1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: This is me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 2 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening to Hunt 3 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: Don't Meet e podcast, you can't predict anything presented by 4 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: first light, Go farther, stay longer ed Arnett, I didn't 5 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: know until I don't think I knew till now. He 6 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: used to be a bat like a bat biologist. I did, 7 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 1: But I just can't picture because I figured. I always 8 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: figure you um that your biology interests are dovetailed with 9 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: your hunting interests, but bats that's not really the case. 10 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: They certainly were. I grew up always wanting to be 11 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: a biologist and wanting to study big game like most 12 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: biologist A lot of biologists do, and uh I F 13 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: I did my master's on big orange cheap so I 14 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: fulfilled that for a long time. And UH when I 15 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: went to work at in the Pacific Northwest, I started 16 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: working a lot more on nine game issues. And when 17 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: I worked to work for Timber Company Warehouser, I really 18 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: started engaging in bat research. My PhD was on UH 19 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: bats and forest management did a lot of work on 20 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: wind energy and bats. And before I came to t 21 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 1: RCP and got to meet you, guys. I was running 22 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: conservation programs for Bat Conservation International and led a bunch 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: of research on wind energy and back kills across the country. 24 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: So you mean like bats running into um windmills or 25 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,639 Speaker 1: not wind mills, but they're being hit by the turning blades. 26 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 1: They don't run into them. Bats have a very unique 27 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: echolocation system and they helps them sea in the dark. 28 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: And if there's too many of them that run into things, 29 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: there would be what I'd call losers and Darwin's causino. 30 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: They're not supposed to run into things, so they're getting 31 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 1: hit by the turbans. So what was what was wire 32 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: Houser's interest in bats? So you know, like if you 33 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: if for you listeners, if you got a ream of 34 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: printer paper laying around, there's a very good chance if 35 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: you go look at that printer paper, it will say 36 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: wire Houser on it was their interest in UH in bats. 37 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: So back in when I UH finished up my graduate 38 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: program on my big run Cheap study, I went to 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: the Northwest and I was working for the Forest Service, 40 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: then went to work with Warehouser. The reason I mentioned 41 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: the Forest Service job as I started that literally a 42 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: month after they listed the Northern spot at owl and 43 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: a couple of years later, um I uh I basically 44 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: um applied for this job and got it, and um 45 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: you know, at that time, spotted owl's were driving a 46 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: lot of the issues for this forest product. Yeah, okay, 47 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: good ahead, I got a comment. But it's an endangered 48 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: species issue. And so my job we were hired on 49 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: basically to look at all of the managed forest and 50 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,519 Speaker 1: all the different kind is wildlife that use managed forests, 51 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: and how in fact managed forest provide habitat or don't, 52 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,279 Speaker 1: and what we could do in a in a intensively 53 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: managed forest context to manage all these species that could 54 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: be listed in the future. Back at that time they 55 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: were called Category two species, which all that really meant 56 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: was there was a designation that they could be listed 57 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: in the future. So Warehouser hired a bunch of people, 58 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 1: myself included, to look at things beyond just spotted owl 59 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: another endangered species issues because in their mind, all the 60 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: trouble that spotted owl, all the controversy and trouble and 61 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: just bad for business stuff that the spotted owl brought 62 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: onto the logging industry, they were thinking of themselves, what's 63 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: the next thing that's going to come up, and how 64 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: can we get out ahead of that. That's exactly right, 65 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: which is like being a responsible player, right, Yeah, exactly. 66 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: They were thinking ahead of the game, whatever their regardless 67 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: of their motivation. Of the motive. Yeah, obviously there were 68 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: business ties to that, community relationships and those kind of 69 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: being good neighbors and that kind of stuff, but the 70 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: reality was it was all about you know, the future, 71 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: licensed to operate and at that time and there still 72 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: are today a number of species that are potentially going 73 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: to be listed. So I did most of my work. 74 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 1: I shifted from most of the work on four legged 75 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: ungulets and you know, other four legged critters to nothing 76 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: but songbirds, amphibians in stream amphibians in particular those that 77 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: utilize small streams and forests, and bats. So that's how 78 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: I got into it. And uh, one thing led to 79 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: another and started working pretty intensively on bats and developed 80 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: a PhD dissertation project on it, and the rest is history. 81 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: So what was the what was the vulnerability of the bats? 82 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: Like what was the harvest timber? Harvests? Like they were 83 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: what do they needed? What were they using timber for? Next? 84 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: What they need? Yeah, they need them for roosting. Um 85 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: for both maternity roots where they have their young. Yeah, 86 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: some old roots behind x full eating bark. So the 87 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: crevices in bark. And you've seen this walking around the woods, 88 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: dead trees, they'll go into woodpecker holes. Sometimes they'll uh 89 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: just a just a slight crack and a live tree 90 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: can create a place for bats. So they either roost 91 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: during the night, you know, they do what's called night roosting. 92 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: But they also have maternity colonies. And sometimes you'll be 93 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: walking around next time you're out to Ponderosa Pine forest, 94 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: you might see a big slab of bark peeling off 95 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: of dead tree. There might be two or three hundred 96 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: bats under that thing, just depending on how big their 97 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: what species of bat is this so um, it could 98 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: be any any of a number of species. There's what 99 00:05:36,839 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: we call the crevice roosting species, and that could be 100 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: anything from big brown to little brown bats. What's called 101 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: the long eared myotis. That was the pictures you were 102 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: looking at a little while ago in my house. That 103 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: was a long eared myotis getting a drink of water. Uh. 104 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: There's several of them that use uh use those crevices. 105 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: I'm guilty of having not paid a whole hell of 106 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: attention to bats in my life. I didn't either take 107 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: like I got that hunting fishing problem that you get, 108 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: where like I I spent a lot of time observing, 109 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: thinking about, reading about talking about game, either game species 110 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:20,039 Speaker 1: or like charismatic animals. Right, so animals that maybe animals 111 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,839 Speaker 1: that sort of have something to do with hunting and fishing, 112 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: even if they're only a peripheral player. Right, Like I'm 113 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:31,799 Speaker 1: not gonna hunt humpback whales, but I'm interested in humpback 114 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: whales because when I'm out fishing salmon and haliban and whatnot, 115 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: I'm observing humpbacks and watching them fish, and so they 116 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: sort of enter my consciousness. Right, But like, the bat 117 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 1: has never had a real in hold with me, and 118 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: and it does it for most people. I mean, most 119 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: hunters probably wondering if they could hit him with a 120 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 1: shotgun when they're running around in the evening, you know. 121 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: But the reality is they're ridiculously important to ecosystems, and 122 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: the insectivorous bad to eat insects at a rate that 123 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 1: can all oftentimes render the uh U render That's maybe 124 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: not the right word, but lessen the need for pesticides 125 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: and in agricultural systems because they eat so many insects. 126 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: There's some studies in Texas that demonstrate it's into the 127 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: multi billions of dollars in terms of loss or the 128 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: reduction of agricultural pests. Um they but they also important pollinators. 129 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: They're important seed dispersers across the world. They eat just 130 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: about everything, those that eat blood, those that eat fish. 131 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: Some have specialized hooks for catching fish. All the bad 132 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: pictures you've seen around my players there, they're all insectivorous bats, 133 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: but they play a vital role. And you know, the 134 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: interesting thing, we started calling things like this. You know 135 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: you've heard LBJ the little brown jobs for dickey birds. 136 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and then uh and then in the LBMs 137 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: in mycology lb M little brown mushrooms, little brown mushrooms. 138 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: Like if you're out mush mushroom hunting and you see 139 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,360 Speaker 1: a little brown mushroom, it's like, just keep walking. You'll 140 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: never positively identify that thing. Or that's kind of like 141 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: the just a term like we got your you know, morals, corals, bleats, LBMs, 142 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: little brown mushroom. We started calling bats and other things 143 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: like them. They are not so charismatic, microfuno. But they're critical. 144 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: They're absolutely critical. And it started, Yeah, I start getting 145 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: you to think about ecosystems and and you know, biological 146 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 1: communities and systems. Everything's interconnected. Elder Leopold called the cogs 147 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: and wheels, cogs on the wheels exactly right. You know, 148 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: I was in Um, I was in the say shells. 149 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: You know where to say shells are like they sit 150 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,559 Speaker 1: off if you imagine if you went due east out 151 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: of Somalia, wig at hell in the Indian Ocean. To 152 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: say shells are so far removed that no one even 153 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: knew they had never been colonized. No one knew about 154 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: them until they came up with like intercontinental shipping. Like 155 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: no indigenous people as wasn't like the Polynesian Islands, where 156 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: indigenous people eventually found all the like Hawaii and everything. 157 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: No one ever stepped foot on the stay shells until 158 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: someone showed up in like in a full on ship. 159 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: No one knew they were there, but we were there. 160 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: The only native mammal on the say shells is the bat. Yeah, 161 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: big huge freaking bats. Yeah that's what they were. Come 162 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: out at night, look like a jet, like a bat 163 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: the kind of bat that would like bite your neck, 164 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:27,960 Speaker 1: could kill you, but not like fruit in in some 165 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: some countries are still consumption of bats. Yeah, that was 166 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:31,839 Speaker 1: one of the few times I ever paid attention to 167 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: a bat. And my kids like to go on They 168 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: like it to me to go on YouTube and pull 169 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: up videos of Aboriginal Australians hunting baths boomerangs, which is like, 170 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: if you've got kids, that's big ship to a kid. 171 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: Hit the back of the boomerang is endlessly fascinating to children. 172 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: That's a hell of a lot of skill to These 173 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 1: guys are good man. They round them up and cook them. Um, 174 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: So we have like I can't remember where we left 175 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: off we're talking to we're talking about stage gross. Yes 176 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: you want, I gotta I know where we're left off. 177 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: Go ahead, I wrote it down. How long ago was 178 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: it that we had a sage grouse conversation? A year 179 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: ago and maybe a month? Okay, so we're doing a 180 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: year ago checking on something. And here's why, here's why 181 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: you should care. Here's why you should care about stage grouse. 182 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: Besides the fact that it's just like a it passes 183 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: the test that I put out earlier. The test I 184 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: put out, We're like, I'm interested in things that have 185 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: hunting efficient implications. So there's that with sage grouse. So 186 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: you know, this is a game bird, the largest grouse 187 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: species we have. Um, it's a very it's an iconic 188 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: bird that is symbolizes is kind of of a symbol 189 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: of a certain biome or a certain habitat type of 190 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,079 Speaker 1: the great sage brush sees um. And also it's really 191 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: important to watch because earlier we're talking about the spotted out. 192 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: If you're only remember the spotted owl debate, the spotted 193 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: owl be kind of came to this sort of bird 194 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: that was a proxy for a broader argument. And the 195 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: broader argument was about, um, to what level do we 196 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: inconvenience are commercial activities? To what degree are we willing 197 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:23,599 Speaker 1: to inconvenience are commercial activities out of deference to wildlife? 