Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Max, and this is no such thing
Speaker 1: the show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours
Speaker 1: by actually doing the research on today's episode. Why do
Speaker 1: divorce men act like that? There's no no such thing,
Speaker 1: no touch thing, touch thank.
Speaker 2: Touch, thank.
Speaker 3: Touch, thank you.
Speaker 1: All right, just a quick programming note. No, we did
Speaker 1: not fire Noah, not yet. He's simply on vacation. But
Speaker 1: you never know. Maybe if Max, you know, shows his
Speaker 1: war drop, might have to have a conversation.
Speaker 4: I were a kind of Noah esque sweater today, Yeah,
Speaker 4: the same height, like I could fill in, you know.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: We've got a special guest today, a guest who I'm
Speaker 1: surprised we have not had on it.
Speaker 5: It's kind of disappointing.
Speaker 1: Given the fact that you were not only at the
Speaker 1: beginning like ten years ago, really at the beginning for
Speaker 1: some of these original flavor arguments that inspired this show.
Speaker 1: And our special guest is Maxwell Tawny. Thanks for joining us.
Speaker 6: I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 4: I don't think I can totally live up to Noah,
Speaker 4: but I'll do my best.
Speaker 1: Max is a media reporter and editor for Semaphore. But Max,
Speaker 1: we're here today because of a pitch that you had
Speaker 1: for us. This is actually your idea of this episode,
Speaker 1: and so I wondered if you could just walk us
Speaker 1: through what your question was and how we can help.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: You know, as a part of my job thinking about
Speaker 4: and writing about and podcasting about the media business and industry,
Speaker 4: you know, I consume a lot of articles. I'm still
Speaker 4: one of the few people who I think reads Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 4: my brain isn't totally rotted yet. I can read something
Speaker 4: for about thirty seconds. And at the end of the
Speaker 4: year last year, I was reading an article in the
Speaker 4: Cut listing like the most divorced guys of twenty twenty five,
Speaker 4: which kind of an amusing, you know, old school kind
Speaker 4: of style, like twenty ten style blog posts.
Speaker 1: But it made me kind of think, like, what is
Speaker 1: clear most divorced, not like amount of times divorced, no,
Speaker 1: kind of the most divorced energy like, which you know,
Speaker 1: God got at this point that I was thinking of,
Speaker 1: which is why do we all kind of instantly recognize
Speaker 1: what that is? Like what makes a divorced guy divorced
Speaker 1: seem divorced? What's the type of behavior when people say like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's that guy is such a divorced guy, Like, what
Speaker 1: is it? We kind of know what falls into that category,
Speaker 1: but I guess I was curious about why that's immediately recognizable,
Speaker 1: and also like why there's no parallel for you know,
Speaker 1: in a straight relationship, you know, divorced characteristics for women.
Speaker 1: Why is it just and why do we have just
Speaker 1: such a vivid picture in our heads. So that's what
Speaker 1: I was hoping that you guys would figure out for me.
Speaker 1: But I'm here to help puzzle through it with you. Well,
Speaker 1: it's a great question, and I've been thinking about this
Speaker 1: a little bit, and you know, not to do a
Speaker 1: not all men, but you know there are men who
Speaker 1: are divorced who are not the divorced guy, if that
Speaker 1: makes sense, right, So we really want to define what
Speaker 1: being a divorced guy or having divorced guy energy is,
Speaker 1: or what the divorce guy stereotype is. So why don't
Speaker 1: we walk through some examples. Let's start with you, Max, Like,
Speaker 1: who's a guy that you think is like, this guy
Speaker 1: is extremely divorced, not just literally but also in the
Speaker 1: way he behaves.
Speaker 4: Well, the most famous one right now, I would say,
Speaker 4: is former Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who famously got
Speaker 4: divorced I think last year or the year before that,
Speaker 4: and is now dating Katy Perry in a very public way,
Speaker 4: right like kind of fangirling out at her shows in Canada.
Speaker 7: After sparking romance rumors with Katy Perry thanks to this
Speaker 7: outing captured by TMZ.
Speaker 4: The politician was on hand for the Pop Stars of
Speaker 4: Montreal concert on Wednesday.
Speaker 6: They're showing up at public events together.
Speaker 7: Former prem Minister Justin Trudeau spoke at the Summit today.
Speaker 7: His girlfriend, pop star Katy Perry was there on the
Speaker 7: front row.
Speaker 4: Initially I had come here thinking like, oh, we should
Speaker 4: talk about bezos who famously got married last year, also
Speaker 4: a majorly divorced guy. But Justin Trudeau, I think is
Speaker 4: like expressing textbook characteristics of what a divorced guy might do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he's just like out in public a lot more.
Speaker 1: He's dating someone now who's kind of left field for
Speaker 1: a politician. I'm trying to think of of like some
Speaker 1: another example, Devin, do you have one.
Speaker 8: I just thought of someone who's actually not divorced who
Speaker 8: has divorce guy energy, So that's helpful.
Speaker 5: Former in New York City Mayor Eric Adams has divorced
Speaker 5: guy energy. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 8: I was just like, wait a minute, because he's like,
Speaker 8: I don't think he's been in any like real long
Speaker 8: term relationship he has.
Speaker 4: He's like he has like a long term domestic partner,
Speaker 4: but he definitely has the divorced guy characteristics. Publicly talking
Speaker 4: about his ex in like kind of embarrassed of old excess.
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah, sorty from Far Rock, West.
Speaker 5: I had a shorty that lived out here.
Speaker 8: You know, you uhould come out, come out taking that
Speaker 8: long a train ride, you know, and the cold.
Speaker 5: You know, love is blind and you know.
Speaker 4: Talking in a big way about being out. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 4: party partying very publicly.
Speaker 5: Showing you how much fun they're.
Speaker 6: Having, showing you how much under having.
Speaker 1: That is a great point, And I think that's a good,
Speaker 1: uh a great example of a divorced guy stereotype. It's
Speaker 1: like he wants you to know how much fun he's having.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I am the mayor. This is a city of nightlife.
Speaker 5: I must test the product. I have to be out.
Speaker 1: But wait, who is the one that my reaction was?
Speaker 5: Kanye Kim.
Speaker 8: I just got actually fed in my feed, my TikTok
Speaker 8: feed yesterday.
Speaker 5: I forgot all about this.
Speaker 8: It was him and Drake did some like joint Larry
Speaker 8: Hoover benefit concert, which I don't know if they actually
Speaker 8: went to Hoover. But and then during Runaway, Kanye's singing
Speaker 8: about wanting Kim to run away back to him a freestyle.
Speaker 6: He's just doing right back to me.
