WEBVTT - Why do divorced guys act like that? 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:15.880 I'm Manny, I'm Max, and this is no such thing 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.799 the show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:22.560 by actually doing the research on today's episode. Why do 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:28.880 divorce men act like that? There's no no such thing, 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:33.800 no touch thing, touch thank. 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:36.800 Touch, thank. 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:39.680 Touch, thank you. 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:48.040 All right, just a quick programming note. No, we did 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:52.360 not fire Noah, not yet. He's simply on vacation. But 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.440 you never know. Maybe if Max, you know, shows his 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.800 war drop, might have to have a conversation. 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.520 I were a kind of Noah esque sweater today, Yeah, 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:06.600 the same height, like I could fill in, you know. 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:07.440 Yeah. 0:01:07.440 --> 0:01:10.880 We've got a special guest today, a guest who I'm 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:12.200 surprised we have not had on it. 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:13.800 It's kind of disappointing. 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:16.360 Given the fact that you were not only at the 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:18.679 beginning like ten years ago, really at the beginning for 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:22.640 some of these original flavor arguments that inspired this show. 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:27.040 And our special guest is Maxwell Tawny. Thanks for joining us. 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:28.399 I'm excited to be here. 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.520 I don't think I can totally live up to Noah, 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:33.160 but I'll do my best. 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:39.640 Max is a media reporter and editor for Semaphore. But Max, 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:42.600 we're here today because of a pitch that you had 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:46.240 for us. This is actually your idea of this episode, 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:48.480 and so I wondered if you could just walk us 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:51.920 through what your question was and how we can help. 0:01:52.480 --> 0:01:52.720 Yeah. 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.880 You know, as a part of my job thinking about 0:01:55.920 --> 0:02:01.680 and writing about and podcasting about the media business and industry, 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:05.120 you know, I consume a lot of articles. I'm still 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:07.880 one of the few people who I think reads Yeah. Yeah, 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:09.959 my brain isn't totally rotted yet. I can read something 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:13.240 for about thirty seconds. And at the end of the 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:15.960 year last year, I was reading an article in the 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:20.639 Cut listing like the most divorced guys of twenty twenty five, 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.120 which kind of an amusing, you know, old school kind 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:27.480 of style, like twenty ten style blog posts. 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:29.320 But it made me kind of think, like, what is 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.959 clear most divorced, not like amount of times divorced, no, 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.640 kind of the most divorced energy like, which you know, 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:38.840 God got at this point that I was thinking of, 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:42.480 which is why do we all kind of instantly recognize 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:46.560 what that is? Like what makes a divorced guy divorced 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:51.600 seem divorced? What's the type of behavior when people say like, oh, 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:53.520 that's that guy is such a divorced guy, Like, what 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.920 is it? We kind of know what falls into that category, 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:02.919 but I guess I was curious about why that's immediately recognizable, 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.720 and also like why there's no parallel for you know, 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:11.320 in a straight relationship, you know, divorced characteristics for women. 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:13.320 Why is it just and why do we have just 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:15.880 such a vivid picture in our heads. So that's what 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.240 I was hoping that you guys would figure out for me. 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:21.720 But I'm here to help puzzle through it with you. Well, 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:23.600 it's a great question, and I've been thinking about this 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:25.640 a little bit, and you know, not to do a 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:27.960 not all men, but you know there are men who 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:32.120 are divorced who are not the divorced guy, if that 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:34.600 makes sense, right, So we really want to define what 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.880 being a divorced guy or having divorced guy energy is, 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.280 or what the divorce guy stereotype is. So why don't 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:46.920 we walk through some examples. Let's start with you, Max, Like, 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.240 who's a guy that you think is like, this guy 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:52.320 is extremely divorced, not just literally but also in the 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:53.240 way he behaves. 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:57.160 Well, the most famous one right now, I would say, 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:03.920 is former Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who famously got 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:06.320 divorced I think last year or the year before that, 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:12.840 and is now dating Katy Perry in a very public way, 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:18.159 right like kind of fangirling out at her shows in Canada. 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.400 After sparking romance rumors with Katy Perry thanks to this 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:22.839 outing captured by TMZ. 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.640 The politician was on hand for the Pop Stars of 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:27.440 Montreal concert on Wednesday. 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.320 They're showing up at public events together. 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.440 Former prem Minister Justin Trudeau spoke at the Summit today. 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:34.680 His girlfriend, pop star Katy Perry was there on the 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:35.160 front row. 