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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Cool People who Did Cool Stuff.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy. This is a rerun episode.

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Speaker 2: Everyone loves rerun episodes. Why is this the rerun episode? Well,

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Speaker 2: a couple reasons. One of them is that some stuff

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Speaker 2: happened this week. You might have been there, you might

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Speaker 2: have noticed. But the other reason is that I'm on

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Speaker 2: tour right now and I'm finally headed back home, which

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Speaker 2: means that I will be back to being able to

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Speaker 2: record in a more easy way instead of recording intros

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Speaker 2: in a rest area somewhere in California in the morning.

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Speaker 2: Is what I'm doing. Anyway, This rerun episode is about

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Speaker 2: the Jane Collective. You see, imagine a time when abortion

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Speaker 2: isn't legal in the United States. It's probably easy for

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Speaker 2: you to imagine if you live in a lot of

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Speaker 2: states right now, and yet most people are okay with it,

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Speaker 2: which we all saw at the polls last week. What

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Speaker 2: a bunch of people did is they got together and

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Speaker 2: they offered abortion services safely, and developed new technology for

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Speaker 2: them and did all kinds of amazing things even though

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Speaker 2: it was a crime. Because sometimes resistance looks like protest,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes it's just outright crime, which we would never advocate,

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Speaker 2: but we sure will talk about some of the people

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Speaker 2: who did it as cool on this podcast. Hi, Margaret

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Speaker 2: here with Samantha, today's guest, recording a new introduction to

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Speaker 2: this episode because a lot has happened since we recorded

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Speaker 2: it only a couple weeks ago. Normally, this is a

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Speaker 2: history podcast in the way that our subjects tying to

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Speaker 2: current events is left up to the listener's imagination. But

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Speaker 2: this is kind of an exceptional moment because when we

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Speaker 2: recorded this episode, which is about abortion access and direct

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Speaker 2: action abortion access, specifically the Jain collective. Well, I guess

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Speaker 2: you all saw that when you saw the title of

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Speaker 2: the episode when you downloaded it. We kind of joke about,

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Speaker 2: I think during the course of recording about not joke

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Speaker 2: what we say, Well, the overturning of Roe v. Wade

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Speaker 2: is a potential threat, and since then we've obviously all

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Speaker 2: seen that. There's a leak's document that says, well, it's

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Speaker 2: not a potential threat, it is an almost certainty that

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Speaker 2: is happening. The Supreme Court intends to overthrow Roe v.

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Speaker 3: Wade.

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Speaker 2: Samantha, do you have a better overview than that?

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Speaker 4: So here is what we have been able to read,

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Speaker 4: and what we know that in this lite document, they

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Speaker 4: have already voted to overturn Roe v. Wade, and they

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Speaker 4: did it through the Supreme Court case of Dobbs v.

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Speaker 4: Jackson Women's Health Organization, which is based out of Mississippi,

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Speaker 4: which also is a trigger state. And if you don't

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Speaker 4: know what trigger state is, it means they are ready

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Speaker 4: to go the minute Roe v. Wade is overturned, that

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Speaker 4: there will be an immediate ban on abortion the second

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Speaker 4: it happens. So they are called the trigger states. And

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Speaker 4: there are several we'll mention that in a minute, and

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Speaker 4: Mississippi is one of those. So in this brief that

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Speaker 4: we read from Judge Alito, who is the one that

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Speaker 4: has written this up, it is ninety eight pages long,

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Speaker 4: with like forty pages of an appendix to talk about

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Speaker 4: his argument about why Roe v. Wade should be overturned.

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Speaker 4: And he begins his statement, and I think it's something

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Speaker 4: that we need to talk about because the language in

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Speaker 4: itself is going to be repeated throughout. I'm not going

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Speaker 4: to read it, I swear to god, I'm not. I cried.

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Speaker 4: I screamed at the computer when I was reading this,

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Speaker 4: and dissecting it, and I want to vomit as we

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Speaker 4: are talking about it. But in it he writes, yeah.

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Speaker 4: He begins the statement with talking about how divisive this

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Speaker 4: issue is and is a profound moral issue. So he

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Speaker 4: is allowing this conversation to take into a whole load

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Speaker 4: of feelings and automatically place what he feels is morality

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Speaker 4: and his own morality onto this. So that's how it begins.

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Speaker 4: And then he talks about the fact that the Constitution,

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Speaker 4: and we hold that rowan Casey, which is the Casey

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Speaker 4: versus Planned Parenthood, which happened in the nineties that helped

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Speaker 4: keep up with the bro v Wade, that it must

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Speaker 4: be overruled. The Constitution makes no reference to abortion, and

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Speaker 4: no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision,

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Speaker 4: including the one on which the defenders of Roe and

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Speaker 4: Casey now chiefly rely, the due process clause of the

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Speaker 4: fourteenth Amendment. So in that clause, just for people, I

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Speaker 4: have a feeling so many people, the people listening to

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Speaker 4: this are so smart, they're gonna be like, would you

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Speaker 4: shut up and move on? But just in case, just

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Speaker 4: in case, it's that privacy, the right to privacy, which

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Speaker 4: is not necessarily mentioned, but it is based in this

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Speaker 4: and they took that language and said, yes, this is

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Speaker 4: about privacy. So that's very important, as we know, because

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Speaker 4: it goes to a slew of other unconstitutional constitutional things.

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Speaker 4: So he talks about that, and that he continues on

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Speaker 4: that provision has been held to guarantee some rights that

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Speaker 4: are not mentioned in the Constitution, but many such must

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Speaker 4: be quote deeply rooted in this nation's history and tradition

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Speaker 4: in the concept of ordered liberty. So ordered liberty as

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Speaker 4: well as nation's history is going to be all throughout

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Speaker 4: this brief. His whole stance is that because it was

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Speaker 4: never mentioned in the Constitution, that it was never ever

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Speaker 4: a constitutional thing and should not be allowed as a

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Speaker 4: constitutional thing, and that it wasn't even mentioned to be

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Speaker 4: a right until nineteen seventy three. And because of that,

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Speaker 4: this is not a constitutional issue. And the other part

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Speaker 4: to this is that ordered liberty. So when we talk

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Speaker 4: about ordered liberty, this is when he is saying that

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Speaker 4: he and a certain amount of people have the right

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Speaker 4: to tell you what your liberties are, and they get

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Speaker 4: to tell you what is orderly. So this is why

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Speaker 4: we're talking about how this is going to overturn it

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Speaker 4: because he's able to make this a state's right thing,

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Speaker 4: in which he said that's how it's always been, that's

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Speaker 4: how it's always should be. Roe v. Wade overstepped because

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Speaker 4: they took something out of context from an eighteen sixty

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Speaker 4: eight idea of this constitutional conversation. So where we are today, Yes,

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Speaker 4: there's back and forth right now about it's not that

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Speaker 4: big of a deal because the states can govern. It's

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Speaker 4: not an outright ban technically what we were talking about earlier,

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Speaker 4: what I was talking about earlier with the trigger states.

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Speaker 4: The states are Idaho, Utah, Wyoming, Texas, Louisiana, Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri, Arkansas, Mississippi,

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Speaker 4: North Dakota, South Dakota, and Oklahoma. And even though in

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Speaker 4: my state of Georgia, they don't necessarily have a trigger law,

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Speaker 4: yet what they have done is come at the abortion

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Speaker 4: clinics and abortion facilities telling them go ahead and get ready,

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Speaker 4: and so a lot of the clinics have stopped taking

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Speaker 4: appointments and canceled the appointments at this point in time.

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Speaker 4: So it's very very dangerous in where we are, even

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Speaker 4: though it's not necessarily a trigger state. Those who are

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Speaker 4: sitting in most likely more liberal left leaning are quote

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Speaker 4: unquote okay, it is those who are what would be

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Speaker 4: the red states that could be heavily heavily affected.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And what people I think often forget when they're

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Speaker 2: like sitting comfortably in their blue states or whatever, is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, the margins that we're talking about. The difference

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Speaker 2: between a red state and a blue state is actually

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Speaker 2: not incredibly dramatic. It's not like the red states are

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Speaker 2: all like, you know, ninety percent people who want to

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Speaker 2: get rid of this or something like that. It might

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Speaker 2: be fifty one percent or even well, I guess actually

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Speaker 2: abortion itself, what is it like sixty nine percent of

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Speaker 2: Americans right.

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Speaker 4: Like seventy percent who want to keep it, and in

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Speaker 4: the state of Georgia is sixty eight percent as well.

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Speaker 4: So even though people think of us as just like

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Speaker 4: the you know, silly red state, though we prove them

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Speaker 4: wrong in the last few elections. And I know this,

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Speaker 4: I am with one hundred percent with everyone when I

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Speaker 4: say this government is bullshit and there's things to be

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Speaker 4: so many things changed, and I am frustrated to the

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Speaker 4: core because nothing like somethings are better and this is

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Speaker 4: better than it was, but at the same time, what

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Speaker 4: happened in twenty sixteen really really fucked up everything else,

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Speaker 4: and what we are seeing is the detriment of that. However,

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Speaker 4: it's not a fix all. I understand this, But what

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Speaker 4: we're saying is in the state of Georgia, the majority

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Speaker 4: of the voters, who are typically women of color and

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Speaker 4: people of color, are all about our current senators and

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Speaker 4: those who are pushing to that point. But Jerry Manderin

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Speaker 4: has made it almost impossible as well as voter suppression,

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Speaker 4: to get to move and push it to the right direction. Nearly,

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Speaker 4: I do say nearly, and it's frustrating because yes, we

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Speaker 4: are going to be affected, even though Georgia is not

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Speaker 4: a trigger state as we were talking about earlier. Obviously

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Speaker 4: he's already had he being governor, Kemp has already put

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Speaker 4: in the six week ban and just kind of sitting

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Speaker 4: in a court right now. And if these things change

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Speaker 4: is over Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, honestly, I mean, besides the fact that we have

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Speaker 2: an unelected shadow council that makes still the decision about

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Speaker 2: what happened with our bodies. Really, the point of this

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Speaker 2: episode that you all are about to listen to is

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Speaker 2: about direct action abortion access and how even when the

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Speaker 2: law is not on your side, this is still going

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Speaker 2: to happen, and how can we make it happen as

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Speaker 2: well as possible, as safely as possible. There's also, unfortunately

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Speaker 2: other effects that could happen beyond just this. I was

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Speaker 2: talking to my lawyer, the amazing Moira Meltzer Cohen, who

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Speaker 2: said that we need to be prepared for all of

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Speaker 2: the penumber cases, which are cases that put forth the

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Speaker 2: idea that constitutional due process implies a right to privacy.

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Speaker 2: This was called the Penumber basically during Griswold versus Connecticut,

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Speaker 2: which is the case that legalized birth control, and so

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Speaker 2: basically saying that they had a penumber a sort of

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Speaker 2: shadow that implied rights to privacy, and lawyers on both

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Speaker 2: sides have been arguing that this is a terrible and

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Speaker 2: flimsy legal standing for a very long time. There are

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Speaker 2: things that rely on that include, as I mentioned, birth control,

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Speaker 2: but also gay sex or really any sex that isn't

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Speaker 2: for procreation could theoretically be criminalized once again. And so

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Speaker 2: what we're going to do is we're going to link

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Speaker 2: to a lot of resources in the show notes encourage

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Speaker 2: people to look into things, look into ways to contribute,

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Speaker 2: look into ways to if you have your own needs,

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Speaker 2: how you can meet those directly, if you or help

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Speaker 2: other people meet their needs directly through lots of different ways.

