1 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stephane. 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: Ever told you, but actually I heart radio. Would you 3 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: describe yourself as modest, Samantha, I will say that I'm 4 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: very self conscious, so it's not necessarily about modesty but insecurity. 5 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: But I think overall, yes, my dress is typically modest. Yeah, 6 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: I probably am. I went to your period where I 7 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: was really trying to push out of my comfort zone 8 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: and I was gonna like crop tops, short shorts, and 9 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: I look back on that period fondly, But the whole time, 10 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: I was like so tense. When I did, I felt 11 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: so nervous and uncomfortable, and I was like constantly straightening 12 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: things out, wondering what I looks like. So I I did. 13 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,639 Speaker 1: I did struggle with that, and when I was growing up, 14 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: it was very difficult for me to go outside of 15 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: that boundary. Will Like my grandmother used to say, you 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: have an excellent figure, and it would like bring me 17 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: to tears since I was embarrassed. Yes, yes, but because 18 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 1: we were recently talking about the editing of yearbooks to 19 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: get rid of any sign of cleavage or shoulder, it's 20 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: just something I've been thinking about about that kind of 21 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: line where you can't win of either yeah, you're to 22 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: modest and prude or the opposite of that, and and 23 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: how there is this morality attached to modesty. But it 24 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: also made me think about forever ago, and we did 25 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: that many where we read the sex words how to 26 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: write sexy. Modesty is a word that is often used 27 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: for like nudity, like you cover your modesty or you 28 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: hide your modesty, which always kind of cracked me up. 29 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: It does seem really official. Yeah, it's just to me, 30 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: it feels like another example of how we're so uncomfortable 31 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: talking about sex. Yes, you gotta keep your modesty covered, 32 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: and it's usually typically always referred to for women. Yes, yes, Well, 33 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: we wanted to bring back this plastic episode looking into 34 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: the history of of modesty, So please enjoy. Welcome to 35 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: Stuff Mom Never Told You from how stup works dot com. Hello, 36 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, 37 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: and today on the show, we're talking about modesty. And 38 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: before we get into the research that we found, we 39 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: first wanted to share what some of you think about 40 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: this issue of modesty. Um As we were researching, we 41 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: took to the Stuff Mom Never Told you Facebook page 42 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: and said, hey, what what are your thoughts on this 43 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: issue about telling girls to cover up? Um, about this 44 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 1: so called modesty movement taking place, and here are just 45 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: some samples of what some of you had to say. Yeah, 46 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: I have a note here from Elise, who brings up 47 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: weather and body image all in one fell swoop. She 48 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: says modesty is just a social construct. There's nothing inherently 49 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,639 Speaker 1: wrong with bare skin. It is simply too hot where 50 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: I live to be fully covered all the time, and 51 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: I hate the double standard that allows men to go 52 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: shirtless while women cannot. That said, I personally tend to 53 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: wear a bit more clothing because society has successfully made 54 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: me ashamed of my five pounds overweight body. Caitlin brought 55 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: up something that a number of women also mentioned, which 56 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: is the issue of boobs. Especially if you have ample boobs, 57 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: it can be harder to adhere to certain modesty standards, 58 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: So Caitlin writes, I personally choose to dress more modestly. 59 00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: I'm a bigger girl with a quote ample bosom, so 60 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: even the less revealing outfits can make me look a 61 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: him endowed. I have zero problem with women my size 62 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: or any size, wearing whatever they feel comfortable in. Though, 63 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: one of my dear friends, who is a little smaller 64 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: than me but still curvy, wears things that are so 65 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: low cut they would make me blush, but they look 66 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: amazing on her and she has the confidence to that 67 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,280 Speaker 1: is the key. Yeah, and Jamie adds to this, talking 68 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: about how difficult it is to wear a skirt when 69 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: you are above average height. She says, even when I 70 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: stick with a knee length skirt, I've been accused of 71 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: showing too much. This is in the professional setting where 72 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: others are wearing much shorter skirts. Plus I'm on the 73 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: busty side, so I can't win either way. Yeah, as 74 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: a five nine almost five tin woman, I can definitely 75 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: empathize with the leg length issue. Jennifer McPherson, though, made 76 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 1: me laugh with her comment. Maybe this is why in 77 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: all of the quote future movies everyone pretty much just 78 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: wears the same jumpsuit problem solved. I used to have 79 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 1: a jumpsuit. I would totally wear a jumpsuit if a 80 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: it wasn't challenging to find one that fit because I 81 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,359 Speaker 1: have a super long torso, and b if I could 82 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: actually pull off a jumpsuit, well yeah, no, mine was 83 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: definitely not like a fashion jumpsuit. Mine was part of 84 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: my April O'Neil Halloween costume. It was bright yellow. So 85 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: if that's if that's in in the post apocalyptic future, 86 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 1: then I'm all set and yeah, you're ready, You're ahead 87 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: of the curve. Well. I do think one thing that 88 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: was interesting about all of the comments, because there were 89 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: a lot of them in response to that question about modesty, 90 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: was how varied everyone's opinions were. We had a lot 91 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: of women firmly in the camp of modest as hottests, 92 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: and other women saying, you know, modesty is basically a 93 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: social construct, and other women saying, you know what, let's 94 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: just take all of our clothes off because this is ridiculous. 