1 00:00:17,292 --> 00:00:35,142 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello and welcome to The Spill. I'm Amy Westervelt. 2 00:00:35,642 --> 00:00:39,101 Speaker 1: This is our weekly newscast in the Drilled feed in 3 00:00:39,142 --> 00:00:43,902 Speaker 1: between narrative seasons where we bring you conversations amongst ourselves 4 00:00:43,982 --> 00:00:46,142 Speaker 1: about things that are happening in the climate world and 5 00:00:46,612 --> 00:00:51,272 Speaker 1: and also interviews with authors, experts, and other interesting folks 6 00:00:51,592 --> 00:00:55,342 Speaker 1: working on climate. Today I'm excited to bring you an 7 00:00:55,922 --> 00:00:59,782 Speaker 1: interview I did with author Gil Duran. He wrote the 8 00:00:59,822 --> 00:01:04,542 Speaker 1: book The Nerd Reich about techno-fascism in Silicon Valley, and 9 00:01:04,581 --> 00:01:06,422 Speaker 1: he and I talked about a lot of places where 10 00:01:07,002 --> 00:01:10,842 Speaker 1: our books intersect. My book Brought to You By focuses 11 00:01:11,122 --> 00:01:15,152 Speaker 1: on the information ecosystem and how corporations have polluted it, 12 00:01:16,002 --> 00:01:18,922 Speaker 1: including the tech industry with its creation of a whole 13 00:01:19,142 --> 00:01:25,101 Speaker 1: parallel media ecosystem. And Gil's book focuses on what these guys' 14 00:01:25,262 --> 00:01:30,511 Speaker 1: ideology is and how and why they became so anti-democratic. 15 00:01:30,532 --> 00:01:33,652 Speaker 1: It's a really interesting conversation. I hope you enjoy it. 16 00:01:34,071 --> 00:01:38,612 Speaker 1: A condensed version of this conversation ran earlier this month 17 00:01:38,831 --> 00:01:41,312 Speaker 1: in Lit Hub. We'll stick a link to that in 18 00:01:41,331 --> 00:01:45,012 Speaker 1: the show notes. And don't forget to subscribe to the 19 00:01:45,051 --> 00:01:47,912 Speaker 1: podcast so you don't miss our next episode. Now, here's 20 00:01:47,932 --> 00:01:49,332 Speaker 1: my conversation with Gil. 21 00:01:57,362 --> 00:02:00,202 Speaker 2: I'm Gil Duran. I'm an independent journalist and I'm the 22 00:02:00,262 --> 00:02:03,522 Speaker 2: author of The Nerd Reich, Silicon Valley Fascism and the 23 00:02:03,562 --> 00:02:04,382 Speaker 2: War on Democracy. 24 00:02:04,762 --> 00:02:08,072 Speaker 1: The best named book in the business. When did you 25 00:02:08,112 --> 00:02:09,392 Speaker 1: come up with the Nerd Reich name? 26 00:02:10,002 --> 00:02:12,542 Speaker 2: After I had written a few stories on these guys, 27 00:02:12,562 --> 00:02:15,401 Speaker 2: I had one that went really viral on Balaji Sreenivasan, 28 00:02:15,422 --> 00:02:20,442 Speaker 2: the former Coinbase CEO, who is the author of this 29 00:02:20,522 --> 00:02:23,002 Speaker 2: network state cult to build these new tech cities. And 30 00:02:23,142 --> 00:02:25,682 Speaker 2: someone reached out to me because Balaji and his flying 31 00:02:25,722 --> 00:02:27,822 Speaker 2: monkeys were attacking me for two days straight on Twitter. 32 00:02:28,282 --> 00:02:30,502 Speaker 2: And they said, you know, we've been calling this the 33 00:02:30,542 --> 00:02:32,262 Speaker 2: nerd Reich for years. And this was someone from the 34 00:02:32,302 --> 00:02:35,702 Speaker 2: crypto world. And I thought, wow. And I looked and 35 00:02:35,722 --> 00:02:37,752 Speaker 2: the URL was available. No one was really using it. 36 00:02:38,002 --> 00:02:39,502 Speaker 2: I talked to the folks who were the folks who 37 00:02:39,522 --> 00:02:42,562 Speaker 2: were using it, weren't using it anymore. So that's where 38 00:02:42,582 --> 00:02:43,022 Speaker 2: it came from. 39 00:02:43,322 --> 00:02:45,872 Speaker 1: It's so good. It's like it's just so perfect to 40 00:02:45,912 --> 00:02:48,892 Speaker 1: describe them. OK, I want to ask you about The 41 00:02:48,932 --> 00:02:52,512 Speaker 1: Sovereign Individual, this weird little book that Peter Thiel seems 42 00:02:52,612 --> 00:02:56,752 Speaker 1: to really love. Talk about how how you came across 43 00:02:56,892 --> 00:02:59,602 Speaker 1: it and and what exactly this book is. 44 00:03:01,182 --> 00:03:04,782 Speaker 2: In researching the radicalization of Silicon Valley billionaires, it's hard 45 00:03:04,842 --> 00:03:09,252 Speaker 2: not to come across the sovereign individual. It's this 1997 46 00:03:09,252 --> 00:03:12,372 Speaker 2: business doom book. I think Quinn Slobodian called it an 47 00:03:12,592 --> 00:03:16,492 Speaker 2: apocalypse business book that counseled investors how to prepare for 48 00:03:16,512 --> 00:03:19,372 Speaker 2: the coming collapse of democracy in the entire world order. 49 00:03:20,122 --> 00:03:23,502 Speaker 2: And it specifically said that two technologies, cyber currency or 50 00:03:23,582 --> 00:03:27,272 Speaker 2: crypto and advanced automation, what we would call AI, would 51 00:03:27,332 --> 00:03:29,952 Speaker 2: lead to the collapse of nations like the United States. 52 00:03:29,992 --> 00:03:32,832 Speaker 2: But the savvy investors could profit by making the right 53 00:03:32,892 --> 00:03:35,372 Speaker 2: choices ahead of time to prepare for this new world. 54 00:03:35,882 --> 00:03:38,002 Speaker 2: So it comes up a lot and it's name checked 55 00:03:38,062 --> 00:03:42,012 Speaker 2: as this brilliant tome that predicted Bitcoin, which is not true. 56 00:03:42,272 --> 00:03:45,072 Speaker 2: The authors of The Sovereign Individual largely hashed together older 57 00:03:45,172 --> 00:03:47,712 Speaker 2: ideas from the cypherpunks. And so that's how I first 58 00:03:47,732 --> 00:03:49,572 Speaker 2: became aware of it. Now I've read it more times 59 00:03:49,592 --> 00:03:52,892 Speaker 2: than I would like to admit, but it really became 60 00:03:53,092 --> 00:03:59,302 Speaker 2: a guiding post, a prophetic text for some influential Silicon 61 00:03:59,322 --> 00:04:03,762 Speaker 2: Valley billionaires, even though it's a pretty schlocky apocalyptic tome. 62 00:04:04,572 --> 00:04:07,972 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not good. And it's super derivative, right? It 63 00:04:08,052 --> 00:04:12,172 Speaker 1: comes from actually all of these other places. There's a 64 00:04:12,192 --> 00:04:16,571 Speaker 1: guy that I'm obsessed with named Anthony Fisher, who started 65 00:04:16,872 --> 00:04:19,972 Speaker 1: one of the first think tanks back in like the 50s, right? 66 00:04:20,032 --> 00:04:24,642 Speaker 1: He was an adherent of Hayek's and like really into 67 00:04:24,662 --> 00:04:27,061 Speaker 1: the Mont Pelerin Society and all that stuff. And he 68 00:04:27,102 --> 00:04:30,612 Speaker 1: started the Institute for Economic Analysis. And then he ended 69 00:04:30,672 --> 00:04:34,132 Speaker 1: up starting this network called the Atlas Network. That's like, 70 00:04:34,952 --> 00:04:37,582 Speaker 1: you've probably heard of them. So the way that Peter 71 00:04:37,602 --> 00:04:40,142 Speaker 1: Thiel is about the sovereign individual, this guy was about 72 00:04:40,182 --> 00:04:43,062 Speaker 1: the road to serfdom, which is Hayek's big thing. But 73 00:04:43,242 --> 00:04:45,682 Speaker 1: he actually never read the original. He read the Reader's 74 00:04:45,722 --> 00:04:46,702 Speaker 1: Digest version. 