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:37.359 Initially I had come here thinking like, oh, we should 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.360 talk about bezos who famously got married last year, also 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:44.560 a majorly divorced guy. But Justin Trudeau, I think is 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:50.800 like expressing textbook characteristics of what a divorced guy might do. 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.799 Yeah, so he's just like out in public a lot more. 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:56.839 He's dating someone now who's kind of left field for 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:00.920 a politician. I'm trying to think of of like some 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.680 another example, Devin, do you have one. 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.080 I just thought of someone who's actually not divorced who 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:08.000 has divorce guy energy, So that's helpful. 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:11.040 Former in New York City Mayor Eric Adams has divorced 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:14.360 guy energy. Yeah, you know. 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:16.960 I was just like, wait a minute, because he's like, 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.520 I don't think he's been in any like real long 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:21.560 term relationship he has. 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:26.520 He's like he has like a long term domestic partner, 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:30.840 but he definitely has the divorced guy characteristics. Publicly talking 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:34.600 about his ex in like kind of embarrassed of old excess. 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:38.480 Yeah yeah, yeah, sorty from Far Rock, West. 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:40.280 I had a shorty that lived out here. 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.640 You know, you uhould come out, come out taking that 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:47.159 long a train ride, you know, and the cold. 0:05:47.279 --> 0:05:49.320 You know, love is blind and you know. 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:53.640 Talking in a big way about being out. Yeah yeah, 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.040 party partying very publicly. 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.159 Showing you how much fun they're. 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:00.440 Having, showing you how much under having. 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:02.320 That is a great point, And I think that's a good, 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:05.720 uh a great example of a divorced guy stereotype. It's 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:08.359 like he wants you to know how much fun he's having. 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.359 Yeah, I am the mayor. This is a city of nightlife. 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.200 I must test the product. I have to be out. 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:16.680 But wait, who is the one that my reaction was? 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.000 Kanye Kim. 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.120 I just got actually fed in my feed, my TikTok 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:22.760 feed yesterday. 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:23.920 I forgot all about this. 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:26.840 It was him and Drake did some like joint Larry 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.480 Hoover benefit concert, which I don't know if they actually 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:34.640 went to Hoover. But and then during Runaway, Kanye's singing 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:40.000 about wanting Kim to run away back to him a freestyle. 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:42.320 He's just doing right back to me. 0:06:43.520 --> 0:06:50.760 He's doing to me, and I'm like, this is the 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:55.479 most divorced guy thing ever publicly being like, come back 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:55.719 to me. 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:57.440 I'm sorry. What might be? 0:06:57.800 --> 0:07:00.279 What about like the fact that he also likes started 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.720 dating somebody who looked like he was getting. 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:05.919 A couple of people that looked like him before he 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:07.159 landed on his current wife. 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:07.559 Yes. 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.400 How does Kim Kardashian feel about Kanye West dating a 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:17.000 look alike recently? Sources say quote, it's almost have spite 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:20.800 to make him jealous, but she couldn't care less. 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:24.280 Sometimes you see someone date someone who looks like their 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:26.440 acts and you're like, Okay, they've got a type. In 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:29.240 this instance, it's like, Okay, now he's I'm making a 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.880 statement here. He wants people to be talking about this. 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:32.760 Yeah. 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:37.480 My example is as a fictional character, Mia has been 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:39.080 watching Breaking Back. 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:40.360 Oh yeah, and. 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:44.400 There's a whole season arc of Walt Walter White after 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.840 his divorce and how he kind of feels this intense 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.520 desire to reinvent himself. He buys a Dodge Charger, he 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:55.280 buys his son a Dodge Charger, He gets an apartment 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:57.400 and just like buys it as. 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.440 Is no, no, this one's fine, I'll take it now. 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.960 Unfortunately, this one is the model. 0:08:05.040 --> 0:08:08.920 So yeah, I like it, like everything about it. 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.800 I'll take it as all kinds of shit that just 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:16.000 it feels so left field for him. And I think 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.360 the reason is because I guess you get a little 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:19.840 bit more freedom to do things. 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:23.560 Yeah, And I think part of the divorce guy energy 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:26.200 is it's just like where are your priorities? 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:26.440 Right? 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.160 Like you know, they'll buy like a car or a motorcycle. 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:30.720 It's like a little kid spending money. 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:32.760 Yeah, oh my god. Yeah, it feels like kind of 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:34.679 a I guess like coping mechanism or it is in 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:37.160 the in this TV show. At least he doesn't know 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.960 how to deal with getting divorced and does all this 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:40.520 crazy shit. 