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Speaker 4: And for those who are in a point I know

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Speaker 4: people are filling a time crunch, because there is a

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Speaker 4: time crunch. Abortion is still legal and accessible. The home

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Speaker 4: abortion pill is FDA proved to be sent by mail,

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Speaker 4: so if you need to do that, do that. That

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Speaker 4: is still accessible and it's still around. And we do

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Speaker 4: see organizations that are coming through kind of like the

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Speaker 4: Jain Collective did on a better, bigger level, which I

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Speaker 4: love every bit of that. That's kind of that silver lining.

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Speaker 4: And again, yeah, things that we'd see such as birth control,

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Speaker 4: we are seeing things in play. Missouri and Louisiana has

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Speaker 4: decided to put in a clause in their trigger laws

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Speaker 4: that includes iud's being illegal, so that means someone who

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Speaker 4: has an IUD, which has become very effective, may be prosecuted.

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Speaker 4: As well as the fact that those who are going

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Speaker 4: through things like a topic pregnancy, which is when again

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Speaker 4: I think we talk about it later, the egg is

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Speaker 4: the fertilized egg is stuck in Neurophilippian two burst and

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Speaker 4: kills a person can kill a person damaged and severely.

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Speaker 4: This will be if you try to extract that, that'll

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Speaker 4: be considered abortion as well. So this is why these

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Speaker 4: laws are so important that we pay attention to it. Again,

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Speaker 4: that privacy clause. That's what they're coming after. And that

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Speaker 4: includes gay marriage, that includes consensual adult sex, that includes

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Speaker 4: so much more. And that's why this is so damn scary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll leave it to the listener's imagination about

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Speaker 2: the methods that might be necessary when the democratic process

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Speaker 2: has failed. But one thing also will say is that

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Speaker 2: I love this episode that you're all about to hear,

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Speaker 2: but don't listen to it to determine how to self

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Speaker 2: manage abortions. Look elsewhere for information about how to self

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Speaker 2: manage abortions. Medicated abortions are readily available, at least at

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Speaker 2: the moment, and are substantially better than what is available

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Speaker 2: and what was available to the heroes of today's episode.

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Speaker 2: So what can people do? Like if people have if

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Speaker 2: people want to donate, what would you what would you suggest?

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Speaker 4: So I don't want to give you specific organizations because

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Speaker 4: it affects different people, different in different places. But one

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Speaker 4: of the things I would say is planned parenthood is

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Speaker 4: not necessarily where you should donate. Maybe start looking at

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Speaker 4: specific clinics and funds that you are appreciative of or

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Speaker 4: think that they can do a good job. Research who

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Speaker 4: you're donating to. Also, if you're in a safe state,

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Speaker 4: as we said, and I'm going to call this safe state,

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Speaker 4: I don't know if that's what they're called. I'm just

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Speaker 4: going to quote it, like in one of the states

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Speaker 4: where the government is allowing and talking about, Yeah, abortion,

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Speaker 4: it should be part of healthcare. Then maybe look to

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Speaker 4: the trigger states that we mentioned earlier and help donate

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Speaker 4: to those days because they are in deep danger as

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Speaker 4: I said before, about losing everything very quickly, very fast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And the people I've been talking to and asking

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Speaker 2: for advice about where to put your energy in terms

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Speaker 2: of organizations to support, have also suggested that abortion funds

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Speaker 2: are specifically the place to go. And then also one

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Speaker 2: other one that again my lawyer friend recommended, is called

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Speaker 2: the repro Legal Defense Fund, which is a fund that

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Speaker 2: supports people who are investigated, arrested, or prosecuted for self

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Speaker 2: managed abortion or for helping and their own or someone

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Speaker 2: else's pregnancy, and so that is a thing that legal

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Speaker 2: defense is going to have to become part of all

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Speaker 2: of this as well. Unfortunately.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, And if you kind of want to know what

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Speaker 4: is impacted and how you can impact better, you can

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Speaker 4: also go to the National Network of Abortion Funds and

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Speaker 4: they kind of have a list of who is in

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Speaker 4: need of services and what type of services are news

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Speaker 4: for what funds, and that could give you a kind

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Speaker 4: of at least an audited sheet of who you're giving

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Speaker 4: to and what they're doing.

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Speaker 2: And here's the episode. Hello, and welcome to Cool People

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Speaker 2: Who Did Cool Stuff, the podcast that needs no introduction.

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Speaker 3: No, no, no, Margaret, it needs an introduction.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Welcome to Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, the

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Speaker 2: podcast that apparently needs an introduction. Every week I'm going

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Speaker 2: to bring you a new story of cool people who

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Speaker 2: did cool stuff. Thus the title. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy.

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Speaker 2: And this week I have on Samantha McVay, who is

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Speaker 2: the host of the also stuff related podcast stuff Mom

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Speaker 2: Never Told You. Samantha, how are you doing good?

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Speaker 4: Thank you for having me on the show, and yay,

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Speaker 4: welcome to the fam and all the things. So excited

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Speaker 4: to have you as a part of our network family.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm really excited. Okay, So I've also have Sophie

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Speaker 2: on the call. So Sophie's the producer.

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Speaker 4: How are you doing, Hi, Superheroes, Sophie over.

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Speaker 3: Here doing I'm doing Okay?

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Speaker 4: That is that is that is a theme of two

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Speaker 4: twenty one twenty.

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Speaker 2: What it is we're doing.

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Speaker 4: Time is not real. It does not.

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Speaker 2: Exist, especially since what we're recording will make no sense

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Speaker 2: to people who are listening to it twenty five years

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Speaker 2: from now.

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Speaker 4: Oh gosh, yeah, I hope so.

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Speaker 2: But so, Samantha, I'm wondering, how do you feel about

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Speaker 2: reproductive rights? Would you say that overall you're pro or

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Speaker 2: anti you deciding what happens with your body?

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Speaker 4: You know, as someone who does have a uterus and

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Speaker 4: feels the fact that I'm a pretty smart and capable woman,

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Speaker 4: that I should be allowed to have my choices, and

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Speaker 4: that being dictated by cis white men telling me that

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Speaker 4: they need control over my body because they're afraid of

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Speaker 4: the vagina in general and uterus and the power of

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Speaker 4: the uterus. I'm musa say I'm pro everything about it,

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Speaker 4: and let's go ahead and say nah, bra get out

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Speaker 4: of it. Well, is not a long winded answer.

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Speaker 2: No, no, this is great. It would be a very

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Speaker 2: different in short podcast appear answer was wildly different from

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Speaker 2: that I have.

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Speaker 3: I was like, Margaret, I have this really great person

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Speaker 3: that I want to have on for this specific topic that.

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Speaker 4: It comes on, and it's like, oh, now you know

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Speaker 4: how I feel it used to be. Can I tell

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Speaker 4: you this. I grew up in a very conservative For

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Speaker 4: the listeners who are familiar with me, I grew up

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Speaker 4: in a very conservative town. My parents are white, I'm adopted,

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Speaker 4: and they're very conservative people who have always voted on moralities,

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Speaker 4: including anti choice lifestyle. And for the longest time, I

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Speaker 4: was told because I was adopted, I should be anti

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Speaker 4: choice or I wouldn't have existed. This whole like guilt

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Speaker 4: trip onto me about that, making it seem like I

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Speaker 4: was in the wrong for saying but wait. The the

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Speaker 4: biggest conversation is you're telling me that you really feel

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Speaker 4: like you can't trust me as an adult, as a person,

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Speaker 4: as an individual to make my own choices in life,

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Speaker 4: and that it needed to be dictated by a government.

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Speaker 4: But nothing else does. Okay, But it took me a

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Speaker 4: long time to get out of that headspin, because you know,

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Speaker 4: you want to acclimate and be a part of whatever

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Speaker 4: your society or community you're in. Give me a while

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Speaker 4: to figure out, Oh god, that's gross. What is happening,

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Speaker 4: you know, and what kind of control had it on there?

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Speaker 4: So honestly, if you'd asked me that twenty years ago,

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Speaker 4: we would have had a different conversation.

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Speaker 2: Okay, no, that I mean, that's fair and like it.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of indoctrination that we all

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Speaker 2: feel with them. I'm almost sort of lucky in that,

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Speaker 2: like I was always just like such one of the

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Speaker 2: bad kids that I was pretty young when like my

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Speaker 2: friends started having abortions. And I'm so grateful that they

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Speaker 2: had that opportunity because a lot of them were able

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Speaker 2: to like get out of the situations they were in,

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Speaker 2: you know, because they had that access. But well, today's

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Speaker 2: heroes have come to similar conclusions that we have about

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Speaker 2: being pro people deciding what to do with their own bodies.

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Speaker 2: And because okay, people are going to talk about fucking

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Speaker 2: cool and I'm going to be talking about direct action

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Speaker 2: abortion access, and in particular, I'm going to focus on

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Speaker 2: one crew of women out of Chicago, the Notorious Jane Collective.

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Speaker 4: Yes, oh, this is one of my favorites. Come on,

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Speaker 4: I'm ready, let's go.

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Speaker 2: And so I think actually the podcast that you're on,

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Speaker 2: I don't think you are the host of this particular episode,

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Speaker 2: but the podcast you run actually did an interview with

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Speaker 2: the founder of Jane, Heather Booth. I just want to

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Speaker 2: acknowledge that, and so it was fucking cool and I

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Speaker 2: listened to that while I was getting ready for this

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Speaker 2: one and before I start getting too deep into it.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to talk about abortion, right and so

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Speaker 2: I'm going to be talking about how it is and

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Speaker 2: isn't a women's issue in the modern context. I want

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Speaker 2: to acknowledge upfront that abortion is not just a women's issue.

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Speaker 2: A plenty of people who are not women can get

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Speaker 2: pregnant and might not want to be whether that's some

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Speaker 2: trans men, some non binary people, and some intersex people

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Speaker 2: who can all get pregnant. And I will say that

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Speaker 2: one day it's as likely as not that some trans

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Speaker 2: woman is going to get pregnant. And there's this meme

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Speaker 2: floating around that I really like, is that what will

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Speaker 2: really drive the right wing into a rage is when

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Speaker 2: the first trans woman gets pregnant. It's when the first

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Speaker 2: trans woman chooses to have an abortion. But I also

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Speaker 2: will say that so it's not just a women's issue,

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Speaker 2: but it is also a women's issue as well, and

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Speaker 2: I don't want to cut that out of the conversation either.

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Speaker 2: And I spent a while trying to figure out to

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Speaker 2: phrase all this right because it's a kind of a

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Speaker 2: moving target to understand how we talk about this stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so I would say the history of the limitation of

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Speaker 2: abortion access is entirely entangled with the history of misogyny

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Speaker 2: and with controlling women's bodies and denying us agency. And

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Speaker 2: there's plenty of women who can't get pregnant, whether it's

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Speaker 2: because of age, surgeries, hormone shifts, the way we were born.

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Speaker 2: But something doesn't need to affect like every single woman

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Speaker 2: to be a woman's say, to be something that affects

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Speaker 2: all of us, because patriarchal society wanting to control women's

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Speaker 2: bodies doesn't stop with the women who can get pregnant, right,

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Speaker 2: They want to control everybody. So I guess what I

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Speaker 2: want to say to anyone's listening and just to kind

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Speaker 2: of provide the context that I'm coming from, is that

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Speaker 2: when I'm talking about abortion access, I'm trying to talk

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Speaker 2: about it from both of these angles at once, to

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Speaker 2: sort of intersecting axes of oppression is people with the

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Speaker 2: ability to give birth and people who are women, which

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Speaker 2: is very often an intersection, right, but not always. And

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Speaker 2: then of course we're talking about shit that happened like

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Speaker 2: fifty years ago, right, And so a lot of the

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Speaker 2: existing language about the people that we're going to be

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Speaker 2: talking about will be referring to people as women and

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Speaker 2: will be approaching it primarily from this lens of being

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Speaker 2: a women's issue, and I'm trying to, well, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to try and be more directly inclusive throughout. I'm not

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Speaker 2: trying to like cast judgment on these people who framed

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Speaker 2: it in the ways that they understood it is the

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Speaker 2: best way to frame it. So that's my disclaimer. They

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Speaker 2: spent more time on than like the rest.

