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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Clarence Thomas took thirty eight quote

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Speaker 1: unquote gift vacations paid for by people who had business

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Speaker 1: in front of the Supreme Court. We have such an

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Speaker 1: interesting show today. Michigan Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson talks

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Speaker 1: to us about how to secure elections, and then we'll

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Speaker 1: talk to slat's Mark Joseph Stern about the Supreme Court's

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Speaker 1: recent ghost gun surprise ruling and what it means for

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Speaker 1: the dynamics of the court. But first we have the Bulwarks.

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Speaker 1: Charlie Sykes, Welcome back to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 2: Charlie Sikes, Hey, it is great to be back. Too

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Speaker 2: bad we don't have anything to talk about though.

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Speaker 1: I was just saying we were talking about this piece

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Speaker 1: that you wrote again, Churchillian, and it's funny because Darwin

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Speaker 1: and I went to the war room, so we are,

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Speaker 1: like Churchill is on the brand the Churchillian case against

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Speaker 1: a Trump pardon. I want to talk to you about

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Speaker 1: that first because there's been big drama at the Bulwark

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Speaker 1: in a good intellectual way about this idea of would

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Speaker 1: a Trump pardon actually lead to more violence or would

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Speaker 1: it perhaps sue the fractured nation what.

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Speaker 2: You're describing as sort of the point counterpoint, JVL wrote

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Speaker 2: a piece the Keynesian case for a Trump pardon. I

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Speaker 2: beg to differ rather significantly with That's why I came

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Speaker 2: back with you have canes. I'm going to go with Churchill,

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Speaker 2: who knew a little bit about appeasement, who knew a

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Speaker 2: little bit about you know, hoping that the alligator eats

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Speaker 2: you last. Look, First of all, it's premature to be

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Speaker 2: talking about a Trump pardon. But a Trump pardon as

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Speaker 2: an idea, it is. It is mad, bad and dangerous.

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Speaker 2: Because does anybody think that Trump would learn his lesson?

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Speaker 2: Does anybody think that he would go away quietly? Does

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Speaker 2: anybody think that this changes the incentive structure in America

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Speaker 2: that has given rise to so many demagogues out there

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Speaker 2: who are willing to undermine democracy. I mean, I understand

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Speaker 2: that there's high risk in pursuing criminal charges. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm willing to concede that, But you have to weigh

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Speaker 2: risks versus risk, and the risk of not prosecuting Trump,

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Speaker 2: I think is greater than the risk of prosecuting him.

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Speaker 2: But the idea of a pardon essentially confirming that the

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Speaker 2: president of the United States is above the law, that

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Speaker 2: they cannot be prosecuted while they're president, and after they

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Speaker 2: leave the presidency, the criminal justice system is never going

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Speaker 2: to hold them accountable. What a terrible precedent, and we

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Speaker 2: would be living with that for decades. Terrible idea.

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Speaker 1: I just want to say, this is the last time

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Speaker 1: we will ever compare Lord Byron to Donald Trump. I

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Speaker 1: think you would to anything Trumpian.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the mad, bad, and dangerous to know is is

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Speaker 2: Carolyn Lamb's description of Lord Byron, And yes, the similarities

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Speaker 2: and right.

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Speaker 1: There, right there, yes, But I do want to talk

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Speaker 1: about this idea of how you stop people from doing

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Speaker 1: bad things, right, because that's where we are now in

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Speaker 1: the Republican Party, right and in America as the country

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Speaker 1: is how do we stop people from doing bad things?

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Speaker 1: And the reason why this pardon and your pardon piece

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Speaker 1: was so interesting, and you brought up this Nixon's pardon,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know, in my mind, sort of the

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Speaker 1: original sin and I think you sort of think that too.

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Speaker 1: But Trump was number one thousand, I think five hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty three or something people who have been indicted

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Speaker 1: on January six charges. Many many of those other people

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Speaker 1: are actually like in jail.

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Speaker 2: Right, the little people are in jail. And I think

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Speaker 2: this was one of the sort of the festering injustices

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Speaker 2: that the little people who listened to Donald Trump's call

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Speaker 2: to come to Washington and be wild. They were arrested,

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Speaker 2: they were charged, they were tried, they were convicted, they

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Speaker 2: are in jail. But Donald Trump and his immediate circle,

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Speaker 2: the people who instigated it, had faced no consequences. And

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Speaker 2: there's just something wrong with that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if Donald trum again, like this

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Speaker 1: is a sort of unknown unknown, but like obviously there's

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Speaker 1: a percentage of people who consider Trump to be a

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Speaker 1: religious figure and who would do very dangerous things to

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Speaker 1: protect him.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there's no question about it. I don't sense

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Speaker 2: that Donald Trump is any quieter, and I don't sense

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Speaker 2: that his supporters are any quiet I think that they

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Speaker 2: are breathing menace every single day, and I think that

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Speaker 2: it's becoming more menacing, it's becoming more dangerous. The threat

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Speaker 2: of violence is in fact rising. So if you don't

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Speaker 2: confront that, if you don't say the full force of

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Speaker 2: the law will come down on you if you behave

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Speaker 2: in this way. I don't see how you stop this

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Speaker 2: bad behavior if you give Donald Trump and a pardon

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Speaker 2: would be the ultimate get out of jail free card,

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Speaker 2: essentially saying, Okay, you conspired to overturn the election, you

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Speaker 2: conspired to have a coup, you obstructed beneficial proceeding, you

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Speaker 2: violated the Espionage Act, and you engage perhaps in racketeering.

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Speaker 2: But hey, you know, no harm, no foul go on

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Speaker 2: normally in a pardon. I know this may seem a

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Speaker 2: little bit quaint. There's an assumption that you have been rehabilitated,

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Speaker 2: or that you are showing some sort of remorse. Right,

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Speaker 2: this does not apply to Donald Trump at all. And

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Speaker 2: you mentioned Richard Nixon, and I am old enough, of

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Speaker 2: course to remember that, and I can certainly remember, you know,

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Speaker 2: what I was doing, you know, on that day in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy four when he resigned, and then when Gerald

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Speaker 2: Ford pardoned him. At the time, I didn't think that

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Speaker 2: it was a terrible precedent. I did, actually, I think

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Speaker 2: I like a lot of Americans, I took a deep breath,

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Speaker 2: and it was kind of a relief that we could

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Speaker 2: move on from that, that we wouldn't be stuck in that.

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Speaker 2: But in retrospect, it was a bad precedent and it

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Speaker 2: did establish this this notion somehow that the presidency was

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Speaker 2: this imperial king like institution that really, you know, was

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Speaker 2: not held to the same standards as we lesser commoners.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's fundamentally anti American. I think that's

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Speaker 2: fundamentally anti democratic and against the spirit of the Constitution.

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Speaker 2: So unfortunately, this is morphed into this notion that if

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Speaker 2: you were a sitting president, you cannot be indicted. And

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Speaker 2: even though Mitch McConnell and others said, well, you know what,

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Speaker 2: even if we don't impeach the guy, you know, with

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Speaker 2: the criminal justice system, you know, still will have jurisdiction,

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Speaker 2: Well now you have the right going No, not even now,

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Speaker 2: you know, we were against impeachment. We were against and

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Speaker 2: we were against holding mccennabal when he was president. We

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Speaker 2: supported him for another term. And now we think that

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Speaker 2: it's wrong that that in fact he'd be charged with

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Speaker 2: breaking the law that hundreds of other people who have

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Speaker 2: been charged with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean Mitch McConnell again, don't cry for

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Speaker 1: Mitch McConnell. He has millions or billions of dollars, are

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Speaker 1: quite rich, very powerful. But he did have this moment

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Speaker 1: in Kentucky where they were booing him, which, you know,

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Speaker 1: if your whole life is about this quest for power,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that must have been at experience for her.