75 00:04:48,812 --> 00:04:51,972 Speaker 2: That's all it takes is a summary of the ideas sometimes, 76 00:04:52,012 --> 00:04:52,272 Speaker 2: you know? 77 00:04:52,712 --> 00:04:53,212 Speaker 1: Yeah. 78 00:04:53,452 --> 00:04:53,752 Speaker 2: Yeah. 79 00:04:54,112 --> 00:04:57,382 Speaker 1: I also, I'm curious for your thoughts on like, A 80 00:04:57,422 --> 00:05:00,682 Speaker 1: lot of people talk about how the sovereign individual includes 81 00:05:00,742 --> 00:05:04,102 Speaker 1: this public choice theory notion in it as well. The 82 00:05:04,182 --> 00:05:08,322 Speaker 1: idea that like no one really cares about the common 83 00:05:08,362 --> 00:05:11,602 Speaker 1: good and anybody who says otherwise is like actually just 84 00:05:11,782 --> 00:05:14,541 Speaker 1: using that idea to try to sell you something, which 85 00:05:14,682 --> 00:05:17,342 Speaker 1: I've always thought of as like, I don't know, just 86 00:05:17,382 --> 00:05:21,992 Speaker 1: something that explains these guys sociopathy to themselves. But I'm 87 00:05:22,032 --> 00:05:25,172 Speaker 1: curious what you think about that aspect of the book. 88 00:05:26,452 --> 00:05:28,671 Speaker 2: They hate the public and the common good. And so 89 00:05:28,712 --> 00:05:31,182 Speaker 2: they think everyone else shares this idea. But I think 90 00:05:31,242 --> 00:05:34,042 Speaker 2: most people don't. A lot of what you run across 91 00:05:34,542 --> 00:05:38,862 Speaker 2: with this type of ideology, some call it libertarian, anarcho-capitalism, 92 00:05:38,882 --> 00:05:43,222 Speaker 2: has definitely morphed into fascism, is this idea that none 93 00:05:43,242 --> 00:05:45,042 Speaker 2: of this works and nobody wants it and we're just 94 00:05:45,062 --> 00:05:47,762 Speaker 2: going to do something different. But it's simply not true. 95 00:05:47,822 --> 00:05:50,302 Speaker 2: The system of government we have, as imperfect as it is, 96 00:05:50,972 --> 00:05:53,392 Speaker 2: comes out of thousands of years of trial and error, 97 00:05:53,532 --> 00:05:55,492 Speaker 2: all the way back to the Greeks for categorizing what 98 00:05:55,532 --> 00:05:59,192 Speaker 2: works and what doesn't. And oligarchy and tyranny don't work. 99 00:05:59,252 --> 00:06:03,832 Speaker 2: You need a society. Silicon Valley was created by the government. 100 00:06:03,952 --> 00:06:05,361 Speaker 2: None of these people have a right to get out. 101 00:06:05,382 --> 00:06:07,202 Speaker 2: This is like a gang. You're in it. We paid 102 00:06:07,242 --> 00:06:09,162 Speaker 2: for you. You're in it for life. You don't get 103 00:06:09,202 --> 00:06:10,662 Speaker 2: out of this because now you're rich and you don't 104 00:06:10,702 --> 00:06:13,102 Speaker 2: want to pay taxes and you think you can survive 105 00:06:13,162 --> 00:06:15,922 Speaker 2: on your own. As a species, we can't survive alone. 106 00:06:16,302 --> 00:06:18,262 Speaker 2: on our own. Our parents don't just like dump us 107 00:06:18,322 --> 00:06:21,122 Speaker 2: on the street. We are interdependent. And these guys have 108 00:06:21,162 --> 00:06:23,662 Speaker 2: a mythology that somehow they did it all themselves when 109 00:06:24,062 --> 00:06:26,062 Speaker 2: most of them are government welfare kings. 110 00:06:26,122 --> 00:06:29,952 Speaker 1: So it seems to me and yeah, maybe you'll disagree, 111 00:06:29,992 --> 00:06:33,791 Speaker 1: but it seems to me that people are very resistant 112 00:06:33,812 --> 00:06:36,872 Speaker 1: to the idea that these guys genuinely have these beliefs, 113 00:06:37,172 --> 00:06:39,792 Speaker 1: even though they've like said them out loud a lot 114 00:06:39,832 --> 00:06:40,432 Speaker 1: of times. 115 00:06:40,752 --> 00:06:41,372 Speaker 2: What is that? 116 00:06:41,432 --> 00:06:44,772 Speaker 1: Why do you think people are so resistant to taking 117 00:06:44,812 --> 00:06:45,752 Speaker 1: these guys at their word? 118 00:06:48,042 --> 00:06:50,332 Speaker 2: I think there's two parts to that. A, most of 119 00:06:50,372 --> 00:06:53,312 Speaker 2: the general public hasn't heard this stuff because the mainstream 120 00:06:53,352 --> 00:06:55,432 Speaker 2: press refuses to talk about it for the most part. 121 00:06:55,912 --> 00:06:58,162 Speaker 2: Maybe in little dribs or drabs here and there is 122 00:06:58,202 --> 00:07:03,032 Speaker 2: some oddity on the margins of Silicon Valley societies. What's happened, however, 123 00:07:03,332 --> 00:07:05,532 Speaker 2: is these ideas have moved into the center of our 124 00:07:05,572 --> 00:07:11,752 Speaker 2: politics through J.D. Vance, into our political system. Crypto, which 125 00:07:11,812 --> 00:07:14,602 Speaker 2: very few Americans use and which has no real use 126 00:07:14,642 --> 00:07:18,462 Speaker 2: case besides crime, gambling, human trafficking, and now political corruption, 127 00:07:18,722 --> 00:07:22,242 Speaker 2: has become the biggest player in our political system, the 128 00:07:22,322 --> 00:07:25,182 Speaker 2: biggest donor, with hundreds of millions of dollars on hand 129 00:07:25,542 --> 00:07:30,092 Speaker 2: for the midterms. Why is that? Why is this little used, weird, 130 00:07:30,152 --> 00:07:33,842 Speaker 2: scammy product now the biggest monster in the room? Well, 131 00:07:34,202 --> 00:07:37,122 Speaker 2: when you start asking that question, you get into the 132 00:07:37,162 --> 00:07:39,442 Speaker 2: same stuff I've been writing about, right? They have an 133 00:07:39,502 --> 00:07:43,672 Speaker 2: entire ideology behind this stuff. The idea of crypto is 134 00:07:43,692 --> 00:07:46,492 Speaker 2: that it's going to destroy the government and replace the government. 135 00:07:46,932 --> 00:07:52,212 Speaker 2: And so I think the media has tried to ignore that. 136 00:07:52,332 --> 00:07:54,982 Speaker 2: I think on one level, Editors think, well, we're not 137 00:07:55,022 --> 00:07:57,322 Speaker 2: going to give those stupid ideas any attention. We're not 138 00:07:57,342 --> 00:07:59,602 Speaker 2: going to give them any oxygen. But that's based on 139 00:07:59,622 --> 00:08:04,172 Speaker 2: the presumption that newspaper editors and TV editors decide reality. 140 00:08:04,712 --> 00:08:07,672 Speaker 2: Billionaires have the power now to just impose these ideas 141 00:08:07,712 --> 00:08:10,892 Speaker 2: through culture, through social media, through politics. And so on 142 00:08:11,012 --> 00:08:13,512 Speaker 2: one level, it's that. I also think there's an allergy 143 00:08:13,532 --> 00:08:18,622 Speaker 2: to complicated narratives. And I also think that there's an 144 00:08:18,742 --> 00:08:22,622 Speaker 2: allergy to ideology. Here we are in, what, the 10th 145 00:08:22,662 --> 00:08:25,852 Speaker 2: year of Trump. And people still don't understand on a 146 00:08:25,892 --> 00:08:28,252 Speaker 2: deeper level, why does anybody support Trump? What is it 147 00:08:28,312 --> 00:08:32,582 Speaker 2: about this scammy billionaire from reality TV that who is 148 00:08:32,641 --> 00:08:35,122 Speaker 2: clearly not a Christian or a family man, even that 149 00:08:35,141 --> 00:08:36,362 Speaker 2: appeals to evangelicals? 150 00:08:36,442 --> 00:08:36,562 Speaker 3: Right. 151 00:08:36,582 --> 00:08:38,141 Speaker 2: And there are people like George Lakoff and others who 152 00:08:38,162 --> 00:08:41,432 Speaker 2: have explained the appeal of Trump to the right wing brain. 153 00:08:41,872 --> 00:08:45,092 Speaker 2: But most of the media coverage is like a dog 154 00:08:45,131 --> 00:08:48,492 Speaker 2: chasing a ball. the politician or whatever throws a ball, 155 00:08:48,631 --> 00:08:51,072 Speaker 2: everybody chases it. Everybody kind of tells the same story. 156 00:08:51,531 --> 00:08:54,631 Speaker 2: So they're not really talking about the more systemic matters. 157 00:08:54,671 --> 00:08:56,911 Speaker 2: And I just think we have a media that's largely 158 00:08:56,931 --> 00:09:00,661 Speaker 2: got a model based on superficial stories about what's happening. 159 00:09:00,681 --> 00:09:03,482 Speaker 2: And the deeper ones get told after the fact, once 160 00:09:03,521 --> 00:09:04,062 Speaker 2: it's too late. 161 00:09:04,681 --> 00:09:07,781 Speaker 1: It's a perfect segue to talk about this like control 162 00:09:07,842 --> 00:09:11,081 Speaker 1: that these guys have built. I think of it almost 163 00:09:11,161 --> 00:09:15,972 Speaker 1: as like, a parallel media ecosystem that's now surpassed the 164 00:09:16,011 --> 00:09:19,981 Speaker 1: traditional media ecosystem. And sometimes I'll talk to people and 165 00:09:20,002 --> 00:09:25,482 Speaker 1: they'll act like it was a mistake or an unintentional 166 00:09:25,541 --> 00:09:29,761 Speaker 1: consequence of building these platforms that they like eroded the 167 00:09:30,242 --> 00:09:34,101 Speaker 1: business model for journalism, that they, you know, created a 168 00:09:34,122 --> 00:09:37,931 Speaker 1: situation where these guys have a lot of control over 169 00:09:38,011 --> 00:09:41,421 Speaker 1: information flows, all of that stuff. I'm curious to hear 170 00:09:41,442 --> 00:09:45,421 Speaker 1: what you think about how important that's been to their 171 00:09:45,462 --> 00:09:48,982 Speaker 1: ability to to kind of have this takeover that like 172 00:09:49,381 --> 00:09:51,611 Speaker 1: on the one hand, there are all of these problems 173 00:09:51,681 --> 00:09:54,452 Speaker 1: with how mainstream media covers stuff. But on the other hand, 174 00:09:54,911 --> 00:09:59,911 Speaker 1: they've built this parallel ecosystem that is now, I would say, 175 00:09:59,972 --> 00:10:03,192 Speaker 1: more influential than traditional media. 