1
00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,880
Speaker 1: I'm Manny, I'm Max, and this is no such thing

2
00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,799
Speaker 1: the show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours

3
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,560
Speaker 1: by actually doing the research on today's episode. Why do

4
00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:28,880
Speaker 1: divorce men act like that? There's no no such thing,

5
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,800
Speaker 1: no touch thing, touch thank.

6
00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:36,800
Speaker 2: Touch, thank.

7
00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:39,680
Speaker 3: Touch, thank you.

8
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:48,040
Speaker 1: All right, just a quick programming note. No, we did

9
00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:52,360
Speaker 1: not fire Noah, not yet. He's simply on vacation. But

10
00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,440
Speaker 1: you never know. Maybe if Max, you know, shows his

11
00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,800
Speaker 1: war drop, might have to have a conversation.

12
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 4: I were a kind of Noah esque sweater today, Yeah,

13
00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,600
Speaker 4: the same height, like I could fill in, you know.

14
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:07,440
Speaker 5: Yeah.

15
00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,880
Speaker 1: We've got a special guest today, a guest who I'm

16
00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:12,200
Speaker 1: surprised we have not had on it.

17
00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:13,800
Speaker 5: It's kind of disappointing.

18
00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,360
Speaker 1: Given the fact that you were not only at the

19
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,679
Speaker 1: beginning like ten years ago, really at the beginning for

20
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,640
Speaker 1: some of these original flavor arguments that inspired this show.

21
00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,040
Speaker 1: And our special guest is Maxwell Tawny. Thanks for joining us.

22
00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:28,399
Speaker 6: I'm excited to be here.

23
00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,520
Speaker 4: I don't think I can totally live up to Noah,

24
00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,160
Speaker 4: but I'll do my best.

25
00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:39,640
Speaker 1: Max is a media reporter and editor for Semaphore. But Max,

26
00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,600
Speaker 1: we're here today because of a pitch that you had

27
00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,240
Speaker 1: for us. This is actually your idea of this episode,

28
00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,480
Speaker 1: and so I wondered if you could just walk us

29
00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,920
Speaker 1: through what your question was and how we can help.

30
00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:52,720
Speaker 5: Yeah.

31
00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:55,880
Speaker 4: You know, as a part of my job thinking about

32
00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:01,680
Speaker 4: and writing about and podcasting about the media business and industry,

33
00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,120
Speaker 4: you know, I consume a lot of articles. I'm still

34
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,880
Speaker 4: one of the few people who I think reads Yeah. Yeah,

35
00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,959
Speaker 4: my brain isn't totally rotted yet. I can read something

36
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,240
Speaker 4: for about thirty seconds. And at the end of the

37
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,960
Speaker 4: year last year, I was reading an article in the

38
00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,639
Speaker 4: Cut listing like the most divorced guys of twenty twenty five,

39
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,120
Speaker 4: which kind of an amusing, you know, old school kind

40
00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,480
Speaker 4: of style, like twenty ten style blog posts.

41
00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:29,320
Speaker 1: But it made me kind of think, like, what is

42
00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,959
Speaker 1: clear most divorced, not like amount of times divorced, no,

43
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,640
Speaker 1: kind of the most divorced energy like, which you know,

44
00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:38,840
Speaker 1: God got at this point that I was thinking of,

45
00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,480
Speaker 1: which is why do we all kind of instantly recognize

46
00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 1: what that is? Like what makes a divorced guy divorced

47
00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,600
Speaker 1: seem divorced? What's the type of behavior when people say like, oh,

48
00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:53,520
Speaker 1: that's that guy is such a divorced guy, Like, what

49
00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,920
Speaker 1: is it? We kind of know what falls into that category,

50
00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:02,919
Speaker 1: but I guess I was curious about why that's immediately recognizable,

51
00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,720
Speaker 1: and also like why there's no parallel for you know,

52
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:11,320
Speaker 1: in a straight relationship, you know, divorced characteristics for women.

53
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,320
Speaker 1: Why is it just and why do we have just

54
00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:15,880
Speaker 1: such a vivid picture in our heads. So that's what

55
00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,240
Speaker 1: I was hoping that you guys would figure out for me.

56
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,720
Speaker 1: But I'm here to help puzzle through it with you. Well,

57
00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:23,600
Speaker 1: it's a great question, and I've been thinking about this

58
00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,640
Speaker 1: a little bit, and you know, not to do a

59
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,960
Speaker 1: not all men, but you know there are men who

60
00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:32,120
Speaker 1: are divorced who are not the divorced guy, if that

61
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,600
Speaker 1: makes sense, right, So we really want to define what

62
00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,880
Speaker 1: being a divorced guy or having divorced guy energy is,

63
00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,280
Speaker 1: or what the divorce guy stereotype is. So why don't

64
00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:46,920
Speaker 1: we walk through some examples. Let's start with you, Max, Like,

65
00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,240
Speaker 1: who's a guy that you think is like, this guy

66
00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,320
Speaker 1: is extremely divorced, not just literally but also in the

67
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:53,240
Speaker 1: way he behaves.

68
00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,160
Speaker 4: Well, the most famous one right now, I would say,

69
00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:03,920
Speaker 4: is former Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who famously got

70
00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,320
Speaker 4: divorced I think last year or the year before that,

71
00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:12,840
Speaker 4: and is now dating Katy Perry in a very public way,

72
00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:18,159
Speaker 4: right like kind of fangirling out at her shows in Canada.

73
00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,400
Speaker 7: After sparking romance rumors with Katy Perry thanks to this

74
00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:22,839
Speaker 7: outing captured by TMZ.

75
00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,640
Speaker 4: The politician was on hand for the Pop Stars of

76
00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:27,440
Speaker 4: Montreal concert on Wednesday.

77
00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,320
Speaker 6: They're showing up at public events together.

78
00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,440
Speaker 7: Former prem Minister Justin Trudeau spoke at the Summit today.

79
00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:34,680
Speaker 7: His girlfriend, pop star Katy Perry was there on the

80
00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:35,160
Speaker 7: front row.

81
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:37,359
Speaker 4: Initially I had come here thinking like, oh, we should

82
00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,360
Speaker 4: talk about bezos who famously got married last year, also

83
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,560
Speaker 4: a majorly divorced guy. But Justin Trudeau, I think is

84
00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:50,800
Speaker 4: like expressing textbook characteristics of what a divorced guy might do.

85
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he's just like out in public a lot more.

86
00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,839
Speaker 1: He's dating someone now who's kind of left field for

87
00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,920
Speaker 1: a politician. I'm trying to think of of like some

88
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,680
Speaker 1: another example, Devin, do you have one.

89
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,080
Speaker 8: I just thought of someone who's actually not divorced who

90
00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,000
Speaker 8: has divorce guy energy, So that's helpful.

91
00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,040
Speaker 5: Former in New York City Mayor Eric Adams has divorced

92
00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,360
Speaker 5: guy energy. Yeah, you know.

93
00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:16,960
Speaker 8: I was just like, wait a minute, because he's like,

94
00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,520
Speaker 8: I don't think he's been in any like real long

95
00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:21,560
Speaker 8: term relationship he has.

96
00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:26,520
Speaker 4: He's like he has like a long term domestic partner,

97
00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:30,840
Speaker 4: but he definitely has the divorced guy characteristics. Publicly talking

98
00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,600
Speaker 4: about his ex in like kind of embarrassed of old excess.

99
00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,480
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah, yeah, sorty from Far Rock, West.