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Speaker 4: Of the as it has to you have to though, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so abortion in legality, right, Abortion has been a

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Speaker 2: contentious issue since forever, and sometimes it's about morality, Like

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Speaker 2: on an individual level, a lot of people are against

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Speaker 2: abortion because of what they consider morality, and some religious

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Speaker 2: groups teach that life begins at conception or at the quickening,

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Speaker 2: which is when a pregnant person can first feel the

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Speaker 2: baby moving, which is usually about halfway through the pregnancy.

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Speaker 2: It happens I guess a couple weeks earlier in pregnancies,

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Speaker 2: after the first pregnancy that a person has. Other people

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Speaker 2: claim that life begins at viability, which is when the

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Speaker 2: fetus would be able to survive outside the womb, which

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Speaker 2: is usually around seven months. And then other religions and

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Speaker 2: other concepts and faiths teach that life begins at birth.

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Speaker 2: And it isn't as like simple as like this religion

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Speaker 2: believes this. This religion believes that there's not like one

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Speaker 2: answer about like how Christianity believes or whatever. Right, It's

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Speaker 2: all different and changing at different times. I also, frankly

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Speaker 2: don't care on some level like whether or not I

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Speaker 2: am or I'm not a religious person, Like I have

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Speaker 2: no interest in letting religion dictate the laws of society.

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Speaker 2: So there's this case that a lot of people make

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Speaker 2: that the restriction of abortion has nothing to do with

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Speaker 2: morality or religion, but instead about the control of bodies,

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Speaker 2: right of women's bodies and women's bodies. And then like

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Speaker 2: by extension all of the people who are in the

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Speaker 2: periphery of womanhood and I don't know, it's like and

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Speaker 2: sometimes they're relieve and open about this desire where it's

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Speaker 2: like literally just about controlling reproduction. A lot of countries

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Speaker 2: they say that motherhood is like patriotic, right, because really,

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day, it's about this, like, well,

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Speaker 2: we want more babies to throw into the you know,

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Speaker 2: gristmill of labor and war and shit.

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Speaker 4: If you are looking at like QAnon level of uh

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Speaker 4: of the mom groups is an interesting fight they have

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Speaker 4: and a part of that solution, and part of that

434
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,160
Speaker 4: fight is to burn their own babies, meaning like typically

435
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 4: white children, and making sure that that lineage continues in

436
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,439
Speaker 4: this big olf fight in the QAnon war. It's a

437
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 4: whole rabbit hole in itself.

438
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 2: I wish I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me

439
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 2: this terrible thing that's happening. It's like it doesn't surprise

440
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 2: me at no, no, it doesn't surprise me at all.

441
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,960
Speaker 2: But I'm like, wait, like, of course they're doing that.

442
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 2: God damn it.

443
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm so sorry.

444
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, it's these.

445
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 4: Are the no. I will tell you. I probably should

446
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 4: have given you that heads up as on our show

447
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 4: on stuff, Mo'm never told you I am the pessimist. Okay, Okay,

448
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,680
Speaker 4: that brings out the unfun facts. So apologies in advance.

449
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 2: No, no, no, that's perfect because I've tried to do this,

450
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 2: Like I mean, it's ironic. I picked this name kill

451
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: Joy and then I like dedicate my life to trying

452
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: to spread revolutionary hope.

453
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 4: But I love that. I love that. I love that

454
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 4: we have this balance today.

455
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 3: It's perfect fun fun facts with Samantha McVay show.

456
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,360
Speaker 4: They're welcome. You should have a show literally just called that.

457
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 2: I want to be guessed on unfund facts.

458
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 4: It should be fun facts, Samantha. Okay, you need to

459
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 4: start this up. You're the creator of all shows. Let's

460
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 4: do this. I'm in, I'm in.

461
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 2: Okay. So the first European government to legalize abortion was

462
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 2: Revolutionary Russia as far as I can research, and in

463
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,640
Speaker 2: October nineteen twenty they legalized abortion. And some people will

464
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 2: talk about how they did from a feminist point of view.

465
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 2: A lot of other stuff will say they did it

466
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 2: because they were all starving and so they just were like, uh,

467
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 2: it's okay to not have babies for this moment, right,

468
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of a strong case

469
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 2: to be made for that that they didn't actually some

470
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 2: of them cared, some of them didn't care, I don't know.

471
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 2: Because they also got rid of abortion again various points,

472
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 2: and then they had like huge pro natal PR campaigns,

473
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 2: and then of course Stalin made it illegal again because

474
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 2: he's Stalin and he only does bad things. And Okay,

475
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,440
Speaker 2: the law that he passed on June twenty seventh, nineteen

476
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: thirty six, is the most Soviet name I've ever heard,

477
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 2: which is the Decree on the Prohibition of Abortions, the

478
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 2: improvement of Material aide to women in childbirth, the establishment

479
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 2: of state assistants to parents of large families, and the

480
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 2: extension of lying in homes, nursery schools in kindergartens, the

481
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 2: tight you know, of criminal punishment and the non payment

482
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 2: of alimony, and on certain modifications on levorce legislation that.

483
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 4: Rose right off the tongue. That was amazing, It was

484
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 4: so beautiful.

485
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:32,360
Speaker 3: Good jobs on certain modifications in divorce legislation. Yeah, all right,

486
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 3: I'm just making sure I got yeah, yeah, okay, cool,

487
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 3: cool obviously.

488
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then one of the other times that abortion

489
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: was legalized in Europe. I actually think was really cool

490
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 2: and not like, oh, maybe why are they doing this?

491
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 2: But during the Spanish Civil War in I guess probably

492
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty six or so, I don't remember the actual year,

493
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,160
Speaker 2: and an anarchist became the first men, the first woman

494
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 2: minister of health and like one of the first women

495
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 2: ministers in government in Europe. This is anarchist woman. Federica

496
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 2: Monsani became the Minister of Health of the Second Spanish

497
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: Republic and she legalized abortion because it was the right

498
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 2: thing to do. And then Franco successfully invaded the special

499
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 2: Second Spanish Republic and it was a whole war thing

500
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: that happened, and it didn't really go very well, and

501
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 2: Spain got fascist owned instead of legalized abortion. So close

502
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: to getting it right, I know, I almost like don't

503
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: know where to stick this. But one of the things

504
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: that I think about a lot when I'm talking about

505
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: how like why are they making abortion illegal? Is it

506
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,959
Speaker 2: morality or is it social control? And I think that

507
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: as soon as you start throwing birth control into it too,

508
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: it becomes so obvious that it's not about morality, it's

509
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 2: about social control. Because all of the same stuff that's

510
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: illegalizing abortion is like, you know, I'm going to do

511
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: a whole episode about the birth control fight at some point,

512
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 2: But it's just this whole parallel thing where basically they're like, right,

513
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 2: you shouldn't have sex, that doesn't make babies. That's wrong, right,

514
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 2: it's because they.

515
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 4: Just which is by the way, a new headline that

516
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 4: I've seen all of a sudden coming back round from

517
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 4: the right wing conversation is the same narrative of you

518
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 4: shouldn't have sex is for making children. If you can't

519
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 4: handle having children, you shouldn't be having sex. Like this

520
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 4: new I've seen it trending in I was like, what

521
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 4: is happening? Are we bringing that back again? Is this

522
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 4: really the nineteen eighties, seventies, sixties however, which, by the way,

523
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 4: abortion didn't happen till like the nineteen sixties in the US,

524
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 4: Like why are we back here? But yeah, it's I

525
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 4: agree with you, this whole level of like when we

526
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 4: really look at it, obviously, that's the conversation we've had

527
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 4: about is it really your pro life? Are you just

528
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 4: anti choice? Like that's the conversation.

529
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 2: Totally, No, totally yeah, because yeah, you're literally anti people

530
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 2: choosing to have like, you know, sane, consensual whatever, the phrasiness,

531
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 2: the safe sex that's consensual and happening and all that shit.

532
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: But then, okay, so when I'm doing all this like

533
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: preface stuff, I'm going to get to Jane soon. A

534
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: lot of feminists, including today heroes, they weren't necessarily even

535
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 2: just fighting for the legalization of abortion. One of the

536
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 2: cases that I want to make because it kept coming

537
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 2: up as I was researching these people and a lot

538
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 2: of the other abortionists at the time, is especially the

539
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 2: feminists and the women involved, was that they were fighting

540
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 2: for the demedicalization of reproductive health. Basically, they were fighting

541
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 2: to take reproductive health like birth control, abortion, pregnancy and

542
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 2: birth out of the patriarchal field of western medicine and

543
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 2: to have direct control over their own bodies, which doesn't

544
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 2: necessarily mean like diy at home abortions, but it means

545
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 2: abortions performed by competent practitioners, whether they're in the medical

546
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: field or not. And there's this argument that my friends

547
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: have made very convincingly to me that I tend to

548
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: believe that a lot of the shit that's going on

549
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: in the witch hunts in Europe in medieval Europe were

550
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 2: basically a lot of it was about like, here are

551
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 2: these people who are health practitioners who are not tied

552
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: into the sort of male and academic field of health

553
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 2: that we're trying to build, and so we should murder

554
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: them all because we want to be the ones controlling

555
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: everyone's bodies instead of like all of these women and

556
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 2: actually a lot of I think gay men and other

557
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: people involved in sort of like swept up in the

558
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 2: whatever periphery of women. I don't know how to describe this.

559
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: And so it's just it's hard to control population in

560
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 2: people's bodies if there's all these like wild and free

561
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 2: practitioners running around helping people control their own bodies. And

562
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: one of the things that's so interesting about this argument

563
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 2: is that it basically means the medicalization of reproductive health

564
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: was a violent process that required mass murder. You just

565
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: killed all the practitioners, as you probably guessed anyone listening

566
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 2: to this. I'm not here to convince you to be

567
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 2: pro choice, because I'm assuming that you are anyone who's

568
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 2: listening to this, and if you're not, you should. Maybe

569
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: you'll get something out of this episode. Maybe listening to

570
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: it would be good for you. Maybe you'll just hate me,

571
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 2: that's fine. And because I'm not really here to like

572
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 2: balance the moral weight of abortion today, I just want

573
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: to like celebrate heroic, badass women who refuse to go

574
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 2: along with this US society that told them they couldn't

575
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,320
Speaker 2: recontrol their own reproductive health. And so I want to

576
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 2: celebrate the Jaine collective.

577
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 4: Amen, yay, Amen, I'm proud.

578
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: Sometime around nineteen sixty five, there's a lot of arguments

579
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 2: about exactly what year had happened. I'm actually the person

580
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 2: who does know is alive, but lots of people writing

581
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 2: lots of different things on the Internet and in books

582
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 2: because everything doesn't match up with this off anyway. In

583
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty five is a white Jewish socialist student in

584
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: Chicago named Heather Booth who got a call from her

585
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: friend and her friend was despondent. His sister was pregnant

586
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: and she didn't know what to do. Abortion was illegal

587
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: in every state in the US at that point, with

588
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: a few medical exceptions here and there, different in different places,

589
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: and Heather hadn't given much thought to abortion access until

590
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 2: that moment. But she was like, all right, I'll see

591
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 2: what I can do. And basically, just with that willingness

592
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: to step up when someone needed help, she started one

593
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 2: of the most radical and interesting abortion access groups in history,

594
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,719
Speaker 2: which is a lesson to everyone that sometimes you just

595
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: step up when the call to adventure happens. This isn't

596
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 2: part of my script. I'm griffing badly.

