1 00:00:04,078 --> 00:00:06,518 Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of My 2 00:00:06,718 --> 00:00:15,558 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome back to the Book of Joe podcasts. 3 00:00:15,678 --> 00:00:18,958 Speaker 1: If this is your first time or not your first time, 4 00:00:19,518 --> 00:00:23,278 Speaker 1: this podcast is based on our book, The Book of Joe. 5 00:00:23,318 --> 00:00:26,918 Speaker 1: I am Tom Berducci and welcome to Joe Madden. How 6 00:00:26,998 --> 00:00:29,878 Speaker 1: you doing, Joe. I'm doing wonderfully, um on the West 7 00:00:29,958 --> 00:00:32,358 Speaker 1: West Coast. I went from Arizona to Long Beach for 8 00:00:32,398 --> 00:00:34,598 Speaker 1: a couple of days, so hanging out here, playing some golf, 9 00:00:34,678 --> 00:00:36,798 Speaker 1: having a good time. You know, people who are not 10 00:00:36,998 --> 00:00:41,398 Speaker 1: familiar with our book shouldn't understand that the book does, 11 00:00:41,638 --> 00:00:43,838 Speaker 1: I think, And of course I'm biased a really good 12 00:00:43,918 --> 00:00:47,598 Speaker 1: job thanks to your experience, Joe, of bringing people into 13 00:00:47,718 --> 00:00:52,398 Speaker 1: the dugout and what life and the job of managing 14 00:00:52,638 --> 00:00:57,278 Speaker 1: really is like. And I wanted to dive into that today, Joe, 15 00:00:57,318 --> 00:01:01,078 Speaker 1: to take people into a major league dug out. And 16 00:01:01,158 --> 00:01:04,958 Speaker 1: let's start with the job of the bench coach. Okay, 17 00:01:04,958 --> 00:01:07,238 Speaker 1: there's been a lot of news recently about bench coaches. 18 00:01:07,278 --> 00:01:10,838 Speaker 1: By my count, there's been about nine or ten changes 19 00:01:10,918 --> 00:01:14,078 Speaker 1: in the bench coach position. Some of them are really interesting. 20 00:01:14,158 --> 00:01:18,758 Speaker 1: Don Mattingly, bench coach back in Toronto. How about that 21 00:01:18,918 --> 00:01:22,238 Speaker 1: Charlie Montoya, another four manager bench coach. Now with the 22 00:01:22,318 --> 00:01:24,918 Speaker 1: Chicago White Sox, you've got Eric Chavez, a lot of 23 00:01:24,918 --> 00:01:28,078 Speaker 1: people think might be a manager someday elevated the bench coach, 24 00:01:28,238 --> 00:01:32,678 Speaker 1: Buck Showalter in New York, Will Venable in Texas. Not 25 00:01:32,798 --> 00:01:35,118 Speaker 1: just the bench coach. How about this Joe His title 26 00:01:35,278 --> 00:01:40,838 Speaker 1: is associate manager. Bruce Bocci with the Rangers. You've been around, 27 00:01:40,878 --> 00:01:44,358 Speaker 1: you've had bench coaches. Give a thumbnail sketch of as 28 00:01:44,358 --> 00:01:47,158 Speaker 1: a manager. What do you want from a bench coach? 29 00:01:47,638 --> 00:01:49,918 Speaker 1: First of all, I know all those guys. That's very interesting, 30 00:01:50,118 --> 00:01:53,238 Speaker 1: um that it's becoming in a way more prominent. I 31 00:01:53,238 --> 00:01:55,078 Speaker 1: think a part of what you're talking about there might 32 00:01:55,078 --> 00:01:57,558 Speaker 1: be with the less experience manager, except for like Boach. 33 00:01:57,638 --> 00:02:00,838 Speaker 1: But nevertheless, you're you're always wanting somebody there to what 34 00:02:01,158 --> 00:02:03,398 Speaker 1: it seems to be the mantra these days is to 35 00:02:03,478 --> 00:02:05,718 Speaker 1: get some he in there to help an inexperienced guy, 36 00:02:05,798 --> 00:02:08,798 Speaker 1: the the new manager, and and Toronto the new guy 37 00:02:08,798 --> 00:02:11,718 Speaker 1: in Chicago, et cetera. So I think that's part of 38 00:02:11,718 --> 00:02:13,798 Speaker 1: what people view it as. But for me, it's a 39 00:02:13,878 --> 00:02:15,838 Speaker 1: little bit more in depth. And I'm gonna go back 40 00:02:15,878 --> 00:02:18,398 Speaker 1: to the mid nineties when I became one bench coach. 41 00:02:18,518 --> 00:02:20,718 Speaker 1: Marcel Lachman asked me to be the bench coach after 42 00:02:20,798 --> 00:02:23,598 Speaker 1: the ninety five season where Bobby Cannop had been that 43 00:02:23,758 --> 00:02:26,198 Speaker 1: and I was like really reticent. I said, listen, I 44 00:02:26,238 --> 00:02:28,998 Speaker 1: am not taking an operates spot. I hope Bobby can 45 00:02:29,038 --> 00:02:31,398 Speaker 1: up with such reverence, but he Marcell wanted me to 46 00:02:31,438 --> 00:02:35,398 Speaker 1: do this particular job, so eventually did starting in six Now, 47 00:02:35,598 --> 00:02:38,198 Speaker 1: at that time, it was no there was no definition 48 00:02:38,358 --> 00:02:40,958 Speaker 1: that there was no template for what a bench coach does. 49 00:02:40,998 --> 00:02:43,958 Speaker 1: So honestly I went out and set out and created 50 00:02:43,998 --> 00:02:46,278 Speaker 1: this position on my own. What it was for me 51 00:02:46,518 --> 00:02:49,598 Speaker 1: was the organizer of the day, the man that permits 52 00:02:49,598 --> 00:02:52,518 Speaker 1: the manager to intellectualize the day and not have to 53 00:02:52,558 --> 00:02:54,878 Speaker 1: deal with them. And you tell the stuff that occurs, 54 00:02:55,318 --> 00:02:57,718 Speaker 1: keep it off his plate, keep him insulated from all 55 00:02:57,798 --> 00:03:00,358 Speaker 1: this until it's absolutely necessary to bring him in. So 56 00:03:00,398 --> 00:03:04,358 Speaker 1: why was the I created this method of the daily scheduling. 57 00:03:04,558 --> 00:03:08,718 Speaker 1: I created my own methods regarding scouting and accumulating information 58 00:03:08,718 --> 00:03:10,878 Speaker 1: and dad at that time, and putting it together and 59 00:03:10,918 --> 00:03:13,118 Speaker 1: then presenting to the group. I used to get all 60 00:03:13,158 --> 00:03:15,518 Speaker 1: my sheets and I would literally paste them on the 61 00:03:15,518 --> 00:03:17,558 Speaker 1: wall and the dug up for just quick review for 62 00:03:17,638 --> 00:03:20,038 Speaker 1: the manager anybody that wanted to look at it. So 63 00:03:20,358 --> 00:03:22,518 Speaker 1: at that time in the in the mid nineties, it 64 00:03:22,598 --> 00:03:25,398 Speaker 1: was really wide open for interpretation. What does the bench 65 00:03:25,438 --> 00:03:27,558 Speaker 1: coach do? At that point, I thought Don Zimmer was 66 00:03:27,598 --> 00:03:30,078 Speaker 1: the premier bench coach because he was Zim, and I 67 00:03:30,118 --> 00:03:32,118 Speaker 1: think I was right about that. But Jim did not 68 00:03:32,158 --> 00:03:34,598 Speaker 1: do all these things that I'm talking about. Zim was 69 00:03:34,918 --> 00:03:37,758 Speaker 1: more of a strategist and on a confidant and the 70 00:03:37,758 --> 00:03:40,638 Speaker 1: guy that could really help Joe Tory at that particular 71 00:03:40,678 --> 00:03:43,198 Speaker 1: moment with different Yeah, let me stop you there, Joe, 72 00:03:43,278 --> 00:03:46,078 Speaker 1: because I was gonna say Zim sort of redefined it 73 00:03:46,398 --> 00:03:49,798 Speaker 1: as a strategic job. And I remember Joe Tory talking 74 00:03:49,838 --> 00:03:52,398 Speaker 1: about there were many times where Zim would get in 75 00:03:52,438 --> 00:03:54,398 Speaker 1: his ear and just give him an idea that maybe 76 00:03:54,438 --> 00:03:56,878 Speaker 1: he hadn't thought of. Hey maybe hit and run right here, 77 00:03:56,958 --> 00:03:59,278 Speaker 1: Hey maybe get this guy up in the bullpen. Didn't 78 00:03:59,318 --> 00:04:02,838 Speaker 1: always follow Don Zimmer, but he would create that thought 79 00:04:02,918 --> 00:04:05,078 Speaker 1: in his mind that hey, I hadn't thought about that. 80 00:04:05,078 --> 00:04:07,518 Speaker 1: That's actually pretty good. Did you do that with the 81 00:04:07,558 --> 00:04:10,678 Speaker 1: Angels in game as a bench coach? Yeah? I did. 82 00:04:10,798 --> 00:04:12,558 Speaker 1: And you know there's a lot of trust involved with 83 00:04:12,678 --> 00:04:15,278 Speaker 1: something like that. I don't know that again, I think 84 00:04:15,758 --> 00:04:17,638 Speaker 1: jumping around, but the guys that are coming in as 85 00:04:17,678 --> 00:04:19,878 Speaker 1: bench coach now might be asked to