100
00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,280
Speaker 5: I had a shorty that lived out here.

101
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,640
Speaker 8: You know, you uhould come out, come out taking that

102
00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:47,159
Speaker 8: long a train ride, you know, and the cold.

103
00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,320
Speaker 5: You know, love is blind and you know.

104
00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,640
Speaker 4: Talking in a big way about being out. Yeah yeah,

105
00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,040
Speaker 4: party partying very publicly.

106
00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,159
Speaker 5: Showing you how much fun they're.

107
00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,440
Speaker 6: Having, showing you how much under having.

108
00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,320
Speaker 1: That is a great point, And I think that's a good,

109
00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,720
Speaker 1: uh a great example of a divorced guy stereotype. It's

110
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,359
Speaker 1: like he wants you to know how much fun he's having.

111
00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, I am the mayor. This is a city of nightlife.

112
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,200
Speaker 5: I must test the product. I have to be out.

113
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,680
Speaker 1: But wait, who is the one that my reaction was?

114
00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,000
Speaker 5: Kanye Kim.

115
00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,120
Speaker 8: I just got actually fed in my feed, my TikTok

116
00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:22,760
Speaker 8: feed yesterday.

117
00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:23,920
Speaker 5: I forgot all about this.

118
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,840
Speaker 8: It was him and Drake did some like joint Larry

119
00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,480
Speaker 8: Hoover benefit concert, which I don't know if they actually

120
00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:34,640
Speaker 8: went to Hoover. But and then during Runaway, Kanye's singing

121
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:40,000
Speaker 8: about wanting Kim to run away back to him a freestyle.

122
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,320
Speaker 6: He's just doing right back to me.

123
00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:50,760
Speaker 9: He's doing to me, and I'm like, this is the

124
00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:55,479
Speaker 9: most divorced guy thing ever publicly being like, come back

125
00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:55,719
Speaker 9: to me.

126
00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:57,440
Speaker 5: I'm sorry. What might be?

127
00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:00,279
Speaker 4: What about like the fact that he also likes started

128
00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,720
Speaker 4: dating somebody who looked like he was getting.

129
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,919
Speaker 8: A couple of people that looked like him before he

130
00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:07,159
Speaker 8: landed on his current wife.

131
00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:07,559
Speaker 5: Yes.

132
00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,400
Speaker 2: How does Kim Kardashian feel about Kanye West dating a

133
00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:17,000
Speaker 2: look alike recently? Sources say quote, it's almost have spite

134
00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,800
Speaker 2: to make him jealous, but she couldn't care less.

135
00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,280
Speaker 1: Sometimes you see someone date someone who looks like their

136
00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,440
Speaker 1: acts and you're like, Okay, they've got a type. In

137
00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,240
Speaker 1: this instance, it's like, Okay, now he's I'm making a

138
00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:31,880
Speaker 1: statement here. He wants people to be talking about this.

139
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:32,760
Speaker 5: Yeah.

140
00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,480
Speaker 1: My example is as a fictional character, Mia has been

141
00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:39,080
Speaker 1: watching Breaking Back.

142
00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:40,360
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, and.

143
00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,400
Speaker 1: There's a whole season arc of Walt Walter White after

144
00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,840
Speaker 1: his divorce and how he kind of feels this intense

145
00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,520
Speaker 1: desire to reinvent himself. He buys a Dodge Charger, he

146
00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 1: buys his son a Dodge Charger, He gets an apartment

147
00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,400
Speaker 1: and just like buys it as.

148
00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,440
Speaker 9: Is no, no, this one's fine, I'll take it now.

149
00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,960
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, this one is the model.

150
00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,920
Speaker 7: So yeah, I like it, like everything about it.

151
00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,800
Speaker 1: I'll take it as all kinds of shit that just

152
00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,000
Speaker 1: it feels so left field for him. And I think

153
00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,360
Speaker 1: the reason is because I guess you get a little

154
00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:19,840
Speaker 1: bit more freedom to do things.

155
00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, And I think part of the divorce guy energy

156
00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,200
Speaker 8: is it's just like where are your priorities?

157
00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:26,440
Speaker 5: Right?

158
00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,160
Speaker 8: Like you know, they'll buy like a car or a motorcycle.

159
00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:30,720
Speaker 8: It's like a little kid spending money.

160
00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:32,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god. Yeah, it feels like kind of

161
00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:34,679
Speaker 1: a I guess like coping mechanism or it is in

162
00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,160
Speaker 1: the in this TV show. At least he doesn't know

163
00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,960
Speaker 1: how to deal with getting divorced and does all this

164
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:40,520
Speaker 1: crazy shit.

165
00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:42,679
Speaker 6: No, but it is true to Devin's point.

166
00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,120
Speaker 4: It's a little bit of like all the stuff that

167
00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 4: you kind of wanted to do when you were a

168
00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,400
Speaker 4: teenager or maybe in your twenties that you had someone

169
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,839
Speaker 4: around a mature force in your life saying like, no,

170
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,480
Speaker 4: we're not gonna do like post shirtless picks. You don't

171
00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,800
Speaker 4: need to be doing that, or like we're not you

172
00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,120
Speaker 4: don't need to buy a motorcycle or go on like

173
00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,000
Speaker 4: a motorcycle trip with your boys or something like that.

174
00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,480
Speaker 1: Though that sounds sick to me. Yeah, so let's just

175
00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:11,320
Speaker 1: distill a couple of characteristics from those examples. So like

176
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:14,920
Speaker 1: we've got someone who wants everyone to know that they're

177
00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,880
Speaker 1: having fun. Yeah, We've got people who like try and

178
00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:24,200
Speaker 1: reinvent themselves new wardrobe, new wardrobe car. Yeah, dating someone

179
00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:26,760
Speaker 1: who you might not like, you know, someone who didn't

180
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,840
Speaker 1: think you might date before, like just trying trying new things.

181
00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,360
Speaker 4: There's like they're in the public discourse about divorce. There's

182
00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:39,120
Speaker 4: like kind of a tone of like dating someone really silly,

183
00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,760
Speaker 4: like dating someone completely inappropriate for you in a way

184
00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,679
Speaker 4: that is not just like kind of like what are

185
00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:50,200
Speaker 4: you doing? But that is comedic to us, Like the

186
00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:54,520
Speaker 4: idea of Justin Trudeau dating Katy Perry when she is

187
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,800
Speaker 4: like going into space, you know, like like the stud

188
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:03,880
Speaker 4: just the stupidest commonation of of possible scenarios that I

189
00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:05,680
Speaker 4: think is like plays into it.

190
00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:09,800
Speaker 6: It's their version of you know, normis my like like

191
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:10,440
Speaker 6: all of us.

192
00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,839
Speaker 4: Although you guys are like Apple Top Podcast whatever, new

193
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,079
Speaker 4: People of the Year, maybe you guys don't qualify anymore,

194
00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,880
Speaker 4: but like, you know, normis like like myself. You know,

195
00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,480
Speaker 4: if if I were to go through a very serious breakup,

196
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:25,959
Speaker 4: it would certainly result in me being on a few

197
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,880
Speaker 4: dates with someone who probably is not gonna end up

198
00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 4: being the love of my life and might to the

199
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,040
Speaker 4: general public seem you know, kind of silly, ridiculous, a

200
00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,439
Speaker 4: little bit of a head scrutch. But the celebrity version

201
00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,400
Speaker 4: of that is like who do I know? Like, oh,

202
00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,240
Speaker 4: former uh, you know, platinum pop star Katie Perry's like,

203
00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,040
Speaker 4: that's the kind of people I interact with.

