effort to contest the election, it didn't have a hope. 172 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 3: Venezuela and Greece. 173 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: So these are the least the people who don't believe 174 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: that they live in democracies. 175 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 2: Anyway, speaking of oligarchy, Ryan, we have the story from 176 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 2: Open Ai to talk about and Scarlet Johansson, and you 177 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: did promise a story about Scarlet Johansson, so we'll put 178 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: a pin in that to do it, to keep people 179 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: watching because it's a good story. But Scarlet Johansson is 180 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 2: locked in a battle with sam Altman and open AI, 181 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 2: and actually I think locked in a noble battle with 182 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 2: sam Altman and basically one right open AI. Legally, it 183 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: looks like she's clearly has the law on her side, 184 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: which is interesting because there's going to be a lot 185 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: of novel legal battles and decisions coming out of the 186 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 2: AI space, and then. 187 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: Your term future, we're still intercepted suing them Open Ai. Oh, 188 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 1: that's really interesting, robbing content basically for the AI with 189 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: with a few other small news organizations. 190 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: Sarah Silverman, I think is doing something similar. Yeah, absolutely, 191 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 2: so let's put this tear sheet from NPR up on 192 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,319 Speaker 2: the screen. Scarlett johans And says she is quote shocked 193 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 2: and angered over the new chat GPT voice, as she 194 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 2: should be if you haven't heard the backstory here yet, 195 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: it's absolutely insane, Like the level of brazenness comes from 196 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 2: like only it could only come from Silicon Valley tech bros. 197 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: Just reading from the NPR piece here. Lawyers for Scarlett 198 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,200 Speaker 2: Johansson are demanding that open Ai just close how it 199 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 2: developed an AI personal assistant voice that the actress says 200 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: sounds uncannily similar to her own. Johanson's legal team has 201 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 2: sent open Ai two letters asking the company to detail 202 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 2: the process by which it developed a voice the tech 203 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: company dubbed Sky. Johansson's publicist told NPR in a revelation 204 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 2: that has not been previously reported. After open Ai had 205 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: held a live demonstration of the voice last week. Many 206 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 2: observers compared it to Johanson's voice in the twenty thirteen 207 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,840 Speaker 2: Spike Jones romantic sci fi film Her, which, as you 208 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 2: may remember, centers on a man who falls in love 209 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 2: with the female voice of his computer eye operating system. 210 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 2: And if we skip ahead in the elements here, I 211 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 2: just want to go ahead and put this next, not 212 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: the next one, but actually E three up on the 213 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 2: screen because it's relevant to what we just read from NPR. 214 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 2: Sam Altman on May thirteenth had just cryptically tweeted her 215 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 2: lowercase her, and then the voice comes out. It sounds 216 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 2: just like Scarlett Johansson. No, it's just like her in 217 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 2: the Spike Jones film Her. So to test this out 218 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: for yourselves, we're going to play a video that somebody 219 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:39,319 Speaker 2: else made comparing open Ai to actually Scarlett Johansson. It's 220 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 2: not from Scarlett Johansson, right, This isn't from Scarlett Johansson, 221 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: even though it's reading Scarlett Johansson's statement. She did not 222 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: put this out, her team did not put this out. 223 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: Someone else made it. But it's a very instructive mashup. 224 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: So take a listen here. 225 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 4: Last September, I received an offer from Sam Altman, who 226 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 4: wanted to hire me to voice the current Chat GPT 227 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 4: four point zero system. He told me that he felt 228 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 4: that by my voicing the system, I could bridge the 229 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 4: gap between tech companies and creatives and help consumers to 230 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 4: feel comfortable with the seismic shift concerning humans and AI. 231 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 4: He said he felt that my voice would be comforting 232 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 4: to people. After much consideration and for personal reasons, I 233 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 4: declined the offer. Nine months later, my friend's family in 234 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 4: the general public all noted how much the newest system, 235 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 4: named Sky sounded like me. When I heard the release demo, 236 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,480 Speaker 4: I was shocked, angered, and in disbelief that mister Altman 237 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 4: would pursue a voice that sounded so eerily similar to 238 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 4: mine that my closest friends and news outlets could not 239 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 4: tell the difference. Mister Altman even insinuated that the similarity 240 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 4: was intentional, tweeting a single word her a reference to 241 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 4: the film in which I voiced a chat system Samantha, 242 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 4: who forms an intimate relationship with a human. Two days 243 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 4: before the Chat GPT four point zero demo was released, 244 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 4: mister Altman contacted my agent, asking me to reconsider before 245 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 4: we could connect. The system was out there. 