Speaker 9: He's doing to me, and I'm like, this is the
Speaker 9: most divorced guy thing ever publicly being like, come back
Speaker 9: to me.
Speaker 5: I'm sorry. What might be?
Speaker 4: What about like the fact that he also likes started
Speaker 4: dating somebody who looked like he was getting.
Speaker 8: A couple of people that looked like him before he
Speaker 8: landed on his current wife.
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 2: How does Kim Kardashian feel about Kanye West dating a
Speaker 2: look alike recently? Sources say quote, it's almost have spite
Speaker 2: to make him jealous, but she couldn't care less.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you see someone date someone who looks like their
Speaker 1: acts and you're like, Okay, they've got a type. In
Speaker 1: this instance, it's like, Okay, now he's I'm making a
Speaker 1: statement here. He wants people to be talking about this.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: My example is as a fictional character, Mia has been
Speaker 1: watching Breaking Back.
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, and.
Speaker 1: There's a whole season arc of Walt Walter White after
Speaker 1: his divorce and how he kind of feels this intense
Speaker 1: desire to reinvent himself. He buys a Dodge Charger, he
Speaker 1: buys his son a Dodge Charger, He gets an apartment
Speaker 1: and just like buys it as.
Speaker 9: Is no, no, this one's fine, I'll take it now.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, this one is the model.
Speaker 7: So yeah, I like it, like everything about it.
Speaker 1: I'll take it as all kinds of shit that just
Speaker 1: it feels so left field for him. And I think
Speaker 1: the reason is because I guess you get a little
Speaker 1: bit more freedom to do things.
Speaker 8: Yeah, And I think part of the divorce guy energy
Speaker 8: is it's just like where are your priorities?
Speaker 5: Right?
Speaker 8: Like you know, they'll buy like a car or a motorcycle.
Speaker 8: It's like a little kid spending money.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god. Yeah, it feels like kind of
Speaker 1: a I guess like coping mechanism or it is in
Speaker 1: the in this TV show. At least he doesn't know
Speaker 1: how to deal with getting divorced and does all this
Speaker 1: crazy shit.
Speaker 6: No, but it is true to Devin's point.
Speaker 4: It's a little bit of like all the stuff that
Speaker 4: you kind of wanted to do when you were a
Speaker 4: teenager or maybe in your twenties that you had someone
Speaker 4: around a mature force in your life saying like, no,
Speaker 4: we're not gonna do like post shirtless picks. You don't
Speaker 4: need to be doing that, or like we're not you
Speaker 4: don't need to buy a motorcycle or go on like
Speaker 4: a motorcycle trip with your boys or something like that.
Speaker 1: Though that sounds sick to me. Yeah, so let's just
Speaker 1: distill a couple of characteristics from those examples. So like
Speaker 1: we've got someone who wants everyone to know that they're
Speaker 1: having fun. Yeah, We've got people who like try and
Speaker 1: reinvent themselves new wardrobe, new wardrobe car. Yeah, dating someone
Speaker 1: who you might not like, you know, someone who didn't
Speaker 1: think you might date before, like just trying trying new things.
Speaker 4: There's like they're in the public discourse about divorce. There's
Speaker 4: like kind of a tone of like dating someone really silly,
Speaker 4: like dating someone completely inappropriate for you in a way
Speaker 4: that is not just like kind of like what are
Speaker 4: you doing? But that is comedic to us, Like the
Speaker 4: idea of Justin Trudeau dating Katy Perry when she is
Speaker 4: like going into space, you know, like like the stud
Speaker 4: just the stupidest commonation of of possible scenarios that I
Speaker 4: think is like plays into it.
Speaker 6: It's their version of you know, normis my like like
Speaker 6: all of us.
Speaker 4: Although you guys are like Apple Top Podcast whatever, new
Speaker 4: People of the Year, maybe you guys don't qualify anymore,
Speaker 4: but like, you know, normis like like myself. You know,
Speaker 4: if if I were to go through a very serious breakup,
Speaker 4: it would certainly result in me being on a few
Speaker 4: dates with someone who probably is not gonna end up
Speaker 4: being the love of my life and might to the
Speaker 4: general public seem you know, kind of silly, ridiculous, a
Speaker 4: little bit of a head scrutch. But the celebrity version
Speaker 4: of that is like who do I know? Like, oh,
Speaker 4: former uh, you know, platinum pop star Katie Perry's like,
Speaker 4: that's the kind of people I interact with.
Speaker 6: I guess.
Speaker 1: Right, that's my next move. Well, that's a that's a
Speaker 1: good point, Max. It's a good transition because I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask the three of us, you know, in our
Speaker 1: previous breakups, just to really get to the to the
Speaker 1: heart of the this stereotype. Do you feel like you've
Speaker 1: ever behaved this way? I think like when you know,
Speaker 1: in previous breakups. I definitely can identify some of these
Speaker 1: behaviors from like the most famously divorced celebrities, things like
Speaker 1: partying way more, staying out way too late, maybe the
Speaker 1: apartment starts to get a little messier. I'm living in
Speaker 1: my own filth a little bit. As shortly after a breakup,
Speaker 1: you know, wanting to appear this is the big one.
Speaker 1: Wanting to appear as if nothing as if it's not
Speaker 1: a huge deal. I remember after a previous breakup. It
Speaker 1: was like around the time of the World Cup in
Speaker 1: like twenty eighteen or something, and I was just posting
Speaker 1: as if nothing fucking happened. I'm looking at every day
Speaker 1: I'm at a bar watching a soccer game. And I
Speaker 1: remember like a few months after that, being like, okay,
Speaker 1: so I was definitely attempting something, going through something, you know, subconsciously.
Speaker 1: But what about you ever try.
Speaker 5: To reinvent yourself?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 8: Yeah, I feel like I got like really into like
Speaker 8: working out post break.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, a lot more time.
Speaker 5: I'm going to really hit the gym.
Speaker 1: There, that's a good.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So that's yeah. I don't think I've you know, definitely
Speaker 1: maybe some buying, some random new clothes.
Speaker 6: Yah, for the blow up is a classic. Do you
Speaker 6: either have the glow up or the glow down?
Speaker 8: Right, Like, like, okay, we haven't talked was keeping it
Speaker 8: together for you exactly.
Speaker 4: Know exactly like we haven't we we haven't talked about
Speaker 4: the sad stereotypes as well, you know, such as smoking,
Speaker 4: you know, kind of appearing disheveled, drinking a lot more.
Speaker 6: Yeah, drinking, Yeah, drinking.
Speaker 4: Partying in a bad way, you know, not a very
Speaker 4: healthy way of partying, either staying up late at the
Speaker 4: clubs or at home not doing anything just up.
Speaker 1: Until four I am watching gaming or being on Twitter
Speaker 1: or whatever. Movies.
