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Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast. The questions asked if movies have

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Speaker 1: win inum, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism the patriarchy Zef and best

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Speaker 1: start changing it with the beck del Cast. Hello, and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the Victal Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus

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Speaker 1: and my name is Caitlin Dronte, and this is our

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Speaker 1: podcast where we talked about the well jee right again there,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Actually, you know what, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: start again. If I'm sounding fatigued, it's because we had

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Speaker 1: to watch nine hundred hours of movies for this episode

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Speaker 1: today and and this is also the third episode we

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Speaker 1: are recording today. Yeah, so it's gonna it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: a buck episode. There, the hinges are off and we

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Speaker 1: are ready to have discourse. I feel like I feel

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Speaker 1: like I got my second wind. I'm feeling very excited

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Speaker 1: about this episode and feeling excited about these movies. This

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Speaker 1: is your We're we are firmly in Caitlin's wheelos. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean you have the pictures to back it up.

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Speaker 1: I'm okay, so that we should say with the podcast

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Speaker 1: this week, so we talked about the role of women

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Speaker 1: in some of your favorite movies. We use the Betel

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Speaker 1: test as a jumping off point for our discussion. Hey,

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Speaker 1: what is the Betel test? Well, it's just this test

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Speaker 1: that you apply to movies. For example, it requires that

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Speaker 1: the movie has at least two women in it, so

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Speaker 1: already most movies fail. Those two women have to have names,

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Speaker 1: they have to speak to each other, and even more

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Speaker 1: movies fail that, and that conversation between those two women

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Speaker 1: cannot be about men. Let's demo it really quick. Sure, Hey, Caitlin, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: did you know that movie can be nine and a

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Speaker 1: half hours long and still not pass the Factel test.

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Speaker 1: That sounds alarming and crazy, but I would believe it

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Speaker 1: because it's a mainstream Hollywood film. Unbelievable, and that it

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Speaker 1: is still very cherished. Yeah, transition the movie series we're

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Speaker 1: talking about today. Hey, it's Lord of the Rings movie.

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Speaker 1: Caitlyn has dressed up as proto for Halloween. Sorry I

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Speaker 1: waked it wrong. Not Halloween, it was the midnight screening

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Speaker 1: of Return of the King. Actually, that's so much worse.

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Speaker 1: Have you I are you for other people dressed up?

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Speaker 1: Or was it just you? Some? Oh my god, not

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Speaker 1: a lot of people. Wait, sorry. That was one of

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Speaker 1: the times I dressed up as Proto. A second time

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Speaker 1: was in a movie that I made in my senior

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Speaker 1: year of high school called Car Wars Return of the Jedda.

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Speaker 1: I'm having a panic, so I had I dressed up

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Speaker 1: as I did a cameo as Frodo where I like

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Speaker 1: get out of a car and someone off screen says, Froto,

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Speaker 1: this is Return of the JEDDI not Return of the King,

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Speaker 1: and I say whoops, and then I put on the

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Speaker 1: ring and disappear. It's a hilarious visual joke. So I

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Speaker 1: dressed as Fronto for that. And then a third time

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Speaker 1: I dressed up as Froto to school as a senior

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Speaker 1: in high school. It was spirit week and you had

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Speaker 1: to dress up as your favorite character. So I dressed

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Speaker 1: up as Frodo a third time for that. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: guess in times like this you just have to say okay,

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Speaker 1: and that is good and we love it. In conclusion, oh,

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Speaker 1: I found the picture I had. It's on my Instagram, right,

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Speaker 1: I found it on your Facebook. It's uh, I forgot

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Speaker 1: you're also playing Proto because it's um we will post

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Speaker 1: it on the Becto cast Instagram I mean, we simply must.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, scared. I feel like you're all acting as

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Speaker 1: though I should be powerful, acting as I should be

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Speaker 1: embarrassed of me dressing up as photos of my nose.

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Speaker 1: I am extremely proud of this. It's good. Anyway, Let's

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Speaker 1: introduce our guest. I'm yeah, I'm sorry that we just

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Speaker 1: a really long spiral. Okay, okay, So our guest today.