246 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 2: All right, So that was Scarlet Johansson. Not really, that 247 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: was the AI voice of Scarlett Johansson reading Scarlett Johansson's statement, Ryan, 248 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: what do you make of all this? 249 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: Has anybody ever been more busted than Sam Altman? No, 250 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: he busted himself, just completely busted. 251 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, he clearly. 252 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: But did he want to be busted? Is he intentionally 253 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: testing the limits of the law in this case because 254 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 2: you mentioned an intercept, I think Sarah Silverman has a 255 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: similar case to some of the media outlets that you 256 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 2: guys have joined up with to challenge legally scraping all 257 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: of your guys's work and doing machine learning based on it. 258 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: The fact that he tweeted her after knowing for sure 259 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 2: that Scarlett Johnson was going to publicly say this is 260 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 2: not consensual. I said no to this. You out used 261 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 2: my voice. It seems to me like he's intentionally testing 262 00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: the limits and is doing a wink in a nod 263 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: in a way that you used to see from Silicon 264 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 2: Valley back when they felt like they were on a 265 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 2: pirate ship in two thousand and six. 266 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: Yes, that is a very good analogy that this is 267 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: the old move fast and break things, which is I 268 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: think a Zuckerberg line, which meant, don't worry about the rules, 269 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: don't worry about the laws. We're just just go just 270 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: plow ahead. And what's meta concerning about this, No pun 271 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:24,880 Speaker 1: in Town was going. 272 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 2: To say is that, speaking of brazen. 273 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: Altman is the guy who we're supposed to rely on 274 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: as the ethical mind and the ethical soul behind AI, Like, 275 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: he's the one that's been promising us trust me. I 276 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: have the interests of humanity at stake here, you know, 277 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about the future in ways that the grubby 278 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: capitalists are not. 279 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 3: Never mind that he moved his thing from nonprofit to. 280 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 2: For profit and the regulators who just don't understand this. 281 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: Right, He's the one that we're going to just supposed 282 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: to trust with this, and now given a very basic 283 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: test of ethics, he just wildly failed. Like this, this 284 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: is a test that a third grader could pass. If 285 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: you ask somebody's permission for something and they tell you no, 286 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: are you supposed to do it? 287 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? 288 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: A third grade be like no, yeah, some third graders 289 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: will just plow ahead. 290 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 3: Anyway. 291 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: We don't want those third graders shaping the entire future 292 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: of humanity? 293 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 2: Do you currently have a third grader? 294 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 3: Second and fourth? 295 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 2: It just sounded so visperal for you. 296 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: So I'm leaving my kids out of this because they're 297 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: in different grades. Yes, yeah, they could run over and 298 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: absolutely would not run. 299 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 2: Not even in fourth grade. 300 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 3: No, okay. 301 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 2: But the reason I think this resonates with so many 302 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 2: people is because it's so brazen, but also because people 303 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 2: can connect the dots and see how this will be 304 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 2: used for them. They know that people because people have 305 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: been dealing, by the way, with like revenge porn on 306 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 2: individual community levels, not just celebrities. The celebrity cases are 307 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: the ones that get the most attention. But you can 308 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: see where this is going really quickly because people see 309 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 2: where some of this stuff has gone already very quickly. 310 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 2: People are dealing with this stuff in high schools. How 311 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: you can use AI right now to do horrible things 312 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 2: that are not consensual, especially young girls. But you can see, 313 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 2: you can connect the dots between what happened here to 314 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 2: Scarlett Johansson. It's just disgusting to treat this like and 315 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 2: I get this is not pornographic. This isn't you know, 316 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: it's it's not content that's humiliating or embarrassing in any ways. 317 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 2: It's just you know, reading as a voice that's reading. 