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:42.679 No, but it is true to Devin's point. 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.120 It's a little bit of like all the stuff that 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:46.880 you kind of wanted to do when you were a 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.400 teenager or maybe in your twenties that you had someone 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:53.839 around a mature force in your life saying like, no, 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.480 we're not gonna do like post shirtless picks. You don't 0:08:57.520 --> 0:08:59.800 need to be doing that, or like we're not you 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:02.120 don't need to buy a motorcycle or go on like 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:05.000 a motorcycle trip with your boys or something like that. 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.480 Though that sounds sick to me. Yeah, so let's just 0:09:08.559 --> 0:09:11.320 distill a couple of characteristics from those examples. So like 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:14.920 we've got someone who wants everyone to know that they're 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.880 having fun. Yeah, We've got people who like try and 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:24.200 reinvent themselves new wardrobe, new wardrobe car. Yeah, dating someone 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.760 who you might not like, you know, someone who didn't 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.840 think you might date before, like just trying trying new things. 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:34.360 There's like they're in the public discourse about divorce. There's 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:39.120 like kind of a tone of like dating someone really silly, 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:42.760 like dating someone completely inappropriate for you in a way 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:45.679 that is not just like kind of like what are 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:50.200 you doing? But that is comedic to us, Like the 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:54.520 idea of Justin Trudeau dating Katy Perry when she is 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:58.800 like going into space, you know, like like the stud 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:03.880 just the stupidest commonation of of possible scenarios that I 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:05.680 think is like plays into it. 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:09.800 It's their version of you know, normis my like like 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:10.440 all of us. 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.839 Although you guys are like Apple Top Podcast whatever, new 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.079 People of the Year, maybe you guys don't qualify anymore, 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.880 but like, you know, normis like like myself. You know, 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:23.480 if if I were to go through a very serious breakup, 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:25.959 it would certainly result in me being on a few 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.880 dates with someone who probably is not gonna end up 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.160 being the love of my life and might to the 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:34.040 general public seem you know, kind of silly, ridiculous, a 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.439 little bit of a head scrutch. But the celebrity version 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.400 of that is like who do I know? Like, oh, 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:43.240 former uh, you know, platinum pop star Katie Perry's like, 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:45.040 that's the kind of people I interact with. 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:46.160 I guess. 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:54.400 Right, that's my next move. Well, that's a that's a 0:10:54.400 --> 0:10:56.959 good point, Max. It's a good transition because I wanted 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:00.520 to ask the three of us, you know, in our 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:04.160 previous breakups, just to really get to the to the 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.480 heart of the this stereotype. Do you feel like you've 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.160 ever behaved this way? I think like when you know, 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:15.120 in previous breakups. I definitely can identify some of these 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:20.080 behaviors from like the most famously divorced celebrities, things like 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:24.800 partying way more, staying out way too late, maybe the 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.600 apartment starts to get a little messier. I'm living in 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.559 my own filth a little bit. As shortly after a breakup, 0:11:31.880 --> 0:11:34.199 you know, wanting to appear this is the big one. 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:37.720 Wanting to appear as if nothing as if it's not 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:43.800 a huge deal. I remember after a previous breakup. It 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:47.160 was like around the time of the World Cup in 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.160 like twenty eighteen or something, and I was just posting 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.520 as if nothing fucking happened. I'm looking at every day 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:56.960 I'm at a bar watching a soccer game. And I 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.280 remember like a few months after that, being like, okay, 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:03.880 so I was definitely attempting something, going through something, you know, subconsciously. 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:05.440 But what about you ever try. 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:06.320 To reinvent yourself? 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:06.560 You know? 0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:09.280 Yeah, I feel like I got like really into like 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:10.520 working out post break. 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:12.679 Yeah, you know, a lot more time. 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:13.800 I'm going to really hit the gym. 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:14.400 There, that's a good. 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:14.920 Yeah. 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.800 So that's yeah. I don't think I've you know, definitely 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.280 maybe some buying, some random new clothes. 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:24.640 Yah, for the blow up is a classic. Do you 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:26.600 either have the glow up or the glow down? 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:29.840 Right, Like, like, okay, we haven't talked was keeping it 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:31.560 together for you exactly. 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.520 Know exactly like we haven't we we haven't talked about 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:37.319 the sad stereotypes as well, you know, such as smoking, 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:43.160 you know, kind of appearing disheveled, drinking a lot more. 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:44.920 Yeah, drinking, Yeah, drinking. 