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Speaker 1: She's wonderful. She is a writer, a comedian, and creator

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Speaker 1: of bad comics by Anna Anna Selena's. Hi, guys, thanks

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Speaker 1: for being here, Thanks for having me, Thank you so much. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so let's talk about your relationship to Lord's Sure. Well,

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Speaker 1: let me say this, you shouldn't be ashamed of dressing

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Speaker 1: up rod, thank you. I am uh Lord of the

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Speaker 1: Rings fan. Certainly. I like anything fantasy. I was really

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Speaker 1: into fantasy in middle school. But I am a diehard

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Speaker 1: Harry Potter fan, so I can relate because I used

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Speaker 1: to go to the midnight screenings and dress up and

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Speaker 1: the book releases and dress up, but I never really

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Speaker 1: did for Lord of the Rings. I think part of

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Speaker 1: it was like the fandom of Lord of the Rings

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Speaker 1: feels like it spans ages a bit more like in

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Speaker 1: my life. There were a lot of older men who

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Speaker 1: like The Lord of the Rings. I was like, that's

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Speaker 1: that's not for me as much. Because the books were

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Speaker 1: first published in like they a lot of parents were

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Speaker 1: really into it, but my mom was not. And so

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Speaker 1: we would watch the movies together. We like started from

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Speaker 1: the beginning and watched all the movies and theaters together. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is weird for a movie that is not about

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Speaker 1: women at all, Right, mother daughter, Yeah, bonding thing. But

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Speaker 1: I love Elijah would um, I've done an entire comedy

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Speaker 1: show about him. Well yeah really yeah, yeah. We did

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Speaker 1: a pickle hour maybe a year and a half ago,

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Speaker 1: maybe more about Elijah would like a PowerPoint presentation that

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Speaker 1: was like the backbone of the show. And I think

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Speaker 1: what you learn is his career has kept going strong.

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Speaker 1: You know, he was, he's been doing things. Yeah, he's

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Speaker 1: he's around. Sometimes I confuse him with Toby McGuire. It's

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Speaker 1: just a fact. I mean, that'll happen. I would say

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Speaker 1: he has a better career than Toby McGuire. Yeah, he listened.

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Speaker 1: He paid in Spider Man two. Yes, we all know

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Speaker 1: that was his best roal. I never saw Seveis kits

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Speaker 1: so I can't say anything about it, but Spider Man

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Speaker 1: two with good Spider Man three when he had the

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Speaker 1: emo air cut hair. But the dance scene in Spider

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Speaker 1: Man three, yeah, is iconic. Is iconic name a community,

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Speaker 1: that scene is iconic within it. That scene connects with everyone.

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Speaker 1: It is a great equal. It was a meme before me, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: what's your history with Lord of the Rings? Um? I read?

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Speaker 1: I read The Hobbit in sixth grade. My whole class

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Speaker 1: did because my teacher, I think, was really into Lord

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Speaker 1: of the Rings, but we were like not old enough

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Speaker 1: to read the actual books. And then the same as

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Speaker 1: you and I would go and see it with my mom,

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Speaker 1: specifically every year. I don't think my dad saw these

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Speaker 1: movies or had any interest in seeing them, but my

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Speaker 1: mom and I did, And I think maybe it's because

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Speaker 1: they were coming out once a year at the same

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Speaker 1: time Harry Potter movies were starting to come out. Someone

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, and I remember my mom making a

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Speaker 1: big deal of it because those were the first PG

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Speaker 1: thirteen movies I saw in theaters, and my mom was like,

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Speaker 1: you're not old enough. You're actually like this is kind

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Speaker 1: of like Forbidden Fruit, but we're going to go see

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Speaker 1: a three hour movie and you're not gonna like it,

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Speaker 1: and so but we did. I remember not really retaining

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Speaker 1: any information, but just like watching them very passively and

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Speaker 1: being like, wow, that was a lot, like just being

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Speaker 1: very ug and be like that was a lot of

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Speaker 1: images in a row. I don't know, but but I

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Speaker 1: I have never been big on fantasy, and so so

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Speaker 1: it is a bit of a slog for me. Sure

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Speaker 1: I understand it's deep fantasy too. So like Harry Potter,

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, it's about a boy and its crushes

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Speaker 1: at school. Lord of the Rings there's you just get

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Speaker 1: dropped in this complicated world. There's so there's so much lore,

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Speaker 1: and it's like, I'm not going to do the homework.

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Speaker 1: So just to give you a brief history of Caitlin's

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Speaker 1: experience with the Lord of the Rings trilogy, I did

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Speaker 1: not see Fellowship of the Ring in theaters because I did,

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Speaker 1: like I watched the trailer. That was around the time

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Speaker 1: that Harry Potter was like the Harry Potter movies were

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Speaker 1: starting to be released, and I was like, I started

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Speaker 1: in one, right, I think, so that seems right. I

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Speaker 1: had never heard of Lord of the Rings before because

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Speaker 1: I grew up under a rock and I was like,

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Speaker 1: what is this cheap Harry Potter knock off? That's what

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Speaker 1: I thought Lord of the Rings was. But then I

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Speaker 1: saw a few months after it came out on DVD,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, wait a minute, this is really good.