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Speaker 2: In a reminder, the karma is a bitch. He had

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Speaker 2: the opportunity to do what he knew was the right

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Speaker 2: thing many times, but particularly in that second impeachment. Had

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Speaker 2: he voted along with his colleagues to remove Donald Trump,

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Speaker 2: that would have disqualified him from ever running, we wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be here today. And he knew that Donald Trump was

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Speaker 2: responsible for January sixth, he said it explicitly, but under

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Speaker 2: our constitutional system, he had the obligation and the opportunity

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Speaker 2: to do something about it, and he failed. I do

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Speaker 2: wonder what goes on in his mind now as he

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Speaker 2: looks back and you know, he's being booed and Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump is tweeting it out and attacking him and vilifying

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Speaker 2: his wife and throwing racial epithets at his wife, which

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Speaker 2: by the way, should be a big deal in and

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Speaker 2: of itself, but it's like now, it's like a footnote

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Speaker 2: to page twenty eight of the terrible things Donald Trump does,

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Speaker 2: and so Mitch McConnell very much reaping what he sewed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is incredible she used to be

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Speaker 1: in his cabinet, right, Like I mean, imagine just even

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Speaker 1: if you just back on Earth one, you had a

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Speaker 1: president attacking a member of his cabinet, right, I mean

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Speaker 1: on the internet. I mean, even that, you know, would

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Speaker 1: have been just a complete scandal to end all scandals.

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Speaker 2: Well, and among the many, many, many unprecedented things that

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Speaker 2: we're dealing with, has ever been a president who has

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Speaker 2: been denounced by so many members of his own cabinet.

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Speaker 2: I mean, think of the list of people who had

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Speaker 2: been named to these positions by Donald Trump, members of

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Speaker 2: his staff, his chief of staff, his secretary of State,

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Speaker 2: his secretary of Defense, his attorney general, one after another,

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Speaker 2: all saying yet we work with this guy, we supported

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Speaker 2: this guy, and we have to tell you he is

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Speaker 2: unfit for office and should never be allowed back in

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Speaker 2: the oval office. You would think, Molly, that at that

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Speaker 2: point that with all of these show we think negative

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Speaker 2: reference letters from his colleagues, that that would have more

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Speaker 2: of an effect that it's having with Republican base voters

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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 1: You really know the Republican Party or the pre Trump

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Speaker 1: Republican Party. And it seems like even though look, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of us hoped that these indictments might

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Speaker 1: break the spell, that clearly did not happen. But it

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Speaker 1: feels like to me, just viscerally, that the Republican Party,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I still think they're going to go along

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Speaker 1: with Trump, but it feels like the calculus has changed

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Speaker 1: a bit. Do you agree? And what is the calculus

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Speaker 1: and how has it changed?

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, what is the Republican Party. We've

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Speaker 2: been talking about this for a long time. The Republican

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Speaker 2: Party or the Republican establishment or the adults in the

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Speaker 2: Republican Party. Who the hell are these people? I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think Judge Ludig, Who's right, There is no Republican Party.

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Speaker 2: There's just this angry base. So if you watch some

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Speaker 2: of the videos out of Iowa when the candidates speak,

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Speaker 2: you get a sense of what you know, who they are.

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Speaker 2: So Asa Hutchinson talks about the rule of law in

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Speaker 2: the Department of Justice, crickets. Nikki Haley gets up and

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Speaker 2: talks about why we should support Ukraine crickets. Vivic Ramaswami

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Speaker 2: gets up and spews some sort of pandering demagoji and

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Speaker 2: the place goes absolutely freaking wild. So what is this?

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Speaker 2: What is interesting to me is that I think there

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Speaker 2: are here, here's an oxymoron. Thoughtful Republicans understand what a

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Speaker 2: disaster it is to basically lash yourself to a man

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Speaker 2: who at the moment faces seventy eight felony charges, were

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Speaker 2: facing four separate criminal cases next year. They understand this

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Speaker 2: is I think this political malpractice on a scale that

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Speaker 2: we have not even imagined before. And by the time

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Speaker 2: the really heavy shit hits, they will have already essentially

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Speaker 2: renominated him brilliant, real men of genius, and it will

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Speaker 2: have an effect all up and down the ticket. To

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Speaker 2: your question, there's a time in everybody's life, in every

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Speaker 2: political party's life, where the id just runs wild and

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Speaker 2: they can't help themselves. You know, he ask why are

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Speaker 2: you doing that? Why are you know? Why are they

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Speaker 2: decided to take that step? Why are they going with

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Speaker 2: carry lake? And it's because it is it is kind

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Speaker 2: of the ideological id or or to change the metaphor

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Speaker 2: a little bit, you know, they're scratching their ideological itch.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like they can't help themselves to the extent

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Speaker 2: that I can understand it, and a lot of it

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Speaker 2: is hard to understand. I mean, honestly, my book was

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Speaker 2: How the Right Lost its Mind. I mean, like what

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Speaker 2: happened here, it's an invasion of the body s natchers.

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Speaker 1: But part of what.

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Speaker 2: Happens is sometimes you get caught up in the fight

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Speaker 2: and the fight becomes about the fight, not about what

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Speaker 2: you thought you were fighting about, not about anything. It's

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Speaker 2: just like we're in a fight and we hate the

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Speaker 2: other side and they hate us, and we have to win.

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Speaker 2: We can't let them win. We can't lose. It is

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Speaker 2: the fight. And you might look at the person saying, okay,

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Speaker 2: remind me what we're fighting about, and not quite clear

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Speaker 2: about that. You know, maybe it would even change, But

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Speaker 2: you can be caught up in that us versus them,

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Speaker 2: and sort of you see red. And I think in

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Speaker 2: a sense that's what's happening. Is they've lashed themselves to

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump. They have made so many compromises, so many

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Speaker 2: rationalizations with with Donald Trump, the rule of sunken costs.

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Speaker 2: They're in this deep. You know, once you've carved out

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Speaker 2: eighty six percent of your soul. It's not hard to

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Speaker 2: carve out another four percent, you know, and there is

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Speaker 2: sort of a he's our guy and we're going to

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Speaker 2: stick with him no matter what. And you know, some

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Speaker 2: part of their brain deep down knows that this is

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Speaker 2: perhaps not the smartest, wisest, most decent, prudent thing to do,

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Speaker 2: and they just can't help themselves.

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Speaker 1: But this is this fundamental problem. I argue about this

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Speaker 1: with George Conway all the time, which is what do

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Speaker 1: they become the whigs? I mean, right, like, play this

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Speaker 1: out for a minute. They nominate Trump. Trump goes on

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Speaker 1: and again, Trump could win. It's electoral college, he might win.