95 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: What's what's your opinion? Do you feel like people should 96 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: sew a certain line or just dress however makes them happy, 97 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: even if that's just like a big bikini top. What 98 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: do you think do you think? I think that there 99 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: are certain situations that call for certain types of outfits. Obviously, 100 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: if you want to wear a bikini top to a 101 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: job interview, you're probably not going to get that job, 102 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: unless you're interviewing for a lifeguard position or something like that. 103 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: And I'm all for women dressing in a way that 104 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: makes them feel comfortable and confident, whether that is a 105 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: turtleneck and a floor link skirt or a crop top 106 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,799 Speaker 1: and short shorts. Um. I think what's maybe more important, 107 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: and what we'll get into more in the podcast, is 108 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: just checking ourselves on the way that we talk about modesty, 109 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: specifically to girls, Because even though there might be a 110 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: lot of good intentions with talking to girls about the 111 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: importance of covering them up, covering themselves up, and you know, 112 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: leaving things to the imagination, a lot of it is 113 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: often just framed as ultimately making sure that they are 114 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: appealing sexually. Two men. Right, what do you think, Caroline? 115 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I I share, I share your opinion. I 116 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: think there's a time and a place for everything. I'm 117 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: not going to wear my pajama shirt to a job interview, 118 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: you know, or a tank top because I do have uh, 119 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: I am blessed in the bubular area, and so a 120 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: shirt that I might wear and find comfortable could actually 121 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: look to some people inappropriate in the workplace. Yeah, that's 122 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: the thing. Once we get into the lines of like 123 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: what is professional, that's when it does get hard because 124 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: you can say I should be able to wear whatever 125 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: I want. But then but also yes, like I I 126 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: hear that statement, and then I also think, well, there's 127 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: the whole argument and modesty, which will we will obviously 128 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: get into in this podcast talking about like, uh, covering 129 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: up for men or around men um, but also with 130 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: my clear leavage, I also want you looking at my face, 131 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: you know. So it's not even so much that I'm like, 132 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: I better protect myself by covering up. It's more like 133 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: I just don't want my boobs to be an issue 134 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: in every conversation I have. But is that then a 135 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: double standard if for someone like me who cleavage is 136 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,679 Speaker 1: rarely an issue because it's mostly invisible, in which case 137 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 1: I could wear the lower cut top to the office 138 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: and people would probably still be looking me in the eye, 139 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:32,599 Speaker 1: even though as a tall woman, if I'm wearing he 140 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: might be face to face with my boobs. But you 141 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 1: know what I mean, does that ever feel like a 142 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: frustrating double standard that if you are a more curvacious woman, 143 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: whether it is in the boobular region which is the 144 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: scientific term for it, or a little lower down in 145 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: the butler region, that issue becomes a lot more challenging 146 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: because it's like, well, then, what what am I supposed 147 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 1: to wear? Do I have to just cover up my 148 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: entire figure in order to be d A appropriate? I know, 149 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: I I I hate it. Yeah, I mean I will 150 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,719 Speaker 1: it being all of it, the conversation about it, the 151 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: fact that we have to work so hard every morning 152 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: to pick out something from our closet to go to 153 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:15,719 Speaker 1: work that's not in a pro And I don't mean 154 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: like Kristen and I going to work, I just mean 155 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: work in general. Yeah, you know, like it's it's such 156 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: a challenge, and women are told from the time they're 157 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: itty biddy little kids that they have to watch what 158 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: they wear and and watch how they dress around people, 159 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: especially boys and men. Yeah, and this entire head scratching 160 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: issue of how do we even talk about it? How 161 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: do we hash all this out? Is why we wanted 162 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: to do this episode in the first place, because clearly, 163 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: like I said, judging by the outpouring of Facebook commentary, 164 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: this is something that a lot of other women have 165 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: dealt with as well. So let's go way, way way 166 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 1: back in time. And first of all, I'll say that 167 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: when it comes to this very brief historical snapshot of modesty. 168 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: We're not really going to get very much into religion. Yeah, 169 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: that could be a whole other topic unto itself. There 170 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: were a lot of women on Facebook who brought up 171 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: things like, you know, veiling, traditional veiling in Islam, also 172 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: head covering in Judaism and even in some Christian denominations. 173 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: But that's not really what we want to get at. Yeah, 174 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: we're we're kind of gonna be focusing more in this 175 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: episode on the sniping that goes on between and among women, 176 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: more more so in a secular kind of viewpoint. Yeah, 177 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: not not to say that there aren't certainly religious undertones 178 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 1: to a lot of aspects of what is referred to 179 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: as the modesty movement. In my personal upbringing in an 180 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: Evangelical Christian home, modesty was a huge thing that was 181 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: always talked about. Um. But yeah, we're going to stick 182 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: to the more secular And we found this paper called 183 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: let Modesty Be Her Reignment by Tamina Tariq from two 184 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: thousand and She talks about the tradition of veiling in 185 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: the pre Christian Classical era, so focusing on like fourth 186 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: and third centuries BC, And it turns out that for 187 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: well to do women. In ancient Greece and Rome, veiling 188 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: or covering their hair was a way of a transporting 189 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: the private domestic space or the proper place for women 190 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: into the public, and doing so in a way that 191 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: protected the honor of her male guardians or father's husband's brothers, 192 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: and finally outwardly symbolizing the value of her virginity. I 193 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: think it's interesting that from the get go you have 194 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: something that a woman wears being tied into the honor 195 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: of a man that she is with um. But at 196 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: also this this isn't necessarily all women in these cultures. 