318 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 2: But you can the possibilities with AR absolutely endless, and 319 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 2: the way that they can be used to target people 320 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 2: that don't have the resources of a celebrity to release 321 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 2: a lawyer cractice statement to NPR and have a full 322 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 2: media blitz defending yourself. That is not going to happen 323 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 2: to the kids who deal with this in Fort Wayne 324 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 2: and Dana at their high school. And for Sam Altman 325 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 2: to be so cavalier about it, it just speaks to 326 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 2: something that is so rightfully out of fashion for the 327 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: rest of the country now, which is this, although it's 328 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: becoming defensible again with the sort of e act accelerationism 329 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 2: crowd that is reacting to some excessive you know, zeal 330 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 2: among people who just want to control everything. I understand that, 331 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 2: but do you get why people maybe want to control 332 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 2: everything because you're doing this. You're doing this. 333 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: If a good thing that could come out of this, 334 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: well A, she should see them, but B there should 335 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: be a ban on producing AI products that allow you 336 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: to take somebody's voice and then recreate it, because, like 337 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: you said, you're gonna have middle schoolers who will take 338 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: voice memos yes from a friend or who they thought 339 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: was a friend, feed it into some program, and then 340 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: make new voice memos and pass them around as if 341 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: this is these are the real people. And Altman is 342 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: showing here that AI absolutely cannot be trusted on this question. 343 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And the legal point is really interesting. One 344 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 2: of the things that's been circulating since this happened is 345 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: going back to what happened with Bette Midler and Ford. 346 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 3: Do you remember this? 347 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 2: I think these the yuppie commercial campaign for Ford. Bette 348 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,040 Speaker 2: Midler said no to having her voice used, and then 349 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 2: they hired a Bette Midler impersonator, and Bette Midler won 350 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 2: that battle. Right, So this is a legal framework that 351 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 2: should give Scarlett Johansson actually a pretty good defense or 352 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,239 Speaker 2: a pretty good advantage in defending her rights against what 353 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 2: Sam Altman just did. Who knows if Sam Altman, with 354 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 2: all of the resources of Open AI, was even aware 355 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 2: of that, if any of his legal team actually was 356 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 2: aware of what happened with that case. My assumption is 357 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 2: that they were and that they are still But maybe 358 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 2: they weren't, and they're just they don't care. They're testing 359 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 2: the waters. They have all the money in the world 360 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 2: to do it, and you know they're ready to go 361 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 2: have fun, move fast and break things and you know, 362 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 2: do no evil. But their definition of evil is probably 363 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 2: different than a whole lot of other people's. Now, Ryan 364 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 2: the Crowd is in suspense. 365 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: The my Scarlett Johannes story actually does kind of flow 366 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: into the impersonation point. 367 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 3: Also it does so back in. 368 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: Back in the back in the Obama era, basically the 369 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: contest among media organizations was who could get the biggest celebrities. 370 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 2: It was pretty gross but to. 371 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: Come to the White House correspondent to dinner, but fun 372 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: for reporters. We were the huffing It Post. We were 373 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: the cool kids in town. We were run by Arianna Huffington, 374 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: who knew from La knew absolutely everybody in La. It 375 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: was so it was actually a contest of like who 376 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: could compete for second place. 377 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,239 Speaker 3: Of getting the best sotties, uh. 378 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: And it would usually be Bloomberg for just because they 379 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 1: had they had this huge party at the French Embassy 380 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: and so they would be able to get like the 381 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,200 Speaker 1: second best celebrities. We'd always get the top A list ones. 382 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: And so a couple of years we had Scarlett Johansson 383 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: at our at our table. I would not get invited 384 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: to these these French embassy parties. Even though I was 385 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 1: at the kids outlet, I was still doing reporting that 386 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: that made the cool kids very uncomfortable. Obama just constantly 387 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: was trashing us. Yeah, like he just he's like, why 388 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: won't the Huffing Post just get in line? 389 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 2: Didn't last up? But well not that we don't. 390 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 3: We don't know. 391 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, so we so Scarlete and hands and of 392 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: course did get invited to the French embassy party. 393 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 3: So uh she uh, he said. I think it was 394 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 3: her brother that she that she was with. 395 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 2: Uh. 396 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: And then a couple other Huffing Post reporters. My wife 397 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: and I like, go with her in this limo to 398 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: the French Embassy. We're not invited, but she's like, look, 399 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: I'm Scarlet, your hands and I can get you and 400 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: get you guys in. So we get to the gate 401 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: and she's like, these are my friends and they're like, 402 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: well they're not on the list that it can't come in. 403 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: And the look on her face, I've never seen anything 404 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 1: like it, Like it was like the first time she'd 405 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 1: been told no. 406 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 3: I think she was a child actress, right, I don't remember. 