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Speaker 1: I like this a lot. And then I watched that

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Speaker 1: movie a bunch of times. My mom got like the

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Speaker 1: extended edition that we got, the whole box set. I

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Speaker 1: saw Two Towers in Theaters five times. I saw A

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Speaker 1: Return of the King and Theaters six times. My sister

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Speaker 1: has a cat named Precious, after what Gollum calls the ring.

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Speaker 1: It runs deep for me. Um and I have not

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Speaker 1: revisited these movies, probably in ten years or so. But

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Speaker 1: when we were all rewatching them together, I was reminded

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Speaker 1: that I can recite all of the dialogue to all

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Speaker 1: of the movies. Confirmed. We watched them all. We watched

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Speaker 1: them all with super producer Sophie. We we watched every minute. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a long day, all nine hours and twenty

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Speaker 1: minutes roughly. Yeah, boy was it nine hours and two heads?

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Speaker 1: So yeah, shall I do the recap the very brief

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Speaker 1: freaking yeah, And the interest of this not being also

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Speaker 1: nine hours long. Basically, the story takes place in Middle Earth.

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Speaker 1: It's like a very like Middle Ages, Anglo sex and

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Speaker 1: fantasy world where there's men, there's dwarves, there's elves, there's hobbits,

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Speaker 1: there's orcs. All of them are men, all of them

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Speaker 1: are male identifying. There are somehow no women in this world,

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Speaker 1: except except for some elves. Yeah. So there is a

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Speaker 1: dark lord named Sauron. He has he made a secret

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Speaker 1: ring because the power and control is is held within rings.

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Speaker 1: He used to be good, but now he's bad. I

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Speaker 1: think he was always bad. He was bad, but he

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Speaker 1: used to be Gandel's friend. But now he's bad and

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Speaker 1: he's not Gandles. That's Saramon. I'm talking about Soron. I

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Speaker 1: fantasy is an annoying genre. Okay, so Saron, do we

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Speaker 1: see him? Do we know he looks like? Is he

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Speaker 1: just an idea he has? He's like, he's a figure,

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Speaker 1: he's tall, he has a mask. We don't really know

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Speaker 1: what his face looks like in the beginning, Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: they don't specify. Oh yeah, I when she said it,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, the same, sor he becomes the

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Speaker 1: eye because okay, so he has a ring. He's poured

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Speaker 1: all of his evil and life forced into it. The

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Speaker 1: ring gets chopped off of his hand. Was him? That

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Speaker 1: was him? So then he so he effectively dies. But

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Speaker 1: because his life, the ring is basically his hor crux,

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Speaker 1: so he attaches his thank you for in terms of planters.

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Speaker 1: So because the ring survived three thousand years later, the

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Speaker 1: spirit of Saron endures. So so he becomes the fireball

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Speaker 1: the eyeball. Yeah, right, got it? Okay, because that's what

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Speaker 1: I when I think when I think Saron, Apparently I

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Speaker 1: think Saramon. But what I meant was I think of

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Speaker 1: the flaming eyeball. Right, Sarmon stands next to right, just

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Speaker 1: renames Saramon. Why why do that? Very poor? Seems unfair

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Speaker 1: name choices. Yes, it's just like all the women in

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Speaker 1: this movie are the same, like four vowels, just in

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Speaker 1: different orders. Here's my girlfriend al just like who is this? Sorry? Okay? So,

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Speaker 1: then so the ring ends up in the hands of

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Speaker 1: first Gollum and then Bilbo Baggins. Bilbo gives his ring,

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Speaker 1: which they do not know is the Ring of Power,

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Speaker 1: this like evil ring yet h he gives it to

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Speaker 1: his nephew Frodo who is our here, cutie? And this

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Speaker 1: is after Bilbo has gone off on an adventure with it.

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Speaker 1: He yeah, that was already been in three boring movies. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: confusingly because at this point we didn't know that, right,

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Speaker 1: And the less is older right and bend at a

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Speaker 1: cumber badges there. Yeah, and it's so long also, So

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Speaker 1: Gandolf Frodo and Bilbo's friend is like, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: I think this is the Ring of Power, which he confirms.

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Speaker 1: Then he's like, we gotta do something with this ring.

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Speaker 1: So they meet up in Rivendell at the Council of

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Speaker 1: El Rondo, which is a boring scene and is that

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Speaker 1: El elf elf Land? Yeah? Yeah. The representatives are like,

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Speaker 1: what shall we do? Yeah, So we've got a dwarf there,

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Speaker 1: We've got an elf there, we've got another man from

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Speaker 1: Gone Door. We've got aragorn Is there who helps out.