198 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: Is that fair? Ed? That's very fair. So it became 199 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: like it became this symbol of a national debate about 200 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 1: if we had to turn we can make money doing something, 201 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: but that we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna perhaps lose 202 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: species of wildlife in order to make that money. Is 203 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: it worthwhile or not? Like do we push ahead or 204 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: do we pull back? And it was sad for the 205 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: bird because here's this bird has no idea any of 206 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: this is going on. But the bird becomes like a 207 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 1: maligned creature. Yeah, the bird becomes like the punchline to 208 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: a joke or a threat. Sure, there was a lot 209 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: of that going around in the nineties. Yeah, and it 210 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: want to be like the bird's reputation kind of suffered 211 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: and in a way, like if you think about these 212 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 1: sort of debates, we're sort of in a current thing 213 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: now with you know, we're security now like gray wolves, okay, 214 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: where the gray wolve sort of stands in as a 215 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: symbol of this bigger argument about do are we gonna 216 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: allow an animal beyond the landscape that is so inconvenient 217 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: to some people live Like it's an inconvenient to livestock 218 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,559 Speaker 1: producers and a lot of hunters perceived it as being 219 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: very inconvenient to them, And so what is our tolerance 220 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: level going to be of this species? And it suffers 221 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: in a similar way that the spotted owl suffering. It's 222 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: always sad to see this happen where the wolf, like 223 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:52,079 Speaker 1: this animal that cannot that would be incapable of comprehending 224 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: the debate that he's in. Like wolves exist without the 225 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: knowledge that this conversation is taking place. They don't know. 226 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: They have know, like if they don't know anything else 227 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: of the world, to be on their own experience. Like 228 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: if you ask a wolf in Wyoming, he doesn't know 229 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: that there's a bunch in Alaska, but they're missing from 230 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: other areas. It's just like way outside. He just like 231 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: understands his little realm. But meanwhile we're talking about them. 232 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: Is this big and become this big single and it 233 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: becomes something that winds up being like the animal itself 234 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: becomes controversial when all he's doing is putting us in 235 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: a situation where we need to discuss our tolerances, but 236 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,839 Speaker 1: he becomes sort of a victim of it. That's all 237 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: like a preface to say that right now, if you 238 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: want to understand wildlife politics and kind of where we're 239 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: headed and the kind of conversations that we're going to 240 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: continue to have, the current version, the current spotted out 241 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: like today's spotted out real quickly, wad what happened to? 242 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 1: How's the spotted all doing now? Is he good? No? 243 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: They're not off the list? Um and just to add 244 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: one quick thing to that. You know, they became the 245 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: poster child, and in my view, um really kind of 246 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: zembled the metaphor if you can't see the forest because 247 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: of the trees in Freddy and everybody focused on spotted owls, 248 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: but it was really about that ecosystem and about accelerated 249 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: harvest of old growth forest and how important old growth 250 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: forests were. We learned a lot about, you know, at 251 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: that time, there wasn't an immense amount of research, particularly 252 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: in managed forest, and I think we learned a lot about, 253 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: you know, how you can manage structural features and habitat 254 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: features for the animal without necessarily having older forests, but 255 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: you have older forest conditions. And but what I think 256 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people realized in with the spotted owl 257 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: as the poster child, that this is about an ecosystem 258 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: that's vital to so many different creatures and you can 259 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: manage you can you can preserve old growth forest, but 260 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 1: you can also learn and also manage for habitat in 261 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: managed forests as well. Yeah, and in the same way 262 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: that that spotted owl became a poster child or symbolic 263 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: of old growth forest, we're gonna talk about now like 264 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: with sage grouse. The sage grouse is sort of standing 265 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: in as this as the poster child of sagebrush. Yep, 266 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: and like a better one. I think that would ring 267 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: with more people. Perhaps would be if the if, the 268 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: if the American prong horn or antelope. We're in as 269 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: rough of a spot as the as the sage grouse is. 270 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: I think people might be seeing this different, more well 271 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,160 Speaker 1: known creature and kind more like there's just like kind 272 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: of like a cooler it's just bigger, it's more recognizable. 273 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: You know, you should picture people that animal. They're gonna know. 274 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: To start a conversation about stage grouse, you almost gotta 275 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: be like, okay, here's what one looks like, because a 276 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: lot of people don't really know, right. But to wrap 277 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: up the point I was making earlier and leading into this, 278 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: this conversation that we're having about in like economically inconvenient 279 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: animals and what and how much do we curtail activities 280 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: in order to ensure that we don't drive species to extinction, 281 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: and we about extinction, it's we're talking about making things 282 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: gone forever. This conversation will always be going on. It's 283 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: just the players will change. That's right on the wildlife 284 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: and the human front. Yeah, the wildlife. And it's good 285 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: because you know what at a time, if we hadn't 286 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: figured out electricity, um, and we were driving and when 287 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: we were driving uh, some whales to extinction and driving 288 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: some whales to near extinction in order to make fuel 289 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: oil for city lamps, we would have been having this 290 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: conversation in the eighteen hundreds instead of what we did. 291 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: But the whale was saved by electricity or probably no, yeah, 292 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: by the other thing. No, not electricity, yeah, but but 293 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: fossil fuels. So, which is at the heart of this discussion, 294 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: which we exchanged what you have to bring even more 295 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: full circuit wines about this. So we're gonna talk about 296 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: stage grouss. But remember we're talking about stage guss. We're 297 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: talking about a current version of something that will always 298 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: be happening in our society, in our country, which is 299 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: a country that places a tremendous value on wildlife and 300 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: also we play a tremendous value on economic prosperity. You know, Um, 301 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: if I may, before I tell you where we left 302 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: off and start into that. You also made a point 303 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 1: in the last podcast that really hammers home on this 304 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: because you were talking about you'd think if you went 305 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 1: to the Philippines or some other place you could just 306 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: catch the hell out of fish, and not always the case. 307 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: And there's that linkage between, uh, that social and economic 308 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: component with conservation that's vital. I mean, we want wildlife 309 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: in this country. We have um a variety of laws 310 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: and principles that we work from to keep wildlife. We have, 311 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,640 Speaker 1: you know, the legacy at Theodore Roosevelt and and all 312 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 1: of the people that he worked with and we're colleagues with, 313 00:17:54,520 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: and thereafter that, you know, define that social um desire 314 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: to have wildlife in our landscapes, and then we've been 315 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,479 Speaker 1: trying to figure out that economic balance ever since. But 316 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: make no mistake, if we had five million people in 317 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: the US and hardly any resources, we wouldn't have very 318 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: many wildlife either. That's the funny thing I find like 319 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: this is uh, you know, like guys that like to 320 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: get all ready for like societal collapse, like prepper type 321 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: of guys there are real fired up about having the 322 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: right kind of hunting guns. Like you see him online 323 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 1: debating like what's the perfect gun for post apocalyptic hunting scenarios. 324 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: It'd be like, dude, post apocalyptic scenarios or like societal 325 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: collapses in failed states generally mean there is no wildlife. 326 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: You don't have a failure, you don't have like robust 327 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: wildlife within a failed state. That's right, the first thing 328 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: that goes And that was your point. What was I 329 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: thought about that? Well, that was the whole point of 330 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,360 Speaker 1: I thought. You know, the discussion about the Philippines where 331 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: you're talking about going fishing and hard to confine the 332 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: fish because they poperished scenario I was reading on. I 333 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,440 Speaker 1: just turned into the frontier days again are coming through 334 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: the road. You know this one guy, this one prep 335 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 1: rouse reading no one time he was talking about he's 336 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 1: like laying it out for his buddies and he's like, hey, 337 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: here's the thing though, man, in a real post apocalyptic, 338 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: you know, societal collapse scenario, you need a gun that's 339 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 1: real good for rats and dogs. Because he was like 340 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: he's planning on he's gonna be eating these rats, but 341 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: he thinks that the dogs are gonna be out trying 342 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: to kill you, that the dogs are gonna pack up. 343 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 1: Like this is the level of detail, like like like 344 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: like prepper guys get into He's got it all sorted out. 345 00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: But all right, so a year ago, where was the 346 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: Can you just lay out for me what's going on 347 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: with stage grouse? Okay, what's going on in general? What 348 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: was going on a year ago? And then we're gonna 349 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,360 Speaker 1: focus on what happened since a year ago. Okay, So 350 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: when you and Ronnie were out hunting and we hooked 351 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: up and talked about stage grouse, it was days literally 352 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: days after the um decision was made as a not 353 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: warranted decision by the Fish and Wildlife Service to list 354 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: and provide protections under the Endangered Species Act for sage grouse, 355 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: meaning they they looked at the stage grouse issue and 356 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: tried to figure out, like, do we need to make 357 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 1: give them a Danger Species Act protection? Correct all the 358 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: numbers and said, you know what, we thought we might 359 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: need to, but we don't. Well they didn't run. They 360 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: ran a lot of numbers, but there was a lot 361 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: that went into that that we'll get into on what 362 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: it took to get to that decision. But not everything 363 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: was in place, and that's why it's so important for 364 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: our talk today about what still isn't yet in place 365 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: per se and what's being considered. But what led up 366 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: to that where decades of research, a lot of concern 367 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: back at the nineties from biologists not not not you know, 368 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,719 Speaker 1: uh ngo, I got it's killing me. I gotta interrupt. 369 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,479 Speaker 1: You go ahead. Can you back up a hundred fifty years? 370 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: Oh man? Not not detail level, but tell how like 371 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: I know it's impossible staying and like this kind of 372 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: question drives biologist nuts. How many of these birds were there? 373 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: Where were they living? And how much has their habitat 374 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: been reduced? And how much has their numbers been reduced? 375 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: So people kind of understanding, well, how this even came 376 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: to be? Yep, Um, they are an obligate of sage brush, 377 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: which means they cannot live without sage brush in their lives. 378 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: So you didn't have them in the east or the south, 379 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: or in Illinois or you know, in the mid heart 380 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 1: of the Midwest, you know. So so went the stage 381 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: grounse as sage brush did. So they were everywhere where 382 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: there was sage brush. And at that time there were 383 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: fourteen states I believe at least three provinces um that 384 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: had extensive sage brush habitat. There was an estimate, and 385 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: I remember we talked about this because you asked me 386 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: if I knew where the sixty million bisons figure came from. 387 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,880 Speaker 1: It was gues estimated. I'll say, at best sixteen million 388 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 1: stage grouse at the turn of the century, you know, 389 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: you know, before the turn of the century, before Europeans, 390 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: who knows if in the sagebrush like portions of the 391 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: sage brush sees were like the hundredth meridian in west, 392 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: in the Great Plains and in the Great Basin. Yep, 393 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: that's right, and they no longer exists in three states, 394 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: and now we have them in eleven states. It's estimated 395 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: that about fifty of the habitat has been lost, and 396 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: that was one of the metrics that led the service 397 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: to consider the species for listening. They've lost half their habitat. 398 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,960 Speaker 1: It's been fragmented, it's been degradated. Um, there's all kinds 399 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: of threats to the remaining habitat, and the numbers have 400 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: been going down for a long time now, as you 401 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: well know. UM. Game bird populations fluctuate on an annual basis, 402 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 1: sometime on you know, eight to ten year cycles, but 403 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 1: it's all tied to precipitation and the quality of the 404 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 1: habitat and the right rain could double their numbers. The 405 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: wrong hailstorm could have exactly yeah, that's exactly right. And 406 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: so they always have these oscillations on any given year. 407 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: But the long term trend has been about one percent 408 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,439 Speaker 1: decline since nineteen six up until the last figure in 409 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: that particular um study that that I often referenced through 410 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: the Western Association of Fish and Wilife Agencies was in 411 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: the numbers went up quite a bit. Uh this year 412 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: they're they're down more so, they fluctuate, but the long 413 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: term trend has been down, and that's largely because they've 414 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: been losing habitat. And even if their sage brush out there, 415 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily mean it's quality and good condition that 416 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: that renders it suitable for the birds. So that's part 417 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: of the reason that they were even being considered to 418 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: be listed in the first place. We were down somewhere 419 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood of two to four hundred thousand birds, 420 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: which in of itself isn't necessarily an alarmingly low number. 421 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 1: But the longer you kick that can down the road, 422 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: the more likely it is to go down to maybe 423 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand or two hundred thousand, and then all 424 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're at fifty going, oh ship, Now 425 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: what do we do? And it may be irreversible at 426 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: that point in time. Would you call uh sage grouse 427 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: an indicator species? Yes, and we often refer to him that. 428 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: Another term would be an umbrella species, whereby if you 429 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: if you manage habitat across a landscape for that particular species, 430 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 1: you're very likely to encompass a variety of other critters 431 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 1: that that live in that system. We often use that term. 432 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: What's the term? It's like, it's not there's a term. 433 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: It's it's like a similar like Bergman's rule or Bergman's 434 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: principle has got a name attached to it. But there's 435 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,360 Speaker 1: a term for when you have like like with um 436 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: passenger pigeons, you can have three billion of them and 437 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: they're fine, but somehow you can't have fifty thousand of them. 438 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,919 Speaker 1: M hmm. It's like a word for this that just 439 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: sounds like a tipping point. There's a point at which 440 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: there's a point at which like you could never maintain 441 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: you could maintain a species, and we now know you 442 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: couldn't maintain a species of ten passenger pigeons. Yeah, it 443 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: has to be that there has to be like a 444 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: million or none. Oh, I see what you're saying, and 445 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not sure. I can tell you. One 446 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: term some types people confuse with the indicator species is keystone. 