Speaker 4: But but but to your point, though, I do think
Speaker 4: like the physical uh reinventing yourself in a physical way.
Speaker 4: The classic I mean this is like after after a
Speaker 4: serious breakup that I went through, is when I decided
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, I'm gonna get into running, which
Speaker 4: is like one of it's gotta be like the number
Speaker 4: one thing that people do after going through a serious breakup,
Speaker 4: working out in some way, but specifically running. Yes, you
Speaker 4: don't start down that path if you're just a normal,
Speaker 4: well adjusted person.
Speaker 1: You got to be trying to get away something, but
Speaker 1: then I mean it became something that's a big part
Speaker 1: of your life now running, which is like if you've
Speaker 1: run marathons and you're good at it. Yeah, sometimes some
Speaker 1: of these things can be positive.
Speaker 4: I actually think like a lot of this stuff is
Speaker 4: is generally positive. Like I actually that's the thing about
Speaker 4: some of the stereotypes that I think are kind of silly.
Speaker 6: It's like it's.
Speaker 4: Actually kind of nice to you know, find rediscover kind
Speaker 4: of who you are by putting yourself out there and
Speaker 4: doing some stupid shit and like stuff that otherwise you
Speaker 4: might like at yourself.
Speaker 8: For I agree with Max that like some amount of
Speaker 8: that I think is healthy. Like, you know, people need
Speaker 8: to find out who they are outside of their partner.
Speaker 8: And I think sometimes you're in a relationship for a while,
Speaker 8: you know, you start to kind of become one another.
Speaker 8: But I think there's like a healthy window for that.
Speaker 8: And I think when the vorce dad energy goes wrong
Speaker 8: is when that person gets stuck in that yeah, and
Speaker 8: it just becomes all right, you got divorce four or
Speaker 8: five years ago and you're still acting this way. It's like, Okay,
Speaker 8: you're a forty five fifty year old man and a
Speaker 8: certain point, maybe you need.
Speaker 5: To grow up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's two obvious things we can do
Speaker 1: to figure out like what's going on in the brain
Speaker 1: of the divorce guy. One of them is talk to
Speaker 1: a psychologist, which luckily for you too, I've already done,
Speaker 1: and so you'll be hearing from them after the break
Speaker 1: All right, I'm Manny, I'm Max Devin, and we're about
Speaker 1: to hear from a psychologist to see if we can
Speaker 1: figure out what's going on, you know, behind the set
Speaker 1: of eyes of the divorced man.
Speaker 7: My name is MIKEA. Steinbwam, and I'm a clinical and
Speaker 7: educational psychologist.
Speaker 1: So the first question I had for Micah is just
Speaker 1: like basic signs, like what is actually happening to our
Speaker 1: brains after a breakup.
Speaker 7: Often people are very surprised at the intensity of what
Speaker 7: a breakup or divorce can feel like. They're overwhelmed by
Speaker 7: how bad they feel. So this is actually something that
Speaker 7: is surprising to people. The reason, first of all, it
Speaker 7: feels so bad is because we're a social species, and
Speaker 7: way way back in the lives of our ancestors, if
Speaker 7: we were shunned from the group, if somebody rejected us
Speaker 7: socially that often meant death. So our biology it didn't
Speaker 7: adapt as quickly to our modern life as we might.
Speaker 7: So our body is pretty much the same as the
Speaker 7: body of the neanderthals. So when we get rejected socially,
Speaker 7: our bodies think, okay, tomorrow, I'll be eaten by the
Speaker 7: tiger or whatever animal was around. So to our biology,
Speaker 7: a divorce or breakup can feel something like this is
Speaker 7: life threatening, like I'm in a life threatening situation right now,
Speaker 7: Like I need to repair this, this needs to be fixed,
Speaker 7: like I'm in danger. That's what the biology feels like.
Speaker 7: And like on the chemical level, what this looks like
Speaker 7: is that we've got more cortisol. Those are our stress hormones,
Speaker 7: so that's often why people can like have digestive issues
Speaker 7: or trouble sleeping, or just feel like constantly agitated and
Speaker 7: unable to calm down. And we've also got less of oxytocin.
Speaker 7: It's also called the cuddle hormone. This is released when
Speaker 7: we snuggle and it makes us feel warm and safe
Speaker 7: and relaxed. So if you've got more stress hormones less
Speaker 7: of oxytocin, that already kind of explains the stress situation
Speaker 7: of the biology. And then there's also a really interesting
Speaker 7: study that did brain imaging and what they found is
Speaker 7: that after a breakup board divorce, there's a similar activation
Speaker 7: in brain patterns to people going through substance addiction withdrawal.
Speaker 7: So this is like the dopamine reward system that's activated,
Speaker 7: and that is like it's a chasing system. So this
Speaker 7: system makes us want to chase whatever we lost, the
Speaker 7: drug or the person, and that's probably where the cravings
Speaker 7: come in and the obsessive thinking, the ruminating, the rescue
Speaker 7: mission of I have to get this person back, like
Speaker 7: what happened? Where did they go?
Speaker 1: So I thought the most interesting piece of information in
Speaker 1: that was that we are like, biologically speaking, we were
Speaker 1: kind of behaving as if we're about to die, like
Speaker 1: we are outcasts from like some kind of safety net
Speaker 1: that we had, and our response is actually like thousands
Speaker 1: and thousands of years old.
Speaker 8: The comparison it to it like withdrawal from drugs, right,
Speaker 8: because I think that speaks to like the stakes feel
Speaker 8: so high in the moment where you're like you can't
Speaker 8: imagine what your life will be like a month, two months,
Speaker 8: three months, Like each minute feels like excruciating at the time,
Speaker 8: and then when you look back on it, you're like,
Speaker 8: why was I feel like really?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, much like you know, a real withdrawal from
Speaker 1: like some substance. You know, you do start to do
Speaker 1: things you wouldn't normally do to try and get the
Speaker 1: high again. So that doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I wanted to get to the specific question about, like,
Speaker 1: you know, why is it the case that men seem
Speaker 1: to feel the need to want to reinvent themselves after
Speaker 1: a breakup? So I asked Michael what could be behind
Speaker 1: that urge?
Speaker 7: Often the initial of a divorce or breakup is the woman,
Speaker 7: so I think that's where one of the main differences
Speaker 7: comes from. It makes a huge difference whether or not
Speaker 7: you choose to go down this path or if it's
Speaker 7: happening to you, So that means it's more intense. It
Speaker 7: also happens more suddenly for the man because if so,
Speaker 7: the woman is probably didn't decide this on a whim,
Speaker 7: so they've been preparing for that, maybe for years emotionally mentally.