407 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 3: So she's just like stunned. 408 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 2: This is Brian Graham, more. 409 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: Like Scarlet Johansson. You're telling me, no, you're a security 410 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: guard here. And so she recovers and she's like, who 411 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: runs this? Who's your manager? 412 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 2: You speak to the ambassador, the ambassador. 413 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: Bigger people come over, and it took a while, like 414 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: it was not they did not just roll over. 415 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 3: But she fought it. 416 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,120 Speaker 1: But she was not. It became a matter of principle. 417 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: She was not fighting for my wife and I. She 418 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: was fighting for her, for the principle that if she 419 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: says that these people are cool and her friends, that 420 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: damn it, they're coming into this party. And so eventually 421 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: they're like, okay, fine, just how many of them? She's like, 422 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: she counts, all right, fine, come on, come on in. 423 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: And the thing was surreal. It's like Henry Kissinger over here. 424 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: It's like the really grossest place I've ever been. I 425 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: think I stayed for about fifteen minutes. I think this 426 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: is this is insane. But then so then later and 427 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: this is where the impersonation comes in. And I won't 428 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: say who we did this to, but we did in 429 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: April fool's prank where we made a fake like New 430 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: York phone number and texted one of our reporters saying 431 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: it great, great hang out with you. 432 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 3: It's Scarlet, I've. 433 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: Got a I've got a cousin who wants an internship 434 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: with the Huffing New Post and he and started a text. 435 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 2: You pulled an Altman, You fully pulled an Alton. 436 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 3: And started a text conversation. 437 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: Had the person convinced that this and he never told 438 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: anybody that he was texting with Scarlett Johansson. Eventually good 439 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: for him. Well, eventually we called it off or like 440 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: this could end badly? Yes, yes, I told him so. Anyway, 441 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: she should sue us too, but we didn't do it publicly. 442 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 2: Same moment. If you're watching, it takes a certain dose 443 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 2: of wisdom to pull your chips and just go home take. 444 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 3: The l exactly. 445 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: But this is the kind of thing that people will do, 446 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: these kinds of pranks, and they're not This was funny, 447 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: I was going to say, but it almost could. 448 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 3: You know it could end badly, It could. 449 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 2: End very bad, but good for scholar giants and fighting 450 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: for the free press through rebevels with Henry Kissinger coming 451 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 2: to the Henry Kissinger part to toe Champagne with Henry 452 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: Kissinger and get you know, more scoops about how great 453 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 2: China is. I'm sure that's what he was dishing out 454 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 2: at the time. 455 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 3: I wonder. I was like, oh my god, that is it's. 456 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 2: Hard to say. It's hard to say. But all right, 457 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 2: well that was a hell of a story. 458 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 3: There you go. I don't know, storytime. 459 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was good. It was good. All right, let's 460 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: move on to the next block. We have a great interview. 461 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 2: Super excited to have Gabriel Shipton, brother of Juliana Schlange, 462 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 2: in the studio with us. 463 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: This week, Juliana Sane noted a rare win in his 464 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: legal battle against the United States, with a high court 465 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: in the UK ruling that he was is able to 466 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: appeal the US extradition and also dealing a blow to 467 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: some of the US efforts to make assurances about. 468 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 3: The conditions that he would be. 469 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: Kept in if he were to be brought back to 470 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: the United States. To talk more about this, were joined 471 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: by Julian Sanger's brother, filmmaker Gabriel Shipton. 472 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 3: Gabe, thank you so much for joining us. Yeah. Thanks 473 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 3: for having me guys, So tell us, So. 474 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 1: You were out there hearing on Monday, what were your 475 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 1: expectations going into it, and you know, what was the 476 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: what was the tone of it, what was the how'd 477 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: you feel about the result? 478 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 5: Well for us, you know, as Julian's family going into 479 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 5: this hearing where they could have turned around and ordered 480 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 5: his extradition, there were some people saying they were from 481 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 5: there basically yes, yeah, there were some people saying there 482 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,160 Speaker 5: are US marshals in the court even ready to pounce. 483 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 5: So going in there, there's a lot of it's very tense, too, 484 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 5: very tense for us, and this decision obviously was a 485 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 5: huge relief. You know that Julian liftsified another day in 486 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 5: this ongoing extradition proceeding, the mood in the court I 487 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 5: think was. 488 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 3: A bit different. 