do those kind 86 00:04:19,918 --> 00:04:22,358 Speaker 1: of things with some younger managers. But I don't think 87 00:04:22,358 --> 00:04:25,158 Speaker 1: Buck show Walter necessarily needs I don't think Bruce Bocci 88 00:04:25,278 --> 00:04:28,478 Speaker 1: necessarily needs that. And I know Joe was very experienced, 89 00:04:28,518 --> 00:04:31,198 Speaker 1: but you've got Don Zimmer. That's a different level of 90 00:04:31,278 --> 00:04:33,478 Speaker 1: voicing your ear kind of a stuff. And when it 91 00:04:33,518 --> 00:04:37,078 Speaker 1: comes to that, I was always um aware of the 92 00:04:37,118 --> 00:04:39,798 Speaker 1: fact that any kind of suggestion I might make, if 93 00:04:39,838 --> 00:04:42,038 Speaker 1: it did go a ride, the manager has to answer 94 00:04:42,078 --> 00:04:44,238 Speaker 1: for it post game. So you're always I mean, in 95 00:04:44,278 --> 00:04:47,078 Speaker 1: my mind's eye, was very uh. If I was absolutely 96 00:04:47,118 --> 00:04:49,038 Speaker 1: certain with what I was saying or thinking, I would 97 00:04:49,078 --> 00:04:51,318 Speaker 1: throw it out there. Otherwise I might have kept it 98 00:04:51,358 --> 00:04:54,038 Speaker 1: to myself. And but beyond all that, at that time 99 00:04:54,078 --> 00:04:56,598 Speaker 1: we talked about this design stealing component. I was the 100 00:04:56,638 --> 00:04:59,798 Speaker 1: bench coach, Fredo Griffin is at first and Ron Rennicki's 101 00:04:59,838 --> 00:05:01,958 Speaker 1: at third base. We kind of triangulated things where we 102 00:05:01,998 --> 00:05:05,998 Speaker 1: would get signs from benches and we knew where the 103 00:05:05,998 --> 00:05:08,078 Speaker 1: signs were coming from, whether it was the bench coach, 104 00:05:08,238 --> 00:05:11,038 Speaker 1: possibly the manager, and even with Tony LaRussa, Tony used 105 00:05:11,038 --> 00:05:13,678 Speaker 1: to have somebody in the dugout just away from him, 106 00:05:13,918 --> 00:05:17,638 Speaker 1: very casually giving a sign, maybe a towel over the railing, 107 00:05:17,718 --> 00:05:20,758 Speaker 1: maybe the way he stood, scratching, whatever it might be. 108 00:05:21,038 --> 00:05:23,038 Speaker 1: So you're always aware of this. And when we were 109 00:05:23,078 --> 00:05:26,318 Speaker 1: able to figure things out, Ronnie Primo and I, Ronnie 110 00:05:26,318 --> 00:05:28,518 Speaker 1: would then be able to transfer to the base runners 111 00:05:28,558 --> 00:05:31,038 Speaker 1: as an example, and it was really beneficial to us. 112 00:05:31,078 --> 00:05:33,478 Speaker 1: So that's what I did a lot of that as 113 00:05:33,478 --> 00:05:35,758 Speaker 1: a bench coach. It really comes down to how much 114 00:05:35,798 --> 00:05:37,998 Speaker 1: can you handle in the day in a game, and 115 00:05:37,998 --> 00:05:40,678 Speaker 1: and how much focus can you apply And you can't 116 00:05:40,878 --> 00:05:43,358 Speaker 1: watch the ball. I mean a big part of me 117 00:05:43,398 --> 00:05:45,438 Speaker 1: as a bench coach was I didn't watch the ball. 118 00:05:45,718 --> 00:05:48,358 Speaker 1: You're looking at anything but the ball in a situation, 119 00:05:48,438 --> 00:05:50,598 Speaker 1: just trying to figure out different things. I tried to 120 00:05:50,638 --> 00:05:53,278 Speaker 1: figure out RiPP and given signs to the catcher when 121 00:05:53,278 --> 00:05:55,758 Speaker 1: I was the first base coach. I would just constantly 122 00:05:55,758 --> 00:05:57,558 Speaker 1: look at him prior to the pitch to see if 123 00:05:57,558 --> 00:06:00,078 Speaker 1: he could discernain anything that he was known because Cal 124 00:06:00,238 --> 00:06:02,638 Speaker 1: was giving the signs. And I think a Rod attempted 125 00:06:02,678 --> 00:06:04,118 Speaker 1: to do that at one point with the rain. You're 126 00:06:04,198 --> 00:06:07,118 Speaker 1: so as a bench coach for me, you shouldn't follow 127 00:06:07,118 --> 00:06:10,318 Speaker 1: the ball. You have all these other duties to perform. 128 00:06:10,598 --> 00:06:13,478 Speaker 1: And you are a confidant. You are a trusted advisor 129 00:06:13,518 --> 00:06:15,318 Speaker 1: to the manager. But be careful with that because the 130 00:06:15,398 --> 00:06:17,798 Speaker 1: dude has to answer after the game. And like I said, 131 00:06:17,838 --> 00:06:20,758 Speaker 1: if I was really out a strong feeling about something, 132 00:06:20,758 --> 00:06:23,358 Speaker 1: I would just really let it rip. Otherwise I might 133 00:06:23,358 --> 00:06:26,518 Speaker 1: be more reticent. Did you ever crack Cal's code? I 134 00:06:26,558 --> 00:06:29,078 Speaker 1: thought I did, But he he was so bright, and he, 135 00:06:29,158 --> 00:06:30,638 Speaker 1: like I said, I might have told you this before. 136 00:06:30,638 --> 00:06:32,838 Speaker 1: He would either put his arms over his head. He 137 00:06:32,878 --> 00:06:34,918 Speaker 1: would chew on the had a little bit of a 138 00:06:34,958 --> 00:06:37,238 Speaker 1: string coming got the end of his glove like a 139 00:06:37,278 --> 00:06:39,718 Speaker 1: tug tug on that he would with his teeth. He 140 00:06:39,758 --> 00:06:42,758 Speaker 1: would kick his foot right and left in front of him. 141 00:06:42,918 --> 00:06:44,758 Speaker 1: He would look to his right and look to his left. 142 00:06:44,758 --> 00:06:47,038 Speaker 1: He had all these little things, And I even got 143 00:06:47,038 --> 00:06:49,278 Speaker 1: to the point I thought maybe he changed them based 144 00:06:49,318 --> 00:06:51,278 Speaker 1: on even or odd innings, things like that. So it 145 00:06:51,358 --> 00:06:54,398 Speaker 1: was it was almost impossible. I mean, it really requires 146 00:06:54,758 --> 00:06:58,678 Speaker 1: a lot of focus from you. And the biggest thing 147 00:06:58,718 --> 00:07:00,918 Speaker 1: for me was getting third base coaches signs, and I 148 00:07:00,918 --> 00:07:02,878 Speaker 1: think I mentioned you also that in the late nineties 149 00:07:02,878 --> 00:07:04,758 Speaker 1: I was pretty good at that and we did pitch 150 00:07:04,798 --> 00:07:08,118 Speaker 1: out well based on stuff. And but even think about it, 151 00:07:08,158 --> 00:07:10,638 Speaker 1: at that time, teams try to do things right. Now, 152 00:07:10,678 --> 00:07:13,478 Speaker 1: it's hard to get signs because nobody does anything. There's 153 00:07:13,518 --> 00:07:16,038 Speaker 1: there's no signs to be had. Nobody is hit and running. 154 00:07:16,038 --> 00:07:19,198 Speaker 1: Steals are primarily guys having the green light and going 155 00:07:19,318 --> 00:07:20,838 Speaker 1: on their own. And then you're trying to read the 156 00:07:20,918 --> 00:07:22,918 Speaker 1: runner if he looks like he might be leaning or 157 00:07:22,958 --> 00:07:26,238 Speaker 1: not leaning. And for me, the toughest guy to really 158 00:07:26,358 --> 00:07:28,278 Speaker 1: discern it first base when he's going to go or 159 00:07:28,318 --> 00:07:30,038 Speaker 1: not as the guy that never looks the same. In 160 00:07:30,118 --> 00:07:32,478 Speaker 1: other words, you don't know. He might be leaning one time, 161 00:07:32,518 --> 00:07:34,318 Speaker 1: he might be straight up one time, he might be 162 00:07:34,358 --> 00:07:36,558 Speaker 1: fidgety one time, but he never looks the same, and 163 00:07:36,598 --> 00:07:38,198 Speaker 1: he's the hard guy to read as opposed to the 164 00:07:38,198 --> 00:07:40,958 Speaker 1: guy that absolutely has two different methods. This is what 165 00:07:40,998 --> 00:07:42,878 Speaker 1: I look like when I'm not going, and this is 166 00:07:42,878 --> 00:07:44,958 Speaker 1: what I looked like when I am going. So these 167 00:07:44,958 --> 00:07:46,758 Speaker 1: are the kind of things I was locked into as 168 00:07:46,798 --> 00:07:49,758 Speaker 1: the bench coach, and um I had a great time 169 00:07:49,798 --> 00:07:52,078 Speaker 1: with it. But as a manager. It's hard for me 170 00:07:52,158 --> 00:07:55,798 Speaker 1: to do those things because I'm focus is in other areas. Yeah, 171 00:07:55,918 --> 00:07:57,438 Speaker 1: let me get to that. By the way, I should 172 00:07:57,438 --> 00:08:01,718 Speaker 1: have mentioned too. Matt Holiday, the bench coach for Ali Marmal, 173 00:08:01,838 --> 00:08:04,078 Speaker 1: second year manager with the Cardinals. I thought Ali did 174 00:08:04,118 --> 00:08:06,278 Speaker 1: a great job last year in his first Major League 175 00:08:06,318 --> 00:08:09,718 Speaker 1: managing gig and now he's got met Holiday beside him. So, Joe, 176 00:08:09,998 --> 00:08:12,718 Speaker 1: you've had a few different bench coaches. What did you 177 00:08:12,878 --> 00:08:17,878 Speaker 1: want from your bench coaches? I wanted them to be fearless. 