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Speaker 1: There also a few other hobbits, so and it basically

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Speaker 1: they have to They're like, oh, yeah, we should take

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Speaker 1: the ring to more Door to destroy because that's the

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Speaker 1: one place that it can be destroyed because if it

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Speaker 1: falls back into Saron's hands or I, then he'll regain

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Speaker 1: power and cover Middle Earth and darkness. So they're like, great,

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Speaker 1: let's have a fellowship. We'll all take this ring together

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Speaker 1: to more door. Frodo being the main ring bearer, they

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Speaker 1: go full power of myth at this point Hero's journey

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Speaker 1: to a t uh and then they get split up

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Speaker 1: at the end of the first movie. The second movie

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Speaker 1: is basically I mean the second movie. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how much. It's very important. Um Ergorn, Aerogorn, Gamble and

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Speaker 1: Leglists have to save Mary and Pippen, who are too

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Speaker 1: other hobbits that get um captured by the Urakai. Then

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Speaker 1: we are those trees. No, those are Goblin orc hybrid yelling. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of names of things that I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm here to be your Lord of the Rings dictionary

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Speaker 1: and like fan and in fantasy too, like JRR Tolkien

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Speaker 1: probably has a great reason for naming everything a very

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Speaker 1: specific thing, and that somehow makes it worse for me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he invented a whole language for this book. He invented

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Speaker 1: Elvish a door to get a life of frick get Like,

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Speaker 1: inventing a new language is for door. But you know

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Speaker 1: what do you speak it? Oh? No? But people speak Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's next level. That's next level. I'm not quite there.

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Speaker 1: We had to learn how to write our names in

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Speaker 1: Elvin in sixth grade. I remember Corey Spiby being all

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Speaker 1: this is dumb. He's like, isn't this for nerds? And

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Speaker 1: my teacher was like, no, it's not, which has just

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Speaker 1: proved my teacher was a nerd. Yeah, shout out Corey's Biby.

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Speaker 1: So so the rest of the second movie, Frodo in

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Speaker 1: Sam his best friend Slash Gardener go off together. They're

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Speaker 1: heading towards more door. The power dynamics of their relationship

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Speaker 1: is question refusing because like Frodo is Sam's boss, but

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Speaker 1: also their friends. Are we beating around the bush on this? Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll get to the context of their friendship later, because

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Speaker 1: there's a I'm curious. I mean, if listen, if we

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Speaker 1: have listeners who, first of all, sorry I called you dorks.

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Speaker 1: Only time I call our listeners dorks, they get very

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Speaker 1: upset with me. But sometimes I gotta tell you I

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Speaker 1: have to do it to you. Sometimes you're you guys

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Speaker 1: are dorks. But but if we do have anyone who

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Speaker 1: has read the books, I'd be interested in examining, like

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Speaker 1: some of the subtexts of the relationships in the movies

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Speaker 1: as opposed to the books, because I my guests would

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Speaker 1: be that the subtext in the books are not as

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Speaker 1: lissit and homo erotic as they are in the movies.

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Speaker 1: But we'll get to of that too. Sure. So Sam

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Speaker 1: and Frodo are heading towards more to Or they kind

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Speaker 1: of like split off from the group and head there alone,

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Speaker 1: and then they meet up with Gollum, who's being troublesome.

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Speaker 1: And then the third movie is like everyone's trying to

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Speaker 1: get closer to more Door. There's some battles, all kinds

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Speaker 1: of ship happens. It's I'm not doing a good job

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Speaker 1: with this recap, but because I'm skipping over, you know,

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Speaker 1: nine hours worth of content, but right wild because it

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Speaker 1: sometimes takes longer for us to recap an hour and

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Speaker 1: a half movie, and it's almost like not a lot. Actually, well,

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Speaker 1: that whole battle at the end is like thirty minutes.

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Speaker 1: It's very long, at the end of which they do

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Speaker 1: fulfill their mission. Frodo finally tosses the ring into Mountain

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Speaker 1: Doom after a little scuffle with Gollum, and then everything

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Speaker 1: is fixed. And then there's about thirteen conclusions to the story,

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Speaker 1: which makes sense. I mean, it's a very long story.

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Speaker 1: It is funny how many are You're just like, because

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Speaker 1: it keeps the endings. I think it's because the endings

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Speaker 1: keep fading to black. Yeah, and then especially after you've

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Speaker 1: been watching for nine and a half hours, it's good.

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Speaker 1: It's like, we know it's good. Now do we really

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Speaker 1: have to see everything wrap up? But the last ending

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Speaker 1: does suck me up a little bit. When you see

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Speaker 1: Sam and the girl from the first movie and their

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Speaker 1: kids and the feet are huge, just like, it's that

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Speaker 1: sucks you up a little. I cried, Yeah, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I don't like it because I'm like, do you really

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Speaker 1: love that woman? That's true? I don't know. I just

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Speaker 1: I felt noting for seven hours. I hadn't felt the

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Speaker 1: thing in seven hours, and then I was just like, oh,

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Speaker 1: their lives can go on. So I skipped over a lot,

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Speaker 1: including all of the female all three of the female characters,

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Speaker 1: and it's made because they're hardly consequential to the story.

