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Speaker 1: Hello. Hello. And welcome. To My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hartstark.

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Speaker 1: That's Karen Kilgareth. We're at home. We are at home.

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Speaker 1: I'm legit in my, I don't know if I call

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Speaker 1: them pajamas. Are they pajamas when they're sweatpants?

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Speaker 2: Are they pajamas when they're all day long? Exactly.

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Speaker 1: I mean. Like Vince got them in my pajamas and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm kind of in my indoor clothes, which isn't,

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Speaker 1: I don't sleep.

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Speaker 2: Could you go to the bank in what Oh, that's

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Speaker 2: a good question. Is that the dividing line? But I'd

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Speaker 2: look a little... Someone wouldn't be wrong to think that

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Speaker 2: I was on my way to rehab.

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Speaker 1: Through the bank. Getting some money out before I go

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Speaker 1: to rehab.

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Speaker 2: It's like a speakeasy in the back of the bank,

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Speaker 2: but it's a rehab.

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Speaker 1: What's the code word to get in?

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Speaker 2: You know what that makes me think of is the

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Speaker 2: time I was sitting in front of a grocery store

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Speaker 2: at night.

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Speaker 1: This was so long ago, but a girl walked up.

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Speaker 2: To one of those red box machines and she had

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Speaker 2: the most insane... like fleece pajama bottoms with like, I

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Speaker 2: think they were like probably power puff girls or something.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And this was pre COVID. And I remember being like, Ooh,

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Speaker 2: what do you do?

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Speaker 1: And then like, someone got broke up with her recently.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. A lot of judgment, a lot of like outfits, outfits.

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Speaker 2: And now it's like, absolutely wear that to work. Totally.

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Speaker 1: Do your thing. Like, what do you wear when you

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Speaker 1: don't leave the house that often? God, I need to

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Speaker 1: leave the house more often.

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Speaker 2: I think it's why, and maybe you want to join me,

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Speaker 2: that's why I do Scandi. My style is Scandi style.

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Speaker 1: Oh, like Scandinavian? What is that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Scandinavian. So it's like big sweaters, big pants, clogs.

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Speaker 1: That's like your style so that when you're at home,

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Speaker 1: it's like, that's just what she wears. I thought you

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Speaker 1: were going to go like scandalous and be like, I

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Speaker 1: wear lingerie around my house.

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Speaker 2: I tip top it around the house nonstop.

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Speaker 1: All right. You're right. And then because also I need

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Speaker 1: an escape because my clothes are like, you know, when

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Speaker 1: they're cute, they're like made up and everything is cinched

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Speaker 1: and this and that and has accessories. Tight, yeah. So

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Speaker 1: like I need a break from that when I'm not

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Speaker 1: wearing them. I shouldn't need a break from my everyday

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Speaker 1: clothes anymore.

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Speaker 2: All right. Listen, I think you're growing and changing in

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Speaker 2: the way that you're like, do I need to be

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Speaker 2: outfit forward at all times?

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Speaker 1: Right. No. You don't owe anybody an outfit.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You'll gift them an outfit?

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Speaker 1: I owe nine-year-old Georgia who got hand-me-downs and wore the

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Speaker 1: same and got teased for wearing the same thing every week,

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Speaker 1: you know. I owe her a new top for the

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Speaker 1: Netflix podcast that we do every week. Yes, I hear you.

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: You're like, I can now prove that I can get

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Speaker 2: new shirts.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. Watch, you've never seen this one before and you'll

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Speaker 1: never fucking see it again. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Check this one out, Maureen from Orange County or whoever

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Speaker 2: we're talking to. Motherfucker. And I think I'm doing the

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Speaker 2: equal opposite of the full flop of just wear a

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Speaker 2: black shirt all the time. They can't say shit to

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Speaker 2: you if you just wear the same thing.

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Speaker 1: All the time. Well, starting tomorrow. It's on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. We're going to be different later.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Watch out, world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. You've been warned.

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Speaker 1: Do you have anything? What do you got?

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Speaker 2: We went on a lovely vacation that I was very

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Speaker 2: grateful to have. And when I came back from that vacation,

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Speaker 2: I literally slept for about six days in a row.

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Speaker 2: It started to get kind of like, do I have

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Speaker 2: one of those weird sleeping sicknesses or something? Because I

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Speaker 2: could not stop sleeping.

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Speaker 1: It was wild. It's so joyful though, sleeping. Yeah, it is.

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Speaker 2: You know? Especially when you have a hard time doing it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. There's something so special about, oh, I fell asleep.

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Speaker 1: It's like... Yay, I won. It's so good for you.

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Speaker 1: It's so good for you. And it never happens when

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Speaker 1: it's supposed to.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't. And I'm also not used to daytime napping.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I think in our house... kind of subtextually,

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Speaker 2: it was banned?

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Like you were laying down during the day?

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Speaker 1: It's totally a childhood thing of was it okay or

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Speaker 1: was it not okay? Like it was totally fine in

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Speaker 1: my house and celebrated. It's so bad. So if it wasn't...

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Speaker 1: That's healthy. Yeah, no, it was bad.

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Speaker 2: You had people would just come by and hit your

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Speaker 2: foot and just be like, get a job. But point being,

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Speaker 2: coming home, I would be falling asleep at four o'clock

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Speaker 2: in the afternoon and sleeping hard. And then I would

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Speaker 2: wake up at six and because it was like dusk,

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Speaker 2: I would think it was dawn and that I'd slept

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Speaker 2: through the day. And I would get, I did this

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Speaker 2: two times. I got up and made coffee. Yeah. two

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Speaker 2: times at like 6 p.m.

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Speaker 1: I was thinking if you as a little kid and

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Speaker 1: I'm like you got up and make coffee cool no

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Speaker 1: no this just happened this is how I this is

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Speaker 1: how I celebrated my vacation oh my god you woke

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Speaker 1: up and we're like well it's the morning time I.

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Speaker 2: Blew through that whole day I guess I need to

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Speaker 2: get jacked up on caffeine and then it'd be like

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Speaker 2: oh shit I should have looked at my phone.

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Speaker 1: Daisy and Frank are like what the fuck are you

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Speaker 1: doing what are we doing Blossom, by the way. Blossom.

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Speaker 2: Shit. Shit. Oh, my God. Who's Daisy?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Whose dog is Daisy? Blossom, Daisy. They're similar. True, true.

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Speaker 2: All right.

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Speaker 1: Should we get into it? Let's do it. We have

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Speaker 1: a podcast network called Exactly Right Media. Here's some highlights.

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Speaker 2: That's right. All kinds of podcasts on there. And this week,

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Speaker 2: over on Buried Bones, Kate Winkler-Dawson and Paul Holes kick

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Speaker 2: off a two-part investigation into the Hillside Stranglers, as we

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Speaker 2: all know. the serial killing duo who terrorized Los Angeles

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Speaker 2: in the late 1970s. I cannot wait to hear them

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Speaker 2: break down and discuss. I mean, I genuinely can't wait.

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Speaker 2: This is like, this is what they call it, appointment TV,

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Speaker 2: but this is like appointment podcasting for me.

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Speaker 1: Definitely. And then over on Brief Recess, Michael and Melissa

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Speaker 1: talk about the midterm elections and they discuss the surge

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Speaker 1: in partnerships between ICE and local police. Dark.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. God is watching you. I've never been more religious.

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Speaker 2: Over on Ghosted, Roz is joined by the iconic Stephanie Beatriz.

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Speaker 2: She's a friend of MFM. She's from Brooklyn Nine-Nine and

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Speaker 2: the amazing movie Encanto. If you haven't seen Encanto, do

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Speaker 2: yourself a favor. It's so beautiful. And she's the star.

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Speaker 2: She can sing like hell.

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 2: It's a very haunted dorm room, and a cursed rendezvous.

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Speaker 1: Plus, in case you missed it, Karen was a guest

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Speaker 1: on The Knife last month. She sat down with Hannah

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Speaker 1: and Patia to reflect on the tragedy she witnessed at

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Speaker 1: South by Southwest in 2014 and what it means to

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Speaker 1: carry the memory of something so devastating.

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Speaker 2: You know what it means? It means that you somehow,

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Speaker 2: in the strangest way in the world, make a friend

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Speaker 2: at a Halloween party.

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Speaker 1: Turn it into a podcast.

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Speaker 2: That's our, what is that called? A prequel or a like?

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That's the season before the main season.

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Speaker 1: Right. Because that's the thing that got us to actually

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Speaker 1: meet each other. Totally.

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Speaker 2: Also, here's some really exciting news over in the merch corner.

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Speaker 2: Heads up, goths and rebellious librarians. We've got a brand

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Speaker 2: new Murderino design. It's the classic cursive. text, but it's

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Speaker 2: black on black fabric.

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Speaker 1: Hell yeah. That's so fucking punk rock. I love it

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Speaker 1: so much. It's so good. It's available as a hat.

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Speaker 1: Plus our fan favorite, Panther Design by Daphne Sabane is

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Speaker 1: available once again as a zip-up hoodie and a crew neck.

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Speaker 2: Also for our MFM animated stands, we have... We have

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Speaker 2: new ornaments.

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Speaker 1: For the holidays.

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Speaker 2: Choose from a peachy ornament or from the MFM animated lineup. Plus,

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Speaker 2: we've got new Mothman and Skeleton Key purse charms, all

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Speaker 2: designed by our own Nick Terry.

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Speaker 1: Hell yeah. I love that we're just leaning on that

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Speaker 1: MFM animated because it's just so beautiful. And now we

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Speaker 1: can add it to Christmas? Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Come on. The lineup art is truly some of my favorite.

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Speaker 1: So head to exactlyrightstore.com to shop the whole collection. Okay, Karen,

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Speaker 1: you're first. I'm going to put my pajama ass into

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Speaker 1: a comfy position.

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Speaker 2: It would be great if you would change into formal

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Speaker 2: clothes for this, since you're already in pajamas.

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Speaker 1: Let me go put on my gown and jewels. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, my story today starts the morning of Friday, April 2nd, 1982,

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Speaker 2: in the D.C. suburb of Montclair, Virginia. That's about 30

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Speaker 2: miles southwest of Washington, D.C., It's around 10 o'clock in

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Speaker 2: the morning and a woman walking her dog through a

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Speaker 2: local subdivision takes a short trail into the woods behind

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Speaker 2: nearby elementary school. And on that path, she comes upon

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Speaker 2: what we know to be the worst case scenario. She

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Speaker 2: finds the dead body of a woman. She's somewhere between

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Speaker 2: 30 and 40 years old. She's five foot two with

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Speaker 2: reddish brown hair. She's nude and her hands are bound

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Speaker 2: behind her back. The woman who's walking her dog immediately

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Speaker 2: calls the police. But this homicide investigation will be slow

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Speaker 2: and frustrating. The police wait for the call from a

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Speaker 2: loved one reporting her missing, but they don't get that call.

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Speaker 2: And when every possible lead results in a dead end,

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Speaker 2: investigators are forced to think outside the box, trying new

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Speaker 2: things like forensic hypnosis to.

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Speaker 1: Get a break.

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Speaker 2: But in the end, it will be the TV show

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Speaker 2: Unsolved Mysteries that breaks this case, finally bringing justice where

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Speaker 2: it's needed.

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Speaker 1: This is the story of the murder of Hilda Roche. Wow.

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Speaker 2: So the main sources used are, of course, the 1991

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Speaker 2: episode of Unsolved Mysteries, which now sounds like I'm saying 1941.

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Speaker 1: Wow, yeah. It's so crazy.