447 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: That's very different. If if sage grouse were to somehow 448 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: miraculously go away, and we certainly hope they don't, I 449 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: doubt there is a key stone effect. If you take 450 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: wolves out of an ecosystem, and we saw this with 451 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: the Yello stone, you can have cast our beaver, for example, 452 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: you can have huge impacts on other other parts of 453 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: the systems. That makes sense. Yeah, if the sage grouse goes, 454 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: you're not likely to see some like cascading series of 455 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: you won't see like some ecological collapse. However, though, um, 456 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: if sage grouse go, that means their habitats gone. So 457 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: my guests would be a lot of other species would 458 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 1: go with them, not because they went, but because if 459 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 1: it's because the stage brush is gone. At the stage 460 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: brush is gone, you're gonna lose twenty seven that's exactly right, 461 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: or some some profound number of you know, and as 462 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: we've discussed before to the question on the indicator species, 463 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: there's three hundred and fifty at least three hundred fifty 464 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: species of plants and animals that are dependent on the 465 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: stage rust ecosystem in some way, shape or form, and 466 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: including some big time game animals exactly mule deer animal. Yeah, 467 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 1: and we probably both have stories on chasing deer and 468 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: busting sage. I got a current one from this buck. 469 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 1: My cousin and I just killed and satres busting up 470 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: all over the place while we're trying to put a 471 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: sneak on the stamp deer. So they utilize the same systems. Alright, 472 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: So back to our timeline. Uh So the Department of 473 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: a Tier at the time, Sally Jewel, no, Secretary Sally 474 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: Jewel inherited that from Ken's Sal's are Ken's sales are 475 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: kind of started all this with the you know, um 476 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: and may uh some good headway with the states and 477 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: then and then Secretary Jewel came in afterwards. Um uh. 478 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: The states were working on their individual state plans back 479 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 1: in two thousand tens when this really kicked off, because 480 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: there was in fact a lawsuit that that said what 481 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 1: what happened back prior to the decision, the bird was 482 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: determined to be warranted for protections under the essay, but precluded. 483 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: And what that meant was they definitely warranted those protections, 484 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: but there were a bunch of other species that had 485 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: higher priority that were ahead of them. So that's what 486 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: the precluded part means now. And that was the wake 487 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: up call to the states into industry that you better 488 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: sort this out or it's gonna get real bad for you. 489 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 1: That's right, And what really kicked that off. And you'll 490 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: hear a lot of people talk about the sue and 491 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: settle scenario. There's no doubt there was a lawsuit that 492 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: forced the decision and Judge Windmill, who was the federal 493 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: uh judge that was handed this uh this lawsuit said 494 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: no fish and wilife service. You're gonna go back and 495 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna actually make a determination, but I'm 496 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: gonna give you five years to do it. So that's 497 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: where that whole timeline came in. If that hadn't happened, 498 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: who knows how serious people would have taken this. You 499 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: always got a good christ got to have a good crisis, 500 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: you know, to start doing something. It seems like our 501 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: histories replete with that, unfortunately. But the proactive is always 502 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: got to be a little less than the than the reactive. 503 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: So this was a reaction that lawsuit, and everybody did 504 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: take it serious and started putting state plans together, the 505 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: federal start agencies start working on their federal plans. The 506 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: services trying to get their head around how this is 507 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: all going to stitch together into a comprehensive strategy that 508 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 1: would get them either to a warrant it or not 509 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: warrant a decision. And just let me just step into 510 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: some people follow the kind of like when I say 511 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: that with a wake up call, like if a species, 512 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: like let's say the stage gross, if the sage grouse 513 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: were to get listed and and get Endangered Species Act protections, 514 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: that is gonna shut down a lot of land use 515 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: activities in places that are vital to sage grouse. So 516 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,719 Speaker 1: one thing is damn sure is gonna happen is you're 517 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: not gonna hunt them anymore. So hunting seasons are done done. 518 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 1: What it also done is a lot of cattle grazing 519 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: sheep grazing operations are gonna be affected, probably, but primarily 520 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: is going to be like energy development, energy extraction, that 521 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: industry is gonna be just locked out of a lot 522 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: of places. Let me say a wake up call. These 523 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: guys might have never paid any attention to sage grouse hunters, 524 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: definitely do. Someone says, you know what, I see a 525 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: I sense a long term problem for sage grouse. I'm 526 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: gonna say that I'm gonna I'm gonna argue that they 527 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,959 Speaker 1: that they should be listened under the ESA, and I'm 528 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: gonna soothe the Feds for having not done it. The 529 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: Feds look at it, they come up to a settlement 530 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,120 Speaker 1: that says we need time to determine to to figure 531 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: out this is true or not. Now all these groups 532 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 1: from guys that sportsman's groups like the hunt them and 533 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: any other business in states that host this business are like, 534 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: holy shit, if this goes down, our economy goes down. 535 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: So we now are all of a sudden real interested 536 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: in sage grouse. Thus the impending crisis that kick started. 537 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: Everybody the hammer, It's like the hammer over your head 538 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: is the es A. And now there's a big movement 539 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,719 Speaker 1: to try to make the s A the hammerings not 540 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: so hammer like this was. But that's a whole other 541 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: conversations a conversation. But yeah, pull some teeth out of 542 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: that jaw Well to bring that full circle backrobab. We 543 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: started this with how I got into bats. That's exactly 544 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: what Warehousers saw with what happened with the spotted owl. 545 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: It literally shut down entire community. We're not talking just 546 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: you know, three of us getting kicked off our job. 547 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: We're talking entire parts of states going you know, having 548 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: true economic collapse. And and the industry saw the kinds 549 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: of revenues that were wrapped up in in the protection zones, 550 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: and they said, okay, we can't do this again. Let's start, 551 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: let's start being more proactive. That's why I was hired 552 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: to study mats. It seems haigh because one of the 553 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: beautiful things about America's that there's some like elements of 554 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: America that values wildlife so highly. But so okay, so 555 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: to get back on track here, so I want to 556 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: make sure we get discovered. So so that's all going on, 557 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: and you were you were just getting too okay. The 558 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: States started to be like, who what what's the stage? Gross? Um? 559 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: You I mean to describe a stre were getting to 560 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: the well of sudden getting really interested. Why why do 561 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: we care about this? Creator? Yeah, So you know, the 562 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: States started putting their plans, and make make no mistake, 563 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 1: the state biologists been watching this for a long time. 564 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: It just sometimes it takes that looming crisis. They were aware, 565 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: they were aware of it, and they had they were 566 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 1: been doing things research, monitoring, some habitat projects, those kinds 567 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: of things, but there wasn't a you know, a comprehensive 568 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 1: strategy for many of the states. Wyoming led the way 569 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: they started it in two thousand eight UM, and then 570 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: other states followed. And so you had all these state 571 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,600 Speaker 1: level efforts going on. You had the federal agencies putting 572 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: their plans together, and then in two thousand and ten 573 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: you had something pretty extraordinary, which was the National UH 574 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: Natural Natural Resources Conservation Service in OURCS put an initiative 575 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: together called the States Grouse Initiative that was pumping millions 576 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: and millions of dollars into private landowners to incentivize them 577 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: to change their grazing practices. Do UH do some fencing 578 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: and water type projects that were favorable to stags, grouse, 579 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: all kinds of different things, cut juniper trees, and it 580 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: incentivized conservation on private lands. So you have those three 581 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: legs of that stool that kind of put together made 582 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: a good, solid, comprehensive package in addition to a fire strategy, 583 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:15,320 Speaker 1: a fire fighting strategy that crossed political boundaries between Feds 584 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: and states and counties. And I don't want to get 585 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: into that because that's an extensive conversation in of itself, 586 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: but just make no mistake, firefighting wasn't always as coordinated, 587 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: and it probably still has some issues today. But at 588 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: least there's a plan in a strategy in place to 589 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: try to fight fire in the Great Basin in particular, 590 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: where fire is a huge threat to sage grouse habitat, 591 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: and in fact, I think in Nevada they lost well 592 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: over a million and a half acres just this year. 593 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: So you could say it's not working, but the other 594 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: ship beats it out. Yeah, yeah, well and cheat grass 595 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 1: comes back. And it's a vicious cycle with that cheat 596 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: grass because it's a real flashy fuel that burns, burns 597 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: even more extensive than so, so you have catastrophic fire 598 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,959 Speaker 1: destroys the stage brush, and the stage brush just never 599 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: gets the leg up because it's getting beat up by 600 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: It takes a long time to come back, and it varies, 601 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: you know, some it depends on precipitation, elevation and the 602 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: vegetation community. Right, so you've got site potential on any 603 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 1: given piece of land that you can grow certain kinds 604 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: of vegetation really well and sometimes you can't. And that 605 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, as you go up in elevation and to 606 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: get into like Mountain big sage systems with with higher precipitation, um, 607 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: they have more resistance and resilience if you will, to 608 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: fires and they come back more readily than out in 609 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 1: you know, parts of the Great Basin for just as 610 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 1: an example where there's much lower precipitation, different soil regime, 611 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: that kind of thing. But anyway, all those legs of 612 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: that stool were really important for the Fish and Wildlife 613 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: Service to say, Okay, we've got federal plans that are 614 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: pretty solid, um, we've got a lot of state plans 615 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: uh varying degrees of ability to address all these different 616 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 1: threats to sage grouse. We've got these private land efforts, 617 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: lots of money going into that, and we've got this 618 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: firefighting strategy. That's what got them in a comprehensive way 619 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: to that not warranted decision. None of those things probably 620 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: could have stood alone on their own. You needed that 621 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: comprehensive nature. So they were they were able to say, like, 622 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: all right, we trust all these like inner like these 623 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 1: interrelated plans and parts that you've put in place. We 624 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,919 Speaker 1: trust that that you're going to recover stage girls. That's 625 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: in essence, That's exactly what they said. Now and when 626 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 1: that announcement king, So it was a big deal, like 627 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 1: you know, you had the governors from several states, oh collected, 628 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: there's a big speech that people. Were people really thinking 629 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: that they didn't know what the answer was going to be? Um, 630 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: like how serious were they on the stage? No, don't 631 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: care about the stage that like that here, but I 632 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 1: mean like like was it did you know all along? 633 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: Like here's a predict okay, like here's another issue, like 634 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: I anticipate that pebble mind in Bristol Bay will not happen. 635 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: I believe it will never happen. Now, were there people 636 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: that said the listing will never happen? Or was it 637 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: really like people really felt that. I don't think that 638 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: anybody felt that it was a real possibility. Yeah, no, 639 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 1: I that was an absolutely real possibility, no question about that. 640 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: Sorry I didn't follow your line there. I Um no, 641 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody sat back and said that's never 642 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: gonna happen. They may have in two thousand ten UM 643 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: or even before that, but I can sure you're leading 644 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 1: up to it, everybody knew that that was was a 645 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: very strong possibility, and I don't think anybody really knew 646 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: up until the day of the announcement except those of 647 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: us that were really working on it extensively. I felt, 648 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: just as a biologist just thinking about what the determinations 649 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,760 Speaker 1: have threatened and endangered mean, and you know the criteria 650 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: by which they decide those um you know, I thought 651 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,840 Speaker 1: about it in that context. I thought about it in 652 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: what I could see playing out on the landscape. I 653 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 1: didn't think they could get a warranted They should get 654 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: a warranted. I felt that it would be not warranted 655 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: with all of those pieces in place. However, if they're 656 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: looking at the same data you're looking at, you feel 657 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:19,759 Speaker 1: like it should be. I feel I didn't feel I 658 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,399 Speaker 1: didn't think they could withstand legally a suit if they 659 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 1: did list the bird with all that in place, I really, 660 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 1: I really felt like we had enough to Now that 661 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: gets to the question of Okay, how much is enough? 662 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:33,640 Speaker 1: What do you want? I mean, grouse do you want, 663 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: we're not gonna have sixteen million again or whatever the 664 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,359 Speaker 1: hell the number one was. So you're saying that that, uh, 665 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: you're saying it. Had they said we're gonna list the 666 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,879 Speaker 1: stage growth, you felt that that you could have beat 667 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,800 Speaker 1: him in court. I think if someone would have sued 668 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: to say that was an inappropriate decision, as was done 669 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: with lesser prayer chickens a few years ago, that um 670 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: that the court would have said, no, I think there 671 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 1: is enough here. You you you're gonna have to go 672 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: not warranted. Um now, mind you, after they not warranted 673 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: was was put in place. Lawsuits came on both ends 674 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: of the extreme. You had. You had the hard left, 675 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,799 Speaker 1: some of the hard left environmental groups that sued because 676 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 1: I didn't think it was enough, and some of the 677 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: industry groups suited because I thought it was too much. Yeah, 678 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: everyone thinks at the mark because I got somewhere in 679 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 1: the middle. Yeah I had. I recently had a politician 680 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: telling me that he always knows when he's found his 681 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: spot when the far left and the far right are 682 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,400 Speaker 1: about the same. Mad, because then I know I've probably 683 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: got about where I need to be. But but it 684 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: was like it was generally in the in the hunting 685 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: and like in the sportsman world. In the hunting world, 686 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 1: it was generally applauded the not necessary because people were 687 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: so euphoric about, uh, the fact that all these like 688 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 1: disparate groups came together on behalf of this bird. So 689 00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 1: people thought, like this new conservation strategy that you it, 690 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: that that people could come together, sportsmen's groups, industry, the 691 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,719 Speaker 1: political world could come together see a problem coming down 692 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,759 Speaker 1: the line, address the problem effectively and not need to 693 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,360 Speaker 1: get into the game of of of using the Endangered 694 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: Species Act. That we were gonna like solve problems in 695 00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: some kind of way of like working together. Everyone's making 696 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: a little bit of sacrifice, everyone's putting up with a 697 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 1: little bit of inconvenience and stopping and preventing it from 698 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: becoming a cultural war. And and I want to talk 699 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: about that just a little bit because I experienced firsthand 700 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:42,160 Speaker 1: both the spot of owl approach and in that era 701 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,720 Speaker 1: and and sage grouse, and there they were very different, 702 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: and you hit the nail right on the head. We 703 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,359 Speaker 1: brought all of these groups together to talk about this. 704 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: Now it wasn't as proactive and and uh as as 705 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,919 Speaker 1: maybe we needed to maybe that should have started back 706 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: in two thousand five or two thousand we could got 707 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: ahead of the curve even better. But it's not that 708 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 1: back in the days of the spotted owl that the 709 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,760 Speaker 1: regulatory agencies weren't talking to the industry. They were talking 710 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: to counties, they were talking to all the different factions. 