176 00:10:03,192 --> 00:10:07,942 Speaker 2: That's what they call it, a parallel system, a parallel media, 177 00:10:08,541 --> 00:10:12,521 Speaker 2: a parallel politics, parallel education is another big point for them. 178 00:10:13,222 --> 00:10:16,641 Speaker 2: They understand how influence and persuasion work in society. They 179 00:10:16,681 --> 00:10:21,911 Speaker 2: understand how opinions and brains are shaped by information, by words, 180 00:10:21,992 --> 00:10:24,711 Speaker 2: by stories, by narratives. And they want to control that. 181 00:10:25,131 --> 00:10:27,761 Speaker 2: They hate that the media, which they regard as liberal 182 00:10:27,862 --> 00:10:31,401 Speaker 2: because it's based in truth, reason, and rationality, has so 183 00:10:31,442 --> 00:10:34,182 Speaker 2: much power. And they seek to destroy that power and 184 00:10:34,222 --> 00:10:38,362 Speaker 2: replace the press with propaganda that serves their own interests. 185 00:10:38,381 --> 00:10:41,122 Speaker 2: They're very explicit about that. And look, that's why they're 186 00:10:41,141 --> 00:10:44,881 Speaker 2: trying to buy up all the channels, CBS, CNN, or 187 00:10:44,942 --> 00:10:50,232 Speaker 2: creating their own media channels. OpenAI just bought their own podcast, right? 188 00:10:50,252 --> 00:10:52,582 Speaker 2: Whatever happened. I think that's the last anybody heard of it. 189 00:10:53,342 --> 00:10:57,281 Speaker 2: And Andreessen Horowitz is going into trying to create its 190 00:10:57,362 --> 00:10:59,742 Speaker 2: own media. Those things will flop and fail. I don't 191 00:10:59,761 --> 00:11:02,002 Speaker 2: think most people are really interested in a venture capital's 192 00:11:02,102 --> 00:11:05,282 Speaker 2: media organ. But you do have some of these podcasts 193 00:11:05,322 --> 00:11:07,502 Speaker 2: that break out, like the All In podcast, which is 194 00:11:07,521 --> 00:11:12,092 Speaker 2: just these four right-wing venture capitalists sitting around talking for hours. 195 00:11:12,811 --> 00:11:15,811 Speaker 2: And so they do have some success. But that's the idea, 196 00:11:15,891 --> 00:11:19,562 Speaker 2: is to replace the existing establishment– With their own establishment. 197 00:11:20,141 --> 00:11:22,081 Speaker 2: And because of the way the finances work and the 198 00:11:22,141 --> 00:11:24,641 Speaker 2: money works, they've had some luck with that. I mean, 199 00:11:24,661 --> 00:11:27,442 Speaker 2: just last week, the McClatchy newspapers race to work laid 200 00:11:27,521 --> 00:11:30,212 Speaker 2: off a ton of people. Half the reporters at the 201 00:11:30,541 --> 00:11:33,832 Speaker 2: Lexington Herald-Leader where I started, the entire editorial board except 202 00:11:33,872 --> 00:11:35,531 Speaker 2: the editor at the Sacramento Bee where I was the 203 00:11:35,592 --> 00:11:36,411 Speaker 2: editorial page editor. 204 00:11:36,952 --> 00:11:39,471 Speaker 1: I mean, every week I feel like there's a new 205 00:11:39,531 --> 00:11:44,412 Speaker 1: story about mass layoffs at some outlet or another. And, 206 00:11:44,622 --> 00:11:48,222 Speaker 1: I mean, these guys... They've built a parallel media ecosystem 207 00:11:48,881 --> 00:11:52,141 Speaker 1: and somehow managed to create it so that they don't 208 00:11:52,181 --> 00:11:56,722 Speaker 1: have any of the responsibilities or liabilities of traditional publishers, too. 209 00:11:56,801 --> 00:11:59,831 Speaker 1: So they're not responsible for anything that goes on the platforms. 210 00:11:59,901 --> 00:12:03,492 Speaker 1: They're not even regulated by the same agencies that regulate 211 00:12:03,911 --> 00:12:06,612 Speaker 1: other media. It's just a free for all. 212 00:12:07,411 --> 00:12:11,222 Speaker 2: Influences are typically not journalists. Some are, but most aren't. 213 00:12:12,061 --> 00:12:14,521 Speaker 2: I saw one very big influencer last year do a 214 00:12:14,602 --> 00:12:18,222 Speaker 2: whole massively viral thing about how Donald Trump's about to 215 00:12:18,281 --> 00:12:21,481 Speaker 2: give Peter Thiel, Washington, D.C., the city to run as 216 00:12:21,521 --> 00:12:24,401 Speaker 2: his own fiefdom. And this is delivered while the person 217 00:12:24,442 --> 00:12:26,902 Speaker 2: is walking down a street, talking, looking to the camera. 218 00:12:26,921 --> 00:12:28,922 Speaker 2: None of this is natural or normal. And I have 219 00:12:28,942 --> 00:12:30,781 Speaker 2: people writing me like, why aren't you writing about this? 220 00:12:31,002 --> 00:12:34,881 Speaker 2: Because it's not true. Thiel's not in D.C. He doesn't 221 00:12:34,942 --> 00:12:37,681 Speaker 2: own it. And the person's on to new stuff, right? 222 00:12:37,722 --> 00:12:39,752 Speaker 2: So you've got to watch out for some of these 223 00:12:39,832 --> 00:12:43,181 Speaker 2: things because– We're just as susceptible as the MAGA people 224 00:12:43,301 --> 00:12:46,622 Speaker 2: are to these disinformation stories that confirm our biases or 225 00:12:46,661 --> 00:12:48,641 Speaker 2: tell us something we want to hear. No, totally. 226 00:12:48,732 --> 00:12:50,891 Speaker 1: I see it happen all the time. Actually, I keep 227 00:12:50,931 --> 00:12:54,252 Speaker 1: seeing this thing happen with people involved in various sort 228 00:12:54,291 --> 00:12:57,271 Speaker 1: of progressive causes or like on the left, right? Where 229 00:12:57,291 --> 00:13:01,122 Speaker 1: they're like, we should use the same tactics as the 230 00:13:01,161 --> 00:13:05,562 Speaker 1: right-wing guys to get like our thing out. But they'll 231 00:13:05,641 --> 00:13:09,062 Speaker 1: often like, I don't know, it's like they... They don't 232 00:13:09,161 --> 00:13:12,142 Speaker 1: understand that they still need to fact check. They still 233 00:13:12,181 --> 00:13:14,062 Speaker 1: need to, you know what I mean? It's like, okay, 234 00:13:14,181 --> 00:13:15,921 Speaker 1: if you don't want to just be part of the 235 00:13:15,982 --> 00:13:19,622 Speaker 1: larger kind of cluttering of the information ecosystem, it's not 236 00:13:19,661 --> 00:13:22,261 Speaker 1: helpful for you to create like what this guy did 237 00:13:22,342 --> 00:13:25,421 Speaker 1: in DC. That kind of stuff is not helpful to 238 00:13:25,472 --> 00:13:28,451 Speaker 1: people understanding the situation because it just makes them feel 239 00:13:28,472 --> 00:13:32,631 Speaker 1: like they can't trust anything that they're hearing or seeing anywhere. 240 00:13:32,651 --> 00:13:39,052 Speaker 2: Yeah, it serves to absurdify things that should be treated seriously. 241 00:13:39,752 --> 00:13:39,911 Speaker 1: Right. 242 00:13:39,931 --> 00:13:44,872 Speaker 2: I feel when that viral misinformation went out, it made 243 00:13:44,911 --> 00:13:47,511 Speaker 2: my job harder because now people think I'm doing that. 244 00:13:47,791 --> 00:13:50,842 Speaker 2: I'm just telling the scary story, whereas I'm hyperlinked and 245 00:13:50,942 --> 00:13:54,062 Speaker 2: highly aware of the deep pockets of these guys who 246 00:13:54,102 --> 00:13:55,462 Speaker 2: could sue me into oblivion. 247 00:13:55,942 --> 00:13:56,142 Speaker 3: Right. 248 00:13:56,181 --> 00:13:58,102 Speaker 2: So I have to get the facts straight. I can't 249 00:13:58,502 --> 00:14:00,641 Speaker 2: slip up. There are people who put stuff out. I'm like, 250 00:14:00,781 --> 00:14:07,581 Speaker 2: that's not true. The algorithm rewards lies, rewards anger. Rewards outrage. 251 00:14:07,942 --> 00:14:10,332 Speaker 2: And that's what people are going for. A lot of people. 252 00:14:10,372 --> 00:14:12,512 Speaker 2: There are some good influencers. There's a lot of great influencers. 