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Speaker 2: And then articles from the Potomac News and the Washington

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Speaker 2: Post archives. And the rest of the sources are in

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Speaker 2: our show notes. So it's April 2nd, 1982. And a

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Speaker 2: Jane Doe body is found in the woods in Montclair.

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Speaker 2: In those woods behind a grammar school, crime scene investigators

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Speaker 2: get to work. They notice that the victim's hands are

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Speaker 2: tied behind her back with a pair of pantyhose. And

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Speaker 2: then they notice signs of sexual assaults. They see that

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Speaker 2: her cause of death is one execution-style gunshot to the head.

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Speaker 2: Investigators determine that she was killed sometime after midnight, likely

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Speaker 2: in this exact spot. What they can't figure out, though,

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Speaker 2: is who this woman is. Because, of course, she doesn't

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Speaker 2: have any identification on her. But when they run her

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Speaker 2: fingerprints through the FBI database... there's no match because it's

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Speaker 2: 1982 and she doesn't have a criminal record. Aside from

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Speaker 2: her white and blue tree-torn tennis shoes, the police really

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Speaker 2: don't have anything, any identifying things like clothing, jewelry, tattoos

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Speaker 2: that could help the public identify her. Throughout the day,

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Speaker 2: investigators keep close tabs on any missing person reports that

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Speaker 2: might be coming in, but no luck there. And Since

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Speaker 2: we all know that the first 48 hours of a

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Speaker 2: murder investigation are make or break, they send nine detectives

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Speaker 2: out to canvas the area around where the body was found.

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Speaker 2: They interview dozens of people who live near the crime scene.

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Speaker 2: And they do learn that a few residents heard a

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Speaker 2: loud noise in the overnight hours, which would be very

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Speaker 2: early Friday morning, presumably the gunshot that killed this Jane Doe.

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Speaker 2: And that when they say they heard it aligns with

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Speaker 2: the assumed time of the victim's death. They also learn

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Speaker 2: that the elementary school was hosting an adult jazzercise class

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Speaker 2: that night, the night before on Thursday. So they tracked

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Speaker 2: down every person that was in this class, but no

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Speaker 2: one's unaccounted for. And none of the people who were

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Speaker 2: in the class have useful information about who that woman,

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Speaker 2: the dead woman.

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Speaker 1: Could be.

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Speaker 2: But by the weekend, there's coverage about this Jane Doe

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Speaker 2: murder on the local news and in area newspapers. And finally,

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Speaker 2: calls start coming in. One tip is from Lake Ridge, Virginia.

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Speaker 2: It's another D.C. suburb 10 miles north of Montclair. And

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Speaker 2: the callers are worried about a neighbor of theirs, a

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Speaker 2: 43-year-old woman named Hilda Rochea. They describe her as a

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Speaker 2: friendly and outgoing woman who they're used to seeing around

247
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Speaker 2: the neighborhood. It turns out Hilda is an active member

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Speaker 2: of her neighborhood association. She also enjoys going out to dinner,

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Speaker 2: going to see live theater. She's described as a joyful person.

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Speaker 2: And she had recently separated from her husband. And for

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Speaker 2: a time, she lived with a roommate. But then just

252
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Speaker 2: a few months earlier in January of 1982... her roommate

253
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Speaker 2: died suddenly from a brain aneurysm, which was, yeah, just

254
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Speaker 2: a shocking out of the blue thing. So now Hilda

255
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Speaker 2: lives by herself in her townhome. So her neighbors report

256
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Speaker 2: they haven't seen her since Thursday, April 1st, and that

257
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Speaker 2: no one has been able to reach her. They're particularly

258
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Speaker 2: troubled because Hilda's dog was found outside and unattended. Yeah,

259
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Speaker 2: horrible feeling. When they went to check her front door,

260
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Speaker 2: they discovered that it was unlocked. So around the same

261
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Speaker 2: time that they're talking to these neighbors, Hilda's coworkers also

262
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Speaker 2: reach out to the police. Like many people that live

263
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Speaker 2: in that part of the country, Hilda's a government employee.

264
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Speaker 2: She works for military intelligence at Arlington Hall in Arlington, Virginia,

265
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Speaker 2: which is known for hosting and training cryptographers and code

266
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Speaker 2: breakers during World War II. And Hilda had been a

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Speaker 2: no-show at work for a couple of days and no

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Speaker 2: one at work could get in touch with her And

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Speaker 2: all of that was so out of character for Hilda

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Speaker 2: that they finally called the police. So on Monday, April 5th, 1982,

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Speaker 2: four days after the Jane Doe body is found, investigators

272
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Speaker 2: knock on the door of Hilda Roche's townhome. No one answers.

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Speaker 2: So they enter through that unlocked door and they start

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Speaker 2: to look around. And a detective named Donald Cahill describes

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Speaker 2: the scene as, quote, indicative of a struggle. The upstairs bedroom,

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Speaker 2: in particular, is in disarray. Women's clothes are strewn around

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Speaker 2: the room. Many of them are damaged, like they were

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Speaker 2: ripped from a body. There's a torn pair of underwear,

279
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Speaker 2: a bra with a broken clasp, a blouse that's missing

280
00:14:33,270 --> 00:14:36,970
Speaker 2: nine buttons, and all of those items do end up

281
00:14:37,030 --> 00:14:40,390
Speaker 2: belonging to Hilda. There's also a roll of tape sitting

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Speaker 2: near the bedside, and investigators believe that this was used

283
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Speaker 2: to tie someone to the bed. Hmm. Downstairs in the

284
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Speaker 2: living area, investigators find the blouse's missing buttons, and that

285
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Speaker 2: makes them think that that's where the struggle began, with

286
00:14:54,990 --> 00:14:58,450
Speaker 2: Hilda's shirt being torn off. They also find her wallet

287
00:14:58,550 --> 00:15:01,880
Speaker 2: and her work ID with her fingerprint on it, and

288
00:15:01,930 --> 00:15:06,200
Speaker 2: investigators are now able to confirm that Hilda Roche is

289
00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,800
Speaker 2: the Montclair Jane Doe. Wow. But because there's no evidence

290
00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:14,680
Speaker 2: that the home was broken into, investigators suspect that Hilda

291
00:15:14,740 --> 00:15:17,690
Speaker 2: might have been killed by someone she knew, and maybe

292
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:20,910
Speaker 2: even someone she invited inside. So they take a closer

293
00:15:20,950 --> 00:15:24,610
Speaker 2: look at her estranged husband, of course, as they always do.

294
00:15:25,410 --> 00:15:26,050
Speaker 1: But by all.

295
00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:29,470
Speaker 2: Accounts, the two seem to have broken up and moved

296
00:15:29,650 --> 00:15:32,470
Speaker 2: on with their lives. They can find no evidence that

297
00:15:32,530 --> 00:15:36,230
Speaker 2: connects her ex to this murder. And then they get

298
00:15:36,270 --> 00:15:39,790
Speaker 2: a very promising tip. Investigators discover that on the evening

299
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Speaker 2: of March 26th, 1982, which was a week before her death,

300
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Speaker 2: She went to a bar and restaurant called The Rafters

301
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:50,000
Speaker 2: in Alexandria, Virginia, which is about a half an hour

302
00:15:50,060 --> 00:15:53,370
Speaker 2: from her home. And there she met a man.

303
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,740
Speaker 1: So it's the early 80s.

304
00:15:55,970 --> 00:16:00,050
Speaker 2: And apparently Rafters is like a popular kind of slightly

305
00:16:00,230 --> 00:16:04,010
Speaker 2: upscale chain for food and drinks in Alexandria.

306
00:16:04,030 --> 00:16:04,110
Speaker 1: Yeah.

307
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,060
Speaker 2: Kind of like Applebee's.

308
00:16:06,380 --> 00:16:07,240
Speaker 1: Which one's the fancy?

309
00:16:07,260 --> 00:16:09,830
Speaker 2: Black Angus. Black Angus was what I was going to say,

310
00:16:09,870 --> 00:16:11,870
Speaker 2: but that's not even fancy anymore, is it?

311
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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. One of those.

312
00:16:14,530 --> 00:16:16,890
Speaker 2: It seemed fancy from the freeway to me.

313
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

314
00:16:18,170 --> 00:16:20,850
Speaker 2: But it's also the 80s. And so like on that

315
00:16:20,910 --> 00:16:25,320
Speaker 2: episode of Unsolved Mysteries, they do reference this as a

316
00:16:25,540 --> 00:16:29,640
Speaker 2: singles bar, the rafters. But Maren looking into it was like,

317
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,780
Speaker 2: I'm not seeing anybody else calling it that. So like it,

318
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Speaker 2: But it's that idea. It's like she basically went there,

319
00:16:36,350 --> 00:16:38,830
Speaker 2: she ordered a drink at the bar, sat down, and

320
00:16:38,930 --> 00:16:41,600
Speaker 2: she would later tell her friends that a man took

321
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Speaker 2: the seat next to her and they start chatting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But for some reason that no one will ever know,

324
00:16:48,780 --> 00:16:51,640
Speaker 2: she doesn't tell her friends the man's name. She only

325
00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:55,370
Speaker 2: tells them that he introduces himself as a government consultant

326
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Speaker 2: and they hit it off. So Hilda tells her friends

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Speaker 2: she and this man grab a table and they eat

328
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Speaker 2: dinner together. And then they walk over to the man's

329
00:17:04,690 --> 00:17:08,970
Speaker 2: place at the Oakwood Apartments, which is a huge complex

330
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Speaker 2: basically across the street from the rafters. You can see

331
00:17:11,950 --> 00:17:15,080
Speaker 2: it from the rafters. And they go over there and

332
00:17:15,100 --> 00:17:17,720
Speaker 2: they keep the night going. So by the time Hilda's

333
00:17:17,740 --> 00:17:21,820
Speaker 2: telling her friends about this, she's clearly excited. And one

334
00:17:21,859 --> 00:17:24,910
Speaker 2: of her friends, who will later appear on Unsolved Mysteries,

335
00:17:25,369 --> 00:17:28,150
Speaker 2: says that she thought this man sounded.

336
00:17:27,830 --> 00:17:28,670
Speaker 1: Too good to be true.

337
00:17:29,210 --> 00:17:32,649
Speaker 2: She says, quote, Hilda had said the guy was single,

338
00:17:32,890 --> 00:17:35,220
Speaker 2: he was attractive, he had a lot of money, and

339
00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:38,000
Speaker 2: she was impressed that he was driving this beautiful car.

340
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,100
Speaker 2: I started to tell her, don't believe everything this guy

341
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,510
Speaker 2: is telling you. The car is probably rented. Anybody can

342
00:17:44,550 --> 00:17:47,710
Speaker 2: make up a big story. You don't know anything about him.

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Speaker 1: Watch out. Wow. End quote.

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00:17:50,190 --> 00:17:55,620
Speaker 2: Yeah. But it's like such a heartbreaking story. thing, this

345
00:17:55,900 --> 00:18:00,260
Speaker 2: is the risk of vulnerability of relationships. It's like, this

346
00:18:00,340 --> 00:18:01,760
Speaker 2: is what women have to deal with.

347
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,770
Speaker 1: You have to be constantly on guard that everything they

348
00:18:04,810 --> 00:18:08,570
Speaker 1: say could be a complete lie and they could be dangerous,

349
00:18:08,750 --> 00:18:11,410
Speaker 1: like on top of it all. Right.