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Speaker 1: You sort of underestimate him at his own peril, but

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Speaker 1: it's going to be an uphill slog for him, and

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Speaker 1: he's going to be in and out of federal court

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Speaker 1: and state court during that time. So then is there

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Speaker 1: a come to Jesus moment where they're like, look, the

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Speaker 1: base loves scary fascism. But I mean, do they then

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Speaker 1: go back to as I mean.

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Speaker 2: No, Jesus has left the room. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: to come to Jesus moment? Is if there was going

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Speaker 2: to be a come to Jesus moment Jesus came lots

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Speaker 2: of time to the Republican Party. I mean that moment

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Speaker 2: came and they said, yeah, we're too busy. We'd rather

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Speaker 2: go with the orange caligula. We'd rather go with Brobas.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they could have taken an off ramp after

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Speaker 2: the election. They could have taken an off ramp after

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Speaker 2: January sixth, They could have taken an off ramp after

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Speaker 2: he was indicted. They could mean, they're not taking the

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Speaker 2: off ramp. There's not going to become this moment. My

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Speaker 2: concern is that this culture has become so deeply rooted

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Speaker 2: that even if Donald Trump, when Donald Trump leaves the scene,

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Speaker 2: there's no return to normal. See, the tale of this

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Speaker 2: is going to be extremely long. There are young people

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Speaker 2: who are getting into politics now, for whom this is

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Speaker 2: the new normal, this abnormal, bizarre world that we live in.

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Speaker 2: This is all they know. This is the way you

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Speaker 2: you rise, This is how you get celebrity. This is

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Speaker 2: the way people talk with one another, This is how

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Speaker 2: you deal with facts and truth and moral dilemmas. And

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Speaker 2: those people will be around Molly thirty forty fifty years

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Speaker 2: from now.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that is the sort of ron DeSantis dilemma.

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Speaker 1: If we're going to talk about that, right, is that

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Speaker 1: his staffers. You know, we saw this that he had

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Speaker 1: a staffer who tweeted out a Nazi video. I mean

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Speaker 1: it wasn't necessarily a Nazi video, but it certainly had

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Speaker 1: Nazi ideology. I don't know, I mean, was Nazi ish,

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Speaker 1: it was Nazi adjacent. I mean I feel like once

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Speaker 1: you start trying to qualify your Nazi experience. But I

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Speaker 1: mean these young staffers are a large group of people.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and you know, why does this keep happening?

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Speaker 2: I mean, why does it keep happening that you have

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Speaker 2: your story every week like, hey, you know this this

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Speaker 2: rising young right wing influencer turns out to you know,

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Speaker 2: have all of these these all right, what white supremacist treats?

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Speaker 2: Why does this happen? It's like, hey, why, you know,

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Speaker 2: I've been swimming in this particular pond for so long?

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Speaker 2: Why am I wet?

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Speaker 1: That's true?

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Speaker 2: And unfortunately, so this is looking They're not all like this.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is still this is still a minority.

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Speaker 2: But there's a tolerance of it, and there's an escalation

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Speaker 2: of it, and you can watch it on a regular

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Speaker 2: basis I mean, I was just thinking. Today I did

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Speaker 2: a podcast with Ben Wittis from Larfare talking about Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump's latest attacks on Fawnie Willis. I'm sort of getting

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Speaker 2: ahead of ourselves here, but I mean, look, you know

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Speaker 2: that he's going to play the race card because she's

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Speaker 2: a black woman.

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Speaker 1: The newest Trump attack line is basically that Fawnie Willis

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Speaker 1: has somehow dated a member of a gang. I mean,

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Speaker 1: none of this is true. It's all like the kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff he said about Hillary Clinton, but it's very

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Speaker 1: sexist and also like very racist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and dated is a euphemism because that's not what

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Speaker 2: he's suggesting. I mean, he's suggesting that she was basically,

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Speaker 2: you know, having an affair with a gang leader. She

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Speaker 2: was prosecuting. On one level, you goya, this is Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump's going to attack all the people that come

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Speaker 2: out against him. But wait, you know, part of what

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Speaker 2: we're seeing now is that everybody needs a stronger and

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Speaker 2: stronger dopamine hit. The shock wears off, so you need,

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Speaker 2: let me switch, you know a metaphors once again. You

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Speaker 2: need the more intense crack.

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Speaker 1: You need to have the pure something.

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Speaker 2: So Donald Trump is ramping it up he's going after

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Speaker 2: her because she is black, because she is a woman,

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Speaker 2: and he is whipping up this frenzy implying that she

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Speaker 2: engaged in sexual misconduct with a gang leader. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's like all those you know, that constellation, and even

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Speaker 2: for Donald Trump, recognize that he keeps upping the ante

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Speaker 2: all the time. You know, you watch the social media accounts.

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Speaker 2: They're upping the ante all the time. The rhetoric becomes

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Speaker 2: more intense, it becomes more violent, it becomes more you know,

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Speaker 2: it's one thing to be hair on fire, then you

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Speaker 2: just keep setting your whole body on fire. This has mine.

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Speaker 2: This is real constant. But I don't want to be

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Speaker 2: the Cassandra that goes, hey, guys, guys, guys, you understand

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Speaker 2: where we're headed here. There are crazy people out there

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Speaker 2: with guns, like maybe this guy in Utah who listens

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Speaker 2: to all of this stuff and he's got all these

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Speaker 2: AK forty seven's and he hears that Joe Biden's gonna

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Speaker 2: come to town and he thinks, hey, I'm gonna blow

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden away. I'm gonna kill him, and I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: kill FBI Aidens if they come to my house. This

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Speaker 2: is not theoretical anymore. This is actually happening. We've had

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Speaker 2: January sixth, We've had people go into shopping malls in

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Speaker 2: Texas and kill people because they believe the great replacement theory.

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Speaker 2: We have people who go into synagogues and kill Jews

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Speaker 2: because they think that they are encouraging illegal immigration. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is happening. And Donald Trump looks at this and

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Speaker 2: goes this chaos and the fear that it engenders, I

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Speaker 2: can work with this, I can use this.

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Speaker 1: That's really horrifying. Thank you so much, Charlie, really appreciate you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Jocelyn Benson is Secretary of State the Great State of Michigan.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fast Politics. Secretary of State Benson, thank you

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Speaker 1: for having me.

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Speaker 3: I'm really excited and honored.

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Speaker 1: To be here. We're delighted to have you, and also,

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Speaker 1: more importantly, he is being a secretary of state of

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Speaker 1: a swing state in twenty twenty four, perhaps like the

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Speaker 1: most crucial job for the preservation of democracy. Yeah, it is.

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Speaker 3: I mean voters have the most crucial job, always in

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Speaker 3: preserving democracy, but in terms of a position to hold

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Speaker 3: where one person can have the greatest impact, either in

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Speaker 3: a positive or negative way around guarding democracy is it

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Speaker 3: has always been the chief election officers in the states,

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Speaker 3: particularly in battleground states, particularly in years like this where

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Speaker 3: democracy will be hanging in the balance and will be

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Speaker 3: directly impacted by the outcome of the elections and will

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Speaker 3: be directly threatened by many individuals and entities, including individuals

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Speaker 3: to likely be on the ballot.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about what that looks

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Speaker 1: like in Michigan. You've written a lot about this, and

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Speaker 1: you know, it's something I think I thought a lot

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Speaker 1: about in the midterms. In a way, right now we

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Speaker 1: have all of these swing states that have actually largely

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Speaker 1: pro democracy people in the important jobs. So how will

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Speaker 1: that affect things? And also what exactly are the nuts

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Speaker 1: and bolts of you protecting democracy here?