253 00:14:12,911 --> 00:14:15,171 Speaker 2: But some of these people who are trying to straddle 254 00:14:15,212 --> 00:14:18,011 Speaker 2: the line between who are jumping on the news and 255 00:14:18,072 --> 00:14:19,772 Speaker 2: pretending to add to it. 256 00:14:19,811 --> 00:14:21,412 Speaker 1: The news influencers or whatever. 257 00:14:21,431 --> 00:14:23,702 Speaker 2: News influencers. And there's some good ones of those. But 258 00:14:23,742 --> 00:14:25,582 Speaker 2: you've got to be aware. You've got to check facts. 259 00:14:25,742 --> 00:14:27,741 Speaker 2: And if someone is telling you something that you find 260 00:14:27,782 --> 00:14:30,262 Speaker 2: out is not true, you've got to unfollow. 261 00:14:50,222 --> 00:14:53,742 Speaker 1: OK, I want to talk about network state you mentioned 262 00:14:54,342 --> 00:14:56,941 Speaker 1: at the top, but I want to start with sea studying, 263 00:14:57,022 --> 00:14:59,282 Speaker 1: because as someone who like was in the Bay Area 264 00:14:59,322 --> 00:15:01,882 Speaker 1: for a really long time, I really have such vivid 265 00:15:01,942 --> 00:15:02,842 Speaker 1: memories of this. 266 00:15:02,722 --> 00:15:03,302 Speaker 2: Being like that. 267 00:15:04,322 --> 00:15:07,262 Speaker 1: A trend in the, you know, kind of early dot 268 00:15:07,302 --> 00:15:10,372 Speaker 1: com days and and kind of like rolling my eyes 269 00:15:10,452 --> 00:15:12,292 Speaker 1: at it and thinking it was dorky. And really, it 270 00:15:12,311 --> 00:15:14,312 Speaker 1: took me quite a while to understand that it was 271 00:15:14,332 --> 00:15:17,952 Speaker 1: sort of there was like a more nefarious nature underneath. 272 00:15:18,512 --> 00:15:20,772 Speaker 1: But tell me, what is seasteading? 273 00:15:21,652 --> 00:15:24,431 Speaker 2: The basic idea of seasteading is that you could escape 274 00:15:24,552 --> 00:15:28,882 Speaker 2: from democratic governments, laws and regulations by establishing your own 275 00:15:29,342 --> 00:15:32,482 Speaker 2: territory out in the middle of the ocean. And it 276 00:15:32,502 --> 00:15:35,762 Speaker 2: was an idea funded by Peter Thiel back in the 277 00:15:36,282 --> 00:15:41,122 Speaker 2: late 2000s, early 2010s to establish the Seasteading Institute, which 278 00:15:41,242 --> 00:15:43,782 Speaker 2: would start creating these projects around the world. However, the 279 00:15:44,282 --> 00:15:48,572 Speaker 2: idea didn't really pan out because nobody really wants to 280 00:15:48,592 --> 00:15:50,612 Speaker 2: live out in a rusted oil barge in the middle 281 00:15:50,632 --> 00:15:52,711 Speaker 2: of the ocean or on a ship. It's like being 282 00:15:52,732 --> 00:15:54,792 Speaker 2: on the cruise from hell. You know, a lot of 283 00:15:54,811 --> 00:15:57,132 Speaker 2: times these guys don't really understand how people in society work. 284 00:15:57,152 --> 00:15:59,431 Speaker 2: There's a reason we're in cities like San Francisco and 285 00:15:59,492 --> 00:16:02,572 Speaker 2: New York or even Austin or whatever. These things have 286 00:16:02,592 --> 00:16:04,432 Speaker 2: grown over time. These are places people want to be. 287 00:16:04,472 --> 00:16:07,912 Speaker 2: There's a long history and culture and infrastructure there. And 288 00:16:08,152 --> 00:16:10,252 Speaker 2: in a way, it's funny. I was just watching Going Clear, 289 00:16:10,311 --> 00:16:14,652 Speaker 2: the Alex Gibney documentary on Scientology. And, well, L. Ron 290 00:16:14,672 --> 00:16:16,612 Speaker 2: Hubbard's whole thing was to try to do stuff on 291 00:16:16,672 --> 00:16:19,071 Speaker 2: boats to escape rules and laws. That's what Sea Org 292 00:16:19,112 --> 00:16:22,221 Speaker 2: is about. So basically, they didn't even invent anything new 293 00:16:22,262 --> 00:16:25,082 Speaker 2: with seasteading. It's sort of a Scientology knockoff, and it's 294 00:16:25,102 --> 00:16:28,642 Speaker 2: sputtered out. But then seasteading becomes an idea to create 295 00:16:28,662 --> 00:16:33,392 Speaker 2: these things on land instead. So evolving from the ocean 296 00:16:33,472 --> 00:16:37,252 Speaker 2: to the land, just like any primordial creature would. That's 297 00:16:37,292 --> 00:16:38,472 Speaker 2: how smart the tech bros are. 298 00:16:39,452 --> 00:16:41,032 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about that too, because it 299 00:16:41,072 --> 00:16:45,002 Speaker 1: does frustrate me how much people are still in love 300 00:16:45,042 --> 00:16:47,342 Speaker 1: with the idea that these guys are geniuses. And I'm like, 301 00:16:47,362 --> 00:16:51,362 Speaker 1: they're just not. What is so attractive about that idea 302 00:16:51,382 --> 00:16:53,322 Speaker 1: to people, do you think? So I was a clean 303 00:16:53,342 --> 00:16:56,392 Speaker 1: tech reporter in San Francisco in the early 2000s, right? 304 00:16:56,431 --> 00:16:59,232 Speaker 1: So I reported on the early Tesla stuff. And also 305 00:16:59,272 --> 00:17:01,931 Speaker 1: when there was that whole scandal of like Elon Musk 306 00:17:02,132 --> 00:17:04,712 Speaker 1: claiming to be the founder, but he wasn't, he was 307 00:17:04,752 --> 00:17:07,122 Speaker 1: just a late stage investor and like, you know, all 308 00:17:07,132 --> 00:17:07,922 Speaker 1: of these stories. 309 00:17:08,722 --> 00:17:10,282 Speaker 2: So like, Very. 310 00:17:10,061 --> 00:17:13,222 Speaker 1: Early on, he also, I don't know, he's been lying 311 00:17:13,282 --> 00:17:16,542 Speaker 1: for a long time and his ideas are wacky. He's 312 00:17:16,561 --> 00:17:20,101 Speaker 1: been talking about the Mars thing forever and it's never 313 00:17:20,162 --> 00:17:22,782 Speaker 1: made sense, all of that stuff. But every time I 314 00:17:22,821 --> 00:17:25,332 Speaker 1: would write about it, I would get this like swarm 315 00:17:25,402 --> 00:17:29,552 Speaker 1: of muskrats being like, you're an idiot and he's a 316 00:17:29,611 --> 00:17:32,512 Speaker 1: genius and blah, blah, blah. And I still think even 317 00:17:32,611 --> 00:17:37,052 Speaker 1: now when I think his star has definitely dimmed, For 318 00:17:37,091 --> 00:17:41,472 Speaker 1: quite a few people, people think of him as this genius. 319 00:17:41,571 --> 00:17:43,752 Speaker 1: They'll even say things like, I don't really like his politics, 320 00:17:43,792 --> 00:17:46,932 Speaker 1: but you can't deny that he's really brilliant. I can 321 00:17:46,972 --> 00:17:50,712 Speaker 1: deny it and I will. So, yeah. What do you 322 00:17:50,762 --> 00:17:52,742 Speaker 1: think it is that makes people so attached to the 323 00:17:52,782 --> 00:17:54,222 Speaker 1: idea that these guys are geniuses? 324 00:17:55,882 --> 00:17:58,701 Speaker 2: There's an old Yiddish saying that captures it well. If 325 00:17:58,762 --> 00:18:05,192 Speaker 2: you're rich, you're also smart, handsome and can sing. People 326 00:18:05,212 --> 00:18:07,272 Speaker 2: think that rich people are good at everything and they're not. 327 00:18:07,632 --> 00:18:09,252 Speaker 2: And then the rich people start thinking they're good at 328 00:18:09,292 --> 00:18:12,272 Speaker 2: everything because they're egomaniacal. And then everyone's telling them they're 329 00:18:12,292 --> 00:18:14,151 Speaker 2: good at everything. And then you find out they're not. 330 00:18:14,162 --> 00:18:16,241 Speaker 2: Do you remember when Elon Musk said that COVID was 331 00:18:16,282 --> 00:18:18,382 Speaker 2: going to be over by April 2020 and that the 332 00:18:18,762 --> 00:18:21,982 Speaker 2: panic was dumb? I mean, this guy should have never 333 00:18:22,022 --> 00:18:24,802 Speaker 2: been listened to again. He's an idiot. And the billionaires 334 00:18:24,861 --> 00:18:27,362 Speaker 2: are really, really, really dumb about things they don't understand 335 00:18:27,402 --> 00:18:29,242 Speaker 2: or know about. And there might be a few things 336 00:18:29,262 --> 00:18:31,831 Speaker 2: that they're really good at, like making money or finding 337 00:18:31,871 --> 00:18:33,952 Speaker 2: a business opportunity. Some of them have some kind of 338 00:18:34,032 --> 00:18:37,652 Speaker 2: technical knowledge or skill that contributed something that was valuable 339 00:18:37,672 --> 00:18:41,372 Speaker 2: in the market. But that doesn't make them good at everything. 