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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Stand Just so people understand that you aren't chasing ghost

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Speaker 2: stories in Bigfoot all the time, I'd like you to

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Speaker 2: sort of give us a broad scope of what the

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Speaker 2: challenges of the job were.

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Speaker 1: Like.

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Speaker 2: Navajo Nation, of course, is gigantic. I mean it's enormous.

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Speaker 2: You have the same kind of crimes out there and

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Speaker 2: law enforcement duties that cops would have in a big city,

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Speaker 2: but also special challenges given how big the area is,

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Speaker 2: how desolate it is, how few rangers there were to

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Speaker 2: cover it all. Tell me about the nature of that

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Speaker 2: challenge about and maybe as an example, that very serious

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Speaker 2: hunt you did for these murderers, these militia fugitives who

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Speaker 2: gunned down a cop in broad daylight.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's hard for people to realize that

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Speaker 3: this size of the Naba Reservation is twenty seven thousand

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Speaker 3: square miles. That's not acres, it's miles. And this is

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Speaker 3: the size of the state of West Virginia. And you're

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Speaker 3: trying to provide enforcement over and protections over all the

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Speaker 3: natural resources. You know, your timber, your wildlife, your archaeological

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Speaker 3: resources which are spread throughout the reservation and you're trying

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Speaker 3: to do that with eight commissioned law enforcement officers. At

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Speaker 3: the time that I left, there was eight rangers remaining.

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Speaker 3: These are federally commissioned law enforcement officers, and it's just

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Speaker 3: not enough personnel to do that job. As a ranger,

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Speaker 3: you had to be a standalone officer. You know, you're

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Speaker 3: out there on your own. You know, in the city

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Speaker 3: you might have a backup partner or you know, on calls,

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Speaker 3: your backup is less than minutes away, you know, if that.

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Speaker 3: On the reservation. As a law enforcement officer, your backup

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Speaker 3: maybe well over an hour hour and a half away

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Speaker 3: if that. So you had to be highly trained. And

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Speaker 3: Jonathan and I were federal firearms instructors, so we taught firearms.

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Speaker 3: We conducted the qualification courses, you know, several times a

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Speaker 3: year with the pistol, rifle and shotgun. But yeah, you

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Speaker 3: had to be able to stand on your own two feet.

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Speaker 3: You didn't have somebody standing there holding your hand, so

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Speaker 3: to speak, as you did your job.

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Speaker 2: You have all the same kind of crimes, but also

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Speaker 2: a lot of special challenges. I mean, Monument Valley you

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Speaker 2: got all kinds of tourists coming through there. As you

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Speaker 2: note in the book, Mom and Pop driving an RV

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Speaker 2: at twenty miles an hour, not paying attention, Hollywood celebrity

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Speaker 2: types driving a Maserati at one hundred and fifty bus

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Speaker 2: an hour, drunken locals, crazy visitors from all over the world.

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Speaker 3: Right, very true. You do have the challenges that you

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Speaker 3: have in the bigger cities. For the navamation. Let's say,

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Speaker 3: in the summertime, a lot of the youth will will

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Speaker 3: travel to the inner cities and spend time with their

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Speaker 3: cousins during their summer break, and they end up bringing back,

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Speaker 3: you know, at a time, they brought back the gang

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Speaker 3: activity that you would see like let's say in Los

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Speaker 3: Angeles or some of these other metropolitan areas, and they

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Speaker 3: bring that gang activity back to the reservation and it

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Speaker 3: ends up being a serious problem. You have homicides, you

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Speaker 3: have drug trafficking, human trafficking, all of these problems that

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Speaker 3: you see in the inner city.

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Speaker 2: These militia guys so three bad own brace they are

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Speaker 2: pulled over and stolen water truck and they gunned down

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Speaker 2: a cop right one morning, and then take off and

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Speaker 2: you're part of the You're right in the thick of

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Speaker 2: this pursuit tell us about that story.

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Speaker 3: That's very true. It was only days that I actually

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Speaker 3: completed the Federal Police Academy and I was asked to

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Speaker 3: bring some watercraft up to the scene where they had

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Speaker 3: staged the operations following the death of the Cortes police

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Speaker 3: officer Dale Claxton, and there was a man ensued where

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Speaker 3: there were officers that had been injured and shot by

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Speaker 3: these militia and they took off out into the desert,

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Speaker 3: and so that asked for my assistance, and I quickly volunteered.