711 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: It's just it was just different back then. You know, 712 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 1: it wasn't as comprehensive and cohesive as it feels like 713 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: the sage grouse effort was. And mind you, there's a 714 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: whole lot more players on the sage grouse front than 715 00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: there were on the timber and you know, the on 716 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: the spotted owl issue, and that really wound up being 717 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 1: kind of a one size fits all. Do you hear 718 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: that rhetoric all the time, one size fits all federal 719 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 1: top down. That's really not how it was. Some will 720 00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:41,960 Speaker 1: argue with me, and that's fine. They can argue all 721 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: they want. But the reality is the sage grouse issue 722 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: was a little bit more organic and a little bit 723 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: more UH, you know, driven by state level UH players 724 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: and local working groups, collaborations with the states and the 725 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: fits and the and the counties and all the different industries. 726 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: The sportsman's groups were involved. Hell, we weren't involved with 727 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 1: spotted owls um because guys like me, they aren't interested 728 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 1: that nobody was going to shoot a spoted owl, you know. 729 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 1: And and uh, but you know, we weren't thinking as 730 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,960 Speaker 1: big about ecosystems. Then if you think about spotted owlgy 731 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: you start thinking about tu leolk for example, or some 732 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: other you know, or other types of species that we 733 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: might hunt in in old growth forest systems. But we 734 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: weren't thinking like that. We weren't even invited to the 735 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:31,320 Speaker 1: table the sportsman's groups. And you know that that plan 736 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 1: not to get too far down the spotted out path. 737 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: But the reality is that plan came down after a 738 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:42,000 Speaker 1: presidential summit that Clinton held. They brought some players together. Yeah, 739 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: they brought some players together. Then the FEDS went back 740 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: and wrote it and implemented it specifically to federal lands. 741 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: It's not the private lands weren't considered or somehow regulated, 742 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,560 Speaker 1: but they weren't part of the bigger picture strategy. And 743 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,960 Speaker 1: I can remember even having discussions when I was doing 744 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: some of my batwork talking about um, you know the 745 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: role of private lands and endangered species in the Northwest, 746 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:09,439 Speaker 1: and and spotted owls weren't on our lands, weren't even 747 00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 1: necessarily considered as part of the recovery process because it 748 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 1: was all about reserve systems on federal lands. Okay, so 749 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: that really was kind of a one size fits all 750 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: kind of a strategy. And back to your question, how 751 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:25,800 Speaker 1: they do and they're not doing so good, And maybe 752 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: if we would have done it like the sage grouse 753 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,120 Speaker 1: way back then in the nineteen eighties, it might have 754 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,359 Speaker 1: been a different outcome because they weren't even really considering 755 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: private lands that much. Private lands were still regulated, but 756 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: it was just kind of written off that the managed 757 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,359 Speaker 1: forest doesn't provide anything for spotted owls and we've got 758 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: to conserve them this way with a preservation system. That's 759 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: not at all what happened with the sage grouse. And again, 760 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:51,800 Speaker 1: kind of the point I was trying to make is 761 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 1: we've always talked to these different factions, but we never 762 00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: we haven't done it in a way we did with 763 00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: with the sage grouse issue. It's a new way of 764 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,120 Speaker 1: doing and conservation. I think it's the way we have 765 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: to do it with anything this at the stage forward 766 00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: landscape scale, multiple species, and everybody at the table from 767 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: the front end. And that doesn't mean every individual or 768 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:15,480 Speaker 1: every group, but you get those diverse voices in on 769 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 1: the front end sportsmen, groups, industry, and that's how you're 770 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,880 Speaker 1: going to get to making both both ends of the 771 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: extremes mad, probably because you find enough players that are 772 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,600 Speaker 1: willing to work to a compromise to the middle. Yeah, 773 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,160 Speaker 1: that's what this was in my humble opinion. And then 774 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,359 Speaker 1: and then what happened a month or so after we 775 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,200 Speaker 1: spoke last year, We had an election. So where we 776 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,440 Speaker 1: left off, you gave us a hypothetical, like you like 777 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: to do, We're gonna bury ourselves in a time capsule 778 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: right here in this spot where we were doing that 779 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,319 Speaker 1: podcast out in the sticks in five years from now, 780 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 1: where we're gonna be. And I expressed lots of optimism. 781 00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 1: And I didn't say it then, but I'd say, now, oh, 782 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: we're all gonna go hunt in sage grouse and do 783 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 1: a celebratory hunt. I was pretty optimistic because I felt, 784 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,239 Speaker 1: like I told you earlier, I felt like they got 785 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 1: to a not warranted in a legitimate and credible way. 786 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: It wasn't perfect um and everybody sacrifice something, but we 787 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 1: got a good comprehensive strategy that I didn't feel um 788 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: was going to yield stage grouse winding up on the 789 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,440 Speaker 1: you know, the threatened or an injured species list at 790 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,439 Speaker 1: some point down the road if it was implemented. That's 791 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: the key. So earlier he said, crunching the numbers. Well, 792 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: part of that was crunching the numbers to see what 793 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:42,879 Speaker 1: the trends in the habitat and what the trends in 794 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: the in the numbers of sage grouse were doing. But 795 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 1: what the Fishing Wilife Service used extensively in this decision, 796 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:54,719 Speaker 1: it was something called the Peace Policy PEC, the Policy 797 00:44:54,840 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 1: for to the Policy to Evaluate Conservation Effects. It's policy 798 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,759 Speaker 1: that was put in place in the early two thousands, 799 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,880 Speaker 1: and what it basically says is that when we make 800 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: a decision about it, and we the Fishing Wildlife Service, 801 00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,800 Speaker 1: are making a decision about a threatened or endangered species, 802 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: we will look at things that may manifest in the future. 803 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,680 Speaker 1: There's some regulatory certainty or some kind of administrative policy 804 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: or some level of certainty that these things are going 805 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,800 Speaker 1: to be implemented in the future, and we can consider 806 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,759 Speaker 1: that as part of our decision. And I can assure you. 807 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,759 Speaker 1: That was extensively used in this particular decision because the 808 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:39,040 Speaker 1: federal plans haven't played out yet. So like to go 809 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 1: to some guy, you're gonna buy the house from the guy, 810 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,399 Speaker 1: and you're like, man, you know the porch has fallen 811 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,319 Speaker 1: off the guys that listen, bro, I'm gonna fix this 812 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,480 Speaker 1: porch before the sale goes through. And you're like, okay, 813 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: I'm trusting that the ports is gonna be fixed. And 814 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 1: you come back and the house, go on and do 815 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:57,600 Speaker 1: the deal because the guy is going to fix the porch. 816 00:45:57,960 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 1: So what happens when you come back and it's not 817 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,920 Speaker 1: fixed you yet? Man? There was no assurance. No, But 818 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 1: if you sign that in a contract, in the agreement 819 00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: that you sign when you buy a house, it's like, 820 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,399 Speaker 1: we agree to these things. You come back, it better 821 00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: be fixed or you're gonna sue your ass. That's the 822 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,120 Speaker 1: It's a pretty good metaphor because that's basically what the 823 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,240 Speaker 1: Fishing Wilife Service looked at. I've got signed federal plans. 824 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: These are amendments to the Resource Management Plans for the 825 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: BLM and the Forest Plans for the Forest Service that 826 00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,440 Speaker 1: codifies they're going to do these things. That's an assurance 827 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: to the service that something's going to happen in the 828 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:39,239 Speaker 1: right direction. Um. That when we left off before, it 829 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 1: was kind of like there was a lot of promises 830 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: had been made, but the fulfillment stage hadn't begun, that's right, 831 00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,439 Speaker 1: and we were like, what six eight days after they've 832 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:51,600 Speaker 1: been signed, ink was hardly dry. Now, if I pop 833 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,880 Speaker 1: out of that timecats up there in the middle of nowhere, 834 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:56,880 Speaker 1: Wyoming where we all are hut in stats grouse and 835 00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: we were chatting about this, I don't know. I think 836 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 1: it's uh, it's up in the air a little bit, 837 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: but I'm still optimistic that we're going to do the 838 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:10,279 Speaker 1: right thing. And what has happened since then, we had 839 00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,320 Speaker 1: an election and a change in the administration. Secretary Zinci 840 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,280 Speaker 1: is now in charge of the Department of Interior. UM. 841 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: A couple of things that happened in between there somewhere 842 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,640 Speaker 1: and about January or February. Remember we've talked about some 843 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 1: of the bad language, and you've helped us with some 844 00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,840 Speaker 1: of this on the National Defense Authorization Act and some 845 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:34,000 Speaker 1: of these bad writers on these policies that basically was 846 00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:39,000 Speaker 1: handing over UH management authority to the States gave gugnatorial 847 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: veto power over any decision on stage, brush lands and 848 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,840 Speaker 1: the federal lands. Those kinds of things not not necessarily 849 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:47,920 Speaker 1: the best policy that we would we would agree with, 850 00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,759 Speaker 1: and we advocated pretty strongly against that. We'd only seen 851 00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:53,799 Speaker 1: that come out of the House in February. We saw 852 00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,239 Speaker 1: a centate version of that, and that that woke us 853 00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 1: up a little bit that now all of a sudden, 854 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,600 Speaker 1: there may be some potential traction here on both houses, 855 00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,160 Speaker 1: like where the House and Senate, So the US House 856 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: and Senate, your congressman and senators coming and saying, you know, 857 00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:17,879 Speaker 1: on second thought, let's not do what we said we're 858 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,840 Speaker 1: going to do. The stay at the stage goes, yeah, 859 00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 1: let's do something different. Let's let's hand it back over 860 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,720 Speaker 1: to the different on different climate, now, different political climate, 861 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:30,000 Speaker 1: different administration. I wish I kind of wish I hadn't 862 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,640 Speaker 1: said all that ship because it's not kind of inconvenient, 863 00:48:34,160 --> 00:48:37,840 Speaker 1: But that that woke us up a little bit, and 864 00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 1: only to the extent there were political motivations for the 865 00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,680 Speaker 1: why that was done and such, and they don't need 866 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 1: to get into it. But the reality was we now 867 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,600 Speaker 1: had a House and Senate version threatening some pretty bad legislation. 868 00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,320 Speaker 1: So one of the things we thought would be interesting 869 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,920 Speaker 1: and we worked with the Department of Interior at the 870 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,080 Speaker 1: time for us to get a secretary. We knew there 871 00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 1: were issues with the States. Let me back up just 872 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:00,640 Speaker 1: a little bit. I mean, look, not everybody got what 873 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,719 Speaker 1: they wanted. Some of the grazing community was unhappy with 874 00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:06,520 Speaker 1: certain prescriptions and some things that were playing out in 875 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:11,000 Speaker 1: the plans. Um there were mining is interests that were 876 00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 1: fired up. Um, there was um and this gets a 877 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:17,080 Speaker 1: little bit in the weeds, but there was a designate, 878 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: a prescription if you will, in these stage grounse amendments 879 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:25,680 Speaker 1: that were solidified in September of that added a designation 880 00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:29,680 Speaker 1: called focal areas. Now what these were. There's about thirty 881 00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: five million acres across BLM land of what's called priority habitat. 882 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:39,200 Speaker 1: It receives the highest priority and the most restrictive types 883 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 1: of prescriptions to manage sage brush. You can't occupy the 884 00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:46,240 Speaker 1: surface a certain number of miles or some buffer distance 885 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:51,359 Speaker 1: around the breeding grounds for for sage grounse um, other 886 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,880 Speaker 1: kinds of prescriptions that just basically try to keep it 887 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,960 Speaker 1: intact in in in in good habitat, quality and condition. 888 00:49:59,040 --> 00:50:02,840 Speaker 1: So on top of that, about a third of those acres, 889 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,040 Speaker 1: about ten million acres of that was scheduled for what 890 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 1: was called these focal areas, and it would and they 891 00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:12,200 Speaker 1: had to, uh are they The suggestion was to withdraw 892 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,640 Speaker 1: them from mining. So basically it removes them from the 893 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,120 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy two mining law. Now this gets complicated, but 894 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,040 Speaker 1: all you have to know about the eighteen seventy two 895 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,520 Speaker 1: mining law, I mean it was kind of a land rush, 896 00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:28,319 Speaker 1: kind of a of a prospector's um law back in 897 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:31,080 Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies, where you know, allowed people you and 898 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,200 Speaker 1: I go out and stake a claim on public lands. 