350
00:18:11,630 --> 00:18:15,669
Speaker 2: And this, I think only recent kind of discovery and

351
00:18:15,750 --> 00:18:19,600
Speaker 2: discussion that women are having with each other about what

352
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 2: actual danger looks like and how charming... sociopaths can be

353
00:18:24,340 --> 00:18:27,320
Speaker 2: you know how that's part of the plan it's you

354
00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:31,200
Speaker 2: know it's tough it feels like 1982 is like that

355
00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:33,780
Speaker 2: was still almost like a hangover of like the singles

356
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:39,610
Speaker 2: bar fern bar 70s you know for sure so identifying

357
00:18:39,630 --> 00:18:43,110
Speaker 2: this man becomes the focus of the murder investigation the

358
00:18:43,170 --> 00:18:45,490
Speaker 2: police talk to the people who are at the rafters

359
00:18:45,530 --> 00:18:49,109
Speaker 2: that night they get this man's physical description it's very

360
00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:52,310
Speaker 2: vague He's a white man with brown hair and brown eyes.

361
00:18:52,730 --> 00:18:54,490
Speaker 2: He's around 40 years old.

362
00:18:54,930 --> 00:18:56,449
Speaker 1: He's about five foot seven.

363
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,680
Speaker 2: It's like as general as it could be. But they

364
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 2: do use it to investigate their most compelling clue, which

365
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,260
Speaker 2: is they know this man has an apartment at the

366
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:10,609
Speaker 2: Oakwoods complex across the street. But here's the thing. This

367
00:19:10,869 --> 00:19:13,490
Speaker 2: complex has 1,400 units in it.

368
00:19:13,650 --> 00:19:14,409
Speaker 1: Holy shit.

369
00:19:14,750 --> 00:19:14,930
Speaker 2: Yeah.

370
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:16,210
Speaker 1: It's gigantic.

371
00:19:16,330 --> 00:19:18,949
Speaker 2: I mean, I can't comprehend it. It's so gigantic.

372
00:19:19,090 --> 00:19:21,229
Speaker 1: No, it makes sense with like government workers where it's

373
00:19:21,270 --> 00:19:23,590
Speaker 1: just like we need a place to temporarily put a

374
00:19:23,609 --> 00:19:25,020
Speaker 1: lot of people. Exactly.

375
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 2: That is kind of what it was. So detectives end

376
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,240
Speaker 2: up pouring over as many lease agreements, like lease agreements

377
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:34,800
Speaker 2: dating back three years.

378
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:35,300
Speaker 1: Wow.

379
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,210
Speaker 2: Hoping to find a tenant. That is a man, like

380
00:19:38,230 --> 00:19:41,780
Speaker 2: a white man, all those things in the description. But

381
00:19:41,820 --> 00:19:45,200
Speaker 2: of course, it's a huge complex and it is a

382
00:19:45,260 --> 00:19:48,930
Speaker 2: revolving door of government employees. So it's like quick, you know,

383
00:19:49,150 --> 00:19:51,880
Speaker 2: contract employees. that are in and out. So it's now

384
00:19:51,970 --> 00:19:55,440
Speaker 2: months into the investigation when police finally get the big

385
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,439
Speaker 2: break they need. They find out that Hilda lost her

386
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,300
Speaker 2: wallet at the rafters the night that she met this

387
00:20:01,340 --> 00:20:05,620
Speaker 2: mystery man. So it turns out that the man that

388
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:10,550
Speaker 2: she left with he called the Rafters and insisted that

389
00:20:11,310 --> 00:20:14,380
Speaker 2: he be called if her wallet is found. Okay. So

390
00:20:14,420 --> 00:20:18,820
Speaker 2: then he leaves his phone number with the staff. And

391
00:20:19,260 --> 00:20:21,720
Speaker 2: it sounds really creepy and it's very easy to kind

392
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,610
Speaker 2: of write a story about what that meant. Yeah. He

393
00:20:24,650 --> 00:20:28,190
Speaker 2: does live across the street and Hilda is far away

394
00:20:28,490 --> 00:20:32,090
Speaker 2: and she's excited to see him again. So It could

395
00:20:32,109 --> 00:20:34,430
Speaker 2: have made sense to be like, oh, we'll meet again

396
00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:36,449
Speaker 2: and you can bring my wallet. Yeah.

397
00:20:36,609 --> 00:20:38,510
Speaker 1: I can grab it. It's close by kind.

398
00:20:38,390 --> 00:20:38,750
Speaker 2: Of a thing.

399
00:20:38,930 --> 00:20:39,730
Speaker 1: Yeah. Okay.

400
00:20:39,950 --> 00:20:43,010
Speaker 2: So Hilda's wallet is found at the restaurant and a

401
00:20:43,070 --> 00:20:47,210
Speaker 2: manager gives the man a call. So he stops by

402
00:20:47,230 --> 00:20:49,889
Speaker 2: that same week and picks it up. So when the

403
00:20:49,950 --> 00:20:52,650
Speaker 2: detectives learn about this, they go back to the rafters.

404
00:20:53,210 --> 00:20:57,390
Speaker 2: They find that manager to get the man's contact information,

405
00:20:58,150 --> 00:21:01,119
Speaker 2: but like hoping it's filed away somewhere. Yeah. But of course-

406
00:21:01,619 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 2: She doesn't have it anymore. So basically, as an investigative

407
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,090
Speaker 2: Hail Mary, they asked the manager if she'll be willing

408
00:21:08,109 --> 00:21:11,110
Speaker 2: to be put under hypnosis in the hope that they

409
00:21:11,130 --> 00:21:15,890
Speaker 2: could get something from anything to point to this man's identity.

410
00:21:16,670 --> 00:21:20,540
Speaker 2: And she agrees. But by the time she's placed under hypnosis,

411
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,580
Speaker 2: it's been three months since she called the man about

412
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,750
Speaker 2: Hilda's wallet. So it definitely seems like a long shot

413
00:21:27,970 --> 00:21:30,609
Speaker 2: and it seems just weird and out of the box. Yeah.

414
00:21:30,790 --> 00:21:35,370
Speaker 2: But incredibly, when she's hypnotized, this manager recites a complete

415
00:21:35,470 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 2: phone number. No. Yeah.

416
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:38,360
Speaker 1: Holy shit.

417
00:21:38,660 --> 00:21:38,980
Speaker 2: I know.

418
00:21:39,180 --> 00:21:39,679
Speaker 1: It's crazy.

419
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,679
Speaker 2: Now, investigators don't immediately celebrate because the hypnotist warned them, listen,

420
00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:47,000
Speaker 2: these numbers could be off in some way. Some could

421
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,510
Speaker 2: be reversed or misremembered. Like it could be partial. Yeah.

422
00:21:51,090 --> 00:21:55,860
Speaker 2: But while this is happening, the other investigators are whittling

423
00:21:55,890 --> 00:22:00,200
Speaker 2: down those lease agreements. And Detective Cahill says on his

424
00:22:00,260 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 2: episode of Unsolved Mysteries, he says, quote, we went through

425
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:09,100
Speaker 2: probably 25,000 to 30,000 files. And out of that, we

426
00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:12,430
Speaker 2: came up with 32 possible names that fit the profile

427
00:22:12,590 --> 00:22:14,230
Speaker 2: of the man, end quote.

428
00:22:14,270 --> 00:22:16,570
Speaker 1: That's so much work for also not even knowing if

429
00:22:16,650 --> 00:22:20,230
Speaker 1: he is a suspect because it was a week before, right?

430
00:22:20,530 --> 00:22:23,510
Speaker 2: Yes. It's a part of like police work and detective

431
00:22:23,570 --> 00:22:27,730
Speaker 2: work where you understand the burnout and me when people

432
00:22:27,810 --> 00:22:29,970
Speaker 2: kind of like half-ass things or they don't want to

433
00:22:30,020 --> 00:22:32,659
Speaker 2: write up a report or a file or whatever, because

434
00:22:33,020 --> 00:22:35,399
Speaker 2: they have to do all of that and work so hard.

435
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,300
Speaker 2: And yeah, sometimes for no reason.

436
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 1: Yeah.

437
00:22:38,380 --> 00:22:41,180
Speaker 2: And it's like, why can't we get AI to do something?

438
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,730
Speaker 2: Why does AI have to be an artist all the time? Anyway,

439
00:22:44,770 --> 00:22:46,410
Speaker 2: we'll talk about AI on a different show.

440
00:22:46,570 --> 00:22:50,080
Speaker 1: I hope so. You're looking forward to that conversation.

441
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, always. So they do have these 32 possible names.

442
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 2: And on this short list, they find a phone number

443
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 2: that is an almost perfect match to the one recited

444
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,590
Speaker 2: by the hypnotized restaurant manager. And that phone number belongs

445
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:10,629
Speaker 2: to a 38-year-old man named Gregory Richard Barker. who it

446
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:13,950
Speaker 2: turns out moved out of the Oakwood apartments and left

447
00:23:14,030 --> 00:23:16,210
Speaker 2: town shortly after Hilda's murder.

448
00:23:16,230 --> 00:23:17,060
Speaker 1: Oh, shit.

449
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,060
Speaker 2: So now detectives are on it and they are looking

450
00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 2: to interview him, but they can't find him. He leaves

451
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,140
Speaker 2: behind a forwarding address for a new place in Las Vegas,

452
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,540
Speaker 2: but when they call and talk to people at that address,

453
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,680
Speaker 2: he no longer is affiliated or seems to be affiliated

454
00:23:35,740 --> 00:23:39,070
Speaker 2: with it. So police start to dig into this man's background.

455
00:23:39,730 --> 00:23:43,890
Speaker 2: There's no immediate red flags. He's a decorated Vietnam War veteran.

456
00:23:44,270 --> 00:23:48,650
Speaker 2: He completed two tours, the second one being in military intelligence,

457
00:23:49,030 --> 00:23:51,730
Speaker 2: which is something he and Hilda could have bonded over

458
00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: because that's where she worked now. Barker left the Army

459
00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 2: in 1975, seven years before this murder took place, and

460
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: he left it in good standing. But when investigators tracked

461
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:08,300
Speaker 2: down Barker's car, that fancy one that impressed Hilda so

462
00:24:08,340 --> 00:24:11,350
Speaker 2: much the night they met, They find a shoe print

463
00:24:11,570 --> 00:24:14,410
Speaker 2: in the trunk that is a perfect match for those

464
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:17,450
Speaker 2: white tree-torn sneakers that she was wearing at the time

465
00:24:17,470 --> 00:24:17,930
Speaker 2: of her death.

466
00:24:18,170 --> 00:24:18,710
Speaker 1: Oh, my God.

467
00:24:18,730 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's a direct link, and it also suggests

468
00:24:22,980 --> 00:24:25,020
Speaker 2: she may have been in the trunk alive. Right.

469
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: Totally.

470
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 2: So two and a half years after Hilda Roche's body

471
00:24:29,270 --> 00:24:33,390
Speaker 2: is found, in September of 1984, Greg Barker is arrested,

472
00:24:33,950 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 2: but he's not arrested for Hilda's murder. He's actually arrested

473
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,630
Speaker 2: for three bank robberies in Las Vegas, one in December

474
00:24:41,670 --> 00:24:44,950
Speaker 2: of 83, one in January of 84, and a third

475
00:24:44,990 --> 00:24:48,689
Speaker 2: in March of 84. But these aren't like major heists.

476
00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:54,380
Speaker 2: He only made $ 2, 100. Wow, on three bank robberies. Three

477
00:24:54,450 --> 00:24:56,379
Speaker 2: bank robberies in the 80s. Do you want to know

478
00:24:56,420 --> 00:24:57,620
Speaker 2: how much it is in today's money?

479
00:24:57,619 --> 00:25:03,930
Speaker 1: $ 2, 100 in the 80s today is... $ 10, 000? No, $ 8, 000.