597
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 4: I like that, but yeah, I agree like that. We

598
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 4: see we're seeing it happen. Unfortunately, as it has become

599
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 4: evident that we're back into this fight again, we've almost

600
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 4: like started over, and it feels like we're starting over

601
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 4: into this point, and funds are being created to make

602
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 4: sure that if it does happen, if it's outright ban

603
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 4: and I know we're going to talk about this probably

604
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 4: in a bit, that we will have an underground network

605
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 4: essentially to continue to help the people who need this access.

606
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 4: And I know it happened in Chile too and Poland too,

607
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 4: where the neighboring countries have set up these funds. As

608
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 4: Poland has passed one of the strictest abortion restrictions, that

609
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 4: they're now making an underground essentially a network for them

610
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 4: to get access when they need it by giving as

611
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 4: many people uh travel reimbursement as well as places to

612
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 4: stay to get in that plan, be all of those things.

613
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 4: So yeah, I think unfortunately, I'm so excited about talking

614
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 4: about this story, and I'm so glad you're bringing this

615
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 4: up because we are repeating history and we may have

616
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 4: to look at this as an example of all right, y'all,

617
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 4: let's get it, let's get it together. We've got to

618
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 4: do something and become radical essentially.

619
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I what are you talking about? This is

620
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: a history podcast. History doesn't have lessons for the present.

621
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,479
Speaker 4: Right, we don't have to learn history.

622
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 3: What.

623
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just random that I picked this topic. No,

624
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: I really like and please continue with the how it

625
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: ties into everything because it's like.

626
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 4: Lovely, Oh, you're speaking to my soul. We're gonna be

627
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 4: the friends what I need.

628
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: So good? Okay. So Heather Booth was already a radical

629
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 2: right in nineteen sixty four, she joined Freedom Summer, which

630
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 2: is when activists flooded to Mississippi to defy the KKK

631
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 2: and register black voters and set up schools and libraries,

632
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 2: which didn't go smoothly. At least seven people were murdered

633
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: by right wing forces, including black residents and both white

634
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 2: and black civil rights activists from outside the area, and

635
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: something like seventy black homes, churches, and businesses were bombed

636
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: or burned, eighty activists were beaten, and more than a

637
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 2: thousand activists ended up arrested, including Heather Booth. During all

638
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 2: of this, it also wasn't like it's like, it wasn't

639
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 2: perfect and rosy either. I mean, I just described all

640
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: the horrible stuff that happened, but it also led to

641
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: some resentment, at least according to some of the sources

642
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: I read. I suspect that people had a lot of

643
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: different opinions about what happened. Some local black residents felt

644
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 2: that there was a kind of a paternalistic, white northern

645
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 2: savior thing that had just happened, and they weren't necessarily

646
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 2: excited about it. But I believe that that is, you know,

647
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: people have very different opinions about things, and it's sort

648
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 2: of a critical, if complicated chapter the civil rights movement,

649
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: and Heather Booth was part of it. And I think

650
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 2: this is also important because it's always important to talk

651
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 2: about how all of the people fighting for all these

652
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: things always come from intersections or believe in intersectionality, even

653
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: if that term didn't exist yet, you know, Like I

654
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: did another episode once on abolitionists and realized that all

655
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 2: the abolitionists were feminists, and all the feminist were abolitionists,

656
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 2: not universally, but the ones who were cool enough to

657
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:18,480
Speaker 2: make it into my podcast. And so anyway, so it's

658
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 2: not coming out of nowhere this, you know. So she's

659
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 2: back in Chicago after that summer, and she was helping

660
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 2: form feminist groups where women talked about the issues facing them,

661
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 2: a process that a few years later got more widespread

662
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,479
Speaker 2: and be called consciousness raising groups. It was a big

663
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 2: part of feminist movement in the United States in the

664
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: sixties and seventies. And this is probably how she ended

665
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: up being the person her friend thought to call. But

666
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 2: that's just conjecture. I don't know why a friend called her.

667
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: So she gets the call and she asks around the

668
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 2: medical community within the civil rights movement, basically being like,

669
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 2: you know, who can perform an abortion on my friend?

670
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: You know who wants to commit a felony really quick?

671
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,840
Speaker 2: And the doctor she eventually reached, as best as I

672
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,959
Speaker 2: can tell, was a surge named TRM. Howard, who gets

673
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 2: left out of this history sometimes and not always, which

674
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 2: is a shame, because he's a really fucking interesting guy.

675
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 2: He was more famous as a civil rights leader than

676
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 2: he was as a doctor. He was one of the

677
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 2: most prominent non socialist voices in the movement. Most of

678
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: the civil rights movement was substantially further left than this guy.

679
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 2: But you know, he's black man fighting for civil rights.

680
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 3: I don't know.

681
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 2: So during the Emmett Till case, which again I'm I'm

682
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:27,919
Speaker 2: going to tell you about cool people, I say about

683
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 2: all these horrible things that happened. Emmett Till is a

684
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: fourteen year old black kid who was brutally murdered by

685
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: a white mob in Mississippi in nineteen fifty five. And

686
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 2: during that case, Howard helped run the search for evidence,

687
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: and I believe that's where he became more prominent within

688
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 2: the civil rights movement. And during that trial, discriminatory gun

689
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 2: laws wouldn't let HI own weapons, but he did anyway,

690
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 2: and he kept a pistol and a secret compartment in

691
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: his car, and he slept with a Thompson machine gun

692
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,399
Speaker 2: at the foot of his bed. And there's this whole

693
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 2: history that I also will want hopefully one day cover

694
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 2: about hidden within the civil rights movement. There was actually

695
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 2: a huge move Even if the pulical action was largely

696
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 2: non violent, people weren't people were fine with self defense,

697
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 2: and a lot of that's movement was armed. So he

698
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: was very politically engaged. He runs for Republican. He runs

699
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 2: as a Republican for Congress in nineteen fifty eight. He

700
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: doesn't win. But he also fought against the criminalization of

701
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 2: sex work, which rules. And he was a surgeon and

702
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,399
Speaker 2: a legal abortionist, which he considered part of his civil

703
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 2: rights work, which also just rules. And he was arrested

704
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty four and nineteen sixty five for providing

705
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:30,319
Speaker 2: abortions in Chicago, although he was never convicted. So Heather

706
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 2: Booth reaches out to him and he's like, yeah, bring

707
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 2: your friend's sister to my office. So Ward gets around

708
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 2: quickly that Heather Booth has the hookup with safe abortionists

709
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: because obviously, regardless of law, people are still getting abortions

710
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 2: in the United States at this point. Right, Yeah, I'm

711
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 2: shocked because it's weird. It's almost like it anyway.

712
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 4: Right, just because it's outlawed.

713
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: What, Yeah, we thought we got rid of that.

714
00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,959
Speaker 4: We made a law and it definitely stopped everything. For sure,

715
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 4: it didn't make everything else dangerous for the low socioeconomic

716
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 4: status and easy access for the rich people who still

717
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 4: kept getting abortions.

718
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 2: What wait, did you read my script? Did I share it?

719
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,919
Speaker 4: We're just in tune. What I'm saying is we're best

720
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 4: friends to remind people I'm their best friend when they

721
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 4: don't know. It's not a tactic.

722
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 2: That's the name of your podcast. Should be your best

723
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 2: friend tells you bad things.

724
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 4: I'm your best friend. Obviously that's the perfect title.

725
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally, we're professional.

726
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 3: I love.

727
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 4: I have to say that every few hours, just to

728
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 4: remind myself and others around me love.

729
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, speaking of being a professional, Margaret's you know what

730
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 3: time it is?

731
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 2: Is it time to tell you about how great it

732
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 2: is to eat potatoes and other healthy food direct from

733
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: gardens instead of and how everyone should grow their own food,

734
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 2: and how this podcast is sponsored by the concept of

735
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:06,840
Speaker 2: self reliance and inter reliance among healthy communities and no

736
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 2: other sponsors at all, except for a few that might

737
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: slip in after I stopped talking. Yes, here's some ads

738
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 2: and we're back. I hope you enjoyed those ads. I

739
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: hope all of them were for really positive things, and

740
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 2: none of them were for bad things, which is definitely

741
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: the way that advertising works.

742
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 4: I was gonna say, if they're not, it's Robert Evans's fault.

743
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: I can say that, Yes, that's true.

744
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,280
Speaker 3: Everything is Robert. Anything you don't like is Robert's fault.

745
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 3: That's how I live my life.

746
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 4: That's true.

747
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: Though.

748
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 2: Robert is in charge of making all the decisions about

749
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: advertising for the network, and if you have problems with it,

750
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,920
Speaker 2: you should hit him up on Twitter.

751
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 4: Director of Tweets, and your emails to him please thank

752
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 4: you very much, him, not me, thank you.

753
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,720
Speaker 2: All right. So it's hard to keep stats on illegal shit.

754
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,359
Speaker 2: For some weird reason, people don't like necessarily always telling

755
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: the government when they do illegal shit. But one nineteen

756
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 2: fifty five study estimated that anywhere between two hundred thousand

757
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 2: and a one million two hundred thousand abortions were happening

758
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 2: every year in the United States in nineteen fifty five.

759
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 2: Around nineteen seventy, which is still three years before Roe v. Wade,

760
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 2: the claimed number is more like one to two million,

761
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,239
Speaker 2: But who knows abortions are happening. Rich women get the

762
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 2: hookup from their private doctors, or they fly to the UK,

763
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 2: where abortion law is generally more lenient and for less

764
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: privileged folks, it's a lot less rosy. The underground abortion

765
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 2: scene was like a mixed match of like sketchy grifters

766
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: and then well meaning and competent doctors, but you didn't

767
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 2: necessarily have a way to determine which one you're going

768
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 2: to get. And almost all of them are men, and

769
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,240
Speaker 2: a lot of them are also connected to organized crime,

770
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 2: including some of the good ones. I think some of

771
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 2: the good ones were just like outright criminals attached to

772
00:39:59,120 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 2: organized crime.

773
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was really interesting to see that layer, as

774
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 4: when you start like finding out these backgrounds, you're like, wow, wow, okay, okay,

775
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 4: mafia Okay, Yeah, they're going to come up a couple

776
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 4: of times in this story, woo intrigue.

777
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: Although not as much as they could because some of

778
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 2: the people involved in this are all still alive, right,

779
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: and so I'm not trying to make conjectures about certain things.

780
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 4: Let's not endanger anybody today.

781
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, okay. So, as an interesting note, Chicago actually

782
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: had one of the only women doctors that I found

783
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,399
Speaker 2: when I was looking at women abortionists pre chain. I'm

784
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 2: sure there were more, but doctor Josephine Gabler performed more

785
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: than eighteen thousand abortions throughout the nineteen thirties, and her

786
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 2: patients were referred to her from almost two hundred different

787
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 2: medical facilities, and basically she would pay a kickback to

788
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 2: all the medical facilities that would send her patients. They

789
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 2: would get a quarter of the abortion fee because everything

790
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: is sketchy in crime Land. But she was also a

791
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: I believe, a safe and competent abortionist. And then in

792
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 2: nineteen forty she sold her practice to her receptionist, Adam Martin,

793
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: and she takes over the practice, but she actually hires

794
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 2: outside practitioners to perform the actual abortions because she's a receptionist,

795
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 2: not a surgeon or whatever. But in the nineteen forties

796
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: and fifties, abortion law started being enforced more strenuously. It

797
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 2: was always illegal, but it was like kind of a

798
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: lot of times in a lot of places. I was like, well,

799
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 2: if you don't kill anyone, we aren't necessarily going to

800
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,360
Speaker 2: do anything. But then in nineteen forties, nineteen fifties, unfortunately,

801
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 2: right when this receptionist takes over, abortion law gets enforced

802
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 2: more strenuously, which of course shudders the safest abortion clinics

803
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: in the country and does nothing to stop women from

804
00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: meeting abortions. So Heather Booth is compiling all the names

805
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 2: of the reasonable providers that she can run across, basically

806
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: keeping track of who could be trusted to be safe,

807
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: both like kind of legally safe, like I mean not

808
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 2: it's illegal, but you know, to be careful, also to

809
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: be medically safe, and also to be sexually safe, because

810
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 2: there was a whole problem with abortion providers creeping on

811
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 2: the patients in their care, which obviously legalization didn't stop.

