WEBVTT - Civic Cipher 010221 ft. Ramses Ja and Gonzo 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.720 Yeah, that's right, y'all. Welcome to another episode of Civic 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.880 cipher I'm your host, Ramsy's Jah and a big shout 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.040 out to q Ward, who is still dealing with the 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.600 real but you know, true to form, we are still 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:22.440 bringing you everything that is newsworthy and noteworthy in the 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:26.960 world of black and brown folks. And this show has 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:29.280 been a long time coming. You and I talked about 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:33.479 this issue once or twice on the show so far, 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:38.360 but plenty of times behind the scenes. And you know, 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:42.199 I really didn't know how to script the show like 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:44.000 the one that I want to do today, And it 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:48.720 wasn't until I sat down with a friend of mine 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.720 recently over the holidays and we got to talking about 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:56.800 some things that took place in the past but led 0:00:56.840 --> 0:01:01.920 to some incarceration. And you know, on the show here 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:08.840 we've discussed, you know, prison reform, we've discussed things like 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.440 do prisons work, but you know, we haven't really gone 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:16.000 into detail about that. And as it turns out, you know, 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.600 you know a lot of my friends are brilliant people, 0:01:19.840 --> 0:01:24.200 but none quite as brilliant as my friend Gonzo, who 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:26.720 has decided to join me today on Civic Ciphers. So 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:28.000 thank you for joining us. 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.240 For having me us. Yeah. Yeah, so appreciate the little 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:33.120 confidence there, absolutely absolutely. 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:38.000 So you know, let's uh, you know, I I know 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:39.160 that you are not. 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:40.200 Just this thing. 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.320 You know, we we've known each other since we were children. 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:48.720 But for today's purposes, we're going to talk about one 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:50.720 facet of what I believe to be a very rich 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:54.800 life that you live. And so I certainly don't want 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:58.160 to reduce you to just an inmate, but I do 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:02.080 want you to discuss your time as an inmate and 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:06.400 your relationship with the prison system, so that we can 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:10.280 bring our listeners up to speed and they'll know who 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:10.920 they're talking to. 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.400 Well, definitely, you know, as you said, I've lived, I 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.840 try to live a full life. I'm just not you know, 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.520 the incarcerated number that they decide to give you. It 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.400 does actually play though a large part in the overall 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:27.320 development of my life. Sure, so you know to speak 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.280 to that, you know I've done you know, I went 0:02:30.320 --> 0:02:34.000 through a period in my life where I felt like 0:02:34.280 --> 0:02:36.600 I had to do crime because I had been convicted 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:40.080 of a crime. And so upon getting out of you know, prison, 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.960 you know your options are limited. Sure, I mean, so 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:45.040 the mindset of a young man at that time, so 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:47.320 I figured, well, I may as well commit more crime. 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.799 You know, got into a lot of fraud I ended 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:54.600 up doing you know, long extent extent of I did 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.040 about a four year stretch. So within that time, you know, 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.040 I've seen a lot of different things. I've seen a 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.440 lot of policy that has affected other people that I 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:06.800 care about, not only myself, and how laws are changed 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:12.120 and how they're kind of skew to actually target our community. So, 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:15.200 you know, as far as that, I try to live 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:16.760 my life as best I can of put the past 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.600 behind me. But you know, when I see programs like 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:23.040 yourself and gentlemen out there trying to make a difference 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.400 in our community, it's just something that needs to be 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:29.360 addressed because I don't think the public truly understands, you know, 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:34.440 to debauchery that goes on behind the scene, and how 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.040 the system is almost skewed the way to kind of 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:38.920 keep people incarcerated. 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:47.320 Absolutely. Now you've you've been in and out a handful 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:52.200 of times. Can you describe the different places that you've been. 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.120 I know you went to a jail one time and 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:55.480 then a prison a different time. 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:58.880 Yeah, definitely, there's well, the difference between jail and prison. 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.480 So jail is where you will wait to basically you're 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:07.040 your charge, you're arrested, and if you can't make bail 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.040 or you're not, they call it where if you're o ard, 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.960 sometimes you release on your own recognizance. If you can't 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.839 make that, you have to in turn put up a bail, 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:23.359 which is this whole other system of a funny exciting 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:25.800 ways to go. But for there, then you sit in 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:29.120 the county. So at one point I know a lot 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.960 of Arizonians if they're familiar with it, was Sheriff Joe So. 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.080 And then there's various jails that I've been to. I've 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:39.800 done my tour of a lot of them, you know. 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:43.240 So there's there's Lower Buckeye Jail, there's Downtown, there's Madison, 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:45.680 and then these are where you will wait to where 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:49.039 you ultimately go to trial or where most people sign 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.120 a pola parking deal or you know, if you're found 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:54.719 innocent or sometimes you usually reduce I think they have 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.000 a ninety five percent conviction, right wow, So yeah. 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:01.600 You know, I I read something about that not too 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:05.039 long ago, and that's kind of a phenomenon. It's just 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:09.760 a weird little quirk of the the criminal justice system 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:13.680 in this country at least, where a lot of cases 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:19.800 never go to trial because you know, folks will try 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.920 to they'll take a plea deal and admit that they 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.440 did something sometimes that they didn't even do to avoid 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:30.720 going to trial. So there's this idea, and we saw 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:36.640 that with the the They now call them the Exonerated Five, 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.280 but it's the Central Park Five that they may be 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:41.839 more commonly known as. And they did a movie on 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.640 Netflix when they see Us, But you saw these people 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.800 admitting to crimes that they didn't commit because of police coercion, 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:53.640 et cetera, and ending up during prison sentences accepting plea 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.520 deals that they shouldn't have taken anyway. And this is 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:59.880 something that actually has happened to one of my older brothers. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:04.280 He actually went to prison for twelve years for he 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:08.599 was there was some issue of confrontation in a parking lot. 0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:11.279 This was back when the new Escalade came out, and 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:14.360 he had a gun on him. You know, California, there 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:17.560 was a lot of carjackings, so he had a gun 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:19.520 in the car. He pulled the gun out and shot 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:21.240 the gun in the air to scare the guys. Off 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:26.240 from you know, messing with his now his wife, and 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:29.000 it was on video, but they for some reason it 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:31.480 couldn't submit the video in court like they. 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.400 Sometimes there's lawyer posturing sometimes to get you know, certain evidence. 