899 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,600 Speaker 1: We just go out and look. It allows people to 900 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,880 Speaker 1: go look for for um minerals without even asking the 901 00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,040 Speaker 1: federal government's permission. Now, you can't do anything with it 902 00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: until you get permission. That's a permitting issue and such. 903 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,800 Speaker 1: But it allows you to go stake a claim, and 904 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:53,160 Speaker 1: if you have a valid claim um, it takes precedence 905 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,799 Speaker 1: over surface rights. So subsurface can always take precedent over 906 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,000 Speaker 1: surface rights. So if I literally really didn't own my 907 00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:04,439 Speaker 1: and my four acres here in the back lot there, 908 00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,040 Speaker 1: if I didn't own my mineral rights. Literally, an oil 909 00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:10,640 Speaker 1: and gas company, if they owned my mineral rights, they 910 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:12,920 Speaker 1: could come in and put a well right back there 911 00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:16,600 Speaker 1: in my yard today because your because your service rights 912 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,279 Speaker 1: cannot obstruct their ability to get there. And that goes 913 00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,080 Speaker 1: back to the Mineral Leasing while Act of ninety I 914 00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,239 Speaker 1: believe as well. So so this was a way. So 915 00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,960 Speaker 1: they had ten million acres and they and they wanted 916 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:34,840 Speaker 1: to withdraw all um, withdraw those acres from mineral claim. 917 00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,680 Speaker 1: And basically but ten million acres we would be withdrawn 918 00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:42,440 Speaker 1: from mineral claim. How many million acres would be with 919 00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:45,600 Speaker 1: drawn if the bird had been lifted. That's a really 920 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 1: good point. Um, Yeah, it could have been a lot more. 921 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: It would have been a lot more. Potentially hundreds of millions. Um, 922 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,439 Speaker 1: I mean hundreds of millions, but there's only a couple 923 00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,719 Speaker 1: hundred million. But it's certainly wherever there were minerals in stage, 924 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,400 Speaker 1: it would have been impacted, no question. And really what 925 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:05,520 Speaker 1: it was it was it was it was a reserve. 926 00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:09,920 Speaker 1: Ecologically speaking, the concept is sound. You know, you're trying 927 00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,960 Speaker 1: to get it's really the only way the Fish and 928 00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,560 Speaker 1: Wildlife Service can get ahead of the eighteen seventy two 929 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:18,440 Speaker 1: mining law is to withdraw those mineral right opportunity, you know, 930 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:21,400 Speaker 1: those opportunities way on the front end of planning. And 931 00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,200 Speaker 1: that's what they were really trying to do is saying, 932 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,920 Speaker 1: these are the this is the best of the best habitat. 933 00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,040 Speaker 1: This is where we'd like to see minerals withdrawn. And 934 00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:31,840 Speaker 1: these are basically reserves for sage brush. And it also 935 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:35,680 Speaker 1: set prioritization of you know, a variety of other things 936 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:40,279 Speaker 1: vegetation management, firefighting, all those kinds of things. But I 937 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:44,440 Speaker 1: can tell you that dropping that designation on top and 938 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,080 Speaker 1: keep in mind it's a subset of the priority habitat, 939 00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,239 Speaker 1: so it's already designated as priority habitat and already has 940 00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,360 Speaker 1: various restrictions around it that are codified in the in 941 00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,400 Speaker 1: the resource man. It's just like instead is super protected. 942 00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:00,440 Speaker 1: It's super duper protected, exactly so and um, if they 943 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:05,320 Speaker 1: went away, it would just take the dooper away really so. Um. 944 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,640 Speaker 1: But by law you have to do an environmental impact 945 00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:14,000 Speaker 1: statement um on the withdrawal specifically, And to make a 946 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:17,680 Speaker 1: long story short, and Nevada the this went to the courts, 947 00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:21,880 Speaker 1: UH mining industry and other suit on that and basically 948 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,440 Speaker 1: the court said, no, you have to go back and 949 00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:28,200 Speaker 1: do you violated the National Environmental Policy Act. You have 950 00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,480 Speaker 1: to go back and do a supplemental e I S 951 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,280 Speaker 1: Environmental Impact Statement to supplement the ones that are already existing, 952 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:38,680 Speaker 1: and and so that was decided, and then the mineral 953 00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:43,120 Speaker 1: withdraw part of that was decided was basically decided upon 954 00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,520 Speaker 1: a not very long ago, a couple of months ago, 955 00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,920 Speaker 1: where the BLM just said, we're not gonna, We're not gonna. 956 00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,560 Speaker 1: We're going with the no action alternative of this e 957 00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,840 Speaker 1: I S, which is we're not going to withdraw minerals 958 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,799 Speaker 1: from these areas. So that was the decision that was made. 959 00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,759 Speaker 1: So now you have these focal areas, but you can 960 00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,360 Speaker 1: still do mining claims within them. So basically they're managed 961 00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,320 Speaker 1: just as if they're priority habitat. Very little has changed. 962 00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:13,280 Speaker 1: But that designation of focal areas came down pretty pretty 963 00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:15,600 Speaker 1: late in the game, and it made a lot of 964 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:17,560 Speaker 1: the states mad and a lot of the players, man, 965 00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:23,160 Speaker 1: and it's become a hot button issue states and industry players. Yeah, 966 00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,800 Speaker 1: and it it really has become a hot button issue. 967 00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:29,200 Speaker 1: A couple other things that are in those plans um 968 00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:31,880 Speaker 1: that are you know, there's argument from the oil and 969 00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:37,280 Speaker 1: gas industry about density disturbance caps. There's a maximum amount 970 00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,000 Speaker 1: of disturbance that you can have in a particular landscape 971 00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:44,160 Speaker 1: because sage grouse are very sensitive to infrastructure development and 972 00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,200 Speaker 1: disturbance from vehicles and all the things that go with 973 00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:49,600 Speaker 1: developing an oil and gas well or wind facility or 974 00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:53,000 Speaker 1: anything else. So there's caps to that and buffers around 975 00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,040 Speaker 1: the lacking areas or the breeding sites where males go 976 00:54:56,120 --> 00:55:00,360 Speaker 1: to to find find the girls, and they're very sensitive 977 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:04,200 Speaker 1: that disturbance. So there have been the science basically supports that, 978 00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:07,040 Speaker 1: you know, once you get over a certain amount of disturbance, 979 00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:10,239 Speaker 1: you're gonna start seeing, you know, plumbering population numbers of 980 00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:13,360 Speaker 1: males at least attending the lex which theoretically track with 981 00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:18,080 Speaker 1: the population. So there's arguments about that. There were concerns 982 00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,799 Speaker 1: about grazing prescriptions. Notably, there's a seven inch double height 983 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,719 Speaker 1: that desires to have about seven inches of grass available 984 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,040 Speaker 1: when the birds are nesting for nesting covers so they 985 00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:33,400 Speaker 1: can avoid predators. Um, everybody's hung up on that seven inches. 986 00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,920 Speaker 1: There's actually quite a bit of flexibility in the plans, 987 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,640 Speaker 1: but there are many that want that removed, which would 988 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,360 Speaker 1: take an amendment. It would take a full blown plan amendment. 989 00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:47,600 Speaker 1: And so there's all kinds of concerns that were generated 990 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:53,160 Speaker 1: and that led um Mr Zinky to do a review 991 00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:56,239 Speaker 1: of the plans, and we we were supportive of a 992 00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,080 Speaker 1: secretarial order that tried to address these issues with the 993 00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,360 Speaker 1: states rather than blowing it up with this bad legislation 994 00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,919 Speaker 1: I was leading to alluding to earlier, where we now 995 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,160 Speaker 1: have a house and a center version. It's like, okay, 996 00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,120 Speaker 1: this has got a little more attraction than I used to. 997 00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,200 Speaker 1: A better way would be for the Secretary to try 998 00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:16,960 Speaker 1: to address these very specific issues that that may or 999 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:20,120 Speaker 1: may not affect grouse, you know deeply in the long run. 1000 00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:23,040 Speaker 1: Maybe it's just adjusting the boundaries a little bit, or 1001 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:26,520 Speaker 1: or changing changing a few pieces of the prescription. You 1002 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,359 Speaker 1: still get the same outcome in the long run, but 1003 00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,120 Speaker 1: you get rid of this toxic language, that kind of stuff. 1004 00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:36,520 Speaker 1: So they quietly come in, what are the problems? How 1005 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,319 Speaker 1: can we fix the problems not really damaging the plan? Right, 1006 00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,680 Speaker 1: And you're hopeful for that kind of treatment, yeah, exactly. 1007 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,400 Speaker 1: And what we were really hoping for, well, and we 1008 00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:47,600 Speaker 1: were hoping that the Secretary of Order would be very 1009 00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,960 Speaker 1: specific to the issues. But what it did was it 1010 00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:54,480 Speaker 1: called to put together a review team, and that review 1011 00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:57,719 Speaker 1: team consisted of the Fishing Wilife Service and BLM and 1012 00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:02,680 Speaker 1: some other players that were charged with basically looking at 1013 00:57:02,719 --> 00:57:07,080 Speaker 1: all these plans and listening to the states, listening to 1014 00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:11,319 Speaker 1: the stakeholders, and try to determine what the issues really were. Now, 1015 00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:13,719 Speaker 1: that in of itself is not an egregious act. If 1016 00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,680 Speaker 1: you or I were voted into Secretary of Interior next 1017 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 1: next time around, pointed appointed. Yeah, I mean you'd want 1018 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:21,560 Speaker 1: to you'd want to take a look at what the 1019 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,480 Speaker 1: predecessors did and just make some assessments. There's nothing wrong 1020 00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:27,800 Speaker 1: with that. But our concern was how Mr Zinky was 1021 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,280 Speaker 1: starting to talk about sage grouse. He was talking about 1022 00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,240 Speaker 1: managing population numbers, and he was talking about captive rearing 1023 00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,480 Speaker 1: programs to predator control, all these kinds of things that 1024 00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:41,040 Speaker 1: people have talked about and thought about a lot. But 1025 00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:43,520 Speaker 1: he wasn't talking about him the way biologists would talk 1026 00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:47,320 Speaker 1: about him. He was actually talking about him, in my opinion, 1027 00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:49,760 Speaker 1: as if they were going to be mitigation tools to 1028 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,640 Speaker 1: open up oil and gas. But you just captive, rear 1029 00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:56,680 Speaker 1: a few birds and throw them outain. All's good and well, okay, 1030 00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,240 Speaker 1: But here here getting into an important piece that we 1031 00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:03,960 Speaker 1: need to back up. Yea, because the original plan to 1032 00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:08,800 Speaker 1: recover sage grouse dealt with not going out and just 1033 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,720 Speaker 1: counting up birds, right, So not going out and saying 1034 00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:15,840 Speaker 1: like how many birds should we have? But it came 1035 00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,160 Speaker 1: down and looking like how much how many birds and 1036 00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:25,680 Speaker 1: how much available habitat Because a hail storm at the 1037 00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,480 Speaker 1: wrong on the wrong day in the spring, a hail 1038 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:32,560 Speaker 1: storm can cut your population in half, that's right, by 1039 00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:35,920 Speaker 1: cracking the eggs. All this stuff is habitat based, So 1040 00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:39,320 Speaker 1: you can destroy a whole. You can destroy a whole 1041 00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:41,960 Speaker 1: like brewd like you know, what do you call a 1042 00:58:41,960 --> 00:58:45,840 Speaker 1: bunch of brood? You can destroy like a whole area 1043 00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:50,440 Speaker 1: is brood clutch and then when they hatch, so you 1044 00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:53,400 Speaker 1: can have a bad hail storm on just the wrong 1045 00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:57,920 Speaker 1: day cracks thousands of bird eggs, let's say, and so 1046 00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,520 Speaker 1: then you have a falling population. If you just go 1047 00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:04,760 Speaker 1: by bird numbers, it's not particularly telling because you could 1048 00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:07,400 Speaker 1: have a really good situation where you like, there's so 1049 00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:11,160 Speaker 1: much habitat, so much food, I have no doubt the 1050 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:14,560 Speaker 1: next spring we're gonna totally rebound because all this stuff 1051 00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:18,200 Speaker 1: the hard to get ships there. The birds will be 1052 00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:21,200 Speaker 1: fine if you give them the habitat. And this is 1053 00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:25,600 Speaker 1: what conservation always comes down. It's like it generally when 1054 00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:28,640 Speaker 1: people are talking about like a conservation issue, the the 1055 00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:33,840 Speaker 1: wildlife populations respond to the habitat. Yeah, it's jeney. Watch habitat. 1056 00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:35,720 Speaker 1: If you look at the work, like if you can 1057 00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,680 Speaker 1: look at the work that Rocky Mountain out Foundation does, 1058 00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:43,480 Speaker 1: the work the National Wild Turkey Federation does, Duck's Unlimited. Oftentimes, 1059 00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:47,320 Speaker 1: these organizations are very focused on available habitat, knowing that 1060 00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:49,600 Speaker 1: the animals will take care of themselves. That's right if 1061 00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,240 Speaker 1: you give them a place to do it. So so 1062 00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:54,600 Speaker 1: the idea of like the recovery plan for sage grouse 1063 00:59:54,720 --> 01:00:00,360 Speaker 1: was really focused on habitat. The new idea is, you 1064 01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:04,000 Speaker 1: know what, let's just count birds and we will raise 1065 01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:06,960 Speaker 1: them in a pen and turn them loose and then count. 1066 01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,080 Speaker 1: So if we don't get the number that we want, 1067 01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:11,680 Speaker 1: will make it that we get the number we want 1068 01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:14,720 Speaker 1: by just letting them go like chickens and then counting 1069 01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:18,200 Speaker 1: at the right moment and be like see they're all there, 1070 01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:22,560 Speaker 1: which is fatally flawed and doomed, doomed to fail, but 1071 01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:26,479 Speaker 1: almost kind of cynical. It's like, oh, you want birds, 1072 01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:31,680 Speaker 1: do you here you go, buddy tomorrow. Which if we 1073 01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:35,880 Speaker 1: learned anything and other wild birds and other wild bird recoveries, 1074 01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:40,160 Speaker 1: is that pen raised birds don't work. That's right, especially 1075 01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:45,280 Speaker 1: for native grouse in the wild. Turkey, they spent millions 1076 01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:50,200 Speaker 1: thinking they were going to recover the wild turkey introduction 1077 01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:52,360 Speaker 1: program and the one and then what it wound up 1078 01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,760 Speaker 1: taking was it want up taking that you would capture birds, 1079 01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:01,880 Speaker 1: capture wild birds whose ants esters were wild and move 1080 01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,080 Speaker 1: those birds into new areas and you would recover the population. 1081 01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:09,640 Speaker 1: That's what it took. With turkeys, they spent the Turkey 1082 01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:13,160 Speaker 1: Federation in many states spent a small fortune learning that 1083 01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:18,400 Speaker 1: lesson at Water's prairie chicken. I mean, the only reason 1084 01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:20,880 Speaker 1: we really still have any at Water's prairie chicken is 1085 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,600 Speaker 1: because of a captive wearing program. But they can't get 1086 01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:27,880 Speaker 1: the birds that have been captively reared to then raise 1087 01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:31,120 Speaker 1: their own young out in the wild. Something that's lost. 1088 01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:33,520 Speaker 1: So you just gotta keep dumping them, and you're in 1089 01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,720 Speaker 1: this perpetual cycle of having to put birds on the 1090 01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,720 Speaker 1: landscapes to say that we still have Atwater's prairie chickens. Yeah, 1091 01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:41,520 Speaker 1: if you want to get a census, if you'd be interesting, 1092 01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,479 Speaker 1: it might even exist so much a drop of map 1093 01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:46,480 Speaker 1: that shows like the ringneck pheasant is not as much 1094 01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:48,320 Speaker 1: as you see like pheasants, pheasants, peasants in America. The 1095 01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:51,320 Speaker 1: ringneck feasant is not a native bird. Right if you'd 1096 01:01:51,360 --> 01:01:54,200 Speaker 1: made a map showing the usual to have a map 1097 01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:56,760 Speaker 1: of the US with one color showing where we have 1098 01:01:56,840 --> 01:02:00,200 Speaker 1: pheasants and one color showing where we would have since 1099 01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,760 Speaker 1: if it wasn't for releasing programs, Yeah, that'd be an 1100 01:02:03,800 --> 01:02:07,160 Speaker 1: interesting and interesting map. Chuckers too. I can tell you 1101 01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,160 Speaker 1: the one, The part that shows where we'd have birds 1102 01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:14,880 Speaker 1: it wasn't for supplemental stocking would be way, way, way 1103 01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:17,840 Speaker 1: smaller than the part showing where peasants are. Yep, it 1104 01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:22,280 Speaker 1: would you know where they first reintroduced peasants Lambt Valley, Oregon? 