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Speaker 3: Well, we essentially have three roles. We have to build

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Speaker 3: the infrastructure in our states to ensure that the trains run,

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Speaker 3: that people can get their ballots, can return them, they

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Speaker 3: that they're counted, that the security provisions are in place.

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Speaker 3: That's priority number one. And then secondly, we have to

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Speaker 3: tell that story, educate voters about the nuts and bolts

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Speaker 3: are participating, and make sure everyone knows their options and

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Speaker 3: how to have faith in the rescist so the election

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Speaker 3: is an accurate reflection of the will of the people.

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Speaker 3: And then our third piece of that is countering misinformation

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Speaker 3: and anticipating proactively and dealing with it reactively in the

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Speaker 3: midst of making sure that voters can have the confidence

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Speaker 3: and the clarity as to how to participate and the

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Speaker 3: certainty that when they do participate, their vote will count

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Speaker 3: and that results will hold. So we've got the sort

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Speaker 3: of three pronged approach to our jobs. And certainly it's

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Speaker 3: important for people of integrity in battleground states, regardless of

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Speaker 3: your political party, to be in those roles. And you

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Speaker 3: also need a degree of competence because you've got to

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Speaker 3: weather these battles. And it's not enough anymore to simply

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Speaker 3: just run a good election. You have to not just

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Speaker 3: educate voters proactively, but reactively address the lies that are

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Speaker 3: out there and ensure they don't impact voter's ability to participate.

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Speaker 1: Michigan is a pretty exciting state. You have three women

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Speaker 1: really in charge there. I was hoping you could talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about what Attorney General Dana Nessel did

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the fake electors, because I think

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Speaker 1: that that really does it does actually affect people's confidence

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Speaker 1: when it comes to voting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean two things. I think certainly, it's important

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Speaker 3: to make sure when as there was in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 3: you have this actionable, coordinated effort to overturn a legitimate

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Speaker 3: presidential election, that there are consequences not just for the

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Speaker 3: election itself and what happened, but to ensure from a

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Speaker 3: preventative standpoint, it doesn't happen again. And then secondly, as

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Speaker 3: we see everything play on in the national level and

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Speaker 3: really start to understand I think as a country, the

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Speaker 3: depths to which people stooped to collectively, nationally coordinate an

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Speaker 3: effort to undermine the will of the people, none of

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Speaker 3: that would have actually come to fruition had they not

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Speaker 3: had people in the states actually executing the plan. And

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Speaker 3: so to seek consequences for those folks who made the

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Speaker 3: whims of the former president and his supporters at the

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Speaker 3: national level actionable in the battleground states is critical because

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Speaker 3: all of it was part of the broad coordinated effort

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Speaker 3: to overturn the will of the people, and there must

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Speaker 3: be consequences at the state and the local and the

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Speaker 3: federal level for all of it.

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Speaker 1: It is incredible that your state was one of these

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Speaker 1: six states where they were just going and literally steal

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Speaker 1: the bouts.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, It's something that began to be apparent to us

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Speaker 3: in the spring of twenty twenty as Trump's fire kind

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Speaker 3: of zoomed in on us, in particular myself, the AG

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Speaker 3: and the governor. I think in the span of one

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Speaker 3: week in May, he had mean tweeted all of us,

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Speaker 3: which I think he never fully grasped how that helped

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Speaker 3: us more than it hurt us ultimately in terms of

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Speaker 3: doing our job and getting attention on the work we

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Speaker 3: were doing to protect Michigan, to protect democracy. But that said,

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Speaker 3: it was really then where we began to see the

433
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 3: unique role that being a battleground state and that being

434
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 3: women running a battleground state was going to push us in.

435
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 3: And yet after the election, we were every day surprised

436
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 3: again and again it's just how far he and others

437
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 3: would go to keep escalating this losing strategy without any

438
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 3: evidence or any real winning opportunity at trying to overturn

439
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 3: these election results where there was not again a shred

440
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 3: of evidence that he had anything to base his objections on.

441
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: I mean, just sort of an incredible bit of Trump

442
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,399
Speaker 1: as as we've seen it. So I want to ask you,

443
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 1: now you have this crucial state, we're coming up into

444
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: this insane election, how is your communication with other secretaries

445
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: of state and are you guys read.

446
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 3: Been in near constant communication with the secretaries in other

447
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:03,199
Speaker 3: battleground states with Georgia Pencil, Wisconsin newly appointed secretary of

448
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,640
Speaker 3: state there, Nevada, and Arizona.

449
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: One of the.

450
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 3: Things that we didn't do, or that we did serendipitously,

451
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 3: perhaps too late, in twenty twenty was that coordination. I mean,

452
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 3: we talked in general about sharing best practices, but it

453
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 3: wasn't until after the election where we knew what was

454
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 3: happening in Michigan would impact what was happening in Pennsylvania,

455
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 3: and that georg Joe was getting the same calls that

456
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 3: we were getting. That the need for us to all

457
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 3: be talking and coordinating became really clear. So after that point,

458
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two actually became about ensuring we had the

459
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 3: team we needed and working together to make sure that

460
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 3: we did in these respective states. And so you saw

461
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 3: the election of secretaries of state really front and center

462
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 3: in that cycle, or the appointment of secretaries was the

463
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 3: case in Pennsylvania. And then now that we're here, we've

464
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 3: got our team, we are already talking regularly and sharing

465
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 3: even just you know, week to week, what is happening

466
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 3: in our states, what we're finding, what we're challenging, what

467
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 3: we're dealing with, because so there's far more in common

468
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: than not. And you know, for example, when all of

469
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 3: the clerks in my state get a Foier request for

470
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 3: pole book results, it's likely that the folks in other

471
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 3: states have gotten that same request, and so we work

472
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 3: together to figure out where it's coming from and what

473
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 3: the intent is behind it, as we you know, again

474
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 3: grapple with this common enemy against democracy that continues to

475
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:28,719
Speaker 3: be present in all of our states.

476
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: So can we have a two second conversation on Eric.

477
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 1: We're going to get real nerdy here.

478
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 3: Yeah.

479
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: Eric is Election Registration Information Center and it was sort

480
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: of the single best way to stop people voting more

481
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: than once. Right, explain to us. I would love like

482
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: your take on Eric, what it is and also why

483
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: Republicans are now furious with that.

484
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really a great and I mean it's an

485
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 3: unfortunate window into how misinformation. If a chief election officer

486
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 3: decides to respond to it and validate it can really

487
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,160
Speaker 3: harm democracy in a significant way. So ERIC is a

488
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 3: consortium of states that started about ten years ago where

489
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 3: we simply just shared information when a voter moved from

490
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 3: one state to another. If you are a part of ERIC,

491
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 3: shared that information in a very sort of both secure

492
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 3: but also highly accurate way, so that we could assist

493
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 3: that voter essentially in ending their voter registration at the

494
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 3: state they moved from and becoming reregistered in the state

495
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 3: they moved to. That was it, And we also worked

496
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 3: with the federal government so when people passed away or

497
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,719
Speaker 3: moved and filed with the US Postal Service that they

498
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 3: were moving, we got that information too, and we still do.

499
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 3: I don't mean to talk about it in past tense.