480
00:25:03,609 --> 00:25:04,060
Speaker 2: $ 6, 700.

481
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 1: It's like, it's nothing.

482
00:25:09,340 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 2: And in the robberies, he didn't use a weapon. So

483
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,179
Speaker 2: one could maybe assume that he was just desperate and

484
00:25:17,220 --> 00:25:19,870
Speaker 2: was like trying to get money like truly on the run.

485
00:25:19,890 --> 00:25:19,970
Speaker 1: Yeah.

486
00:25:21,230 --> 00:25:24,670
Speaker 2: But because he didn't use a weapon, he is able

487
00:25:24,690 --> 00:25:29,070
Speaker 2: to post bond and he is released before his trial. Mm-hmm.

488
00:25:29,630 --> 00:25:34,470
Speaker 2: And also because of bad communication between different police jurisdictions,

489
00:25:35,030 --> 00:25:37,750
Speaker 2: the Las Vegas authorities have no idea Greg Barker is

490
00:25:37,790 --> 00:25:41,290
Speaker 2: wanted for murder in Virginia. By the time detectives who

491
00:25:41,330 --> 00:25:44,650
Speaker 2: are working Hilda's case find out about his arrest in Vegas,

492
00:25:45,150 --> 00:25:49,190
Speaker 2: he's gone again. So now it's April of 1991. It's

493
00:25:49,310 --> 00:25:50,330
Speaker 2: nine years.

494
00:25:50,430 --> 00:25:51,369
Speaker 1: After Hilda's murder.

495
00:25:52,130 --> 00:25:55,710
Speaker 2: And the TV show Unsolved Mysteries runs a segment on

496
00:25:55,790 --> 00:25:58,930
Speaker 2: her case. the detectives working the case think it's a

497
00:25:58,950 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 2: great way to get the word out about Greg Barker nationwide.

498
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: He's out there running around and it works.

499
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: And I think we should say that like to the

500
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: young people listening to this podcast, everyone watched that show

501
00:26:10,700 --> 00:26:14,540
Speaker 1: and like everyone watched it live. We were obsessed with

502
00:26:14,580 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 1: that show. It was such a good idea. Yeah.

503
00:26:17,380 --> 00:26:21,740
Speaker 2: Because it was like, can you help us find, I

504
00:26:21,780 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 2: always think about the guy and you covered it, that

505
00:26:23,780 --> 00:26:25,540
Speaker 2: cold case where it was like the boy that like,

506
00:26:26,090 --> 00:26:27,609
Speaker 2: he got out of his car and was like out

507
00:26:27,630 --> 00:26:30,770
Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere in the Midwest. Yeah. And

508
00:26:30,790 --> 00:26:33,810
Speaker 2: he's talking to his parents on the phone. I remember

509
00:26:33,869 --> 00:26:36,050
Speaker 2: watching that one and just being like, we've got to

510
00:26:36,130 --> 00:26:41,270
Speaker 2: find him. Totally. It activated the audience in this amazing way.

511
00:26:41,290 --> 00:26:45,470
Speaker 1: Yeah. To pay attention to their surroundings more, I think, right?

512
00:26:46,010 --> 00:26:49,689
Speaker 2: Yeah. And that they're a part of, they could actually

513
00:26:49,790 --> 00:26:53,740
Speaker 2: help something in these cases where it's like, Well, if

514
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,820
Speaker 2: the police just say it's cold and then they start

515
00:26:55,859 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 2: on the next murder because they never stop coming.

516
00:26:58,540 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: Right.

517
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,220
Speaker 2: What do we do with these cold cases?

518
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:02,340
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah.

519
00:27:02,770 --> 00:27:05,550
Speaker 2: And Robert Stack, just what a, you really wanted to

520
00:27:05,590 --> 00:27:06,270
Speaker 2: help that man.

521
00:27:06,490 --> 00:27:10,830
Speaker 1: You did. He was so sincere and so like, come on.

522
00:27:10,910 --> 00:27:14,050
Speaker 2: He was just in it. And it worked because a

523
00:27:14,050 --> 00:27:18,170
Speaker 2: 46-year-old maintenance worker named Becky Grannis is watching the show

524
00:27:18,210 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 2: that night in Arizona when a familiar.

525
00:27:21,140 --> 00:27:22,820
Speaker 1: Face flashes across the screen.

526
00:27:23,750 --> 00:27:27,470
Speaker 2: It's presented as a photo of Gregory Barker, but she says, quote,

527
00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:29,950
Speaker 2: I was sitting in my living room saying, I know

528
00:27:30,010 --> 00:27:31,630
Speaker 2: that man, end quote.

529
00:27:31,670 --> 00:27:33,109
Speaker 1: Everyone's dream who watched that show.

530
00:27:33,350 --> 00:27:36,109
Speaker 2: Especially every 12-year-old's dream that watched that show.

531
00:27:36,130 --> 00:27:37,870
Speaker 1: That's my what? That's my boss.

532
00:27:38,470 --> 00:27:43,060
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my horrible teacher. So Becky thinks that this

533
00:27:43,100 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: man looks exactly like a telemarketer who works in the

534
00:27:46,020 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: office complex where she works. And that guy goes by

535
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,790
Speaker 2: the name Alex Graham. She's so smart because I think

536
00:27:52,869 --> 00:27:55,050
Speaker 2: I would have just called immediately and just been like

537
00:27:55,070 --> 00:27:57,609
Speaker 2: freaked out. She goes to work the next morning and

538
00:27:57,710 --> 00:28:00,790
Speaker 2: gets a look at Alex Graham to make sure.

539
00:28:00,990 --> 00:28:01,830
Speaker 1: How spooky.

540
00:28:02,010 --> 00:28:05,230
Speaker 2: Right? But like also smart where it's like, this is

541
00:28:05,270 --> 00:28:09,510
Speaker 2: the guy. So she's convinced it's the same guy from

542
00:28:09,530 --> 00:28:13,310
Speaker 2: the episode. So she calls police. And because Greg Barker

543
00:28:13,490 --> 00:28:17,330
Speaker 2: is also a federal fugitive from the robbery charges, the

544
00:28:17,470 --> 00:28:21,070
Speaker 2: FBI swoops in and arrests him. less than 24 hours

545
00:28:21,290 --> 00:28:25,909
Speaker 2: after that episode of Unsolved Mysteries airs. Greg Barker is

546
00:28:25,930 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 2: then extradited to Nevada and prosecuted for those three robberies first.

547
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 2: He's given 20 years in prison, and then he's brought

548
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 2: to Virginia to be tried for the abduction and murder

549
00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:43,390
Speaker 2: of Hilda Roche. Greg Barker pleads guilty, so there's no trial. Really? Wow. Yeah.

550
00:28:43,670 --> 00:28:48,590
Speaker 2: He just immediately pleads. He's given a 110-year sentence. To

551
00:28:48,630 --> 00:28:51,170
Speaker 2: be served after his federal sentence is over.

552
00:28:51,190 --> 00:28:52,010
Speaker 1: Wow.

553
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:56,030
Speaker 2: And while we don't have direct testimony from him, Detective

554
00:28:56,070 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: Cahill says on Unsolved Mysteries that he believes that Barker

555
00:29:00,660 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 2: went to Hilda's house that night under the guise of

556
00:29:03,220 --> 00:29:06,780
Speaker 2: returning her wallet. And then after attacking her in the

557
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,330
Speaker 2: living room, he took her upstairs and sexually assaulted her

558
00:29:10,370 --> 00:29:13,030
Speaker 2: in her bedroom, then put her in the trunk of

559
00:29:13,070 --> 00:29:16,990
Speaker 2: his car. drove and found a secluded place 10 miles away,

560
00:29:17,270 --> 00:29:20,060
Speaker 2: led her into the woods, and shot her in the head.

561
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: So awful.

562
00:29:21,660 --> 00:29:26,540
Speaker 2: Yeah. So when he's arrested in Arizona, Barker reportedly tries

563
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:30,100
Speaker 2: to claim that he was a government agent entangled in

564
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:35,050
Speaker 2: some sort of military conspiracy. And actually, on that episode

565
00:29:35,090 --> 00:29:39,450
Speaker 2: of Unsolved Mysteries, Detective Cahill says Barker was known to

566
00:29:39,490 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 2: have an understanding obsession with spy novels and believed himself

567
00:29:43,460 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 2: to be a quote, master spy.

568
00:29:45,980 --> 00:29:49,740
Speaker 1: Yeah. Greg Barker dies in prison in 2013.

569
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:54,780
Speaker 2: As of now, Hilda Roche is the only victim that

570
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: we know of that he has. And a lot of

571
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: people talk about if he had this unhealthy obsession with

572
00:30:01,180 --> 00:30:05,630
Speaker 2: spy novels, then, you know, he was mentally ill, mentally unwell.

573
00:30:05,950 --> 00:30:09,610
Speaker 2: And whether his motive was straightforward and opportunistic and he

574
00:30:09,630 --> 00:30:11,470
Speaker 2: was aware of what he was doing or he was

575
00:30:11,630 --> 00:30:14,370
Speaker 2: in a psychological state where he didn't. The fact is

576
00:30:14,410 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 2: that he sexually assaulted and then murdered a woman who

577
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,610
Speaker 2: thought that she could trust him. Police believe Greg Barker's

578
00:30:21,670 --> 00:30:25,070
Speaker 2: name could come up in other unsolved cases in the future.

579
00:30:25,630 --> 00:30:29,850
Speaker 2: Detective Cahill actually says on that episode of Unsolved Mysteries, quote,

580
00:30:30,510 --> 00:30:33,770
Speaker 2: from doing a background investigation on Mr. Barker, we don't

581
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:37,250
Speaker 2: believe this was his only murder that he committed. We

582
00:30:37,310 --> 00:30:40,750
Speaker 2: don't believe this is the last murder he committed. We

583
00:30:40,810 --> 00:30:44,540
Speaker 2: believe that he could be responsible for numerous murders. We

584
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,060
Speaker 2: feel that possibly he could even be a serial murderer.

585
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,979
Speaker 2: We're very sure of the fact that he is smart

586
00:30:51,420 --> 00:30:53,180
Speaker 2: and he's very dangerous. Wow.

587
00:30:53,340 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: End quote.

588
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,300
Speaker 2: And that's the story of the murder of Hilda Roche.

589
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:58,060
Speaker 1: Wow.

590
00:30:58,220 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: Wow.

591
00:30:58,620 --> 00:30:59,219
Speaker 1: Great job.

592
00:30:59,380 --> 00:30:59,820
Speaker 2: Thank you.

593
00:31:00,020 --> 00:31:03,290
Speaker 1: It's so troubling that the little piece of information that

594
00:31:03,310 --> 00:31:05,690
Speaker 1: you gave earlier on, that they found her wallet at

595
00:31:05,750 --> 00:31:08,530
Speaker 1: her house, I hadn't even connected. It's like, that's how

596
00:31:08,590 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: you know they had seen each other again. Yes.

597
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:14,110
Speaker 2: I mean, we know this too. And I'm sure that's

598
00:31:14,130 --> 00:31:16,670
Speaker 2: why people didn't really, he didn't even really try to,

599
00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:19,430
Speaker 2: he didn't try to claim insanity or anything. It's like,

600
00:31:19,870 --> 00:31:23,090
Speaker 2: it's so clearly planned. It was so clearly planned from

601
00:31:23,170 --> 00:31:25,070
Speaker 2: probably when he sat down next to her.

602
00:31:25,370 --> 00:31:25,690
Speaker 1: Yeah.

603
00:31:25,730 --> 00:31:26,970
Speaker 2: And that's the darkest part.