197 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: People who were in the lower classes, including slaves and 198 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: peasants and others deemed inferior, would not have veiled their 199 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: hair because nobody cared whether they were of honor or 200 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: whether they were virgins. But if he were a woman 201 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: of means, you would certainly cover your hair with different 202 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: kinds of head coverings at the time that were called 203 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: faros him and nations and pep loose, and all of 204 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: this was really to prevent the possibility of men looking 205 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: at the sensualized parts of her body, because in addition 206 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: to veiling, she would also wear what we would think 207 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: of is very modest clothing, but it was important that 208 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: the hair also be covered because that was also a 209 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: highly sensualized part and still is of the female body. 210 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: And by essentially blocking those off from view, the thought was, well, 211 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: then that would lower the chances of him fantasizing about her, 212 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: which even just in the fantasy realm, would demean her. Well, now, Kristen, 213 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: you wrote about this whole hair issue on stuff I 214 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: Never told you dot com, and I think it's interesting 215 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: to bring up why hair was so sexualized during this time. Yeah, 216 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: if you go back to ancient Greece, Hippocrates, for instance, 217 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: had this theory that when men and women had sexual 218 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: intercourse that his semen would actually be directed into a 219 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: woman's hair. So our long flowing hair is just a 220 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: mass of semen magnets and that, and so in that way, 221 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: women's hair was seen as a symbolic extension of our genitalia. 222 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: That is just so weird and like the opposite of 223 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: Okham's razor, Like why is semen filling up your hair? 224 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: Like the simplest explanation for I don't know, because where 225 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 1: else would it go? I guess I needed us that 226 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: need at someplace, Yes, where else would it else couldn't 227 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: go But this is also side note, and I feel 228 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: like we need to do a whole podcast on this 229 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: because I want to learn more. This also was very 230 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: much linked to the tradition of a bride wearing a 231 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: veil because she, you know, has her face covered by 232 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: the veil. She's walking down the aisle, and in that way, 233 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: her sexuality is still intact and preserved, but then broken 234 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: when the husband lifts it up just to gaze on her. 235 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: It was the power of the male gaze. They got 236 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 1: the power of the mail gaze all the way back 237 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: in ancient Greece and Rome. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, 238 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: we already talked about how women would wear headcoverings to 239 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 1: go out to protect their honor and everything when they 240 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: went out of the house, to extend that private sphere 241 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: into public. And so why wearing that veil. The bride 242 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: is being protected if she's handed off from the one 243 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 1: man in her life to the other man in her life. Well, 244 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: in addition to us walking around with these uh all 245 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: these seamen magnets on our head a k air hair, 246 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: this was also a time when women were people were 247 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: very concerned about protecting women's honor and sort of covering 248 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: up all signs of our sexuality, because this was also 249 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,479 Speaker 1: an era when women were presumed to be sexually aggressive 250 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: and prone to hysteria, and we would essentially go wild 251 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: if we weren't being physically attend to do well enough. Well, so, 252 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: in that argument, it only makes sense that women should 253 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: dress modestly. If we're so aggressively sexual and we're always 254 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: trying to trap a man into having sex with us 255 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: and like doing things to our hair and whatever, well, 256 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: obviously we should veil ourselves and cover ourselves up, right. Yeah, yeah, 257 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: there are There are all sorts of conflicting messages. That's 258 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: still though, echo today in a lot of the modesty 259 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: messages that girls and women are being taught. And there 260 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: was a quote from to Minatrig's paper that jumped out 261 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: to me. Uh. She said, neither the veil nor its 262 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: usage has ever been monolithic. The discourse of modesty, shame, 263 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: and protection, however, has always been present. Uh. And and 264 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: those three things, modesty, shame, and protection are very much interwoven. 265 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: In that relationship between those three factors, I think is 266 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: a big reason why we have all of these sort 267 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: of questions about modesty today. Well, yeah, and speaking of 268 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: the modesty movement today, when you move into the late 269 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: nineties and early two thousands, you start to see a 270 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: lot of literature being published on women remaining modest, dressing 271 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: modestly and how that will benefit them both out in 272 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: society and in their relationships with men. Yeah, there's Wendy Shallotte, 273 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: whose name comes up all the time. She's actually been 274 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: referred to as the mother of the modesty movement, and 275 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: in her first book, A Return to Modesty, she wrote 276 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: many of the problem ONMS we hear about today, sexual harassment, 277 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: date rape are connected to cultures attack on modesty. And 278 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: I believe that came out in And I remember this 279 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: clearly because I was in high school and this was 280 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:19,440 Speaker 1: the era of low rise jeans and Britney Spears at 281 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: her peak before she shaved her head, and specifically Britney 282 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: Spears at the MTV Video Music Awards wearing those low 283 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: slung pants, sparkly pants with the thong visible pulled out 284 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: from it, and how horrified everyone was by this. And 285 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: I remember also having like a conversation after conversation with 286 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,239 Speaker 1: my mother about why it should be okay for me 287 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: to wear thongs and how horrified my mother was at 288 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: low rise jeans. There was a lot of modesty panic 289 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: at the turn of the millennium. Interesting. Yeah, I had to, 290 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: I definitely had to start buying thongs and buy I 291 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: I mean my mother bought them for because the jeans 292 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 1: I was wearing were so tight. See, my mother never 293 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 1: would have because I gave her, of course, the argument 294 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: of but visible panty line, and she said, no, no, no, no, 295 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: thongs are for sexual activity and you will not be 296 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: wearing them. But she finally broke down. I think, like 297 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: my junior year and I just bought one. Huh. And 298 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: it's funny now that that as a thirty year old woman, 299 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: I'm like, I would never wear a thong anymore. I 300 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: wear I wear the laser cut like really super thin 301 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: boy boy shorts instead. Listeners are learning a lot about us. 302 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: They are I do not like a thong. Um. But yeah, 303 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: so Shallotte's book, I return to Modesty, and then her 304 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: two thousand seven follow up, Girls Gone Mild. We're accompanied 305 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,119 Speaker 1: by Don Eden's two thousand six book The Thrill of 306 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: the Chased. A lot of wordplay going on here, finding 307 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: fulfillment while keeping your clothes on and Laura's