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Speaker 1: But there are a few of them, and they do

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Speaker 1: some stuff here and there, but kind of not really

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Speaker 1: which we'll talk about um. But yeah, that's effectively the story.

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Speaker 1: Good people set out to destroy evil and then they

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Speaker 1: destroy evil. So let's take a quick break and then

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Speaker 1: we will return to Middle Earth for the discussion. Do okay,

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Speaker 1: we'll be right back, and we're back. Okay, so we

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Speaker 1: have oh wait, you know what Gollum. That's who we

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Speaker 1: left out of well, I mentioned him, but I really

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Speaker 1: doubt it. Everyone's favorite part is cute about on the

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Speaker 1: daily I guess last week when we were on it

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Speaker 1: together is cute. The cutest boy in the movie is

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Speaker 1: the cutest Orlando Bloom. Okay, I my crush is from

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Speaker 1: this movie because even if I don't like a movie,

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Speaker 1: I've got a crush on someone. Gollum was a crush,

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Speaker 1: Orlando Bloom was a cry and who else? Oh, in

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Speaker 1: like Elijah would was like, Frodo is such a cutie

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Speaker 1: pie and he has great hair and beautiful eyes. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: his eyes are beautiful, but also I found him to

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Speaker 1: be I just think Frodo and Sam feel a little

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Speaker 1: gender fluid in the movie gender fluid. Yeah, I don't. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that's giving it a lot of credit, a lot more

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Speaker 1: credit than it deserves. But um, Frodo in particular, in

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Speaker 1: my mind watching I was like, yeah, I could see

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Speaker 1: myself in that. Well, I would argue, well, I think

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Speaker 1: Hobbits of all of the races that we see, which

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Speaker 1: are all white people except for the bad guys that

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Speaker 1: have dark skin, um of those hobbits are like the

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Speaker 1: least agro you know. They're like that's like just farm

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Speaker 1: and like, you know, live off the land. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: have little hobbit holes and we're going to be nice.

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Speaker 1: They love to dance, Yeah, they love to dang out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's their purpose, right, So at least they're displaying the

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Speaker 1: least amount of toxic masculinity of all of the characters

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Speaker 1: we see in the movies. Well, yeah, so let's get

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Speaker 1: into that really quickly. So it has been said by

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Speaker 1: many that there are gay undertones to Frodo and Sam's friendship.

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Speaker 1: I think that the movie does at sometimes go out

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Speaker 1: of its way a little bit to hit that point

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Speaker 1: kind of hard, you think the movie, I think the movie. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that the movie is implying it a little

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Speaker 1: bit without implying it in the way that movies sometimes do,

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Speaker 1: where male friendships are portrayed on screen as being kind

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Speaker 1: of homo erotic. And I and Caitlin and I were

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Speaker 1: talking about this a little bit before we started recording,

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Speaker 1: and and it's weird. I think that you can even

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Speaker 1: draw a line from scenes that we see between Sam

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Speaker 1: and Frodo, which are nice scenes, like I have no

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Speaker 1: issue with the actual scene itself or the friendship or

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Speaker 1: anything like that, but you can almost draw a line

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Speaker 1: from there to like a jet Apatow buddy comedy of like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what are other examples of male friendships we see in cinema?

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Speaker 1: And like where you have let me see, I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to other big example correctly, Yeah, where it's like there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of like, oh, we're friends, let me care

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Speaker 1: about each other, no homo where this isn't the type

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Speaker 1: of movie that would say that, but there's I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I see what you're saying. I think there's an element

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Speaker 1: of a we care about each other more than anything else,

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Speaker 1: which can carry a bit of a like homorotic undertone.

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Speaker 1: And I think I don't give Peter Jackson in particular

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Speaker 1: any credit for setting that up in any kind of

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Speaker 1: progressive way, but I think because the performances are so

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Speaker 1: heartfelt and the characters themselves are so emotional and sweet

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Speaker 1: and earnest, The result is this on adult traded love

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Speaker 1: for each other free from toxic masculinity, which is like

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Speaker 1: in real life. If Sam and Frodo lived, I think

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Speaker 1: they would experiment because I don't think they would have

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Speaker 1: hang ups. Maybe Sam more, I don't know. I mean

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Speaker 1: that in let me be clear, if these two Hobbits

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Speaker 1: lived in our real world, if we saw them at

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Speaker 1: the frolic Room Tonight Room, that's just the bar around

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Speaker 1: here that I like the best. It's a fun little guy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, Yeah, I mean. And then something I thought

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Speaker 1: was really great with Hobbits in particular is and you

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Speaker 1: were touching on this a little earlier, Gutland. It's like