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:38.200 Sure, and so they couldn't submit the video of him 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:40.160 shooting the gun in the air. And so what it was. 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:42.359 It ended up being an attempted murder case that he 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:45.839 had to fight as opposed to you know, just discharging 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.600 a weapon to scare these guys off. And so he 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.640 was looking at eighteen years, but he could plead a 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:55.400 twelve year deal, and he accepted the plea and fortunately 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.040 he just got out after twelve years. But that's twelve 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:00.560 years I missed with my big brother. So I'm familiar 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:01.240 with that part of it. 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.760 And that's a scary thing too, because it's when you 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.039 do enter a plea bargain. It's funny to judge, ask 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.600 you have you been have you ever been coursed or 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.680 intimidated to take this deal? Yeah, well you're like I've 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:14.520 been sitting in this jail. 0:07:14.640 --> 0:07:17.400 You're you're coursing me right now. I'm not my friend, 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:20.880 you know, this is a scary environment, et cetera. But yeah, well, 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.520 that's part of uh, I think what we'll get into today, 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:28.480 because the very nature of the criminal justice system, it's 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:31.000 it's sort of like a snake that's eating its own tail. 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:35.080 It's a it's a it's a very weird, unusual thing. 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.000 You would think that, like most places in the world, 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:43.560 the criminal justice system is supposed to, you know, restore 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:47.320 justice to society or harmed individuals and rehabilitate the criminals. 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.040 And neither of those two things are true, and very 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:56.720 little of justice, almost none, and then everybody is just 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:59.560 okay with that. And so recently, obviously, there's been this 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:02.480 push to rethink what does it mean because if you're 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:04.040 just used to it, if you're born into a world 0:08:04.080 --> 0:08:06.720 where bad people go to jail and then they go 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:08.520 back to jail, and they go back to jail, you know, 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.040 that's just kind of the norm. And that's something we'll 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.400 get into today. But a lot of folks recently have 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:20.680 been thinking rethinking what it means to actually lower crime. 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:23.280 You know, obviously we talk about this a lot on 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.600 the show, but the idea of defunding the police means 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.320 reallocating police resources into community programs that prevent crime from 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:31.520 happening in the first place, and believe it or not, 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:33.880 there's a lot of people that don't want that to happen, 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.920 not just police, but like people that you know are 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:42.240 in this in the prison business, you know, exactly. So 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.679 the nature of criminal justice is very different. It's not 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:48.160 it's not meant they don't want to rehabilitate it, and 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:51.840 they lobby and they get politicians on their side, et cetera. 0:08:52.280 --> 0:08:54.400 And the ready assumption, and again we'll get into this 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.240 little later, but the ready assumption is that there needs 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:01.720 to be a certain amount of criminals as opposed to 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:06.200 there will always be a some number of criminals, you know. 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:09.720 And those are two different approaches to criminal justice. One 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:11.559 is like, we need it to be at least here. 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:13.960 One of them is that, well, we're always going to 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.480 have some so we need some institutions. But you know, 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:19.160 it's not in us versus them sort of situation. And 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.720 so we'll get into that. One of the things that 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:23.760 I do want to start the show off with is 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:27.439 a fact, you know, and for those that don't know, 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:34.760 African Americans are imprisoned incarcerated at a rate five times 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:40.679 as much as whites. And then for Latinos, it's almost 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:44.640 one and a half times as whites. And so you 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:50.320 know that the three of our groups make up a 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.920 good amount of folks in this country. I'd say somewhere 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:57.480 in the neighborhood of eighty five percent ish maybe more 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:03.840 with those three groups. And you know, you, being someone 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.880 who can identify with being black and then obviously can 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:12.760 identify with being a Latino man as well, have been 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:16.560 able to see what that looks like, you know, along 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:21.760 those color lines as well. And so I want to 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.160 I wanna what I want to get into first is 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:29.960 do prisons work. I think I know the answer, but 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:38.720 let me qualify the question. So one thing that I 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.679 want you to talk about is I came across this. 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:47.360 It's that the idea that low risk offenders people who 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:52.080 might do things like you know, maybe they do a 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:54.320 fraud thing, you know, maybe they just they see an 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:56.840 opportunity to get ahead. Whatever their story is, I don't know, 0:10:56.920 --> 0:11:01.040 and not trying to justify anything, but they do something 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:07.599 and they're a low risk offender, they are also exposed 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:12.079 to high risk offenders or they kind of get introduced 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:16.080 into this kind of school of crime. Have you seen 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.920 anything like that definitely, definitely. 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.280 So what we can agree on that, we'll just stay 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:26.280 you know, some basic facts. So poverty, but you gots crime. 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.040 It's not like, oh, this certain demographic is you know 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:33.520 a little bit more has propensity to do crime. It's 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.959 not that it's it's it's poverty. So a large part 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:40.160 of what I'm seeing here lately is you know, the 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:44.760 opioid crisis. So we'll take for example, so right now 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:48.160 there are people who you know, for whatever reason, because 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.280 doctors were prescribing oxycoton like it was skittles back in 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.480 the day. Now that there's a crackdown, a lot of 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.000 these people are resorting to other drugs like fentanyl. So 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:00.000 now to buy the illegal drugs look expensive, so there's 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.360 there's no way you can work a regular job and 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:06.000 in turn, you know, support your habit. So a lot 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.640 of these people will resort to crime. So I'll use 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:14.000 you know, just because it kind of feeds into you know, 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:18.400 other aspects. We'll use Walmart for example. So Walmart at 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.000 one point was part of a law being group called 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:22.960 ALEC and you know, that can be looked up and 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.760 we can talk about that later. So what they did 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.120 is Walmart was getting hit over the head with these 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.880 people going into their store and stealing. So let's say you, 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.280 you know, you stole something over a certain dollar amount, 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:36.720 it could be deemed felony, but usually it got pleated 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.160 out to where it was a simple shoplifting. Well, now, 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:44.040 because they were taking such losses, they then in turn 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:48.560 had the law changed to where now if you steal 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:50.720 something and you have intent, they can prove you had 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:54.800 intent to steal. It's called an organized retail theft. So 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.920 with an organized retail theft, that's a class four felony. 