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Speaker 3: Once I got on seeing one of the commanders knew me,

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Speaker 3: and he asked if I wanted to participate in the operations,

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Speaker 3: go out with his swat team, so to speak. And

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Speaker 3: I told him, you know, if we get the permission

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Speaker 3: by my commanders and the Chief Ranger, that I would

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Speaker 3: happily be a part of that. And that's what I did.

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Speaker 3: So I spent the next month out there crawling in

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Speaker 3: the river bottoms in the San Juan River basin and

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Speaker 3: learning what it meant to be a technical officer technical operator.

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Speaker 2: And there were some tense moments that you describe in

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Speaker 2: the book, and you got close to them a couple

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Speaker 2: of times but didn't catch them, and eventually at least

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Speaker 2: the remains of two of them were found all over

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Speaker 2: the place, right.

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Speaker 3: That's very true. One of the there was, so there

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Speaker 3: was three militia personnel, and one of them ended up

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Speaker 3: committing suicide early on in the very beginning of that event,

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Speaker 3: and the other two eluded capture for a long time

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Speaker 3: after that. People would have sightings in and around that

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Speaker 3: particular region. These individuals grew up in that particular area,

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Speaker 3: having worked in the oil fields of that area and

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Speaker 3: being a part of militia, and they knew that area

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Speaker 3: like the back of their hands, and they had already

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Speaker 3: staged food stuff, that staged ammunition and other supplies in

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Speaker 3: areas that led up to that event on what was

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Speaker 3: known as Y two k. You know, there was a

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Speaker 3: preparation by certain individuals that there was going to be

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Speaker 3: a financial collapse and society would collapse, and these individuals

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Speaker 3: were firm believers in that. That's what they were what

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Speaker 3: they were banking on, is that that this was going

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Speaker 3: to occur at the change of the year two thousand

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Speaker 3: and so.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Livestock are an important part of the novel economy,

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Speaker 2: as you note and as a young officer, that's part

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Speaker 2: of your duties is livestock inspections correct and that that

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Speaker 2: eventually leads you to these dead sheep. This rapport on

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Speaker 2: dead sheep that before you're a ranger, you go out

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Speaker 2: to a very strange case. Tell us about that.

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Speaker 3: Actually I was already a commissioned ranger, but that was

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Speaker 3: one of my early cases, and so I was dispatched

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Speaker 3: to respond to a situation where there were twenty six

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Speaker 3: head of sheep that were discovered dead by a family

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Speaker 3: on the reservation. They woke up one morning and there

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Speaker 3: was no indicator that night that there was any type

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Speaker 3: of disturbance with these animals. Typically, if there was a

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Speaker 3: predator that got into the sheep crowd, the dogs would

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Speaker 3: be the sheep. Dogs would be carrying on and you

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Speaker 3: would immediately be awakened by something. But in this situation,

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Speaker 3: there wasn't. That didn't happen. They woke up and they

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Speaker 3: discovered that all of their sheep, twenty six were dead,

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Speaker 3: and the sheep aron there was already a veterinarian from

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Speaker 3: the nomination that was onseen and I arrived there and

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Speaker 3: this guy was wide eyed and he just shrugged his shoulder.

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Speaker 3: He didn't know what had caught the death of these

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Speaker 3: twenty six sheep. You know, I grew up around livestock

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Speaker 3: in Oklahoma, and so I get there and immediately the

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Speaker 3: sheep dogs wouldn't come near the corral, which usually on Navajo,

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Speaker 3: your sheep dogs are the ones that are providing protection

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Speaker 3: for these your flock, and so I get in there,

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Speaker 3: I didn't look into the corral. All of these sheep

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Speaker 3: are dead, but you don't see the telltale evidence of

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Speaker 3: a predatory kill. If a bear or a mountain lion

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Speaker 3: or bobcat gets into a corral and kills some animals,

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Speaker 3: there's obvious evidence, so that you have entrails and blood

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Speaker 3: and a lot of myths really within that coral, and

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Speaker 3: you didn't have that with this particular situation. All of