178 00:08:17,998 --> 00:08:20,838 Speaker 1: I wanted them to have tough conversations. I wanted them to, 179 00:08:21,438 --> 00:08:23,878 Speaker 1: like I said, deflect things that may have to get 180 00:08:23,918 --> 00:08:25,838 Speaker 1: to me. And I think that's what I did for 181 00:08:25,998 --> 00:08:29,278 Speaker 1: Marcel and through Terry and soach for so many years. 182 00:08:29,838 --> 00:08:32,958 Speaker 1: You try to put out the little um forest fire, 183 00:08:32,998 --> 00:08:35,198 Speaker 1: little campfires like not a forest fire, you don't ever 184 00:08:35,238 --> 00:08:36,958 Speaker 1: wanted to get to that point, but the little campfires. 185 00:08:36,958 --> 00:08:39,278 Speaker 1: You want to put him out before they become uh, 186 00:08:39,838 --> 00:08:42,398 Speaker 1: they start blazing even heavier. Um. So that's what I 187 00:08:42,438 --> 00:08:44,278 Speaker 1: would do, and that's what I want my bench coach 188 00:08:44,318 --> 00:08:47,078 Speaker 1: to do. So he can't be afraid of a difficult conversation. 189 00:08:47,318 --> 00:08:49,718 Speaker 1: He has to deal with it. Head on. He has 190 00:08:49,758 --> 00:08:51,798 Speaker 1: to try to nip it in the bud before it 191 00:08:51,798 --> 00:08:54,758 Speaker 1: gets anymore deeply embedded within the group, and then it 192 00:08:54,838 --> 00:08:57,198 Speaker 1: then possibly might have come to me. So that's number one. 193 00:08:57,318 --> 00:09:00,678 Speaker 1: After that, the organizational component love that he does the 194 00:09:00,758 --> 00:09:05,038 Speaker 1: schedule the way he's able to get it across the players. 195 00:09:05,078 --> 00:09:07,158 Speaker 1: And you could see when a when a group really 196 00:09:07,198 --> 00:09:09,438 Speaker 1: respects a bench coach. I think there is a certain 197 00:09:09,518 --> 00:09:11,918 Speaker 1: level of humor, there's a certain level of toughness involved 198 00:09:11,918 --> 00:09:15,198 Speaker 1: with that, and when you get that guy, it becomes 199 00:09:15,278 --> 00:09:17,798 Speaker 1: very beneficial for me in the game. I needed that 200 00:09:17,838 --> 00:09:20,118 Speaker 1: guy to to truly get guys ready. That's what a 201 00:09:20,118 --> 00:09:23,198 Speaker 1: bench coach does for me. Like I didn't necessarily need 202 00:09:23,278 --> 00:09:25,478 Speaker 1: somebody to advise me during the game, as much as 203 00:09:25,518 --> 00:09:27,718 Speaker 1: I needed them to listen to me. And because I 204 00:09:27,798 --> 00:09:30,598 Speaker 1: unless I get so quiet and absorbed in the moment 205 00:09:30,798 --> 00:09:32,678 Speaker 1: that even if you said something to me, I might 206 00:09:32,718 --> 00:09:34,598 Speaker 1: not always hear it. But if I needed you to 207 00:09:34,638 --> 00:09:36,758 Speaker 1: get hitters ready or an extra player ready, or a 208 00:09:36,758 --> 00:09:39,518 Speaker 1: pinch runner ready, I needed that to be done and 209 00:09:39,678 --> 00:09:41,318 Speaker 1: know that it was going to get done. And then 210 00:09:41,318 --> 00:09:44,238 Speaker 1: the better guys like Davy would read me, Hider would 211 00:09:44,278 --> 00:09:46,318 Speaker 1: read me all these guys that I had for a 212 00:09:46,358 --> 00:09:48,558 Speaker 1: while would start reading me and they'd be able to 213 00:09:48,598 --> 00:09:51,358 Speaker 1: have this done in advance. So that's what you want. 214 00:09:51,438 --> 00:09:54,918 Speaker 1: It's a it's a guy that's fearless, has tough conversations, 215 00:09:55,318 --> 00:09:57,318 Speaker 1: is on top of the thoughts during and during the 216 00:09:57,358 --> 00:09:59,478 Speaker 1: course of the game, and you know if you ask 217 00:09:59,558 --> 00:10:02,398 Speaker 1: for something, it's going to get done without question. By 218 00:10:02,398 --> 00:10:04,758 Speaker 1: the way, I do remember when you were bench coach 219 00:10:04,838 --> 00:10:07,678 Speaker 1: with the Angels, the lineup cards you posted in the dugout, 220 00:10:07,998 --> 00:10:11,038 Speaker 1: very clean Joe and always a quote of the day 221 00:10:11,038 --> 00:10:12,558 Speaker 1: on that. I thought that was cool. That was one 222 00:10:12,558 --> 00:10:14,158 Speaker 1: of the first times I saw that. But I gotta 223 00:10:14,198 --> 00:10:19,118 Speaker 1: tell you the best lineup cards in the business. Ryan Christensen, 224 00:10:19,358 --> 00:10:23,718 Speaker 1: San Diego, Padres bench coach. These things are works of art, 225 00:10:23,798 --> 00:10:27,118 Speaker 1: he told me. It takes some half hour to put 226 00:10:27,158 --> 00:10:30,478 Speaker 1: it together, and their different styles. I mean, it will 227 00:10:30,518 --> 00:10:34,598 Speaker 1: be calligraphy, it'll be kind of graffiti style. It's amazing. 228 00:10:34,718 --> 00:10:37,358 Speaker 1: You would swore it's a piece of art. It's a 229 00:10:37,398 --> 00:10:40,198 Speaker 1: lineup card. He posted the dugout and it takes him 230 00:10:40,198 --> 00:10:42,678 Speaker 1: a half hour. It's a beautiful thing. And I asked 231 00:10:42,718 --> 00:10:45,678 Speaker 1: him why he does it. Obviously he enjoys doing it, 232 00:10:45,718 --> 00:10:48,998 Speaker 1: but he also anticipates that maybe somebody's going to have 233 00:10:49,038 --> 00:10:51,878 Speaker 1: the game of their life that day and that lineup 234 00:10:51,878 --> 00:10:55,038 Speaker 1: card will look great in a frame on their wall. 235 00:10:55,478 --> 00:10:57,958 Speaker 1: I love that. That's outstanding. I Mean, the biggest thing 236 00:10:57,998 --> 00:11:00,758 Speaker 1: I did too with mine was I always wanted different 237 00:11:00,798 --> 00:11:03,118 Speaker 1: handedness in different colors. I was if you were a 238 00:11:03,238 --> 00:11:04,678 Speaker 1: right hand that you were in black, if you were 239 00:11:05,118 --> 00:11:07,038 Speaker 1: left handing roo in blue, and if you were switching, 240 00:11:07,158 --> 00:11:09,238 Speaker 1: or you were in red. And I'm so visual and 241 00:11:09,278 --> 00:11:11,078 Speaker 1: if I could look at a sheet with the line 242 00:11:11,158 --> 00:11:13,398 Speaker 1: upon it that way, it's so much easier for me 243 00:11:13,438 --> 00:11:16,318 Speaker 1: to react in the moment based on colors. Very cool. Hey, 244 00:11:16,398 --> 00:11:19,278 Speaker 1: quick break here. When we get back, the catching market 245 00:11:19,598 --> 00:11:23,478 Speaker 1: has heated up. We'll dive into Joe Madden's favorite position 246 00:11:23,798 --> 00:11:35,078 Speaker 1: right after this. Welcome back. Well, Joe Madden, you're a 247 00:11:35,118 --> 00:11:38,838 Speaker 1: former catcher and you've noticed and recently a lot of 248 00:11:38,878 --> 00:11:42,158 Speaker 1: movement in the catching market. Wilson Contreras you had with 249 00:11:42,198 --> 00:11:44,918 Speaker 1: the Cubs, goes to the Cardinals on a five year deal, 250 00:11:44,958 --> 00:11:47,078 Speaker 1: and then of course that three way deal in which 251 00:11:47,078 --> 00:11:50,158 Speaker 1: Sean Murphy winds up in Atlanta and Wilson Contrares, his 252 00:11:50,238 --> 00:11:53,238 Speaker 1: brother William winds up in Milwaukee, Manny Pina out in 253 00:11:53,398 --> 00:11:57,238 Speaker 1: Oakland catching position. Let's face it, Joe, these days offensively, 254 00:11:57,998 --> 00:12:00,918 Speaker 1: not a lot of big, big time offensive players. But 255 00:12:01,078 --> 00:12:03,838 Speaker 1: Sean Murphy is a guy I really like. The Cardon 256 00:12:03,998 --> 00:12:06,078 Speaker 1: was were interested in Murphy, but the price to get 257 00:12:06,158 --> 00:12:08,078 Speaker 1: him in a trade too high, so they wound up 258 00:12:08,118 --> 00:12:10,918 Speaker 1: with Wilson Contreras. Now you've seen his growth, and I 259 00:12:11,398 --> 00:12:13,398 Speaker 1: know a lot of people have knocked him for his 260 00:12:13,518 --> 00:12:16,198 Speaker 1: receiving skills behind the plate. Tell me what you think 261 00:12:16,198 --> 00:12:19,198 Speaker 1: the Cardinals got in catreris can. Even before I get 262 00:12:19,198 --> 00:12:20,558 Speaker 1: to that, I just want to point out one thing. 