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:01.320 So usually on your frat first time, if you get caught, 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.600 you can get some type of probation or some type 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:07.600 of like deferment program. But let's say you know it's 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:10.439 your second time or whatever, and you decide, they decide 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:12.360 to go ahead and push prison time to you're looking 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.880 at two and a half now with a prior years 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:18.680 two and a half years now, right, But with the privor. 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:20.280 The thing is is when you get arrested, though they 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.160 charge you throw everything against you. So throw everything against 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.640 the wall, see it sticks, to see if it sticks. 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.000 And then what happens is you have a historical prior. 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.000 So with a prior that same f four now turns 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:34.800 into four point five years. So that's four and a 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.600 half years. If you think of it's almost half a decade. 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.760 You're being locked up four And I'm not saying stealings, right, 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.640 but I think that's a little extreme that someone goes 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:47.640 in and you know, steal some items or and you know, 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:50.040 and and the way the laws are written, those laws 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.040 are still being changed now. I mean there are people 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:54.360 who go in and try to return things with like 0:13:54.679 --> 0:13:56.400 a new guy he tried to return an item with 0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:01.040 his brother's ID. Walmart will give you or credit for it. 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:05.200 Sometimes what they'll do is you know, but that's that's 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:07.640 changed now. Now the game is if they catch you, 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:09.440 that's an identity theft charge. 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:10.160 You know. 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:13.280 Yeah, so they're trying to do that and sometimes I 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.719 even heard depending on what you steal, they'll hit you 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.160 with a burglary charge. You know, the days when people 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.280 would go in and do a beer run and do 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:24.560 things like, they're considering some of this burglary. So these 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.840 corporations now, because they have the ear of certain politicians 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:32.000 and they're in league with them, it would it behooves 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.560 them to push harsher sentences because then what happens is 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.560 now these harsher sentences are are giving out. That's longer 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:43.320 prison time. Longer prison time means more bodies to be 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.240 put in these cages or to be warehoused. And with 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:48.440 private prisons here running rampant, I don't know if you've 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:51.560 ever heard of CCA. Yeah, they're a private prison here. 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.120 So if they benefit immensely off of that because they 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:56.720 need bodies, Like you said, we need that certain degree 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:00.160 of something that maybe you know, five ten years ago, oh, 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.440 wasn't such a large crime. Now in turn, I can 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.960 give you real prison time for it. And it's the 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.200 rates are alarming because they target our communities. Of course, 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.040 we're borck and brown or poor people, black and brown people, 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.400 and surprising, I've seen a lot of women who are 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:21.360 being getting incarcerated. Before it was you know, the joke was, okay, 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:26.000 well they're nicer on ladies, but they're not stopping, and 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.000 it's it's lack of it's a it's a big money grab. 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:29.400 Yeah. 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:33.200 Yeah, So when you get into okay, well are we 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:37.160 incarcerating people so that we can in turn rehabilitate them, 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:40.920 which it's all a joke. There's no rehabilitation or are 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:43.880 we just you know, warehousing bodies so that then we 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.920 can go ahead and you know, build the taxpayers for 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.280 so much because a private prison gets typically about thirty 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:54.680 two thousand dollars for readmade. So as a private prison, 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.280 I want to stack as many bodies, as many healthy 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.960 bodies as I can because you know that thirty two 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.160 two thousand pays pays for my guards, pays for my food, 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:06.920 and they try to run it at you know, the 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:11.360 lowest possible costs to where I mean the food rations 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:16.720 you get are they're they barely hit the caloric requirements 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:17.280 that you need. 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:19.600 You're saying it's not a lot of food or it's not. 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:20.760 Not a lot of food at all, and a lot 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:22.960 of it is high carbs, you know, something cheap like 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:24.880 so you'll eat a lot of pasta's something that's cheap 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.320 to feed a large population. Because they're trying to run 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:32.040 a profit. So with that thirty two thousand per inmate, 0:16:32.360 --> 0:16:34.600 they have to clear after they pay all expenses, like 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:40.080 I said, guards, you know, you know, food, clothing, I 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:42.960 mean there's now they're charging inmates. They'll give them maybe 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.720 an issue two or three outfits and then they'll charge 0:16:45.760 --> 0:16:49.240 them to buy other outfits. So now you're you have 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.760 to pay you know, after you get a job on 0:16:51.800 --> 0:16:55.320 the yard, and typically, you know, your jobs can pay 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.400 anywhere from fifteen cents to fifty cents an hour. So 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:02.880 imagine having to buy clothing, you know, on the yard 0:17:03.400 --> 0:17:06.720 with that money, which should be issued by the state. 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:14.000 But and then with that amount of time, you know 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:18.760 that that's just even more time in that crime school. 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:23.879 Right, Okay, so you look at so we'll take you 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.600 take county jail. Sure, so in county jail, depending on 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:31.119 how many times you've been there, and you know, a 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:33.760 lot of times, I mean, the statistics are unreal, how 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.960 they a lot of these people will have mental illness. Okay, 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.359 so a lot of times these the mentally ill and 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:42.320 homeless are picked on all the time. So you might go, 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:43.959 you might have gone to jail. I knew a guy 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:46.480 who's like, yeah, I've been arrested thirty times last year, 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.240 and you're just like, that is an unbelievable amount of 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:52.639 times to be arrested. Really, oh yeah, and you know 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.600 it might be just a turnaround. He might have something 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:56.919 like paraphernalia, You'll have a pipe on him or something, 0:17:57.280 --> 0:18:01.440 or a trespassing, and so it's a revolt. So they 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.119 get to clock every time they keep him into jail. 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:08.199 And what happens is the guy might be nonviolent, he 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:11.520 just might have a drug habit. So with his drug habit, though, 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.440 he progressively gets a higher ranking because the more times 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.119 he's been to prison. So you know there's times too, 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:21.160 and if there's any violence, which nowadays, you know, if 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:23.520 you have a domestic violence dispute, if you punch the wall, 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:27.200 that's considered criminal damage. It's considered violent. So you might 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:28.639 be in you know what I mean, you had a 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:32.640 bad night with your wife, punched the wall, whatever, Well, 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.800 you might be locked up with a murderer, a guy 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:37.639 who like, yeah, I just shot two of my cousins 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:42.280 right now, passed the bread and so wow yeah, and 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.000 so you know it's like you look at this and 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.480 because of myself, I've been to prison, you know what 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.119 I mean, I've had violent crimes in the past. So 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:52.560 now when I go in, I might go in for 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.640 shoplifting and my bunkie might be a murderer to where 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.720 I'm like, wait a minute, here, I'm here for you know, 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:04.000 simple shoplifting, trespassing, whatever. This guy is looking at a 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:06.480 hundred years you know, what's to say, He's not going 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:08.720 to stomp on my head in the middle of the night. Sure, 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:12.600 So you know, it's definitely one of those situations where 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:18.600 you have a certain degree of anxiety in the pod 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:21.199 as they call it, and then everything is run you know, 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:26.240 is political. So when I say political, it's and it's 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.119 something animated to do, you know. And I don't know 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.600 if it all started out as you know, to protect, 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:33.560 but everybody's kind of separated by race. 