812
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: But you know, that's why, even when things are legal,

813
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 2: we still need people to advocate for us. And so

814
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 2: more and more people start coming to her for referrals,

815
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 2: but she starts getting busier. In nineteen sixty seven, she

816
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 2: marries Paul Booth, who's an activist she met at a

817
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 2: sit in demonstration against the draft in the Vietnam War.

818
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 2: Because again, everything's intersectional, he went on to help found

819
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 2: Students for Democratic Society. By nineteen sixty nine, they had

820
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 2: two kids, and she had a job, and she was

821
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 2: in grad school and she couldn't handle running like underground

822
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 2: crime ring all by herself, so she called up a

823
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,319
Speaker 2: bunch of other activists women and got them in on

824
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 2: her underground crime ring. And that's how Jane started. And

825
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 2: Jane wasn't called Jane. It was the not quite as

826
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:52,760
Speaker 2: bad as a Soviet name, but it was the Abortion

827
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 2: Counciling Service of the Chicago Women's Liberation Union a little

828
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: bit shorter, yeah, And they were like, you know, just

829
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 2: let's just call it. They mostly called it the Service

830
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 2: within their own ranks, apparently, but they picked Jane to

831
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 2: be like kind of like the every woman name, right,

832
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 2: like you know, we're all Jane or whatever, like Jane Doe.

833
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,600
Speaker 2: And history remembers that it's the Jain Collective, which is

834
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 2: a better name than the Abortion Council the Service of

835
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 2: the Chicago Women's Liberation Union.

836
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 4: Yes, it's a cooler name. It definitely like rings like, oh,

837
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 4: this is a good mystery novel.

838
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 2: Let's go oh good point yeah, no, totally yeah. And

839
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 2: then they get like the sense of intrigue in your life.

840
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 2: And if you're going to go do a crime, right,

841
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 2: you should get some intrigue in your life out of

842
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: it. It shouldn't be like the cold like Bureau of Crime

843
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 2: where you like go in and they're like, please fill

844
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 2: out a form for the crime you would like to commit,

845
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 2: and you're like, uh huh. They're like, we need it

846
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,800
Speaker 2: in triplicate. No, it should be fucking like exciting the collective.

847
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 4: I mean, come on, as the Jaine Collective, so obviously

848
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 4: they're badass espionage parts to this somehow, in like secret

849
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 4: coded languages and all that kind of stuff. Come on,

850
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 4: you gotta be good.

851
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:03,840
Speaker 2: I can't wait till we can talk about more of

852
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 2: the underground parts of the history. But I am not wishing.

853
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: I wouldn't wish them all along happy lives. Okay, So

854
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 2: they spend months planning out the whole thing before they launch.

855
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: They're trying to be really careful with their crime ring

856
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 2: they and also it's not just because it's crime. They

857
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: actually they're doing this because they care, right, And so

858
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 2: they're like, all right, what are we going to do

859
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 2: if one of our patients has a medical emergency? What

860
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 2: are we going to do if someone dies? What are

861
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 2: we going to do if one of us is arrested?

862
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 2: What are we going to do if one of our

863
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: doctors is arrested? They like mapped all this out for months.

864
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 2: They mapped it all very carefully. And then they opened

865
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 2: and they decided to keep minimal records and have different

866
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 2: volunteers handle patient contact and doctor contact because again crime.

867
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 2: And they also got an answering machine, which is like

868
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: a weird it's only notable to me because it's like

869
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 2: a nice visual detail because I think at the time

870
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: it's like a huge reel to reel machine. And then

871
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 2: and then they put up ads in all the student

872
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 2: and underground newspapers in Chicago and they say pregnant don't

873
00:44:58,120 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 2: want to be called Jane.

874
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 4: It's so snazzy. I like it, I know, I know,

875
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 4: like it was a whole system.

876
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I love it.

877
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 4: It's kind of like they're trying to if you do

878
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 4: know during war times, I guess they were doing the

879
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 4: messages telegrams and trying to decode things. It was this level.

880
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 4: It is phenomenal.

881
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we will hopefully never need it again. But

882
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 2: it's an interesting anecdote about history.

883
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 4: Don't make me cry, come on, Okay.

884
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 2: So when they first started, they worked with a bunch

885
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 2: of different abortionists, and slowly they started using one guy

886
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: more and more, and some accounts call him Nick, and

887
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 2: some accounts call him Mike, and all of the accounts

888
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 2: put his name in like quotes, as gonna say, they

889
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 2: put in air quotes. But that's what I'm doing, is

890
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 2: the air quotes. You also see it because Nick Mike

891
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 2: is a crime guy, Like that's his thing, through and through.

892
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 2: Like one account just refers to him as like a

893
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 2: con man over and over again. But it's a very

894
00:45:55,200 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 2: positive account about like their con man, right. And some

895
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 2: accounts say he was a mafia abortionist, and some accounts

896
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 2: say he was independent and on the run from both

897
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:07,800
Speaker 2: cops and the mafia. I straight up don't not to

898
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,239
Speaker 2: believe if you've heard one way or the other, I'd

899
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:09,760
Speaker 2: be curious.

900
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 4: But yeah, I did hear a link to the mafia

901
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 4: at one point in time. But again, like that's kind

902
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 4: of like, this doesn't make me make it more intriguing

903
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 4: that this is what's happened, or doesn't make it more sinister.

904
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 2: Right, Well, what's going to make it both more intriguing

905
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: and sinister is that at least one account wants you

906
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 2: to know that Nick Mike is the sexiest man alive.

907
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 4: Oh wait, wait, I missed that. As much research as

908
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 4: I've done and trying to get this stuff that I

909
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 4: did not see so now like, well, I gotta have

910
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 4: a picture, come on, But I guess we don't have

911
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 4: a picture Margaret photo.

912
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 2: No, I don't think there's pictures of quote Nick Mike.

913
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 4: We don't actually have an identity for him. He wasn't around,

914
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 4: but they want to know that he is a babe.

915
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 4: Like I need to know who said this, So the

916
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:55,919
Speaker 4: Jane Collective or something.

917
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:57,439
Speaker 2: It was one of the Jaine collective. I can't remember

918
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 2: off the top of my head. It wasn't Jody, because

919
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 2: it was someone who would go and meet with him,

920
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 2: and it's in one of her accounts. It's from an interview.

921
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 2: I think it's in the There's a zine that came

922
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 2: out in like two thousand and three or four called

923
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: Jane and that has a lot of the interviews and shit,

924
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: and that was where I pulled the Sexiest Man Alive

925
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 2: part from and that that stays in my memory.

926
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:16,839
Speaker 4: You know, that is amazing.

927
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm always looking for the subtext, you know, and

928
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 2: like like who's who's fucking who?

929
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 4: And like and this has become a DRW Like not

930
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 4: only has it become like an espionage things, it's kind

931
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,720
Speaker 4: of becoming a soap opera or something along those lines

932
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 4: for someone to have to put that narrative in like

933
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 4: he's one of the sexiest men. I'm like, how sexy.

934
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 4: I have a feeling because it was the sexies seventies.

935
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 4: He had a mustache, I know he did. He had

936
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:42,720
Speaker 4: to have the mustache, right, totally.

937
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably in long hair, you know, like but not

938
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 2: like full hippie long hair, just like kind of a yeah.

939
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 2: I was describing this to one of my friends and

940
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 2: they were like, oh, he probably had like a leather

941
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 2: jacket and said, chow a lot, you know, And I'm

942
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 2: not convinced by the chow part.

943
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 4: I'm not convinced. I think my friend had been watching

944
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 4: a lot of is Eddie Izzard. That's amazing And that

945
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 4: turned out to be I really wish. I don't want

946
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 4: any like real because I don't want to focus on

947
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 4: him because he and himself was whatever. But the fact

948
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 4: that this was like a narrative around him is phenomenal.

949
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And when they would go meet him, at

950
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:21,919
Speaker 2: least for a while, I don't know if he stayed

951
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 2: this way all the time. He would only meet one

952
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: Jane at a time because theoretically he wanted to avoid

953
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,720
Speaker 2: conspiracy charges, and if you have three or more people

954
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,720
Speaker 2: talking about a crime, then he can get conspiracy charges.

955
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:34,920
Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to say that this is the

956
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,319
Speaker 2: way you successfully avoid conspiracy charges is you never let

957
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 2: more than one other person in the room at the

958
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 2: same time. But theoretically that was what his whole thing was.

959
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 2: And so they liked their new con man, and they

960
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 2: started working more or less exclusively with him, and they would,

961
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 2: I guess, pick him up the airport driving motel and

962
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,439
Speaker 2: they would bring him work. He wanted slightly less pay

963
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 2: than most of the other abortionists, but he was still

964
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: wasn't cheap, and he was in it for the money.

965
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 2: Most abortions at the time rant six hundred dollars to

966
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,720
Speaker 2: a thought thousand dollars, which is four to seven thousand

967
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: dollars into twenty twenty two. Jane was able to offer

968
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 2: them for five hundred at the start, which is and

969
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 2: then after about five or six full price abortions, Nick

970
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,799
Speaker 2: Mike would do a couple for cheaper, and one of

971
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 2: the founders, Jody Howard, was Mike.

972
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 3: Nick Mike is still such a funny thing to me,

973
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 3: and that the only thing we know about them is

974
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:21,439
Speaker 3: that they were hot.

975
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally, that's all you need to know. Come on,

976
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 4: ye Mike, Nick Mike. It's so funny. I want that

977
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 4: to be his first and middle name. Totally name.

978
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah he was. He never actually lied about anything.

979
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 2: He just his name was Nick. Last name Mike and

980
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 2: the first names.

981
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 4: Please. Okay, the whole around this one mysterious man anyway,

982
00:49:51,719 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 4: going on?

983
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 2: Okay, So, so one of the founders, Jody Howard, was

984
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 2: particularly close with Nick Mike. And there's some kind of

985
00:49:58,160 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 2: like subtext in what I read, But again, I'm not

986
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 2: sure to make assumptions because people might still be alive.

987
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 2: But Jody decided, and this actually makes a lot of sense, right,

988
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 2: She was like, there needs to be a woman in

989
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 2: the room as you're performing these abortions, and so she

990
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 2: started insisting, and then started insisting that he apprenticed her.

991
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 2: And Jody Howard's own entry into the movement was kind

992
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,280
Speaker 2: of interesting. She had had two kids in lymphatic cancer

993
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,040
Speaker 2: and she was pregnant for a third time, and she

994
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 2: knew that childbirth would as likely as not kill her,

995
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 2: and doctor still wouldn't let her get an abortion. Theoretically,

996
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: the law at the time was if childbirth would kill,

997
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 2: you can get an abortion. So the only way she

998
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 2: felt like she could take matters into her own hands

999
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 2: about this is she basically like, give me an abortion

1000
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 2: or I'll kill myself, and they were like, okay, you

1001
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 2: can have an abortion now, and which is just a

1002
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 2: like how cruel is a law that the only way

1003
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: that you can control your own body is by like

1004
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 2: threatening to end your own life. So she became an

1005
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: abortion access crusader, imagine that. And she figured out, she

1006
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 2: was the first one to figure out, apparently kind of quickly,

1007
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 2: that handsome man crime doc Nick Mike wasn't a doctor.

1008
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 2: He had a lot of things going for him, but

1009
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 2: a medical license was not one of the things he

1010
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 2: had going for him.

1011
00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 4: And she knew that.

1012
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 3: So once again, only thing that's actually accurate about Nick

1013
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 3: Mike is hot.