604
00:31:27,110 --> 00:31:32,740
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. God. DNA, let's get some fucking cases

605
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:41,790
Speaker 1: solved with this asshole. Well, great job. Thank you. All right. Well,

606
00:31:41,810 --> 00:31:44,710
Speaker 1: I have a very different style of story as we

607
00:31:44,750 --> 00:31:49,650
Speaker 1: like to do. Great. However, the story does involve the

608
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: death of innocent people at the hands of people who

609
00:31:53,180 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: are criminally responsible. It's just in a different way. We're

610
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,650
Speaker 1: starting in the fall of 2008 in Dayton, Ohio. And

611
00:32:01,770 --> 00:32:05,630
Speaker 1: Minnie Borden is an 82-year-old woman originally from Alabama who

612
00:32:05,670 --> 00:32:09,910
Speaker 1: has been in great health Other than suffering from rheumatoid arthritis,

613
00:32:09,970 --> 00:32:12,530
Speaker 1: which has been an issue most of her life, not

614
00:32:12,570 --> 00:32:16,130
Speaker 1: just in her older age. In fact, at 82 years old,

615
00:32:16,170 --> 00:32:20,090
Speaker 1: she still lives by herself and she's fiercely independent. But

616
00:32:20,130 --> 00:32:23,729
Speaker 1: then in November, Minnie starts to have severe stomach pains

617
00:32:23,830 --> 00:32:28,110
Speaker 1: and GI issues. Her appetite plummets, so most days she's

618
00:32:28,190 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: eating only her favorite snack. The only thing she can

619
00:32:31,620 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: keep down, which are Little Debbie peanut butter and cheese crackers.

620
00:32:35,380 --> 00:32:35,450
Speaker 2: Hmm.

621
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: Minnie's daughter, Earlene, is becoming increasingly worried about her mom,

622
00:32:40,380 --> 00:32:42,860
Speaker 1: who insists that she's fine. I feel like that's a

623
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,530
Speaker 1: generation where they just didn't acknowledge being not well.

624
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:47,310
Speaker 2: Yeah.

625
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:50,290
Speaker 1: By December, the symptoms have not let up, and Minnie

626
00:32:50,390 --> 00:32:55,130
Speaker 1: is noticeably weaker. Finally, on December 10th, she calls her daughter, Earlene,

627
00:32:55,250 --> 00:32:58,430
Speaker 1: and says the stomach pains have worsened, and she now

628
00:32:58,510 --> 00:33:03,130
Speaker 1: also has chest pains. They take her to the hospital. Basically,

629
00:33:03,170 --> 00:33:05,730
Speaker 1: they check her heart, and nothing happens. shows up. So

630
00:33:05,770 --> 00:33:10,590
Speaker 1: Minnie's discharged, but there's no improvement. And Minnie then goes

631
00:33:10,670 --> 00:33:13,790
Speaker 1: back to her primary doctor. A few days later, the

632
00:33:13,810 --> 00:33:16,470
Speaker 1: doctor finds out she had been having bloody stools for

633
00:33:16,510 --> 00:33:19,790
Speaker 1: weeks now. And so Minnie goes back to the ER

634
00:33:20,510 --> 00:33:23,090
Speaker 1: and is admitted, but it takes several more days before

635
00:33:23,130 --> 00:33:25,690
Speaker 1: a stool sample is sent for pathogen testing, which is,

636
00:33:25,710 --> 00:33:29,930
Speaker 1: it's unclear why that took so long, but it's only

637
00:33:30,070 --> 00:33:33,060
Speaker 1: at the end of December that a clear diagnosis comes back.

638
00:33:33,810 --> 00:33:39,130
Speaker 1: as salmonella, particularly a strain called salmonella typhimurium, which is

639
00:33:39,170 --> 00:33:43,100
Speaker 1: one of the leading strains of foodborne illness. So Minnie

640
00:33:43,180 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: is discharged, but she's very weak and she has several

641
00:33:46,260 --> 00:33:49,180
Speaker 1: other big health episodes over the month of January and

642
00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:54,450
Speaker 1: passes away on January 20th, devastating her family because Minnie

643
00:33:54,490 --> 00:34:01,100
Speaker 1: had been so healthy before this short period started. And

644
00:34:01,140 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: because they had been so worried about Minnie all of

645
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: that time and through January, it seems that her family

646
00:34:05,980 --> 00:34:10,450
Speaker 1: doesn't immediately register. This coincidence may be that in the

647
00:34:10,489 --> 00:34:14,730
Speaker 1: same month, a major salmonella outbreak is traced back to

648
00:34:14,770 --> 00:34:19,630
Speaker 1: a company called the Peanut Corporation of America, which mainly

649
00:34:19,670 --> 00:34:22,870
Speaker 1: sells peanuts and peanut butter to other companies in industrial

650
00:34:22,950 --> 00:34:27,910
Speaker 1: quantities to be used in snacks like Minnie's favorite peanut

651
00:34:27,930 --> 00:34:30,879
Speaker 1: butter crackers. Yeah, the one thing that she was able

652
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,890
Speaker 1: to eat while she was being made sick from that

653
00:34:34,010 --> 00:34:36,529
Speaker 1: one thing she was able to eat. It's so sad.

654
00:34:37,150 --> 00:34:39,510
Speaker 1: So this is the story of a foodborne safety crisis

655
00:34:39,530 --> 00:34:43,150
Speaker 1: that ended up causing multiple deaths and had criminal consequences.

656
00:34:43,730 --> 00:34:45,870
Speaker 1: The main sources for the story are reporting from The

657
00:34:45,930 --> 00:34:48,330
Speaker 1: New Yorker and The Washington Post, as well as a

658
00:34:48,370 --> 00:34:51,270
Speaker 1: blog post from a very prominent food safety lawyer named

659
00:34:51,310 --> 00:34:54,950
Speaker 1: Bill Marler, who represented some of the victims in this case.

660
00:34:55,469 --> 00:34:56,989
Speaker 1: The rest of the sources can be found in the

661
00:34:57,030 --> 00:35:00,450
Speaker 1: show notes. So the outbreak had begun in the fall

662
00:35:00,469 --> 00:35:05,540
Speaker 1: of 2008, and a total of 714 people are known

663
00:35:05,580 --> 00:35:08,500
Speaker 1: to have become sick from it. But I guess in

664
00:35:08,540 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: these situations, the real number is always much higher because

665
00:35:12,180 --> 00:35:16,950
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't recognize their GI symptoms as salmonella,

666
00:35:16,969 --> 00:35:21,130
Speaker 1: and that's mainly because they're strong enough to fight off

667
00:35:21,150 --> 00:35:24,950
Speaker 1: the infection and don't become dangerously dehydrated. So these outbreaks

668
00:35:24,989 --> 00:35:28,050
Speaker 1: are often much, much bigger than is reported and realized.

669
00:35:28,230 --> 00:35:32,370
Speaker 1: So people just will have salmonella and just not know it? Yeah. Like,

670
00:35:32,410 --> 00:35:35,219
Speaker 1: you know, you and me were, you know, younger. We

671
00:35:35,550 --> 00:35:38,100
Speaker 1: have the immune system that can fight it, but it's,

672
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: you know, children and immune compromised and elderly people. Those

673
00:35:42,180 --> 00:35:44,060
Speaker 1: are the ones who can't fight it and are like

674
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: hospitalized and found out. So it's probably way higher than

675
00:35:47,219 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: that number. Have you had food poisoning? I don't think

676
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:53,930
Speaker 1: I've had legit food poisoning before. I think I would remember, right?

677
00:35:54,170 --> 00:35:54,650
Speaker 1: You would know.

678
00:35:54,750 --> 00:35:55,010
Speaker 2: Yeah.

679
00:35:55,250 --> 00:35:57,350
Speaker 1: I remember Vince ate an oyster when we were in

680
00:35:57,390 --> 00:36:00,270
Speaker 1: Las Vegas and I can't imagine.

681
00:36:00,489 --> 00:36:04,180
Speaker 2: It's insane. Yeah. I got it one time from a

682
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:05,540
Speaker 2: Chinese chicken salad.

683
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:08,060
Speaker 1: That's right. That was like made with cabbage. Yeah.

684
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,780
Speaker 2: And I truly was like, I think I'm going to die.

685
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,430
Speaker 2: Like I was like, when do I call someone?

686
00:36:13,450 --> 00:36:13,529
Speaker 1: Yeah.

687
00:36:13,610 --> 00:36:18,310
Speaker 2: Because I haven't been able to stop doing this for two,

688
00:36:18,390 --> 00:36:19,030
Speaker 2: three days.

689
00:36:19,210 --> 00:36:20,810
Speaker 1: It's that long? It's two, three days?

690
00:36:21,130 --> 00:36:23,330
Speaker 2: It's like your system has to purge and then it

691
00:36:23,650 --> 00:36:24,810
Speaker 2: won't stop purging.

692
00:36:25,310 --> 00:36:26,529
Speaker 1: And it's crazy.

693
00:36:26,670 --> 00:36:26,890
Speaker 2: Yeah.

694
00:36:27,130 --> 00:36:31,049
Speaker 1: It's awful. Well, so yeah, for children especially and the elderly. Mm-hmm.

695
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 1: You know, it's a problem. In early November of that year,

696
00:36:34,420 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: a seven-year-old boy named Christopher Mignet from South Burlington, Vermont,

697
00:36:38,660 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: spikes a high fever. It's the first time his mother

698
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 1: can remember him being sick since he was a toddler.

699
00:36:44,020 --> 00:36:47,299
Speaker 1: He has bloody diarrhea and is throwing up, and his

700
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 1: stomach pain is so severe he screams that he wants

701
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,620
Speaker 1: to die. Oh, God. I know. So while this is

702
00:36:53,660 --> 00:36:56,220
Speaker 1: going on all over the country, both state and federal

703
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,469
Speaker 1: health organizations are still trying to pinpoint the source of

704
00:36:59,530 --> 00:37:02,730
Speaker 1: the contamination. They realize... People are getting sick. They don't

705
00:37:02,770 --> 00:37:06,630
Speaker 1: know how. In Minnesota, where there are nine known cases,

706
00:37:06,650 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: a group of grad students working in the Department of

707
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: Public Health start calling patients about their diets. The group

708
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: works at night and they call themselves Team Diarrhea, which is,

709
00:37:17,060 --> 00:37:19,550
Speaker 1: I don't know how to comment on that.

710
00:37:21,030 --> 00:37:24,049
Speaker 2: Whatever gets them through their day because they actually, they

711
00:37:24,110 --> 00:37:26,870
Speaker 2: do have to deal with literal diarrhea.

712
00:37:26,890 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 1: It's a dark time, whatever gets you through it.

713
00:37:29,410 --> 00:37:30,009
Speaker 2: Yeah.

714
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,980
Speaker 1: Eventually in late December, they get a break. They find

715
00:37:34,020 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 1: that two nursing homes and an elementary school each have

716
00:37:36,820 --> 00:37:39,739
Speaker 1: a cluster of cases and everyone seems to have eaten

717
00:37:39,780 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: peanut butter. One of the nursing homes still has a

718
00:37:42,739 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 1: jar of peanut butter that they had used on hand.

719
00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:49,990
Speaker 1: It's from a brand called King Nut, which only sells

720
00:37:50,090 --> 00:37:53,890
Speaker 1: to institutions like nursing homes, hospitals, and schools, and is

721
00:37:54,030 --> 00:37:57,930
Speaker 1: fully made by the Peanut Corporation of America. Which I

722
00:37:57,969 --> 00:38:00,469
Speaker 1: don't think you should be allowed to call your company that.