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Speaker 1: they are so openly emotional in a way that we

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Speaker 1: don't see Eric Gorn. We definitely don't see Leglis a

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Speaker 1: k A hacker computer boy. But I think that if

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Speaker 1: we bring Leglis into the real world, he's straight up

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Speaker 1: Mr Robot because he's always every time people are having

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Speaker 1: feelings like us, is standing to the side like we

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Speaker 1: need to go. He's not mean about it. But we

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Speaker 1: do not see him cry. We don't. But the Hobbits

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Speaker 1: are are very emotionally expressive. We see them cry a lot.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Froto is just sobbing for quite a bit

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Speaker 1: of yeah yeah, like they're there, and and Mary and

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Speaker 1: Pippen as well to a lesser extent. But I think

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Speaker 1: it's just because they're like more humorous characters, but we

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Speaker 1: see them cry multiple times, and so I guess I

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Speaker 1: can't say exactly what it is, but it's something about

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Speaker 1: the tone of the scenes between Froto and Sam that

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Speaker 1: are a little bit different than Mary and Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: scenes we see between, even if they are emotionally charged scenes,

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Speaker 1: it's laid on a little bit thicker for those two characters,

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Speaker 1: probably because they're more main characters. I don't know that.

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Speaker 1: And it is Frotos. His burden is being the ring bearer,

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Speaker 1: so like he carries the most steaks, you could say,

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Speaker 1: and the stakes in this story are super high. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's like a world so because he and Sam is

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Speaker 1: with him every step of the way, I would say

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Speaker 1: that the stakes are so high and there's so much

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Speaker 1: emotion attached to whether or not they accomplish this quest

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Speaker 1: that I think it makes sense for them to have

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Speaker 1: such like emotionally impactful scenes because they're carrying the weight

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Speaker 1: of the world on their shoulders. I think so. In

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Speaker 1: terms of Freda and Sam's relationship, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: erase or deny the existence of a same sex relationship

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Speaker 1: if that is in fact what it is. But I

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Speaker 1: think there's a tendency to see a close male platonic

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Speaker 1: friendship and label it as gay, which I would argue.

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Speaker 1: I think that can be harmful because it kind of

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Speaker 1: implies that men are not allowed to or that it's

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Speaker 1: not normal to have a close platon friendship between two

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Speaker 1: straight men, or between like a gay man and a

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Speaker 1: straight man. Because men feeling like they can't have closeness

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Speaker 1: and emotional intimacy with other men in a non sexual way,

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Speaker 1: I think contributes to toxic masculinity, because I mean, toxic

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Speaker 1: masculinity stems from a lot of different things. One of

422
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: them is men suppressing their feelings and thinking they can't

423
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: be emotionally vulnerable with people, especially other men, because that's

424
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 1: a sign of weakness. I totally agree with you, and

425
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 1: I think I love you man is a response to that.

426
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to over credit jet Apatow

427
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: because he's super problematic, but I think he's horrible. But

428
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,439
Speaker 1: I think I love you man was an attempt to

429
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: be like, whoa, No, men can be emotionally bound as

430
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: best friends and it's and it's not weird. Guys. Look,

431
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 1: he's also married. That is what I was attempting to

432
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,719
Speaker 1: say earlier. And I feel like I need I needed

433
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: it set up in a way and had not been

434
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: set up, and I felt very secure about it. But yeah,

435
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 1: I think that that is true where it's like, because

436
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: those movies did come out later, it's like, oh, let's

437
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: normalize male friendship, but the asterisks in those movies like,

438
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: but it's not gay like the way Appata does it

439
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: is homophobic because he's like, yeah, straight dudes can be

440
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: friends in a way that's not gay coded. Yea. And

441
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: that does seem in a way a response to scenes

442
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: like the way and I can't like, I literally can't

443
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: describe exactly what it is, but the tone of those

444
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: scenes to me is different and in a way that

445
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 1: I always liked, Like I I love, I'm fully here

446
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: for Sam and Frodo in the real world. I think

447
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: what you both are saying is true in exists sort

448
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: of parallel because you Jamie, you see it, you feel it,

449
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: and I'm sure no part of you was like, men

450
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: can't be friends and if they're friends, it's gay. But

451
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: there is the I understand Kalen you too. There is

452
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: that danger when at is the narrative we're pushing that

453
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: people will read it and say, well, I guess guys

454
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 1: can't be friends because if we try and put it

455
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: in things, it'll just be seen as homo erotic um.