489 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 5: The judges are sort of taking on the gravity of 490 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 5: what this means, not just for Julian, but what it 491 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 5: means for freedom of expression in the United Kingdom, and 492 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 5: they spoke to that when they rejected this US US 493 00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 5: assurance from the DOJ from the State Department that said 494 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,880 Speaker 5: that Julian could seek to rely on the First Amendment, 495 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 5: but they wouldn't guarantee a First Amendment that would apply 496 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 5: to Julian. And so the UK courts actually rejected that 497 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 5: assurance and said that's not good enough because what that 498 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 5: would mean for citizens in the United Kingdom is that 499 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 5: these secrecy laws, these espionage laws, could be used potentially 500 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 5: to suppress the freedom of expression of people in the 501 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 5: United Kingdom. So that's a huge rebuke to the DOJ, 502 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 5: to the State Department, I think quite embarrassing as well 503 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 5: on the world stage, having a diplomatic note rejected in 504 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 5: that fashion. They could seek he could say it again, 505 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 5: he could seek to rely on the First Amendment defense. 506 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: You can seek to rely on the First Amendment. Yeah, 507 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: but you can't have actual First Amendment protections. Yes, you 508 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 1: seek to you can try, yeah, yeah, well you can 509 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: give it a go. Well, anybody's allowed to try exactly Well. 510 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 2: And Gab I was going to say, if we keep 511 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: pulling at that thread from the position of the UK, 512 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,119 Speaker 2: there's a serious question about free expression in journalism, and 513 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 2: I wanted to see if you could explain just a 514 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 2: little bit more what Ryan was just saying. You can 515 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 2: seek the protections of the First Amendment sort of hypothetically, 516 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 2: but what does that what are they talking about. Practically, 517 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 2: that would mean if you're in the UK reporting on 518 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: things that the United States Security Apparatus is unhappy with, 519 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 2: they can you know, do what they will if they 520 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,120 Speaker 2: become unhappy with it. Is that kind of what's going. 521 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 5: On here, that's right, And if these judges had accepted 522 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 5: that assurance that that's exactly what it would mean for 523 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 5: all journalists in the United Kingdom that they wouldn't actually 524 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 5: have free expression rights in their home country because the 525 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 5: US could use the USDJ could use its espionagic laws 526 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,560 Speaker 5: to reach into the United Kingdom and go after any journalists. 527 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 5: And the judges actually acknowledge the gravity in court they said, 528 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 5: you know, this has a massive meaning, not just for 529 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 5: Julian but for all the people in the United Kingdom. 530 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 5: So I think it really frames now the next appeal 531 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 5: as a freedom of expression case which hasn't been which 532 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 5: haven't been really been done in Julian's case for a 533 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 5: long time. And I think that's going to have repercussions 534 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,120 Speaker 5: back here in Washington, because I don't think the DOJ 535 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 5: ever really wanted to have a freedom of an expression 536 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 5: case going on. 537 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 2: This. 538 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: I think that's a really important point, the DOJ wanted 539 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: to prosecute one of the most important publishers and journalists 540 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: of the last fifteen years. But they somehow thought that 541 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: they could do that without getting into a debate over 542 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 1: freedom of expression and the free press, that they could 543 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: just talk about hacking and cyber this and cyber terrorism 544 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: like Mittri McConnell and Joe Biden have referred to them. 545 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: But yeah, that was always that was always ridiculous because 546 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 1: that's that's not what it's that's not what it's about. 547 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: And so, how has the public and when I mean public, 548 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: I mean public, I mean public officials that you're meeting 549 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: with on a regular basis, How has their reception of 550 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: the case evolved over the last year or so. 551 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 5: Well, there's a lot more room now to hear Julian's 552 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 5: perspective on this case. You know, the perspective that we bring. 