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:34.600 Yeah, yeah, I know that. 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:37.240 And I mean you'll even have guards that in turn 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:39.480 will you know, talk to a certain race of people. 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.440 So if you have a young kid who's being becoming problematic, 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:45.199 they'll go to maybe his older the older guys in 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:47.199 his race and be like, hey, talk to the youngster them. Man, 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.679 he's willing out. And it keeps order to a certain extent, 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.359 but at the same time, it keeps us all on 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:56.480 edge at each other's throat. It's brown against black and 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:00.960 black against white. And even there's Mexican nowals who are 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:03.320 locked up in there, which you know, you didn't think, 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:05.640 you wouldn't think there'd be a distinction, but there's actually 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:11.040 high contention between Chicano's who live here and pissas as 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.600 they call them from Mexico. So a lot of times 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:16.440 since I've been locked up, I've seen those two go 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:18.440 at it more so than the other races. 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.480 So one of the things that I read is that 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:30.360 half that's fifty of inmates return in the first two 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:34.560 years of release. Oh yeah, and you mentioned something about, 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:40.480 you know, the revolving door of I'm guessing this person 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:42.680 might have been homeless. You said he had a drug 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:47.160 habit or something, which, again, at least on this show, 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:54.119 we are of the persuasion that drug use is indicative 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:58.679 of a health issue, not of criminal activity, be it 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.200 mental health or otherwise. You know, self medicating for whatever 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:07.399 your ailment is, or even for recreation is not indicative 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:11.359 of you're not harming anyone else or society by you 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:13.720 know that, that's just the persuasion that we are of 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:18.640 on this on this program. So you know, to hear 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:22.359 that half of the inmates returned in two years or 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:28.440 less suggests to me that prisons are not working as 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:32.000 far as rehabilitating people. Because anything that you do where 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:35.160 it only works half the time, that's that's not that's 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:38.400 not a passing grade and anywhere, if you were to. 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:41.040 Buy a product and it works half the time, would 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:41.919 you not return it? 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:43.840 Yeah, I wouldn't get on the airline where half the 0:21:43.840 --> 0:21:48.720 flights it uh And and so you know, so we'll 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:50.520 go ahead and speak to like the drug problem. 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:55.840 So where you look at other countries such as you know, Amsterdam, Portugal, 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:58.280 a lot of these they come with it as you know, 0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:01.600 a compassion approach and have higher success rates of people, 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:04.280 you know, getting off drugs. And then you look as 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:07.119 far as a homeless situation. Number one reason for homelessness 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:11.040 is there's usually like uh, you know, loss of family, 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:15.159 so there's no loss of support system. So now to 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:20.520 have that demographic of society be so criminalized, it's it's 0:22:20.560 --> 0:22:22.560 it's it's it's horrible. And I'll just running through a 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:25.600 quick scenario of course. So you have a guy, he 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:29.000 has a drug habit, He comes into a into a 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:33.320 into a jail hasso environment. Nobody's happy to be nobody 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:36.919 wants to be there. Let's say he's hurting. He's hurting 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:39.600 really bad because the effects of you know, getting off 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.720 of an opioid, you know, you actually feel physical pain. 0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:46.280 So now this person is at the mercy of those 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:49.040 prisoners around him be victimized. Hey, we don't want to 0:22:49.040 --> 0:22:50.680 see him. I mean I've seen people, you know, they 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:53.119 come in and they're throwing up, and the guy's gotten 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:56.199 beat up because he's you know, throwing up, making a mess. 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:02.280 So mind you in an environment horrible food, okay, I 0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:05.199 mean they give rice on Friday sometimes where you're like, 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:07.320 everyone looks forward to it. The rest is you get 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:11.600 that sloppy rule. It's it's really discussing. It doesn't even 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:15.160 look like it's fit for human consumption. And now you're 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:17.920 going to a courtroom full of people who don't look 0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:22.360 like you, who you know, they almost don't even understand 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:25.560 a lot of the legalese atret speaking, and they pop 0:23:25.600 --> 0:23:27.159 aloi in front of you. Okay, hey, this is your 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:30.280 public pretender as we call it, or your public defender. 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:32.360 He's gonna get you the best deal you can get. 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:37.480 So a lot of times guys will take deals, like 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.600 you said, just to get out of that environment. So 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:43.199 they came up with things because they were so I 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:47.480 want to say it was back in maybe ninety seven 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:49.879 ninety eight, they came up with something called Prop two hundred. 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:54.960 This this is gonna be fun, all right. So Pop 0:23:54.960 --> 0:23:57.080 two hundred came up, and what it was, they sold 0:23:57.119 --> 0:24:01.199 it to the public because drugs wire affect everyone's families. 0:24:01.320 --> 0:24:03.400 So there was an outcry like, hey, you can't lock 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:06.280 my little Johnny up, my sweet little you know, for 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:09.159 drugs and give him hard time with those other animals. 0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:11.199 So he gave him a Prop two hundred. So it 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:14.680 was kind of a diversion program. You went in if 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:17.960 you basically did probation, and if you got tested for drugs, 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:20.440 you know, they would keep you incarcerated for a little 0:24:20.440 --> 0:24:23.359 bit while. But it was basically they couldn't send you 0:24:23.440 --> 0:24:28.320 to prison on this drug because you had a drug problem. 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:31.880 The problem with it was, so let's say Johnny had 0:24:31.880 --> 0:24:34.480 went in and he got caught with, you know, for 0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:39.480 personal use, you know it's methamphetamine. He would then let's say, 0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:42.480 they would have given him a sentence of one point 0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:46.360 five two point five. Well, the thing is is now 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:49.400 with this Prop two hundred, Johnny has a problem that's 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:52.560 not being addressed, and so he's coming in and out 0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:57.120 of prison and their oh, violation, here's thirty days, Ope, violation, 0:24:57.440 --> 0:25:00.280 here's sixty days. And then they're letting him write back 0:25:00.320 --> 0:25:02.399 out for him to go ahead and get high again. 0:25:03.000 --> 0:25:06.320 Well by the time he's done after so much time. 0:25:06.400 --> 0:25:07.840 There a people who have been on this prop two 0:25:07.880 --> 0:25:11.480 hundred for five years. They could have done the prison time, 0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:14.800 They would have done less time incarcerated if they had 0:25:14.840 --> 0:25:16.840 just taken the original one point five or a two 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:19.240 point five. Because he spent so much time in and 0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:22.040 out of jail two months here, three months here, ninety 0:25:22.119 --> 0:25:26.240 days here, six months here, there's no way to keep 0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:30.080 any type of semblance of really, you can't keep a job, 0:25:30.119 --> 0:25:33.600 you can't hold an apartment. So this program that was 0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:36.040 made to help people to keep them out of prison 0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:41.320 actually cripple people, and in terms people like that who 0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:43.600 are coming in and out instead of addressing because there's 0:25:43.640 --> 0:25:44.520 no real rehab. 