204
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:46,160
Speaker 6: I guess.

205
00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:54,400
Speaker 1: Right, that's my next move. Well, that's a that's a

206
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,959
Speaker 1: good point, Max. It's a good transition because I wanted

207
00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,520
Speaker 1: to ask the three of us, you know, in our

208
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,160
Speaker 1: previous breakups, just to really get to the to the

209
00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,480
Speaker 1: heart of the this stereotype. Do you feel like you've

210
00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,160
Speaker 1: ever behaved this way? I think like when you know,

211
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:15,120
Speaker 1: in previous breakups. I definitely can identify some of these

212
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:20,080
Speaker 1: behaviors from like the most famously divorced celebrities, things like

213
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,800
Speaker 1: partying way more, staying out way too late, maybe the

214
00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,600
Speaker 1: apartment starts to get a little messier. I'm living in

215
00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,559
Speaker 1: my own filth a little bit. As shortly after a breakup,

216
00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,199
Speaker 1: you know, wanting to appear this is the big one.

217
00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,720
Speaker 1: Wanting to appear as if nothing as if it's not

218
00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:43,800
Speaker 1: a huge deal. I remember after a previous breakup. It

219
00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,160
Speaker 1: was like around the time of the World Cup in

220
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,160
Speaker 1: like twenty eighteen or something, and I was just posting

221
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,520
Speaker 1: as if nothing fucking happened. I'm looking at every day

222
00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,960
Speaker 1: I'm at a bar watching a soccer game. And I

223
00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,280
Speaker 1: remember like a few months after that, being like, okay,

224
00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,880
Speaker 1: so I was definitely attempting something, going through something, you know, subconsciously.

225
00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:05,440
Speaker 1: But what about you ever try.

226
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:06,320
Speaker 5: To reinvent yourself?

227
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:06,560
Speaker 1: You know?

228
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, I feel like I got like really into like

229
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:10,520
Speaker 8: working out post break.

230
00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:12,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, a lot more time.

231
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:13,800
Speaker 5: I'm going to really hit the gym.

232
00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:14,400
Speaker 1: There, that's a good.

233
00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:14,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

234
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,800
Speaker 1: So that's yeah. I don't think I've you know, definitely

235
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,280
Speaker 1: maybe some buying, some random new clothes.

236
00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,640
Speaker 6: Yah, for the blow up is a classic. Do you

237
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:26,600
Speaker 6: either have the glow up or the glow down?

238
00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,840
Speaker 8: Right, Like, like, okay, we haven't talked was keeping it

239
00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:31,560
Speaker 8: together for you exactly.

240
00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,520
Speaker 4: Know exactly like we haven't we we haven't talked about

241
00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,319
Speaker 4: the sad stereotypes as well, you know, such as smoking,

242
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:43,160
Speaker 4: you know, kind of appearing disheveled, drinking a lot more.

243
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:44,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, drinking, Yeah, drinking.

244
00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,120
Speaker 4: Partying in a bad way, you know, not a very

245
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:51,880
Speaker 4: healthy way of partying, either staying up late at the

246
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:55,240
Speaker 4: clubs or at home not doing anything just up.

247
00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:58,120
Speaker 1: Until four I am watching gaming or being on Twitter

248
00:12:58,200 --> 00:12:59,120
Speaker 1: or whatever. Movies.

249
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,920
Speaker 4: But but but to your point, though, I do think

250
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,200
Speaker 4: like the physical uh reinventing yourself in a physical way.

251
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,560
Speaker 4: The classic I mean this is like after after a

252
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:11,480
Speaker 4: serious breakup that I went through, is when I decided

253
00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:13,000
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, I'm gonna get into running, which

254
00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,000
Speaker 4: is like one of it's gotta be like the number

255
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,520
Speaker 4: one thing that people do after going through a serious breakup,

256
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:24,160
Speaker 4: working out in some way, but specifically running. Yes, you

257
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,640
Speaker 4: don't start down that path if you're just a normal,

258
00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:27,640
Speaker 4: well adjusted person.

259
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:30,840
Speaker 1: You got to be trying to get away something, but

260
00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,120
Speaker 1: then I mean it became something that's a big part

261
00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,040
Speaker 1: of your life now running, which is like if you've

262
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,480
Speaker 1: run marathons and you're good at it. Yeah, sometimes some

263
00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:39,840
Speaker 1: of these things can be positive.

264
00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,200
Speaker 4: I actually think like a lot of this stuff is

265
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,080
Speaker 4: is generally positive. Like I actually that's the thing about

266
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,520
Speaker 4: some of the stereotypes that I think are kind of silly.

267
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:49,680
Speaker 6: It's like it's.

268
00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,680
Speaker 4: Actually kind of nice to you know, find rediscover kind

269
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,559
Speaker 4: of who you are by putting yourself out there and

270
00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,680
Speaker 4: doing some stupid shit and like stuff that otherwise you

271
00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:00,680
Speaker 4: might like at yourself.

272
00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:03,840
Speaker 8: For I agree with Max that like some amount of

273
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,240
Speaker 8: that I think is healthy. Like, you know, people need

274
00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,320
Speaker 8: to find out who they are outside of their partner.

275
00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 8: And I think sometimes you're in a relationship for a while,

276
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,200
Speaker 8: you know, you start to kind of become one another.

277
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,600
Speaker 8: But I think there's like a healthy window for that.

278
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,720
Speaker 8: And I think when the vorce dad energy goes wrong

279
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,200
Speaker 8: is when that person gets stuck in that yeah, and

280
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,280
Speaker 8: it just becomes all right, you got divorce four or

281
00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:27,920
Speaker 8: five years ago and you're still acting this way. It's like, Okay,

282
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,520
Speaker 8: you're a forty five fifty year old man and a

283
00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:31,760
Speaker 8: certain point, maybe you need.

284
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:32,120
Speaker 5: To grow up.

285
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's two obvious things we can do

286
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,320
Speaker 1: to figure out like what's going on in the brain

287
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,880
Speaker 1: of the divorce guy. One of them is talk to

288
00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,680
Speaker 1: a psychologist, which luckily for you too, I've already done,

289
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,040
Speaker 1: and so you'll be hearing from them after the break

290
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:04,120
Speaker 1: All right, I'm Manny, I'm Max Devin, and we're about

291
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,880
Speaker 1: to hear from a psychologist to see if we can

292
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,640
Speaker 1: figure out what's going on, you know, behind the set

293
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,480
Speaker 1: of eyes of the divorced man.

294
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,200
Speaker 7: My name is MIKEA. Steinbwam, and I'm a clinical and

295
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:18,720
Speaker 7: educational psychologist.

296
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,120
Speaker 1: So the first question I had for Micah is just

297
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,280
Speaker 1: like basic signs, like what is actually happening to our

298
00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 1: brains after a breakup.

299
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 7: Often people are very surprised at the intensity of what

300
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,680
Speaker 7: a breakup or divorce can feel like. They're overwhelmed by

301
00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,080
Speaker 7: how bad they feel. So this is actually something that

302
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,040
Speaker 7: is surprising to people. The reason, first of all, it

303
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,560
Speaker 7: feels so bad is because we're a social species, and

304
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,160
Speaker 7: way way back in the lives of our ancestors, if

305
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,280
Speaker 7: we were shunned from the group, if somebody rejected us

306
00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,160
Speaker 7: socially that often meant death. So our biology it didn't

307
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,880
Speaker 7: adapt as quickly to our modern life as we might.