553 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,960 Speaker 5: That I bring is Julian's brother to Washington, and I 554 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 5: think I've been here every month for the last three months, 555 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 5: for a week, you know, working away in Congress, and 556 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 5: the amount of attention that we get, the amount of 557 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 5: meetings we get just increasing exponentially, People very high up, 558 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,239 Speaker 5: you know, in the in the Congress who hold these 559 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 5: high positions are willing to hear a different perspective now, 560 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 5: which would never have been possible. And just last month 561 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 5: you had President Biden. He was asked is he considering 562 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 5: the Australian request to drop the charges, and he said, yes, 563 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 5: we're considering it. And so even at the highest levels, 564 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,479 Speaker 5: you've got the Biden administration saying we're considering dropping this, 565 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 5: but the DOJ is pushing forward. So there's this sort 566 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 5: of a little bit of a divide between the institutions 567 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 5: here that I think shows some movement in the case, 568 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 5: and we're here to make sure that Julian's perspective is 569 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 5: carried through into the Congress. 570 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 2: Well, on that point about Biden saying yes, I'm making 571 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 2: this consideration, I'm also curious, GiB about how geopolitical negotiations 572 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,200 Speaker 2: might be changing the way some people are thinking about this, 573 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 2: ally in Australia, obviously in an ally as China, hawks 574 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 2: are increasingly concerned about Taiwan, increasingly concerned about that whole 575 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 2: area of the world. Is there any sense that you 576 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: get as you're talking to members that they see Julian 577 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 2: as a kind of in the way that they're looking 578 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 2: at negotiations with this hugely powerful ally that they're concerned 579 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 2: or that they want to be sort of a hedge 580 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 2: in a potential conflict with China. Just trying to think 581 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 2: of why over the course of the last year people 582 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 2: might be more interested in having that conversation. 583 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly. 584 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 5: And I think if you look back into the reporting 585 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 5: that's going on around the Alliance in Australia, Julian's always 586 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 5: mentioned whenever there's an Alliance discussion and how that is 587 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 5: a reflection of Australia's true position in the Alliance that 588 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 5: the human rights of Australians don't actually matter within this 589 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,600 Speaker 5: sort of alliance structure, and carrying that through into the 590 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 5: meetings on the Hill. Obviously members who are more concerned 591 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 5: about foreign relations it really carries with them. 592 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 3: It does. 593 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 5: And we had a group of politicians here from Australia 594 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 5: Bipartisan Group last year and they were they made an 595 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 5: incredible impact in terms of explaining to them, explaining to 596 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 5: Congress people what's actually happening back in Australia and the 597 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 5: sentiment among the Australian public, because ninety percent of the 598 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 5: Australian public wants Julian brought back, and it's having a 599 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 5: detrimental effect on the alliance because it's like one point 600 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 5: of contention really in the in the alliance between the 601 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 5: US and Australia. 602 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: It's a really incredible statement about how desperately the US 603 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: wants Julian Assange behind bars here in the United States, 604 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 1: that they are willing to upend their relationship with Australia 605 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: when they're they keep blaming they're doing this pivot to 606 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: Asia and the Pacific and willing to upend their relationship 607 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: with the UK and double down on a trump Ara 608 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: prosecution and double down on a trump A prosecution. Do 609 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 1: you have a sen and you have the President himself saying, 610 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: you know what, actually, we're open to dropping this in 611 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: our talks with Australia, which takes it out of the 612 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: dog like. It was an unusual thing for him to say, 613 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: because typically a democratic president will say, Ah, we don't 614 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: get involved in expect department matters. 615 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 3: Actually that day I asked you, and I I asked 616 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 3: the State Department. 617 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: I was that you always refer questions to the Department 618 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: of Justice on Juliana Sange. But today the President said 619 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,240 Speaker 1: he was talking to Australia about it. You can't, so 620 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: it's now diplomatic, it's now in your domain. 621 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 3: And they did. Then they finally commented. 622 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: On it and had a back and forth claimed why 623 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 1: it was a legit prosecution because it brings it out 624 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: of that realm of oh, this is just prosecutors kind 625 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: of doing their work. But what is your sense of 626 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: what is what is the impulse here? Like, why is 627 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 1: it so fanatically necessary for them to pursue this in 628 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: the face of all of the kind of political obstacles 629 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: and problems that it's causing for them around the world. 