340 00:18:41,472 --> 00:18:43,452 Speaker 2: You know, I'm pretty smart at political analysis. You don't 341 00:18:43,472 --> 00:18:46,752 Speaker 2: want me to conduct your appendicitis surgery. Right. But I 342 00:18:46,792 --> 00:18:49,191 Speaker 2: know that I know what I'm good at and what 343 00:18:49,212 --> 00:18:50,712 Speaker 2: I'm not good at. Now, give me a few billion 344 00:18:50,752 --> 00:18:53,012 Speaker 2: dollars and I might lose track of that. Right. I 345 00:18:53,052 --> 00:18:54,672 Speaker 2: might forget what I'm good at or not, because I 346 00:18:54,692 --> 00:18:58,082 Speaker 2: think we're dealing with an era of billionaire psychosis here. 347 00:18:58,121 --> 00:19:00,911 Speaker 2: It's really clear that the money toxifies their brains and 348 00:19:00,972 --> 00:19:05,151 Speaker 2: is resulting in some pretty insane behavior and it's become contagious. 349 00:19:05,192 --> 00:19:08,391 Speaker 2: Elon Musk was talking about the mind virus he was fighting. 350 00:19:08,782 --> 00:19:10,802 Speaker 2: He is the damn mind virus. They've all got a 351 00:19:10,861 --> 00:19:13,721 Speaker 2: mind virus. Everybody knows this is not like it was 352 00:19:13,722 --> 00:19:16,422 Speaker 2: 10 years ago or 15 years ago when a lot 353 00:19:16,442 --> 00:19:20,662 Speaker 2: of liberal- climate-conscious people thought Elon Musk was a wonderful 354 00:19:20,722 --> 00:19:22,922 Speaker 2: hero who was trying to save the world with electric cars. 355 00:19:23,442 --> 00:19:25,702 Speaker 2: And it turns out people were fooled. This guy was 356 00:19:25,782 --> 00:19:30,422 Speaker 2: always this kind of percolating problem. And now he's come 357 00:19:31,202 --> 00:19:35,712 Speaker 2: out fully as a fascist ideologue. I mean, gave a 358 00:19:35,732 --> 00:19:39,092 Speaker 2: damn Hitler salute at the inauguration. And you're right. All 359 00:19:39,132 --> 00:19:43,851 Speaker 2: the Tesla drivers we know are rationalizing their choice by saying, well, 360 00:19:43,912 --> 00:19:46,421 Speaker 2: it's half this and half that. But that's not how 361 00:19:46,482 --> 00:19:49,502 Speaker 2: it works. You know, you can't be halfway and half not. 362 00:19:49,542 --> 00:19:52,401 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't understand why anybody's still driving a 363 00:19:52,442 --> 00:19:54,742 Speaker 2: Tesla or supporting this guy in any way, shape or form. 364 00:19:55,292 --> 00:19:55,631 Speaker 1: Yeah. 365 00:19:56,132 --> 00:19:56,492 Speaker 3: Okay. 366 00:19:56,831 --> 00:20:00,932 Speaker 1: I want to talk about how the Greenland stuff is connected. 367 00:20:01,101 --> 00:20:04,841 Speaker 1: to network state and why that still seems to be 368 00:20:04,861 --> 00:20:09,681 Speaker 1: a surprise to people. Like, again, it's been out loud 369 00:20:09,782 --> 00:20:12,522 Speaker 1: for a while. What does Greenland have to do with 370 00:20:12,561 --> 00:20:13,182 Speaker 1: network state? 371 00:20:14,782 --> 00:20:17,522 Speaker 2: At the heart of the network state ideology, which basically 372 00:20:17,561 --> 00:20:22,782 Speaker 2: proposes that tech billionaires should seize power in the 21st 373 00:20:22,802 --> 00:20:29,421 Speaker 2: century using technology, is colonialism. The idea of claiming more land, 374 00:20:29,581 --> 00:20:33,181 Speaker 2: of creating a new frontier, of hogging up and hoarding 375 00:20:33,242 --> 00:20:36,701 Speaker 2: resources for yourself. Greenland has a lot of different resources, 376 00:20:36,782 --> 00:20:42,561 Speaker 2: rare earths, other deposits, shipping lanes that might melt with 377 00:20:42,621 --> 00:20:47,841 Speaker 2: climate change and lucrative new trade routes. And it'll be 378 00:20:47,861 --> 00:20:50,362 Speaker 2: a nice place to live if the planet heats up, apparently. 379 00:20:50,382 --> 00:20:53,112 Speaker 2: You know, it'll melt and there'll be green, wonderful, cooler 380 00:20:53,242 --> 00:20:57,951 Speaker 2: temperatures up there. And so it's this prized piece of 381 00:20:58,012 --> 00:21:01,412 Speaker 2: land that Trump has had his eye on for quite 382 00:21:01,452 --> 00:21:04,712 Speaker 2: some time. What's happening now is the tech billionaires are 383 00:21:04,851 --> 00:21:08,292 Speaker 2: also on this idea. And some of them are backing 384 00:21:08,331 --> 00:21:11,411 Speaker 2: a project called Praxis, which had proposed to build a 385 00:21:11,512 --> 00:21:16,691 Speaker 2: new tech city on Greenland. They've been looking at the Mediterranean, 386 00:21:16,712 --> 00:21:20,252 Speaker 2: the Middle East. They looked in Dominican Republic. I'm not 387 00:21:20,292 --> 00:21:23,431 Speaker 2: really sure Praxis is a solid proposal anymore. You know, 388 00:21:23,552 --> 00:21:25,691 Speaker 2: I wrote about that early on and then Reuters did 389 00:21:25,732 --> 00:21:27,912 Speaker 2: a whole story on it. And like it was real. 390 00:21:27,932 --> 00:21:31,272 Speaker 2: And you got one of Peter Thiel's deputies as the 391 00:21:31,371 --> 00:21:35,892 Speaker 2: ambassador to Denmark. And well, you know, so everywhere you look, 392 00:21:35,932 --> 00:21:38,702 Speaker 2: you see the same group of people kind of lining 393 00:21:38,802 --> 00:21:40,361 Speaker 2: up to be a part of this. And you're starting 394 00:21:40,382 --> 00:21:42,962 Speaker 2: to always see as well. the idea for some kind 395 00:21:43,002 --> 00:21:46,462 Speaker 2: of weird new billionaire-funded city. And that is the network 396 00:21:46,482 --> 00:21:49,431 Speaker 2: state idea. In fact, they're proposing to build one on 397 00:21:49,452 --> 00:21:52,831 Speaker 2: the ruins of Gaza. Jared Kushner, Trump's own son-in-law, is 398 00:21:52,892 --> 00:21:57,512 Speaker 2: pushing that. So there's this idea, this apocalyptic idea, that 399 00:21:57,871 --> 00:22:00,601 Speaker 2: instead of digging their own personal bunkers, the billionaires have 400 00:22:00,642 --> 00:22:03,682 Speaker 2: to create new territories that will be designed to protect 401 00:22:03,782 --> 00:22:07,681 Speaker 2: them and empower them in this terrible future they're creating 402 00:22:07,722 --> 00:22:10,642 Speaker 2: with technology that Where you won't be able to live 403 00:22:10,682 --> 00:22:14,401 Speaker 2: in countries like the United States or regular cities anymore. Again, 404 00:22:14,581 --> 00:22:16,622 Speaker 2: this is an apocalyptic cult. There's no reason to believe 405 00:22:16,642 --> 00:22:19,171 Speaker 2: that has to be the future. But they seem to 406 00:22:19,232 --> 00:22:21,772 Speaker 2: have watched Elysium one too many times, and they can't 407 00:22:21,851 --> 00:22:24,151 Speaker 2: quite build one in space yet. So they're trying to 408 00:22:24,172 --> 00:22:26,891 Speaker 2: build them here on land. Yeah. 409 00:22:27,172 --> 00:22:31,211 Speaker 1: I watched this bizarre interview with Dryden Brown, I think 410 00:22:31,232 --> 00:22:35,692 Speaker 1: his name is, the guy that came up with Praxis, right? And, like, again, 411 00:22:35,752 --> 00:22:38,542 Speaker 1: I just– every time I see these guys talk, it's– 412 00:22:39,321 --> 00:22:42,222 Speaker 1: to me how anyone gives them the time of day, 413 00:22:42,282 --> 00:22:46,002 Speaker 1: let alone millions of dollars. But Peter Thiel did. And he, 414 00:22:46,182 --> 00:22:49,571 Speaker 1: he talks about this Greenland idea, both as like a 415 00:22:49,632 --> 00:22:51,472 Speaker 1: training ground for all the people that are going to 416 00:22:51,492 --> 00:22:52,911 Speaker 1: go move to Mars. 417 00:22:53,091 --> 00:22:53,331 Speaker 2: Right. 