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.120 Partying in a bad way, you know, not a very 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.880 healthy way of partying, either staying up late at the 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.240 clubs or at home not doing anything just up. 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:58.120 Until four I am watching gaming or being on Twitter 0:12:58.200 --> 0:12:59.120 or whatever. Movies. 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.920 But but but to your point, though, I do think 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.200 like the physical uh reinventing yourself in a physical way. 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:09.560 The classic I mean this is like after after a 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:11.480 serious breakup that I went through, is when I decided 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:13.000 I was like, oh, I'm gonna get into running, which 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.000 is like one of it's gotta be like the number 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:19.520 one thing that people do after going through a serious breakup, 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:24.160 working out in some way, but specifically running. Yes, you 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:26.640 don't start down that path if you're just a normal, 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:27.640 well adjusted person. 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:30.840 You got to be trying to get away something, but 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:33.120 then I mean it became something that's a big part 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.040 of your life now running, which is like if you've 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.480 run marathons and you're good at it. Yeah, sometimes some 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:39.840 of these things can be positive. 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.200 I actually think like a lot of this stuff is 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.080 is generally positive. Like I actually that's the thing about 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.520 some of the stereotypes that I think are kind of silly. 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:49.680 It's like it's. 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:53.680 Actually kind of nice to you know, find rediscover kind 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.559 of who you are by putting yourself out there and 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.680 doing some stupid shit and like stuff that otherwise you 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:00.680 might like at yourself. 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.840 For I agree with Max that like some amount of 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.240 that I think is healthy. Like, you know, people need 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:08.320 to find out who they are outside of their partner. 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:10.920 And I think sometimes you're in a relationship for a while, 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.200 you know, you start to kind of become one another. 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:15.600 But I think there's like a healthy window for that. 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:19.720 And I think when the vorce dad energy goes wrong 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.200 is when that person gets stuck in that yeah, and 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:24.280 it just becomes all right, you got divorce four or 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:27.920 five years ago and you're still acting this way. It's like, Okay, 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.520 you're a forty five fifty year old man and a 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:31.760 certain point, maybe you need. 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:32.120 To grow up. 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:35.680 Yeah, I think there's two obvious things we can do 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.320 to figure out like what's going on in the brain 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:40.880 of the divorce guy. One of them is talk to 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.680 a psychologist, which luckily for you too, I've already done, 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.040 and so you'll be hearing from them after the break 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:04.120 All right, I'm Manny, I'm Max Devin, and we're about 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.880 to hear from a psychologist to see if we can 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:10.640 figure out what's going on, you know, behind the set 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:12.480 of eyes of the divorced man. 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:17.200 My name is MIKEA. Steinbwam, and I'm a clinical and 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:18.720 educational psychologist. 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:23.120 So the first question I had for Micah is just 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.280 like basic signs, like what is actually happening to our 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:27.600 brains after a breakup. 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.000 Often people are very surprised at the intensity of what 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:35.680 a breakup or divorce can feel like. They're overwhelmed by 0:15:35.720 --> 0:15:39.080 how bad they feel. So this is actually something that 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.040 is surprising to people. The reason, first of all, it 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.560 feels so bad is because we're a social species, and 0:15:45.640 --> 0:15:49.160 way way back in the lives of our ancestors, if 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.280 we were shunned from the group, if somebody rejected us 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.160 socially that often meant death. So our biology it didn't 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.880 adapt as quickly to our modern life as we might. 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:02.560 So our body is pretty much the same as the 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.800 body of the neanderthals. So when we get rejected socially, 0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:08.880 our bodies think, okay, tomorrow, I'll be eaten by the 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:13.040 tiger or whatever animal was around. So to our biology, 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.880 a divorce or breakup can feel something like this is 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.640 life threatening, like I'm in a life threatening situation right now, 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.880 Like I need to repair this, this needs to be fixed, 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:26.960 like I'm in danger. That's what the biology feels like. 0:16:27.400 --> 0:16:31.040 And like on the chemical level, what this looks like 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:35.200 is that we've got more cortisol. Those are our stress hormones, 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:39.280 so that's often why people can like have digestive issues 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:43.720 or trouble sleeping, or just feel like constantly agitated and 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:48.840 unable to calm down. And we've also got less of oxytocin. 