1105 01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:28,720 Speaker 1: They first place they were introduced in young guns. Um, yeah, 1106 01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:31,040 Speaker 1: and young guns he kicks up pheasant. Yeah, and remember 1107 01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:34,280 Speaker 1: thinking where there's peasants around back then? Yeah? Or that too, Uh, 1108 01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:36,840 Speaker 1: they get their stuff on button in the last and 1109 01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:39,280 Speaker 1: Mohicans they kill a red deer, red stag that's right 1110 01:02:39,320 --> 01:02:42,640 Speaker 1: in the east. Yeah, it's hard to pull that kind 1111 01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:44,560 Speaker 1: of stuff over on hunting guys. That's right. Like we 1112 01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:46,440 Speaker 1: watched movies and we're like, we always know when we 1113 01:02:46,480 --> 01:02:48,760 Speaker 1: smell something fishy with the wildlife. They used to like 1114 01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,520 Speaker 1: watching the old Johnny White Smueller Tar San movies and 1115 01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:53,320 Speaker 1: I'd hear a bird in the background. Oh, that's a 1116 01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:58,600 Speaker 1: freaking pilated woodpecker. Not endemic to Africa, I'm pretty sure. Alright, 1117 01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,800 Speaker 1: So yeah, so they get the idea. Yeah, you were 1118 01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:06,280 Speaker 1: just getting to the the incoming secretary starts talking about 1119 01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:10,800 Speaker 1: birds in a way that it doesn't sound like. It 1120 01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:12,959 Speaker 1: doesn't sound like we're on this sort of thing about 1121 01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:15,080 Speaker 1: how we're going to save the bird by that's right, 1122 01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:19,600 Speaker 1: protecting habitat, that's right. And you've also got an administration 1123 01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:23,520 Speaker 1: that is promoting energy. It was independence, now it's dominance. 1124 01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:27,200 Speaker 1: We just saw report come out recently from the Department 1125 01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:29,720 Speaker 1: Material on energy burdens and as you get you guys 1126 01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,840 Speaker 1: might imagine just about anything could be considered a burden 1127 01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:38,960 Speaker 1: to development. Um, so there's a lot of things aligning 1128 01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:42,720 Speaker 1: that make us concerned and nervous about this amendment process. 1129 01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,640 Speaker 1: And you know, it's no different than opening up the 1130 01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:48,760 Speaker 1: Endangered Species Act or any piece of legislation. If it's 1131 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:53,640 Speaker 1: targeted and specific to increasing efficiency and effectiveness and those 1132 01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:57,200 Speaker 1: kinds of things. That's hard to argue. But you know, 1133 01:03:57,240 --> 01:03:59,080 Speaker 1: everybody starts to want to hang an ornament on the 1134 01:03:59,160 --> 01:04:01,080 Speaker 1: Christmas tree and all of a sudden it falls down, 1135 01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:07,080 Speaker 1: So you know the motivations behind um the review. In 1136 01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:09,560 Speaker 1: my opinion, we're fine and solid. I'd want to review 1137 01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:12,840 Speaker 1: things that a predecessor had done before. But how that 1138 01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,720 Speaker 1: plays out is going to be interesting because we have yet. 1139 01:04:15,760 --> 01:04:19,160 Speaker 1: As I said about the Peace policy earlier, that not 1140 01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:24,400 Speaker 1: warranted decision was predicated heavily on things being implemented into 1141 01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:28,680 Speaker 1: the future, and not all BLM offices are implementing the 1142 01:04:28,720 --> 01:04:31,160 Speaker 1: plans in their fullest extent. There's a lot of confusion 1143 01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:34,480 Speaker 1: right now about where this is all gonna go. And 1144 01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:37,600 Speaker 1: you know, some some states and some offices are moving 1145 01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:40,640 Speaker 1: right ahead and some are still trying to figure it out. 1146 01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:43,720 Speaker 1: So but regardless, we have we have yet to see 1147 01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:47,840 Speaker 1: full blown implementation across the board, across age lands of 1148 01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:52,720 Speaker 1: these plants. So that's kind of weird short sighted that's 1149 01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:56,560 Speaker 1: going on right where if you have an administration come in, 1150 01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:00,400 Speaker 1: who an administration come in where they're like they they 1151 01:05:00,520 --> 01:05:05,760 Speaker 1: are not really worried about the bird, more worried about industry, 1152 01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:09,840 Speaker 1: and then you let the bird falter. You need to 1153 01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:12,640 Speaker 1: like think ahead because we have a thing that happens 1154 01:05:12,640 --> 01:05:16,160 Speaker 1: in this country where we have wild political vacillations, the 1155 01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:18,760 Speaker 1: pendulum swing as what we call, and someone else might 1156 01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,720 Speaker 1: come in in four years or in eight years. Another 1157 01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:24,600 Speaker 1: person is going to come in and they're gonna have 1158 01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:28,280 Speaker 1: their own appointee for the Secretary of Interior, and they're 1159 01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:32,520 Speaker 1: gonna look and be like, sons of bitches never did 1160 01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:34,960 Speaker 1: do the sage grouse thing. Right now, I am going 1161 01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:38,680 Speaker 1: to list them. Yeah. The fact that people go like, oh, 1162 01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:41,560 Speaker 1: the current climate will always be here, so let's just 1163 01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:44,960 Speaker 1: screw this whole sage grouse thing. You think that you'd 1164 01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:48,520 Speaker 1: still be real interested in solving the problem because you're 1165 01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:51,560 Speaker 1: not always going to have your people in charge. Well, 1166 01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:55,240 Speaker 1: you're you're interjecting long term thinking and rational thoughts, Stephen. 1167 01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:59,040 Speaker 1: Everybody thinks that way, you know, I mean, you know 1168 01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:01,280 Speaker 1: sometimes they just three thinks out to the next quarter 1169 01:06:01,320 --> 01:06:05,360 Speaker 1: and that's a year out maybe. Now that's long term 1170 01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:08,120 Speaker 1: thinking and planning. And look what happened with the Spotted Ault. 1171 01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:10,320 Speaker 1: Now that we've used that as our one of our 1172 01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:15,040 Speaker 1: talking points in this that pendulum swung hard, and too 1173 01:06:15,040 --> 01:06:17,320 Speaker 1: far hard in my opinion. I mean, we haven't seen 1174 01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:21,240 Speaker 1: meaningful timber harvest in a lot of places, particularly northwest, 1175 01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:23,720 Speaker 1: but for a long time since then. I mean, we've 1176 01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:27,640 Speaker 1: got old growth logging just just shut down. But a 1177 01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:29,840 Speaker 1: lot of logging on public lands is shut down. There's 1178 01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:31,600 Speaker 1: not much of a timber industry here in the Rocky 1179 01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:33,880 Speaker 1: Mountains either, quite frankly a little bit. But you know, 1180 01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,040 Speaker 1: you as you guys drive around and hut, you can 1181 01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:39,440 Speaker 1: see dead trees, lots of standing forest. You know, there's 1182 01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:43,000 Speaker 1: there's just it was a big pendulum swinging back then. Um, 1183 01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:45,200 Speaker 1: But prior to that, it was swung the other direction. 1184 01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:47,680 Speaker 1: They were they were cutting federal lands as if they 1185 01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:50,640 Speaker 1: were private lands to some extent. So and then, and 1186 01:06:50,720 --> 01:06:54,280 Speaker 1: make no mistake, the industry was warned well before the 1187 01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:56,000 Speaker 1: listing of the Spotted All. I know, the people that 1188 01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:58,880 Speaker 1: did the warning back in the seventies, they said, look, 1189 01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:00,480 Speaker 1: this is gonna be an issue for wars and we 1190 01:07:00,520 --> 01:07:02,080 Speaker 1: need to deal with it. And really about the only 1191 01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:05,000 Speaker 1: thing that happened in the in the years to come 1192 01:07:05,920 --> 01:07:09,320 Speaker 1: right before the listing was increased, accelerated timber harvest, which 1193 01:07:09,320 --> 01:07:13,240 Speaker 1: exacerbated the issue. So almost almost in a in a 1194 01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:15,640 Speaker 1: in a gosh, if we don't have the in the 1195 01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:17,480 Speaker 1: sense of, if we don't even have the habitat, we 1196 01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:20,200 Speaker 1: don't have to worry about this. But it didn't quite 1197 01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:22,480 Speaker 1: work out that that that that that like thinking of 1198 01:07:22,480 --> 01:07:25,040 Speaker 1: the next quarter, like profit earnings for the next quarter, 1199 01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:27,360 Speaker 1: next year, and very few people looking at what business 1200 01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:29,520 Speaker 1: like in five years, and this pendulum now is going 1201 01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:32,800 Speaker 1: to swing back eventually. Just listen. It's there's no way 1202 01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:36,240 Speaker 1: if they don't get if they don't get serious about 1203 01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:39,240 Speaker 1: this problem, there's no way that in four years someone's 1204 01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:40,680 Speaker 1: not gonna say, like, some of a bit, you should 1205 01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:44,000 Speaker 1: have got more serious about this problem. That's right, And 1206 01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:48,360 Speaker 1: you know, I'm still hopeful back to our time capsule 1207 01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:50,680 Speaker 1: thing five years from now. I'm still hopeful because we 1208 01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:55,960 Speaker 1: haven't nothing's really been done yet. Um it's but the 1209 01:07:56,000 --> 01:08:00,320 Speaker 1: stage is set and so the amendment process. Let me 1210 01:08:00,360 --> 01:08:02,560 Speaker 1: back up a little bit. So this report comes out 1211 01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:07,360 Speaker 1: UM Midsummer, so from the Secretary of the Secretarial Order 1212 01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:09,280 Speaker 1: came out and said, we're going to review these plans 1213 01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:10,960 Speaker 1: and look at them all, look at all these issues. 1214 01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:14,240 Speaker 1: It generated a list of issues that people had and 1215 01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:16,479 Speaker 1: then this review team, which is a very credible group 1216 01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:21,320 Speaker 1: of individuals, put together a matrix of actions. So some 1217 01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:24,240 Speaker 1: of them were short terms, some of them were long term. 1218 01:08:24,280 --> 01:08:28,320 Speaker 1: So for example, UM, if they wanted to completely eliminate 1219 01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:31,760 Speaker 1: these focal areas, it would require a plan amendment. If 1220 01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:37,599 Speaker 1: they wanted to change certain prescriptions in UM the grazing section, 1221 01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:41,720 Speaker 1: that might require an amendment. Now, the amendment process in 1222 01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:46,320 Speaker 1: BLM planning is extensive, at minimum probably eighteen months, it 1223 01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:50,360 Speaker 1: could go out for another three years. So some of 1224 01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:54,000 Speaker 1: these things that need to be fixed, we felt a 1225 01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:57,920 Speaker 1: lot of those things could be fixed with just clarification, training, 1226 01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:02,479 Speaker 1: better instruction, and here's how you need to implement these things. 1227 01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:06,960 Speaker 1: Others UM might require a plan amendment. But our position was, 1228 01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:08,800 Speaker 1: why don't you let this play out a little bit 1229 01:09:09,400 --> 01:09:13,479 Speaker 1: and just actually implement the plans, gather some information and 1230 01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:16,000 Speaker 1: see what needs to be fixed. Then, but there's a 1231 01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:18,320 Speaker 1: rush you know, people are kind of looking at the 1232 01:09:18,360 --> 01:09:20,960 Speaker 1: clock and this administration may or may not be around 1233 01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:24,120 Speaker 1: in and it's going to take three years probably to 1234 01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:27,479 Speaker 1: get through this amendment process. So now what's happening is 1235 01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:30,800 Speaker 1: there's they're going to open up the plans potentially for 1236 01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:35,479 Speaker 1: an amendment process. Right now, they're taking public comment on 1237 01:09:36,439 --> 01:09:40,000 Speaker 1: um the federal plans and whether they should be amended 1238 01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:43,600 Speaker 1: and changed basically, so you've got them codified now in 1239 01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:46,920 Speaker 1: the current resource management plan that was that was changed 1240 01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:52,040 Speaker 1: in September fifteen that got us to the not warranted. 1241 01:09:52,320 --> 01:09:54,000 Speaker 1: Now they're looking at change in it. We haven't even 1242 01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:57,439 Speaker 1: hardly gotten started yet. So so where's the where's the 1243 01:09:57,560 --> 01:10:00,360 Speaker 1: like the sportsman community add on this? Now? Well, if 1244 01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:03,040 Speaker 1: you look at like like the hunter based conservation community, 1245 01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:06,519 Speaker 1: where do they tend to be on what should be happening? Well, 1246 01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:11,080 Speaker 1: I know of no mainstream or or other type organization 1247 01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:15,360 Speaker 1: that is engaged or cognizantly cognizant aware of the issue 1248 01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:17,840 Speaker 1: that really wants this opened up, except a couple of 1249 01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:21,479 Speaker 1: fringe element type groups. But the vast majority of the 1250 01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:25,000 Speaker 1: sports and groups don't want to to open these plans up. 1251 01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:30,479 Speaker 1: They want to get them implemented, I mean, everybody refined, implemented. Sure. 1252 01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,320 Speaker 1: I mean, look, no credible scientists or biologists would say 1253 01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:35,240 Speaker 1: that it's a bad idea to make something better if 1254 01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:37,479 Speaker 1: you got data to prove it. I mean, but the 1255 01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:39,960 Speaker 1: problem is they don't have a lot of existing information 1256 01:10:40,320 --> 01:10:42,960 Speaker 1: to demonstrate that something will or will not work. So, 1257 01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:46,719 Speaker 1: for example, if the industry wants to come back and say, well, gosh, 1258 01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:48,960 Speaker 1: you know, we don't think this disturbance cap of a 1259 01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:55,040 Speaker 1: maximum of five cent in some landscape area is correct. 1260 01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:57,880 Speaker 1: We think it should be. They don't have any data 1261 01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:00,000 Speaker 1: to prove that, I can assure you, but they may 1262 01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:02,559 Speaker 1: a lobby to have it changed. They just don't have 1263 01:11:02,600 --> 01:11:04,760 Speaker 1: any scientific information to back And that's kind of been 1264 01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:08,160 Speaker 1: our position from day one. If there is science underpinning 1265 01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:12,519 Speaker 1: a buffer distance or a disturbance cap in an area 1266 01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:16,360 Speaker 1: or whatever the prescription is, let's use that to improve 1267 01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:19,400 Speaker 1: the plans. But there's a lot of those areas that, 1268 01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:24,920 Speaker 1: in my humble opinion, don't have that science, and it's 1269 01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:28,000 Speaker 1: it's not supported and substantiated. A lot of times, what 1270 01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:29,960 Speaker 1: we'll hear industry say is that a lot of the 1271 01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:33,000 Speaker 1: energy studies and there's probably twenty five plus studies that 1272 01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:36,599 Speaker 1: have looked at energy impacts on grouse. None of them 1273 01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:40,000 Speaker 1: say energy development is good for grouse. That's one bit 1274 01:11:40,040 --> 01:11:43,760 Speaker 1: of information. All of them collectively pretty much say that 1275 01:11:43,920 --> 01:11:48,439 Speaker 1: it's negative at some level. And you know, I'm a scientist. 1276 01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:50,040 Speaker 1: I can pick or at least I used to be 1277 01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,680 Speaker 1: practitioning scientists. I can. I can find a hole in 1278 01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:56,320 Speaker 1: every piece of every study that's out there. I mean, 1279 01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:59,360 Speaker 1: ecology isn't perfect, and you can find a hole in 1280 01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:01,559 Speaker 1: a study. But the weight of evidence, this is like 1281 01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:03,439 Speaker 1: the way I like to couch this. The weight of 1282 01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:08,080 Speaker 1: evidence is very clear that energy development at certain levels 1283 01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:11,240 Speaker 1: has an impact on the bird. There's just no denying that. 1284 01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:13,760 Speaker 1: But one of the arguments is that while all those 1285 01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:16,519 Speaker 1: studies looked at the old technology, now we've got the 1286 01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:19,840 Speaker 1: new technology where we can put multiple pads on our 1287 01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:23,720 Speaker 1: multiple wells on a pad, which is true. Um, we 1288 01:12:23,800 --> 01:12:26,599 Speaker 1: have less disturbance on the landscape. That's true as well, 1289 01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:30,280 Speaker 1: but at some level that doesn't That argue doesn't matter. 1290 01:12:30,640 --> 01:12:33,360 Speaker 1: It's still disturbance on the landscape and the birds are 1291 01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:35,920 Speaker 1: going to respond at some level to that disturbance, So 1292 01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:38,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter if you're drilling horizontally three miles out 1293 01:12:38,800 --> 01:12:44,440 Speaker 1: or straight down three it's still infrastructure and they're still disturbance. 1294 01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:48,080 Speaker 1: So um, you know, they're going to have to demonstrate 1295 01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:51,000 Speaker 1: that it's more than just a new technology that you know, 1296 01:12:51,360 --> 01:12:55,160 Speaker 1: they have information that would demonstrate there's a reason you 1297 01:12:55,200 --> 01:12:59,360 Speaker 1: can shrink those those buffers or or expand them or whatever, 1298 01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:04,720 Speaker 1: and I haven't seen that information yet. So but there's 1299 01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:06,639 Speaker 1: a lot of efforts that are ongoing now and new 1300 01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,160 Speaker 1: science that's coming. But but the bottom line is we've 1301 01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:12,600 Speaker 1: got to implement these plans, and you know, there's some 1302 01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:15,200 Speaker 1: tweaking of the plans that can happen right now that 1303 01:13:15,439 --> 01:13:18,080 Speaker 1: it's like I said, if if the focal area boundaries 1304 01:13:18,120 --> 01:13:21,400 Speaker 1: were you know, to somehow that disappear, I don't think 1305 01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:23,479 Speaker 1: grouse are going to disappear. I also don't know that 1306 01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:26,559 Speaker 1: it's necessary to completely open up the plans to do that, 1307 01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:30,120 Speaker 1: but that may be where they go. But the thing 1308 01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:32,760 Speaker 1: people have to remember is that it's just a sub 1309 01:13:32,840 --> 01:13:36,640 Speaker 1: designation within that broader designation of priority habitat. All of 1310 01:13:36,680 --> 01:13:39,439 Speaker 1: that habitat is still going to be managed, you know, 1311 01:13:39,880 --> 01:13:44,240 Speaker 1: unless those prescriptions change. That's our concern. So what's what's 1312 01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:46,160 Speaker 1: the next step for people and what what should people 1313 01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:48,040 Speaker 1: be If people are folowing this issue, what's the thing 1314 01:13:48,080 --> 01:13:50,719 Speaker 1: they should be doing now? Well, the public needs to 1315 01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:54,280 Speaker 1: to express their and our sportsmen's community need to express themselves. 