630 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I think there is. You know, there is 631 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 5: a division. And so you've seen Bud and saying making 632 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 5: these comments, as well as all the pros freedom organizations 633 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 5: ruting to the president as well in the New York 634 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 5: Times calling on the President to drop it. So I 635 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 5: think there is a division between those who want to 636 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 5: pursue this prosecution, the sort of Mic Pompeos of the world, 637 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 5: the sort of hubris from these sorts of characters within 638 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 5: the intelligence community, and those people who see it as 639 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 5: a sort of albatross, political albatross around their next So 640 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 5: I think there is a division forming and I think 641 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 5: the political cost. Now we're reaching a point where the 642 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 5: political cost of pursuing this actually outweighs the benefit of 643 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 5: dropping it, particularly after this decision in the UK courts 644 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,200 Speaker 5: where the UK has actually said we're not going to 645 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 5: accept your assurances. This is going to affect the freedom 646 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 5: of expression of all people in the UK. I think 647 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 5: that is a really strong rebuke and that will feed 648 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 5: into the cost of pursuing this and hopefully shift the 649 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 5: balance so that the DOJ can now can take another 650 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 5: look at it and say, well, actually, you know, maybe 651 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 5: it's not worth us pursuing this. It's incredibly embarrassing, it's 652 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 5: affecting our relationships. Might be time to bring it. 653 00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: The next step is that he will fail and appeal, 654 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,879 Speaker 1: and then the question will be does the Department Justice 655 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 1: respond to the appeal or what yeah were? 656 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 5: So they'll set an appeal date now, and that appeal 657 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 5: will be based on these freedom of expression questions. So 658 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 5: the appeal will be I think that it's going to 659 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,239 Speaker 5: move quite quickly. They've got four days to submit schedules 660 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,399 Speaker 5: and things like that, and then the court will set 661 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 5: an appeal date. So the lawyers, Jillian's lawyers are expecting 662 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,919 Speaker 5: an appeal date even before the summer, so there could 663 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 5: be another hearing before the summer break in August. But 664 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 5: then whether that result comes back before November, I'm not sure. 665 00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 5: And could that appeal result in his release potentially if 666 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 5: the appeal, if it goes Julian's way and they it 667 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 5: would block the extradition and then it would be up 668 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 5: to the DOJ again to say, Okay, we're going to 669 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 5: take this to the Supreme Court of the UK. So 670 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 5: that could be a perfect neat endpoint for the DOJ 671 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 5: just to say, oh, yeah, this is this has gone 672 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 5: on too long, this is too hard. 673 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:05,359 Speaker 3: We lost, let's move on. 674 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's the UK's fault. 675 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 3: We can blame the UK. 676 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 5: We you know, we still pursued it as much as 677 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 5: we could, but the UK courts blocked us. 678 00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: And you mentioned November. Do you feel like there's a 679 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: race against the clerk? Are you worried that Pompeo, the 680 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: Pompeos of the world are coming back to power. It's 681 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: it's hard to like imagine a worst situation than the 682 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,919 Speaker 1: current administration, which is has been prosecuting him these years. 683 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 3: Yes, that's what Maybe there is a worse situation. I 684 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 3: don't know where do you come down on that. 685 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,319 Speaker 5: Well, so I think what's happened with you know, the 686 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 5: Australian advocacy which has been very very important in this case, 687 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 5: and Biden saying the Presidents saying that he's considering dropping it, 688 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 5: I think now is the time to really move and 689 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 5: to end this right now. We don't know what's going 690 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 5: to happen after November. You know what administration you know 691 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 5: will be will be sworn in in January. So I 692 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,720 Speaker 5: think now is the time to really make the best 693 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 5: move to end this based on President's comments, the support 694 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 5: from Australia and the UK court decision does. 695 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:06,360 Speaker 2: Like a dive with a bone. 696 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 3: Now, last question, how is he doing? Mental health wise? 697 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,360 Speaker 1: I know it's just absolute torture to be in the 698 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: conditions that he's in, Like, how is he faring? 699 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, he's holding up. You know, there's obviously it's a 700 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 5: lot of relief now that he's got a sort of path, Yeah, 701 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 5: a little bit of a glimmer of hope and a 702 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 5: path to keep fighting, because that's what it is. 703 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 3: He's not been extra dieded. 704 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 5: We can keep fighting, we can keep mounting his political pressure. 705 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,760 Speaker 5: But you know, he's hanging in there. His health is deteriorating. 706 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 5: You know, I'll go and see him next week after 707 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 5: I leave here. So, yeah, he's hanging in there. And 708 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,240 Speaker 5: he was telling me the other day he's in prison 709 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 5: with there's an actual cannibal who's been put into the 710 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 5: prison with him. So these are the sorts of people 711 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 5: that he has to deal with on a day to 712 00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:02,280 Speaker 5: day basis, These extreme crimminals, the most violent criminals, predatory 713 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 5: criminals in the United Kingdom who he's sharing a jail with. 714 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 1: Well, thanks as always for joining us in good luck 715 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: on Capitol Hill today. 