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Speaker 3: the animals were dead, but there was no blood within

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Speaker 3: the corral. And these sheep were slid open from their

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Speaker 3: neck area all the way down to their growing And

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Speaker 3: it's a pretty tough feat to be able to cut

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Speaker 3: through a sheep's wool with standard scissors or shears or

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Speaker 3: something of that nature. It's not that easy. And all

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Speaker 3: of these were slit in a precise straight line from

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Speaker 3: the neck to the groin, and again there was no

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Speaker 3: blood within the corral, so it was very odd. There

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Speaker 3: was an obvious stinch in the air as you approached

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Speaker 3: a corral that was not normal. It was it. I

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Speaker 3: describe it similar to that of a petroleum smell, like

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Speaker 3: what you smell in the oil fields or something like that.

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Speaker 3: And it was just really odd and really nauseating smelling this,

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Speaker 3: And yeah, it was just a really odd case that

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Speaker 3: I investigated.

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Speaker 2: Yet, I mean, what what would have done that? You know,

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Speaker 2: the dogs should have heard something and that would have

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Speaker 2: blurted the people, but nobody heard anything. There's no blood

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Speaker 2: on the ground. Something carved these sheep up in that way.

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Speaker 2: What did they use to do it? How did they

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Speaker 2: do it without getting detected? What are your thoughts that?

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I've never seen anything like it, and I don't think

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Speaker 3: the bed and Aaron had ever seen anything like it either.

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Speaker 3: He was just kind of shocked by the whole thing

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Speaker 3: because typically when you do have livestock killed, you know

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Speaker 3: you're going to see the evidence of what killed. Either

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Speaker 3: you'll have bear tracks or mountain lion tracks in the soil.

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Speaker 3: And there was there was nothing like that to support

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Speaker 3: this particular caste. And the daughter was the middle aged

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Speaker 3: daughter was extremely upset because her parents were crying and

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Speaker 3: upset and she wanted answers, but we didn't. We didn't

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Speaker 3: have any answers. I mean, it didn't follow the normal

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Speaker 3: fill till signs that you have with predatory keels.

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Speaker 2: Well, gosh, I guess we would be upset. Number One,

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Speaker 2: that's an incredible investment for them. That's like they're life

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Speaker 2: savings in those sheep. And two whatever, did it could

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Speaker 2: come from people for people the next time?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's that's that's very possible. Did we didn't know

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Speaker 3: the source of what it is that caused this action?

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Speaker 2: So does that seem like it's comparable to cattle mutilation

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Speaker 2: cases that are elsewhere around the world? And did you

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Speaker 2: ever see anything like that elsewhere where on the Novajo Nation?

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Speaker 3: Well, there were lives thuff cattle mutilations. You know, I've

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Speaker 3: read and I had met with Linda molten how at times,

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Speaker 3: and the research she's done in regards to cattle mutilations,

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Speaker 3: it's very fascinating. And I do you know, in looking

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Speaker 3: at that particular case at that time, I think it

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Speaker 3: would fall under that particular umbrella of cattle mutilation.

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Speaker 2: One other question, no blood, but was anything taken out

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Speaker 2: of the animals, any organs or anything, or just sliced,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 3: I inquired that to the veterinarian, and to my knowledge,

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Speaker 3: there weren't. There weren't any internal organs that that were missing.

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Speaker 3: But because of the unknown, uh, something of that nature,

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Speaker 3: you're you don't nor know the source of this is,

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Speaker 3: is there is there some type of disease. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's kind of far fits as far as the disease involved,

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Speaker 3: but you don't. It's a big unknown, and you've got

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Speaker 3: to be really careful whatever cause the death of these animals,

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Speaker 3: You certainly don't want to be on the receiving end

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Speaker 3: of something like that, you know. So I think at

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Speaker 3: that time the there was a large trench that was

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Speaker 3: dug and the animals were disposed in there and and

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Speaker 3: and burned and then after they were in semon, you know,

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Speaker 3: burned up and they were covered up.

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Speaker 2: You know. So you mentioned earlier we touched on briefly

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Speaker 2: about the first call you went out with on with

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Speaker 2: John Dover is because these two other cops had sort

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Speaker 2: of sloughed off this lady's report about a bigfoot. You

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Speaker 2: guys go out there, take it seriously, you calm her down,

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Speaker 2: and you start investigating. Share with us what did you find, what,

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Speaker 2: if anything, you found.