Session Steps 308 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: two thousand eight unhooked how young women pursue sex to 309 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: lay love and lose it oath. And that's sort of 310 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: a huge part of this modesty discussion among a lot 311 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: of these authors, basically saying, like, part of the problem 312 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: is that when young women are dressing really provocatively and slowly, 313 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:16,440 Speaker 1: and they're feeling forced into dressing that way and engaging 314 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: in sexual activity, and we should empower our young women 315 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: to wear a turtleneck. Yeah, And there were a lot 316 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: of common culprits repeated over and over again in these 317 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: kinds of books. So, for instance, Britney Spears comes up 318 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: over and over again. Uh. There's also the so called 319 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: mom's gone wild who are you know, moms who we 320 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: hear about who dress even wilder than their daughters. And 321 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 1: along with that permissive parenting, sex educators, feminists, I mean, 322 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: apparently feminists are very much to blame. Uh, and of 323 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: course hook up culture as well. And and the big 324 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: argument with these modesty books is that it's not just uh, 325 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: girls sexual purity at steak, it's also self esteem. That 326 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: by dressing this way we are degrading ourselves and thus 327 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:12,120 Speaker 1: um just eroding our collective female self esteem. And then 328 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: on top of this, we have a very male Harvard 329 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: professor Harvey Mansfield who wrote Manliness, which urged women to 330 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: cover up. He said that women play the men's game, 331 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: which they are bound to lose. Without modesty, there is 332 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: no romance. It isn't so attractive or so erotic to men. Yeah, 333 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: and that kind of leads to the whole modest as 334 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: hottest sort of thing of, Well, if you really want 335 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: to be as sexually attractive as you can possibly be, 336 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: then cover up so that you leave something to the imagination, 337 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: make him wait for it, make him win it, I 338 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 1: guess by marrying you, and then everything will be fine. 339 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: Which that that's not a perfect message to deliver either, 340 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: because ultimately it's like, wait, wait, I thought the point 341 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: of this was to build self esteems outside of their 342 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,640 Speaker 1: sexual desirability. Oh wait no, you're telling them to cover 343 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: up as a way to amplify their sexual desirability. Yeah, 344 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 1: I know it. It gets it gets super sticky because 345 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: I mean, they're accusing feminists of ruining young women's lives, 346 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 1: but they're people like Shallot are making the assertion that 347 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: feminists as a whole as this monel Lithic group are 348 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: telling young women, you've got to go out there and 349 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: have lots of sex with lots of people, or else 350 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: you're not a real woman or a real feminist. And 351 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: it's like whoa, whoa, pump the brakes. That's not what 352 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: feminism is about. Feminism is about choices, right, and about 353 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: supporting women and doing what they choose to do. And 354 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: so while I feel that you should absolutely have the 355 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: choice and the option to dress as modestly as you want, 356 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: I think that we forget that women are sexual creatures too, 357 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: and this whole discussion about modesty often circles around women 358 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: covering up to protect themselves from men, because feminists have 359 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: been telling us that we should go out and have 360 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: all the sex and no, no, but that's bad for society. 361 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: It's more like, well, no, I mean, I think that 362 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: just means that for once, people are remembering that women 363 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: are sexual creatures to just like men are, and that 364 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,600 Speaker 1: we should have the choice if we so desire, to 365 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: dress however we want and have sex if we want 366 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: or not exactly well, and I think that's the big 367 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: thing that or not is what's often left out of 368 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: these conversations. There's never the assumption that it's also or not. UM. 369 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: And on top of these books, they're also around this time, 370 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: in the early two thousand's and still today, lots of 371 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: pro modesty websites popping up clothing lines. There's even fashion 372 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: magazine called Eliza that is all about modest fashions, how 373 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:53,679 Speaker 1: to look pretty and fashionable while still covering up. Um. 374 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,840 Speaker 1: There's even something called the Pure Fashion Training Program, which 375 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: we started in two thousand and five to essentially teach 376 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: girls how to dress modestly. I mean, it's it's all 377 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: kind of different versions of the same thing. A lot 378 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: of it does have a Christian, very Christian undertones. Um. 379 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 1: And as we have I'm sure very clearly hinted, not 380 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: everyone is a huge fan of this modesty movement. Particularly 381 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 1: when uh Girls Gone Mild by Wendy Shallotte came out 382 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven, there was a lot of 383 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 1: conversation about it and a lot of critique. Yeah, around 384 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,880 Speaker 1: this time, the critiques that were coming out were were 385 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: so I thought they put things pretty darn well, especially 386 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: when from Shia Tarrant over at Bitch Magazine, where she 387 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: talks about how girls and women this is a quote. 388 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: Girls and women are charged with being the gatekeepers of 389 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: what's sexually appropriate, but what's judged inappropriate is measured by 390 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: the effect it has on men. And I think this 391 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: is the key to understanding the art human against this 392 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: particular modesty movement, because it's a catch twenty two because 393 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: we are the gate keepers of our own sexuality, but 394 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: we are also responsible for men's reaction to us. Y 395 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 1: um well and something that Joshua Zeitz, who is the 396 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 1: author of Flapper, A mad Cap Story of Sex, Style, 397 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: Celebrity and the Women who made America Modern, was also 398 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: talking to Newsweek about this whole modesty movement, and he said, 399 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: the thing is, this is really nothing new. They have 400 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: always been culturally conservative reactions to spikes in outward expressions 401 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: of women's sexualities. As during the era of the New 402 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: Woman and the Flapper, people were horrified by it. And 403 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: he says that quote the concern at the time was 404 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: that the culture was sexualizing young girls, and we're talking 405 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 1: about back in the twenties. And he says that the 406 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: backlash then came during the Great Depression, when you see 407 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,479 Speaker 1: a movement to get women back into the home in 408 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: part to correct this culture of licentiousness. So, I mean, 409 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 1: and you can. I feel like any time you have 410 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: a progressive cultural movement, especially one that trends more liberal, 411 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: there's always the flip side to it. There's always the backlash. 