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:47.919 That's what I was gonna have. Is there any So 0:25:48.000 --> 0:25:50.680 if a person comes in off of the street and 0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:54.440 they very clearly have a drug problem, or they're on drugs, 0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:57.480 or they're throwing up, as you say, well, first, let 0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:01.439 me say something. So Q and I we do a 0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:04.840 show called or we do an outreach. We've done it 0:26:04.840 --> 0:26:08.199 for about ten years now. It's called hashtag lunchbag. We 0:26:08.280 --> 0:26:10.240 feed homeless people in downtown Thames. So this is a 0:26:10.280 --> 0:26:14.320 population that we're familiar with. We go, we partner with CAST, 0:26:14.400 --> 0:26:18.120 the Central Arizona Shelter Services. We have a food pantry supplier, 0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:20.240 the Midwest Food Bank. We have lots of people that 0:26:20.280 --> 0:26:23.679 have supported these initiatives over the years, including this radio 0:26:23.720 --> 0:26:29.120 station and other media outlets as well, and of course 0:26:29.160 --> 0:26:31.040 we have a thousand plus volunteer base, so this is 0:26:31.040 --> 0:26:36.359 a well established outreach. This is the first time hearing, 0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:42.119 after ten years of working with this population that there's 0:26:42.640 --> 0:26:44.640 nothing for them if they end up in cost rebrating. 0:26:44.760 --> 0:26:46.840 I know that sometimes folks will disappear because the police 0:26:46.840 --> 0:26:49.040 will pick them up for whatever. But my assumption has 0:26:49.080 --> 0:26:53.240 always been that you know, if they're involved in you know, 0:26:54.720 --> 0:26:57.880 the criminal justice system that keeps them away from their 0:26:57.920 --> 0:27:00.639 habit long enough at least to get them clean or 0:27:00.720 --> 0:27:04.280 to there, they teach them something about like the harmful 0:27:04.280 --> 0:27:06.600 effects or anything like is there anything like that? 0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:10.720 So prison economics will go ahead. Well, you can also 0:27:10.720 --> 0:27:13.640 get into that at one point there's nothing in there. 0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:16.560 There's there's nothing on the streets that you can't get 0:27:16.600 --> 0:27:20.240 in prison. Just the way the prison economic system works 0:27:20.280 --> 0:27:24.080 out and they might tell you, Okay, well we run 0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:27.320 this program or we run this program for people. Those 0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:32.040 programs are a joke. They really give there's there's really 0:27:32.119 --> 0:27:35.480 no counseling. And the only people I've seen who've been 0:27:35.520 --> 0:27:39.240 successful usually do it on their own or decide to 0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:42.040 seek out religion. There's a lot of religious based programs 0:27:42.040 --> 0:27:45.480 that are excellent. I knew a guy he got himself clean. 0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:50.240 He decided to, you know, give his life over to Mormonism. 0:27:50.400 --> 0:27:50.560 OK. 0:27:51.160 --> 0:27:53.600 And they're very involved in there to where you know, 0:27:53.640 --> 0:27:56.560 they'll come visit you and things, but. 0:27:56.000 --> 0:27:59.160 As far as the state is concerned, programs are not. 0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:02.640 I've heard like sometimes they'll give you like they will 0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:05.640 give you some type of medication to kind of help out, 0:28:05.680 --> 0:28:07.680 like if you get the DTS if you have alcoholism. 0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:10.359 That's like you get the shakes when you drink, if 0:28:10.359 --> 0:28:12.840 you if you're an alcoholic, because you have a physical 0:28:12.880 --> 0:28:16.959 dependency on that at some point to where and but 0:28:17.520 --> 0:28:20.640 very very little, like I said, there's no and I've 0:28:20.640 --> 0:28:23.200 heard a of in her rumors that even that's gone. 0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:26.520 So sometimes they'll put you on you know, sometimes they'll 0:28:26.520 --> 0:28:29.399 give you like psychological meds to try to help with 0:28:29.520 --> 0:28:33.119 but some of those things. It just seems like like 0:28:33.240 --> 0:28:37.520 it's all like experimental drugs. It almost seems like. 0:28:37.640 --> 0:28:41.000 Well, let me let me posit this. If what you're 0:28:41.000 --> 0:28:46.400 saying to me is that everything that's available outside of 0:28:46.400 --> 0:28:48.400 the prison is still available on the inside of the prison. 0:28:49.880 --> 0:28:55.400 If you're saying to me that you know, there's no 0:28:55.600 --> 0:28:59.920 programs in there to really address the root of the issue. 0:29:00.440 --> 0:29:03.320 And I think that this is another point that a 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:07.880 person can make that you know, prisons are not working 0:29:08.120 --> 0:29:11.120 or not, you know, I think the most telling statistic 0:29:11.240 --> 0:29:13.080 is still the fact that fifty percent of the folks 0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:14.600 are back in there after two years. 0:29:14.680 --> 0:29:17.160 Well, the racism rate is even higher than that, like 0:29:17.280 --> 0:29:20.200 just people who that's within the first two years though, 0:29:20.240 --> 0:29:22.640 it's like eighty five percent racism rate of people who 0:29:22.680 --> 0:29:25.760 actually end up not coming back to prison. And it's 0:29:25.800 --> 0:29:28.280 funny because you know, there's a saying like, once you 0:29:28.320 --> 0:29:31.200 have a number, they're all they're your hooks are in you. 0:29:31.400 --> 0:29:34.960 So if you get pulled over something that something you 0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:36.680 might be able to get away with or get let 0:29:36.760 --> 0:29:40.280 go of, which a misdemeanor, you know, you have a history, 0:29:40.320 --> 0:29:42.920 you have a they love it. Hey, you've got a 0:29:43.040 --> 0:29:47.040 historical prior. We're talking prison, do not pass go, you know, 0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:49.720 so it's not like to where you can get certain 0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:52.640 you know, you're just not you're not eligible for those programs. 0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:58.440 This is this is something that really speaks to I 0:29:58.480 --> 0:30:03.440 think the black experience. I'll speak for black males myself 0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:11.240 in particular. You know, my whole life, I've never drank alcohol, 0:30:12.440 --> 0:30:16.880 I've never done any drug. I've never done anything, you 0:30:16.880 --> 0:30:23.760 know like that because of my connection with you know, 0:30:23.960 --> 0:30:27.560 the police and those substances, right, and there's a lot 0:30:27.560 --> 0:30:30.320 of things I've never done because but it's very much 0:30:30.320 --> 0:30:33.240 shaped by police interactions with black men that I've seen 0:30:33.320 --> 0:30:38.160 in my lifetime. And again, I think it speaks to 0:30:38.200 --> 0:30:42.680 the fact that there's something in me that spoke to 0:30:42.720 --> 0:30:44.560 me at a young age that says, well, you know what, 0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:46.480 I can't be regular. I have to be better than 0:30:46.560 --> 0:30:48.320 regular in order to be good enough. 0:30:48.640 --> 0:30:48.840 Right. 0:30:49.640 --> 0:30:53.800 And so I'm obviously not just for black and brown folks, 0:30:53.800 --> 0:30:56.800 but for anybody who's incarcerated. Once you're out, you have 0:30:56.880 --> 0:30:59.200 to be better than everyone in order to be good enough, 0:30:59.320 --> 0:31:02.360 because you know, so you can't afford to make any mistake, 0:31:02.440 --> 0:31:04.720 you know, you know, if you if you have a 0:31:04.840 --> 0:31:08.920 New Year's Eve party and you have a toaster champagne 0:31:08.920 --> 0:31:11.000 and you drive home. That could be another you know, 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:13.640 potential years in time. I guess I never really thought 0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:16.360 about it in that way, but for me, I knew that, 0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:18.880 you know, for me, at least, blackness was enough. I 0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:21.040 don't want to ever have a reason for these people 0:31:21.080 --> 0:31:22.840 to say anything to me, and so I've always kind 0:31:22.840 --> 0:31:26.360 of kept, you know, everything clean. So's it's very interesting that, 0:31:28.960 --> 0:31:32.760 you know, that's the way that the prison system can 0:31:32.880 --> 0:31:35.840 change and shape outcomes, and I'd imagine it's obviously way 0:31:35.840 --> 0:31:38.320 worse for black and brown folks. And then the way 0:31:38.320 --> 0:31:41.440 they tell the story after they murder you, for you know, 0:31:41.600 --> 0:31:44.240 it's like, well he did one thing when he was fourteen, 0:31:44.320 --> 0:31:44.640 and you. 0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:47.080 Know, wait a bit, yeah, you know, you watch these 0:31:47.160 --> 0:31:50.200 these shows and they bring up well and he was seventeen. 0:31:50.320 --> 0:31:54.160 He's shoplifted and make you sound like you're a terrorist. Time. 0:31:55.000 --> 0:31:57.080 Well, if you're just tuning into siving side, bro, I'm 0:31:57.120 --> 0:32:00.520 your host Rams's job. Our guest today is Gonzo. He's 0:32:00.560 --> 0:32:05.360 talking to us about his time in prison. We're discussing 0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:10.480 whether or not prisons work, how effective they are. One 0:32:10.520 --> 0:32:15.360 of the most telling statistics that I've come across is that, 0:32:16.760 --> 0:32:18.720 and I'll say it exactly the way I have it, 0:32:18.760 --> 0:32:23.360 is that half of the inmates will return in within 0:32:23.400 --> 0:32:28.960 two years of their release. Now, we talked about if 0:32:29.000 --> 0:32:33.240 there are drug rehabilitation programs. I do recognize that the 0:32:33.240 --> 0:32:35.720 way this country looks at drugs like it's a criminal issue, 0:32:35.760 --> 0:32:39.840 not the whole country, because in Oregon, I know that 0:32:39.840 --> 0:32:44.080 they've recently changed the laws to where they started treating 0:32:44.880 --> 0:32:47.920 drugs like their health issues and not criminal issues, which 0:32:48.080 --> 0:32:52.160 I'm really excited to see how that program works. There's 0:32:52.240 --> 0:32:54.240 going to be some people who don't like it, but 0:32:54.280 --> 0:32:56.160 those people that don't like it are people that stand 0:32:56.160 --> 0:32:58.760 a profit from most people being in prison. Everyone else 0:32:58.840 --> 0:33:01.560 in terms of the ways Societe works, should be happy, 0:33:01.720 --> 0:33:05.480 you know, but because the effect of it should be 0:33:05.560 --> 0:33:09.000 that there's less crime, less things qualify for crime because 0:33:09.000 --> 0:33:11.760 they're not crime, and then more people get healthy when 0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:14.400 you know, we were able to realize that they have 0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:16.880 a problem. And then the neighboring state. I know they're 0:33:16.880 --> 0:33:20.480 two different places, but Seattle I was just there. I 0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:25.320 was just in both these places. Actually, in Seattle, there's 0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:30.240 a lot of homeless people there For some reason, I 0:33:30.560 --> 0:33:33.080 didn't know this, but man, they treat the homeless people 0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:36.160 like super cool. They're just like kind of they're you know, 0:33:36.240 --> 0:33:38.280 they're not they're they're just people. They just happen to 0:33:38.280 --> 0:33:40.160 be unsheltered, and so that's super cool. 0:33:41.720 --> 0:33:42.960 That's really expensive to live in. 0:33:43.600 --> 0:33:46.080 Yeah, I guess that might Yeah, that might be part 0:33:46.080 --> 0:33:50.120 of it as well. But yeah, the drug rehabilitation, if 0:33:50.120 --> 0:33:51.800 they give you some medicine to help you kind of 0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:55.760 wean you off of it, you know that that's that's okay. 0:33:55.800 --> 0:33:57.560 But in terms of like attacking the root of the problem, 0:33:57.600 --> 0:33:59.120 it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot that you've 0:33:59.200 --> 0:34:02.720 encountered that that's really takes place in the prisons. Now, 0:34:02.720 --> 0:34:07.320 what about folks where they very clearly have mental health issues. 