263 00:12:20,598 --> 00:12:22,878 Speaker 1: For years, as a young scout, I always thought this, 264 00:12:23,278 --> 00:12:26,518 Speaker 1: there's the five most important and difficult positions to find 265 00:12:26,558 --> 00:12:29,398 Speaker 1: in all of sport. Number one ad quarterback. Number two. 266 00:12:29,438 --> 00:12:32,198 Speaker 1: I had Catcher number three at center in basketball, which 267 00:12:32,238 --> 00:12:34,078 Speaker 1: was really prominent at that time. Then I had d 268 00:12:34,318 --> 00:12:36,598 Speaker 1: H to really get a settled in d H that 269 00:12:36,638 --> 00:12:39,518 Speaker 1: he was productive and finally a left handed bullpen specialist. 270 00:12:39,598 --> 00:12:42,038 Speaker 1: Now that's pretty much gone away. But I had Catcher 271 00:12:42,038 --> 00:12:43,798 Speaker 1: at number two, which I thought was a lot like 272 00:12:43,838 --> 00:12:46,398 Speaker 1: the quarterback I always wanted to know, try to figure out, 273 00:12:46,478 --> 00:12:48,558 Speaker 1: is it like the quarterback, but the catcher is actually 274 00:12:48,598 --> 00:12:51,198 Speaker 1: on defense. So maybe it's the middle linebacker, but always 275 00:12:51,238 --> 00:12:53,918 Speaker 1: the five most difficult and even right now we're talking 276 00:12:53,998 --> 00:12:55,998 Speaker 1: about this, but even back then, it was hard to 277 00:12:55,998 --> 00:12:59,158 Speaker 1: find that catcher that you love both offensively and defensively. 278 00:12:59,158 --> 00:13:01,198 Speaker 1: In a lot of teams settled for the defense at 279 00:13:01,198 --> 00:13:05,038 Speaker 1: that particular junction of baseball. So it's evolved at the 280 00:13:05,038 --> 00:13:07,398 Speaker 1: point now yea, everybody's looking for more offense. And yes, 281 00:13:07,398 --> 00:13:09,958 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to find these guys. Um a lot 282 00:13:09,958 --> 00:13:12,238 Speaker 1: of guys I don't think coming out of school, high 283 00:13:12,278 --> 00:13:14,798 Speaker 1: school or college really want to be a catch. It's 284 00:13:14,798 --> 00:13:17,158 Speaker 1: a tough position and when you're asked to play that 285 00:13:17,278 --> 00:13:19,598 Speaker 1: often and asked to do all the different things including 286 00:13:19,638 --> 00:13:22,238 Speaker 1: getting hit a lot, you know, get foul tips all 287 00:13:22,238 --> 00:13:24,438 Speaker 1: the time, you're black and blue all the time, you 288 00:13:24,518 --> 00:13:27,278 Speaker 1: wake up, you're not all the time. It's it's it's 289 00:13:27,318 --> 00:13:30,398 Speaker 1: a hard position to play, and I do appreciate those 290 00:13:30,438 --> 00:13:32,558 Speaker 1: that can. My favorite as a kid was Jerry Grody, 291 00:13:32,678 --> 00:13:34,598 Speaker 1: along with Bench and all those guys, but Jerry Growdy 292 00:13:34,638 --> 00:13:37,158 Speaker 1: did me handling that met staff was always my favorite. 293 00:13:37,198 --> 00:13:40,078 Speaker 1: I love the way block balls all the way through etcetera. Joe, 294 00:13:40,118 --> 00:13:43,318 Speaker 1: you know, he was an ordinary dude too, Jerry Grody, 295 00:13:43,638 --> 00:13:45,438 Speaker 1: bite your head off. And by the way, he used 296 00:13:45,478 --> 00:13:48,798 Speaker 1: to roll the ball back on the opposite side of 297 00:13:48,838 --> 00:13:51,198 Speaker 1: the field from the other team's dug out just to 298 00:13:51,238 --> 00:13:53,598 Speaker 1: make the picture take four or five extra steps. That's 299 00:13:53,638 --> 00:13:55,518 Speaker 1: what kind of dude he was. Don't mess with him. 300 00:13:55,598 --> 00:13:57,518 Speaker 1: He used to throw brock out off into and I 301 00:13:57,638 --> 00:13:59,918 Speaker 1: remember reading about that. But I I've always was a 302 00:13:59,958 --> 00:14:02,558 Speaker 1: big fan of Jerry Growdy because I was living in Pennsylvania, 303 00:14:02,638 --> 00:14:04,918 Speaker 1: got all the met games. But yeah, so all these 304 00:14:04,958 --> 00:14:08,478 Speaker 1: different things are part of my thought process when you're 305 00:14:08,478 --> 00:14:11,678 Speaker 1: talking about catchers. Now Wilson. Wilson really grew I thought. 306 00:14:11,718 --> 00:14:13,438 Speaker 1: I know he did with with the Cubs, and a 307 00:14:13,638 --> 00:14:16,238 Speaker 1: big part of his development was his work ethic and 308 00:14:16,278 --> 00:14:19,238 Speaker 1: who he is. Tough guy, really a tough guy. And 309 00:14:19,278 --> 00:14:21,798 Speaker 1: then Mike Borzella was another big part of that. Boors 310 00:14:22,078 --> 00:14:24,798 Speaker 1: Um he was the game planner back everybody was also 311 00:14:24,958 --> 00:14:28,558 Speaker 1: the catching coach. And their their relationship really I watched 312 00:14:28,598 --> 00:14:30,918 Speaker 1: it bloom over the years and I thought they benefited 313 00:14:30,918 --> 00:14:34,078 Speaker 1: each other really well. But Boors he benefited Wilson how 314 00:14:34,358 --> 00:14:37,478 Speaker 1: he did definitely helped him with his just receiving, etcetera. 315 00:14:37,558 --> 00:14:41,318 Speaker 1: As a catcher, but game calling and how to handle pitchers, etcetera. 316 00:14:41,358 --> 00:14:43,438 Speaker 1: And that's where Wilson really needed to grow. A lot 317 00:14:43,478 --> 00:14:46,038 Speaker 1: of these guys catchers, I've had catchers that are really 318 00:14:46,038 --> 00:14:49,078 Speaker 1: a little bit more offensive oriented internally, and to really 319 00:14:49,358 --> 00:14:51,878 Speaker 1: have your pitching staff buy into you, you can't. You 320 00:14:51,918 --> 00:14:53,958 Speaker 1: have to really show to them that they are number 321 00:14:53,998 --> 00:14:56,558 Speaker 1: one in your offenses number two. I've seen some pretty 322 00:14:56,598 --> 00:14:59,758 Speaker 1: good catchers that I mean from the pitching staff perspective, 323 00:15:00,038 --> 00:15:02,438 Speaker 1: may have been a little bit more worried about themselves 324 00:15:02,638 --> 00:15:05,678 Speaker 1: and not enough about them. And when you as a catcher, 325 00:15:05,718 --> 00:15:08,158 Speaker 1: have your whole staff buy into you because they know 326 00:15:08,478 --> 00:15:11,638 Speaker 1: that you are there for them first. You really need 327 00:15:11,678 --> 00:15:14,078 Speaker 1: to establish that within the group to to get to 328 00:15:14,158 --> 00:15:17,918 Speaker 1: that championship caliber of playing that position, because the pictures 329 00:15:17,958 --> 00:15:20,318 Speaker 1: do need you daily and they need you to not 330 00:15:20,398 --> 00:15:22,438 Speaker 1: be impacted by a bad at bat or a bad 331 00:15:22,478 --> 00:15:25,518 Speaker 1: couple of days or whatever. And I think that's where 332 00:15:25,518 --> 00:15:28,158 Speaker 1: bore As he really helped Wilson grow because even as 333 00:15:28,198 --> 00:15:29,918 Speaker 1: a young catcher, and Wilson still is a very good 334 00:15:29,918 --> 00:15:32,878 Speaker 1: offensive player, but I thought he grew a lot as 335 00:15:32,918 --> 00:15:36,438 Speaker 1: a defensive guy, really worrying and caring about his pitching 336 00:15:36,478 --> 00:15:39,238 Speaker 1: staff even more as I was with him longer. So 337 00:15:39,278 --> 00:15:41,558 Speaker 1: I think that's that's part of it that's not spoken 338 00:15:41,598 --> 00:15:44,678 Speaker 1: about enough. But if you ask any picture worth his salt, 339 00:15:44,878 --> 00:15:47,758 Speaker 1: he will want that catcher that will do anything for 340 00:15:47,838 --> 00:15:51,798 Speaker 1: him first and then worry about himself secondarily. And that's 341 00:15:51,838 --> 00:15:54,718 Speaker 1: the way it needs to work. And the highest praise 342 00:15:54,758 --> 00:15:58,718 Speaker 1: a catcher can receive is when a picture says, to anybody, 343 00:15:58,758 --> 00:16:00,878 Speaker 1: I really like throwing to this guy, I want him 344 00:16:00,878 --> 00:16:03,518 Speaker 1: to catch me. When that comes out of a picture's mouth, 345 00:16:03,598 --> 00:16:07,678 Speaker 1: you know you've really arrived. That's potentially a championship calibery catcher. Well, 346 00:16:07,718 --> 00:16:11,398 Speaker 1: apparently John Lester gave that scattering report on Wilson Contreras 347 00:16:11,438 --> 00:16:13,078 Speaker 1: to the Cardinals and it went a long way in 348 00:16:13,118 --> 00:16:15,638 Speaker 1: their decision to sign him to that free agent contract. 