456
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: But I think they're both true. But I do want

457
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 1: to add what's interesting. I know this is not supposed

458
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: to be about I love you man, but there is

459
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: a gay character. There are a few gay characters and

460
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: I love you man. And even that, to me was

461
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: super problematic because Andy Sandberg plays like, okay, you'd put

462
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 1: he's broy. What it's like great. The movie is trying

463
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: to be like, look how innovative we are by having

464
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: a broy queer character. Yeah, has never done a good

465
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 1: thing in his life. I think we can agree. I

466
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,040
Speaker 1: haven't seen Freaks and Gigs because I can't look at

467
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: Seth Rogum without wanting to pull my own head off.

468
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: And yeah, the time to watch it may have passed.

469
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: Is it done? Should I not bother? I like Martin Starr.

470
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: Mart He's a good one. He seems great. It was

471
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 1: good when I saw it when I was like fifteen. Yeah,

472
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: I haven't revisited it in a long time, but um yeah.

473
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: So just to finish this thought, I just like to

474
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: see like a close male friendship on screen and automatically,

475
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: like automatically assume that it's like a gay sexual relationship.

476
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: I just think can doesn't necessarily have to, but it

477
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: can further perpetuate the idea that it's like weird or

478
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: abnormal to have straight men have emotional closeness with other

479
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: straight men, and I think that helps keep toxic masculinity alive.

480
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: And well, have I been guilty of doing this myself

481
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 1: where I've seen two men on screen who are friends

482
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: and like the other gay. Yes, I have done that.

483
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: I'm guilty of that. But then there's the separate analog

484
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,959
Speaker 1: of like fan culture, which I think is divorced from

485
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: what we were just talking about. There's so many different

486
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: ways to look at this one relationship. Erotic fan fiction

487
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: in particular, which is hot in rules. It's oh, it's

488
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: super hot and rules, but it it took Frodo Sam

489
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: and it built world, a whole world, whole new world,

490
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: whole horny new for all um, and then I ran

491
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: this this whole, you know, train of thought that I

492
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: have about their relationship. I ran it past my friend

493
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: j T, friend of the cast Twilight episode, and he said, yeah,

494
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: that's all well and good, but keep in mind that

495
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: queer people seeing media like this that has a close

496
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: male friendship will like ship those two characters together because

497
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 1: there's such a lack of visibility of queer characters in

498
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: mainstream media that they'll say, yeah, those two men are gay,

499
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: and I see myself represented in their relationship, because that's

500
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 1: pretty much all I have to choose from, right, So

501
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: I think if the queer community is seeing relationships like

502
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: that and saying like, yeah, I see gay undertones in that,

503
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 1: like they know better than straight people, so I think

504
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: it's maybe more appropriate it when that happens. Yeah, this

505
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings in particular, and I guess, like

506
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: I guess I would extend this to a lot of

507
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: fantasy and and possibly sci fi as well. Is there's

508
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 1: like so many different ways to watch it, Like I

509
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: feel like almost more so than other genres when you're

510
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: looking at hyper fictional characters, like it almost depends on

511
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: who you are and what your life experiences based on

512
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: how you're going to view it. Because if you're you know,

513
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: like a queer person wanting to see yourself represented in

514
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: a movie like this, and aren't seeing yourself explicitly represented,

515
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: then it makes sense that you would see that scene

516
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: and be like, oh cool, I feel at least a

517
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: little bit scene because of how I'm viewing this scene.

518
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: Where if you're a young toxic man who sees that

519
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: and is off put by it, and it is like

520
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: that you know, sees that same friendship and thinks I'm

521
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,239
Speaker 1: less likely to want to be like close friends with

522
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: another man because I don't want to be seen in

523
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: this way. So it's it depends on who you are,

524
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 1: what your life experiences. Let me ask you this true

525
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: right that lack of visibility. Is it possible to make

526
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: a feminist argument for Lord of the Rings using sort

527
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: of that same logic of like, well, there aren't a

528
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: lot of, um, you know, obvious opportunities here for feminist visibility,

529
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: But are there ways in which toxic masculinity is subverted

530
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: that makes this in some way a feminist movie? I

531
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: think that in the way the Hobbits in particular subvert

532
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: masculinity worked for me, but just because it subverts masculinity

533
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's feminist. But then there's the I am

534
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: no man argument with and I'm going to try to

535
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: say this name, but it is all soft voweli there

536
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: owen a owen, which is what you're saying is how

537
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: you pronounced you and McGregor's name is Oh yeah. I'd

538
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: like to issue a formal apology to all of our

539
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: Scottish fans who slam my mention saying it's allan McGregor

540
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: or you and McGregor, which I had. I also just

541
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: made mouth thoses that time I swarke. I was not

542
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: trying to say his name, it's you and McGregor. I

543
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: had said it correctly a year previously, and then in

544
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: the year between recording that and the time I funked

545
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: it up nine times I met him and parked with

546
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 1: his girlfriend for six months, and then I learned how

547
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: to say his name the total wrong way, and everyone

548
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: got mad at But how wasn't she saying his name

549
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: all the time. She was saying his name, and she

550
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: was saying it correctly, obviously, But I was like, you

551
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: know what I should say? Well, you know, what's your name?