1014
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, exact possibly that was one Yama it is it is,

1015
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,439
Speaker 4: it is now in stone he'll love that.

1016
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 2: Well, if one person thinks you're sexy, you're sexy, you know, Okay.

1017
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 4: Oh god, anyway, keep going, all right, So she decides

1018
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 4: not to tell anyone at first because she's like, everyone's

1019
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 4: going to freak the fuck out.

1020
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 2: And she's like, also, like, but if he can learn it,

1021
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 2: and he's not a doctor, so can I. I'm not

1022
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 2: a doctor, And so he made him teach her. And

1023
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 2: at first Nick Mike is working out of motels, but

1024
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: then one day an angry husband comes and like is

1025
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 2: banging on the motel room door, and they realized they

1026
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: had to step up their security. So in order to

1027
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 2: make it all more mystery novel crime novel, they start

1028
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 2: renting apartments all over the city and they need to

1029
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 2: at any given time. First, they have the front where

1030
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,240
Speaker 2: all the patients come for counseling and consultation. It's where

1031
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 2: it's also where they show up on the day of

1032
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: the abortion, and they're encouraged to bring loved ones for support.

1033
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 2: And of course most people who get abortions already have children,

1034
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,239
Speaker 2: and so they provided childcare at the front as well.

1035
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 2: And working at the front was therefore this like really

1036
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 2: demanding job. You were a counselor, you were a babysitter,

1037
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:27,720
Speaker 2: and you were also like an entertainer. You were passing

1038
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 2: out like snacks and tea and soda and shit like

1039
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,840
Speaker 2: anxious boyfriends and probably girlfriends and siblings and all that shit,

1040
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 2: you know. And then you had the place that was

1041
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 2: the front, nay of the place. It's still better than

1042
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 2: the Soviet names. Actually there's also kind of sound like anyway,

1043
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 2: whatever it.

1044
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,720
Speaker 4: Looks sounds very coded and wonderfully espionage.

1045
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 2: E Yeah, totally. And so the place is the apartment

1046
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 2: where the abortion is actually performed on a bed with

1047
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:54,439
Speaker 2: like plastic and cloth sheets down. And they worked hard

1048
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 2: to make the whole experiences like on medical as possible.

1049
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 2: They work to be relaxing and inviting and communicy with

1050
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 2: people about what's going on. Some of the reports I

1051
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 2: was reading and say, this doesn't always work. Sometimes they're like, hey,

1052
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm your new best friend, you know, and

1053
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 2: they're like trying to be really nice. And then and

1054
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 2: sometimes they're like, no, this is the worst day in

1055
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 2: my life. Let's get this fucking over with me, you know.

1056
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:16,800
Speaker 2: And other times they were like, you know, friendly and stuff.

1057
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 2: Then there are the drivers who took people from one

1058
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 2: place to the other. They or rather they took people

1059
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 2: from the front to the place and from the place

1060
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,720
Speaker 2: to the front. And these were in somewhat short supply,

1061
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 2: apparently because most of the Janes were students at the

1062
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 2: University of Chicago, and a lot of them come from

1063
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 2: New York City where people just didn't have driver's licenses,

1064
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 2: so the few drivers with driver's licenses were basically it's

1065
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 2: like all of the jobs that any of the Janes

1066
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 2: were doing were incredibly important, not just the abortionists, you know.

1067
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 2: And they performed over eleven thousand abortions and like a

1068
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:51,879
Speaker 2: barely three year span, it was like nineteen sixty nine

1069
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 2: to nineteen seventy three. A later obsistrician looking at their

1070
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 2: record suggested it was as safe as any above ground

1071
00:53:57,520 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 2: legal clinic. They never had a patient die, at least

1072
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 2: not one that they performed an abortion on. They did

1073
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 2: have one time where a woman came in in bad shape.

1074
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 2: She tried and failed to enter pregnancy on her own

1075
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 2: a few different ways because making things illegals really fucked up, right,

1076
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 2: and she had a really severe infection. Jane determined it

1077
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 2: wasn't safe to operate on her, and so they insisted

1078
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 2: she'd go to the hospital, and she didn't. She went

1079
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 2: home instead. And I kind of assume, I mean, I

1080
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 2: feel like we've all been there or we've been like

1081
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 2: someone's like you really didn't see a doctor, and you're like, doctor,

1082
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 2: well look like a millionaire.

1083
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 4: You know right, I mean, And also again the stigma

1084
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,359
Speaker 4: and the judgments and if she was trying, if this

1085
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 4: person was trying to do a self abortion, that in

1086
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 4: itself tells you how a dire of a situation they

1087
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 4: felt they were in and felt like they had to

1088
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 4: do something whatever they could, and it killed them, which

1089
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 4: is what that situation leads to. When you really feel

1090
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:58,200
Speaker 4: whatever circumstance, whether it's trying to not be disapproved by

1091
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 4: the parents or the family, or or society or whatever,

1092
00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 4: having this level of being alone and trying to do

1093
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 4: whatever you can no matter the cost, and then not

1094
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 4: realizing there is another option until it's too late. That's

1095
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,399
Speaker 4: that whole level in itself that just breaks your heart

1096
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 4: in this whole situation. But I love the setup about

1097
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 4: the front and the place as you were talking about,

1098
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 4: because as I was reading about these things, the idea

1099
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,640
Speaker 4: that going to a guidecologist going to get your yearly

1100
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,720
Speaker 4: check up is frightening, going to a doctor in general

1101
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 4: is frightening as hell to me. It's probably one of

1102
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 4: those anxiety moments of like, oh my God, why do

1103
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 4: I have to be here? And to know that you're

1104
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 4: going to do something that seems that you've been told

1105
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 4: is wrong a B. So you have all of this

1106
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 4: guilt on top of that. Whatever it may be, whatever

1107
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 4: the situation is, and we don't know the outlying situation,

1108
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,960
Speaker 4: whether it is you did have consensual sex and you

1109
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:55,120
Speaker 4: didn't have protection, or because you didn't understand the way

1110
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 4: anatomy works, didn't have full understanding what was happening with you.

1111
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 4: We already know like there's sexual trauma within even normal

1112
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 4: situations that could be sexual trauma. And when I say normal,

1113
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 4: I mean consensual situations or what was consensual? Uh, like

1114
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 4: having understanding? Would these jays coming in and be like,

1115
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 4: let me counsel you and let's have a deep conversation,

1116
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 4: but also we're going to set this whole place up

1117
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 4: like a home so that you feel comfortable and like

1118
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 4: not instead of being a sterile, scary back hall like

1119
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 4: what people would search for at that point in time

1120
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 4: trying to get those illegal abortions, really feeling like these

1121
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 4: are professionals, Like that's wow, Like that's above and beyond.

1122
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 4: I love that.

1123
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that and thinking about like I mean, you know,

1124
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 2: not in anywhere the same level of scale of what

1125
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 2: some other people had to deal with. I remember the

1126
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 2: first time, just so now that listeners know way too

1127
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 2: much about my sexual history and health. I went to

1128
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 2: go at SCI screening the first time after I came

1129
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 2: out as trends and was like willing to you know,

1130
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 2: put down my actual gender on forms and things like that.

1131
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:01,399
Speaker 2: And I went to go get ice screening and like

1132
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 2: you know, and was in this stupid room with a

1133
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 2: stupid health practitioner who touched me in appropriately and like

1134
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 2: came on to me while you know, touching my genitals

1135
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 2: and like holy yeah, and I'm like and then and

1136
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 2: then I it took me a long ass time before

1137
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 2: I went and got STI screened again. You know, I'm

1138
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 2: not proud of that, and I'm sorry everyone, you know,

1139
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 2: but like but it's like and just thinking about what

1140
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 2: it must be like, yeah, like you're talking about being

1141
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:31,479
Speaker 2: in this situation where you're like, fuck it, I'm giving

1142
00:57:31,520 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 2: myself an abortion, you know. So I'm like really not

1143
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: trying to shame this person who like chose not to

1144
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 2: go to the hospital until it's too late.

1145
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 4: You know, this is a bad first and foremost, I'm

1146
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 4: so sorry that you went through that. That is bullshit

1147
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 4: on every level and it was wrong and that person

1148
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 4: should be arrested and they are assholes first and foremost. Yeah,

1149
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 4: I've had enough of my day with just people being

1150
00:57:56,280 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 4: bad people and what happened to you, Oh my god,

1151
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 4: I'm speechless in that. I hate that. Now I'm beginning

1152
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 4: to know you that whatever anyone would ever have to

1153
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 4: go through anything like that to a person that they

1154
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 4: should be able to trust. Professionals are someone that we

1155
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 4: should be able to trust. And you were kind of

1156
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 4: talking about that with the Jane's being like ugh, Heather

1157
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 4: being like, you know what, I think there needs to

1158
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 4: be a woman present so you can watch and make

1159
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 4: sure they don't feel traumatized that in itself. Oh god,

1160
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 4: I am so sorry and that should not have happened

1161
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 4: to you and that was wrong in every fucking level.

1162
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, it's funny to like, you know, like, oh,

1163
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 2: I've like barely told people this and now I've told

1164
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 2: however many people of this, but like I don't have

1165
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:41,920
Speaker 2: any I don't feel any like guilt or shame around it.

1166
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 2: I'm just angry, you know, and like right, and I'm

1167
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 2: angry that, like you know, I was like so excited

1168
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 2: like it to whatever if I talk about this too much,

1169
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 2: I'll start crying. But like, I was so excited that

1170
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 2: I could like fill out the form and actually write

1171
00:58:52,120 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 2: down that I'm like trans woman and shit like that,

1172
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 2: and it's like, oh, I'm gonna have gender firming care.

1173
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,440
Speaker 2: I've never had gender firming care. And I'm like, oh,

1174
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 2: actually be seen as a woman sucks. Sucks.

1175
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 1: You know.

1176
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's definitely just a whole different level of like,

1177
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 4: there's moments that you should be celebrating to be free.

1178
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I'm free here, I am I get

1179
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 4: to be here and be who I am, and then

1180
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 4: have this dick coming through and just ruining that moment

1181
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 4: and then honestly portraying their betraying their professionalism, betraying their profession,

1182
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 4: and showing off as like oh yeah you are evil

1183
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,200
Speaker 4: in general and therefore you should they should not be

1184
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 4: a part of this profession. I yeah, whatever, whatnot. But

1185
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 4: on top of that, yeah, that you had the audacity

1186
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 4: to take someone's hope, yeah and safety, and I hate that.

1187
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 4: I am so sorry. And again yeah, and I love

1188
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 4: yeah you being angry. Yeah you're better than I because

1189
00:59:56,080 --> 01:00:00,160
Speaker 4: I think I would like rage everywhere. But you, now,

1190
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 4: that's a whole different conversation with me.

1191
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 2: Now I am I am totally fine with rage and

1192
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:09,080
Speaker 2: anger as a way of dealing with certain issues in

1193
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 2: society and in my personal life when when people are

1194
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 2: doing things.

1195
01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then yeah, coming back to I love that

1196
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 4: the Jaine collective really kind of understood that level. And yeah,

1197
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 4: I hate that that someone died and that's not someone

1198
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 4: that they I know, like they were traumatized them, which

1199
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 4: is why we've got Their whole attitude was like we

1200
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 4: got to do better. That's why we as women. Even

1201
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:35,400
Speaker 4: though they were not doctors and medical professionals, it is concerning.

1202
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 4: I will say when I first read that, I was like, oh,

1203
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 4: it was a good idea, but understanding that they really

1204
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:45,440
Speaker 4: cared about these people that were coming in and was

1205
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,439
Speaker 4: all about giving them safety and understanding what they had

1206
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,120
Speaker 4: to do is what they had to do because the

1207
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 4: doctors were no longer coming through because they were getting

1208
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 4: like the row versus way was really coming through about

1209
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 4: who was getting penalized and who was really being targeted,

1210
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,160
Speaker 4: and so they had less and less options and why

1211
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:07,600
Speaker 4: not if they can truly do a good job. And

1212
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 4: and big thing was getting the right equipment and getting

1213
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,600
Speaker 4: sterilized equipment. I know that was a big factor in

1214
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:13,240
Speaker 4: it as well.