308
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:02,560
Speaker 7: So our body is pretty much the same as the

309
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,800
Speaker 7: body of the neanderthals. So when we get rejected socially,

310
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:08,880
Speaker 7: our bodies think, okay, tomorrow, I'll be eaten by the

311
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:13,040
Speaker 7: tiger or whatever animal was around. So to our biology,

312
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,880
Speaker 7: a divorce or breakup can feel something like this is

313
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,640
Speaker 7: life threatening, like I'm in a life threatening situation right now,

314
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,880
Speaker 7: Like I need to repair this, this needs to be fixed,

315
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,960
Speaker 7: like I'm in danger. That's what the biology feels like.

316
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,040
Speaker 7: And like on the chemical level, what this looks like

317
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,200
Speaker 7: is that we've got more cortisol. Those are our stress hormones,

318
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,280
Speaker 7: so that's often why people can like have digestive issues

319
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 7: or trouble sleeping, or just feel like constantly agitated and

320
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 7: unable to calm down. And we've also got less of oxytocin.

321
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:52,200
Speaker 7: It's also called the cuddle hormone. This is released when

322
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,280
Speaker 7: we snuggle and it makes us feel warm and safe

323
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,960
Speaker 7: and relaxed. So if you've got more stress hormones less

324
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:04,000
Speaker 7: of oxytocin, that already kind of explains the stress situation

325
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,440
Speaker 7: of the biology. And then there's also a really interesting

326
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,240
Speaker 7: study that did brain imaging and what they found is

327
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 7: that after a breakup board divorce, there's a similar activation

328
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,639
Speaker 7: in brain patterns to people going through substance addiction withdrawal.

329
00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,720
Speaker 7: So this is like the dopamine reward system that's activated,

330
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,840
Speaker 7: and that is like it's a chasing system. So this

331
00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,200
Speaker 7: system makes us want to chase whatever we lost, the

332
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,399
Speaker 7: drug or the person, and that's probably where the cravings

333
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:42,320
Speaker 7: come in and the obsessive thinking, the ruminating, the rescue

334
00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 7: mission of I have to get this person back, like

335
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,160
Speaker 7: what happened? Where did they go?

336
00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,240
Speaker 1: So I thought the most interesting piece of information in

337
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 1: that was that we are like, biologically speaking, we were

338
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,359
Speaker 1: kind of behaving as if we're about to die, like

339
00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,440
Speaker 1: we are outcasts from like some kind of safety net

340
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,040
Speaker 1: that we had, and our response is actually like thousands

341
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 1: and thousands of years old.

342
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,560
Speaker 8: The comparison it to it like withdrawal from drugs, right,

343
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,280
Speaker 8: because I think that speaks to like the stakes feel

344
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:18,640
Speaker 8: so high in the moment where you're like you can't

345
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,840
Speaker 8: imagine what your life will be like a month, two months,

346
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 8: three months, Like each minute feels like excruciating at the time,

347
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,280
Speaker 8: and then when you look back on it, you're like,

348
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,480
Speaker 8: why was I feel like really?

349
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:35,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, much like you know, a real withdrawal from

350
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:39,119
Speaker 1: like some substance. You know, you do start to do

351
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,320
Speaker 1: things you wouldn't normally do to try and get the

352
00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,680
Speaker 1: high again. So that doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah,

353
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,959
Speaker 1: So I wanted to get to the specific question about, like,

354
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,240
Speaker 1: you know, why is it the case that men seem

355
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,160
Speaker 1: to feel the need to want to reinvent themselves after

356
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,399
Speaker 1: a breakup? So I asked Michael what could be behind

357
00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:58,280
Speaker 1: that urge?

358
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,639
Speaker 7: Often the initial of a divorce or breakup is the woman,

359
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,520
Speaker 7: so I think that's where one of the main differences

360
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,399
Speaker 7: comes from. It makes a huge difference whether or not

361
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,800
Speaker 7: you choose to go down this path or if it's

362
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,560
Speaker 7: happening to you, So that means it's more intense. It

363
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,600
Speaker 7: also happens more suddenly for the man because if so,

364
00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 7: the woman is probably didn't decide this on a whim,

365
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,719
Speaker 7: so they've been preparing for that, maybe for years emotionally mentally.

366
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 7: But for the party that didn't choose the breakup is

367
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,680
Speaker 7: like from one day to the next, their whole life

368
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,840
Speaker 7: is shattered. So it's this very big sudden disruption of

369
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:39,480
Speaker 7: their life, of their identity, of their roles, of their

370
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,639
Speaker 7: daily structure. And I think that's where the search for

371
00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,360
Speaker 7: identity comes from. It's like, who am I now now

372
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,359
Speaker 7: that I'm a divorced guy, and now that I see

373
00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,120
Speaker 7: my kids maybe only every other week, and now that

374
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,320
Speaker 7: many of my friends won't talk to me anymore because

375
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,520
Speaker 7: they feel like they have to decide. People internalize the

376
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 7: rejection after and there's three ways of dealing with that

377
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 7: in a not so functional way. So let's say something's

378
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,240
Speaker 7: not working for them and their emotional processing. It's counter attack, avoidance,

379
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 7: or surrender.

380
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 1: So just to review, there are kind of three reactions

381
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,160
Speaker 1: you could have to internalizing a rejection. So let's say,

382
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 1: for example, in this case, you know the men and

383
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 1: these divorces were not the part of the couple that

384
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,200
Speaker 1: decided to get divorced. You could surrender and feel dejected.

385
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 1: You could experience avoidance, which means you're just not going

386
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,280
Speaker 1: to talk to people again. And then there's the counter attack.

387
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 1: And I think that's really what we're talking about when

388
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,439
Speaker 1: it comes to the energy the aura of these divorced men.

389
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,480
Speaker 1: It's a counter attack in the sense that like something

390
00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 1: bad happened to me and I have to deal with

391
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 1: it very publicly and show that it didn't happen to me,

392
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,440
Speaker 1: or like that you're maybe taking some kind of control

393
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,440
Speaker 1: back from the thing that you didn't have any control over.

394
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,359
Speaker 1: Does that sound right to you, guys?

395
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, because I think a lot of what we're talking

396
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 4: about is all kind of like image management, right, Like

397
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,679
Speaker 4: the kind of internal stuff that you hear from like

398
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 4: your friends who or have experienced, you know, from your

399
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 4: friends who've gone through a breakup, or yourself you've gone

400
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,200
Speaker 4: through a breakup or divorce or whatever. It's oftentimes much

401
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 4: more of the what you would expect, the real sadness, loneliness,

402
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:27,400
Speaker 4: and like kind of vulnerability, Whereas what we see, you know,

403
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 4: on our feeds when somebody breaks up is always the

404
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 4: counter attack that the kind of messaging. Right now, As

405
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,320
Speaker 4: a media reporter, I'm sure you've run into this all

406
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,639
Speaker 4: the time where some news story came out something that

407
00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,240
Speaker 4: was like an exposit or whatever, and you needed to

408
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 4: like get.

409
00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,560
Speaker 1: A comment or something like that. Is that behavior kind

410
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 1: of the same, where like they need to make sure

411
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:51,679
Speaker 1: actually that this thing that you heard about them is

412
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 1: not true or that you know, it's not a big

413
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 1: deal to them. Do you run into this that work.

414
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 6: It's spit, It's definitely yeah.