Speaker 7: But for the party that didn't choose the breakup is
Speaker 7: like from one day to the next, their whole life
Speaker 7: is shattered. So it's this very big sudden disruption of
Speaker 7: their life, of their identity, of their roles, of their
Speaker 7: daily structure. And I think that's where the search for
Speaker 7: identity comes from. It's like, who am I now now
Speaker 7: that I'm a divorced guy, and now that I see
Speaker 7: my kids maybe only every other week, and now that
Speaker 7: many of my friends won't talk to me anymore because
Speaker 7: they feel like they have to decide. People internalize the
Speaker 7: rejection after and there's three ways of dealing with that
Speaker 7: in a not so functional way. So let's say something's
Speaker 7: not working for them and their emotional processing. It's counter attack, avoidance,
Speaker 7: or surrender.
Speaker 1: So just to review, there are kind of three reactions
Speaker 1: you could have to internalizing a rejection. So let's say,
Speaker 1: for example, in this case, you know the men and
Speaker 1: these divorces were not the part of the couple that
Speaker 1: decided to get divorced. You could surrender and feel dejected.
Speaker 1: You could experience avoidance, which means you're just not going
Speaker 1: to talk to people again. And then there's the counter attack.
Speaker 1: And I think that's really what we're talking about when
Speaker 1: it comes to the energy the aura of these divorced men.
Speaker 1: It's a counter attack in the sense that like something
Speaker 1: bad happened to me and I have to deal with
Speaker 1: it very publicly and show that it didn't happen to me,
Speaker 1: or like that you're maybe taking some kind of control
Speaker 1: back from the thing that you didn't have any control over.
Speaker 1: Does that sound right to you, guys?
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I think a lot of what we're talking
Speaker 4: about is all kind of like image management, right, Like
Speaker 4: the kind of internal stuff that you hear from like
Speaker 4: your friends who or have experienced, you know, from your
Speaker 4: friends who've gone through a breakup, or yourself you've gone
Speaker 4: through a breakup or divorce or whatever. It's oftentimes much
Speaker 4: more of the what you would expect, the real sadness, loneliness,
Speaker 4: and like kind of vulnerability, Whereas what we see, you know,
Speaker 4: on our feeds when somebody breaks up is always the
Speaker 4: counter attack that the kind of messaging. Right now, As
Speaker 4: a media reporter, I'm sure you've run into this all
Speaker 4: the time where some news story came out something that
Speaker 4: was like an exposit or whatever, and you needed to
Speaker 4: like get.
Speaker 1: A comment or something like that. Is that behavior kind
Speaker 1: of the same, where like they need to make sure
Speaker 1: actually that this thing that you heard about them is
Speaker 1: not true or that you know, it's not a big
Speaker 1: deal to them. Do you run into this that work.
Speaker 6: It's spit, It's definitely yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean, like there's the entire business of you know,
Speaker 4: spinning all of these things right. And part of the
Speaker 4: things that we all, I think are laughing at to
Speaker 4: a certain degree is is the spin. You know, whether
Speaker 4: that is just posting yourself you know, shredded selfies, you know,
Speaker 4: or dating somebody significantly younger or something like that. That's
Speaker 4: it's both those things are both for the soul but
Speaker 4: also obviously have to do with in some regards with
Speaker 4: image Max.
Speaker 1: Earlier, you had a question about the difference between men
Speaker 1: and women at post breakup, and so I asked Micah
Speaker 1: about this.
Speaker 7: I think a lot of the things that people sometimes
Speaker 7: think about may not be what's actually at play, Like
Speaker 7: there could be deeper things like like there's differences in
Speaker 7: attachment styles. So there's four different attachment styles. This is
Speaker 7: the way we show up in relationships, and there's one
Speaker 7: that's like the healthy one, it's called secure attachment. That's
Speaker 7: around fifty percent of people. And then we have the
Speaker 7: other fifty percent of people have an insecure attachment style
Speaker 7: and there's three of them. There's five percent of people
Speaker 7: who have what's called disorganized attachment. That's a very unpredictable
Speaker 7: pattern of being in relationships. It's like the typical on
Speaker 7: off relationship. And then the rest, which is about like
Speaker 7: twenty two percent each is avoidant and anxious attachment. And
Speaker 7: men are more likely to have avoidant attachment. Women are
Speaker 7: lean more towards the anxious attachment side. And I think
Speaker 7: often when we see how men and women deal with
Speaker 7: breakups differently, we think it's because of gender. Maybe gender
Speaker 7: also plays a role in what attachments to somebody has,
Speaker 7: but it's more the attachment style than necessarily gender. I
Speaker 7: would say that really influences what it feels like, what
Speaker 7: it's like. So and an avoidant attachment means bottling up emotions,
Speaker 7: not really being in touch with your emotions, but still
Speaker 7: being influenced by them and trying to cope with emotions.
Speaker 7: I mean the insecure attachment styles have unhealthy coping mechanisms.
Speaker 7: And for avoidant attachment, that's like substance abuse or gaming
Speaker 7: or work addiction, kind of like any anything that takes
Speaker 7: your mind off of your problem. That's like the the
Speaker 7: person who doesn't really know what to do with these
Speaker 7: emotions and maybe also had some like mental health struggles
Speaker 7: or not such great resilience even before the divorce. So
Speaker 7: this divorce is just the tip of the iceberg, and
Speaker 7: then it all kind of comes crashing down and the
Speaker 7: things that they never learned before are now really causing great,
Speaker 7: great havoc.
Speaker 1: So it seems like when it comes to the gender breakdown,
Speaker 1: it has a lot to do with attachment styles, which
Speaker 1: is like something I see on social media a lot.
Speaker 1: I haven't really like tried to figure out what they mean.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Ye healthy, Yeah, I think I've probably
Speaker 1: got the healthiest attachment. If I had to grade myself.
Speaker 5: The best one on there, I got that one. The
Speaker 5: good one is.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I guess we didn't necessarily get to why
Speaker 1: why we don't talk about women having any kind of
Speaker 1: divorce energy. And I think what our psychologists here is
Speaker 1: saying is that they're less likely to have the different
Speaker 1: attachment styles or kind of counterattacks, uh that would lead
Speaker 1: to that in the first place.
Speaker 8: I think too, you know what she was saying earlier
Speaker 8: in regards to like, in a lot of these situations,
Speaker 8: the woman is initiating the divorce.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and as a child, you know, I think I'm
Speaker 8: the only child of divorce here, right, My parents are
Speaker 8: not yor so as someone who has seen this play out,
Speaker 8: there is a thing of like, yeah, and you think
Speaker 8: about it a breakups too. Right, There's one person who's like,
Speaker 8: I need to break up with this person. I need
Speaker 8: to find the right moment to do that. So they're
Speaker 8: mentally planning for that moment in their heads.