349 00:16:15,678 --> 00:16:17,918 Speaker 1: As for that three way deal, I think to me, 350 00:16:18,038 --> 00:16:21,438 Speaker 1: the Brewers were a clear winner getting Wilson's brother, William, 351 00:16:21,638 --> 00:16:24,598 Speaker 1: twenty five years old with a big bat. I think 352 00:16:24,598 --> 00:16:27,518 Speaker 1: he's going to get better as a receiver. But essentially 353 00:16:27,558 --> 00:16:30,558 Speaker 1: they gave up an outfielder who's not yet in the 354 00:16:30,558 --> 00:16:33,598 Speaker 1: big leagues, maybe as a fourth outfielder three years older, 355 00:16:33,598 --> 00:16:36,318 Speaker 1: and they wind up with a young, controllable catcher with 356 00:16:36,358 --> 00:16:39,878 Speaker 1: a big upside offensively. Braves did well getting Seawan Murphy, 357 00:16:40,078 --> 00:16:43,078 Speaker 1: I think after real Munto and Rushman maybe one of 358 00:16:43,118 --> 00:16:45,278 Speaker 1: the best all around catchers in the game. Get him 359 00:16:45,278 --> 00:16:47,638 Speaker 1: locked up for to three years, and Oakland just needed 360 00:16:47,678 --> 00:16:50,198 Speaker 1: to make a deal to get really quantity. Just that 361 00:16:50,318 --> 00:16:52,678 Speaker 1: they need a lot of good young players to help 362 00:16:52,758 --> 00:16:56,838 Speaker 1: revitalize that franchise, so they weren't fixated on quality, but 363 00:16:56,878 --> 00:17:00,438 Speaker 1: they did get quantity, especially with arms. Here's my question, though, Joe, 364 00:17:00,478 --> 00:17:03,358 Speaker 1: when you talk about catchers and that the confidence pitchers 365 00:17:03,398 --> 00:17:05,438 Speaker 1: have in him and I get asked this question a 366 00:17:05,438 --> 00:17:08,198 Speaker 1: lot from fans because they used to watch in college baseball, 367 00:17:08,278 --> 00:17:10,438 Speaker 1: some of them how much influence of the bench have 368 00:17:10,598 --> 00:17:14,838 Speaker 1: and pitch calling? I mean, do managers pitching coaches call 369 00:17:14,918 --> 00:17:17,398 Speaker 1: pitches from the dugout for these guys? You know that 370 00:17:17,478 --> 00:17:19,038 Speaker 1: was really prevalent and I hate to go all the 371 00:17:19,038 --> 00:17:21,238 Speaker 1: way back to the eighties, but Jim wing Dot you 372 00:17:21,278 --> 00:17:23,078 Speaker 1: have they used to call pitches all the time for 373 00:17:23,118 --> 00:17:26,438 Speaker 1: their pictures and that was Joe McGrain and h Ericson 374 00:17:26,798 --> 00:17:28,638 Speaker 1: was with the two big pictures on that stuff and 375 00:17:28,678 --> 00:17:31,118 Speaker 1: really bothered me as a scout watching this all the time, 376 00:17:31,158 --> 00:17:35,198 Speaker 1: because sometimes when that occurs, especially on that level, you'll 377 00:17:35,198 --> 00:17:37,598 Speaker 1: never find out how good of a fastball somebody's actually 378 00:17:37,598 --> 00:17:40,238 Speaker 1: got because they're gonna call the pitches. They get hitters 379 00:17:40,238 --> 00:17:43,158 Speaker 1: out at that level, a lot of breaking pitches, and 380 00:17:43,278 --> 00:17:45,478 Speaker 1: you just never really find out what with the full 381 00:17:45,558 --> 00:17:49,438 Speaker 1: capacity of a picture is moving it forward till today. Yeah, 382 00:17:49,598 --> 00:17:53,558 Speaker 1: it happens, But my my more recent experience is that 383 00:17:53,718 --> 00:17:57,198 Speaker 1: groups like to rely on pre series meetings, pregame meetings, 384 00:17:57,278 --> 00:18:00,078 Speaker 1: and the little wrist band on the risk of the catcher, 385 00:18:00,158 --> 00:18:03,078 Speaker 1: because to me, that's part of control. You're really trying 386 00:18:03,118 --> 00:18:08,158 Speaker 1: to eliminate gut feelings and moments by players in regards 387 00:18:08,198 --> 00:18:10,798 Speaker 1: to almost going rogues that the phrase I would use, 388 00:18:10,838 --> 00:18:13,478 Speaker 1: and sometimes that would would bother me too, because if 389 00:18:13,478 --> 00:18:15,918 Speaker 1: a catcher and a picture really haven't studied well enough 390 00:18:16,238 --> 00:18:19,078 Speaker 1: independent of just being told what to do, you can 391 00:18:19,158 --> 00:18:21,598 Speaker 1: run into some problems right there because they think they know, 392 00:18:21,678 --> 00:18:24,118 Speaker 1: but they really don't. And and so there's a time 393 00:18:24,158 --> 00:18:26,918 Speaker 1: that I really don't want guys going off script if 394 00:18:26,918 --> 00:18:29,038 Speaker 1: they're not great studiers, they don't have a great feel 395 00:18:29,118 --> 00:18:31,798 Speaker 1: for this. I really want you to stay on script. However, 396 00:18:31,838 --> 00:18:35,158 Speaker 1: there's those guys that are great studiers, both pictures and catchers, 397 00:18:35,438 --> 00:18:37,238 Speaker 1: and it doesn't bother me as much as when they 398 00:18:37,278 --> 00:18:39,518 Speaker 1: do go off script because there's gonna be a reason 399 00:18:39,558 --> 00:18:42,598 Speaker 1: for that. So there's there's so many different ways to 400 00:18:42,678 --> 00:18:45,078 Speaker 1: look at this, and I think I just explained it 401 00:18:45,118 --> 00:18:46,998 Speaker 1: to you. That's I'm good with all of that. Again, 402 00:18:47,038 --> 00:18:49,278 Speaker 1: going back to the Cub days, Mike Borzello was the 403 00:18:49,358 --> 00:18:52,558 Speaker 1: game planner there, and Bors is unique. I've often talked 404 00:18:52,558 --> 00:18:55,198 Speaker 1: about after games the other team got Borzello because the 405 00:18:55,518 --> 00:18:58,118 Speaker 1: pitch election was so good coming from the bench in 406 00:18:58,198 --> 00:19:00,198 Speaker 1: hot moments and I know this would be Wilson, I 407 00:19:00,238 --> 00:19:02,758 Speaker 1: know be Miggey Montero, and it would be David Ross. 408 00:19:02,838 --> 00:19:04,838 Speaker 1: There be moments that, yeah, you got all this intel, 409 00:19:04,878 --> 00:19:07,558 Speaker 1: you had the meeting. You can look at your wristband 410 00:19:07,558 --> 00:19:09,598 Speaker 1: as often as you want, but there'll be that one 411 00:19:09,638 --> 00:19:11,438 Speaker 1: pitch that you need in a hot moment. And I 412 00:19:11,478 --> 00:19:14,318 Speaker 1: love the idea of being able to look in to 413 00:19:14,438 --> 00:19:17,838 Speaker 1: a well prepared coach to look back and again, part 414 00:19:17,918 --> 00:19:20,478 Speaker 1: of Bors's strengths is the fact that he's not afraid 415 00:19:20,518 --> 00:19:22,518 Speaker 1: to give you the pitch he's not afraid if it 416 00:19:22,558 --> 00:19:24,518 Speaker 1: doesn't work that it's going to come back on him. 417 00:19:24,558 --> 00:19:26,678 Speaker 1: The fact that he may have said something or told 418 00:19:26,678 --> 00:19:29,198 Speaker 1: you to do something inappropriately or wrong. I love the 419 00:19:29,198 --> 00:19:30,878 Speaker 1: fact that he's not worried about that. And you have 420 00:19:30,918 --> 00:19:32,798 Speaker 1: to have somebody really strong, And that's another thing you 421 00:19:32,838 --> 00:19:34,998 Speaker 1: have to understand. Who's ever in a dugout giving that 422 00:19:35,118 --> 00:19:37,598 Speaker 1: pitch back to the catcher who then gives it to 423 00:19:37,638 --> 00:19:39,638 Speaker 1: the picture. They've gotta have a strong personality and not 424 00:19:39,718 --> 00:19:42,398 Speaker 1: being worried about being wrong. And Boars he was that 425 00:19:42,518 --> 00:19:45,718 Speaker 1: strong personality and not being concerned about being wrong. So 426 00:19:45,758 --> 00:19:47,958 Speaker 1: I wanted that, and I saw it really work. I'd 427 00:19:47,998 --> 00:19:49,958 Speaker 1: be staying next to the mike and a duggan said 428 00:19:49,958 --> 00:19:51,958 Speaker 1: what he got right here, brother, and you'd see the 429 00:19:51,998 --> 00:19:54,998 Speaker 1: catcher just peek in and they'd have their little, very 430 00:19:55,038 --> 00:19:58,118 Speaker 1: simple signs in order to get to this next moment, 431 00:19:58,118 --> 00:19:59,878 Speaker 1: and I know it was a big relief on the 432 00:19:59,958 --> 00:20:01,798 Speaker 1: catcher and then he would put the sign down with 433 00:20:01,798 --> 00:20:04,358 Speaker 1: more conviction. So there's all these different things going on, 434 00:20:04,678 --> 00:20:06,598 Speaker 1: but you have to have the latitude from the group. 