723
00:38:00,510 --> 00:38:03,900
Speaker 1: Doesn't it seem like they represent the country in peanuts?

724
00:38:04,540 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: Like call it Joe's Peanut Corporation.

725
00:38:06,780 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 2: It's not like, you know what I mean? NBC is

726
00:38:10,140 --> 00:38:14,739
Speaker 2: the National Biscuit Company or whatever. It was a good

727
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:17,180
Speaker 2: naming device back then because it's like, no, no, no,

728
00:38:17,219 --> 00:38:20,530
Speaker 2: I'm not just a guy that built this by myself earlier.

729
00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:23,070
Speaker 2: We're a whole thing of America.

730
00:38:23,150 --> 00:38:25,470
Speaker 1: I don't think we should be able to do that.

731
00:38:25,510 --> 00:38:28,670
Speaker 1: It's so not clear that it's like just a fucking

732
00:38:28,730 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: company of executives making decisions, you know?

733
00:38:31,930 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 2: It's just a bunch of people that do not have

734
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 2: peanut allergies. Exactly. Exactly.

735
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: So the Peanut Corporation of America had originated as a

736
00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:41,830
Speaker 1: family business started by a man named Hugh Parnell, who

737
00:38:41,890 --> 00:38:46,410
Speaker 1: mostly sold raw peanuts to candy manufacturers. In 1977, the

738
00:38:46,450 --> 00:38:49,690
Speaker 1: Parnells buy a roasting facility in Virginia and start roasting

739
00:38:49,730 --> 00:38:52,860
Speaker 1: their own peanuts and eventually making their own peanut products.

740
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: In the 90s, Hugh sells the company, but just six

741
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,940
Speaker 1: years later, his sons buy it back, led by the

742
00:39:00,060 --> 00:39:04,860
Speaker 1: eldest named Stuart. So that's Stuart Parnell. And business booms

743
00:39:05,020 --> 00:39:07,940
Speaker 1: through the early 2000s. People looking at the situation in

744
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,020
Speaker 1: retrospect now think that the key to their success laid

745
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,540
Speaker 1: in three hallmark practices of the business, which is number one,

746
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,130
Speaker 1: sourcing the cheapest peanuts possible. Number two, paying workers very little.

747
00:39:20,650 --> 00:39:24,149
Speaker 1: And number three, not maintaining the facilities very well, just

748
00:39:24,190 --> 00:39:25,310
Speaker 1: like Exactly Right Media.

749
00:39:25,330 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 2: I will show you pictures of that hallmark. of that

750
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 2: Halloween party they had.

751
00:39:31,780 --> 00:39:34,780
Speaker 1: I know, they had a Halloween party. It was the best.

752
00:39:35,180 --> 00:39:38,020
Speaker 1: It was so good. They really did it. So there's

753
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,060
Speaker 1: a man named David Brooks. He's a buyer for a

754
00:39:40,260 --> 00:39:43,300
Speaker 1: snack company, and he has long refused to do business

755
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 1: with the Peanut Corporation of America. And this was based

756
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,690
Speaker 1: on three visits he made to the company's processing facility

757
00:39:48,710 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: in in the 80s. Brooks says, quote, it was just filthy.

758
00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: Dust was all over the beams, the braces of the building,

759
00:39:56,980 --> 00:39:59,359
Speaker 1: the roof leaked, the windows would be open and birds

760
00:39:59,380 --> 00:40:01,860
Speaker 1: would fly through the building. What? It was just a

761
00:40:01,980 --> 00:40:04,500
Speaker 1: time bomb waiting to go off and everybody in the

762
00:40:04,580 --> 00:40:08,410
Speaker 1: peanut industry in Georgia, Virginia, and Texas, they all knew,

763
00:40:08,430 --> 00:40:09,290
Speaker 1: end quote.

764
00:40:09,370 --> 00:40:12,020
Speaker 2: You know, I'm just thinking of it like, And I'm

765
00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:14,900
Speaker 2: truly talking off the top of my head and out

766
00:40:14,940 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 2: of my ass right now.

767
00:40:15,980 --> 00:40:16,340
Speaker 1: Yeah.

768
00:40:17,300 --> 00:40:19,700
Speaker 2: But like, it feels to me like the peanut industry

769
00:40:19,820 --> 00:40:23,220
Speaker 2: was really like a major thing in this country.

770
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:23,940
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

771
00:40:23,980 --> 00:40:26,259
Speaker 2: Like back in the day, you know what I mean?

772
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,550
Speaker 2: Like peanut farmers and like the way... You know, people

773
00:40:29,610 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 2: in Georgia like made their money and it was a

774
00:40:32,469 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: huge thing. There's a reason we all eat peanut butter.

775
00:40:35,020 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: Totally. We eat so much freaking peanut butter in this country,

776
00:40:38,540 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 1: I'd imagine more than any anywhere else.

777
00:40:40,580 --> 00:40:43,359
Speaker 2: Yeah. And they're like, yeah, the birds can come through here.

778
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:47,430
Speaker 1: Totally. Peanut scientists, email us at MyFavoriteMurder at Gmail and

779
00:40:47,450 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 1: tell us.

780
00:40:47,989 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 2: We want to know.

781
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:50,819
Speaker 1: We want to know how big it is. How big

782
00:40:50,860 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: is Big Peanut here in the U.S.

783
00:40:53,620 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 2: You know, they just did get, because it is, you know,

784
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,489
Speaker 2: it's Halloween time, but they just did a story about

785
00:41:00,550 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 2: how candy is getting really bad because... Like private equity

786
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,359
Speaker 2: keeps buying into candy companies and then just being like,

787
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,509
Speaker 2: you don't need real cocoa. You don't need real this.

788
00:41:09,530 --> 00:41:10,530
Speaker 1: And they just.

789
00:41:10,450 --> 00:41:12,370
Speaker 2: Keep making everything taste worse.

790
00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:14,570
Speaker 1: And everyone's like, oh, is it because I'm not a

791
00:41:14,610 --> 00:41:18,090
Speaker 1: kid anymore? No, it's because nobody gives a fuck anymore. Yeah.

792
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: We need that oversight.

793
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,330
Speaker 1: We got to bring it back. Imagine that. So Brooks

794
00:41:23,410 --> 00:41:26,850
Speaker 1: mentions the fact that it's also Georgia, Virginia, and Texas

795
00:41:26,910 --> 00:41:30,779
Speaker 1: because the Peanut Corporation of America has facilities in all

796
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: three states and all appear to be equally filthy. I know.

797
00:41:35,540 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: This seems to consistently remain the case into the 90s

798
00:41:38,739 --> 00:41:42,310
Speaker 1: and the 2000s. In 2006, a new assistant manager named

799
00:41:42,350 --> 00:41:45,690
Speaker 1: Ken Kendrick points out cleanliness issues at the facility itself.

800
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: The leaking roof being the most egregious. And he'll later

801
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,970
Speaker 1: tell reporters, quote, water, particularly anything leaking off of a roof.

802
00:41:53,510 --> 00:41:55,850
Speaker 1: And this is where things get a little disgusting. There

803
00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:59,350
Speaker 1: is bird feces washing in. Yeah. This is a quote.

804
00:41:59,730 --> 00:42:02,089
Speaker 1: The owner wouldn't give us the money to do what

805
00:42:02,110 --> 00:42:05,430
Speaker 1: we needed to do. The funds were not there, end quote.

806
00:42:05,489 --> 00:42:09,290
Speaker 1: And so he quits the job pretty quickly after he

807
00:42:09,350 --> 00:42:11,910
Speaker 1: gets it. He's just like, I can't in good faith

808
00:42:12,180 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: do this without... I mean.

809
00:42:14,610 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 2: It is that thing where it's like, after a little while,

810
00:42:17,020 --> 00:42:22,100
Speaker 2: the greed doesn't even make sense anymore. It's just insanity

811
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,060
Speaker 2: and you are doing damage and pretending it doesn't matter. Totally.

812
00:42:26,460 --> 00:42:30,720
Speaker 1: Totally. There's a thing called moral something.

813
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:31,549
Speaker 2: Moral peanuts?

814
00:42:32,030 --> 00:42:33,070
Speaker 1: Moral peanuts.

815
00:42:33,930 --> 00:42:37,550
Speaker 2: Where you don't put bird shit into your peanut mix? Yeah.

816
00:42:37,750 --> 00:42:41,070
Speaker 1: I love that kind. That's it. Moral peanuts. Moral peanuts.

817
00:42:41,550 --> 00:42:45,410
Speaker 1: But then in early 2009, after Ken had left the position,

818
00:42:45,830 --> 00:42:48,629
Speaker 1: he hears that a PCA facility in Georgia has been

819
00:42:48,670 --> 00:42:51,230
Speaker 1: linked to the Salmonella outbreak in Minnesota. And so he

820
00:42:51,330 --> 00:42:55,430
Speaker 1: actually calls authorities and keeps calling them, telling them that

821
00:42:55,469 --> 00:42:58,069
Speaker 1: whatever problems they are seeing in Georgia will likely be

822
00:42:58,110 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: found in the Texas facility as well. So he's just like,

823
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: I'm not only going to quit my job, I'm going

824
00:43:02,540 --> 00:43:05,180
Speaker 1: to be a whistleblower because this is so fucked.

825
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 2: And how maddening where you're like, it's worse than you

826
00:43:08,219 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 2: even think because it's not just In the place you're

827
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 2: focusing on, you've got more coming.

828
00:43:13,940 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 1: Totally. Totally.

829
00:43:15,060 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: Horrible.

830
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,900
Speaker 1: So sure enough, just as Ken had said, in February

831
00:43:19,100 --> 00:43:22,820
Speaker 1: of 2009, Texas authorities shut down a peanut corporation plant

832
00:43:22,900 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: in Plainview after discovering dead rodents, their excrement, and bird

833
00:43:28,500 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: feathers near an air exchange that ventilates into the production room.

834
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:36,029
Speaker 1: Have you heard that thing where, like, there's allowed to

835
00:43:36,070 --> 00:43:39,670
Speaker 1: be a certain amount of, like, bug poop? Parts in

836
00:43:39,770 --> 00:43:41,190
Speaker 1: peanut butter or something like that.

837
00:43:41,350 --> 00:43:44,300
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's all kinds of things like that with food.

838
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:44,420
Speaker 1: Yeah.

839
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,439
Speaker 2: Again, I don't want to know the problem with like

840
00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 2: when they made that argument of like corporations or people.

841
00:43:51,380 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's like God.

842
00:43:53,219 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 2: But the problem is that there's some people in this

843
00:43:55,660 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: world that are immoral and don't give a shit about

844
00:43:58,660 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: other people.

845
00:43:59,580 --> 00:44:00,400
Speaker 1: Exactly.

846
00:44:00,420 --> 00:44:03,419
Speaker 2: It's not a good thing. No.

847
00:44:03,500 --> 00:44:06,420
Speaker 1: Later, it'll become apparent that there was either a massive

848
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 1: oversight on the part of Texas authorities or possibly some

849
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:14,380
Speaker 1: corruption that's never been fully unraveled. That Texas plant opened

850
00:44:14,420 --> 00:44:17,650
Speaker 1: in 2005, and at the plant, peanuts were blanched, roasted,

851
00:44:17,750 --> 00:44:20,290
Speaker 1: and chopped, but the facility never got a state license

852
00:44:20,330 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 1: to manufacture food. The state never performed a single inspection

853
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 1: until that one four years later when all the rodent

854
00:44:28,300 --> 00:44:29,860
Speaker 1: and bird activity was discovered.