716 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks for having me. 717 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,959 Speaker 2: All Right, Well that does it today on this edition 718 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 2: of Counterpoints. We will be back, of course on Friday 719 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 2: with a great debate on weed that Ryan set up. 720 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 2: This is Ryan's pet issue. In fact, you can see 721 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 2: his book This is a Country on Drugs right behind us. 722 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 2: That's a great book. Is that your best selling book? 723 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: Buy Them Both? We've Got People was my best selling book? 724 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 2: Okay, but that one. 725 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 3: The problem the problem with. 726 00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:37,960 Speaker 1: That one for sales is that it really appealed to 727 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: like twenty two year old men and. 728 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:41,760 Speaker 2: Not allowed to dispose bal income. 729 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, those men don't buy books by weed. They will 730 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: steal it from the library, or if any of their 731 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,360 Speaker 1: friends do buy it, then they'll just they'll pass. Thirty 732 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,439 Speaker 1: people will read one copy, which is great, that's fine. 733 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, happy, happy with that. 734 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,200 Speaker 1: But yes, the published industry will tell you that like 735 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: something like ninety percent of books are bought between bought 736 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,359 Speaker 1: by women who are like thirty and up. And even 737 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 1: if even if the books are read by men, it's 738 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: the woman in their life that buys it for them 739 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: and gives it to them. 740 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 2: That's good. 741 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: So if you ever are wondering, like how do publishing 742 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 1: houses make decisions, they make decisions thinking, you know, what 743 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,640 Speaker 1: will forty five year old woman want to read and buy? 744 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 2: Makes sense? 745 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 3: Actually buy. They don't care if you read it. 746 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 2: Well, I hope they buy Counterpoints or Breaking Points premium 747 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 2: subscriptions so they can get all of Counterpoints Friday early 748 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 2: to their inbox. You go, because they want, you know, 749 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 2: their husbands to watch this great wead debate that we 750 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 2: have coming up, and you actually, with the move of 751 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 2: the Biden administration that we talked about last week, we're 752 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:47,399 Speaker 2: going to get into that. I think we'll actually start 753 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 2: with it. But this is really important to a lot 754 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,120 Speaker 2: of families. There are, you know, scientific questions that are 755 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 2: increasingly very important to a lot of families, and I'm 756 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 2: excited to sort of dive into the policies. Not my 757 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,279 Speaker 2: area of expertise, but you know, the people, you know 758 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 2: the issue. So I'm really really excited for this one. 759 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll have John lou Becky, who you guys may 760 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 1: remember we've interviewed him before. He's a veteran who advocates 761 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 1: for the use of kind of psychedelics and MDMA for 762 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: post traumatic stress disorder. He talks about his own experience 763 00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:24,520 Speaker 1: overcoming PTSD, you know, through the use of MDMA therapy, 764 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,240 Speaker 1: MDMA assisted therapy. And then we're gonna have Kevin Sabott, 765 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 1: who is basically the kind of leading anti pot voice 766 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: in the country. I've known him since he was an 767 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: official in the Obama administration, but he he is the 768 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:41,440 Speaker 1: He is basically the man when it comes to. 769 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 3: Like beating up on the pot crowd. 770 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: Buddy of Staggers, I believe Sager like looks up to 771 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: him when it comes to forming his own kind of 772 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 1: intellectual edifice around his like anti pot thinking. 773 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, Soccer is popping his popcorn right now. He's ready 774 00:40:59,000 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 2: to rumble. 775 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 3: And we actually invited Saga. 776 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 2: It's too humble. 777 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: I think he had he had something else going on, 778 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: but we do. We do want him, maybe him and 779 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,760 Speaker 1: lou Becky like, at some point in the future, it'll 780 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,439 Speaker 1: be fun to have Sager as the kind of guest 781 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 1: on one of these debates. 782 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 2: Buy Sager a bunch of caffeine, lock him in a 783 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 2: room for an hour before the debate, and let him 784 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 2: loose red bulls something. Yeah. Uh, he's just so similar 785 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 2: to his numbsis destiny? There you go, just bounding the caffine. 786 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 2: All right, Well, thanks everyone for tuning in. We will 787 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,760 Speaker 2: be back here on Friday. Make sure to stay tuned 788 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 2: for that, and then we'll be back here next Wednesday. 789 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:37,839 Speaker 3: See you later then,