418 00:22:53,392 --> 00:22:57,472 Speaker 1: Because the like topography and climate of Greenland is like, 419 00:22:57,512 --> 00:22:59,712 Speaker 1: in his words, as close as we can get to Mars, 420 00:22:59,811 --> 00:23:02,262 Speaker 1: by the way, not true. And this guy obviously doesn't 421 00:23:02,302 --> 00:23:04,502 Speaker 1: know what he's talking about, but he's like, Oh yeah, 422 00:23:04,522 --> 00:23:06,641 Speaker 1: this is how we're going to like prep ourselves to 423 00:23:06,682 --> 00:23:11,762 Speaker 1: live on Mars and And he's like obsessive about this 424 00:23:11,861 --> 00:23:15,242 Speaker 1: colonial thing, but also this vision of him and his 425 00:23:15,422 --> 00:23:18,382 Speaker 1: friends as being like, I don't know, this, this like 426 00:23:18,442 --> 00:23:20,841 Speaker 1: idea of going back to like when men were men 427 00:23:20,902 --> 00:23:24,802 Speaker 1: and we were all pioneers and like forging the frontier 428 00:23:24,821 --> 00:23:29,311 Speaker 1: or whatever. And I'm like, okay, like, um, you live 429 00:23:29,371 --> 00:23:31,692 Speaker 1: in a house with 20 other dudes and you have 430 00:23:31,752 --> 00:23:33,611 Speaker 1: like a suit of armor at the door. 431 00:23:33,632 --> 00:23:33,712 Speaker 3: Yeah. 432 00:23:34,632 --> 00:23:35,412 Speaker 1: Yeah. 433 00:23:38,972 --> 00:23:39,512 Speaker 2: Okay, you know what? 434 00:23:39,571 --> 00:23:42,382 Speaker 1: I'm just going to share some of this video with 435 00:23:42,392 --> 00:23:45,262 Speaker 1: you so that you can see exactly what I'm talking about. 436 00:23:45,282 --> 00:23:48,542 Speaker 3: It's very cold there. It's very barren. They don't really 437 00:23:48,561 --> 00:23:50,821 Speaker 3: have trees. Greenland is very interesting. I mean, I think 438 00:23:50,841 --> 00:23:53,321 Speaker 3: there aren't many frontiers left on Earth, and there's a 439 00:23:53,361 --> 00:23:57,042 Speaker 3: particular kind of person that finds that kind of challenge 440 00:23:57,101 --> 00:23:59,522 Speaker 3: really attractive, right? It's like we have to figure out, 441 00:23:59,882 --> 00:24:02,901 Speaker 3: you know, Elon's talking about sending Starship to Mars in 442 00:24:02,942 --> 00:24:04,861 Speaker 3: like a couple of years. We have to figure out 443 00:24:04,902 --> 00:24:07,831 Speaker 3: how we're going to build a city on Mars. Greenland 444 00:24:07,912 --> 00:24:10,692 Speaker 3: is the best sort of half-step towards Mars. It's the 445 00:24:10,732 --> 00:24:13,392 Speaker 3: best sort of training ground for building a Martian society. 446 00:24:13,412 --> 00:24:20,331 Speaker 1: Okay. I want to talk about J.D. Vance because you 447 00:24:20,371 --> 00:24:22,512 Speaker 1: have quite a bit about him in the book. I 448 00:24:22,571 --> 00:24:25,611 Speaker 1: think that there's a lot of people still who are really, 449 00:24:25,632 --> 00:24:28,131 Speaker 1: really convinced that if we just get rid of Trump, 450 00:24:28,172 --> 00:24:30,941 Speaker 1: then that solves all of the problems, right? And are 451 00:24:31,002 --> 00:24:34,841 Speaker 1: not seeing this bigger picture. Or that Vance is so 452 00:24:34,902 --> 00:24:38,732 Speaker 1: much scarier and worse than... Trump. Whenever I talk to 453 00:24:38,752 --> 00:24:40,851 Speaker 1: people about this, they'll say like, oh yeah, but he 454 00:24:40,892 --> 00:24:43,371 Speaker 1: can't get elected because he's so weird and unlikable. And 455 00:24:43,392 --> 00:24:45,991 Speaker 1: I'm like, it's cute that you think elections are going 456 00:24:46,012 --> 00:24:48,272 Speaker 1: to still be a thing when all this goes down. 457 00:24:48,382 --> 00:24:53,042 Speaker 1: But like, you know, this guy is very dangerous. Tell 458 00:24:53,081 --> 00:24:56,262 Speaker 1: me why we should take him seriously as a threat. 459 00:24:57,601 --> 00:25:00,591 Speaker 2: No one took Trump seriously either in 2016. It was 460 00:25:00,632 --> 00:25:03,311 Speaker 2: a big joke. Ha, ha, ha. They're putting Donald Trump 461 00:25:03,351 --> 00:25:06,411 Speaker 2: against Hillary Clinton. This is over before it starts. A 462 00:25:06,472 --> 00:25:08,692 Speaker 2: lot of us thought that, right? We didn't see it coming. 463 00:25:09,392 --> 00:25:12,752 Speaker 2: And so I think we can never, ever again think 464 00:25:12,811 --> 00:25:18,411 Speaker 2: that someone being awful and unlikable and terrible is an 465 00:25:18,472 --> 00:25:21,302 Speaker 2: impediment to the presidency. If there's one thing we've learned 466 00:25:21,341 --> 00:25:24,282 Speaker 2: in the last 10 years, even trying to overthrow the 467 00:25:24,361 --> 00:25:28,192 Speaker 2: government of the United States— Didn't stop Trump from getting 468 00:25:28,232 --> 00:25:29,931 Speaker 2: back into power. So we need to wake up to 469 00:25:29,952 --> 00:25:32,492 Speaker 2: where we really are, y'all. Like we are not in 470 00:25:32,542 --> 00:25:36,782 Speaker 2: a place where logic and reason are the overriding concerns 471 00:25:36,882 --> 00:25:41,522 Speaker 2: for a large subset of voters. So Vance is very dangerous. 472 00:25:41,742 --> 00:25:44,492 Speaker 2: The tech bros, these billionaires will do anything to get 473 00:25:44,512 --> 00:25:46,851 Speaker 2: him elected because they'll do whatever they want. He's a 474 00:25:47,012 --> 00:25:49,911 Speaker 2: radical extremist who has quoted the ideas of Curtis Yarbrough, 475 00:25:50,272 --> 00:25:54,502 Speaker 2: specifically that Donald Trump should purge the government and defy 476 00:25:54,542 --> 00:25:56,321 Speaker 2: the courts if they try to stop him. This is 477 00:25:56,341 --> 00:25:59,782 Speaker 2: a guy who's a Harvard trained, a Yale trained lawyer 478 00:26:00,382 --> 00:26:03,201 Speaker 2: saying the president of the United States should defy the 479 00:26:03,262 --> 00:26:06,542 Speaker 2: justices of the Supreme Court. If you get this guy 480 00:26:06,581 --> 00:26:09,381 Speaker 2: in there, he'll go all the way. He'll go full Nazi. 481 00:26:09,902 --> 00:26:12,682 Speaker 2: He will try his best to make sure we have 482 00:26:12,722 --> 00:26:15,321 Speaker 2: an emergency that means that he now has full power. 483 00:26:15,762 --> 00:26:19,811 Speaker 2: He'll finish the job where Trump didn't. Trump seems mostly 484 00:26:19,871 --> 00:26:24,452 Speaker 2: interested in naps, Natalie, and crypto these days, right? And 485 00:26:24,512 --> 00:26:27,611 Speaker 2: believe me, I don't discount all the evil and harm 486 00:26:28,071 --> 00:26:33,042 Speaker 2: that Donald Trump has done. But Vance is a zealot. 487 00:26:33,672 --> 00:26:36,382 Speaker 2: He's an ideologue and is not obsessed with money. He's 488 00:26:36,422 --> 00:26:39,942 Speaker 2: obsessed with power. And he is almost entirely a creation 489 00:26:40,462 --> 00:26:43,742 Speaker 2: of Peter Thiel. At every step of his career, it's 490 00:26:43,782 --> 00:26:46,702 Speaker 2: been Peter Thiel who made him a venture capitalist instead 491 00:26:46,722 --> 00:26:49,421 Speaker 2: of a lawyer, who funded his own venture capital firm, 492 00:26:49,742 --> 00:26:51,802 Speaker 2: even though Vance was not much of a venture capitalist. 493 00:26:52,162 --> 00:26:54,821 Speaker 2: He made Vance a Catholic, even though Peter Thiel is 494 00:26:54,882 --> 00:26:57,662 Speaker 2: not a Catholic. He made him a senator. by getting 495 00:26:57,682 --> 00:27:00,282 Speaker 2: Donald Trump to endorse him, even though Vance had called 496 00:27:00,341 --> 00:27:04,052 Speaker 2: Trump America's Hitler, and he poured $ 15 million into the race, 497 00:27:04,071 --> 00:27:06,811 Speaker 2: which changed the whole dynamic. Vance was losing that Senate 498 00:27:06,831 --> 00:27:10,472 Speaker 2: race until Thiel and Trump jumped in. And then they 499 00:27:10,492 --> 00:27:14,702 Speaker 2: got him on the vice presidential slot in the 2024 election, 500 00:27:15,262 --> 00:27:18,532 Speaker 2: where they proceeded to do the whole purge that Vance 501 00:27:18,571 --> 00:27:22,052 Speaker 2: had said he should do, quoting Curtis Yarvin, by the way. J.D. 502 00:27:22,091 --> 00:27:26,512 Speaker 2: Vance quoted Curtis Yarvin. So, yeah. And also, Trump's in 503 00:27:26,532 --> 00:27:29,191 Speaker 2: very bad health. The thing everyone's celebrating, oh, Trump's not 504 00:27:29,212 --> 00:27:30,772 Speaker 2: going to make it, he's not going to last. That's 505 00:27:30,831 --> 00:27:34,111 Speaker 2: exactly the kind of dynamic that puts Vance in power. 506 00:27:34,512 --> 00:27:38,032 Speaker 2: And these billionaires are going to be so scared about 507 00:27:38,052 --> 00:27:41,101 Speaker 2: the failure of this project that Vance will be incentivized 508 00:27:41,132 --> 00:27:44,882 Speaker 2: to do his very worst. And they'll probably spend More 509 00:27:44,922 --> 00:27:47,441 Speaker 2: money than has ever been spent in the history of 510 00:27:47,522 --> 00:27:50,212 Speaker 2: the world to make this man president. So he should 511 00:27:50,232 --> 00:27:53,072 Speaker 2: not be underestimated. And he's extremely dangerous. 