855
00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:30,500
Speaker 2: Damn.

856
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,670
Speaker 1: So... That's allegedly. Tests from this inspection come back positive

857
00:44:34,710 --> 00:44:38,250
Speaker 1: for Salmonella, and a sweeping recall is issued of everything

858
00:44:38,690 --> 00:44:41,230
Speaker 1: ever produced at the facility in the entire time it

859
00:44:41,270 --> 00:44:43,690
Speaker 1: had been in operation. So all of this, of course,

860
00:44:43,910 --> 00:44:47,089
Speaker 1: is very bad. But what makes this situation cross over

861
00:44:47,150 --> 00:44:51,590
Speaker 1: into criminal territory? Well, when the FDA inspects the Georgia plant,

862
00:44:51,650 --> 00:44:57,719
Speaker 1: they invoke a 2002 law aimed at counteracting bioterrorism. And

863
00:44:57,739 --> 00:44:59,500
Speaker 1: they do this in order to gain access to the

864
00:44:59,540 --> 00:45:03,839
Speaker 1: company records. So it wasn't criminal until this moment that

865
00:45:03,860 --> 00:45:06,140
Speaker 1: they were so, you know, lax.

866
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: This was more like they were going to be given

867
00:45:08,219 --> 00:45:10,430
Speaker 2: fines and told to clean up.

868
00:45:10,530 --> 00:45:14,930
Speaker 1: Exactly. But I think it was so severe that the

869
00:45:15,090 --> 00:45:18,910
Speaker 1: FDA was like, fuck this. These are records that state inspectors,

870
00:45:19,290 --> 00:45:21,819
Speaker 1: you know, wouldn't have been able to gain access if

871
00:45:22,070 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: it was just, you know, regular charges. These records show

872
00:45:25,300 --> 00:45:29,070
Speaker 1: that on 12 occasions between 2007 and 2008, tests of

873
00:45:29,110 --> 00:45:32,410
Speaker 1: peanut products made in the Georgia plants came up showing

874
00:45:32,650 --> 00:45:36,569
Speaker 1: salmonella contamination. And after this, subsequent tests seemed to come

875
00:45:36,650 --> 00:45:40,009
Speaker 1: up with clean results, but these initial tests would have

876
00:45:40,070 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 1: prompted the company to quarantine the products immediately. And deep

877
00:45:43,260 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: clean the processing plants, but none of that happened.

878
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: They're not even lightly cleaning. They're not even doing a

879
00:45:50,380 --> 00:45:53,580
Speaker 2: Karen on a Saturday afternoon just in case someone drops

880
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 2: by Passover clean.

881
00:45:55,860 --> 00:45:56,060
Speaker 1: Nope.

882
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 2: Bird shit.

883
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,900
Speaker 1: Bird and rat shit. Like, come on. Come on. Why

884
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,860
Speaker 1: do we have to ask? Why do we have to ask? Yeah,

885
00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: why can't... At the same time, in February of 2009,

886
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: at the start of the Obama administration, Congress conducts its

887
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,050
Speaker 1: own investigation into the company, and through this investigation, internal

888
00:46:17,170 --> 00:46:21,350
Speaker 1: emails are released. These emails demonstrate that Stuart Parnell, the

889
00:46:21,370 --> 00:46:23,489
Speaker 1: head of the company, the son of the guy who

890
00:46:23,530 --> 00:46:26,690
Speaker 1: started it, and other higher-ups knew there were issues with

891
00:46:26,730 --> 00:46:30,410
Speaker 1: salmonella and other food safety concerns. It also shows that

892
00:46:30,430 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: the company would falsify test results by testing one batch

893
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:38,620
Speaker 1: of products repeatedly. then assigning those results to lot numbers

894
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: of products that had never been tested. Peanut Corporation of

895
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:47,250
Speaker 1: America had signed contracts with food manufacturers, including Kellogg's, certifying

896
00:46:47,310 --> 00:46:50,090
Speaker 1: that all peanuts had been grown in the U.S. unless

897
00:46:50,150 --> 00:46:53,930
Speaker 1: otherwise specified. But it becomes apparent with the records that

898
00:46:53,950 --> 00:46:57,609
Speaker 1: about 70% of the peanut paste the company had sent

899
00:46:57,650 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: to Kellogg's had actually been from overseas. So they're just

900
00:47:00,780 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: straight up lying.

901
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:03,700
Speaker 2: I'm sorry because this is a little random, but this

902
00:47:03,780 --> 00:47:06,509
Speaker 2: reminds me of that story that a doc series that

903
00:47:06,530 --> 00:47:09,210
Speaker 2: came out about the mortuary guy that was just throwing

904
00:47:09,250 --> 00:47:14,890
Speaker 2: bodies where it's like the internal mechanism to go what's

905
00:47:14,969 --> 00:47:18,129
Speaker 2: right or wrong, what's good or bad. And they're not

906
00:47:18,170 --> 00:47:20,210
Speaker 2: seeing it's like, yeah, you can't just do one of

907
00:47:20,270 --> 00:47:21,530
Speaker 2: these and walk away.

908
00:47:21,550 --> 00:47:23,070
Speaker 1: Yeah. Consequences.

909
00:47:23,690 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 2: There's consequences and you're creating a situation that you're going

910
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 2: to have to answer for at some point.

911
00:47:29,020 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 1: Totally.

912
00:47:29,180 --> 00:47:32,379
Speaker 2: Like you can't just keep Putting like a cover over

913
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 2: it and being like, it's fine.

914
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: Exactly. It's just crazy. It stresses me out. You can

915
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,820
Speaker 1: when there's no oversight whatsoever. In another email, Stewart's daughter,

916
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,760
Speaker 1: who works at the company, emails the company's national sales

917
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: manager and says, quote, they, meaning the peanuts, need to

918
00:47:48,140 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 1: be air-hosed off because they are covered with dust and

919
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,029
Speaker 1: rat crap, end quote. So just put it in fucking writing.

920
00:47:54,050 --> 00:47:55,950
Speaker 2: How about, no, no, throw those ones away.

921
00:47:56,310 --> 00:47:57,730
Speaker 1: Don't air-host.

922
00:47:58,130 --> 00:47:58,790
Speaker 2: No. Oh, no, no.

923
00:47:58,790 --> 00:48:01,629
Speaker 1: It's a five-second rule in rat shit. Doesn't fucking, that

924
00:48:01,670 --> 00:48:06,590
Speaker 1: doesn't work. There's no air-host. There's no, what the fuck? Yeah.

925
00:48:07,260 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 2: That's not, I love a person coming in and pretending

926
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: they're really mad where it's like, you know, we have

927
00:48:12,060 --> 00:48:14,910
Speaker 2: to air-host these all off. Yeah. Or it's like, No, no, no.

928
00:48:15,170 --> 00:48:17,509
Speaker 1: It's over. And also, like, how crazy is it they

929
00:48:17,550 --> 00:48:20,049
Speaker 1: put it in writing? That, like, did that mean they

930
00:48:20,090 --> 00:48:22,489
Speaker 1: didn't think that they were doing anything wrong or that

931
00:48:22,630 --> 00:48:24,510
Speaker 1: they didn't think they'd ever get caught?

932
00:48:24,630 --> 00:48:28,410
Speaker 2: Well, I think this was early enough in, like, computer

933
00:48:28,469 --> 00:48:31,300
Speaker 2: internet times where no one understood it was forever.

934
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,500
Speaker 1: Right, right, right, right, right. Totally.

935
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 2: Including, like, email stuff. They're just like, this is my

936
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:37,439
Speaker 2: private email server.

937
00:48:37,460 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: Totally.

938
00:48:38,020 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 2: It's work email.

939
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

940
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:39,419
Speaker 2: Yeah.

941
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,069
Speaker 1: Another set of emails from March of 2007 has a

942
00:48:43,390 --> 00:48:46,270
Speaker 1: manager from one plant telling Stewart that the test results

943
00:48:46,330 --> 00:48:49,330
Speaker 1: for salmonella and other pathogens were not ready for a

944
00:48:49,370 --> 00:48:52,089
Speaker 1: batch of peanut products that were scheduled to go out.

945
00:48:52,190 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: And Stewart wrote back, quote, just ship it, end quote.

946
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:58,530
Speaker 1: So like, bro. Just fuck it.

947
00:48:58,560 --> 00:48:58,739
Speaker 2: No.

948
00:48:59,540 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: And then goes home at night and is like to

949
00:49:01,020 --> 00:49:03,339
Speaker 1: the kids, like, don't eat, don't eat that peanut butter. Yes,

950
00:49:03,380 --> 00:49:05,460
Speaker 1: we get free peanut butter from the plant that I own,

951
00:49:05,500 --> 00:49:07,420
Speaker 1: but we're not, we don't have that in the house.

952
00:49:07,620 --> 00:49:09,969
Speaker 2: Is this the kind of person that's gotten a family

953
00:49:10,050 --> 00:49:12,029
Speaker 2: for themselves? Or is this the kind of person that

954
00:49:12,170 --> 00:49:15,670
Speaker 2: leaves work, goes straight to a bar, talks very loudly

955
00:49:15,730 --> 00:49:18,730
Speaker 2: about other things and tries to push all of the

956
00:49:18,750 --> 00:49:19,549
Speaker 2: air hose?

957
00:49:20,340 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: Off of Ratched away? I bet both. I bet both

958
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 1: of those things are true. Some people can do it all, truly.

959
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,670
Speaker 1: Two years after these investigations begin in 2013, Stuart Parnell,

960
00:49:32,969 --> 00:49:37,130
Speaker 1: his brother Michael, and three other company executives are indicted

961
00:49:37,150 --> 00:49:40,650
Speaker 1: for Two of the other executives plead guilty and cooperate

962
00:49:40,670 --> 00:49:43,290
Speaker 1: in exchange for a lighter sentence. The third is found

963
00:49:43,330 --> 00:49:46,860
Speaker 1: guilty and sentenced to six years in prison. And Stuart

964
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,460
Speaker 1: and Michael, who own the company and are the sons

965
00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:52,900
Speaker 1: of the guy who created it, they're found guilty of

966
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,860
Speaker 1: multiple counts of conspiracy, mail and wire fraud, and the

967
00:49:56,969 --> 00:50:01,060
Speaker 1: sale of misbranded food. Stewart is also convicted of the

968
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,980
Speaker 1: introduction of adulterated food into interstate commerce.

969
00:50:05,140 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 2: You're not allowed to do that?

970
00:50:06,540 --> 00:50:09,049
Speaker 1: No, like it sounds like a kidnapping thing where it's like, oh,

971
00:50:09,070 --> 00:50:10,670
Speaker 1: you took this food over state lines.

972
00:50:11,070 --> 00:50:14,910
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you adulterated it. Or inadulterated it?

973
00:50:15,050 --> 00:50:16,989
Speaker 1: I don't know. You did something gross to it.

974
00:50:17,070 --> 00:50:18,430
Speaker 2: You did something adult to it.

975
00:50:18,730 --> 00:50:21,430
Speaker 1: These are some of the stiffest sentences ever given to

976
00:50:21,469 --> 00:50:26,950
Speaker 1: an executive in a food poisoning outbreak. Again, in Obama's administration,

977
00:50:27,150 --> 00:50:31,650
Speaker 1: because that would never happen today. Investigators believe that as

978
00:50:31,690 --> 00:50:35,750
Speaker 1: many as 20,000 people, possibly more, were made sick from

979
00:50:35,830 --> 00:50:41,210
Speaker 1: salmonella in Peanut Corporation of America products. At least nine people,

980
00:50:41,270 --> 00:50:42,770
Speaker 1: but possibly more, died.