435 00:20:06,798 --> 00:20:09,198 Speaker 1: And there's not many boys these out there that consider 436 00:20:09,238 --> 00:20:11,878 Speaker 1: in the dugout game. Plan and then pass it along 437 00:20:11,918 --> 00:20:15,758 Speaker 1: to the catcher in the moment with conviction, with confidence. 438 00:20:15,798 --> 00:20:18,198 Speaker 1: That really can be a different smaker in the game. 439 00:20:18,598 --> 00:20:20,958 Speaker 1: Although this is part of the landscape right now. Yeah, 440 00:20:20,998 --> 00:20:23,878 Speaker 1: that brings me back to his many great stories. Game 441 00:20:23,958 --> 00:20:28,078 Speaker 1: seven World Series the only time Game seven was one 442 00:20:28,438 --> 00:20:32,198 Speaker 1: using three different catchers behind the play in that game. 443 00:20:32,278 --> 00:20:34,398 Speaker 1: That was pretty cool. By the way, you mentioned the 444 00:20:34,478 --> 00:20:37,398 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties, and yeah, managers were much more hands on 445 00:20:37,478 --> 00:20:41,518 Speaker 1: back in the day. And I remember Billy Martin. Billy Martin, listen. 446 00:20:41,598 --> 00:20:44,638 Speaker 1: He didn't like pictures. They didn't. He only like pictures 447 00:20:44,678 --> 00:20:46,998 Speaker 1: who threw hard or dusted people. And he was always 448 00:20:46,998 --> 00:20:49,678 Speaker 1: complaining about his catchers as well. But he called a 449 00:20:49,718 --> 00:20:51,478 Speaker 1: lot of pitches. I remember one game. I think he 450 00:20:51,558 --> 00:20:54,718 Speaker 1: called sixties something straight fastballs for a young owl lighter. 451 00:20:54,758 --> 00:20:57,798 Speaker 1: It was ridiculous. My favorite story, though, was when Billy 452 00:20:57,958 --> 00:21:00,878 Speaker 1: was in the hospital in Texas. He had received the 453 00:21:00,958 --> 00:21:04,318 Speaker 1: B twelve shot that actually punctured his lung. That's how 454 00:21:04,358 --> 00:21:07,158 Speaker 1: thin Billy was at the time. Couldn't travel to Cleveland. 455 00:21:07,158 --> 00:21:09,998 Speaker 1: So the Yankees playing Cleveland and lou Panella, the bench 456 00:21:10,038 --> 00:21:14,438 Speaker 1: coach takes over the team. Billy Martin calls the dugout 457 00:21:14,638 --> 00:21:19,118 Speaker 1: during the game to call pitches, to call plays, telling 458 00:21:19,198 --> 00:21:21,838 Speaker 1: lou Panella when he should bun. Butch Weininger, who was 459 00:21:21,878 --> 00:21:24,438 Speaker 1: the backup catcher that day, was on the phone with 460 00:21:24,478 --> 00:21:27,358 Speaker 1: Billy Martin. He swore Billy was actually half drunk from 461 00:21:27,358 --> 00:21:30,478 Speaker 1: the hospital bed calling the game. How about calling pitches 462 00:21:30,758 --> 00:21:34,358 Speaker 1: from a hospital a thousand miles away. That was Billy Martin. 463 00:21:34,718 --> 00:21:36,958 Speaker 1: I mean, I can't even imagine I would even Like, 464 00:21:36,998 --> 00:21:38,558 Speaker 1: when I get kicked out of the game, I just 465 00:21:38,558 --> 00:21:40,558 Speaker 1: go upstairs and have a glass of wine. I'm out 466 00:21:40,598 --> 00:21:42,718 Speaker 1: of it. That's that's where they'll come on. You don't 467 00:21:42,758 --> 00:21:45,278 Speaker 1: run the game from the from the runway, not at all. 468 00:21:45,438 --> 00:21:47,518 Speaker 1: I've never done that. I have never done that. I might, 469 00:21:47,598 --> 00:21:49,638 Speaker 1: what's in a while, you might get a runner coming up. 470 00:21:49,918 --> 00:21:52,758 Speaker 1: Hey uh skip once into the manager at that particular 471 00:21:52,798 --> 00:21:54,598 Speaker 1: one wants to know what you want to do right here, 472 00:21:55,038 --> 00:21:57,158 Speaker 1: and I may or sometimes I might say something to 473 00:21:57,198 --> 00:21:58,958 Speaker 1: do whatever he likes to do. Man, this is a 474 00:21:58,998 --> 00:22:02,198 Speaker 1: perfect opportunity to remember the bench coach is to get 475 00:22:02,238 --> 00:22:05,358 Speaker 1: that kind of experience that may be beneficial down the road. 476 00:22:05,438 --> 00:22:10,318 Speaker 1: So no, I yes, I've interfered or I've given thoughts sometimes, 477 00:22:10,358 --> 00:22:12,678 Speaker 1: but for the most most of the times, I'm out 478 00:22:12,678 --> 00:22:14,838 Speaker 1: of it once I get kicked out him out, enjoying 479 00:22:14,878 --> 00:22:17,438 Speaker 1: a glasshom or low perhaps the way it should be 480 00:22:17,518 --> 00:22:22,798 Speaker 1: once you're out of the game, or chaplet, something like that. Hey, 481 00:22:22,998 --> 00:22:25,678 Speaker 1: stick around, because when we get back, it's time once 482 00:22:25,718 --> 00:22:37,918 Speaker 1: again for a Reading from the Book of Joe. Welcome 483 00:22:37,918 --> 00:22:40,518 Speaker 1: back to the Book of Joe podcast. And if you 484 00:22:40,518 --> 00:22:42,758 Speaker 1: haven't been with us the last couple of times, we've 485 00:22:42,798 --> 00:22:45,318 Speaker 1: introduced a new segment here called a Reading from the 486 00:22:45,318 --> 00:22:49,158 Speaker 1: Book of Joe. We pick at random a page out 487 00:22:49,158 --> 00:22:51,558 Speaker 1: of our book, the Book of Joe. And in this 488 00:22:51,598 --> 00:22:54,198 Speaker 1: case we're letting our producer Vince make the call. It's 489 00:22:54,198 --> 00:22:57,638 Speaker 1: okay with you, right, Joe, Vince, Yeah, I hate picked 490 00:22:57,838 --> 00:23:00,958 Speaker 1: one thirty one. And the reason we're doing this, folks, 491 00:23:00,998 --> 00:23:03,558 Speaker 1: is because I believe you pick up this book and 492 00:23:03,598 --> 00:23:07,518 Speaker 1: go to any random page, you will find something interesting. 493 00:23:07,798 --> 00:23:11,158 Speaker 1: You might learn something something you don't know. And our 494 00:23:11,558 --> 00:23:15,678 Speaker 1: page today is page number one thirty one. And Joe, 495 00:23:15,918 --> 00:23:20,398 Speaker 1: this involves Kenny Grants. Remember Kenny Grants. Oh my god, 496 00:23:20,438 --> 00:23:23,638 Speaker 1: my boy, man, I just drove through Patterson, New Jersey 497 00:23:23,718 --> 00:23:25,678 Speaker 1: this past winter. A couple of times, and I just 498 00:23:25,718 --> 00:23:27,838 Speaker 1: thought about him every time, and one of these moments, 499 00:23:27,998 --> 00:23:30,438 Speaker 1: I'm gonna get back in touch with him somehow. Kenny 500 00:23:30,478 --> 00:23:33,598 Speaker 1: Grant is from was from Paterson, New Jersey, played in 501 00:23:33,638 --> 00:23:38,278 Speaker 1: the Angels system. In nine, Joe Madden calls him into 502 00:23:38,398 --> 00:23:42,158 Speaker 1: his office at gene Autry Park in Mesa, Arizona, and 503 00:23:42,278 --> 00:23:45,038 Speaker 1: Joe knew him well over the previous two seasons. He 504 00:23:45,158 --> 00:23:47,718 Speaker 1: was the Angels minor league instructor and worked with this 505 00:23:47,758 --> 00:23:50,078 Speaker 1: guy to try to turn him into what everybody wants 506 00:23:50,118 --> 00:23:53,198 Speaker 1: and hopes for, a big league player. The Angels decided 