412 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: There's always the fear and the panic that that the 413 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,119 Speaker 1: status quo is being challenged a bit too much, and 414 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: it will all lead to us going to you know, 415 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 1: just hell in a handbasket. Yeah, So what do we 416 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: have now? We have more women in the workplace, more 417 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: women as bosses, we have the gay rights movement, more 418 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: and more states okay in gay marriage. There's a lot 419 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: of one would say cultural change going on. Well, and 420 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 1: more women having sex more openly, and by that I 421 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: mean not like out in parks, but being more open 422 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: about their sexuality, about choosing yes, about choosing to participate. 423 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 1: And going back to that quote from Share Tarrant at 424 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: Bitch Magazine talking about how we're the gate keepers of 425 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 1: what's sexually appropriate, but we're also um being judged for 426 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: it um and Kareem at The l A Times wrote 427 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: something similar. She said, it's not a lack of female modesty, 428 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,959 Speaker 1: but a sense of male entitlement that leads to sexual violence. 429 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: So if we're looking at the modesty movement as a 430 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,200 Speaker 1: way for women to protect themselves and to remain pure 431 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 1: and all of this stuff to remain safe, I don't 432 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: think the modesty movement, And obviously and Kareem does not 433 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: either think that this is the way to do it. People. 434 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: It's not that wearing a turtleneck and a long skirt 435 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: it's going to prevent rape from happening. Yeah. And that 436 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,959 Speaker 1: quote from and Kareem was in direct response to Shallots 437 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: quote in a Return to Modesty saying that many of 438 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 1: the problems we hear about today sexual harassment and date 439 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: rape are connected to our cultures. Attack on modesty and 440 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: saying that how you dress will determine whether or not 441 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: you will be raped is completely victim blaming and is 442 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: disproven by statistics and also disproven by just taking a 443 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: walk down the sidewalk in some sweatpants you'll still get 444 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: cat called. It just happens. Um. So obviously there are 445 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,439 Speaker 1: lots of problematic messages that are tied up with this 446 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: when when ultimately the message should be. There are certain 447 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: times and places when certain uniforms are called for as 448 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: in the workplace, sometimes in in schools, et cetera. But 449 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: beyond that, you know, women should be taught to value 450 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: themselves and have self esteem outside of their bodies as 451 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 1: sexual commodities. Um. Absolutely, But when women are being told 452 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: address a specific way, specifically so that they will not 453 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: you know, attract sexual assault, then that just doesn't even 454 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: it doesn't even make logical sense. And just for one 455 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,200 Speaker 1: side note on all this, one thing that's often tied 456 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:18,880 Speaker 1: up with the modesty movement is virginity pledges, and studies 457 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 1: have found that kids who do take virginity pledges are 458 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 1: just as likely to have pre marital sex and have 459 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: higher rates of STD transmissions, probably because, uh, they might 460 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: not have received as comprehensive of sex education and they're 461 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 1: doing things in secret. So something's not necessarily working by 462 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: just saying nope, let's just just didn't just shut off 463 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: your sexuality and everything will be fine. Well, Kristen, you 464 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 1: mentioned dress codes and schools a second ago, and we 465 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: are going to talk more about that whole issue when 466 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: we come right back from a quick break. Now, I've 467 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: talked about dress codes before or on the podcast. We 468 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: dedicated an entire episode to this, So this is a 469 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: little bit of rehashing, but it's important to talk about because, 470 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,959 Speaker 1: especially when we're looking at modesty in more secular settings, 471 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: school dress codes are the prime place where this happens. 472 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: Where these messages of girls, you your bodies are just distractions. 473 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: Then this isn't this is where it's happening. It's happening 474 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: mostly in the classroom, and there are plenty of reasons 475 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: why kids should be expected to dress certain ways in school. 476 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: I do think that there's a lot to the idea 477 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: of dressing for success, and when you are, you know, 478 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: dressed in a certain way, it kind of helps you 479 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: feel better, it helps you pay more attention. However, a 480 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: lot of dress codes take it too far and end 481 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: up penalizing certain types of body types. Yeah yeah, well, 482 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: I mean it's the same thing that we talked about 483 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the podcast. With any girl who 484 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:12,160 Speaker 1: is slightly curvyer, or bigger in any way than what 485 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: is considered like a safe body almost is penalized, like 486 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: something will look too low cut or too short or 487 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: to this or to that. God forbid, You're tall and slim, 488 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: and your shorts are the exact same shorts that your 489 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,200 Speaker 1: friend is wearing, but they just look longer on her 490 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: and shorter on you. You know, it's like it's a 491 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: lose lose proposition when it comes to getting girls in 492 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: trouble for what they're wearing. And and I totally agree 493 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: with you that, yes, there obviously should be guidelines. I 494 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: went to school with a strict dress code. Um. But 495 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: when you get into the argument that girls have to 496 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: dress a certain way so as not to distract the 497 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: other half of the population at school, I think that's problematic. Yeah. 498 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 1: I mean because tossing that too the fact that girls 499 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: bodies are developing at different times, and when you are 500 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: stay an eleven, twelve, thirteen year old girl, and you 501 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: got boobs out of nowhere, you got a butt or 502 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: both out of nowhere, and you're kind of dealing with 503 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: how you know the world around you is now responding 504 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: to this more womanly body while you're still dealing with 505 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: the fact that you have an adolescent brain. Is confusing 506 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: and confounding enough to begin with, But to then have 507 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 1: adults tell you that your body is a dangerous distraction 508 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: for yourself and for other people is certainly harmful. Um. 509 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: And there are all sorts of examples of modesty and 510 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: dress codes kind of gone wild. Uh. There was one 511 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: incident that went viral that a lot of listeners have 512 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: probably heard about during prom season earlier in when a 513 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: girl went to a homeschool prom and she wore a dress. 