981
00:50:42,910 --> 00:50:43,570
Speaker 2: Oh, my God.

982
00:50:43,590 --> 00:50:45,549
Speaker 1: But were never traced back to the PCA.

983
00:50:45,570 --> 00:50:46,110
Speaker 2: Right.

984
00:50:46,510 --> 00:50:49,110
Speaker 1: No children are killed in the outbreak, but several become

985
00:50:49,180 --> 00:50:52,410
Speaker 1: very ill. In the wake of this and other outbreaks,

986
00:50:52,430 --> 00:50:56,570
Speaker 1: the Obama administration introduced sweeping new regulations to food safety

987
00:50:56,610 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: systems aimed at preventing outbreaks instead of reacting to them. Unfortunately,

988
00:51:01,660 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 1: during the second Trump administration, the FDA has lost about 20%

989
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: of its staff and the CDC has lost 25% of

990
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 1: their staff. The CDC used to have 11 scientists tracking

991
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,070
Speaker 1: food parasites. Now it has three.

992
00:51:16,090 --> 00:51:22,339
Speaker 2: And one of them is RFK. I am too a scientist.

993
00:51:22,450 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: I'm wearing a white coat. Ivanka Trump is the head.

994
00:51:25,660 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: These cuts were widely attributed to having exacerbated the cyclospora

995
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:36,140
Speaker 1: outbreak from this past summer. Guys, it's all connected. And

996
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: that is the story of the Peanut Corporation of America scandal.

997
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but I kind of want to rename my

998
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 2: LLC the Peanut Corporation of America.

999
00:51:48,100 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 1: What about the Karen Kilgariff Corporation of America? You're the

1000
00:51:51,420 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: only one who's in charge of Karen Kilgariff.

1001
00:51:54,380 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: But I love bird shit, so there's a real push-pull

1002
00:51:58,300 --> 00:51:59,739
Speaker 2: about me and my recipes.

1003
00:51:59,820 --> 00:52:03,300
Speaker 1: Just hose down your house with the air hose. Before

1004
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:04,100
Speaker 1: people come over.

1005
00:52:04,540 --> 00:52:07,549
Speaker 2: I'm going to have to air hose this cat shit

1006
00:52:08,050 --> 00:52:08,990
Speaker 2: out of your dinner.

1007
00:52:09,010 --> 00:52:11,649
Speaker 1: Oh my God. What? No, thank you.

1008
00:52:11,710 --> 00:52:12,230
Speaker 2: No.

1009
00:52:12,590 --> 00:52:14,550
Speaker 1: Oh God. It just makes you want to just grow

1010
00:52:14,590 --> 00:52:16,630
Speaker 1: your own food for the rest of your life.

1011
00:52:16,930 --> 00:52:18,770
Speaker 2: I mean, it feels like that's what so many people

1012
00:52:18,830 --> 00:52:19,250
Speaker 2: are doing.

1013
00:52:19,410 --> 00:52:21,969
Speaker 1: Oh, and also, of course, this podcast will kill you.

1014
00:52:22,010 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 1: Did an episode on salmonella. That is incredible. So go

1015
00:52:25,540 --> 00:52:28,259
Speaker 1: listen to that. It's episode 99. Check that out.

1016
00:52:28,340 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 2: Nice. Yeah, get all the ins and outs of salmonella

1017
00:52:32,340 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 2: that you didn't get here.

1018
00:52:33,860 --> 00:52:36,940
Speaker 1: Get it so that you know when it's happening instead

1019
00:52:36,980 --> 00:52:40,009
Speaker 1: of being like, I'm so sick. And no, you're not.

1020
00:52:40,469 --> 00:52:44,860
Speaker 1: Like you ate something wrong. Did you see the Lizzie

1021
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,380
Speaker 1: Borden Monsters Lizzie Borden show? There's a scene in it

1022
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,260
Speaker 1: where they eat tainted oyster stew.

1023
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:49,340
Speaker 2: Oh.

1024
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: And it is the most disgusting, but probably accurate scene

1025
00:52:55,100 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 1: I have ever seen that made me go, no, I'm

1026
00:52:58,320 --> 00:52:59,439
Speaker 1: never eating oysters again.

1027
00:52:59,460 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: I have to say, you just reminded me, I started

1028
00:53:02,020 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 2: that before I left for vacation. And it was, I

1029
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 2: think I got to episode two of that, of Lizzie

1030
00:53:07,900 --> 00:53:08,740
Speaker 2: Borden Monsters.

1031
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,620
Speaker 1: Ella Beatty, she's Warren Beatty and Annette Bening's daughter. And

1032
00:53:12,660 --> 00:53:13,620
Speaker 1: she's in Incredible.

1033
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:15,340
Speaker 2: Oh, my God. Yeah.

1034
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:16,850
Speaker 1: I know. I know.

1035
00:53:17,010 --> 00:53:20,250
Speaker 2: Here's the thing about acting nepo babies is they got

1036
00:53:20,290 --> 00:53:21,670
Speaker 2: raised by actors. Totally.

1037
00:53:21,690 --> 00:53:21,990
Speaker 1: Totally.

1038
00:53:22,530 --> 00:53:27,110
Speaker 2: So it's not, it's different than some of these Nepo situations. Like,

1039
00:53:27,170 --> 00:53:30,270
Speaker 2: it's like, if you have a mom, that's the most bad.

1040
00:53:30,370 --> 00:53:32,589
Speaker 2: If you have, if your mom's Meryl Streep, you should

1041
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 2: get parts because you already know how to do this shit.

1042
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,460
Speaker 1: Yeah. I feel like with this one, Ella Beatty's like, bitches,

1043
00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: no one better call me a Nepo baby because I'm

1044
00:53:40,700 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: going to do this so well. Like, it's, it's really good.

1045
00:53:42,620 --> 00:53:44,980
Speaker 1: Back up. Back all the way up. I love that.

1046
00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:47,900
Speaker 2: That's a truly hot take in 2026. I'm like, you

1047
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 2: know what? I love Nepo babies.

1048
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:55,650
Speaker 1: We need more Nepo babies. Plumber Nepo babies. Peanut Corporation

1049
00:53:55,710 --> 00:53:56,890
Speaker 1: of America Nepo babies.

1050
00:53:57,090 --> 00:53:59,450
Speaker 2: I was going to say, the Peanut Corporation of America

1051
00:53:59,530 --> 00:54:03,250
Speaker 2: really was not served by their Nepo babies. It depends

1052
00:54:03,350 --> 00:54:05,609
Speaker 2: on the milieu. Oh my God.

1053
00:54:05,650 --> 00:54:08,509
Speaker 1: Can we talk about who the first podcasting Nepo baby

1054
00:54:08,530 --> 00:54:12,009
Speaker 1: is going to be? Because there's going to be one,

1055
00:54:12,230 --> 00:54:14,830
Speaker 1: and it's not going to be ours. Who's it going

1056
00:54:14,850 --> 00:54:17,230
Speaker 1: to be? Well, she grew up with a podcaster, so

1057
00:54:17,250 --> 00:54:19,629
Speaker 1: of course she has a podcast.

1058
00:54:19,930 --> 00:54:23,450
Speaker 2: Of course she speaks compulsively about things that happen in

1059
00:54:23,510 --> 00:54:27,090
Speaker 2: junior high that don't apply to the subject at hand.

1060
00:54:27,110 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: Oh, my God. Ira Glass, where are your children? Are

1061
00:54:30,340 --> 00:54:31,839
Speaker 1: they podcasting? We need to know.

1062
00:54:32,580 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 2: We demand to see your children.

1063
00:54:33,940 --> 00:54:34,819
Speaker 1: We must know.

1064
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 2: Well... That was great. I mean, upsetting, and there's a

1065
00:54:38,180 --> 00:54:41,590
Speaker 2: lot to think about. People are all opening... Their packages

1066
00:54:41,650 --> 00:54:44,310
Speaker 2: of something with peanut butter and closing them back up.

1067
00:54:44,370 --> 00:54:47,259
Speaker 1: Like, Uncrustables would never, you know? God.

1068
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:48,739
Speaker 2: We'd know right away.

1069
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,700
Speaker 1: We would, because I live off of those.

1070
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 2: They're pretty goddamn great.

1071
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,739
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for listening, everyone. We're back from break, and

1072
00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:58,700
Speaker 1: we're happy we'll be back on video next week.

1073
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:03,089
Speaker 2: This was very retro. This actually reminds me of COVID.

1074
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:07,049
Speaker 1: I know, me too. The pandemic, having to record on

1075
00:55:07,510 --> 00:55:08,890
Speaker 1: fucking Zoom every time.

1076
00:55:08,910 --> 00:55:11,430
Speaker 2: Yep. Being like, hey, what's up?

1077
00:55:11,530 --> 00:55:13,290
Speaker 1: And then you have to see your own stupid face

1078
00:55:13,350 --> 00:55:15,090
Speaker 1: in the Zoom thing. I hate it.

1079
00:55:15,250 --> 00:55:18,049
Speaker 2: I know. Well, I covered mine. I used my piece

1080
00:55:18,090 --> 00:55:19,890
Speaker 2: of paper to cover the Zoom thing while I was

1081
00:55:19,950 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 2: talking because I just will keep on looking at my hair.

1082
00:55:24,050 --> 00:55:26,589
Speaker 2: There's a whole part I just don't brush. I'm sure

1083
00:55:26,630 --> 00:55:29,140
Speaker 2: you've noticed. There's a whole part I'm like, oh, that's

1084
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,480
Speaker 2: not my problem. That's whoever's back there's problem.

1085
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: It's none of your business. If you can't see it,

1086
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:35,320
Speaker 1: that part of your hair is none of your business.

1087
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:37,940
Speaker 2: And that's what my mother did. And so that's what

1088
00:55:38,020 --> 00:55:41,210
Speaker 2: I will do. Because I'm a nepo baby. A nepo baby.

1089
00:55:42,010 --> 00:55:44,730
Speaker 2: Of laziness. Yeah. All right. Thanks, everybody.

1090
00:55:44,770 --> 00:55:49,930
Speaker 1: Stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you

1091
00:55:49,950 --> 00:55:50,430
Speaker 1: want a cookie?

1092
00:55:58,380 --> 00:56:00,200
Speaker 2: This has been an Exactly Right production.

1093
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: Our managing producer is Molly Smith.

1094
00:56:02,340 --> 00:56:04,280
Speaker 2: Our consulting producer is Kate Schellenbach.

1095
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 1: Our creative lead is Allison Agosti.

1096
00:56:06,420 --> 00:56:09,180
Speaker 2: Our associate producer is Tessa Hughes, and our editor is

1097
00:56:09,300 --> 00:56:10,460
Speaker 2: Aristotle Acevedo.

1098
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:12,779
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Liana Squalacci.

1099
00:56:12,980 --> 00:56:15,590
Speaker 2: Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Allie Elkin.

1100
00:56:15,790 --> 00:56:19,370
Speaker 1: Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurder at gmail.com and follow the

1101
00:56:19,410 --> 00:56:21,310
Speaker 1: show on Instagram at myfavoritemurder.

1102
00:56:21,550 --> 00:56:24,870
Speaker 2: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1103
00:56:24,950 --> 00:56:26,330
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.

1104
00:56:26,469 --> 00:56:29,540
Speaker 1: Or watch new episodes every week on Netflix. Search for

1105
00:56:29,580 --> 00:56:32,020
Speaker 1: My Favorite Murder, add us to your list, and hit

1106
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:35,779
Speaker 1: the double thumbs up button. Goodbye.