Speaker 1: That could be years.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it could be a long period of time. So
Speaker 8: when it actually happens, it's not like it's like, oh
Speaker 8: my god, what is happening Versus the guy in ali
Speaker 8: of situations who's oblivious to just how he was like,
Speaker 8: whoa wait, do you have an issue in our relationship?
Speaker 8: So to them, it's like a huge shock. Yeah, And
Speaker 8: if it's a huge shock to them and they having
Speaker 8: unhealthy attachment style, it's just like it's just like the
Speaker 8: snowball effects.
Speaker 1: Well, how old were you when your parents got divorced.
Speaker 5: I was in fifth grade.
Speaker 1: So maybe not old enough to kind of like understand
Speaker 1: if your dad was doing the divorce kind of Oh.
Speaker 8: He definitely had like he started, he definitely had divorced
Speaker 8: guy energy, Like he like started smoking cigars, which he
Speaker 8: never did beforehand.
Speaker 1: That's a classic one.
Speaker 8: And it was like some stuff was like the classic
Speaker 8: case of like my mom was the cleaner one of
Speaker 8: the two, so like when I would go visit him,
Speaker 8: his house would be like a mess and he just
Speaker 8: like less structure, Like it wouldn't be like like why
Speaker 8: are we eating at this time? You know, Like it
Speaker 8: was classic like divorce dad energy.
Speaker 1: For sing it's and it's funny. It was so obvious
Speaker 1: that you were in fifth Oh yeah, I was.
Speaker 5: Like, Okay, there's this. My mom had all the structure here.
Speaker 1: My last question that I asked the psychologist was, you know,
Speaker 1: if there's any divorced guys listening to this podcast right
Speaker 1: now and you don't want to appear, you know, this way,
Speaker 1: or you don't want to get like lean into any
Speaker 1: of the more unhealthy ways of dealing with a divorce,
Speaker 1: you know, what should they be doing? How should they
Speaker 1: deal with their breakup?
Speaker 7: It helps to acknowledge that it's painful, because often what
Speaker 7: can happen is people will be like, what's wrong with
Speaker 7: me that I'm suffering this?
Speaker 1: Much?
Speaker 7: Like I should be over this. This shouldn't affect me
Speaker 7: as much. I'm such a loser for being this week,
Speaker 7: And to not have those kind of thoughts because you're
Speaker 7: already in pain, why make it worse with these judgments,
Speaker 7: and just really accept this is painful. It is for
Speaker 7: ninety nine percent of people going through this, and you're
Speaker 7: not alone in this, and it's completely acceptable to struggle
Speaker 7: and not be okay. And then to make sure, because
Speaker 7: it's such a loss of control, to make sure that
Speaker 7: you really don't kind of chuck all of control out
Speaker 7: of the window, but try to stay on top of
Speaker 7: everything that you can stay on top of. So that
Speaker 7: means try to keep like a regular routine throughout the day,
Speaker 7: like try to sleep at the roughly the same time
Speaker 7: and get enough sleep, have regular meals, exercise, find a
Speaker 7: way also to have space for your emotions. Maybe that's journaling, meditation,
Speaker 7: thinking about it when you're on walks. Socializing is important,
Speaker 7: meet up with friends, join communities, and even if you
Speaker 7: don't feel like doing any of those things or like
Speaker 7: pursuing hobbies. I mean, often people are like, I don't
Speaker 7: want to be a Debbie downer at the party, so
Speaker 7: I'm just not gonna go. But that's not a healthy
Speaker 7: thing to do, and I think you can burden your
Speaker 7: friendships a bit like that and just not be the
Speaker 7: life of the party and just still come and sit
Speaker 7: in the corner and at least be part of it.
Speaker 7: Then just isolating at home.
Speaker 1: Okay, after the break, we're going to talk to a
Speaker 1: sociologist and find out why divorced women actually spend less
Speaker 1: time on housework than they did before the divorce. All right,
Speaker 1: we're back and we're here with Jessica Calarco, Professor of
Speaker 1: sociology at the University of Wisconsin. Jess thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1: Could you start by just telling us what you do
Speaker 1: for a living exactly?
Speaker 3: Sure. I'm a sociologist and also an author. I've written
Speaker 3: a couple books on inequalities in family life and education,
Speaker 3: and the most recent one is probably the one that's
Speaker 3: most relevant to our conversation today, which is Holding It Together,
Speaker 3: How women became America's safety net.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm curious about this kind of argument in thesis.
Speaker 1: Could you tell us a little bit about it briefly?
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 3: Basically, in other countries, governments use tax dollars to fund
Speaker 3: social programs that help take care of people and keep
Speaker 3: them safe from harm. I'm talking about, you know, programs
Speaker 3: like guaranteed healthcare, universal childcare and elder care, robust unemployment benefits,
Speaker 3: paid sickly, things along those lines. In the US, we
Speaker 3: instead tend to tell people it's your responsibility to take
Speaker 3: care of yourself and keep yourself safe. You know, that's
Speaker 3: not the government's job. The problem, though, is that there
Speaker 3: are plenty of people in our society who can't take
Speaker 3: care of themselves or keep themselves safe in those ways.
Speaker 3: I mean most easily that you could point to the children,
Speaker 3: the sick, the elderly, and so in those cases someone
Speaker 3: else needs to step in to take care of them.
Speaker 3: And you know, certainly men could share equally in that
Speaker 3: responsibility with women, but most men in the US end
Speaker 3: up leveraging their privilege and their power in society to
Speaker 3: push that work onto women instead, and going further, particularly
Speaker 3: in married type relationships, a lot of men also leverage
Speaker 3: that same privilege and power to get women to take
Speaker 3: care of their needs, like with cooking and cleaning and
Speaker 3: emotional support, on top of the work that women are
Speaker 3: already doing for themselves and for those who are too
Speaker 3: young or too old or too sick to take care
Speaker 3: of themselves.
Speaker 4: How do you see that people's lives and relationships. Let's
Speaker 4: talk about like a place that has a strong safety net,
Speaker 4: like Norway or something like that, you know, Scandinavian country.
Speaker 4: I mean we're talking about, you know, heteronormative relationship. Here.
Speaker 4: Do you see a difference between the actual lives of
Speaker 4: in particular women in those countries and women in the
Speaker 4: US because of this lack of this safety net.
Speaker 3: Absolutely so. Essentially what you see is that the gender
Speaker 3: inequalities in things like time on housework, time on childcare.