514 00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: It was short, but she double checked that it was 515 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: going to be fingertip length even with her super high 516 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: high heels on, and she was eventually kicked out of 517 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: the prom because she was told by a female chaperone 518 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: that she was distracting male chaperones who were watching her 519 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 1: and watching her dance, to which she wrote a blog 520 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: post about it and was enraged by understandably, and it 521 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 1: went completely viral, right, yeah, And she was basically arguing 522 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: that she was within the stated dress code, that it 523 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: was fingertip length, and more so, what are these male 524 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: chaperins doing looking down at all of us and judging 525 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: what we're wearing and determining whether it's inappropriate. Well, not 526 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: not even just judging, but actually saying that they were 527 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: becoming too aroused by the sight of this like fifteen 528 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: sixteen year old girl, so she needed to be removed. 529 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: They didn't need to do anything with checking their own 530 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: thoughts and fantasies. It was her as the gatekeeper of 531 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: her own sexuality and apparently the reactions of everyone else 532 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: around her, she's the one who needs to be punished 533 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: for that. And um, even I mean I feel like 534 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: things like that when when people are like, oh, well 535 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: it's a homeschool prom, of course that's going to happen, 536 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: because it's just a bunch of evangelical Christian nuts. That's 537 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: where the only place that happens. No. No, As a 538 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: past former evangelical homeschool, I feel okay saying that. And 539 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: also there have been issues in public schools at proms 540 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: with girls who have dresses that meet the dress code, 541 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: but their bodies are simply deemed like too busty. Nope, 542 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: we can see too much of your boobs, we can 543 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: see too much of your butts. Go cover up. Mm hmm. 544 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: But I mean talking about school, it's not just happening 545 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: at high schools or elementary schools or whatever. It's also 546 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: happening at nursing school. If we look at U T. Austin, 547 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: they had a modesty promoting sign hung up in an 548 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: elevator I think it will us or somewhere in the 549 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: hall that basically was like, hey guys and gals, you're 550 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: at nursing school now, so don't dress in appropriately. And 551 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: it's like if they had just left it at that, well, 552 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: it specifically said no cleavage, yeah, but they didn't just 553 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: leave it at that. They listed like no cleavage, no 554 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: short skirts, no short shorts, no this and that, and 555 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: so it was obviously targeting women and women's bodies, but 556 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: the sign was removed thanks to social media. The sign 557 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: was removed within twenty four hours. Yeah. And the thing is, 558 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: this is where we get into the difference between intent 559 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,399 Speaker 1: and impact, because you could say that the intent of 560 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: all of these messages is perfectly fine, well and good, 561 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 1: because the intent is for girls to have a healthy 562 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: self esteem, for them to you know, not experience sexual 563 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: harassment or sexual assault, uh, to create more positive and 564 00:34:54,400 --> 00:35:00,320 Speaker 1: effective learning environments, all perfectly good intentions. But the problem 565 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,799 Speaker 1: is the impact is not that because a lot of 566 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: times the messages the girls are being delivered is that, 567 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: you know what, the fact of the matter is, you're 568 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: living in a rape culture, so you better cover up 569 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: because if you don't, you will be considered as someone 570 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:23,280 Speaker 1: who is fine to sexually assault. And that sounds extreme, 571 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: but when you break down those kinds of messages because 572 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,399 Speaker 1: it's well, I mean, boys will be boys, so you'd 573 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: better cover your boobs or else are gonna want to 574 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: honk them like it just doesn't. It's insulting to girls, 575 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: But it's also insulting to boys, yeah, because yeah, you're 576 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: telling girls that your body is dangerous. You're going to 577 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: distract everyone, and it will be your fault if you 578 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,439 Speaker 1: get assaulted. But you're delivering the message to boys that well, 579 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: it's fine, boys will be boys. You obviously can't control 580 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: your animal sexuality, so if you do assault that girl, 581 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: you know, it's just of course. Yeah, And there was 582 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: one thing that I wanted to look into, which is 583 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: kind of debunking this whole boys will be boys nonsense, 584 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,399 Speaker 1: because I do think that that a lot of it 585 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: just strips everyone of agency because essentially we're all powerless 586 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: over our own bodies. Girls are powerless over, you know, 587 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: the messages that their cleavage might deliver, and boys apparently 588 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: are powerless over the messages that their penises deliver to 589 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: their brains because a lot of times the comments that 590 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: you hear is that, well, boys and men are just 591 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,919 Speaker 1: visual creatures and you can't you know, we we really 592 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,960 Speaker 1: do need to just protect what they then see. But 593 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: when you look into studies on the sex specific responses 594 00:36:53,320 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: to visual stimuli, yes, men are completely visually stimulated, absolutely, um, 595 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: but a so are women. And also the specific response 596 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: to the sexual messages that men infer from said stimuli 597 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: do have beyond biological influencers. And what we're talking about 598 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 1: is coming from a two thousand seven meta analysis called 599 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,360 Speaker 1: sex specific content Preferences for Visual sexual Stimuli, a review 600 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: by Kim Wallen and Heather Rupp, and in looking at 601 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: how men sort of uh respond when they are viewing 602 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: a woman or women interacting with women, they found that 603 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: that sort of almost rape cultural response that we expect 604 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: that we think, oh, well, if a woman's exposed, that's 605 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,760 Speaker 1: her fault and she's just arousing all of the men folk, 606 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,839 Speaker 1: that that response is actually minimized in men who have 607 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: more exposure to women, have been in experience