500
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 3: ERIC member states still have access to all of that information,

501
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 3: but it's not really clear. It looked like, I think

502
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 3: a sort of right wing blog began to attack ERIC.

503
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it was the Gateway Pundit in point

504
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: I don't like named, but go for it. It's but

505
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: I think it's worth just mentioning like they are sort

506
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 1: of one of the number one places where disinformation originates,

507
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 1: and it's also a favorite of the forty fifth President,

508
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 1: Donald Trump.

509
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 3: It's really extraordinary how when you have no interest in

510
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 3: the truth, there's no limit to what you can do

511
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 3: or say to harm the very fabric of who we

512
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 3: are his Americans in our democracy itself. And that's what

513
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 3: the Gateway Pundit has done. So that said, the story

514
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 3: first emerged with a one secretary of state in Louisiana

515
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: decided that he was going to lead gave ERIC as

516
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 3: a result of just a barrage of lies about it,

517
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 3: and as we peeled back the layers, it also appeared

518
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 3: that there were some secretaries in conservative states like Missouri

519
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 3: who started publicly saying they didn't want to be part

520
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 3: of ERIC all of a sudden because they didn't want

521
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 3: to have to register new voters through the system, which

522
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 3: is one of the parts of ERIC is you contact

523
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 3: all eligible but unregistered voters in your state and give

524
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 3: them information on how to register. It's a simple thing

525
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 3: which I think every state should feel responsible to do.

526
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 3: But that sort of became this sticking point where after

527
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 3: the misinformation was debunked, other secretaries started to hone in

528
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 3: on this requirement that is a part of ERIC. You

529
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 3: had to contact eligible but unregistered citizens and give them

530
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,360
Speaker 3: information on how to register to vote, and it became

531
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 3: a lightning rod for secretaries suddenly saying they didn't want

532
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 3: to do that anymore. The fact that they didn't want

533
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 3: to do it coming off of the highest turnout election

534
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty in our lifetime is notable, And the

535
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 3: fact that they didn't want to do it at a

536
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 3: time when our country is becoming increasingly diverse is notable.

537
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 3: I think part of the context here, but all of

538
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 3: that conflagrated with a lot of different other noise to

539
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 3: cause a lot of states to leave ERIC. And it's

540
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 3: unfortunate because every state that leaves is simply saying we

541
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 3: don't want to be part of this bipartisan interstate collaborative

542
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,239
Speaker 3: to help us collectively keep our voter roles accurate. And

543
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 3: now also say, there's some scuttle butt that perhaps the

544
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 3: conservative states that are leaving, and they're all led by

545
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 3: Republican secretaries, that they may be starting their own ERIC

546
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: like organization that will perhaps do the same thing. But

547
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 3: there's a lot of questions about how it's funded and

548
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 3: what it's actually going to do. So it's so an

549
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 3: evolving story, but the bottom line is Eric's going to

550
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 3: weather this moment, and as I'm optimistic that as we

551
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 3: get through the next few cycles, we'll start to see

552
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 3: it grow again in membership because it works. It's a

553
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 3: effective way of us all ensuring the accuracy of our

554
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 3: voter roles, and that truth, I believe, is going to

555
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 3: carry the day long after the secretaries who are currently

556
00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 3: responding to misinformation to get out of it have left

557
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: their roles and are replaced by people with greater integrity.

558
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: I mean, here you are doing these kind of very

559
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: nuts involved democracy stuff, and you have really one political

560
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: party that no longer believes in democracy. Not everyone, but

561
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: certainly a large margin. And you hear people on television

562
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: saying things, right wing pundent saying things like what's the

563
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: harm and wanting to overturn election? I mean, you know,

564
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: things like that. Are you hopeful that, I mean, Michigan

565
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: has actually done a lot of really interesting things and

566
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: is a state with real serious conservatism and trump Ism

567
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: and maga. I mean, are you hopeful that the country

568
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: is turning a corner?

569
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 3: I think voters will determine, particularly in this election, whether

570
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 3: we're going to turn a corner or not. And every

571
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 3: time voters have been given that choice, and they were

572
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 3: given it in twenty twenty two. They were to a

573
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 3: certain extent, given it in twenty twenty they have chosen

574
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 3: to turn the corner. And I believe that pro Democracy

575
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 3: Coalition is going to grow into the future and that

576
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: will actually emerge from this moment with a stronger and

577
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 3: healthier and more robust democracy than ever before. And that's

578
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 3: the subtext of what we're experiencing in Michigan because along

579
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 3: the same lines, at the same time that we've seen

580
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 3: these threats escalate, that we've seen these challenges emerge, that

581
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: we fought these battles in our state and in others,

582
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 3: we've also seen democracy get stronger because voters, voters are participating,

583
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 3: voters are voting to change their constitution to give themselves

584
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 3: a stronger and healthier election system where you can register

585
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 3: on election day and have early voting. So what we're

586
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 3: also seeing in this storm is a rainbow emerging of

587
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: when voters decide to be a part of this work,

588
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 3: democracy thriving. And as someone who's done this democracy work

589
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 3: my entire professional career, going back decades, we've always struggled

590
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: to get democracy and the importance of participating in elections

591
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 3: to be front and center in people's minds amidst the

592
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 3: political noise, and what we have now is a time

593
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 3: where it is and the more we can keep ensuring

594
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 3: that people understand the foundation of democracy leads to everything

595
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 3: else that we fight for. And that's also, frankly what

596
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 3: Michigan's demonstrating right now. The more we can have a

597
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 3: healthy democracy that will coincide with this robustly diverse country

598
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 3: that we are growing into and evolving into. And that

599
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 3: gives me a great deal of hope that in the

600
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 3: next decade, particularly with young voters stepping up and into

601
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: the fold and more diverse constituencies claiming their power, that

602
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 3: we will have a b right new day where democracy

603
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 3: is thriving, at the very least is more aligned with

604
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 3: the goals of its founders than it has been in

605
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 3: the past.

606
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: Michigan has been such a democratic success story in so

607
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: many ways, led by through women, led by three democratic women,

608
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: you know, even like Debbie Stabnaw stepping down and releasing

609
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: her seat, it was a very sort of organized, you know,

610
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: primary contest. It's still going, but there's been a lot

611
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: of like harmony and working together and a lot of

612
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: just sort of impress of state level staff. Is there

613
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: a lesson for Democrats to take from Michigan and from

614
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: the way you guys have worked together.

615
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the lesson is twofold one. Make it

616
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 3: easier to vote in your states and put people in

617
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 3: charge of elections. That will ensure people can have faith

618
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 3: in the process and expand democracy. I mean that really

619
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 3: what has preceded the policy changes in Michigan were changes

620
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 3: to how we elect and how we vote and how

621
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 3: we draw our districts. And that was the game changer.

622
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 3: And I think when you look at states even like

623
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 3: Mississippi or Missouri, or states that seem very deep red,

624
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: or Ohio, and what Ohio certainly has shown is that

625
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 3: when voters have greater access to their own power to

626
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 3: govern and to hold folks accountable and to elect people

627
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 3: who reflect their values, that's the game changer. And so

628
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 3: you know, to me, Michigan went to a state where

629
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 3: we saw you know, thirty to eight percent turnout in

630
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 3: past midterm elections to a state where we see sixty

631
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 3: percent turnout and seventy percent turnout in elections, and that

632
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: really is the game changer. And it's gratifying for those

633
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 3: of us who believe in democracy. We're like, oh, and

634
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 3: more people are voting, you actually get a government that's

635
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:17,760
Speaker 3: more responsive and more effective and works better than before.