415
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,719
Speaker 4: I mean, like there's the entire business of you know,

416
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,239
Speaker 4: spinning all of these things right. And part of the

417
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 4: things that we all, I think are laughing at to

418
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 4: a certain degree is is the spin. You know, whether

419
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:19,199
Speaker 4: that is just posting yourself you know, shredded selfies, you know,

420
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 4: or dating somebody significantly younger or something like that. That's

421
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,199
Speaker 4: it's both those things are both for the soul but

422
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 4: also obviously have to do with in some regards with

423
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:33,920
Speaker 4: image Max.

424
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 1: Earlier, you had a question about the difference between men

425
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 1: and women at post breakup, and so I asked Micah

426
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 1: about this.

427
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 7: I think a lot of the things that people sometimes

428
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 7: think about may not be what's actually at play, Like

429
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 7: there could be deeper things like like there's differences in

430
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 7: attachment styles. So there's four different attachment styles. This is

431
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 7: the way we show up in relationships, and there's one

432
00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 7: that's like the healthy one, it's called secure attachment. That's

433
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,800
Speaker 7: around fifty percent of people. And then we have the

434
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 7: other fifty percent of people have an insecure attachment style

435
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 7: and there's three of them. There's five percent of people

436
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:15,359
Speaker 7: who have what's called disorganized attachment. That's a very unpredictable

437
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,919
Speaker 7: pattern of being in relationships. It's like the typical on

438
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:23,359
Speaker 7: off relationship. And then the rest, which is about like

439
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 7: twenty two percent each is avoidant and anxious attachment. And

440
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 7: men are more likely to have avoidant attachment. Women are

441
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 7: lean more towards the anxious attachment side. And I think

442
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,360
Speaker 7: often when we see how men and women deal with

443
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 7: breakups differently, we think it's because of gender. Maybe gender

444
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,360
Speaker 7: also plays a role in what attachments to somebody has,

445
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 7: but it's more the attachment style than necessarily gender. I

446
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 7: would say that really influences what it feels like, what

447
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 7: it's like. So and an avoidant attachment means bottling up emotions,

448
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 7: not really being in touch with your emotions, but still

449
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 7: being influenced by them and trying to cope with emotions.

450
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 7: I mean the insecure attachment styles have unhealthy coping mechanisms.

451
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 7: And for avoidant attachment, that's like substance abuse or gaming

452
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 7: or work addiction, kind of like any anything that takes

453
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 7: your mind off of your problem. That's like the the

454
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 7: person who doesn't really know what to do with these

455
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 7: emotions and maybe also had some like mental health struggles

456
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 7: or not such great resilience even before the divorce. So

457
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 7: this divorce is just the tip of the iceberg, and

458
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 7: then it all kind of comes crashing down and the

459
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 7: things that they never learned before are now really causing great,

460
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 7: great havoc.

461
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: So it seems like when it comes to the gender breakdown,

462
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: it has a lot to do with attachment styles, which

463
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,160
Speaker 1: is like something I see on social media a lot.

464
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: I haven't really like tried to figure out what they mean.

465
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. Ye healthy, Yeah, I think I've probably

466
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: got the healthiest attachment. If I had to grade myself.

467
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 5: The best one on there, I got that one. The

468
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 5: good one is.

469
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, I guess we didn't necessarily get to why

470
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 1: why we don't talk about women having any kind of

471
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 1: divorce energy. And I think what our psychologists here is

472
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: saying is that they're less likely to have the different

473
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: attachment styles or kind of counterattacks, uh that would lead

474
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: to that in the first place.

475
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,199
Speaker 8: I think too, you know what she was saying earlier

476
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 8: in regards to like, in a lot of these situations,

477
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 8: the woman is initiating the divorce.

478
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

479
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, and as a child, you know, I think I'm

480
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 8: the only child of divorce here, right, My parents are

481
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 8: not yor so as someone who has seen this play out,

482
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,719
Speaker 8: there is a thing of like, yeah, and you think

483
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 8: about it a breakups too. Right, There's one person who's like,

484
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 8: I need to break up with this person. I need

485
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 8: to find the right moment to do that. So they're

486
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 8: mentally planning for that moment in their heads.

487
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 1: That could be years.

488
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 8: Yeah, it could be a long period of time. So

489
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 8: when it actually happens, it's not like it's like, oh

490
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 8: my god, what is happening Versus the guy in ali

491
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 8: of situations who's oblivious to just how he was like,

492
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,120
Speaker 8: whoa wait, do you have an issue in our relationship?

493
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 8: So to them, it's like a huge shock. Yeah, And

494
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 8: if it's a huge shock to them and they having

495
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 8: unhealthy attachment style, it's just like it's just like the

496
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 8: snowball effects.

497
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: Well, how old were you when your parents got divorced.

498
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 5: I was in fifth grade.

499
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: So maybe not old enough to kind of like understand

500
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: if your dad was doing the divorce kind of Oh.

501
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 8: He definitely had like he started, he definitely had divorced

502
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 8: guy energy, Like he like started smoking cigars, which he

503
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 8: never did beforehand.

504
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 1: That's a classic one.

505
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 8: And it was like some stuff was like the classic

506
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 8: case of like my mom was the cleaner one of

507
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 8: the two, so like when I would go visit him,

508
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 8: his house would be like a mess and he just

509
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,120
Speaker 8: like less structure, Like it wouldn't be like like why

510
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 8: are we eating at this time? You know, Like it

511
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 8: was classic like divorce dad energy.

512
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: For sing it's and it's funny. It was so obvious

513
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: that you were in fifth Oh yeah, I was.

514
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 5: Like, Okay, there's this. My mom had all the structure here.

515
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: My last question that I asked the psychologist was, you know,

516
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: if there's any divorced guys listening to this podcast right

517
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: now and you don't want to appear, you know, this way,

518
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 1: or you don't want to get like lean into any

519
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 1: of the more unhealthy ways of dealing with a divorce,

520
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 1: you know, what should they be doing? How should they

521
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:26,920
Speaker 1: deal with their breakup?

522
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 7: It helps to acknowledge that it's painful, because often what

523
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 7: can happen is people will be like, what's wrong with

524
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 7: me that I'm suffering this?

525
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 1: Much?

526
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 7: Like I should be over this. This shouldn't affect me

527
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 7: as much. I'm such a loser for being this week,

528
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 7: And to not have those kind of thoughts because you're

529
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 7: already in pain, why make it worse with these judgments,

530
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 7: and just really accept this is painful. It is for

531
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 7: ninety nine percent of people going through this, and you're

532
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 7: not alone in this, and it's completely acceptable to struggle

533
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 7: and not be okay. And then to make sure, because

534
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 7: it's such a loss of control, to make sure that

535
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 7: you really don't kind of chuck all of control out

536
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 7: of the window, but try to stay on top of

537
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 7: everything that you can stay on top of. So that

538
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 7: means try to keep like a regular routine throughout the day,

539
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 7: like try to sleep at the roughly the same time

540
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 7: and get enough sleep, have regular meals, exercise, find a

541
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 7: way also to have space for your emotions. Maybe that's journaling, meditation,

542
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 7: thinking about it when you're on walks. Socializing is important,

543
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 7: meet up with friends, join communities, and even if you

544
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 7: don't feel like doing any of those things or like

545
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 7: pursuing hobbies. I mean, often people are like, I don't

546
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 7: want to be a Debbie downer at the party, so

547
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 7: I'm just not gonna go. But that's not a healthy

548
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 7: thing to do, and I think you can burden your

549
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 7: friendships a bit like that and just not be the

550
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 7: life of the party and just still come and sit

551
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 7: in the corner and at least be part of it.