coeducational experiences 608 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: with them. Um, basically, as I would interpret it, men 609 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: who respect women as people more. Yeah, there is clearly 610 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: a strong correlation between the interactions that men had with women, essentially, 611 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 1: like the more they were simply seen as people rather 612 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 1: than sex objects, and the the inference from seeing a 613 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: sexual stimuli as an invitation and open invitation for them 614 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,439 Speaker 1: to approach and interact at will. Because the thing about 615 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: it is, I don't see anything wrong whatsoever with men 616 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: or women. That's another thing in all of this. Women 617 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: are also visually stimulated. But anyway, I see nothing wrong 618 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: with men or women seeing another body and being sexually 619 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,000 Speaker 1: aroused by that. That is simply going to happen. I 620 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: don't think the the ultimate purpose of watch what You 621 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 1: dress is to try to like shut down our complete 622 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: and total sexual responses. It's more when we get into 623 00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: the rape culture territory, it's more that visual stimuli and 624 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,760 Speaker 1: that thought of huh, wow, that's a very attractive person, 625 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: and even to the point of that's a very attractive person, 626 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,800 Speaker 1: and I wouldn't mind being naked with them. That line 627 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: then going into and you know what, I'm just gonna go, 628 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, get naked with that person, whether he or 629 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: she likes it or not. Right, So, then the researchers 630 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,879 Speaker 1: were also talking about how this whole stereotype of men 631 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:27,479 Speaker 1: being so visually stimulated and women not apparently being visually 632 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: stimulated at all according to just stereotype. They were talking 633 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: about how because there's that expectation and that stereotype that 634 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: exists that women are less likely to say that they 635 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: are sexually stimulated because of visual cues. Yeah, I mean 636 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: a lot of times we're not supposed to obviously, Like 637 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: women have for so long been the gatekeepers over and 638 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: over again of sexual propriety. You know, women don't. That's 639 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 1: why you know, the popularity of fifty Shades of Gray 640 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: so mind blowing to people because it's women openly saying like, 641 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 1: oh wow, I'm really into this, and because it's sexually arousing. 642 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 1: Apparently women talk like this too. And when it comes 643 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: to sexual objectification, which obviously is a big piece of 644 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 1: this of seeing women not as people but as sex 645 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 1: objects therefore their gratification, one two thousand eight study found 646 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,879 Speaker 1: that there is a learned part of that that's not 647 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: just some natural, as we often call it, instinct of 648 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,280 Speaker 1: a visual creature. No. It found that men are often 649 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:44,240 Speaker 1: taught from an early age to emphasize physical appearance, and 650 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: that they tend to be more aroused in context in 651 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: which they can objectify another person, and that that tendency 652 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: is often learned because we're societally we cater to that interesting. 653 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,680 Speaker 1: And while that might like we have a hopeless situation, 654 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: that's actually good news is the fact that, oh no, 655 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: there's actually a lot of learning and socialization involved with this. 656 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,279 Speaker 1: I think it's highly possible. In the same way that 657 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,320 Speaker 1: we want to teach girls to refocus their self esteem 658 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: away from just the value of their bodies, we can 659 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,919 Speaker 1: also teach boys to refocus the value that they see 660 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,399 Speaker 1: in women beyond just being potential sex objects. Right, it's 661 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: unlearning that entitlement we talked about earlier that actually is 662 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,280 Speaker 1: what leads to the danger of rape and sexual assault, 663 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 1: not what a woman is wearing exactly. And I want 664 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:39,239 Speaker 1: to underscore again that this isn't an argument for just 665 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 1: let people always, in every single context, dress however they want. Um. 666 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 1: I think that it would be foolish to say that 667 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,760 Speaker 1: that that the way you dress will you know, shouldn't 668 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,680 Speaker 1: have to shouldn't make any kind of impact on what 669 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: other people think about you. There are issues when it's 670 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,880 Speaker 1: good to dress professionally, or where it's good to dress 671 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,319 Speaker 1: in clean, neat clothes, where you know, there's definitely an 672 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: interaction between how we dress and how we feel. Because 673 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: I do think there comes a time for a lot 674 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 1: of girls, especially when we hit puberty. At least I 675 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,720 Speaker 1: can just speak for myself, when you start getting curious 676 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,719 Speaker 1: about what it is to feel sexy and feel desired, 677 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: and you want to dress in provocative ways and you 678 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,439 Speaker 1: want to test those boundaries, and it's like, okay, Well, 679 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: the question then becomes how how do we talk to 680 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:36,439 Speaker 1: girls about this? How do we And because I think 681 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,359 Speaker 1: just telling girls no, no, no, just don't do that 682 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: you'll be asking for it isn't going to solve anything 683 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 1: at all. Even if she does say okay, it's nothing 684 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 1: but overalls and turtlenecks from here on out. It's not 685 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: really that's not really teaching her anything beyond just what 686 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: to put on. That's not you know, that's not really 687 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: building up um, building up this self esteem. Yeah, I mean, 688 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:04,920 Speaker 1: I think a lot of it goes back to the 689 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: choices that we talked about earlier, the choices of dressing 690 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: modestly if you so choose, and not tying sexuality or 691 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:18,839 Speaker 1: or the potential for danger just to a woman's body. Yeah, 692 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:24,480 Speaker 1: I mean, because the taking this back a few levels, 693 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,720 Speaker 1: it's not so much about the clothes. It's the fact 694 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,279 Speaker 1: that ultimately you know that the best thing a girl 695 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,760 Speaker 1: can be called in our culture is beautiful and desirable. 696 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 1: And I think that that's where we get into the trouble. 697 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:45,320 Speaker 1: It's not that girls want to wear thongs when sometimes 698 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: it's completely unnecessary, which brings up my follow up question 699 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,320 Speaker 1: of is a thong ever necessary? Really? Um more so 700 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,000 Speaker 1: than the clothes. I just think that it's the issue 701 00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: that we need to take a closer look at of, Well, 702 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,560 Speaker 1: why is it that the highest compliment you can pay 703 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: to a girl in our society is that she's beautiful? 