1215
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know who will sell you sterile medical

1216
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 2: equipment that you can use? Tell me the products? Can

1217
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 2: we get can we get a can we get sponsored

1218
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 2: by by at home abortion Care?

1219
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 4: You know one of our sponsors was playing b.

1220
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:34,479
Speaker 2: Hell yeah fuck yeah.

1221
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 4: So there you go.

1222
01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 2: Okay, well and then we're sponsored by that and whatever.

1223
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 2: This other stuff is.

1224
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 4: Back from the break. That was a long one. Let's go.

1225
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know who else kept going was was

1226
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 2: the Jain Collective because as as you were pointing out

1227
01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 2: like this brush with death like shook them up because

1228
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:03,000
Speaker 2: they I mean, it wasn't their fault, right, they didn't

1229
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 2: do anything wrong, but they care. Yeah.

1230
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was the whole point of them starting is

1231
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 4: because they wanted to prevent people from dying from this

1232
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:16,520
Speaker 4: type of process and this type of access. And so

1233
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 4: even though it had nothing to do with them, it

1234
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:22,920
Speaker 4: was still a death because of something so preventable.

1235
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I was trying to make a joke about

1236
01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 2: how they are actually just in it to make a

1237
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 2: quick buck, but it wouldn't even work because it's so

1238
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 2: obviously untrue. And so they keep going over one hundred

1239
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:35,880
Speaker 2: women work as Jane. So the course of the project, though,

1240
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 2: generally is like twenty to thirty at any given time,

1241
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 2: which is kind of interesting to have this high turnover rate, Like, oh,

1242
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 2: like it's this casual thing. You go join this like

1243
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:48,439
Speaker 2: very above ground, underground organization that's like committing felonies, which

1244
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:53,200
Speaker 2: is fucking cool. One Jane named Jeanie Gallaser Levey, and

1245
01:02:53,240 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 2: she'll come up more later. She described her first meeting

1246
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 2: that she showed up to for orientation. There were like

1247
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:01,320
Speaker 2: thirty women crammed into the tiny room. Each new volunteer

1248
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 2: was paired with a big sister who would get them

1249
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:06,480
Speaker 2: onboarded like a mentor. And at each meeting, they would

1250
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 2: pass around index cards with all of the cases that

1251
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 2: needed to be handled, and everyone would take the cards

1252
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 2: of the cases that they wanted to handle, And of

1253
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 2: course that meant they like everyone took the easy cards first,

1254
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 2: you know, and then like the big complicated ones. Everyone's like,

1255
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 2: but you know, we've all been there. And so in

1256
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one, Jody Howard finally tells the rest of

1257
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 2: the group that Sexy nick Man was not a quote

1258
01:03:28,800 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 2: unquote real doctor, and.

1259
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 4: Did we change did we change his name to Nick Man?

1260
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 2: No, Nick Mike. Sorry, I yeah, no, Nick Man, sexy man,

1261
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 2: Nick Mike.

1262
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 4: I like that better. I've mistarted. I'm mistarted, but I'm like, if.

1263
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 2: We no, no, I don't know. I probably said it wrong.

1264
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 2: Everyone who's listening knows the right answer, but we don't.

1265
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 3: If we did, that's even better, amazing, amazing.

1266
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 4: By the sexy Nick Many, sexy, sexy, sexy guy.

1267
01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 2: Uh, it's okay. So people take the news really hard, right,

1268
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 2: and the reactions fall into two camps, and half of

1269
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 2: them were like, we're no better than the back alley providers,

1270
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:11,720
Speaker 2: and the other half were like, well, if crime guy

1271
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 2: can do it, so can we. And in general, the

1272
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 2: former camp left and the latter camp stayed, and many

1273
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:20,640
Speaker 2: of the people who stayed. You know, I've read some

1274
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 2: said that half of the Jains left, and I've read

1275
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 2: other things that said that's an exaggeration. I don't know,

1276
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,160
Speaker 2: but a lot of the ones who stayed learned how

1277
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:33,960
Speaker 2: to provide abortions, and abortion was kind of having a

1278
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:35,880
Speaker 2: bit of a renaissance around this time, in the late

1279
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 2: sixties and early seventies in terms of how it was done.

1280
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 2: A lot of the abortionists. Yeah, we're sketchy back alley providers,

1281
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:44,600
Speaker 2: but the Jain Collective wasn't the only ones who are

1282
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 2: taking it seriously and caring. Other people were working their

1283
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 2: asses off to help people get abortions safely and effectively

1284
01:04:50,880 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 2: despite state repression. And we're going to talk a little

1285
01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 2: bit later, I think in part two about some of

1286
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 2: the things that the methods that people pioneered and which

1287
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 2: ones are still applicable to name which ones are not.

1288
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 2: So Nick Mike, he makes himself obsolete. He was a

1289
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 2: crime guy at the end of the day, and he's

1290
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 2: in it for the money, but he's willing to make

1291
01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:12,360
Speaker 2: himself obsolete. So he teaches a lot of Jane's how

1292
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 2: to do this because and they're like, well, we want

1293
01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 2: to charge on a hundred bucks and he's like, yeah, that's

1294
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 2: not going to happen. So he teaches them how to

1295
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 2: do it, and then he fucks off and he's just

1296
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 2: like gone. His trail goes cold. Did you ever have

1297
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 2: you ever heard anything else there is this?

1298
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 4: So like one of the things I read was that

1299
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 4: that the mafia was after him and that's why he

1300
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 4: just disappeared, But that could have been just someone trying

1301
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:35,800
Speaker 4: to make it a bigger story, and that's why we

1302
01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:38,160
Speaker 4: don't have nothing of them. But it could be as

1303
01:05:38,200 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 4: simple as he didn't want any part of it. They

1304
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:43,480
Speaker 4: it got a little hot. A lot of people were

1305
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 4: investigating different types of organizations, and because the doctors had

1306
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,439
Speaker 4: pulled out, he pulled out too. And also he didn't

1307
01:05:49,440 --> 01:05:52,120
Speaker 4: get enough money since they were trying to downgrade the cost.

1308
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:54,760
Speaker 4: So he was like, fine, never see you again. But yeah,

1309
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 4: I did hear that the mafia might have come after him.

1310
01:05:57,840 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. I like to think that he rode away into

1311
01:05:59,960 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 2: the sunset on a motorcycle while smoking and then lived

1312
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 2: to one hundred and seven. That's that's the version of him.

1313
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, sexy Nick Mike has got he's got it to

1314
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 4: be in the sunset somewhere. Yeah, for some reason, he

1315
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 4: is Mike Nick for me.

1316
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 3: But I hear him saying Nick Mike, but he is

1317
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:19,040
Speaker 3: Mike Nick for me, And you know what, that's just

1318
01:06:19,080 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 3: a personal preference.

1319
01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 4: I guess Mike Mike Nick can be whoever you need

1320
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:28,040
Speaker 4: him to be, because he's just the sexy man that

1321
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:28,640
Speaker 4: rode away.

1322
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:31,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, he really is. Apparently shows up and teaches you

1323
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 2: how to provide abortions and then rides off at the sunset.

1324
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 4: Apparently there you go, who knew this is what we

1325
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 4: needed in our lives?

1326
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the greatest part is they only needed him

1327
01:06:43,560 --> 01:06:44,280
Speaker 2: for a little.

1328
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 4: While, just a little while about right.

1329
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 2: Because he made himself obsolete. And then at that point

1330
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 2: all of the work was being done entirely by women.

1331
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:54,080
Speaker 2: And they also it wasn't just enough that they like

1332
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:56,160
Speaker 2: did it in the cold medical way. They also still

1333
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:58,200
Speaker 2: wanted to again sort of de medicalize it, and they

1334
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 2: wanted to teach clients what was happening and give them agency.

1335
01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:05,480
Speaker 2: One of the Janes Ruth Circle, in an interview said quote,

1336
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 2: it was one of the things we talked about a lot.

1337
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 2: We were not doing something to this woman. We were

1338
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:13,160
Speaker 2: doing something with this woman, and she was as much

1339
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:15,120
Speaker 2: a part of it and part of the process as

1340
01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 2: we were. So that we would talk about how we

1341
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 2: relied on them. If we got busted, you know, we

1342
01:07:19,920 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 2: would explain that they were not doing something illegal. We

1343
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:26,360
Speaker 2: were doing something illegal, but we need their help, and

1344
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 2: you know, you don't talk about it and we have

1345
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:31,360
Speaker 2: to keep quiet. So I like that. They like basically

1346
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 2: they are like, look, because it wasn't illegal to get

1347
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 2: an abortion, was illegal to give an abortion, so the

1348
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 2: Janes were taking all of the legal risk. But they

1349
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 2: basically brought everyone in and were like, look like you

1350
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 2: rely on us, we need to rely on you, And

1351
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,920
Speaker 2: I think that's cool, right, Yeah, And not all of

1352
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 2: them performed abortion, some of them. Everyone took tasks that

1353
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 2: suited them best. They were callback Jane's who talked to

1354
01:07:54,320 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 2: the patients, and big Janes, who would handle the coordination.

1355
01:07:57,600 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 2: At least one Jane later pointed out that decision making

1356
01:07:59,920 --> 01:08:02,920
Speaker 2: was kind of fraught within the collective. They tended to

1357
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:06,040
Speaker 2: suppress internal conflict and so everyone will like stay focused

1358
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:07,920
Speaker 2: on the task and we don't have time to address

1359
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:10,480
Speaker 2: the you know, power dynamics and the other issues happening.

1360
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:13,280
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna try to like single them out for this.

1361
01:08:13,520 --> 01:08:17,559
Speaker 2: Every activist organization I've ever heard of does this, right,

1362
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 2: It's like something that we just need to be aware of.

1363
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:21,719
Speaker 2: And I don't know whether this happens particularly in direct

1364
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 2: action groups or if I think that because most of

1365
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 2: the organizations I've been involved with rem or direct action groups.

1366
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:28,439
Speaker 2: But it's just a thing that happens where like people

1367
01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:30,519
Speaker 2: are like, you know, like tree sitters are like, oh,

1368
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 2: we can't talk about patriarchy within the movement. They're cutting

1369
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:36,360
Speaker 2: the trees down right now, you know, right, And so

1370
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:37,640
Speaker 2: I think they had some of that going on, at

1371
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 2: least according to to least one of them.

1372
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 4: Later, it wouldn't be surprising. And I go, of course,

1373
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:44,840
Speaker 4: we don't know all of the jenes that came through,

1374
01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:48,920
Speaker 4: but it was pretty much ran by white women. And

1375
01:08:49,240 --> 01:08:51,920
Speaker 4: when we know what happens when it comes to feminism

1376
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:54,439
Speaker 4: and white women and where that can lead and who

1377
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:58,480
Speaker 4: actually gate keys what, there's always going to be situations

1378
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 4: with that. And then when you have something that is

1379
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:05,799
Speaker 4: so as you said, fraud but like uncertain anything illegal

1380
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:07,519
Speaker 4: we know is going to be uncertain, is going to

1381
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 4: have a lot of stress. And I can't imagine what

1382
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 4: that looks like within a group, especially when we're also

1383
01:09:12,840 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 4: handling medical procedures on your own as well. So I like,

1384
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:20,280
Speaker 4: there's so many things to that. And again, like talking

1385
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 4: about who was getting access, a lot of people were

1386
01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 4: getting access, but it seeming like it was a lot

1387
01:09:25,280 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 4: of like college students at this point in time. We

1388
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:30,360
Speaker 4: know that for young women to be in college, they

1389
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 4: probably had some money. And even though they might not

1390
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:35,120
Speaker 4: have as much money as others in society, they still

1391
01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:38,479
Speaker 4: had a little bit of access and higher economic status

1392
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,240
Speaker 4: than most. And again it says a lot too even

1393
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 4: though they were trying to be accessible, but the word

1394
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:48,759
Speaker 4: of mouth went through who didn't go to typically middle

1395
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 4: class women so or middle class people at that point

1396
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:54,240
Speaker 4: in time. So there's a lot to be said kind

1397
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 4: of the same way that if we wanted to go

1398
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 4: jump and I don't want to because I did this

1399
01:09:57,439 --> 01:10:01,680
Speaker 4: with Robert a long time ago about play in parenthood

1400
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 4: and the beginnings of that. So you know, we know

1401
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:08,479
Speaker 4: that there is things that happen within movements and who

1402
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:11,720
Speaker 4: was leading movements and what them could have been on

1403
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:16,080
Speaker 4: the underbelly of it. Totally you know more than I do.