1316 01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:56,880 Speaker 1: We've got an open action alert now. And basically what 1317 01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:00,200 Speaker 1: we're saying is that, you know, some target it at 1318 01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:03,960 Speaker 1: amendments that are supported with scientific information you know could 1319 01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:07,040 Speaker 1: be acceptable, but don't be throwing the baby out with 1320 01:14:07,120 --> 01:14:09,639 Speaker 1: the bathwater. Here and by the way, Governor's meeting hick 1321 01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:11,519 Speaker 1: and Looper, who you've shared the stage with and know 1322 01:14:11,680 --> 01:14:15,120 Speaker 1: their work quite well. Republican and Democrat, yep, both working 1323 01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:18,599 Speaker 1: on sage grouse. They're saying the same things. Let let 1324 01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:22,240 Speaker 1: the plans work, let the collaboration work. Don't make this 1325 01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:25,240 Speaker 1: a federal top down war on the West. Is some 1326 01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:28,200 Speaker 1: proclaim on on different sides of the aisle, I mean, 1327 01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:31,120 Speaker 1: it's not that different. Let this play out and work. 1328 01:14:31,320 --> 01:14:34,599 Speaker 1: Some targeted changes can be acceptable, but don't don't be 1329 01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:38,080 Speaker 1: making major wholescale changes. So we've got an open action 1330 01:14:38,120 --> 01:14:41,040 Speaker 1: alert now, um, and you can just go to the 1331 01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:46,160 Speaker 1: Theater Roosevelt Conservation Partnership's website and take action on sage grouse, 1332 01:14:46,200 --> 01:14:48,160 Speaker 1: and basically what it says is that we don't want 1333 01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:49,960 Speaker 1: to see whole scale changes. We want to see this 1334 01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:54,599 Speaker 1: collaboration work um targeted changes maybe in the future. But 1335 01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:57,800 Speaker 1: that's kind of what it basically says. So that's what 1336 01:14:57,840 --> 01:14:59,519 Speaker 1: they should be doing. But they should also, you know, 1337 01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:04,000 Speaker 1: people should just be aware and paying attention to And 1338 01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:05,519 Speaker 1: it kind of comes back to what you said, this 1339 01:15:05,600 --> 01:15:08,120 Speaker 1: is a new way of conservation in my opinion, and 1340 01:15:08,360 --> 01:15:10,200 Speaker 1: many of my colleagues and many of the people you 1341 01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:13,800 Speaker 1: talked to say the same thing. Uh, you know, the 1342 01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:19,040 Speaker 1: way the stage grouse plans and this whole manifestation of 1343 01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:23,400 Speaker 1: conservation strategy to get to that not warranted decision really 1344 01:15:23,560 --> 01:15:28,400 Speaker 1: was a miracle and and really a a major milestone 1345 01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:31,040 Speaker 1: in contemporary wildline. It was such a piece of good news. Man, 1346 01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:35,120 Speaker 1: it was like this euphoric moment. It was. And again, 1347 01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:37,080 Speaker 1: not everybody got what they wanted, and some of the 1348 01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:40,640 Speaker 1: fringe elements are really pissed and fired up. But the 1349 01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:43,280 Speaker 1: bottom line is it was a hell of an effort 1350 01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:44,800 Speaker 1: to get it there. Now we've got to make it 1351 01:15:44,880 --> 01:15:47,760 Speaker 1: manifest on the landscape because right now there's a lot 1352 01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:50,160 Speaker 1: of areas that are just paper birds and paper habitat. 1353 01:15:50,439 --> 01:15:53,680 Speaker 1: It's all in in a document until it manifests on 1354 01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:56,679 Speaker 1: the ground. That's when we get real habitat and real birds. 1355 01:15:57,040 --> 01:15:58,920 Speaker 1: That's what we got to have happen. You think, from 1356 01:15:58,920 --> 01:16:01,120 Speaker 1: my personal perspective that the always makes me think of 1357 01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:06,280 Speaker 1: is that if you're like like hunters and fishermen, really 1358 01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:11,160 Speaker 1: it's those that you don't have a political home. No, 1359 01:16:11,320 --> 01:16:13,080 Speaker 1: this is me talking to person. I want to implicate 1360 01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:14,920 Speaker 1: you in this, but like you don't have a political 1361 01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:17,920 Speaker 1: home because the political world is too dirty, like from 1362 01:16:17,920 --> 01:16:21,880 Speaker 1: the left. Okay, like that again, I'm not implicating eding 1363 01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:23,559 Speaker 1: this observation at all, but from the left, from the 1364 01:16:23,560 --> 01:16:26,840 Speaker 1: Democrats side, you have like an atmosphere that's not like 1365 01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:31,600 Speaker 1: this is culturally oftentimes culturally hostile to hunters. Like right now, 1366 01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:33,559 Speaker 1: there's a thing in Arizona. Is a referendum coming up 1367 01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:37,120 Speaker 1: in Arizona. It's a band lion hunting and bobcats. I 1368 01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:40,400 Speaker 1: promise you a Republican did not put that up right. Okay, 1369 01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:45,160 Speaker 1: So we're always getting attacked on the Democrat side, You're 1370 01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:48,400 Speaker 1: always gonna attacked culturally. People are trying to restrict your rights, 1371 01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:53,080 Speaker 1: mess with wildlife management. Give like New Jersey cat ladies 1372 01:16:53,120 --> 01:16:56,080 Speaker 1: sort of an outside outsized voice, and how we managed 1373 01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:59,439 Speaker 1: wildlife in America banned certain hunting practices. You're just getting 1374 01:16:59,439 --> 01:17:02,960 Speaker 1: attacked all of time there firearms issues, and then from 1375 01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:07,000 Speaker 1: the Republican side, Roys gonna attack on habitat issues. Yeah, 1376 01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:10,440 Speaker 1: it's like I want to start a new political party, 1377 01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:12,400 Speaker 1: call like the Roosevelt Party, which is gonna be like 1378 01:17:12,600 --> 01:17:15,040 Speaker 1: any kind of any kind of yeah, the Bull Moose Party. 1379 01:17:15,240 --> 01:17:18,040 Speaker 1: Any social issue would be like, no comment, It'll be 1380 01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:25,360 Speaker 1: fiscally conservative, robust, military like ardently pro habitat. I like that, 1381 01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:33,400 Speaker 1: and like a socially liberal social libertarian social libertarian listen, 1382 01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:37,560 Speaker 1: privacy of your own home, bro, like a strong respect 1383 01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:41,160 Speaker 1: for that, but jelly social issues, no comment. You'll figure 1384 01:17:41,200 --> 01:17:46,880 Speaker 1: it out on your own privately. Please. But uh it 1385 01:17:47,000 --> 01:17:50,040 Speaker 1: just sucks, man, And I know, like I know it. 1386 01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:52,000 Speaker 1: Give mean people in the political world, like who are 1387 01:17:52,040 --> 01:17:54,560 Speaker 1: like people who are willing to work in a bipartisan 1388 01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:57,400 Speaker 1: way from the right and from the left to come 1389 01:17:57,439 --> 01:18:00,320 Speaker 1: to like good decisions and like have wildlife in mind. 1390 01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:02,679 Speaker 1: Like those people do exist, but those people are generally 1391 01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:07,400 Speaker 1: regarded as like very quiet individuals. Yeah, that, and most 1392 01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:11,280 Speaker 1: people in America, like I can't understand people who speak 1393 01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:17,400 Speaker 1: in a pragmatic, quiet way. They can only understand just 1394 01:18:17,479 --> 01:18:21,120 Speaker 1: like in like loud insanity or not understand. But but 1395 01:18:21,160 --> 01:18:23,360 Speaker 1: they like it because it's like, oh, I get that. 1396 01:18:23,400 --> 01:18:25,720 Speaker 1: I can get that so easily. That's easy for me 1397 01:18:25,760 --> 01:18:28,479 Speaker 1: to understand. Complicated ship. I don't want to. I don't 1398 01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:32,320 Speaker 1: have time for complicated ship. I want the one sentence fixed, 1399 01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:35,840 Speaker 1: and you wind up. It just gets so frustrating, man. 1400 01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:38,320 Speaker 1: And these are complicated issues, right, and they're hard to 1401 01:18:38,320 --> 01:18:40,599 Speaker 1: put in one sentence, but you have to because I mean, 1402 01:18:40,680 --> 01:18:43,280 Speaker 1: you guys do this and in television all the time, 1403 01:18:43,320 --> 01:18:46,280 Speaker 1: you've got a message in a way that resonates with 1404 01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:48,760 Speaker 1: a much broader audience than than the three of us 1405 01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:51,240 Speaker 1: sitting here. And I had to do that when I 1406 01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:53,760 Speaker 1: was doing my science. Now that I'm glad we brought 1407 01:18:53,800 --> 01:18:55,920 Speaker 1: up the warehouse or connection, we'll just come back to 1408 01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:59,560 Speaker 1: that because I you know, I remember being a scientist 1409 01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:02,120 Speaker 1: in that organization. But you had to also be a 1410 01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:04,559 Speaker 1: pretty good communicator with those that didn't want to know. 1411 01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:07,719 Speaker 1: They just didn't want to underdo about all your science. 1412 01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:10,240 Speaker 1: I was even told one time it's like, we hired 1413 01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:11,840 Speaker 1: you because we thought you were a good scientist. I 1414 01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:13,920 Speaker 1: want to hear all that ship about statistics and such. 1415 01:19:13,960 --> 01:19:16,320 Speaker 1: Tell me what it means, what the bottom line is, 1416 01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:19,240 Speaker 1: Why should we care? What's the bottom line for the business, 1417 01:19:19,240 --> 01:19:21,960 Speaker 1: and how can we fix it? So you've got to 1418 01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:25,200 Speaker 1: You've gotta break things down and make it important to 1419 01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:28,679 Speaker 1: to not in this case managers, but to the public. 1420 01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:30,360 Speaker 1: It's like, why is it important? Why should you give 1421 01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:33,120 Speaker 1: a shit about sage grouse? And not that many people 1422 01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:35,600 Speaker 1: probably do in the big picture until you put it 1423 01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:39,439 Speaker 1: in a broader context. Because how we learned to address 1424 01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:45,560 Speaker 1: the sage grouse issue, It's gonna it's gonna have implications 1425 01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:49,479 Speaker 1: for every other situation when this comes up, and this 1426 01:19:49,560 --> 01:19:52,920 Speaker 1: will continuously come up. And right now we're talking about 1427 01:19:52,920 --> 01:19:55,639 Speaker 1: it with sage grouse, We're talking about it with wolves 1428 01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:59,080 Speaker 1: in the Upper Gray Lakes, We're talking about it with 1429 01:19:59,120 --> 01:20:01,800 Speaker 1: grizzly bears. Tomorrow. I don't even know who we're gonna 1430 01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:04,760 Speaker 1: be telling. My prediction is the Northern Great Plains and 1431 01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:07,479 Speaker 1: the short grass prairie, that prairie system there is going 1432 01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:10,280 Speaker 1: to be the next sage brush and sage crouse and 1433 01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:15,639 Speaker 1: ducks right well, and sharp tail grouse, prarie chickens. Yeah, 1434 01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:18,120 Speaker 1: we had a big conversation ducks a long time ago. 1435 01:20:19,280 --> 01:20:22,559 Speaker 1: But you know the Prey Pahole region, ye, so yeah, 1436 01:20:22,720 --> 01:20:25,160 Speaker 1: and look at the well, look at the look at 1437 01:20:25,160 --> 01:20:27,200 Speaker 1: the baking, look at wind development in that kind of 1438 01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:30,559 Speaker 1: that that area is considered the Saudi Arabia wind. The 1439 01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:33,480 Speaker 1: only reason it has been developed extensively. There's no transmission 1440 01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:37,840 Speaker 1: right now. So so it's like there's a lot forthcoming 1441 01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:41,200 Speaker 1: and big. But to get into a situation where we 1442 01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:44,040 Speaker 1: can look at conservation issues and look at wildlife issues 1443 01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:47,360 Speaker 1: and sort of make like a template for how to 1444 01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:50,960 Speaker 1: approach long term issues that will insulate them a little 1445 01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:54,760 Speaker 1: bit from wild political vacillations. And I think we know 1446 01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:56,479 Speaker 1: how to do it. I mean, I'm not gonna tell 1447 01:20:56,479 --> 01:20:58,400 Speaker 1: you all the sciences there, but I've been playing this 1448 01:20:58,439 --> 01:21:00,960 Speaker 1: game a long time, and you know, the reality is, 1449 01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:03,200 Speaker 1: we've got the tools. We've got a good chunk of 1450 01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:08,240 Speaker 1: the science. We know conceptually how to do adaptive management, 1451 01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:10,679 Speaker 1: which is learning by doing. We do something on the ground, 1452 01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:12,679 Speaker 1: we monitor it, and then we fix it and do something. 1453 01:21:12,680 --> 01:21:15,160 Speaker 1: You know, We've got all those kinds of tools and 1454 01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:17,320 Speaker 1: now we really know who all the players need to be. 1455 01:21:17,439 --> 01:21:21,479 Speaker 1: We just need to incentivize the conservation efforts and make 1456 01:21:21,520 --> 01:21:24,160 Speaker 1: every give everybody's skin in the game. And I've always 1457 01:21:24,160 --> 01:21:26,880 Speaker 1: said that if we've got to make conservation and investment 1458 01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:30,200 Speaker 1: not an impediment, and we're doing that, you know, in 1459 01:21:30,240 --> 01:21:31,720 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. But we need to do it 1460 01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:35,000 Speaker 1: more because we're not growing any more acres. No, I 1461 01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:38,160 Speaker 1: can tell you that we're losing acres and look at 1462 01:21:38,160 --> 01:21:40,840 Speaker 1: Ghost the Ghost, it's we're losing acres. We're not gonna 1463 01:21:40,880 --> 01:21:43,040 Speaker 1: grow anymore. We've gotta do good with what we got 1464 01:21:43,240 --> 01:21:45,080 Speaker 1: for sure. And it's like it's even it's even more 1465 01:21:45,120 --> 01:21:48,599 Speaker 1: complicated because I feel like, you know, Secretary Zink, he's 1466 01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:50,840 Speaker 1: done a lot of great stuff with access this using 1467 01:21:50,920 --> 01:21:53,200 Speaker 1: other things. So it's like he's in a situation where 1468 01:21:53,360 --> 01:21:56,720 Speaker 1: you kind of it's like getting heat on one thing, right, 1469 01:21:56,800 --> 01:21:59,479 Speaker 1: and you're trying to like satisfy and do something clearly 1470 01:21:59,479 --> 01:22:01,800 Speaker 1: trying to do some good things for sportsman's access and 1471 01:22:01,840 --> 01:22:04,200 Speaker 1: other issues, and getting hammered on other stuff. So it's 1472 01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:06,559 Speaker 1: like it's a hard for a person to find that 1473 01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:10,040 Speaker 1: happy ground where just the radical right and the radical 1474 01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:13,200 Speaker 1: left or Piste, it wasn't being very difficult for political 1475 01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:15,760 Speaker 1: operators to work in this situation. And just to look 1476 01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:17,960 Speaker 1: at the Sage Gross site, like, here's another complicated thing. 1477 01:22:19,160 --> 01:22:22,880 Speaker 1: Those people like like the people in industry have been 1478 01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:28,120 Speaker 1: screwed before, and Western and states have been screwed before, 1479 01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:30,840 Speaker 1: as they keep getting screwed on wolf, on the wolf 1480 01:22:30,880 --> 01:22:34,040 Speaker 1: issue and on the grizzlieshoe where you like you came 1481 01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:38,839 Speaker 1: and said, we agreed, we agreed what grizzly bear recovery 1482 01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:42,639 Speaker 1: looks like. We talked about it twenty years ago. We've 1483 01:22:42,720 --> 01:22:46,600 Speaker 1: met that for thirteen years goal post. So it's like, 1484 01:22:46,720 --> 01:22:48,719 Speaker 1: and we made a plan on wolves. Do you remember 1485 01:22:48,800 --> 01:22:51,360 Speaker 1: we talked about what wolf recovery would look like, we 1486 01:22:51,439 --> 01:22:56,439 Speaker 1: achieved it. Why do we still have to talk about 1487 01:22:56,439 --> 01:23:00,000 Speaker 1: it now? So they do get screwed on stuff. Yeah, 1488 01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:02,639 Speaker 1: it's like and I think screwing them on those things 1489 01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:05,080 Speaker 1: coming from the rat they're coming from like screwing him 1490 01:23:05,120 --> 01:23:09,120 Speaker 1: from the radical left perspective winds up making people put 1491 01:23:09,200 --> 01:23:12,320 Speaker 1: up walls and not wanting to have conversations that could 1492 01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:15,320 Speaker 1: be more effective. Well, it's probably one of the consequences 1493 01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:17,760 Speaker 1: of partisan politics. And we're very partisan now and that 1494 01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:21,840 Speaker 1: pendulum swings back. My fear is that it swings back 1495 01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:24,960 Speaker 1: the other direction too far. Can't we figure out a 1496 01:23:25,120 --> 01:23:28,280 Speaker 1: space in the middle my new political party, Yeah exactly, 1497 01:23:28,400 --> 01:23:31,600 Speaker 1: I like that parties in the middle, the one in 1498 01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:34,200 Speaker 1: the middle. Well, I'd sign up for that party. Yeah. 1499 01:23:34,200 --> 01:23:36,639 Speaker 1: When I get that party going and we got the House, Senate, 1500 01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:38,599 Speaker 1: White House, I to have all that. We have, all 1501 01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:43,120 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court nominees. Wildlife's gonna be solid, man. Well, 1502 01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:47,040 Speaker 1: good hunting and fishing, and we'll make conservation and investment 1503 01:23:47,080 --> 01:23:51,200 Speaker 1: for everybody's future. And in good mountain lion seasons and 1504 01:23:51,240 --> 01:23:58,240 Speaker 1: all appropriate locations. Any concluding thoughts, Well, yeah, you were 1505 01:23:58,400 --> 01:24:02,639 Speaker 1: telling me the other day we were talking about um 1506 01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:06,519 Speaker 1: uh mountain men, I believe, right, And how like everybody's 1507 01:24:06,520 --> 01:24:08,280 Speaker 1: talking about how you want to go back in time, 1508 01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:11,280 Speaker 1: like see what the country was like back then, right, 1509 01:24:11,479 --> 01:24:15,840 Speaker 1: and everybody has these like visions, right, and that's what 1510 01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:18,360 Speaker 1: we hope for. Well, I think like now is the 1511 01:24:18,479 --> 01:24:21,439 Speaker 1: time to try to like look to the future and 1512 01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:24,439 Speaker 1: think like that our kids are gonna want to go. Man. 1513 01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:26,600 Speaker 1: I wish I could have seen what that sage for 1514 01:24:26,720 --> 01:24:29,080 Speaker 1: see was like back then. Wish I could have seen 1515 01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:31,200 Speaker 1: all that. That was pretty damn cool, and we need 1516 01:24:31,240 --> 01:24:34,400 Speaker 1: to really keep that and you know, like keep thinking 1517 01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:36,360 Speaker 1: about that because it's so easy, I think, to forget 1518 01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:41,960 Speaker 1: with all the just it is, the partisan stuff of it, 1519 01:24:42,040 --> 01:24:43,559 Speaker 1: you know, and you just couldn't get wrapped up in 1520 01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:46,519 Speaker 1: emotions and just think about the big picture. Doesn't matter 1521 01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:50,160 Speaker 1: what political party you're affiliated with. Like, we all want 1522 01:24:50,160 --> 01:24:51,880 Speaker 1: to look back and kind of we wish we could 1523 01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:55,240 Speaker 1: see what this country looks like a hundred years ago. Right, Yeah, 1524 01:24:55,240 --> 01:24:58,800 Speaker 1: that's story. That's almost something that people like universally agree about. 