552
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 7: Then just isolating at home.

553
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: Okay, after the break, we're going to talk to a

554
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: sociologist and find out why divorced women actually spend less

555
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: time on housework than they did before the divorce. All right,

556
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: we're back and we're here with Jessica Calarco, Professor of

557
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: sociology at the University of Wisconsin. Jess thanks for joining us.

558
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me.

559
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: Could you start by just telling us what you do

560
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: for a living exactly?

561
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 3: Sure. I'm a sociologist and also an author. I've written

562
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 3: a couple books on inequalities in family life and education,

563
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 3: and the most recent one is probably the one that's

564
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 3: most relevant to our conversation today, which is Holding It Together,

565
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: How women became America's safety net.

566
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'm curious about this kind of argument in thesis.

567
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 1: Could you tell us a little bit about it briefly?

568
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 3: Sure.

569
00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:58,239
Speaker 2: So.

570
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 3: Basically, in other countries, governments use tax dollars to fund

571
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 3: social programs that help take care of people and keep

572
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 3: them safe from harm. I'm talking about, you know, programs

573
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 3: like guaranteed healthcare, universal childcare and elder care, robust unemployment benefits,

574
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: paid sickly, things along those lines. In the US, we

575
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 3: instead tend to tell people it's your responsibility to take

576
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 3: care of yourself and keep yourself safe. You know, that's

577
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 3: not the government's job. The problem, though, is that there

578
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 3: are plenty of people in our society who can't take

579
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 3: care of themselves or keep themselves safe in those ways.

580
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 3: I mean most easily that you could point to the children,

581
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 3: the sick, the elderly, and so in those cases someone

582
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 3: else needs to step in to take care of them.

583
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 3: And you know, certainly men could share equally in that

584
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 3: responsibility with women, but most men in the US end

585
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: up leveraging their privilege and their power in society to

586
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 3: push that work onto women instead, and going further, particularly

587
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,719
Speaker 3: in married type relationships, a lot of men also leverage

588
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 3: that same privilege and power to get women to take

589
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: care of their needs, like with cooking and cleaning and

590
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 3: emotional support, on top of the work that women are

591
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 3: already doing for themselves and for those who are too

592
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 3: young or too old or too sick to take care

593
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 3: of themselves.

594
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 4: How do you see that people's lives and relationships. Let's

595
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 4: talk about like a place that has a strong safety net,

596
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 4: like Norway or something like that, you know, Scandinavian country.

597
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 4: I mean we're talking about, you know, heteronormative relationship. Here.

598
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 4: Do you see a difference between the actual lives of

599
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 4: in particular women in those countries and women in the

600
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 4: US because of this lack of this safety net.

601
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 3: Absolutely so. Essentially what you see is that the gender

602
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 3: inequalities in things like time on housework, time on childcare.

603
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 3: You see smaller gaps between men and women in those

604
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: other countries that have invested more in these kinds of

605
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,240
Speaker 3: supports than we see in the US. And at the

606
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: same time, it's not because men are necessarily doing more

607
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 3: than men here. You actually see both men and women

608
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 3: in those other countries spending less time on things like

609
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 3: housework and childcare than you see in the US. And

610
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 3: it's because there's less of that labor to go around.

611
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 3: You know, there's more of that labor that we can

612
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 3: turn to the state for support with, and so we

613
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 3: don't need to take on as much of that ourselves.

614
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 3: Which means that you both see less inequality and more

615
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 3: things like leisure time for everyone, more time for sleep,

616
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 3: more time for fun because you can offload some of

617
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 3: that responsibility to the state to kind of other paid

618
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 3: caregivers that are better compensated than paid caregivers in the US.

619
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: In this episode, we're kind of endeavoring to get to

620
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: the bottom of like the divorced guy stereotype. I'm curious

621
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: about how divorce specifically, you know, plays a role in

622
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: the dynamic you're talking about with these safety nets.

623
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 3: I've heard of this stereotype that I think the answer

624
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 3: here is maybe a little bit complicated because these these

625
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 3: trends kind of work in complex ways. So you see,

626
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 3: inequalities in housework and childcare are one of the primary

627
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 3: reasons why couples in the US tend to get divorced

628
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 3: in the first place. That the more unequal couples are,

629
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: that puts a strain on relationships and can actually, particularly

630
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 3: if women are financially in a position to be able

631
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 3: to leave a relationship like that where things are very unequal,

632
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 3: it's highly likely that they'll do so. And actually after

633
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 3: divorce things tend to get a little better for women,

634
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 3: at least on the housework front. Basically, divorced women spend

635
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 3: less time on housework than married women do because husbands

636
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 3: are actually creating a lot of housework for women, and

637
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 3: so you know, after they get divorced, women don't have

638
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 3: to spend as much time taking care of men, and

639
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: so they're actually no seriously and this is part of

640
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 3: why women are happier after divorce than men, is because

641
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 3: they don't have that one extra person that they're spending

642
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,959
Speaker 3: a lot of time taking care of, and so there

643
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 3: is sort of this complex relationship here. At the same time,

644
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 3: you know, there are complexities here in the sense that

645
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 3: after divorce, women do tend to take on more of

646
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 3: the caregiving the child care responsibilities in households with kids,

647
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 3: and so it does save some time on the houseworkfront,

648
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 3: but it can create some more challenge is on the

649
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: care workfront at the same time.

650
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: What an incredible indictment. So like, after a divorce, you're

651
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 1: mentioning that women do take on more responsibility in terms

652
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: of not necessarily housework, but childcare. Do you think that

653
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: plays a role into this stereotype we're talking about, where

654
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 1: you know, could it be the case that women would

655
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 1: be leaning into this stereotype if they had the time

656
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: to do it.

657
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is another place where the data are

658
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 3: a little bit complicated in the sense that we actually

659
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 3: know that even before they get divorced, if couples are

660
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 3: still married, if we're talking about you know, men women

661
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 3: types of couples, married men actually get a lot more

662
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 3: leisure time already than married women do. On average, it's

663
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 3: about two hours more per week that men are spending

664
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 3: on leisure time that when they're married and when both

665
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 3: partners are working full time. And those gaps actually get

666
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 3: even bigger when you put kids into the equation, So

667
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 3: it's almost three hours a week difference between married moms

668
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 3: with young kids and married dads with young kids in

669
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 3: terms of how much time they're spending on leisure time

670
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 3: for themselves. And so, you know, basically, even though we

671
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 3: often think of divorced dads as the ones who are

672
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 3: getting all this time, married men are actually already getting

673
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 3: this bonus at the same time when it comes to

674
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 3: things like hobbies. And this is another place where things

675
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 3: get complicated, because divorced moms are actually better off leisure

676
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 3: time wise than married moms that married moms are the

677
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,760
Speaker 3: ones who are in the worst place when it comes

678
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 3: to things like leisure time, in part because, especially if

679
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 3: they have shared custody arrangements after divorce, moms might have

680
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 3: a couple days off a week or every other week

681
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 3: where they're not with the kids, and so they can

682
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 3: invest more in hobbies. They don't get as much time

683
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 3: as divorced dads do, but they do get slightly more

684
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 3: time than moms, and so it is kind of this

685
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 3: more complex relationship. The other complicating factor for divorced moms, though,

686
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 3: is that compared to dads and because of gender pay gaps,

687
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 3: they tend to have much lower incomes, and especially for

688
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 3: moms who've say, taken some time out of the workforce

689
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 3: to care for their kids while they were young, or

690
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 3: taken a step back career wise, and so even if

691
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 3: they have a little bit more time to invest in

692
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 3: leisure time activities, they have less resources compare to dad,

693
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 3: and so they end up doing things that are more

694
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 3: stay at home types of activities, reading more books or

695
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 3: watching more TV, as opposed to say, going out and

696
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 3: joining clubs or doing other things that you know, cost money.