636
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 3: And so that to me is the lesson and certainly

637
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 3: the role that women have played and that people of

638
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 3: color are playing as well in leading our state right now.

639
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 3: It shows us also that when you open leadership to everyone,

640
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 3: when anyone can run for office who has a story

641
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: to tell on a contribution to make, then and when

642
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 3: you have a more diverse governing coalition at the helm,

643
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 3: you can get a lot of things done in a

644
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 3: way that makes things better for everyone, regardless of whether

645
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 3: they're a Democrat, Independent, or Republican.

646
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Secretary of State Benson for joining us,

647
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: and really appreciate thank you for taking the time. My

648
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: pleasure honored to be here. Thank you for having me. Hi.

649
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: It's Mollie and I am wildly excited that for the

650
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: first time, Fast Politics, the show you're listening to right now,

651
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: is going to have merch for sale over at shop

652
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653
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654
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655
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656
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657
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 1: at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com. Thanks for your support.

658
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: Mark Joseph Stern is a legal analyst and Supreme Court

659
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: correspondent for Slate magazine. Welcome to Fast Politics.

660
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,239
Speaker 4: Mark, thank you so much for having me. Thrilled to

661
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 4: be here.

662
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: Well, we're very excited to have you, and we're going

663
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: to start by talking about everyone's favorite, Amy Koney Barrett.

664
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: Did I pronounce her name right? I don't even care?

665
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: Fuck it Amy Coney.

666
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 4: It's Amy Coney Barrett, that's right, Like, yeah, she I refused,

667
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 4: I will say, I refuse to call her ACB.

668
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:28,560
Speaker 5: Yes, I just I can't bear it, right, I mean,

669
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 5: as soon as she was nominated, I remember vividly Republicans

670
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 5: were trolling liberals with the notorious ACB shirts, which then

671
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 5: became like the contagious ACB after the super spreader White

672
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 5: House event.

673
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 4: But it's like Kaitanji Brown Jackson gets to be KBJ.

674
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 4: But Barrett has certainly not earned the three letter thing

675
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,280
Speaker 4: yet and probably never.

676
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: Will, except and again we're never going to say anything

677
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: nice about her, because really she does suck. She made

678
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: this very weird and we need to talk about it.

679
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: So I want you to give us a little background

680
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: on this because it's a Supreme Court decision coming down

681
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: in August, which is not when we're used to them

682
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: coming down. So explain to us what the fuck is

683
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: going on.

684
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is the famous shadow dockets, which listeners

685
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 4: may have heard of. This all happened in the shadows,

686
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 4: not on the Court's regular merits docket, but all as

687
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 4: an emergency application. So that means that one party in

688
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 4: this case, the federal government, went to the Supreme Court

689
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 4: and said, something has gone horribly awry in the lower

690
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 4: courts and we need you to fix it. And it's

691
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 4: such an emergency that we can't wait for weeks or

692
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 4: months or years. You need to do it now. And

693
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 4: so that is why the Court acted now. It handed

694
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 4: down this order, but notably did not produce any opinions

695
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 4: either a majority opinion, concurrences, dissents. Nobody wrote anything. So

696
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 4: we're going to have to kind of guess as to

697
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 4: the motivations of the justices here.

698
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: Remember, or that the shadow docket has dealt with lots

699
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: of stuff it's really not supposed to deal with. Oh yeah, right.

700
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 1: I mean there's sort of the hallmark of this Kavanaugh Court,

701
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: if that's what it's called now, which I kind of

702
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: think it is, is that they take stuff like Roe v.

703
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 1: Wade and put it on the shadow docket, right like.

704
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,800
Speaker 4: SBA totally and also a bunch of really important COVID

705
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 4: cases involving religious liberty and the closure of churches. And

706
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 4: you know, I think the important thing to remember about

707
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 4: those crazy times is that the court was regularly changing

708
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 4: the law over the shadow docket. So the court, you know,

709
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 4: in the SBA case, allowed Texas to ban abortions at

710
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 4: six weeks before it had formally overturned Roe v. Wade

711
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 4: and so essentially use the shadow docket to overturn fifty

712
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 4: years a precent. That is an abuse of the shadow docket.

713
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 4: But there are also instances in which a crazy District

714
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 4: Court judge, usually although not always appointed by Donald Trump

715
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 4: issue is an opinion that's way the hell out there,

716
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 4: that changes the law in a way that is alarming

717
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 4: and radical, and inevitably the Fifth Circuit, which is the

718
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 4: most conservative circuit Court of Appeals in this country covers Texas, Louisiana,

719
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 4: and Mississippi allows that to happen because the Fifth Circuit

720
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 4: is nuts. And so this was one of those situations

721
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 4: where it's not really an abuse of the shadow docket

722
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 4: because what the court did essentially was intervened to keep

723
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 4: the law where it is and to halt this way

724
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 4: out of line rogue decision that had come down some

725
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 4: below or form.

726
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,919
Speaker 1: Right, let's talk about this decision. The decision is five

727
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: to four. You can't make ghost guns, right.

728
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 4: So the Biden administration is very careful about this. They

729
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 4: want you to know that you can make all the

730
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 4: ghost guns that you want, Molly. You are free as

731
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 4: an American citizen to purchase and assemble ghost guns, but

732
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 4: you you have to go through an authorized firearms dealer,

733
00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 4: and the authorized dealer has to follow certain federal laws,

734
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 4: including a mandatory background check and ensuring that there is

735
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 4: a serial number on the weapon and keeping certain records

736
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 4: so that if it's used in a crime, then the

737
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 4: government has some chance of tracking it and you know,

738
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 4: finding the person who committed the crime. The problem with

739
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 4: ghost guns is that as they have been sold up

740
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 4: until basically now none of those rules apply. You know,

741
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 4: all of the federal restrictions on firearms, and there are

742
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 4: only a few, like there are very very few. It's

743
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 4: just like background checks and serrical numbers, basically, but those

744
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 4: were not being followed because what ghost gun sellers did

745
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 4: was sell these kits. And I'm using air quotes here

746
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 4: because it is essentially like an almost entirely finished gun

747
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 4: and you just have to like screw on one last piece.

748
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 4: And they claim that because that was not a true

749
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 4: firearm and that the user had to spend twenty minutes

750
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 4: watching a YouTube video to finish putting it together, that

751
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 4: they were exempt from all of these various laws. And

752
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 4: that is what I think led to the proliferation of

753
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 4: ghost guns and specifically their use in crime. Fewer than

754
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 4: one percent of ghost guns have been tracked. They are

755
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 4: essentially untraceable, and they are right now the favored gun

756
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 4: of criminals who want to use firearms to commit crimes

757
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 4: and murders because they have this great benefit that you

758
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 4: can buy it with a prepaid debit card that you

759
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 4: get at seven to eleven. You don't have to show

760
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 4: any ID, you don't have to undergo any background check,

761
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 4: and if you have access to YouTube, you can make

762
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 4: this weapon and use it to murder someone in less

763
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 4: than an hour did, just as.

764
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: Handmaid and Hack. Did she in fact have a reasonable

765
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 1: thought explain?