0:34:07.560 --> 0:34:10.360 Do you know of any programs where you know, they 0:34:10.400 --> 0:34:12.880 are their doctors or there any anything like that that 0:34:12.920 --> 0:34:14.160 you've encountered. 0:34:13.800 --> 0:34:16.200 So, you know, so to get back kind of to 0:34:16.200 --> 0:34:18.120 to what we were talking about, as far as you know, 0:34:18.520 --> 0:34:22.399 the jails run like a business. So if I give 0:34:22.520 --> 0:34:26.319 you certain medication to keep you, you know, stabilized off 0:34:26.320 --> 0:34:29.080 of whatever drug you're coming down from, that comes out 0:34:29.080 --> 0:34:31.359 of my profit, so they try to wean you off 0:34:31.400 --> 0:34:35.160 of that as quickly as possible and if they can 0:34:35.200 --> 0:34:37.680 get something, you know, because there's FED the Feds A 0:34:38.480 --> 0:34:41.080 we look at all as the government, but you know 0:34:41.120 --> 0:34:43.560 there's a difference between the state and federal. So there 0:34:43.560 --> 0:34:45.759 are some programs that are supported by the FEDS with 0:34:45.840 --> 0:34:48.279 they'll put which is what's what they'll push. And this 0:34:48.360 --> 0:34:50.760 happens in prison a lot of times too, to where 0:34:51.719 --> 0:34:54.200 you know, they'll push a program and it's it's really 0:34:54.320 --> 0:34:56.720 just a joke. They do it to get the funding 0:34:56.800 --> 0:34:59.120 for it. You know. It's usually taught by you know, 0:34:59.200 --> 0:35:02.560 some counselor who's you know, ready to be retired, and 0:35:02.600 --> 0:35:05.160 they go through the bare minimums in order to qualify 0:35:05.200 --> 0:35:08.440 for the program. And now I know in jail a 0:35:08.440 --> 0:35:10.680 lot of times, you know you might have like AA, 0:35:11.560 --> 0:35:14.440 but see, everything in the jail is a security issue. 0:35:14.840 --> 0:35:17.080 So a lot of times those meetings that you were 0:35:17.080 --> 0:35:19.719 depending on to go to, well, you know there's security. 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:22.719 We can't let you out. You can't go especially now 0:35:22.920 --> 0:35:26.759 with the COVID when they're short staffed. Oh we don't 0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:28.800 have anyone because they have to have a guard posted 0:35:29.280 --> 0:35:31.239 so that you can go ahead and go to those classes, 0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:35.200 so nothing overrides security there. So a lot of these 0:35:35.239 --> 0:35:38.759 programs that you think would go to help people, it don't. 0:35:39.560 --> 0:35:41.600 That's not happening at all, And there's all to me, 0:35:41.680 --> 0:35:44.320 I've always thought that there was an excuse to where 0:35:45.080 --> 0:35:48.400 what they do offer it just it's not enough to 0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:52.160 really help somebody who really even if the person we're 0:35:52.239 --> 0:35:55.239 serious about trying to change their life around, there's really 0:35:55.280 --> 0:35:58.040 no incentive for them to do it. They're just warehoused 0:35:58.600 --> 0:36:01.600 to where. Okay, well to rock this time down and 0:36:02.040 --> 0:36:05.920 play some dominoes and maybe play some ball and okay, 0:36:06.000 --> 0:36:08.200 my release date comes. Now. 0:36:08.239 --> 0:36:11.400 You said something earlier. You talked about a person coming 0:36:11.440 --> 0:36:16.480 in and he's throwing out and then the people beat 0:36:16.560 --> 0:36:19.160 him up because he's throwing out, and you said he 0:36:19.239 --> 0:36:22.959 was making a mess. Now I know that this goes 0:36:23.000 --> 0:36:27.759 without saying, but have you seen a lot in the 0:36:27.760 --> 0:36:29.800 way of violence in prison? 0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:32.040 Yeah, violence is a way of life in there, so it. 0:36:32.120 --> 0:36:33.759 Certainly okay, so talk about that a little bit. 0:36:34.200 --> 0:36:38.400 So you have to think you're in a small, encapsulated 0:36:38.480 --> 0:36:41.120 environment with no one who wants to be there. No 0:36:41.160 --> 0:36:43.359 one is getting happy news, you know what I mean? 0:36:43.400 --> 0:36:45.440 Every time they go to court. You know, some of 0:36:45.480 --> 0:36:48.960 these guys are looking at some really serious time. So 0:36:50.239 --> 0:36:55.880 you know, I know the way that we were broken 0:36:55.960 --> 0:36:59.520 up in races, certain races, that's how they handle They 0:36:59.560 --> 0:37:03.719 discipline in their people. So they just you get disciplined 0:37:03.760 --> 0:37:06.160 to where if you're out of line. Let's say, you know, 0:37:06.360 --> 0:37:09.319 guy's not taking a shower. You know that's unhygienic in 0:37:09.320 --> 0:37:14.480 that small area, so they beat the guy up. The 0:37:14.520 --> 0:37:16.520 guy might be on a power trip that day. And 0:37:16.600 --> 0:37:20.000 I've seen some really ugly things happen to where there's 0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:24.799 a certain rule set in prison, which I believe nowadays 0:37:24.800 --> 0:37:27.440 has been so watered down, and it gets manipulated because 0:37:27.480 --> 0:37:30.040 these are people. A lot of these guys are the criminals. 0:37:30.280 --> 0:37:33.319 All these guys are just the biggest poles you will 0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:36.520 ever run into, people you would never ever associate with, 0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:41.120 we say in real life, to where they see you know, 0:37:41.360 --> 0:37:44.920 they prey on the week. So you know, I've seen 0:37:44.960 --> 0:37:51.080 it to where a guy is okay, you get you 0:37:51.120 --> 0:37:54.480 know some money from the front, you know, commissary, well, 0:37:54.480 --> 0:37:57.640 people will be like, oh that guy's a snitch, like 0:37:57.680 --> 0:38:01.360 what So usually you have to produce paperwork, but you know, 0:38:01.480 --> 0:38:03.440 mob rules, Oh he's a snitch, so they beat him 0:38:03.480 --> 0:38:08.080 up and take his commisary. Now, if the guy decides, hey, 0:38:08.120 --> 0:38:09.400 I don't want to get beat up and goes and 0:38:09.400 --> 0:38:12.280 tells the guard that justifies se told J was a snitch. 0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:15.480 So it's just like you'll see things like that. So 0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:18.520 in order to survive, you have to fight. So it's 0:38:18.520 --> 0:38:22.479 a lot of times, you know, I've had to fight 0:38:22.560 --> 0:38:25.320 people just because it's like fight one, fight a thousand, 0:38:26.080 --> 0:38:28.040 you know, because you don't want to seem like an 0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:31.240 easy mark, because people will manipulate you and that people 0:38:31.280 --> 0:38:32.359 will take advantage. 0:38:33.080 --> 0:38:39.440 So I think that for someone you know, obviously, you know, 0:38:40.200 --> 0:38:45.680 prison has affected my family. It cost me time with you, right, 0:38:47.760 --> 0:38:55.720 and I recognize that it is a problem just because 0:38:56.880 --> 0:38:59.640 I mean, the reason that this very show exists is 0:38:59.680 --> 0:39:05.600 to give a voice to people who otherwise don't have 0:39:05.640 --> 0:39:10.239 a voice, especially in areas where one is necessary. And 0:39:12.080 --> 0:39:16.680 you know, for as far back as this country goes, 0:39:16.880 --> 0:39:21.600 this whole criminal justice system has been very unfair to 0:39:22.120 --> 0:39:27.720 black folks, especially brown folks as well, and it seems 0:39:27.760 --> 0:39:31.520 like nowadays it's unfair to everyone. It doesn't really seem 0:39:31.560 --> 0:39:35.680 like it's you know, working at all based on the 0:39:35.760 --> 0:39:37.960 numbers that we're looking at. But there is one thing 0:39:38.000 --> 0:39:40.239 that I came across, and I want to get your 0:39:40.280 --> 0:39:41.799 thoughts on it, because I have some thoughts on it 0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:44.279 as well. But there is a school of thought that 0:39:44.400 --> 0:39:51.319 says that mass incarceration over the past will call it 0:39:51.480 --> 0:39:54.839 thirty years in this country, thirty forty years, mass incarceration 0:39:54.960 --> 0:40:00.480 has led to a marked drop in violent crime. Do 0:40:00.560 --> 0:40:02.240 you have any thoughts on that? 0:40:02.360 --> 0:40:06.960 A lot of thoughts actually, So violent crime, if you 0:40:07.000 --> 0:40:09.200 look at just historically, it's going to have an ebb 0:40:09.239 --> 0:40:13.400 and flow. Nowadays, it's not as profitable to do violent 0:40:13.440 --> 0:40:17.200 crime because usually the reasons for doing crime, unless you're 0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:22.280 as sociopath, is to have financial gang. There's no reason 0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:24.840 to do Why nowadays would I put a gun in 0:40:24.880 --> 0:40:27.320 your face when I can just steal on a computer 0:40:27.400 --> 0:40:31.839 or a laptop and never have any interaction. So I 0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:35.279 think that's what's contributing to it more so than the 0:40:35.360 --> 0:40:39.280 whole Okay, well, we're incarcerating more people because those crimes. 0:40:39.920 --> 0:40:44.200 If you take the numbers of property crime and you 0:40:44.280 --> 0:40:47.719 take the numbers of white collar crime and compare that 0:40:47.960 --> 0:40:51.600 to the drop in violent crime, well you've just replaced 0:40:51.600 --> 0:40:55.239 one crime with another. Sure, So you know, and as 0:40:55.280 --> 0:40:58.920 a society we're moving away from violence to where it's 0:40:58.960 --> 0:41:01.640 frowned upon. I mean, think about it. When's the last 0:41:01.640 --> 0:41:03.919 time you saw a fight in the street to where 0:41:03.960 --> 0:41:07.799 I know growing up that was every other day. I 0:41:07.840 --> 0:41:10.839 think just as a society, we're changing. So I think 0:41:10.920 --> 0:41:13.319 that's a misleading statistic when they're like, well, look we're 0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:16.279 incarcerating more people, so violence is going down. I don't 0:41:16.280 --> 0:41:20.560 think that has anything to do with it whatsoever. Sure, Now, 0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:22.919 as far as the mass incarceration, I know a lot 0:41:22.920 --> 0:41:27.560 of people are getting rich. Yeah, you know, are getting 0:41:27.680 --> 0:41:30.040 rich off of this because it's this whole industry. I mean, 0:41:30.320 --> 0:41:33.680 you look at there's like the little podunk towns like Florence, Arizona, 0:41:33.800 --> 0:41:36.200 which is majority has a majority of prisons down there. 