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Speaker 3: Well, in those particular cases, a challenge is a lot

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Speaker 3: of times people will report these kind of incidents, let's say,

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Speaker 3: a siding of what people were commonly referred to as

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Speaker 3: a bigfoot or sasquatch. They may report it days later

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Speaker 3: and out here on the reservation because the arid environment,

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Speaker 3: you know, the evidence a lot of times that's left

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Speaker 3: is going to be degraded. In criminal investigation, when you

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Speaker 3: get let's say a homicide, do you want to get

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Speaker 3: there as soon as you can so you can start

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Speaker 3: documenting and collecting evidence before it degrades. And in this situation,

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Speaker 3: sometimes you would have somebody reporting an incident that may

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Speaker 3: have actually occurred months earlier or sometimes even years later.

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Speaker 3: You know, you would get to talking to them and

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Speaker 3: it actually occurred a year earlier or something like that,

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Speaker 3: which doesn't leave the investigator with any let's say, credible

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Speaker 3: evidence to be able to work with. So, yeah, it

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Speaker 3: can be a challenge.

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Speaker 2: Did you find tracks in that case? I think I

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Speaker 2: remember from that part of your book that you didn't

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Speaker 2: find any.

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Speaker 3: Tracks in that particular case. I know, in and around

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Speaker 3: the sheep Corral there was there was nothing tangible that

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Speaker 3: could be recorded in that as far as like being

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Speaker 3: able to cast something or photograph some type of tracks

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Speaker 3: or tractive.

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Speaker 2: You had a lot of other big foot cases though,

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Speaker 2: that you took seriously and you think there there are

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Speaker 2: indications that something really was going on. The smell definitely, right, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Definitely, there's you know, commonly in big foot cases there's

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Speaker 3: often associated a certain smell and over the years, you know,

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Speaker 3: I did experience that in some of these cases where

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Speaker 3: you have this odd wet dog smell. Sometimes it can

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Speaker 3: be more leaning more to a the foul odor involved

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Speaker 3: with like an eggs ful free eggs smell, and it

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Speaker 3: can be it can range to something that smells like

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Speaker 3: like something dead. And so yeah, there's there's often odors

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Speaker 3: that are they can be associated with those events.

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Speaker 2: And I know you did find tracks here and there,

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Speaker 2: you made tracks, so you know, people would think, all right, Bigfoot,

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Speaker 2: he's up in Washington, Oregon, up in the big trees.

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Speaker 2: What's he doing out there in Monument Valley or Novo Nation?

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Speaker 2: What do you say that right?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know the case that I mentioned earlier involving

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Speaker 3: the coin of Ports. Again, that phenomenon made me realize

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Speaker 3: that they're like with the coins, the coins had to

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Speaker 3: be materializing from somewhere else, from some other plane of existence.

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Speaker 3: They did I mean, I mean I witnessed the coins

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Speaker 3: fall out of thin air. And so if the points

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Speaker 3: the coins were traveling from point A to point B

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Speaker 3: to the floor of an office building there in winter up,

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Speaker 3: they had to originate from somewhere else. So I began

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Speaker 3: to look at this these different phenomena like like the Bigfoot,

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Speaker 3: like the UFOs, and realize that these things are coming

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Speaker 3: into existence into our physical world from some somewhere else.

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Speaker 3: And you know, John and I never followed this idea

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Speaker 3: that bigfoot were migrating from one location to another across

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Speaker 3: North North American continent or something like that. We lived

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Speaker 3: out in the woods and we didn't see the evidence

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Speaker 3: of that.

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Speaker 2: They just pop into our reality and then pop back

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Speaker 2: out exactly.

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Speaker 3: I think the witchcraft up the shape shifters to use

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Speaker 3: the same same technique and going in and out. I

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Speaker 3: think at times you're experiencing naturally occurring what people refer

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Speaker 3: to as vortics, where there's a crossing between one plane

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Speaker 3: of existence and to another. UFOs I feel do the

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Speaker 3: same kind of thing, but I think that's the commonalities

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Speaker 3: dimensions or you know what people referred to, there's dimensions.

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