512 00:27:54,012 --> 00:27:54,232 Speaker 1: Yeah. 513 00:27:54,532 --> 00:27:54,792 Speaker 2: Yeah. 514 00:27:55,972 --> 00:28:00,172 Speaker 1: Can we talk about the Antichrist idea? It's related. 515 00:28:00,861 --> 00:28:03,451 Speaker 2: It's related. It shows up so much. 516 00:28:05,002 --> 00:28:08,681 Speaker 1: Yeah, like what is the obsession with the Antichrist? I 517 00:28:08,742 --> 00:28:11,422 Speaker 1: hadn't known until I read your book that there'd been 518 00:28:11,621 --> 00:28:15,782 Speaker 1: all this discourse presenting Peter Thiel as the Antichrist almost 519 00:28:15,821 --> 00:28:18,702 Speaker 1: in like a good way as well. And then he 520 00:28:18,742 --> 00:28:22,952 Speaker 1: had this whole rant about Greta Thunberg being the Antichrist. 521 00:28:23,292 --> 00:28:26,752 Speaker 2: Why does this come up so much with these guys? Well, 522 00:28:26,772 --> 00:28:28,951 Speaker 2: because of Peter Thiel. Peter Thiel's been obsessed with the 523 00:28:29,012 --> 00:28:32,372 Speaker 2: Antichrist for a while. It's now come to be his 524 00:28:32,402 --> 00:28:36,912 Speaker 2: defining obsession, I would say. He's literally traveling the earth, 525 00:28:37,571 --> 00:28:41,872 Speaker 2: giving four-day lectures on the Antichrist. He's done this in Austin, 526 00:28:42,332 --> 00:28:48,302 Speaker 2: at Harvard, at Oxford, in San Francisco, and outside the 527 00:28:48,342 --> 00:28:51,542 Speaker 2: gates of the Vatican, and in Austria. And in the 528 00:28:51,562 --> 00:28:54,422 Speaker 2: Vatican in Austria, the theologian all blasted him and said, 529 00:28:54,462 --> 00:28:57,242 Speaker 2: this is poppycock. What are you talking about? This is 530 00:28:57,282 --> 00:29:02,532 Speaker 2: like not theology. It's some kind of do-it-yourself apocalypse. Rhapsody, 531 00:29:02,592 --> 00:29:05,672 Speaker 2: he's saying. And basically what Thiel's doing in his Antichrist 532 00:29:05,692 --> 00:29:09,482 Speaker 2: speeches is portraying our current predicament as an existential battle 533 00:29:09,502 --> 00:29:13,602 Speaker 2: between good and evil. And in his upside-down, backward version 534 00:29:13,662 --> 00:29:16,902 Speaker 2: of Christianity, which I call anti-Christianity because it focuses on 535 00:29:16,942 --> 00:29:20,792 Speaker 2: the Antichrist, not on Jesus Christ, like most Christianity focuses 536 00:29:20,882 --> 00:29:24,232 Speaker 2: on Jesus, is that the tech bros are on the 537 00:29:24,272 --> 00:29:26,512 Speaker 2: side of God and everyone else who's against them is 538 00:29:26,572 --> 00:29:29,232 Speaker 2: on the side of the Antichrist. And anybody who tries 539 00:29:29,272 --> 00:29:34,462 Speaker 2: to stop tech acceleration... toward this maximal AI, eat the 540 00:29:34,502 --> 00:29:40,911 Speaker 2: world universe is threatening the continuation of humanity. And it 541 00:29:41,982 --> 00:29:44,232 Speaker 2: goes a lot of places. I mean, I've got a 542 00:29:44,272 --> 00:29:46,952 Speaker 2: transcript of his San Francisco lectures, and it's very rambling, 543 00:29:47,052 --> 00:29:49,931 Speaker 2: very strange. It shouldn't take four days to lecture on 544 00:29:49,972 --> 00:29:56,402 Speaker 2: the Antichrist. And a military industrial complex surveillance government contractor billionaire, 545 00:29:57,902 --> 00:30:00,842 Speaker 2: the co-founder of Palantir, should probably not be the person 546 00:30:00,862 --> 00:30:04,592 Speaker 2: telling us about the Antichrist, especially when his very strange 547 00:30:04,652 --> 00:30:08,402 Speaker 2: and dangerous protege, J.D. Vance, is a heartbeat away from 548 00:30:08,422 --> 00:30:10,961 Speaker 2: the presidency. Peter, are you trying to tell us something? 549 00:30:11,482 --> 00:30:13,822 Speaker 2: Blink twice if it's JD Vance. I mean, what is 550 00:30:13,842 --> 00:30:17,382 Speaker 2: he talking about? I think on the other hand, it's 551 00:30:17,422 --> 00:30:21,171 Speaker 2: an effort to make the strange ideas coming out of 552 00:30:21,192 --> 00:30:24,951 Speaker 2: Silicon Valley about the creation of an AI godlike force 553 00:30:25,352 --> 00:30:28,912 Speaker 2: that's going to give us eternal life and multi-planetary travel 554 00:30:28,952 --> 00:30:31,562 Speaker 2: and create the super abundance. It's trying to put a 555 00:30:31,602 --> 00:30:34,592 Speaker 2: Christian mask on those ideas. Right. Because in a way, 556 00:30:34,632 --> 00:30:37,092 Speaker 2: when you look at what Silicon Valley is promising via AI, 557 00:30:37,452 --> 00:30:42,262 Speaker 2: it's the Christian eschatology story. The God is coming. God's 558 00:30:42,282 --> 00:30:44,322 Speaker 2: going to grant us eternal life. And we're going to 559 00:30:44,342 --> 00:30:46,262 Speaker 2: go into the heavens, the stars, and we're going to 560 00:30:46,302 --> 00:30:50,542 Speaker 2: have abundance, paradise. I think Teal is trying to meld 561 00:30:50,582 --> 00:30:53,272 Speaker 2: the two together with a Christian mask to maintain the 562 00:30:53,332 --> 00:30:56,652 Speaker 2: alliance with the MAGA base of evangelicals. Yeah. Yeah. 563 00:30:57,642 --> 00:31:01,542 Speaker 1: It's almost like if evangelicals tried to have total control. 564 00:31:01,102 --> 00:31:01,842 Speaker 2: Over the rapture. 565 00:31:01,862 --> 00:31:06,241 Speaker 1: It's like we're going to like wait for it, but 566 00:31:06,352 --> 00:31:08,722 Speaker 1: actually we're going to manufacture it. And then we'll be 567 00:31:08,742 --> 00:31:11,712 Speaker 1: the ones that know when all this stuff is happening. 568 00:31:11,752 --> 00:31:13,872 Speaker 1: So we'll benefit from it, too. I don't know. It 569 00:31:13,912 --> 00:31:17,512 Speaker 1: just seems like a like a weird control fantasy. 570 00:31:19,372 --> 00:31:23,612 Speaker 2: Peter Thiel's Antichrist sounds a lot like Peter Thiel, or 571 00:31:23,632 --> 00:31:27,812 Speaker 2: at least like a venture capitalist from Silicon Valley. someone 572 00:31:27,852 --> 00:31:31,272 Speaker 2: who will travel the world preaching doom and apocalypse, scaring 573 00:31:31,312 --> 00:31:35,362 Speaker 2: people in order to propose a solution, a technological solution 574 00:31:35,382 --> 00:31:37,442 Speaker 2: that will be a tricky way for them to gain 575 00:31:37,502 --> 00:31:41,402 Speaker 2: power over the entire world with a guarantee of peace 576 00:31:41,482 --> 00:31:44,532 Speaker 2: and safety, right? This is all what Thiel says his 577 00:31:44,592 --> 00:31:46,552 Speaker 2: Antichrist would be. That's why he tries to point the 578 00:31:46,592 --> 00:31:50,052 Speaker 2: finger at AOC or Greta Thunberg or anyone who wants 579 00:31:50,072 --> 00:31:54,362 Speaker 2: to regulate AI. Yeah. it's quickly reversible to say, hey, 580 00:31:54,422 --> 00:31:57,562 Speaker 2: aren't you talking about yourself? I mean, literally, Palantir is 581 00:31:57,642 --> 00:32:01,742 Speaker 2: a surveillance technology company that was established after 9-11 to 582 00:32:01,782 --> 00:32:05,302 Speaker 2: guarantee peace and safety. And so it's weird. I almost 583 00:32:05,342 --> 00:32:07,482 Speaker 2: think Thiel's doing it on purpose. I think he wants 584 00:32:07,572 --> 00:32:10,592 Speaker 2: us to ask the question of whether he is the Antichrist. 585 00:32:10,652 --> 00:32:11,911 Speaker 2: I mean, there's no other reason for him to be 586 00:32:12,352 --> 00:32:15,992 Speaker 2: so closely associating his name with the Antichrist. You know, 587 00:32:16,052 --> 00:32:19,022 Speaker 2: even the Catholic Church Doesn't really talk about that stuff 588 00:32:19,082 --> 00:32:21,112 Speaker 2: anymore because it's too dark. But I think the good 589 00:32:21,122 --> 00:32:23,712 Speaker 2: thing is that, again, one of those things where apparently 590 00:32:23,772 --> 00:32:25,892 Speaker 2: no one's telling Peter Thiel, you really shouldn't be talking 591 00:32:25,952 --> 00:32:27,452 Speaker 2: about the Antichrist right now, dude. 592 00:32:27,632 --> 00:32:31,032 Speaker 1: These guys have no, no people around them anymore at all. 593 00:32:31,292 --> 00:32:33,732 Speaker 2: Yeah. He's scaring the hell out of people and waking 594 00:32:33,772 --> 00:32:35,552 Speaker 2: them up to what's really going on here. And that's 595 00:32:35,592 --> 00:32:38,822 Speaker 2: why I chose to tell people more about what he's 596 00:32:38,862 --> 00:32:39,462 Speaker 2: really saying. 