0:41:36.640 --> 0:41:39.880 Those tax dollars keep those that keeps that population working, 0:41:40.680 --> 0:41:43.560 and you know, those tax dollars that goes into that 0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:45.600 little city, you know, if you look at them, I 0:41:45.640 --> 0:41:47.520 think down there too, they think the tax rates a 0:41:47.520 --> 0:41:49.160 little bit higher. I think it's like twelve percent on 0:41:49.239 --> 0:41:49.920 sales tax. 0:41:50.239 --> 0:41:52.920 It's specifically for the prisons. 0:41:53.080 --> 0:41:56.360 Well, it's not spetificlar prisons. It's to keep the town going. 0:41:56.719 --> 0:41:59.319 Oh okay, so but those the majority of everyone in 0:41:59.360 --> 0:42:02.279 that town works in the prison. So in turn, you're 0:42:02.400 --> 0:42:07.120 just you know, you're reallocating money. So the state basically 0:42:08.040 --> 0:42:10.279 is paying these people to keep this town going. 0:42:10.480 --> 0:42:13.360 You know what blows my mind is that, you know, 0:42:13.960 --> 0:42:19.960 it almost behind every single curtain, not like behind two 0:42:19.960 --> 0:42:23.160 to three. Let's not levels like layers involved. It's just 0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:28.120 behind every curtain at almost every level of politics or anything, 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:33.400 especially things that affect black folks, brown folks, poor folks, 0:42:33.480 --> 0:42:39.920 and young folks, there's a huge cash grab always and 0:42:39.960 --> 0:42:42.879 it's the wildest thing. And then and I'm not one 0:42:42.920 --> 0:42:45.919 of those people who's not not patriotic, right, I love 0:42:45.960 --> 0:42:47.359 this country same as anyone else. 0:42:47.440 --> 0:42:47.600 Right. 0:42:47.680 --> 0:42:49.400 I get emotional when I see the flag at the 0:42:49.440 --> 0:42:53.239 end of the movie and all that I live here too, 0:42:53.320 --> 0:42:56.520 you know, I'll bleed to keep the stripes red. 0:42:57.560 --> 0:42:58.040 I love that. 0:42:58.120 --> 0:43:04.200 I love that. But this idea that people, some people 0:43:04.280 --> 0:43:06.480 have that this is the greatest country in the world 0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:09.279 and the history of the you know, and they're just 0:43:09.600 --> 0:43:11.799 it's it's like, you do you do we see the 0:43:11.800 --> 0:43:13.080 same thing that's happening here. 0:43:13.280 --> 0:43:15.320 I mean we're great at incarcerating people. 0:43:15.960 --> 0:43:17.920 That we're number one. Yeah, And I think I saw 0:43:17.920 --> 0:43:19.560 a listen not too long ago that said the things 0:43:19.560 --> 0:43:21.480 that the USA is actually number one, and it's all 0:43:21.480 --> 0:43:24.040 these terrible things and then all the things that you 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:26.360 know are metrics that you would use to measure a 0:43:26.360 --> 0:43:29.920 society or actually, you know, we're pretty pretty near the bottom. 0:43:29.920 --> 0:43:32.880 We can't take care of people's health. You know, we 0:43:33.320 --> 0:43:36.800 obviously have you no issues with you know, people having 0:43:37.200 --> 0:43:39.880 safe lives on the street, and we're not addressing that 0:43:39.920 --> 0:43:40.680 in a proper way. 0:43:40.880 --> 0:43:42.839 You know, I've been I've been to you know, we've 0:43:42.880 --> 0:43:45.080 been fortunate enough to be be to a few places, 0:43:45.480 --> 0:43:47.040 and I've seen how it runs. And listen, this is 0:43:47.040 --> 0:43:50.240 a great country. Of course, it's just one of these 0:43:50.280 --> 0:43:53.160 things as far as you know, this incarceration thing, and 0:43:53.160 --> 0:43:57.040 it goes so deep, and it's like the public has 0:43:57.080 --> 0:44:01.279 been so fooled that I really think it's almost like 0:44:01.320 --> 0:44:04.360 we have to re educate the public on what's actually 0:44:04.400 --> 0:44:07.400 going on, because they'll give something and they'll sell it 0:44:07.440 --> 0:44:09.440 to the public in one way and the public will 0:44:09.440 --> 0:44:12.319 be like, hey, that sounds like like the prop two hundred, Hey, 0:44:12.320 --> 0:44:14.960 that sounds like a great idea, let's not send these 0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:17.799 young kids who have a drug problem to prison. But 0:44:17.840 --> 0:44:20.440 then when you actually look at the way the program 0:44:20.520 --> 0:44:24.719 is laid out and it's the way it's actually working out, 0:44:24.880 --> 0:44:28.799 it's it's it's it's it's horrible. Yeah, And I think 0:44:28.800 --> 0:44:32.560 the powers that be plan this, They they know what's 0:44:32.600 --> 0:44:33.000 going on. 0:44:33.080 --> 0:44:35.880 Oh listen, I'll tell you this. So I went to school. 0:44:36.440 --> 0:44:40.080 So my my bachelor's is in marketing. My master's is 0:44:40.160 --> 0:44:42.319 in management. I just say that because I. 0:44:42.239 --> 0:44:44.839 Can't wonderful thing. 0:44:45.840 --> 0:44:47.960 But so I went to school to learn marketing at 0:44:48.000 --> 0:44:51.279 Arizona State WP Kerry. So it wasn't It was a 0:44:51.280 --> 0:44:57.120 good school. And one of the things that we learned 0:44:57.560 --> 0:45:02.840 in school is that sex sells. But there's something that 0:45:02.880 --> 0:45:06.560 I learned when I got out of school, when I 0:45:06.560 --> 0:45:08.560 got became an adult, I was able to function in 0:45:08.600 --> 0:45:12.240 the real world where things really happen, and I realized 0:45:12.239 --> 0:45:18.040 there's something that sells easier, faster, and it's more readily 0:45:18.040 --> 0:45:19.440 available than even sex. 0:45:20.120 --> 0:45:21.040 Fear. Fear. 0:45:21.520 --> 0:45:23.400 That's it. If you can, if you can get these 0:45:23.440 --> 0:45:26.640 people afraid of something, man, you nailed it. I didn't 0:45:26.680 --> 0:45:28.439 know if you would have seen that coming. I should 0:45:28.440 --> 0:45:30.160 have known. I should have known better. 0:45:30.239 --> 0:45:34.120 Listen, people will make horrible decisions, I mean out of 0:45:34.600 --> 0:45:36.600 and and just even people who have been close to 0:45:36.680 --> 0:45:39.720 even with this COVID situation and some of the other things, 0:45:39.719 --> 0:45:42.680 they're just like, well, hey, you know what, I'll give 0:45:42.760 --> 0:45:45.919 up for civil liberties if it means I'm safe. Yeah, 0:45:45.960 --> 0:45:49.360 And that's just really I'm just like, Wow, it's it's 0:45:49.880 --> 0:45:52.200 you know, it's it's frightening, you know. 0:45:52.280 --> 0:45:56.360 There. I think it might have been uh uh, maybe 0:45:56.480 --> 0:45:59.200 Edward Snowden or one of those guys that you know, 0:45:59.239 --> 0:46:03.319 love him or hate him. He said something like you know, 0:46:04.960 --> 0:46:07.959 you know you're you're on he was He was talking 0:46:08.000 --> 0:46:12.240 about like your online privacy, you know, like the privacy 0:46:12.280 --> 0:46:14.279 of you know, your the contents of your telephone, the 0:46:14.280 --> 0:46:16.880 privacy of you know, everything. Why it's so important to 0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:23.520 keep that separate from the government and to people. A 0:46:23.520 --> 0:46:25.320 lot of folks says, well, you know, I got nothing 0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:27.600 to hide, so you know it's fine, let's grant the 0:46:27.600 --> 0:46:30.360 government access to to catch the bad guys or whatever. 0:46:32.840 --> 0:46:35.160 And this guy made a statement that I thought was 0:46:35.200 --> 0:46:40.360 so profound. He says something to the effect of well saying, 0:46:42.000 --> 0:46:44.759 you know, I don't need rights to my privacy because 0:46:44.760 --> 0:46:47.799 I have nothing to hide. Is akin to saying I 0:46:47.840 --> 0:46:50.239 don't need freedom of speech because I have nothing to say. 0:46:50.719 --> 0:46:52.840 And I thought that was such a profound statement that 0:46:52.840 --> 0:46:56.000 it really it stuck with me. But I do want 0:46:56.000 --> 0:46:59.279 to get back to what we were talking about, that 0:46:59.480 --> 0:47:05.520 argument that mass incarceration has led to, you know, a 0:47:05.640 --> 0:47:10.640 drop in violent crime. If I were to challenge that, 0:47:11.080 --> 0:47:14.000 you know, I've talked with some people, one person in particular, 0:47:14.000 --> 0:47:17.080 her name is Zara She. She works with Black Lives 0:47:17.120 --> 0:47:20.520 Matter Phoenix Metro in Arizona, where I live, where we live, 0:47:22.080 --> 0:47:26.120 and you know, she she made a great point, and 0:47:26.440 --> 0:47:28.279 you know, there's something that if you really think about it, 0:47:28.280 --> 0:47:31.400 it makes sense. You know a lot of the mass 0:47:31.400 --> 0:47:37.040 in car incarceration didn't come from violent criminals at all. 0:47:37.120 --> 0:47:39.359 There was no there wasn't that wasn't what it was. 0:47:39.440 --> 0:47:46.200 It came from this misguided war on drugs. And and uh, 0:47:46.880 --> 0:47:49.719 I don't know if many people know the name Brian Stevenson, 0:47:49.800 --> 0:47:53.400 but that's someone very much worth looking into. He runs 0:47:54.200 --> 0:47:56.840 an initiative called the Equal Justice Initiative. They actually did 0:47:56.880 --> 0:48:01.040 a movie about him and Michael B. Jordon is the 0:48:01.040 --> 0:48:03.719 stars in the movie. But I've known this guy and 0:48:04.080 --> 0:48:05.960 watched him for a very long time because he's kind 0:48:05.960 --> 0:48:08.000 of one of the heroes that I look up to. Anyway, 0:48:10.800 --> 0:48:15.680 you know, there's this misguided war on drugs that again 0:48:15.760 --> 0:48:22.879 affects communities where drugs were deliberately put into those communities 0:48:23.200 --> 0:48:26.880 by the very government that imposed the laws onto those communities. 0:48:27.040 --> 0:48:29.160 They're coming after issue, you know. 0:48:29.239 --> 0:48:31.560 And the thing is sometimes people will you know, hit 0:48:31.560 --> 0:48:33.319 me up online and they'll say things like, you know, 0:48:34.239 --> 0:48:36.080 you know, black people are just playing the victims or 0:48:36.160 --> 0:48:38.120 you know, those troll sorts of folks. You know, people 0:48:38.120 --> 0:48:41.560 are not taking responsibilities whatever, or they they have this 0:48:41.640 --> 0:48:46.920 sort of delusional view of the facts, you know. And 0:48:47.480 --> 0:48:49.759 you know, and I say that as often as it can, 0:48:49.800 --> 0:48:51.800 but the government is admitted to these things. The government 0:48:52.239 --> 0:48:54.239 has it will stand by, Yeah, we did that. These 0:48:54.239 --> 0:48:56.399 are things that we did, and this is what we're 0:48:56.400 --> 0:48:59.400 currently doing now, you know what I mean. These statistics 0:48:59.400 --> 0:49:01.720 are like it's on Google, like you can google it yourself, 0:49:01.760 --> 0:49:08.440 you know, And there's a to steal a phrase, this 0:49:08.640 --> 0:49:14.200 stunning silence, like everybody sees it happening, and there's there's 0:49:14.239 --> 0:49:16.120 nothing you know, and so in our own way. You know, 0:49:16.160 --> 0:49:18.200 I like to to talk about it, but yes, this 0:49:18.360 --> 0:49:28.680 misguided war on drugs that takes folks with an entrepreneurial 0:49:28.719 --> 0:49:32.000 spirit that might be met putting it kindly, I'll admit that. 0:49:32.280 --> 0:49:33.600 But I've heard this argument. 0:49:33.800 --> 0:49:35.680 Yeah, yeah, but that might be me putting it kindly, 0:49:35.719 --> 0:49:39.440 but it's I think it rings true, you know, taking 0:49:39.480 --> 0:49:42.920 advantage of the resources that they have at their disposal. 0:49:43.120 --> 0:49:44.640 You know, I see where the money is, how the 0:49:44.680 --> 0:49:47.680 money's moving in the environment that I'm in. I recognize 0:49:47.680 --> 0:49:49.799 the pit falls, and I get out there and I 0:49:49.800 --> 0:49:52.239 play the game. Either I'm going to steal food or 0:49:52.280 --> 0:49:54.520 I'm going to hustle to make make enough money to 0:49:54.560 --> 0:49:56.080 have food. You know, people do a lot when they're 0:49:56.120 --> 0:49:58.520 hungry or when you know there's you know, I come 0:49:58.520 --> 0:50:03.640 from California, so the the gap between poor and rich 0:50:04.280 --> 0:50:09.920 is way bigger than in a lot of places because 0:50:10.040 --> 0:50:12.160 you know, on the same street where you have to 0:50:12.239 --> 0:50:15.040 drive to the grocery store, you have to drive to 0:50:15.040 --> 0:50:16.920 go get food, set whatever it is that you're doing. 