Speaker 3: You see smaller gaps between men and women in those
Speaker 3: other countries that have invested more in these kinds of
Speaker 3: supports than we see in the US. And at the
Speaker 3: same time, it's not because men are necessarily doing more
Speaker 3: than men here. You actually see both men and women
Speaker 3: in those other countries spending less time on things like
Speaker 3: housework and childcare than you see in the US. And
Speaker 3: it's because there's less of that labor to go around.
Speaker 3: You know, there's more of that labor that we can
Speaker 3: turn to the state for support with, and so we
Speaker 3: don't need to take on as much of that ourselves.
Speaker 3: Which means that you both see less inequality and more
Speaker 3: things like leisure time for everyone, more time for sleep,
Speaker 3: more time for fun because you can offload some of
Speaker 3: that responsibility to the state to kind of other paid
Speaker 3: caregivers that are better compensated than paid caregivers in the US.
Speaker 1: In this episode, we're kind of endeavoring to get to
Speaker 1: the bottom of like the divorced guy stereotype. I'm curious
Speaker 1: about how divorce specifically, you know, plays a role in
Speaker 1: the dynamic you're talking about with these safety nets.
Speaker 3: I've heard of this stereotype that I think the answer
Speaker 3: here is maybe a little bit complicated because these these
Speaker 3: trends kind of work in complex ways. So you see,
Speaker 3: inequalities in housework and childcare are one of the primary
Speaker 3: reasons why couples in the US tend to get divorced
Speaker 3: in the first place. That the more unequal couples are,
Speaker 3: that puts a strain on relationships and can actually, particularly
Speaker 3: if women are financially in a position to be able
Speaker 3: to leave a relationship like that where things are very unequal,
Speaker 3: it's highly likely that they'll do so. And actually after
Speaker 3: divorce things tend to get a little better for women,
Speaker 3: at least on the housework front. Basically, divorced women spend
Speaker 3: less time on housework than married women do because husbands
Speaker 3: are actually creating a lot of housework for women, and
Speaker 3: so you know, after they get divorced, women don't have
Speaker 3: to spend as much time taking care of men, and
Speaker 3: so they're actually no seriously and this is part of
Speaker 3: why women are happier after divorce than men, is because
Speaker 3: they don't have that one extra person that they're spending
Speaker 3: a lot of time taking care of, and so there
Speaker 3: is sort of this complex relationship here. At the same time,
Speaker 3: you know, there are complexities here in the sense that
Speaker 3: after divorce, women do tend to take on more of
Speaker 3: the caregiving the child care responsibilities in households with kids,
Speaker 3: and so it does save some time on the houseworkfront,
Speaker 3: but it can create some more challenge is on the
Speaker 3: care workfront at the same time.
Speaker 1: What an incredible indictment. So like, after a divorce, you're
Speaker 1: mentioning that women do take on more responsibility in terms
Speaker 1: of not necessarily housework, but childcare. Do you think that
Speaker 1: plays a role into this stereotype we're talking about, where
Speaker 1: you know, could it be the case that women would
Speaker 1: be leaning into this stereotype if they had the time
Speaker 1: to do it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is another place where the data are
Speaker 3: a little bit complicated in the sense that we actually
Speaker 3: know that even before they get divorced, if couples are
Speaker 3: still married, if we're talking about you know, men women
Speaker 3: types of couples, married men actually get a lot more
Speaker 3: leisure time already than married women do. On average, it's
Speaker 3: about two hours more per week that men are spending
Speaker 3: on leisure time that when they're married and when both
Speaker 3: partners are working full time. And those gaps actually get
Speaker 3: even bigger when you put kids into the equation, So
Speaker 3: it's almost three hours a week difference between married moms
Speaker 3: with young kids and married dads with young kids in
Speaker 3: terms of how much time they're spending on leisure time
Speaker 3: for themselves. And so, you know, basically, even though we
Speaker 3: often think of divorced dads as the ones who are
Speaker 3: getting all this time, married men are actually already getting
Speaker 3: this bonus at the same time when it comes to
Speaker 3: things like hobbies. And this is another place where things
Speaker 3: get complicated, because divorced moms are actually better off leisure
Speaker 3: time wise than married moms that married moms are the
Speaker 3: ones who are in the worst place when it comes
Speaker 3: to things like leisure time, in part because, especially if
Speaker 3: they have shared custody arrangements after divorce, moms might have
Speaker 3: a couple days off a week or every other week
Speaker 3: where they're not with the kids, and so they can
Speaker 3: invest more in hobbies. They don't get as much time
Speaker 3: as divorced dads do, but they do get slightly more
Speaker 3: time than moms, and so it is kind of this
Speaker 3: more complex relationship. The other complicating factor for divorced moms, though,
Speaker 3: is that compared to dads and because of gender pay gaps,
Speaker 3: they tend to have much lower incomes, and especially for
Speaker 3: moms who've say, taken some time out of the workforce
Speaker 3: to care for their kids while they were young, or
Speaker 3: taken a step back career wise, and so even if
Speaker 3: they have a little bit more time to invest in
Speaker 3: leisure time activities, they have less resources compare to dad,
Speaker 3: and so they end up doing things that are more
Speaker 3: stay at home types of activities, reading more books or
Speaker 3: watching more TV, as opposed to say, going out and
Speaker 3: joining clubs or doing other things that you know, cost money.
Speaker 3: When it comes to their.
Speaker 1: Leisure yeah by buying a motorcycle.
Speaker 4: For example, not so likely here, So, Jess, mostly we've
Speaker 4: been talking about, you know, heteronormative relationships, but obviously you know,
Speaker 4: there are a lot of queer relationships where I would
Speaker 4: imagine some of these expectations are inverted, or some of
Speaker 4: the norms and habits might be a little bit different.
Speaker 4: Can you talk a little bit about how queer relationships
Speaker 4: might be a little bit different than some of the
Speaker 4: straight relationships we've been talking about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and part because same sex marriage is legally more
Speaker 3: new than kind of more heterosexual marriages, we don't have
Speaker 3: as much data on what happens post divorce, for example,
Speaker 3: with these couples. But what we do know from these
Speaker 3: couples more generally is that queer couples tend to have
Speaker 3: more egalitarian divisions of labor when it comes to things
Speaker 3: like housework and wildcare, in part because they don't bring
Speaker 3: with them the same gender baggage you know that comes
Speaker 3: into men women types of relationships when it comes to
Speaker 3: pressure to be the breadwinner versus the homemaker, and so
Speaker 3: they can push those stereotypes in ways that allow them
Speaker 3: to find arrangements that work better for them as individuals.
Speaker 3: At the same time, that doesn't mean that things are
Speaker 3: always perfectly equal. Some of the same sex couples that
Speaker 3: I've interviewed in my own research, for example, talk about
Speaker 3: the stresses that they feel, especially once kids are added,
Speaker 3: that you know, if one if they can't find childcare.