704 00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:09,600 Speaker 1: Is that she is desirable? Is that you know? And 705 00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: and why for boys is obtaining a girl, of having 706 00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,879 Speaker 1: sex with a girl some kind of prize to chase down? 707 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: And there there was one Facebook comment that jumped out 708 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 1: to me from someone who is arguing in favor of 709 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: dressing modestly because we have a natural line of decency, 710 00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:36,960 Speaker 1: to which I say, but then why is it that 711 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: if you travel around the world to some areas, it's 712 00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:44,520 Speaker 1: natural in quotes for women to be topless, for women 713 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 1: to be far less modest than we are in Western society. 714 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,719 Speaker 1: All of that, really, to me is evidence that modesty 715 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: in many ways is a construct and we just need 716 00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:01,280 Speaker 1: to pay close attention to what we are really saying 717 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:07,720 Speaker 1: when we are saying be modest. Yeah, I'm definitely interested 718 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: to hear from people once. You know, we prompted people 719 00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,120 Speaker 1: before this episode to tell us what they thought. I'm 720 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,719 Speaker 1: interested to hear it. The same people respond once they've 721 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 1: heard us, especially if you have girls. This is the 722 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: thing that I still don't I still don't know how 723 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: to talk to a girl about the issue of dressing 724 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: without alienating her from her own body, if that makes sense. 725 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: So if anyone has cracked that code, please let us know. 726 00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how Stuff Works dot comm is where 727 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 1: you can send your letters, and I know we're gonna 728 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: be getting a lot of them. You can also message 729 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,560 Speaker 1: us on Facebook or tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast, 730 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:49,799 Speaker 1: and We've got a couple of messages to share with 731 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:57,160 Speaker 1: you that have nothing to do with modesty. Right now. Well, 732 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: I've got an email here from Becky about our Women 733 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:05,040 Speaker 1: Traveling Alone are Women's Wanderlust episode. She writes, thank you 734 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,759 Speaker 1: so much for your podcast about women traveling Alone. I 735 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,960 Speaker 1: too travel to Italy on my own to study abroad. Well, 736 00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 1: it was pretty nerve racking to fight international on my own. 737 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,759 Speaker 1: The freedom I felt was amazing. It's also the best 738 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,840 Speaker 1: feeling in the world after small victories like finding somewhere 739 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 1: decent to eat on your own, finding your plane, making 740 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: it through a day without feeling like you want to 741 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,640 Speaker 1: cry a little. It's been five years since i went 742 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,840 Speaker 1: to Italy, and I'm looking forward to going back again. 743 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:31,440 Speaker 1: This podcast gave me an extra nudge to make that 744 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:33,680 Speaker 1: goal of reality. Whether I go by myself or with 745 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: another female companion. It makes me scared that I forego 746 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 1: my travel dreams, as corny as that sounds, just because 747 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,600 Speaker 1: I'm afraid of experiencing things alone. So thanks for the 748 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:49,280 Speaker 1: encouragement and thank you Becky. Alright, I have a letter 749 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:54,839 Speaker 1: from Rochelle. She said that our Wanderlust podcast made her 750 00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,840 Speaker 1: long for her first solo travel trip to the States 751 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,719 Speaker 1: ten years ago. She says, I'm from Perth, Western Australia, 752 00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: and I've since been back to America two more times. 753 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,880 Speaker 1: Back in oh four, I was twenty two and I 754 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 1: had signed up to work in an American summer camp 755 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,799 Speaker 1: in the Poconos. I had a little time before camp 756 00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,240 Speaker 1: started to see New York and lots of time afterwards 757 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,480 Speaker 1: to see the rest of America. My parents were very concerned, 758 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,319 Speaker 1: and my dad even gave me a rape whistle, which 759 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,160 Speaker 1: I assured him I wouldn't need. Traveling alone, I had 760 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 1: a lot of interesting experiences that I wouldn't have had 761 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,800 Speaker 1: if I was traveling with someone. My first interesting experience 762 00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,480 Speaker 1: happened when I got off the subway in New York 763 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,040 Speaker 1: after flying in. I had booked a hostile a little 764 00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,040 Speaker 1: further out than I thought. I thought i'd booked somewhere 765 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:35,879 Speaker 1: on the Upper West Side, and it ended up being 766 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,200 Speaker 1: in Harlem. When I came up from the subway, a 767 00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: guy approached me and asked if I needed help with 768 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,680 Speaker 1: my luggage. He could have been just being a complete gentleman. However, 769 00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:45,680 Speaker 1: I said that I was fine and carried on to 770 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: my hostel. It's very true that you were approached more 771 00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:50,520 Speaker 1: often when you're alone. In New York, I was approached 772 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,480 Speaker 1: by another tourist asking me for directions, and in l A, 773 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:55,560 Speaker 1: I was waiting at a bus stop when an ausee 774 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,759 Speaker 1: couple asked me the difference between dimes and nickels. After 775 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 1: a minute of talking, they really lies. They frequented the 776 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:05,279 Speaker 1: store where I worked. Back home. Very small world I 777 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,719 Speaker 1: also had the interesting experience of staying in a unisex 778 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,399 Speaker 1: for bed dorm for two weeks, and the whole time 779 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:12,080 Speaker 1: I was the only female in the room while the 780 00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,919 Speaker 1: men came and went. I never felt threatened. I ended 781 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 1: up being taken under the wing of a slightly older 782 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:18,920 Speaker 1: German dude who took me on all sorts of crazy 783 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,960 Speaker 1: adventures I never would have gotten into had I not 784 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:25,400 Speaker 1: been traveling alone. UM So, Rochelle, I'm so glad you 785 00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,960 Speaker 1: had some amazing solo travel experiences. I um just had 786 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,040 Speaker 1: my own to a Ruba not too long ago, and 787 00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,279 Speaker 1: it was awesome and I I definitely felt like I 788 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,000 Speaker 1: press pressed the reset button. I think traveling alone is 789 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,879 Speaker 1: something that you, the general, you should all do if 790 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,680 Speaker 1: you get the chance. And thanks everybody who's written into 791 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:46,880 Speaker 1: us Mom stuff at how Stuffworks dot com is our 792 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,440 Speaker 1: email address, and you can also find all of our 793 00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:54,320 Speaker 1: social media links, as well as all of our blogs, videos, 794 00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,440 Speaker 1: and podcasts, including this one, which will also include all 795 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,799 Speaker 1: of our sources, so you can follow along with us 796 00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:07,719 Speaker 1: over at stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for 797 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics. Is it 798 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:18,359 Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com