766
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's what happened. So in twenty twenty two,

767
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 4: the Biden administration and specifically ATF issued a new rule

768
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 4: that essentially said ghost guns count as firearms under federal law,

769
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 4: and that means they have to be sold by licensed

770
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 4: firearm dealers and they have to go through the same

771
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 4: very minimal process that all gun purchases do under federal law,

772
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 4: like the background check and whatever. That was pretty reasonable

773
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 4: because the statuted issue here says that a firearm is

774
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 4: either an assembled weapon or a series of parts that

775
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 4: may readily be converted into a weapon, and that is

776
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 4: a perfect description of what a ghost gun is. I mean,

777
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 4: you get the kit, it's a series of parts, you

778
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 4: convert them into a finished gun, and then you shoot someone.

779
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,279
Speaker 4: And so it was quite sensible, I think for the

780
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 4: Biden administration to come in and say, look, this is

781
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 4: what the law requires, and we're going to start requiring

782
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 4: that ghost gun dealers go through these processes and a

783
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 4: federal district judge in Texas named rit O'Connor issued what

784
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 4: we call nationwide vacator, essentially a fifty state bar on

785
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 4: this rule, and said it's illegal, it's totally beyond the

786
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 4: president's authority, and I'm blocking it all across the country.

787
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 4: And the Fifth Circuit agreed with O'Connor and kept that

788
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 4: block in place, and so the case came up to

789
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 4: the Supreme Court.

790
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: So this was a Federalist Society judge.

791
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 4: Obviously, this was a yes, one of the worst federalist

792
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 4: scited judges. So you may remember rit O'Connor is the

793
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 4: one who tried to strike down the entirety of Obamacare

794
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:30,280
Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen.

795
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, so yes. As much as we like George

796
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 1: Conway personally, this is likely a friend of his.

797
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 4: This is probably a good drinking buddy. They have brandy

798
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 4: after dinner. But rit O'Connor is a nutjob. And in

799
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 4: addition to trying to strike down all of Obamacare, which

800
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 4: got reversed seven to two at the Supreme Court. By

801
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 4: the way, even Clarence Thomas said that O'Connor was wrong.

802
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:51,279
Speaker 5: He is.

803
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 4: He has done a bunch of other crazy stuff like

804
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 4: anti vax stuff like very far reaching anti LGBTQ stuff.

805
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 4: He's a bad judge. And so as this case came

806
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 4: up to the Fifth Circuit, it was like, of course,

807
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 4: the Fifth circuit's also crazy, they're going to uphold Rite O'Connor.

808
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 4: That leaves the question to the Supreme Court, well, do

809
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 4: we step in. Do we go through the shadow docket

810
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 4: to say rit O'Connor, you need to go to time

811
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 4: out because the adults are back in the room. Or

812
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 4: do we just let the lower courts continue to go

813
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,440
Speaker 4: hog wild and allow the proliferation of ghost guns to

814
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 4: continue apace and basically be single handedly responsible for thousands

815
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 4: more ghost guns being sold without any kind of licensure,

816
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 4: background check or anything. That was the question for the court. Amazing,

817
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 4: the Supreme Court ended up issuing an order by a

818
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 4: five to four vote that put rite O'Connor on hold

819
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 4: and allowed the ghost gun rule to take effect and

820
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 4: said basically, Biden administration atf you guys are allowed to

821
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 4: start restricting the sale of ghost guns while this case

822
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,200
Speaker 4: continues through the lower courts. Again, no opinions, so we

823
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 4: don't know exactly what happened. But Amy Cony, Barrett and

824
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 4: John Roberts joined the three liberals to create a majority,

825
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 4: and Thomas Alito, Gorsich, and Kavanaugh all dissented. And that

826
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 4: was a real surprise because Kavanaugh is the one who's

827
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 4: kind of suggested in the past that he's not a

828
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 4: Second Amendment maximalist, that he might agree with some reasonable

829
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 4: limitations on firearms, but that was all absent from this case.

830
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 4: He was gung ho, it seems, about getting ghost guns

831
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 4: out onto the streets and into the hands of criminals.

832
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 4: So I think Barrett in this particular instance, did have

833
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 4: a thought that was more judicial than political or personal

834
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 4: or ideological. You know, she seems to have believed that

835
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 4: the Biden administration got this one right. She's also, and

836
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 4: I have to give her a little bit of credit

837
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 4: for this, she has expressed a lot of skepticism toward

838
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 4: these single judge orders that apply nationwide that we've all

839
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 4: become so familiar with. Right when one judge issues this

840
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 4: decision that's universal, that applies to everyone everywhere, And she

841
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 4: has suggested that those are not actually legal, that they're

842
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 4: not authorized under the Constitution or by Congress. And so

843
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 4: it may also have been that she wanted to send

844
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 4: a message that she's not going to continue entertaining these

845
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 4: sweeping orders that purport to cover the entire country when

846
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 4: that's not a power that judges have.

847
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 5: So this was.

848
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 4: An interesting moment for those of us who follow Barrett closely.

849
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 4: She's never ever before joined with the Chief and the

850
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 4: three liberals to create a five four majority. This was

851
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 4: a novel coalition. And I guess if you're like really

852
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 4: desperate to look for optimism about the Supreme Court, like

853
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 4: this would be the place to do it, because she's

854
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 4: acting like a real judge and not like a partisan have.

855
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, let us never give her too much or really

856
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 1: any credit, but that is still pretty interesting. So I

857
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: want to talk to you about some of the other

858
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: shit that's gone down. We have this pretty interesting blowback

859
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 1: to the overturning of Row, which is that in Wiscon,

860
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 1: in this very divided state, by a large margin, they

861
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 1: elected a judge named Judge Janet. Talk to us about

862
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: Judge Janet. I want to mispronounce her last name too.

863
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: It's pro to say. It's oh easy, it rolls off

864
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: the tongue. It's now Justice Janet. Yes, she's got a promotion. Yes,

865
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: but let's talk about Justice Janet because this was a

866
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 1: real upset for Republicans and we drank their tears. But

867
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: it has really important meaning and let's talk about it.

868
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, it absolutely does. So, I mean to the point

869
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 4: about abortion that has been such a topic of conversation

870
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 4: around Wisconsin. I think very soon Justice Janet will probably

871
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 4: cast the decisive vote that blocks Wisconsin's abortion ban and

872
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 4: restores legal abortion in the states and holds that this

873
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,879
Speaker 4: very very old law that was passed exclusively by white men,

874
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 4: like more than one hundred years ago is no longer

875
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 4: good law, and that people are allowed to exercise reproductive freedom.