Speaker 3: For example, I talked to one couple with two moms
Speaker 3: who they really wanted to split everything equally, and yet
Speaker 3: they struggled to find child care. The first spot they
Speaker 3: could find was a part time spot when their daughter
Speaker 3: was nine months old, and they only had a couple
Speaker 3: of weeks of paid family leave, and so it was this,
Speaker 3: you know, how do we make things work in the meantime,
Speaker 3: And one of the moms ended up, you know, first
Speaker 3: dropping back to part time work and then dropping out
Speaker 3: of the workforce entirely to care for her daughter because
Speaker 3: that was the only way they could make it work.
Speaker 3: And so I think it's important to note that these
Speaker 3: these kinds of structural conditions that that make it harder
Speaker 3: for families. This lack of childcare, for example, or a
Speaker 3: lack of paid family leave is also affecting same sex couples,
Speaker 3: but it's at the same time they're often more creative
Speaker 3: than different gender couples when it comes to finding ways
Speaker 3: to make that work in more equal ways.
Speaker 1: I spoke to a psychologist about this kind of stereotype
Speaker 1: with the divorced guys. I'm curious, from a sociological perspective,
Speaker 1: what do you think is driving this stereotype. Are there
Speaker 1: sociological factors at play here that don't have to do
Speaker 1: with what's happening in the brain, for.
Speaker 3: Example, That's a good question. I mean, I think this
Speaker 3: is one of those places where the stereotype is often
Speaker 3: what gets portrayed, you know, in terms of media and
Speaker 3: particularly now social media as well. And so we can
Speaker 3: certainly imagine that if you know, mom's post divorce are
Speaker 3: mostly staying home and reading books or watching movies, or
Speaker 3: you know, maybe getting together with their friends every once
Speaker 3: in a while, whereas dads are going out and buying
Speaker 3: motorcycles or you know, taking trips, that those things are
Speaker 3: more instagrammable, you know, it's the kind of thing that
Speaker 3: they're going to put out there more maybe to show
Speaker 3: that they're having fun. So there could be some image
Speaker 3: projection going along with this, particularly if that's reinforced by
Speaker 3: the way that divorced ads tend to be portrayed in
Speaker 3: the media, So even if things are a little bit
Speaker 3: more complicated in real life, the way that media and
Speaker 3: social media tend to amplify things might help to reinforce
Speaker 3: these stereotypes, even if even if the reality is more complex.
Speaker 4: You're saying, the shirtless pictures at the gym are projection.
Speaker 1: That's interesting.
Speaker 6: I mean, it seems likely.
Speaker 4: I'm curious, though, like, do you have a theory about
Speaker 4: why there is not a divorced woman stereotype? And is
Speaker 4: that like a I don't know, is that a bad
Speaker 4: Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Speaker 6: I guess that's a good question.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there are stereotypes of divorced women,
Speaker 3: but they're often not very positive ones. They're often seen
Speaker 3: as sort of bitter and angry. They're often portrayed as
Speaker 3: despite the fact that they are on average happier, despite
Speaker 3: with the data show. And I think that is a
Speaker 3: way that the sort of stereotypes that do ex of
Speaker 3: divorced women, I would argue are used to punish divorced women,
Speaker 3: are used to say that, you know, you should be married.
Speaker 3: We live in a culture that still very much valorizes
Speaker 3: marriage and parenthood. You know, for all people, We've had
Speaker 3: decades of policy money dumped into marriage promotion programs, for example.
Speaker 3: And so I think these kinds of stereotypes when we
Speaker 3: do see divorced women portrayed in media, the sort of angry, grumpy,
Speaker 3: wine drinking mom who's sitting at home all the time,
Speaker 3: exactly exactly, this sort of greedy stereotypes here too, really
Speaker 3: portray this in ways that are designed, I would argue,
Speaker 3: to discourage women from divorcing, even when they're in these
Speaker 3: kinds of unequal relationships that they might be inclined to
Speaker 3: want to leave.
Speaker 8: I think back to that Jade Vance got in trouble
Speaker 8: for that clip of telling women basically saying that you
Speaker 8: should stay together for the kids.
Speaker 10: And this is one of the great tricks that I
Speaker 10: think the sexual Revolution pulled on the American populace, which
Speaker 10: is this idea that like, well, okay, these marriages were
Speaker 10: fundamentally you know, they were maybe even violent, but certainly
Speaker 10: they were unhappy, and so getting rid of them and
Speaker 10: making it easier for people to shift spouses like they
Speaker 10: change their underwear, that's going to make people happier in
Speaker 10: the long term.
Speaker 6: And maybe it worked out for the moms and dads.
Speaker 10: Though I'm skeptical, but it really didn't work out for
Speaker 10: the kids of those marriages.
Speaker 8: In media, and I think in real life people have this, well,
Speaker 8: couldn't you just like stick it out? Sort of like
Speaker 8: mentality to women a lot of times like how bad
Speaker 8: could have possibly have been?
Speaker 3: And certainly the idea as you were suggesting this, this
Speaker 3: perception that it's better for the kids if parents stay together,
Speaker 3: and really that's not with the data show, particularly if
Speaker 3: we're talking about high conflict marriages, if we're talking about
Speaker 3: marriages that have a risk of physical abuse or emotional
Speaker 3: abuse or financial abuse, that these kinds of situations, it
Speaker 3: is much better for kids if their parents separate and
Speaker 3: are not in that situation together. You know, it may
Speaker 3: be hard in the short term, but in the long
Speaker 3: term that the kids are are highly resilient and are
Speaker 3: able to navigate through those kinds of separations and divorces
Speaker 3: and it can ultimately lead to better out comes in
Speaker 3: the end.
Speaker 1: By the time this episode comes out, I will be
Speaker 1: in a relationship that has a child in it and congratulations,
Speaker 1: thank you. Kind of a weird way to announce that,
Speaker 1: but I first at first, At first I was going
Speaker 1: to say that I'm about to have a kid, but
Speaker 1: by the time this comes out, I will have a kid. Anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm curious, you know, what are some of the factors
Speaker 1: I could be thinking about more that I could be
Speaker 1: more aware of to make sure are to at least,
Speaker 1: you know, get a little bit better in stopping some
Speaker 1: of the disparities that we've been talking about, especially like
Speaker 1: at home, like in the home.
Speaker 3: Ah, this is a great question that I wish every
Speaker 3: new dad was asking this is this is a great question.