507 00:23:53,398 --> 00:23:55,078 Speaker 1: we're gonna get rid of him, and it was up 508 00:23:55,078 --> 00:23:58,318 Speaker 1: to Joe Madden to tell Kenny Grant that his dream 509 00:23:58,438 --> 00:24:01,558 Speaker 1: was dead. He was releasing Kenny Grant. So here's Joe 510 00:24:01,638 --> 00:24:04,598 Speaker 1: Madden talking about the moment. I'm sure he can still 511 00:24:04,638 --> 00:24:07,758 Speaker 1: see in his mind's eye. Kenny comes in and sits down, 512 00:24:08,118 --> 00:24:11,278 Speaker 1: and I see his little face right now, Kenny, that's it. 513 00:24:11,518 --> 00:24:13,638 Speaker 1: We're going to have to release you. And then you 514 00:24:13,678 --> 00:24:16,318 Speaker 1: try to explain to him why he's just looking at me. 515 00:24:16,558 --> 00:24:20,118 Speaker 1: He's not complaining, he's not crying, he's not blaming anybody, 516 00:24:20,398 --> 00:24:22,918 Speaker 1: none of that stuff. He just took it. He took 517 00:24:22,918 --> 00:24:25,398 Speaker 1: it like I would have expected him to. That's just 518 00:24:25,478 --> 00:24:28,238 Speaker 1: who he was. So he pretty much said all right, 519 00:24:28,958 --> 00:24:31,998 Speaker 1: stood up, shook his hand, gave him a big old hug, 520 00:24:32,518 --> 00:24:36,038 Speaker 1: and I was crying. I didn't know how noticeably to him, 521 00:24:36,038 --> 00:24:40,278 Speaker 1: but I was, Why was that so emotional for you, Joe? 522 00:24:40,478 --> 00:24:43,958 Speaker 1: When you're a minor league instructor, manager, coach, cornad or whatever, 523 00:24:44,078 --> 00:24:46,278 Speaker 1: you spend a lot of time with these guys. And 524 00:24:46,318 --> 00:24:49,838 Speaker 1: I really do believe till just stay Kenny had the 525 00:24:49,838 --> 00:24:51,918 Speaker 1: ability to play at a really high level and probably 526 00:24:52,038 --> 00:24:54,198 Speaker 1: is a very good utility major league player. And I 527 00:24:54,238 --> 00:24:56,238 Speaker 1: know how hard he worked. I knew what he was 528 00:24:56,278 --> 00:24:59,638 Speaker 1: going back to once we had released him on that 529 00:24:59,678 --> 00:25:02,518 Speaker 1: particular date. But he had a great laugh. Like I 530 00:25:02,518 --> 00:25:07,198 Speaker 1: said he was. He was open minded, let you in there, 531 00:25:07,678 --> 00:25:10,118 Speaker 1: never complain. I mean the guys that never complain or 532 00:25:10,198 --> 00:25:13,878 Speaker 1: cry or blame somebody else. They always got my absolute 533 00:25:13,918 --> 00:25:16,998 Speaker 1: loyalty forever and ever. And that was Kenny. If you 534 00:25:17,038 --> 00:25:18,998 Speaker 1: looked at his numbers, which I did after all that, 535 00:25:19,038 --> 00:25:20,918 Speaker 1: I mean, in today's game, this guy would have been 536 00:25:20,998 --> 00:25:23,518 Speaker 1: much more attractive. Look at his on base percentages, walks, 537 00:25:23,518 --> 00:25:26,198 Speaker 1: the strikeouts, his ops kind of things, Joe. In the 538 00:25:26,278 --> 00:25:29,438 Speaker 1: previous three years before he was released, as on base 539 00:25:29,558 --> 00:25:35,398 Speaker 1: percentages were four six, four oh six, and three eight. 540 00:25:35,998 --> 00:25:39,918 Speaker 1: So I agree with you. In today's game, I don't 541 00:25:39,918 --> 00:25:42,398 Speaker 1: think he gets released. That guy could get on base. 542 00:25:42,558 --> 00:25:45,318 Speaker 1: It wasn't valued in the eighties like it is today. 543 00:25:45,358 --> 00:25:46,918 Speaker 1: And not only that, he had one of the finest 544 00:25:46,958 --> 00:25:48,798 Speaker 1: throwing arms I've ever seen. He was like it was 545 00:25:48,838 --> 00:25:52,198 Speaker 1: like a little stocky, strong guy, but he could throw, man. 546 00:25:52,278 --> 00:25:54,198 Speaker 1: He could throw from third base, he could throw from 547 00:25:54,198 --> 00:25:57,158 Speaker 1: the outfield. He ran well enough. Again, he was just 548 00:25:57,198 --> 00:26:00,078 Speaker 1: born at the wrong time. If he's in today's game, Kenny, 549 00:26:00,158 --> 00:26:02,758 Speaker 1: I really believe would have gone a lot farther. And 550 00:26:02,878 --> 00:26:05,918 Speaker 1: if if any chance Kenny's listening to this, please get 551 00:26:05,918 --> 00:26:08,118 Speaker 1: in touch with us somehow. I would love to say 552 00:26:08,118 --> 00:26:10,598 Speaker 1: a lot to you man. You do you epitomized to 553 00:26:10,638 --> 00:26:13,358 Speaker 1: me with the minor leagues, was all about the relationship 554 00:26:13,438 --> 00:26:16,078 Speaker 1: that we had, and as a scout looking at you, 555 00:26:16,198 --> 00:26:18,398 Speaker 1: I always thought that they should have turned out even better. 556 00:26:18,598 --> 00:26:21,158 Speaker 1: That reminds me, Joe. I mean, baseball is the one game. 557 00:26:21,358 --> 00:26:24,598 Speaker 1: It's it's as you know, you've done it on all levels. 558 00:26:24,638 --> 00:26:27,998 Speaker 1: It's hard to predict success in this game, right, did 559 00:26:28,078 --> 00:26:31,158 Speaker 1: you have players on the opposite end of the spectrum 560 00:26:31,158 --> 00:26:34,038 Speaker 1: where you thought they had all the ability in the 561 00:26:34,078 --> 00:26:38,798 Speaker 1: world to be terrific players and for whatever reason, it 562 00:26:38,838 --> 00:26:42,118 Speaker 1: did not translate and they didn't become that player you 563 00:26:42,118 --> 00:26:44,918 Speaker 1: thought they could be. Often oftentimes and a lot of 564 00:26:44,958 --> 00:26:48,198 Speaker 1: times you're talking about guys with great bodies and again, uh, like, 565 00:26:48,278 --> 00:26:51,518 Speaker 1: individually great skills. They have five tools. They could run, 566 00:26:51,918 --> 00:26:54,198 Speaker 1: they can throw, they can play defense, hit the ball 567 00:26:54,238 --> 00:26:56,358 Speaker 1: and hit the ball far. They had all this stuff 568 00:26:56,398 --> 00:26:58,478 Speaker 1: going on, but it would break down. And again it 569 00:26:58,558 --> 00:27:01,598 Speaker 1: breaks down in between the years, the makeup, the way 570 00:27:01,598 --> 00:27:05,358 Speaker 1: you process the information, your inability to handle failure, because 571 00:27:05,358 --> 00:27:07,198 Speaker 1: there's a lots so much of our game is failure, 572 00:27:07,718 --> 00:27:10,198 Speaker 1: and you just didn't have that that grind factor that 573 00:27:10,238 --> 00:27:13,398 Speaker 1: could make you work through these difficult moments. And that's 574 00:27:13,438 --> 00:27:16,438 Speaker 1: part of the scouting component also, because as a scout, 575 00:27:16,518 --> 00:27:19,158 Speaker 1: you recognize the tools. You see the body, you see 576 00:27:19,158 --> 00:27:21,278 Speaker 1: the ability, see the way the body works. So you're 577 00:27:21,318 --> 00:27:23,438 Speaker 1: gonna these guys are gonna keep getting more and more 578 00:27:23,478 --> 00:27:26,838 Speaker 1: opportunities and eventually they will wash up based on the 579 00:27:26,878 --> 00:27:29,638 Speaker 1: makeup component of it. And then there's the guys like Kenny, 580 00:27:29,638 --> 00:27:32,158 Speaker 1: which was I don't remember what round Kenny was drafted in, 581 00:27:32,198 --> 00:27:34,558 Speaker 1: but I thought he had more tools than we're being 582 00:27:34,598 --> 00:27:37,718 Speaker 1: recognized also, but then again, there's gonna be other players 583 00:27:37,838 --> 00:27:40,238 Speaker 1: that the tool like David x Stein is a great 584 00:27:40,238 --> 00:27:43,278 Speaker 1: example as from a scouts perspective, Why would you ever 585 00:27:43,318 --> 00:27:46,038 Speaker 1: think this guy is going to be World Series m 586 00:27:46,078 --> 00:27:49,718 Speaker 1: v P. But he is because the tools were fine, 587 00:27:49,958 --> 00:27:53,918 Speaker 1: but the mass between the ears was extraordinary. So there's 588 00:27:53,958 --> 00:27:55,278 Speaker 1: These are the kind of things you have to be 589 00:27:55,318 --> 00:27:58,198 Speaker 1: able to discern when deciding when to give the ex 590 00:27:58,238 --> 00:28:02,958 Speaker 1: Stein's a longer leash or possibly cutting a short on 591 00:28:03,038 --> 00:28:05,518 Speaker 1: other guys, you just know it's not gonna work for 592 00:28:05,958 --> 00:28:08,558 Speaker 1: in spite of all this tremendous ability. That's just the 593 00:28:08,558 --> 00:28:10,598 Speaker 1: way the Scotting world works. And like I said, I'm 594 00:28:10,598 --> 00:28:13,518 Speaker 1: grateful that I've had this. I had the opportunity to 595 00:28:13,838 --> 00:28:17,758 Speaker 1: see and understand all this based on Larry Himes giving 596 00:28:17,798 --> 00:28:20,958 Speaker 1: me this opportunity and then Bobby Fontane permitting me to 597 00:28:20,998 --> 00:28:23,198 Speaker 1: scout after that, even while I was managing and coaching 598 00:28:23,198 --> 00:28:25,478 Speaker 1: in the minor leagues, and even until today, I think 599 00:28:25,518 --> 00:28:27,798 Speaker 1: still it's one of the strongest points that I have 600 00:28:27,918 --> 00:28:31,078 Speaker 1: in regards to what I do is my scouting background, 601 00:28:31,078 --> 00:28:33,958 Speaker 1: and every time I look at a guy, immediately start 602 00:28:33,998 --> 00:28:35,918 Speaker 1: breaking him down based on what I had learned as 603 00:28:35,918 --> 00:28:39,318 Speaker 1: a scout. Did you think or do you think pictures 604 00:28:39,438 --> 00:28:44,678 Speaker 1: or hitters are the more difficult to scout? It's honestly, 605 00:28:44,718 --> 00:28:49,718 Speaker 1: it's equally difficult. Um hitting with the illuminum bat becomes problematic. 606 00:28:50,158 --> 00:28:52,398 Speaker 1: I don't even know where that's at today, but when 607 00:28:52,438 --> 00:28:55,278 Speaker 1: it's transitioned from wood to illuminum. Back when I first 608 00:28:55,278 --> 00:28:57,838 Speaker 1: began to scout, it was it was more difficult. Guys 609 00:28:57,838 --> 00:29:00,518 Speaker 1: would be You'd be rewarded with the illuminum bat for 610 00:29:00,598 --> 00:29:03,558 Speaker 1: having even an army or longer swing because velocity was 611 00:29:03,558 --> 00:29:05,078 Speaker 1: in its great and you get hit the ball in 612 00:29:05,118 --> 00:29:07,238 Speaker 1: the either the end of the bat or towards the 613 00:29:07,238 --> 00:29:10,038 Speaker 1: handle and still be rewarded. So I was always as 614 00:29:10,078 --> 00:29:11,798 Speaker 1: a scout like I would really want to look at 615 00:29:11,838 --> 00:29:14,198 Speaker 1: hand action and how the guy got the barrel to 616 00:29:14,278 --> 00:29:16,798 Speaker 1: the ball and the bat speed like Timmy Samon stands 617 00:29:16,838 --> 00:29:18,718 Speaker 1: out to me as a guy was not having a 618 00:29:18,758 --> 00:29:21,158 Speaker 1: good year, but the bat speed was extraordinary and the 619 00:29:21,198 --> 00:29:23,638 Speaker 1: way used his hands was so I would really lock 620 00:29:23,758 --> 00:29:25,958 Speaker 1: into him and other guys I would just shy away 621 00:29:25,998 --> 00:29:28,278 Speaker 1: from because I didn't see that, and I thought he 622 00:29:28,358 --> 00:29:31,518 Speaker 1: was benefiting from the illuminum bat pitching. On the other hand, man, 623 00:29:32,118 --> 00:29:35,358 Speaker 1: you know, it's the arm stroke. Everybody looks at velocity. 624 00:29:35,638 --> 00:29:38,278 Speaker 1: I know people always used to write on the famous 625 00:29:38,318 --> 00:29:42,078 Speaker 1: line was with proper instruction on on different ascot reports, 626 00:29:42,078 --> 00:29:44,438 Speaker 1: that you could actually change somebody. But it's hard to 627 00:29:44,518 --> 00:29:47,118 Speaker 1: change arm strokes, and it's hard to add. The big 628 00:29:47,118 --> 00:29:48,598 Speaker 1: thing with me was of a guy at a really 629 00:29:48,598 --> 00:29:50,558 Speaker 1: good break of ball and spun the ball well, but 630 00:29:50,598 --> 00:29:53,078 Speaker 1: his velocity numbers weren't high enough. I like that because 631 00:29:53,118 --> 00:29:55,078 Speaker 1: I thought there was a lot of strength from the 632 00:29:55,198 --> 00:29:57,478 Speaker 1: elbow to the for the fingertips, which I thought would 633 00:29:57,478 --> 00:30:00,718 Speaker 1: help improve him down the road. So they Again this 634 00:30:00,798 --> 00:30:02,918 Speaker 1: might have been my own personal bias, but both are 635 00:30:02,918 --> 00:30:05,878 Speaker 1: equally difficult, and especially with because of the injury factors 636 00:30:05,878 --> 00:30:08,398 Speaker 1: so high. So again, it would just be based on 637 00:30:08,518 --> 00:30:11,438 Speaker 1: different things that you saw on a daily basis, and 638 00:30:11,478 --> 00:30:13,558 Speaker 1: then you would see the end result when guys would 639 00:30:13,598 --> 00:30:16,518 Speaker 1: eventually achieve the major leagues, and you have that perspective 640 00:30:16,518 --> 00:30:18,118 Speaker 1: from what you saw what he looked like when he 641 00:30:18,158 --> 00:30:20,998 Speaker 1: was seventeen to what he looks like when he's four 642 00:30:21,038 --> 00:30:23,118 Speaker 1: and two big leagues. So I had all that I 643 00:30:23,158 --> 00:30:25,478 Speaker 1: had the ability to do all those different things based 644 00:30:25,518 --> 00:30:28,398 Speaker 1: on the opportunity that I was given at that time. 645 00:30:28,438 --> 00:30:32,078 Speaker 1: But last point managing scotting and managing and rookie ball, 646 00:30:32,118 --> 00:30:35,878 Speaker 1: to me was really set. My sights are permitted me too. 647 00:30:36,038 --> 00:30:38,398 Speaker 1: I think better at this was the fact that I 648 00:30:38,438 --> 00:30:40,878 Speaker 1: can see as a scout what a good guy looked 649 00:30:40,878 --> 00:30:43,358 Speaker 1: like in junior college, high school of college, and then 650 00:30:43,398 --> 00:30:45,918 Speaker 1: I got to work with him in a ball, rookie ball, 651 00:30:45,958 --> 00:30:50,238 Speaker 1: and then saw that blossom. That kind of perspective is invaluable. Well, Joe, 652 00:30:50,278 --> 00:30:52,358 Speaker 1: before we get out of here, I want to turn 653 00:30:52,478 --> 00:30:54,718 Speaker 1: all of our listeners on the Book of Joe podcast 654 00:30:54,798 --> 00:30:59,998 Speaker 1: and to scouts themselves your job. Find Kenny Grant. Hell 655 00:31:00,038 --> 00:31:01,998 Speaker 1: of an idea man. Thank you on that. I want 656 00:31:02,038 --> 00:31:05,278 Speaker 1: to get Kenny Grant on this podcast, asks and that 657 00:31:05,278 --> 00:31:08,158 Speaker 1: would be terrific. I'd love to hear his story and 658 00:31:08,358 --> 00:31:10,758 Speaker 1: what he's up to these days. So if anybody knows 659 00:31:10,798 --> 00:31:12,878 Speaker 1: where we can get ahold of Kenny Grant, let us know. 660 00:31:13,278 --> 00:31:15,278 Speaker 1: You got something to take us out, Joe. I do 661 00:31:15,638 --> 00:31:18,158 Speaker 1: something that I read it to the other day, and uh, 662 00:31:18,198 --> 00:31:19,798 Speaker 1: I wrote to you about it. I sent you the 663 00:31:19,798 --> 00:31:22,118 Speaker 1: photograph of the man who has said it, and it's 664 00:31:22,158 --> 00:31:26,118 Speaker 1: like little caption and God, it's just resonates so strongly today. 665 00:31:26,118 --> 00:31:29,318 Speaker 1: And I didn't say this. This comes from Mr Albert Einstein, 666 00:31:29,398 --> 00:31:33,118 Speaker 1: pretty prominent individual known for high level of thinking. But 667 00:31:33,198 --> 00:31:35,318 Speaker 1: he wrote, I don't even know the exact year, but 668 00:31:35,518 --> 00:31:39,918 Speaker 1: I fear the day when the technology overlaps with our humanity. 669 00:31:40,158 --> 00:31:44,118 Speaker 1: The world will only have a generation of idiots, Mr 670 00:31:44,158 --> 00:31:47,518 Speaker 1: Albert Einstein, So let's be aware. Well said. We'll leave 671 00:31:47,558 --> 00:31:49,438 Speaker 1: it at that, See you next time on the Book 672 00:31:49,438 --> 00:31:57,398 Speaker 1: of Joe. Thanks brother. The Book of Joe podcast is 673 00:31:57,438 --> 00:32:00,358 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for 674 00:32:00,438 --> 00:32:03,478 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple 675 00:32:03,518 --> 00:32:06,198 Speaker 1: podcast Us, or wherever you get your podcasts.