697
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 3: When it comes to their.

698
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: Leisure yeah by buying a motorcycle.

699
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 4: For example, not so likely here, So, Jess, mostly we've

700
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 4: been talking about, you know, heteronormative relationships, but obviously you know,

701
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 4: there are a lot of queer relationships where I would

702
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 4: imagine some of these expectations are inverted, or some of

703
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 4: the norms and habits might be a little bit different.

704
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 4: Can you talk a little bit about how queer relationships

705
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 4: might be a little bit different than some of the

706
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 4: straight relationships we've been talking about.

707
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, and part because same sex marriage is legally more

708
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 3: new than kind of more heterosexual marriages, we don't have

709
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 3: as much data on what happens post divorce, for example,

710
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 3: with these couples. But what we do know from these

711
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,879
Speaker 3: couples more generally is that queer couples tend to have

712
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 3: more egalitarian divisions of labor when it comes to things

713
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 3: like housework and wildcare, in part because they don't bring

714
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 3: with them the same gender baggage you know that comes

715
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 3: into men women types of relationships when it comes to

716
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 3: pressure to be the breadwinner versus the homemaker, and so

717
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 3: they can push those stereotypes in ways that allow them

718
00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 3: to find arrangements that work better for them as individuals.

719
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 3: At the same time, that doesn't mean that things are

720
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 3: always perfectly equal. Some of the same sex couples that

721
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 3: I've interviewed in my own research, for example, talk about

722
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 3: the stresses that they feel, especially once kids are added,

723
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 3: that you know, if one if they can't find childcare.

724
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 3: For example, I talked to one couple with two moms

725
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 3: who they really wanted to split everything equally, and yet

726
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 3: they struggled to find child care. The first spot they

727
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 3: could find was a part time spot when their daughter

728
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 3: was nine months old, and they only had a couple

729
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 3: of weeks of paid family leave, and so it was this,

730
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 3: you know, how do we make things work in the meantime,

731
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 3: And one of the moms ended up, you know, first

732
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 3: dropping back to part time work and then dropping out

733
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 3: of the workforce entirely to care for her daughter because

734
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 3: that was the only way they could make it work.

735
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 3: And so I think it's important to note that these

736
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 3: these kinds of structural conditions that that make it harder

737
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 3: for families. This lack of childcare, for example, or a

738
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: lack of paid family leave is also affecting same sex couples,

739
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 3: but it's at the same time they're often more creative

740
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 3: than different gender couples when it comes to finding ways

741
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 3: to make that work in more equal ways.

742
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 1: I spoke to a psychologist about this kind of stereotype

743
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: with the divorced guys. I'm curious, from a sociological perspective,

744
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: what do you think is driving this stereotype. Are there

745
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: sociological factors at play here that don't have to do

746
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: with what's happening in the brain, for.

747
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 3: Example, That's a good question. I mean, I think this

748
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 3: is one of those places where the stereotype is often

749
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 3: what gets portrayed, you know, in terms of media and

750
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 3: particularly now social media as well. And so we can

751
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 3: certainly imagine that if you know, mom's post divorce are

752
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,919
Speaker 3: mostly staying home and reading books or watching movies, or

753
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 3: you know, maybe getting together with their friends every once

754
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:54,280
Speaker 3: in a while, whereas dads are going out and buying

755
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 3: motorcycles or you know, taking trips, that those things are

756
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 3: more instagrammable, you know, it's the kind of thing that

757
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 3: they're going to put out there more maybe to show

758
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 3: that they're having fun. So there could be some image

759
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 3: projection going along with this, particularly if that's reinforced by

760
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 3: the way that divorced ads tend to be portrayed in

761
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 3: the media, So even if things are a little bit

762
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 3: more complicated in real life, the way that media and

763
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 3: social media tend to amplify things might help to reinforce

764
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 3: these stereotypes, even if even if the reality is more complex.

765
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 4: You're saying, the shirtless pictures at the gym are projection.

766
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: That's interesting.

767
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,439
Speaker 6: I mean, it seems likely.

768
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 4: I'm curious, though, like, do you have a theory about

769
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 4: why there is not a divorced woman stereotype? And is

770
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 4: that like a I don't know, is that a bad

771
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:41,239
Speaker 4: Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

772
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,479
Speaker 6: I guess that's a good question.

773
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there are stereotypes of divorced women,

774
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 3: but they're often not very positive ones. They're often seen

775
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 3: as sort of bitter and angry. They're often portrayed as

776
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 3: despite the fact that they are on average happier, despite

777
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 3: with the data show. And I think that is a

778
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,360
Speaker 3: way that the sort of stereotypes that do ex of

779
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 3: divorced women, I would argue are used to punish divorced women,

780
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,720
Speaker 3: are used to say that, you know, you should be married.

781
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 3: We live in a culture that still very much valorizes

782
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 3: marriage and parenthood. You know, for all people, We've had

783
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 3: decades of policy money dumped into marriage promotion programs, for example.

784
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 3: And so I think these kinds of stereotypes when we

785
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 3: do see divorced women portrayed in media, the sort of angry, grumpy,

786
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 3: wine drinking mom who's sitting at home all the time,

787
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 3: exactly exactly, this sort of greedy stereotypes here too, really

788
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 3: portray this in ways that are designed, I would argue,

789
00:40:34,040 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 3: to discourage women from divorcing, even when they're in these

790
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: kinds of unequal relationships that they might be inclined to

791
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 3: want to leave.

792
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 8: I think back to that Jade Vance got in trouble

793
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 8: for that clip of telling women basically saying that you

794
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:48,280
Speaker 8: should stay together for the kids.

795
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,320
Speaker 10: And this is one of the great tricks that I

796
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 10: think the sexual Revolution pulled on the American populace, which

797
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,919
Speaker 10: is this idea that like, well, okay, these marriages were

798
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 10: fundamentally you know, they were maybe even violent, but certainly

799
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 10: they were unhappy, and so getting rid of them and

800
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 10: making it easier for people to shift spouses like they

801
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 10: change their underwear, that's going to make people happier in

802
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:10,640
Speaker 10: the long term.

803
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 6: And maybe it worked out for the moms and dads.

804
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 10: Though I'm skeptical, but it really didn't work out for

805
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 10: the kids of those marriages.

806
00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 8: In media, and I think in real life people have this, well,

807
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 8: couldn't you just like stick it out? Sort of like

808
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 8: mentality to women a lot of times like how bad

809
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 8: could have possibly have been?

810
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 3: And certainly the idea as you were suggesting this, this

811
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 3: perception that it's better for the kids if parents stay together,

812
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 3: and really that's not with the data show, particularly if

813
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,919
Speaker 3: we're talking about high conflict marriages, if we're talking about

814
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 3: marriages that have a risk of physical abuse or emotional

815
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 3: abuse or financial abuse, that these kinds of situations, it

816
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 3: is much better for kids if their parents separate and

817
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 3: are not in that situation together. You know, it may

818
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 3: be hard in the short term, but in the long

819
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 3: term that the kids are are highly resilient and are

820
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 3: able to navigate through those kinds of separations and divorces

821
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,320
Speaker 3: and it can ultimately lead to better out comes in

822
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 3: the end.