1525 01:25:00,960 --> 01:25:03,439 Speaker 1: People who are interested in I mean, this is a 1526 01:25:03,439 --> 01:25:08,599 Speaker 1: wide net right. People are interested in wildlife, hunting, American history, 1527 01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:13,920 Speaker 1: Western history, pioneer history, Dan Boone, whatever, people are interested 1528 01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:17,800 Speaker 1: to that sort of ship generally are like, holy smokes man, 1529 01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:21,200 Speaker 1: it would have been great to see what Lewis and 1530 01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:25,559 Speaker 1: Clark saw. So pay attention to that little part of 1531 01:25:25,640 --> 01:25:27,519 Speaker 1: your brain because that a little part of your brain 1532 01:25:27,640 --> 01:25:30,719 Speaker 1: is telling you something important. Do you want to strive 1533 01:25:30,760 --> 01:25:33,240 Speaker 1: for a future that works looks more like that or 1534 01:25:33,320 --> 01:25:37,000 Speaker 1: less like that? Yeah, the catches don't don't hang up 1535 01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:41,000 Speaker 1: on it ever looking like that again, But think about 1536 01:25:41,080 --> 01:25:42,960 Speaker 1: what it did look like and what you could do 1537 01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:45,160 Speaker 1: to make it look as close to that as possible 1538 01:25:45,720 --> 01:25:47,679 Speaker 1: into the future, because it ain't gonna be the same. 1539 01:25:48,640 --> 01:25:57,160 Speaker 1: You have this conversation about antelope. If we listing like 1540 01:25:57,240 --> 01:25:59,840 Speaker 1: mule deer listing, are they going to give es a 1541 01:26:00,000 --> 01:26:03,000 Speaker 1: listening to the mule deer because we weren't paying attention 1542 01:26:03,080 --> 01:26:05,280 Speaker 1: to when for people first started bringing up to us 1543 01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:08,200 Speaker 1: thirty years ago that the mulder is gonna need some 1544 01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:11,160 Speaker 1: little teeny bit of help. Well, I've told you this, 1545 01:26:11,240 --> 01:26:12,880 Speaker 1: I told I think we talked about this in the 1546 01:26:12,960 --> 01:26:17,439 Speaker 1: last cast on on Stage Grouse. This wasn't a shock. 1547 01:26:18,200 --> 01:26:21,320 Speaker 1: This didn't manifest in two thousand five or ten, and 1548 01:26:21,520 --> 01:26:24,000 Speaker 1: wasn't court or I mean, it was court ordered, but 1549 01:26:24,040 --> 01:26:25,960 Speaker 1: that's not what the driver was. The driver was we 1550 01:26:26,080 --> 01:26:28,160 Speaker 1: drag our damn feet for a couple of three decades 1551 01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:30,720 Speaker 1: when we were warned, same thing was spotted els, the 1552 01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:35,879 Speaker 1: industry was warned, but there was no hammer immediately hovering 1553 01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:38,360 Speaker 1: right over the head. And that's the problem. We've been 1554 01:26:38,439 --> 01:26:42,240 Speaker 1: reactive throughout the history of wildlife management, and there's just 1555 01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:44,680 Speaker 1: so many examples of that, and we're damn lucky we 1556 01:26:44,720 --> 01:26:47,000 Speaker 1: got what we got. Back to the whole notion of 1557 01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:50,240 Speaker 1: what other countries have or don't have. So we have 1558 01:26:50,320 --> 01:26:52,760 Speaker 1: a lot of incentive in this country to have conservation 1559 01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:55,640 Speaker 1: and wildlife. Well we got to get out of and 1560 01:26:55,720 --> 01:26:58,519 Speaker 1: we've been having these conversations a lot on the ESA. 1561 01:26:58,640 --> 01:27:02,280 Speaker 1: I've been working with Governor meads Uh Endangered Species Act 1562 01:27:02,320 --> 01:27:06,040 Speaker 1: Initiative from the day it started, and now we're into 1563 01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:08,960 Speaker 1: a little bit more conversation about how do we avoid 1564 01:27:09,040 --> 01:27:11,360 Speaker 1: having to use the endangered species in the first place. 1565 01:27:11,439 --> 01:27:13,360 Speaker 1: Was was one of my fundamental tenants when I gave 1566 01:27:13,439 --> 01:27:15,760 Speaker 1: testimony in the first conference. We think we figured out 1567 01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:19,160 Speaker 1: how to avoid using it, which was on like bringing 1568 01:27:19,200 --> 01:27:22,040 Speaker 1: a bunch of people together to figure out how everybody's 1569 01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:23,439 Speaker 1: going to give a little bit to make the things 1570 01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:26,320 Speaker 1: and being more proactive and putting money on the front. 1571 01:27:26,439 --> 01:27:28,680 Speaker 1: It's like going into the mechanic after you drove the 1572 01:27:29,360 --> 01:27:34,000 Speaker 1: vehicle for three more thousand miles with low oil change. 1573 01:27:34,040 --> 01:27:37,479 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, it's like, oh, you blew your engine, which 1574 01:27:37,760 --> 01:27:40,360 Speaker 1: just probably could have done that for forty bucks just 1575 01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:42,880 Speaker 1: early when it was just come down to an oil chain. Exactly. 1576 01:27:43,400 --> 01:27:47,000 Speaker 1: You know, just to return to a thought man, and 1577 01:27:47,040 --> 01:27:48,800 Speaker 1: this is kind of me just operating my own mind. 1578 01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:53,160 Speaker 1: But like Eldo Leopold in Sand County, Alman, Eldo Leopold 1579 01:27:53,240 --> 01:27:57,040 Speaker 1: talks about, Okay, I'm gonna bring this up and now 1580 01:27:57,040 --> 01:27:59,360 Speaker 1: I got now content trap. I gotta dig a little 1581 01:27:59,360 --> 01:28:02,679 Speaker 1: bit deeper. Aldo le post talking about technology. He's talking 1582 01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:06,720 Speaker 1: especially about hunting technology, and he was saying that like that, 1583 01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:10,320 Speaker 1: you can't improve the well. You can't improve the pump 1584 01:28:11,840 --> 01:28:15,080 Speaker 1: without improving the well. Yeah, he's not talking about oil rings, 1585 01:28:15,120 --> 01:28:18,920 Speaker 1: talking about water, but meaning if you're gonna make it 1586 01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:22,360 Speaker 1: easier and easier and easier to extract more and more 1587 01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:25,760 Speaker 1: and more water, you're gonna have to figure out a 1588 01:28:25,760 --> 01:28:28,280 Speaker 1: way to make the well better, two deeper and better, 1589 01:28:29,280 --> 01:28:32,800 Speaker 1: because you will suck that some bit dry if you're 1590 01:28:32,800 --> 01:28:36,200 Speaker 1: not thinking about both. And when I think about that's 1591 01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:38,839 Speaker 1: like kinds of winds up being that that partisan battle 1592 01:28:38,880 --> 01:28:43,160 Speaker 1: I was talking about earlier. I feel that like that 1593 01:28:43,479 --> 01:28:47,639 Speaker 1: from the right, we're like the right side of me, Okay, 1594 01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:50,880 Speaker 1: the right leaning, right wing leaning side of me is 1595 01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:56,840 Speaker 1: usually very interested in like improving the pump, yeah, right, 1596 01:28:57,040 --> 01:29:02,599 Speaker 1: improving access democratically allocated public access to wildlife, like I 1597 01:29:02,640 --> 01:29:07,120 Speaker 1: like that to resources for us to use renewable resources, 1598 01:29:07,560 --> 01:29:11,400 Speaker 1: wild resources. The left leaning side of me. It's like, 1599 01:29:11,479 --> 01:29:16,320 Speaker 1: and let's make the well deep and wide. Ye, well 1600 01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:20,720 Speaker 1: and and too Yanni's point on the legacy. One of 1601 01:29:20,760 --> 01:29:26,040 Speaker 1: my favorite quotes that Roosevelt had was about conservation and 1602 01:29:26,479 --> 01:29:31,440 Speaker 1: stating that it means preservation and development. And he recognized 1603 01:29:31,479 --> 01:29:35,080 Speaker 1: the rights. Maybe he didn't say rights, but he recognized 1604 01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:39,400 Speaker 1: the needs to use these resources, but he didn't appreciate 1605 01:29:39,520 --> 01:29:42,440 Speaker 1: or recognize the rights to steal those from future generations. 1606 01:29:43,000 --> 01:29:49,280 Speaker 1: Paraphrasing a lot there. But conservation is about development and preservation. 1607 01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:53,200 Speaker 1: We've talked with the thousand times before. But when I'm 1608 01:29:53,200 --> 01:29:58,880 Speaker 1: gonna tell the story again, Uh, Theodore Roosevelt right was 1609 01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:04,320 Speaker 1: very interested in in preserving wildlife and saving wildlife and so. 1610 01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:08,240 Speaker 1: And there had been a argument where someone said, so 1611 01:30:08,439 --> 01:30:12,439 Speaker 1: if the wildlife if is as you're saying, that wildlife 1612 01:30:12,439 --> 01:30:18,120 Speaker 1: belongs to the American people, we're Americans. Let us in 1613 01:30:18,160 --> 01:30:20,080 Speaker 1: there and let us go get it all since it's 1614 01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:24,800 Speaker 1: ours anyways, And he says, well, yes, it belongs to you, 1615 01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:29,919 Speaker 1: but it also belongs to those in the womb of time. 1616 01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:35,679 Speaker 1: It's not all yours right now, some of yours right now, 1617 01:30:36,280 --> 01:30:40,439 Speaker 1: some is for those who will follow. Man, do we 1618 01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:44,679 Speaker 1: need Leopold and Roosevelt back? Don't we? Somebody? Some big 1619 01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:51,599 Speaker 1: thinker puts it when when speaking of his family farmer 1620 01:30:51,600 --> 01:30:55,599 Speaker 1: has been in his family for generations, and when when 1621 01:30:55,760 --> 01:31:00,439 Speaker 1: thinking when thinking about decisions around his family farm, he says, 1622 01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:02,880 Speaker 1: of him and his siblings, you know, he'll be like, 1623 01:31:02,920 --> 01:31:06,240 Speaker 1: it's not ours, it's our turn. It's our turn. YEA. 1624 01:31:06,479 --> 01:31:08,280 Speaker 1: A great way to think about it. You know, I 1625 01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:09,760 Speaker 1: don't know if Doug made that up or not, but 1626 01:31:09,800 --> 01:31:12,360 Speaker 1: he likes it and I like it. It doesn't matter. 1627 01:31:12,400 --> 01:31:15,320 Speaker 1: It's profound. You an you got any final thoughts? Then 1628 01:31:17,560 --> 01:31:19,439 Speaker 1: I just hope I kill an elk next week. I 1629 01:31:19,520 --> 01:31:22,120 Speaker 1: need to fill my freezer and take from today and 1630 01:31:22,120 --> 01:31:24,160 Speaker 1: and uh leave a little for tomorrow, leave a little 1631 01:31:24,160 --> 01:31:29,240 Speaker 1: for tomorrow. It's been great talking again. It's my fourth time. 1632 01:31:29,280 --> 01:31:31,559 Speaker 1: You guys need to come up with a five Timers 1633 01:31:31,640 --> 01:31:35,240 Speaker 1: jacket or something. If we ever do this your past 1634 01:31:35,680 --> 01:31:40,200 Speaker 1: like Saturday Night five Timers. What we'll do is in 1635 01:31:40,240 --> 01:31:43,599 Speaker 1: a year, we're gonna come talk to you anywhere. We're 1636 01:31:43,640 --> 01:31:46,200 Speaker 1: at fifty two episodes from now, We're gonna come to 1637 01:31:46,200 --> 01:31:48,880 Speaker 1: talk to you about stage grouse again, we'll see where 1638 01:31:48,880 --> 01:31:51,000 Speaker 1: we're at. I hope we're in a good place. I'm 1639 01:31:51,040 --> 01:31:54,479 Speaker 1: still optimistic, but cautious optimism. I hope that next year 1640 01:31:54,560 --> 01:31:58,160 Speaker 1: we're talking about they'll keep this bird's sage growls will 1641 01:31:58,160 --> 01:32:01,040 Speaker 1: be banging into the windows. There's so many out there 1642 01:32:01,080 --> 01:32:03,240 Speaker 1: that just like apparently flying around and coming in the 1643 01:32:03,240 --> 01:32:07,360 Speaker 1: house and throwing them out the door. Maybe maybe, I 1644 01:32:07,400 --> 01:32:12,520 Speaker 1: mean I think that, uh, you know, as this defines 1645 01:32:12,720 --> 01:32:15,800 Speaker 1: the conservation model for the future, we need to learn 1646 01:32:15,880 --> 01:32:18,280 Speaker 1: from it and grow and build and and look to 1647 01:32:18,360 --> 01:32:22,000 Speaker 1: the next one. And you don't make the same mistakes twice. 1648 01:32:22,240 --> 01:32:25,280 Speaker 1: Isn't that the definition of insanity. Keep trying the same 1649 01:32:25,320 --> 01:32:29,040 Speaker 1: thing over and hoping to get a different result doesn't work. 1650 01:32:30,120 --> 01:32:33,000 Speaker 1: I've learned from the mistakes in the past. Thanks again, 1651 01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:35,320 Speaker 1: in fifty two episodes from now, we will talking to you. 1652 01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:40,599 Speaker 1: I appreciate you guys, keep doing what you're doing. Thanks that. Okay, 1653 01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:44,080 Speaker 1: a couple of things though, before you go, oh, yeah, 1654 01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:48,280 Speaker 1: we appreciate all the reviews and the ratings. You guys 1655 01:32:48,320 --> 01:32:50,960 Speaker 1: are killing it on that. But I know, because I 1656 01:32:51,120 --> 01:32:54,480 Speaker 1: see how many there are, that there are still thousands 1657 01:32:54,520 --> 01:32:56,360 Speaker 1: of you out there that have not written a view 1658 01:32:56,400 --> 01:32:59,880 Speaker 1: and have not given us a rating, And Steve prefer 1659 01:33:00,240 --> 01:33:02,759 Speaker 1: ed just raise his hands. You give a rating it, Steve, 1660 01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:05,960 Speaker 1: he prefersday if you just do the five star one. 1661 01:33:06,080 --> 01:33:08,120 Speaker 1: If you're not gonna do the five star one, don't bother. 1662 01:33:08,240 --> 01:33:10,360 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, don't give it like a low rating. I 1663 01:33:10,360 --> 01:33:12,040 Speaker 1: don't care what kind of rating. No, no, don't just 1664 01:33:12,080 --> 01:33:14,120 Speaker 1: give it. Just go I always say, just to make 1665 01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:15,960 Speaker 1: it easy, pole, go to the right most star and 1666 01:33:16,000 --> 01:33:18,599 Speaker 1: click it. You've never given a rating it. I've never 1667 01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:20,680 Speaker 1: seen the stars on what I'm listening. By the way 1668 01:33:20,720 --> 01:33:25,919 Speaker 1: I'm listening to it. Here's the thing people don't realize. 1669 01:33:25,920 --> 01:33:31,639 Speaker 1: Why people don't realize how helpful it is to us 1670 01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:39,680 Speaker 1: to go and give the damn five star rating ring 1671 01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:41,920 Speaker 1: whatever you want. No one's gonna care. But I would 1672 01:33:41,960 --> 01:33:43,320 Speaker 1: think that you'd be on it, being like man been 1673 01:33:43,360 --> 01:33:47,559 Speaker 1: on the show four times, love it. Give these guys 1674 01:33:47,600 --> 01:33:50,880 Speaker 1: six stars, give him sick. But you guys know everything 1675 01:33:50,920 --> 01:33:54,800 Speaker 1: you do is six star, ten star. Go and give ratings. 1676 01:33:54,920 --> 01:33:57,200 Speaker 1: We'll go find it. But I'm not on iTunes. That's 1677 01:33:57,200 --> 01:33:59,760 Speaker 1: maybe what we give it. That doesn't matter. Give it 1678 01:33:59,800 --> 01:34:05,400 Speaker 1: a geting, however you listen Stitcher iTunes. I mean there's 1679 01:34:05,439 --> 01:34:08,599 Speaker 1: like the vast like those two cover the vast majority 1680 01:34:08,600 --> 01:34:10,120 Speaker 1: of people. You can go to the to the meat 1681 01:34:10,120 --> 01:34:12,760 Speaker 1: eater dot com and listen right there. However you're doing it, 1682 01:34:12,840 --> 01:34:18,400 Speaker 1: go give it mega five star rating and then you know, 1683 01:34:18,560 --> 01:34:20,880 Speaker 1: write your thoughts on want to read your thoughts? Just 1684 01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:26,200 Speaker 1: put down yeah the stars? What be on the lookout 1685 01:34:26,280 --> 01:34:30,639 Speaker 1: for the meat eater dot com Big Black Friday sale, 1686 01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:34,519 Speaker 1: it's coming at you. You get a Meatator podcast T shirt. 1687 01:34:34,600 --> 01:34:37,200 Speaker 1: That's the Friday after Thanksgiving. If you're not hip to 1688 01:34:37,240 --> 01:34:41,479 Speaker 1: Black Friday, and that means that, um, it's today that 1689 01:34:41,479 --> 01:34:45,240 Speaker 1: people like to shop. That's right, I believe after Black Friday, 1690 01:34:45,240 --> 01:34:48,040 Speaker 1: now there's a Cyber Monday and that's when you buy 1691 01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:53,440 Speaker 1: ship online. So do all that. What else? Ni um, 1692 01:34:53,479 --> 01:34:57,160 Speaker 1: if you're looking for a pocket knife, you need to 1693 01:34:57,160 --> 01:34:59,879 Speaker 1: go to benchmate and check out their pocket knife, especially 1694 01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:02,439 Speaker 1: check out their new bug out. I just got a 1695 01:35:02,479 --> 01:35:08,479 Speaker 1: bug out. It's a sweet little knife. It's light, it's simple. 1696 01:35:08,920 --> 01:35:11,040 Speaker 1: I like it. The only reason I got one it's 1697 01:35:11,040 --> 01:35:13,479 Speaker 1: come to be a dumbass. And I walked into the 1698 01:35:13,560 --> 01:35:18,800 Speaker 1: airport with my with my G ten on my on 1699 01:35:18,880 --> 01:35:20,960 Speaker 1: my clip on my belt. So I to leave it, 1700 01:35:21,240 --> 01:35:22,640 Speaker 1: so you gotta new you got the new bug out, 1701 01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:25,519 Speaker 1: like a super lightweight little knife, like super let's say, 1702 01:35:25,520 --> 01:35:28,480 Speaker 1: having like a paper clip on your pocket. Exactly exactly 1703 01:35:28,680 --> 01:35:30,600 Speaker 1: did you hear something about this? Said the in the 1704 01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:33,400 Speaker 1: Ketchkan airport, it's like the thing that brings me the 1705 01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:36,560 Speaker 1: most happiness in all the world outside of my own children. 1706 01:35:36,240 --> 01:35:39,720 Speaker 1: And is it? In the Catchcan airport there's a display 1707 01:35:39,920 --> 01:35:45,320 Speaker 1: and there's a display of of stuff they've confiscated from people. 1708 01:35:46,439 --> 01:35:49,600 Speaker 1: There's in this display is a is a full on 1709 01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:54,720 Speaker 1: brass knuckles dagger kid. Yeah, man, guys like traveling with 1710 01:35:54,760 --> 01:35:57,960 Speaker 1: a brass knuckles dagger. It's the greatest played one of 1711 01:35:57,960 --> 01:36:00,920 Speaker 1: those cases. But I've never it's just the greatest. Like, 1712 01:36:00,960 --> 01:36:02,920 Speaker 1: what do you mean I can't have uh, maybe I 1713 01:36:02,960 --> 01:36:05,240 Speaker 1: can't bring this on Yeah, And it's got a really 1714 01:36:05,360 --> 01:36:08,639 Speaker 1: nice fancy bench made knife in there. Oh yeah, there's 1715 01:36:08,640 --> 01:36:10,680 Speaker 1: some there's some like quality blades in there too. But 1716 01:36:10,720 --> 01:36:14,040 Speaker 1: there's some crazy stuff that people try to bring on planes. Well, 1717 01:36:14,120 --> 01:36:16,160 Speaker 1: ask Ronnie Beam about that. Sometimes I don't want to 1718 01:36:16,160 --> 01:36:18,559 Speaker 1: go into details, but you might want to ask him, 1719 01:36:18,640 --> 01:36:22,479 Speaker 1: like about t s A rules, how to get letters 1720 01:36:22,479 --> 01:36:25,960 Speaker 1: from the T s A what else? That's all I 1721 01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:30,600 Speaker 1: got five stars. Hey check this out. Last time we 1722 01:36:30,640 --> 01:36:32,599 Speaker 1: asked for stars, a bunch of people came and gave stars. 1723 01:36:32,600 --> 01:36:34,600 Speaker 1: And it's good for us. So it's really helpful. I 1724 01:36:34,600 --> 01:36:36,920 Speaker 1: don't want to I'm not explain all why, but it's 1725 01:36:36,960 --> 01:36:40,120 Speaker 1: good to give them their stars. Also, as long as 1726 01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:45,280 Speaker 1: we're on the subject, you helping me us is if 1727 01:36:45,320 --> 01:36:47,479 Speaker 1: you go on all the time and you're like now 1728 01:36:47,479 --> 01:36:48,760 Speaker 1: and then you're like, oh, I'm gonna go listen to 1729 01:36:48,840 --> 01:36:55,080 Speaker 1: the Meat Eater podcast. Uh, subscribe, right, that's hugely helpful. 1730 01:36:55,120 --> 01:36:58,160 Speaker 1: If you subscribe and it just comes to you automatically, 1731 01:36:58,360 --> 01:37:03,919 Speaker 1: that's good for you because it eases you into good listening, 1732 01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:08,080 Speaker 1: and it's good for us because it's just it's like, 1733 01:37:08,200 --> 01:37:11,920 Speaker 1: it's like a demonstration of of of reach. So subscribe 1734 01:37:13,160 --> 01:37:22,599 Speaker 1: five stars Black Friday, right with the Monday, the Monday 1735 01:37:23,840 --> 01:37:27,320 Speaker 1: Cyber Monday. And it also thought your support. Uh. There's 1736 01:37:27,320 --> 01:37:32,120 Speaker 1: so many great conservation groups out there that generally you'll 1737 01:37:32,160 --> 01:37:37,840 Speaker 1: find speak with a pretty unified voice. So if if 1738 01:37:37,880 --> 01:37:41,439 Speaker 1: you're a hunter or a fisherman and you're and you're 1739 01:37:41,479 --> 01:37:46,880 Speaker 1: hearing about complicated things and you're reluctant or leary about 1740 01:37:47,760 --> 01:37:51,880 Speaker 1: wading into something and advocating a certain viewpoint without knowing 1741 01:37:51,920 --> 01:37:55,479 Speaker 1: all the sides. It is a smart idea to just 1742 01:37:55,560 --> 01:38:01,960 Speaker 1: kind of go and do a survey about where leading 1743 01:38:03,200 --> 01:38:06,760 Speaker 1: national conservation groups, like where are they making stands on 1744 01:38:06,840 --> 01:38:09,400 Speaker 1: certain issues? And I think that you'll find that on 1745 01:38:09,439 --> 01:38:11,360 Speaker 1: a lot of these issues, you'll find like a pretty 1746 01:38:11,360 --> 01:38:18,040 Speaker 1: good cohesion around reasonable policies and policy solutions. Uh. I 1747 01:38:18,160 --> 01:38:21,800 Speaker 1: like the work of the trc P, just as I 1748 01:38:21,880 --> 01:38:24,360 Speaker 1: like the work of many conservation groups, some of which 1749 01:38:24,400 --> 01:38:28,000 Speaker 1: I've named here today, but um check them out, check 1750 01:38:28,040 --> 01:38:31,800 Speaker 1: out others too, and go sort of gather up like 1751 01:38:31,880 --> 01:38:34,400 Speaker 1: how people in the conservation space and the hunting and 1752 01:38:34,439 --> 01:38:38,280 Speaker 1: fishing space, how are they looking at wildlife issues, resource 1753 01:38:38,320 --> 01:38:43,519 Speaker 1: management issues? And begin to educate yourself that way and you, 1754 01:38:43,760 --> 01:38:46,200 Speaker 1: hopefully we will find groups that kind of resonate with 1755 01:38:46,240 --> 01:38:49,040 Speaker 1: you and you can throw your support behind them. But 1756 01:38:49,160 --> 01:38:50,920 Speaker 1: start out but just kind of like take a look 1757 01:38:50,960 --> 01:38:53,960 Speaker 1: at sort of the national picture of how these conversations 1758 01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:56,920 Speaker 1: are going and and start to learn about it. And 1759 01:38:56,920 --> 01:38:59,640 Speaker 1: then you'll want to I think hopefully you want to 1760 01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:02,880 Speaker 1: start exercising, uh, you know, flexing some of your personal 1761 01:39:02,960 --> 01:39:06,880 Speaker 1: muscle by by getting behind these groups and making good 1762 01:39:06,920 --> 01:39:10,200 Speaker 1: hunting and fishing for not just you, but your kids 1763 01:39:10,240 --> 01:39:12,880 Speaker 1: and their kids. Right. That's it for me, and I 1764 01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:15,799 Speaker 1: can tell you it makes a difference everything Steve said, 1765 01:39:16,200 --> 01:39:19,400 Speaker 1: having worked in this arena now it works and it 1766 01:39:19,479 --> 01:39:23,840 Speaker 1: does make a difference. Stars, the five stars, the six 1767 01:39:23,880 --> 01:39:27,680 Speaker 1: stars works even better. The five stars works, but conservation 1768 01:39:27,720 --> 01:39:30,080 Speaker 1: advocacy works to it really does, and we make sure 1769 01:39:30,120 --> 01:39:35,360 Speaker 1: it works by amplifying your boys. So appreciate you saying that. Alright, 1770 01:39:35,479 --> 01:39:36,080 Speaker 1: stay tuned