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:52.200 It's also called the cuddle hormone. This is released when 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:55.280 we snuggle and it makes us feel warm and safe 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.960 and relaxed. So if you've got more stress hormones less 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:04.000 of oxytocin, that already kind of explains the stress situation 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:07.440 of the biology. And then there's also a really interesting 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:11.240 study that did brain imaging and what they found is 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:16.560 that after a breakup board divorce, there's a similar activation 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.639 in brain patterns to people going through substance addiction withdrawal. 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:25.720 So this is like the dopamine reward system that's activated, 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:28.840 and that is like it's a chasing system. So this 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:33.200 system makes us want to chase whatever we lost, the 0:17:33.320 --> 0:17:37.399 drug or the person, and that's probably where the cravings 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:42.320 come in and the obsessive thinking, the ruminating, the rescue 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:44.520 mission of I have to get this person back, like 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:46.160 what happened? Where did they go? 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:54.240 So I thought the most interesting piece of information in 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.320 that was that we are like, biologically speaking, we were 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:00.359 kind of behaving as if we're about to die, like 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:04.440 we are outcasts from like some kind of safety net 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:08.040 that we had, and our response is actually like thousands 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:09.280 and thousands of years old. 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:13.560 The comparison it to it like withdrawal from drugs, right, 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:16.280 because I think that speaks to like the stakes feel 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:18.640 so high in the moment where you're like you can't 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.840 imagine what your life will be like a month, two months, 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:26.240 three months, Like each minute feels like excruciating at the time, 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.280 and then when you look back on it, you're like, 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:30.480 why was I feel like really? 0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.720 Yeah, yeah, much like you know, a real withdrawal from 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:39.119 like some substance. You know, you do start to do 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:41.320 things you wouldn't normally do to try and get the 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:44.680 high again. So that doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah, 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:47.959 So I wanted to get to the specific question about, like, 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.240 you know, why is it the case that men seem 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.160 to feel the need to want to reinvent themselves after 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:57.399 a breakup? So I asked Michael what could be behind 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:58.280 that urge? 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:02.639 Often the initial of a divorce or breakup is the woman, 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:05.520 so I think that's where one of the main differences 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.399 comes from. It makes a huge difference whether or not 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:10.800 you choose to go down this path or if it's 0:19:10.960 --> 0:19:14.560 happening to you, So that means it's more intense. It 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:18.600 also happens more suddenly for the man because if so, 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:20.760 the woman is probably didn't decide this on a whim, 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:24.719 so they've been preparing for that, maybe for years emotionally mentally. 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:27.760 But for the party that didn't choose the breakup is 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:29.680 like from one day to the next, their whole life 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:34.840 is shattered. So it's this very big sudden disruption of 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:39.480 their life, of their identity, of their roles, of their 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:43.639 daily structure. And I think that's where the search for 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:46.360 identity comes from. It's like, who am I now now 0:19:46.359 --> 0:19:49.359 that I'm a divorced guy, and now that I see 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.120 my kids maybe only every other week, and now that 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.320 many of my friends won't talk to me anymore because 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:58.520 they feel like they have to decide. People internalize the 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:04.200 rejection after and there's three ways of dealing with that 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.760 in a not so functional way. So let's say something's 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:11.240 not working for them and their emotional processing. It's counter attack, avoidance, 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:12.320 or surrender. 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.760 So just to review, there are kind of three reactions 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:20.160 you could have to internalizing a rejection. So let's say, 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:23.320 for example, in this case, you know the men and 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:26.720 these divorces were not the part of the couple that 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:30.200 decided to get divorced. You could surrender and feel dejected. 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.760 You could experience avoidance, which means you're just not going 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.280 to talk to people again. And then there's the counter attack. 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:38.920 And I think that's really what we're talking about when 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.439 it comes to the energy the aura of these divorced men. 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:45.480 It's a counter attack in the sense that like something 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:47.520 bad happened to me and I have to deal with 0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:50.720 it very publicly and show that it didn't happen to me, 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:53.440 or like that you're maybe taking some kind of control 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:56.440 back from the thing that you didn't have any control over. 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:58.359 Does that sound right to you, guys? 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.800 Yeah, because I think a lot of what we're talking 0:21:01.800 --> 0:21:05.320 about is all kind of like image management, right, Like 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:09.679 the kind of internal stuff that you hear from like 0:21:09.720 --> 0:21:12.280 your friends who or have experienced, you know, from your 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.320 friends who've gone through a breakup, or yourself you've gone 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.200 through a breakup or divorce or whatever. It's oftentimes much 0:21:18.240 --> 0:21:22.280