823
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: By the time this episode comes out, I will be

824
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: in a relationship that has a child in it and congratulations,

825
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: thank you. Kind of a weird way to announce that,

826
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: but I first at first, At first I was going

827
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: to say that I'm about to have a kid, but

828
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: by the time this comes out, I will have a kid. Anyway,

829
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: I'm curious, you know, what are some of the factors

830
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 1: I could be thinking about more that I could be

831
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,320
Speaker 1: more aware of to make sure are to at least,

832
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: you know, get a little bit better in stopping some

833
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: of the disparities that we've been talking about, especially like

834
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: at home, like in the home.

835
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 3: Ah, this is a great question that I wish every

836
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 3: new dad was asking this is this is a great question.

837
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 3: So I think, you know, there's one of the things

838
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 3: that you can do is pay attention to the cognitive

839
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 3: labor This is one of the easiest things to overlook

840
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:53,840
Speaker 3: that it's easy to see the housework, it's easy to

841
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 3: see the childcare. The parts that are easier to miss

842
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 3: are the worry work that goes into raising children and

843
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 3: men a household. Who is thinking about when is the

844
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 3: next doctor visit coming up? Do we have it on

845
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 3: the schedule? You know, do we have the right medications?

846
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 3: You know, when is my kid following all of the

847
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 3: developmental milestones? Are there things that we need to be

848
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 3: watching out for, you know, the kind of worry work

849
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 3: that often falls to women, and we think of it as,

850
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 3: you know, well, that's just women being you know, more anxious,

851
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 3: women being the worriers. But it stems from the fact

852
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 3: that women know that they're going to be the crisis

853
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 3: management team. They're going to be the ones who have

854
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 3: to fix it if stuff goes wrong, and so if

855
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 3: their kid gets sick, they're going to have to be

856
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:30,879
Speaker 3: the one to take them to the doctor more, they're

857
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 3: going to have to be the one to do more

858
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 3: of the care work. And so if men can take

859
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 3: on more of that worry work or more of that

860
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 3: cognitive labor of figuring out what needs to happen, monitoring

861
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 3: for potential problems, figuring out potential solutions, you know, contributing

862
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 3: to the logistical you know, planning and carrying out of

863
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 3: tasks and not just waiting for the list to show up.

864
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 3: You know, that's a great way to do this. And

865
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: sometimes you can do that by offering to take over domains,

866
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 3: you know, saying I'll handle everything related to you know,

867
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 3: health care, or I'll handle everything related to figuring out childcare.

868
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 3: Some couples it works really well that way. Other couples

869
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 3: like to have a hand in everything together. There's not

870
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 3: one right way or wrong way to do it, but

871
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 3: making sure that it's not just about waiting for a

872
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 3: list and being ready to kind of step in and

873
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 3: help create the list on the front end too. And

874
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 3: I think the other piece is pushing back against stereotypes.

875
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 3: It's very easy for men to face criticisms if they're

876
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 3: taking time off at work, if they're you know, leaving

877
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 3: early to go to a doctor's appointment, for example, and

878
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 3: being willing to say, hey, no, I'm a new dad,

879
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 3: I should be there, this is my role. We know

880
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 3: from research that when men who are in high up

881
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 3: positions in their companies like CEOs and other executives or

882
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 3: other high profile positions, when those men are willing to

883
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 3: demonstrate you know, no, I'm taking time off or no,

884
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 3: I'm going to be an active and involved dad, that

885
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,439
Speaker 3: not only benefits their own kids, but it also helps

886
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 3: to change the culture in the organizations that they work

887
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 3: for in ways that can help to make that a

888
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 3: model for other men. So, especially being in such a visible,

889
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 3: you know, high profile position, you can be a model

890
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 3: not only for the other men that you work with,

891
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 3: but all the men who are listening to you too.

892
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: Wow, did you hear that, Devin? I think I'm gonna

893
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: take more time off.

894
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 4: Well, I was gonna say, you guys are already setting

895
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,879
Speaker 4: a model for that. Noah's not here today, You're gonna

896
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 4: be gone soon. These guys, these guys love to take

897
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 4: time off to subvert gender stereotypes.

898
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 5: I love it.

899
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: Jess, thanks so much for joining us. This is super illuminating.

900
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 6: Thanks so much for having me.

901
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 3: It was great to chat with you.

902
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 1: All Right, we just finished our conversation with Jess Calarco.

903
00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: I thought it was super interesting. What what was something

904
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 1: you guys found interesting about that?

905
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 5: Well, it makes so much sense.

906
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,359
Speaker 8: And I guess I saw some of my own life

907
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 8: we were talking about before, of like when couples get divorced,

908
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 8: how women actually spend less time on housework because they're

909
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 8: not cleaning up after Yeah, and yes, I.

910
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 5: Make a lot of sense, you know. Seeing my dad

911
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 5: leave alone, I was like, oh.

912
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 8: Okay, yeah, this is what happens if someone is not

913
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 8: cleaning up. Yes, you Yeah, And I think her advice

914
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 8: to you was really really good of just like we

915
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 8: do think about like, okay, guys, how do you help

916
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 8: out let me do to lungry.

917
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 5: Let me do the dishes.

918
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 8: We don't think about the things, yeah, like doctor's appointments

919
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 8: and like as my child developed, hitting these milestones like

920
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,760
Speaker 8: things like that, which our work.

921
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 4: I think the other thing that was interesting that she said, uh,

922
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 4: was about the fact that actually divorced women are tend

923
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:31,720
Speaker 4: to be happier, Yeah, and divorced men. And I believe

924
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 4: that men tend to be sadder, which is really interesting

925
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 4: because obviously that flies in the face of, uh, you know,

926
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 4: this kind of divorced stereotypes, which I guess the divorced

927
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 4: stereotype kind of is the the presumption is that all

928
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 4: of this is for show and underneath, uh, there's.

929
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,720
Speaker 6: A deep sadness that's happened. But you really don't.

930
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 4: But but but Jess was right that, you know, you

931
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 4: don't the stereotypes that exist of divorced women generally speaking,

932
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 4: are you know, it's kind of more of a negative. Yeah,

933
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 4: it's it's a little bit of the kind of right what,

934
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 4: there's a little bit of the kind of wine drinking wine,

935
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,240
Speaker 4: kind of bitter. There's some like eat prey love type

936
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 4: of stuff sometimes as well, which all like could be

937
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,800
Speaker 4: true in certain scenarios. But it's interesting to see, uh

938
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,720
Speaker 4: that actually the reality.

939
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 6: Is that women are happy.

940
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 1: God, guys, it must be such a huge, you know,

941
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: weight off the shoulders. Honestly, as he's a thing, No

942
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,680
Speaker 1: such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content. Our executive

943
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: producers are Kate Osborne and Manes. The show was created

944
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman, and Devin Joseph. The theme

945
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 1: and credit song is by me Manny, and the editing

946
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: and mixing for this episode was done by Steve Bone.

947
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: Thank you to our guest host, Max Tani and our

948
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: experts Micah Steinborn and Jessica Calarco. Be sure to check

949
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: out Max's pod cast over at Semaphore. It's called Mixed Signals.

950
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: Check out doctor Steinborn's YouTube channel at Doctor Micah Steinborn,

951
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 1: and check out Jessica Calarco's book Holding It Together. If

952
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: you like what you're hearing, be sure to leave us

953
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: five stars wherever you're listening to this podcast and we'll

954
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: see you next week.

955
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 8: Hell's a Hell's a Hell's a Hell's as such things