0:50:16.960 --> 0:50:19.640 On that same street, you could drive and there's ferraris 0:50:19.640 --> 0:50:24.319 and rolls races using that same street, you know, and 0:50:24.800 --> 0:50:29.839 that will motivate you to do something eventually. And that's 0:50:29.840 --> 0:50:31.799 not to say that you know, people can't have nice 0:50:31.840 --> 0:50:34.040 things and that the poor won't always be with us, 0:50:34.040 --> 0:50:38.880 but I think that there's certainly something to be said about, 0:50:39.719 --> 0:50:43.279 you know, when the poor have really nothing and they're 0:50:43.320 --> 0:50:45.439 starving and they're scraping to get by, and the rich 0:50:45.520 --> 0:50:49.439 have way more than any human being could ever do 0:50:49.760 --> 0:50:52.160 anything within a lifetime I mean two or ten. 0:50:52.360 --> 0:50:55.520 I mean, we'd have to almost a whole another shit 0:50:54.760 --> 0:50:58.759 different just on like poverty, and you know, even the 0:50:58.800 --> 0:51:01.800 effects of the school system, of how schools are funded 0:51:01.920 --> 0:51:04.360 to where it's like a prison to a school a 0:51:04.400 --> 0:51:07.120 prison pipeline, and to what they're causing a lot of time. 0:51:07.920 --> 0:51:10.719 But you know, so so back to as far as 0:51:10.719 --> 0:51:13.360 you know, with the drop in violent crime, I just 0:51:13.400 --> 0:51:16.480 feel that's naturally where we're headed as a society, to 0:51:16.600 --> 0:51:20.000 where if there's something as you say, you know, like 0:51:20.080 --> 0:51:22.960 let's say this COVID and it was there's no jobs 0:51:23.040 --> 0:51:25.800 and there's nothing, I'll definitely will definitely see an uptick 0:51:25.800 --> 0:51:30.600 in violence. So I think just where we are society wise, 0:51:30.640 --> 0:51:33.080 the way crime is done. A lot of times, you know, 0:51:33.239 --> 0:51:37.000 crime is done like you said to to you know, 0:51:37.400 --> 0:51:43.320 obtain financial goods and violence just it's not the easiest 0:51:43.320 --> 0:51:46.640 way to do it now. And also taking into effect, 0:51:46.640 --> 0:51:48.719 it's funny because we would always say, like when we're 0:51:48.719 --> 0:51:51.440 in jail, you'll see someone who always and there's always 0:51:51.480 --> 0:51:53.880 that person who's never been had any encounter with the 0:51:53.920 --> 0:51:56.360 cops and now is coming to jail. And you know, 0:51:56.520 --> 0:51:59.200 I know my rights and this isn't right. I'm not 0:51:59.200 --> 0:52:02.160 supposed this is nots to have it, and like, welcome 0:52:02.200 --> 0:52:04.640 to the real world. That is, it doesn't work that 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:07.319 way in the in the in the prison walls, does 0:52:07.520 --> 0:52:10.600 not work at all. And and and you'll see that, 0:52:10.680 --> 0:52:14.560 and it's you'll you'll see the difference in sentencing along 0:52:14.719 --> 0:52:18.719 racial racial lines. Yeah yeah, So I mean you'll look 0:52:18.719 --> 0:52:21.759 at so like you said, take violence. So if I 0:52:21.840 --> 0:52:24.320 go into a bank and I wave a gun around 0:52:24.560 --> 0:52:27.319 and say, hey, there's a robbery, and now that was 0:52:27.360 --> 0:52:30.400 becoming so prominent at one time that usually that was 0:52:30.440 --> 0:52:33.759 always a federal crime. Now sometimes if it's not enough, 0:52:33.840 --> 0:52:36.120 the person didn't get away with enough money or there's 0:52:36.160 --> 0:52:39.680 not enough you know, instances of them doing the bank robbery, 0:52:39.920 --> 0:52:43.000 they'll kick that to the state. So it's nothing to Okay, hey, 0:52:43.000 --> 0:52:45.960 I robbed a bank with a gun. Usually that would 0:52:46.000 --> 0:52:48.600 go federal. No, they'll let the state have it. So 0:52:48.719 --> 0:52:51.640 I've seen that to where you know, or someone who 0:52:51.719 --> 0:52:55.880 goes in and passes a note. Very very different sentencing 0:52:55.880 --> 0:52:58.560 guidelines when it comes to that now, because if you 0:52:58.640 --> 0:53:01.960 use a weapon during a crime, I mean you're looking 0:53:02.000 --> 0:53:06.000 at you can look anywhere from five to twelve to 0:53:06.040 --> 0:53:08.360 where if you just passed a note and rob the 0:53:08.360 --> 0:53:10.640 bank and you just you tell her, hey, I'm gonna 0:53:10.640 --> 0:53:12.960 blow this place up if he'll give me money. You know, 0:53:13.000 --> 0:53:15.000 I've seen people get away with you know, two and 0:53:15.040 --> 0:53:18.040 a half three, you know, I saw this one guy. 0:53:18.080 --> 0:53:20.759 It was funny, you know, all American, you know, blonde hair, 0:53:20.840 --> 0:53:24.160 blue eye guy. He had done a few banks where 0:53:24.160 --> 0:53:26.439 he robbed it with a note. So we're like, man, 0:53:26.480 --> 0:53:29.640 you're done, kid, you know what I mean, they got you. Well, 0:53:29.680 --> 0:53:32.400 his lawyer came in and they were offering three years. 0:53:32.960 --> 0:53:35.439 Lawyer's like, don't take that, sweetye. We're gonna go ahead 0:53:35.440 --> 0:53:38.640 and work that down for you. Like wait a minute, 0:53:38.640 --> 0:53:43.120 this guy robbed multiple banks, you know, and then you know, 0:53:43.480 --> 0:53:45.480 and then on the flip side, you know, who could 0:53:45.480 --> 0:53:47.880 say I've seen guys who go home invasion they're getting 0:53:47.880 --> 0:53:50.279 twelve years right off the gate, and. 0:53:50.280 --> 0:53:54.640 So yeah, yeah, So I think you hit the nail 0:53:54.680 --> 0:53:56.880 on the head when you said that. You know, sentencing, 0:53:56.920 --> 0:54:00.719 the way sentencing is passed down is it's it's very 0:54:02.719 --> 0:54:05.520 I guess confusing is not the right word, but inconsistent. 0:54:06.000 --> 0:54:08.920 And that's the problem with the inconsistency of it all. 0:54:08.960 --> 0:54:11.279 And then that's the problem when you get mandatory minimums. 0:54:11.920 --> 0:54:14.480 You know, it's like, well does this qualify for this? 0:54:14.800 --> 0:54:20.120 And very to me, very very very racist. So they 0:54:20.120 --> 0:54:22.319 have this program. Now it's funny to where if you're 0:54:22.320 --> 0:54:27.240 a repeat offender, it's called you know, the repeat Offender program, 0:54:27.680 --> 0:54:32.279 but they label it rope so and it brings up 0:54:32.520 --> 0:54:36.359 you know, you're being lynched, like right, so when you 0:54:36.360 --> 0:54:41.719 go in there, So you go in and no, it 0:54:41.800 --> 0:54:45.000 is it's funny, it's so on the nose. You have 0:54:45.120 --> 0:54:48.080 to do it. So, you know, so go in, you 0:54:48.160 --> 0:54:50.319 go in with a procession of people and you sit 0:54:50.360 --> 0:54:53.440 in a jury box when you're incarcerated to address the judge. 0:54:54.000 --> 0:54:56.160 So your lawyers will come by and they'll talk to you. 0:54:56.640 --> 0:54:59.000 And then if you see the prosecution's desk and you 0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:01.640 see that pink fi and with your name on it. 0:55:01.800 --> 0:55:05.279 That means you've been roped. And you know, people make 0:55:05.400 --> 0:55:09.000 joke about it like, oh they rope like even that 0:55:09.160 --> 0:55:12.640 is really how it is, and they take pride in it. 0:55:12.719 --> 0:55:17.600 They think that's that's hilarious and not seeing that that's 0:55:17.640 --> 0:55:22.239 the most racist thing. And listen to sentencing guidelines if 0:55:22.239 --> 0:55:25.719 you're roped are almost double what it would normally be. 0:55:26.000 --> 0:55:28.839 So back, So I was telling you that it's only 0:55:28.880 --> 0:55:34.880 four Well now you're looking at seven point five nine. Yeah, 0:55:34.920 --> 0:55:37.200 you know, you know I've known guys stole video games, 0:55:37.200 --> 0:55:40.239 got sixteen years what a. 0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:46.000 Yeah, well I think that. So I want to say this. 0:55:47.120 --> 0:55:51.799 You know, I read a report about a prison that 0:55:52.600 --> 0:55:55.120 had a contract with the state. They're going to build 0:55:55.120 --> 0:55:58.600 this new prison and they need to have eighty five 0:55:58.640 --> 0:56:03.040 percent capacity, can't go below that or else, you know whatever, 0:56:03.080 --> 0:56:07.080 And so the state has promised that we're going to 0:56:07.160 --> 0:56:13.640 have eighty five percent of your prison filled up to 0:56:13.719 --> 0:56:17.000 this company that built the prison, right, And I think 0:56:17.040 --> 0:56:19.120 that to make a promise like that. 0:56:20.320 --> 0:56:21.600 It's so nasty, isn't it. 0:56:21.960 --> 0:56:26.000 Well, I think it's beyond nasty. It's I think it's 0:56:26.840 --> 0:56:29.400 what's the word I want to use. It flies in 0:56:29.440 --> 0:56:34.840 the face of what the state should be pursuing, which 0:56:35.000 --> 0:56:38.360 is the exact opposite. Right, we want this prison to 0:56:38.440 --> 0:56:42.480 be at most ten percent full, you know what I mean. 0:56:42.520 --> 0:56:44.160 We don't want to have to use the prison. We 0:56:44.239 --> 0:56:46.200 want people to be free. We want there to be 0:56:46.280 --> 0:56:48.399 no crime. We want a society where there's no harm, 0:56:48.440 --> 0:56:51.440 everyone is harmonious, and things are equitable, and we really 0:56:51.480 --> 0:56:53.440 don't have to worry about this sort of thing. Obviously, 0:56:53.520 --> 0:56:56.719 crime is going to be with us in large complicated societies. 0:56:56.760 --> 0:57:01.160 But to promise anyone eighty five percent incarceration and I 0:57:01.200 --> 0:57:06.959 think that that sets into motion a chain of events actions, 0:57:07.160 --> 0:57:11.920 you know, and the right right with the sentencing and 0:57:11.960 --> 0:57:14.920 the police sing and you know, and neighborhoods that are 0:57:14.960 --> 0:57:20.400 overly policed, et cetera. And you know, at the end 0:57:20.480 --> 0:57:24.560 of the day, when we look at you know, I 0:57:24.600 --> 0:57:29.440 think just the the the repeat offender rate, you know, well, 0:57:29.480 --> 0:57:32.200 like I said, within two years, fifty percent of the 0:57:32.200 --> 0:57:38.000 folks will be back in the very prisons that they left. 0:57:38.560 --> 0:57:41.919 And I think that that speaks to the fact that 0:57:43.120 --> 0:57:51.880 there's not only corruption, there's not only backwards promises, you know, 0:57:51.960 --> 0:57:54.640 the states should have have a promise and an obligation 0:57:54.720 --> 0:57:59.040 to society, not to prisons, you know. And that goes 0:57:59.040 --> 0:58:03.400 from the governor in Arizona's name is Doug Deucy, all 0:58:03.440 --> 0:58:06.720 the way down to the people who are policing on 0:58:07.200 --> 0:58:10.520 the streets, you know. And all these people are civil servants. 0:58:10.520 --> 0:58:13.080 They have a commitment to society, to better society. And 0:58:13.160 --> 0:58:15.600 understanding that you're a part of a system that's corrupt 0:58:15.880 --> 0:58:20.520 doesn't exempt you participating in that corruption. You know, you 0:58:20.560 --> 0:58:23.640 have a moral obligation. The universe will get you eventually, 0:58:23.880 --> 0:58:27.960 you know. And so I think that when you take 0:58:28.000 --> 0:58:29.440 all of this stuff and you mix it together in 0:58:29.480 --> 0:58:32.720 the same pot, and you see that prisons are not working, 0:58:32.880 --> 0:58:35.040 it really, at least at the very least, should cause 0:58:35.080 --> 0:58:38.280 you to take a step back, pause and reflect on 0:58:38.360 --> 0:58:41.440 what exactly are we doing here. But we're out of 0:58:41.440 --> 0:58:44.240 time for this episode. So I want to thank you 0:58:44.680 --> 0:58:46.640 Gonzo for coming to hang out with me here on 0:58:46.680 --> 0:58:49.360 Civic Cipher today, and I want to invite all of 0:58:49.400 --> 0:58:51.600 the listeners of the show if you have any questions, 0:58:51.680 --> 0:58:53.720 any topics you want us to discuss, If you want 0:58:53.760 --> 0:58:55.800 to donate, we appreciate all the donations. The show is 0:58:55.800 --> 0:58:58.680 supported by you. Please head over to civiccipher dot com 0:58:58.960 --> 0:59:01.120 and follow all of our social media at civic cipher 0:59:01.160 --> 0:59:03.240 and we'll see you next week, all right, Peace,