Speaker 3: So I think, you know, there's one of the things
Speaker 3: that you can do is pay attention to the cognitive
Speaker 3: labor This is one of the easiest things to overlook
Speaker 3: that it's easy to see the housework, it's easy to
Speaker 3: see the childcare. The parts that are easier to miss
Speaker 3: are the worry work that goes into raising children and
Speaker 3: men a household. Who is thinking about when is the
Speaker 3: next doctor visit coming up? Do we have it on
Speaker 3: the schedule? You know, do we have the right medications?
Speaker 3: You know, when is my kid following all of the
Speaker 3: developmental milestones? Are there things that we need to be
Speaker 3: watching out for, you know, the kind of worry work
Speaker 3: that often falls to women, and we think of it as,
Speaker 3: you know, well, that's just women being you know, more anxious,
Speaker 3: women being the worriers. But it stems from the fact
Speaker 3: that women know that they're going to be the crisis
Speaker 3: management team. They're going to be the ones who have
Speaker 3: to fix it if stuff goes wrong, and so if
Speaker 3: their kid gets sick, they're going to have to be
Speaker 3: the one to take them to the doctor more, they're
Speaker 3: going to have to be the one to do more
Speaker 3: of the care work. And so if men can take
Speaker 3: on more of that worry work or more of that
Speaker 3: cognitive labor of figuring out what needs to happen, monitoring
Speaker 3: for potential problems, figuring out potential solutions, you know, contributing
Speaker 3: to the logistical you know, planning and carrying out of
Speaker 3: tasks and not just waiting for the list to show up.
Speaker 3: You know, that's a great way to do this. And
Speaker 3: sometimes you can do that by offering to take over domains,
Speaker 3: you know, saying I'll handle everything related to you know,
Speaker 3: health care, or I'll handle everything related to figuring out childcare.
Speaker 3: Some couples it works really well that way. Other couples
Speaker 3: like to have a hand in everything together. There's not
Speaker 3: one right way or wrong way to do it, but
Speaker 3: making sure that it's not just about waiting for a
Speaker 3: list and being ready to kind of step in and
Speaker 3: help create the list on the front end too. And
Speaker 3: I think the other piece is pushing back against stereotypes.
Speaker 3: It's very easy for men to face criticisms if they're
Speaker 3: taking time off at work, if they're you know, leaving
Speaker 3: early to go to a doctor's appointment, for example, and
Speaker 3: being willing to say, hey, no, I'm a new dad,
Speaker 3: I should be there, this is my role. We know
Speaker 3: from research that when men who are in high up
Speaker 3: positions in their companies like CEOs and other executives or
Speaker 3: other high profile positions, when those men are willing to
Speaker 3: demonstrate you know, no, I'm taking time off or no,
Speaker 3: I'm going to be an active and involved dad, that
Speaker 3: not only benefits their own kids, but it also helps
Speaker 3: to change the culture in the organizations that they work
Speaker 3: for in ways that can help to make that a
Speaker 3: model for other men. So, especially being in such a visible,
Speaker 3: you know, high profile position, you can be a model
Speaker 3: not only for the other men that you work with,
Speaker 3: but all the men who are listening to you too.
Speaker 1: Wow, did you hear that, Devin? I think I'm gonna
Speaker 1: take more time off.
Speaker 4: Well, I was gonna say, you guys are already setting
Speaker 4: a model for that. Noah's not here today, You're gonna
Speaker 4: be gone soon. These guys, these guys love to take
Speaker 4: time off to subvert gender stereotypes.
Speaker 5: I love it.
Speaker 1: Jess, thanks so much for joining us. This is super illuminating.
Speaker 6: Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 3: It was great to chat with you.
Speaker 1: All Right, we just finished our conversation with Jess Calarco.
Speaker 1: I thought it was super interesting. What what was something
Speaker 1: you guys found interesting about that?
Speaker 5: Well, it makes so much sense.
Speaker 8: And I guess I saw some of my own life
Speaker 8: we were talking about before, of like when couples get divorced,
Speaker 8: how women actually spend less time on housework because they're
Speaker 8: not cleaning up after Yeah, and yes, I.
Speaker 5: Make a lot of sense, you know. Seeing my dad
Speaker 5: leave alone, I was like, oh.
Speaker 8: Okay, yeah, this is what happens if someone is not
Speaker 8: cleaning up. Yes, you Yeah, And I think her advice
Speaker 8: to you was really really good of just like we
Speaker 8: do think about like, okay, guys, how do you help
Speaker 8: out let me do to lungry.
Speaker 5: Let me do the dishes.
Speaker 8: We don't think about the things, yeah, like doctor's appointments
Speaker 8: and like as my child developed, hitting these milestones like
Speaker 8: things like that, which our work.
Speaker 4: I think the other thing that was interesting that she said, uh,
Speaker 4: was about the fact that actually divorced women are tend
Speaker 4: to be happier, Yeah, and divorced men. And I believe
Speaker 4: that men tend to be sadder, which is really interesting
Speaker 4: because obviously that flies in the face of, uh, you know,
Speaker 4: this kind of divorced stereotypes, which I guess the divorced
Speaker 4: stereotype kind of is the the presumption is that all
Speaker 4: of this is for show and underneath, uh, there's.
Speaker 6: A deep sadness that's happened. But you really don't.
Speaker 4: But but but Jess was right that, you know, you
Speaker 4: don't the stereotypes that exist of divorced women generally speaking,
Speaker 4: are you know, it's kind of more of a negative. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's it's a little bit of the kind of right what,
Speaker 4: there's a little bit of the kind of wine drinking wine,
Speaker 4: kind of bitter. There's some like eat prey love type
Speaker 4: of stuff sometimes as well, which all like could be
Speaker 4: true in certain scenarios. But it's interesting to see, uh
Speaker 4: that actually the reality.
Speaker 6: Is that women are happy.
Speaker 1: God, guys, it must be such a huge, you know,
Speaker 1: weight off the shoulders. Honestly, as he's a thing, No
Speaker 1: such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Our executive
Speaker 1: producers are Kate Osborne and Manes. The show was created
Speaker 1: by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, and Devin Joseph. The theme
Speaker 1: and credit song is by me Manny, and the editing
Speaker 1: and mixing for this episode was done by Steve Bone.
Speaker 1: Thank you to our guest host, Max Tani and our
Speaker 1: experts Micah Steinborn and Jessica Calarco. Be sure to check
Speaker 1: out Max's pod cast over at Semaphore. It's called Mixed Signals.
Speaker 1: Check out doctor Steinborn's YouTube channel at Doctor Micah Steinborn,
Speaker 1: and check out Jessica Calarco's book Holding It Together. If
Speaker 1: you like what you're hearing, be sure to leave us
Speaker 1: five stars wherever you're listening to this podcast and we'll
Speaker 1: see you next week.
Speaker 8: Hell's a Hell's a Hell's a Hell's as such things