597 00:32:40,082 --> 00:32:45,182 Speaker 1: It's so bizarre. Relatedly, what is it that they hate 598 00:32:45,262 --> 00:32:49,992 Speaker 1: so much about the, about? The climate movement, climate activists, 599 00:32:50,152 --> 00:32:53,492 Speaker 1: Greta Thunberg, they have such a bee in their bonnet 600 00:32:53,512 --> 00:32:55,332 Speaker 1: about it. I don't know if it's just because they 601 00:32:55,652 --> 00:32:59,472 Speaker 1: think that those people are the most against AI because 602 00:32:59,532 --> 00:33:02,992 Speaker 1: of the environmental impact of data centers and all that 603 00:33:03,042 --> 00:33:04,602 Speaker 1: kind of thing or something else. 604 00:33:06,802 --> 00:33:11,662 Speaker 2: They hate all political philosophies that call for action in 605 00:33:11,702 --> 00:33:13,182 Speaker 2: the service of the collective good. 606 00:33:13,202 --> 00:33:14,342 Speaker 1: Yeah. 607 00:33:14,362 --> 00:33:14,522 Speaker 2: Yeah. 608 00:33:15,112 --> 00:33:17,872 Speaker 1: Anything that's like not individualistic. Yeah. 609 00:33:18,652 --> 00:33:22,632 Speaker 2: They should be able to maximize their self-interest, even if 610 00:33:22,692 --> 00:33:26,232 Speaker 2: it comes at the detriment of everyone else. Even if 611 00:33:26,252 --> 00:33:30,332 Speaker 2: it destroys the earth, nothing should stand between these capitalists 612 00:33:30,852 --> 00:33:34,671 Speaker 2: and their profits and their ambitions for power. And some 613 00:33:34,712 --> 00:33:37,302 Speaker 2: of these people believe, well, we got to become multi-planetary anyway. 614 00:33:37,322 --> 00:33:39,262 Speaker 2: So this is the thing that will force us to 615 00:33:39,302 --> 00:33:43,642 Speaker 2: leave earth in order to survive. And The problem with 616 00:33:43,682 --> 00:33:45,372 Speaker 2: that is that there are no other planets where we 617 00:33:45,382 --> 00:33:46,992 Speaker 2: can live as far as we know. And it would 618 00:33:47,032 --> 00:33:49,592 Speaker 2: take thousands and thousands of years to get there. Thousands 619 00:33:49,652 --> 00:33:51,732 Speaker 2: and thousands of years on a ship probably wouldn't even 620 00:33:51,772 --> 00:33:53,732 Speaker 2: get very far before we got hit by an asteroid 621 00:33:53,772 --> 00:33:57,132 Speaker 2: or a rock or lost our oxygen supply. So there's 622 00:33:57,172 --> 00:33:59,192 Speaker 2: no way that we're all going to get out. Again, 623 00:33:59,232 --> 00:34:02,741 Speaker 2: this is an apocalyptic fantasy they're living in. But they 624 00:34:02,802 --> 00:34:05,842 Speaker 2: really cannot see past their own greed and self-interest. And 625 00:34:05,902 --> 00:34:10,241 Speaker 2: they hate the idea that the continued survival on Earth 626 00:34:10,262 --> 00:34:13,772 Speaker 2: is will require us to act in the best interests 627 00:34:13,882 --> 00:34:16,912 Speaker 2: of the majority of people here to save the planet, 628 00:34:17,132 --> 00:34:22,772 Speaker 2: to stop burning fossil fuels and pursuing destructive economic policies 629 00:34:22,832 --> 00:34:25,571 Speaker 2: and goals. And so they feel very threatened by this. 630 00:34:25,612 --> 00:34:27,031 Speaker 2: And this is why they hate democracy, by the way, 631 00:34:27,072 --> 00:34:31,221 Speaker 2: because democracy gives everybody a vote and they don't want that. 632 00:34:31,362 --> 00:34:35,471 Speaker 1: Yeah. As in so many other ways. it's like this 633 00:34:35,512 --> 00:34:37,672 Speaker 1: thing where they think they're doing something really new and 634 00:34:37,712 --> 00:34:41,151 Speaker 1: it's just like a completely tired old idea. It's like they're, 635 00:34:41,512 --> 00:34:50,882 Speaker 1: they think they've reinvented colonialism. They're disrupting just bog standard 636 00:34:51,022 --> 00:34:54,642 Speaker 1: colonialism and like the thing elites have been afraid of 637 00:34:54,701 --> 00:34:57,901 Speaker 1: since people first started talking about democracy. It's just like 638 00:34:58,012 --> 00:35:01,051 Speaker 1: the same shit over and over again, except they have 639 00:35:01,092 --> 00:35:02,752 Speaker 1: like the endless money cheat now. 640 00:35:04,942 --> 00:35:11,252 Speaker 2: They're also, you know, reviving eugenics and racism and misogyny 641 00:35:11,532 --> 00:35:17,872 Speaker 2: and apocalyptic millenarian psychosis. It's all, you know, the funny 642 00:35:17,892 --> 00:35:19,332 Speaker 2: thing is that the guys who claim they're going to 643 00:35:19,372 --> 00:35:21,252 Speaker 2: take us into the future seem to want to take 644 00:35:21,292 --> 00:35:22,872 Speaker 2: us into the past more than anything else. 645 00:35:23,152 --> 00:35:25,491 Speaker 1: Yeah, they really want to go back to like, I 646 00:35:25,512 --> 00:35:28,741 Speaker 1: don't know. The Industrial Revolution, I guess, would be a 647 00:35:29,042 --> 00:35:31,301 Speaker 1: perfect time for them. It's very strange. 648 00:35:32,201 --> 00:35:36,572 Speaker 2: Balaji Sreenivasan actually points to Ida Tarbill as one of 649 00:35:36,592 --> 00:35:39,832 Speaker 2: the main enemies of progress. 650 00:35:40,092 --> 00:35:41,752 Speaker 1: The original Antichrist. 651 00:35:42,032 --> 00:35:44,732 Speaker 2: Yeah. Because of what she did to Rockefeller. And so 652 00:35:44,792 --> 00:35:48,151 Speaker 2: right there you have this idea that capitalist power should 653 00:35:48,192 --> 00:35:51,471 Speaker 2: be unmitigated. And anyone who stands in the way of that, 654 00:35:51,752 --> 00:35:55,722 Speaker 2: like an investigative journalist, is bad. And no, she died 655 00:35:55,762 --> 00:35:58,562 Speaker 2: in like 1941. And he's still mad about her. He 656 00:35:58,602 --> 00:36:00,681 Speaker 2: has written about this quite a few times about Ida 657 00:36:00,721 --> 00:36:04,422 Speaker 2: Tarbell and what she did to Standard Oil. And it's 658 00:36:04,482 --> 00:36:07,222 Speaker 2: pretty amazing. They tell you exactly who they are by 659 00:36:07,902 --> 00:36:11,022 Speaker 2: choosing who the heroes and villains are. And they're villains 660 00:36:11,062 --> 00:36:13,782 Speaker 2: who think they're heroes. That's a big part of their mythology. 661 00:36:14,302 --> 00:36:18,102 Speaker 1: Yeah. I have to show you that I have an 662 00:36:18,181 --> 00:36:19,902 Speaker 1: Ida Tarbell tattoo right here. 663 00:36:19,922 --> 00:36:20,241 Speaker 2: Oh, wow. 664 00:36:26,762 --> 00:36:29,622 Speaker 1: The spill is a regularly recurring segment of the drilled 665 00:36:29,721 --> 00:36:32,362 Speaker 1: podcast it comes out every friday when we're not in 666 00:36:32,402 --> 00:36:35,862 Speaker 1: the middle of a narrative season if you have ideas 667 00:36:35,882 --> 00:36:38,722 Speaker 1: for folks you'd like to see us interview on here 668 00:36:38,942 --> 00:36:41,622 Speaker 1: let us know we're at drilled media on all social 669 00:36:41,661 --> 00:36:45,452 Speaker 1: media platforms or you can email me at amy at 670 00:36:45,491 --> 00:36:49,051 Speaker 1: drill.media links to all the stories we mentioned and to 671 00:36:49,092 --> 00:36:53,002 Speaker 1: pre-order my book are in the show notes The Spill 672 00:36:53,082 --> 00:36:56,931 Speaker 1: is produced by Peter Duff. Our theme song is Bird 673 00:36:56,951 --> 00:37:01,292 Speaker 1: in the Hand by Fournone. Artwork by Matthew Fleming. Our 674 00:37:01,332 --> 00:37:05,431 Speaker 1: First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton. of the First Amendment Project. 675 00:37:05,852 --> 00:37:10,372 Speaker 1: You can find transcripts of The Spill online at drilled.media. 676 00:37:10,772 --> 00:37:14,172 Speaker 1: Like the rest of Drilled, The Spill is distributed by 677 00:37:14,312 --> 00:37:19,451 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. The team there is Eric Sandler, Grace Ross, 678 00:37:19,652 --> 00:37:24,991 Speaker 1: Morgan Ratner, Owen Miller, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, Brian Shreberneck, 679 00:37:25,292 --> 00:37:26,372 Speaker 1: and Jake Flanagan. 680 00:37:30,462 --> 00:37:31,511 Speaker 2: Thank you.