876
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 4: So that's really great. But I actually think there's like

877
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 4: an even more fundamental problem that she's eager to tackle here,

878
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 4: which is the fact that wis consent is no longer

879
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 4: really a democracy in any sense of the term. So,

880
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 4: you know, Wisconsin Republicans in twenty ten drew the most

881
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 4: egregious partisan gerrymander that has ever existed, and they managed

882
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 4: to preserve it with the help of the Wisconsin Supreme

883
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 4: Court in twenty twenty because the court at that time

884
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 4: had a conservative majority, and the day after Justice Janet

885
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 4: joined at the beginning of August and flipped the court

886
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 4: and give it a liberal majority. Voting rights advocates filed

887
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 4: a lawsuit against that jerrymander and argued that that Wisconsin

888
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 4: legislature is so chopped up and horribly jerrymandered that it

889
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 4: violates various provisions of the state constitution that guarantee the

890
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 4: equal vote of every citizen, that guarantee freedom of association, expression,

891
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 4: all of these kind of bedrock rights that political gerrymanders

892
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 4: target by saying, well, if you vote for Democrats, then

893
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 4: your vote's going to count for less. We're going to

894
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 4: you know, stick you in this district where you'll never

895
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 4: be able to elect your preferred rep. And so, you know,

896
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 4: when the court tackles that, and it's going to happen

897
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 4: soon because the case is already there. That I think

898
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 4: helps to restore actual democratic rule to Wisconsin, you know,

899
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 4: make it a representational democracy again for the first time

900
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 4: in more than a decade. And at that point, we

901
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 4: won't have to rely on Justice Janet to do things

902
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 4: like overturn an abortion ban, because if the state legislature

903
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 4: reflects the will of the people, it will either be

904
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 4: very closely divided or democratic leaning. Because Wisconsin in recent

905
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,399
Speaker 4: years has been either in the center or a little

906
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 4: bit to the left, and so that's like a big

907
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 4: difference I think between Republican and democratic judges in some sense,

908
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 4: Like what Justice Janet wants to do is return a

909
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 4: lot of these issues to the democratic process and you know,

910
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 4: let the people work them out. What some Republican justices

911
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 4: on that very same court want to do is prevent

912
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 4: the people from ever really exercising their rights through representative

913
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 4: democracy because they're going to be toiling under a partisan

914
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 4: gerrymander forever. And that is like a huge dispute in

915
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,640
Speaker 4: the legal world, and Wisconsin is coming out very much

916
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 4: on the right side of it at this moment.

917
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 1: Unbelievable, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Like, whoever thought those guys would

918
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: be leading democracy. Let's talk for a minute about Trump's

919
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: legal troubles. Since you are a legal scholar of a sort, right,

920
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: we're going to get a fourth indictment, maybe around the

921
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:52,439
Speaker 1: same time as the GOP first debate, I mean, what

922
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,399
Speaker 1: the fuck? What the fuck?

923
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 4: Indeed, I've said all along, I think the New York

924
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 4: indictment is weak. I'm not optimistic that that one's going

925
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 4: to even get to a jury trial. I think the

926
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 4: way that the district attorney tried to bootstrap this election

927
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 4: crime onto a misdemeanor to get it into a felony

928
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,600
Speaker 4: range is just very legally questionable.

929
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,920
Speaker 1: Right, And it's also a state charge that somehow then

930
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: would have to become a federal charge.

931
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, exactly. You know, the accusation is that he

932
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 4: violated federal campaign election laws and that the DA can

933
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 4: like kind of couple that with a violation of state

934
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 4: business records laws and magically transmography it into a felony

935
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 4: under New York law. I'm not convinced. I would love

936
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 4: to be convinced. I've read the best arguments.

937
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 1: I'm not convinced by the way. He had a good case.

938
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: He just decided not to go with that.

939
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 4: Alvin Bragg did.

940
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: Alvin Bragg had the lying about the valuation of his

941
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: property's case, which I've known people to go to jail for,

942
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: and Alvin Bragg decided not to go for it. And

943
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,759
Speaker 1: then the political bullback was such that he went for

944
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 1: this lesser case.

945
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 4: I think that's exactly right. And there was blowback within

946
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,320
Speaker 4: his own office too, and that pressured him to figure

947
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:08,879
Speaker 4: out a way to bring charges, and he just sort

948
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 4: of brought the wrong ones. I think the mar Alago

949
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 4: classified documents case is clearly the strongest on the law

950
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,759
Speaker 4: and on the facts, Like you not only have the

951
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 4: obvious theft of these classified documents, which is in itself

952
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 4: a crime, but you have this totally blundering obstruction of

953
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 4: the resulting investigation into the theft of these documents, and

954
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:36,240
Speaker 4: this broader conspiracy with at least two other people to

955
00:52:36,280 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 4: try to cover up the obstruction itself. You know, we've

956
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 4: got apparently CCTV footage of people like secretly moving these

957
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 4: documents out of the storage room where the federal agents

958
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 4: are going to be tomorrow to look through them like that.

959
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 4: You know, this was a crime where Trump got caught

960
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 4: red handed. But the problem, of course, is that it's

961
00:52:55,960 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 4: landed in the courtroom of Judge Eileen Cannon, who is

962
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 4: is either maliciously partisan or extremely stupid or both. I

963
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 4: really don't know which is which it is. But she

964
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 4: already at a previous stage of this case ran interference

965
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 4: for Trump, tried to halt the early stages of the

966
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 4: criminal investigation into the classified documents at mar Lago got

967
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 4: brutally reversed at the Conservative Eleventh Circuit twice, which accused

968
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,399
Speaker 4: her of creating different rules for Trump than everybody else,

969
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,920
Speaker 4: which is exactly what she did. And now she's handling

970
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 4: the rest of the case, and she's already suggested that

971
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 4: she's going to be pretty much in the tank for

972
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 4: Trump and is forcing federal prosecutors to jump through hoops

973
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 4: they should not have to jump through, delaying the schedule

974
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 4: for no good reason. And so you know, if we

975
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 4: assume the Canon is going to kind of throw this case,

976
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 4: which a trial judge really can, that leaves us with

977
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 4: the January fifth prosecution here in the district, and that

978
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 4: has landed before brilliant Judge Tanya Chuckkin. She's an Obama

979
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 4: appoint judge. Cannon is, of course a Donald Trump appointee.

980
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 4: Chuckin is like a judge's judge, widely respected. I think

981
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 4: that these charges are strong and legally grounded. But I

982
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 4: also think the Republicans have done a good job trying

983
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 4: to tend that they are just prosecution of political speech.

984
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 4: That's bs to be clear, like that is absolutely not

985
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 4: what's going on here. But I am worried about the

986
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:30,880
Speaker 4: ways that Republicans can manipulate the January sixth case to

987
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 4: try to paint Trump as a martyr who's facing this

988
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 4: witch hunt. Again, that's not the case, but that's what

989
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 4: they're already trying to do. And that's why I'm I

990
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 4: don't know, I'm still kind of worried, because ideally, you

991
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 4: could just nail him on this massive criminal conspiracy at

992
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 4: mar A Lago to trick the government, and that case

993
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 4: has landed before maybe the dumbest judge in the history

994
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 4: of the federal judiciary.

995
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,719
Speaker 1: I love the dumbest judge in the history of the

996
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: federal judiciary, though. I think kas Merrick would like a word.

997
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,359
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. I hope you'll

998
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 1: come back.

999
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks anytime.

1000
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:16,720
Speaker 6: Molly, no moment, Jesse Cannon, Molly Jung Fast that Matt

1001
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:20,240
Speaker 6: Gate's always up to something to defend mister Trump.

1002
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: What do you see in you know, you may remember

1003
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: Matt Gates of being under FBI investigation for a long time.

1004
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 1: He's cooked up a plan to immunize Trump to get

1005
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 1: him off the hook for the federal charges he faces again.

1006
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: It all sounds like hooey to me. That's it for

1007
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:46,040
Speaker 1: this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday

1008
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes

1009
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard,

1010
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

1011
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:57,720
Speaker 1: And again, thanks for listening.