1404
01:10:16,160 --> 01:10:18,760
Speaker 2: But no, no, no, I don't. And like, I mean, it's

1405
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 2: funny because once again you're reading my script ahead of me,

1406
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:22,800
Speaker 2: and I not in a bad way, no, I just

1407
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 2: I like that we're on the same page about this,

1408
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:27,720
Speaker 2: because yeah, that's one of the most important things to

1409
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 2: understand with a lot of this is like it's mostly

1410
01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 2: white women. It's almost exclusively white women doing this work.

1411
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:37,839
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy New York and a few other states, Hawaii, Alaska,

1412
01:10:37,840 --> 01:10:41,559
Speaker 2: and Washington legalized most abortion, and suddenly there weren't as

1413
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:45,519
Speaker 2: many middle class patients from that point because people could

1414
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:47,880
Speaker 2: just fly or train out to New York and have

1415
01:10:47,920 --> 01:10:49,479
Speaker 2: a legal abortion instead of going all the way to

1416
01:10:49,479 --> 01:10:52,240
Speaker 2: the UK. And so they started serving the black community

1417
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 2: of Chicago more and more, but it was still white

1418
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 2: women doing it. And yeah, when I first read like,

1419
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:00,920
Speaker 2: oh they advertised in the student page, person, I'm like, Okay,

1420
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:03,559
Speaker 2: it's really cool that students have access to abortion, but

1421
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 2: that is not necessarily like the majority of the people

1422
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:09,840
Speaker 2: in Chicago or whatever, you know, right, And I've only

1423
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:14,080
Speaker 2: run across one black chain, a woman named Louise, who

1424
01:11:14,680 --> 01:11:17,880
Speaker 2: joined basically to be like, look, y'all are doing a

1425
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:19,880
Speaker 2: good thing, but it's like still kind of fucking weird

1426
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:22,439
Speaker 2: that you're all white. And then again and I read

1427
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:25,280
Speaker 2: that basically her friends were like, what are you fucking doing?

1428
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:28,080
Speaker 2: If these white women get caught, they'll get off, and

1429
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:32,240
Speaker 2: if you get caught, you're fucked right, And I don't

1430
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:34,120
Speaker 2: know that that ever had to be tested. I don't

1431
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:37,559
Speaker 2: believe it was ever tested. Well, the fact that white

1432
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:40,559
Speaker 2: women getting arrested ended up okay was tested, but I

1433
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 2: don't believe any I believe Louise was the only black

1434
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 2: Jain and it's certainly the only one I ran across.

1435
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:48,720
Speaker 4: So yeah, and just the little research that I did,

1436
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:52,599
Speaker 4: I didn't see her name pop up like or who

1437
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:56,400
Speaker 4: she was. Also, Yeah, again, probably being identified is not

1438
01:11:56,439 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 4: a thing you want to be. Yeah, doing an underground

1439
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:04,920
Speaker 4: the toe but yeah, absolutely that's dangerous on so many levels,

1440
01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:08,400
Speaker 4: and we understand that. And in Chicago in itself long

1441
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:11,439
Speaker 4: ugly history of segregation and such.

1442
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 2: Yep. So now that Nick Mike is gone and they're

1443
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:18,519
Speaker 2: providing the abortions themselves, though their prices are able to

1444
01:12:18,600 --> 01:12:23,160
Speaker 2: drop dramatically. Their abortions were nominally one hundred dollars, but

1445
01:12:23,240 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 2: realistically they took whatever the patient could offer. They averaged

1446
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:28,640
Speaker 2: about fifty dollars. The drivers were the ones collecting the

1447
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:31,920
Speaker 2: money and somewhere between the front and the place, but

1448
01:12:31,960 --> 01:12:35,040
Speaker 2: they didn't count the money. They just were handed money

1449
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 2: and took it. Sometimes they were handed jars of change,

1450
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:41,840
Speaker 2: and when they could, twenty five dollars were taken out

1451
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:44,080
Speaker 2: of every you know, and if those at least twenty

1452
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:45,840
Speaker 2: five dollars, As far as I understand, twenty five dollars

1453
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 2: was taken out and put into a revolving loan fund

1454
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 2: where people could come and say, like I need a

1455
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 2: loan to get it, and they would have a no

1456
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:55,080
Speaker 2: interest loan that kind of is a like, look, please

1457
01:12:55,080 --> 01:12:57,680
Speaker 2: pay it back, but we're not like sending anyone to

1458
01:12:57,680 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 2: your house if you don't pay it back, you know,

1459
01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 2: of a like right, please pay it back, not a

1460
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 2: you must pay.

1461
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:05,960
Speaker 4: It an honor system.

1462
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:07,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. And it's and it's kind of the thing

1463
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 2: where it's like not just non our system, but like

1464
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:12,200
Speaker 2: I assume they weren't like, don't starve yourself to pay

1465
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,720
Speaker 2: us back, right, you know. Yeah, And you know, they

1466
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:17,639
Speaker 2: basically were just like, this is so that the next

1467
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 2: woman who needs an abortion can have one if you can,

1468
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:21,920
Speaker 2: you know. And that's and that's where we're going to

1469
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:24,640
Speaker 2: leave it today with Jane in their heyday. They're an

1470
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:27,600
Speaker 2: all women collective providing safe for legal abortions and to

1471
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:31,400
Speaker 2: the people of Chicago, which is it's pretty fucking cool. Yes,

1472
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:34,160
Speaker 2: do you have any like final thoughts for today or

1473
01:13:34,320 --> 01:13:35,320
Speaker 2: do you want to know?

1474
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:37,720
Speaker 4: I'm just so excited that we're talking more about this,

1475
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:42,200
Speaker 4: like discovering all these things being on an intersectional feminist

1476
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:45,040
Speaker 4: show and coming to like, yes, let's keep talking about it.

1477
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:47,679
Speaker 4: This is amazing. I love it. But yeah, but being

1478
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:51,360
Speaker 4: realistic about you know, it wasn't glamour and it wasn't

1479
01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:55,080
Speaker 4: as easy obviously as it should be. And this is

1480
01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:59,439
Speaker 4: the problem when we have limited access or no access,

1481
01:13:59,439 --> 01:14:02,599
Speaker 4: and then when we criminalizing people for trying to just live.

1482
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:05,640
Speaker 4: Like that's just totally but I'm excited that we are

1483
01:14:05,680 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 4: talking about it.

1484
01:14:06,360 --> 01:14:09,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I really want to, like, whenever possible,

1485
01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:10,360
Speaker 2: I really want to do like a warts and all

1486
01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:12,400
Speaker 2: version of the show, because like when you hold up

1487
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:15,000
Speaker 2: people as heroes and they're like this person was perfect, right,

1488
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:16,760
Speaker 2: and you're like, well, I'm not perfect. I can't be

1489
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:19,280
Speaker 2: a hero, you know, and it's like no, like these

1490
01:14:19,320 --> 01:14:22,439
Speaker 2: people like got lots of things wrong and they just

1491
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 2: did amazing shit anyway, right.

1492
01:14:25,080 --> 01:14:29,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and nobody's perfect besides dogs.

1493
01:14:28,160 --> 01:14:32,040
Speaker 4: Correct, besides dogs. And my dog's a dick, but I

1494
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 4: love her, but yeah, on top of the fact that

1495
01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 4: I'm honest, We're honest about it, but she's also perfect. Yeah.

1496
01:14:41,640 --> 01:14:45,519
Speaker 2: Sure, So he gets angrier and angrier at the idea

1497
01:14:45,520 --> 01:14:46,839
Speaker 2: that the dog might not be perfect.

1498
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 4: I'm like dog perfect. I don't say it, but yeah,

1499
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:53,439
Speaker 4: like I think in that's the thing is like, honestly,

1500
01:14:53,520 --> 01:14:55,920
Speaker 4: what comes down to what I love discovering And I

1501
01:14:55,960 --> 01:14:57,599
Speaker 4: know we're going to keep talking about it, but about

1502
01:14:57,600 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 4: these cool people is that it wasn't that they wanted

1503
01:14:59,880 --> 01:15:01,800
Speaker 4: to be a hero and that they didn't do anything

1504
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 4: wrong before or don't have ron perspectives or may have misspoke.

1505
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:08,479
Speaker 4: It's just that they saw a need and they did

1506
01:15:08,479 --> 01:15:11,000
Speaker 4: something about it poorly. And that's what we get to

1507
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 4: celebrate totally.

1508
01:15:13,360 --> 01:15:17,320
Speaker 2: And you can celebrate more with us on the part

1509
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 2: two of this two part series on Wednesday, when we're

1510
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:23,040
Speaker 2: going to talk in more detail about exactly what services

1511
01:15:23,040 --> 01:15:26,439
Speaker 2: they offered and how it all went down and some

1512
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 2: of the other people who've taken up the torch in

1513
01:15:29,000 --> 01:15:30,439
Speaker 2: the decades since them.

1514
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:33,320
Speaker 3: Samantha, anything you want to plug before we head out?

1515
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:36,560
Speaker 4: Oh yeah. So if this interest you and you like

1516
01:15:36,640 --> 01:15:40,280
Speaker 4: to learn more about women in history and the intersectionality

1517
01:15:40,280 --> 01:15:42,599
Speaker 4: of it all, you should come listen to Stuff Mom

1518
01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:44,760
Speaker 4: Never Told You, which you can also find on the

1519
01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:48,320
Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can

1520
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:51,360
Speaker 4: follow us Stuff mom never told you. On Twitter and

1521
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:55,760
Speaker 4: on Instagram, you could also follow me McVeigh Sam I

1522
01:15:55,800 --> 01:15:59,559
Speaker 4: believe it is my Instagram and then Sam McVeigh on Twitter.

1523
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:04,200
Speaker 4: I'm struggling. I'm not really active, but sometimes I exist.

1524
01:16:05,479 --> 01:16:09,000
Speaker 3: There's a very cute dog picture on your Instagram where

1525
01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:11,200
Speaker 3: you're wearing matching Halloween outfits.

1526
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:14,479
Speaker 4: So that's that's what I would like.

1527
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:15,599
Speaker 3: To plug at the end.

1528
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:19,800
Speaker 4: Here is that photo your pumpkins? Yeah?

1529
01:16:19,840 --> 01:16:23,320
Speaker 3: Anyways, we'll see, we'll see, We'll see all Wednesday.

1530
01:16:23,600 --> 01:16:29,760
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1531
01:16:30,160 --> 01:16:32,640
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1532
01:16:32,680 --> 01:16:35,760
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

1533
01:16:35,920 --> 01:16:38,960
Speaker 1: visit our website fool zonemedia dot com, or check us

1534
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:42,400
Speaker 1: out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1535
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:43,800
Speaker 4: Get your podcasts.