552
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: Scorci Ronan, who was in Brooklyn Ronan another movie. There

553
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: we go h o O N is that it win

554
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: not to be confused with Arwin the other that's annoying.

555
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 1: You don't do that, and you're, hey, if you're writing something,

556
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: don't make everyone's name the same name, writing one oh

557
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: one different first let that should be left behind you

558
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: in the second grade where you've got like Stephanie Oh

559
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: and Stephanie t um. Anyways, you can make the I

560
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: have the thing because I tried to research, like, okay,

561
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: are there feminist arguments for this series and they seem

562
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: to mostly fall to a Owen because she is a

563
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: woman we see in combat and she also says and

564
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: I feel like with these arguments they tend to boil

565
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 1: down to like one or two things the character says

566
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 1: in the space of nine hours. But she says the

567
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: line I am no man, and that seems to be

568
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 1: the core. They're like, well, someone said they weren't a

569
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: man and that was true. Also, she rode a horse,

570
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,280
Speaker 1: so it's a feminist text. Well, yeah, riding a horse,

571
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: driving a car, right, women can do it all. Yeah,

572
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: I like that character the same, and she don't want

573
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: to text in love with her and he's like sorry,

574
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: which fine, yeah, oh wait what I don't I mean,

575
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: it's your your take on Vigo. I have a skewed

576
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: view of Vigo because he made my mom so horny

577
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 1: that she almost died like that. That's why we saught

578
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: with our moms. Something you want to do? Yeah, because

579
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: it's like Orlando for the young girls, Vigo for the

580
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: mom and Frodo you know, Elijah for an evening in between.

581
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: Frodo is like basically I was like, yeah, if you

582
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 1: had a crush on Harry Potter, Elijah, what's gonna give

583
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 1: you that vibe as well? Because he's the size of

584
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: a ten year olds according to this movie. Yeah, um,

585
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: so you're like, you know, I see it and they

586
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: have piercing blue eyes. Thank you for bringing that up. Sorry,

587
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: I have to interrupt for a moment because is okay.

588
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,439
Speaker 1: When I was listing all the characters, all the main

589
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: named characters in this movie, I ended up color coding

590
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: their names in my notes based on the color of

591
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: their eyes, because nearly every single character in this movie

592
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: has blue eyes. Go back and watch it. I did

593
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: not notice this until my viewing of this trilogy, but Frodo,

594
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: Sam Wise, Gandolf, Mary Pippin, Arragorn, Leglis, Boromir, Gollum, Grima,

595
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 1: worm Tongue, the Steward of Gondora, I forget his name,

596
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: l Round farremre King, Theoden bilbo Is steel Door, how dear,

597
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 1: he's one of the elves. Arwin, Gladriel and a Owen,

598
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 1: plus a bunch of other like secondary characters all have

599
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: blue eyes. Well, I don't know if you know this,

600
00:36:53,360 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: but Middle Earth is an area should be there. I

601
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,719
Speaker 1: personally aspire to be a blue eyed hobbit, hobbit or

602
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,839
Speaker 1: any I'd take blue eyed elf, blue eyed anything. We'll

603
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: get to the racism in this movie Elf, but well,

604
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 1: because everything there's a lot of Yeah, there's weird anyways.

605
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, pretty much all the good guys and some

606
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: of the bad guys in this movie have blue eyes.

607
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: The only good guys in this movie who do not

608
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: have blue eyes are Gimli Amer. If anyone knows how

609
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: to say it, it's me and and Treebeard. Name it.

610
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,359
Speaker 1: It's cheating. Oh that's that's too funny of a name.

611
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: But I've got notes on that name, which is that

612
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 1: it's so funny. Another fun fact about eye color in

613
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,719
Speaker 1: this movie, So Orlando Bloom has brown eyes. He was

614
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: given blue context so that legal Us would have blue

615
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: eyes in this movie because you know, this is an

616
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 1: area nation and whatever. But Orlando Bloom hated his blue

617
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: contexts and sometimes they would forget to put them in,

618
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 1: so whenever they did, he would just not tell anyone

619
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 1: and then the movie would get shot with him in

620
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 1: his brown eyes. So there are some scenes where he

621
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: has brown eyes and they didn't fix it in post

622
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: or anything like that. So that's really funny. What a

623
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: weird choice that seems easy to fix. I know I

624
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: was gonna say earlier before we got into the blue

625
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: eyes theory that because of Airgorn, Airgorn was I think

626
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: there for the moms. Casting wise, Vigo was there to

627
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: make your mom for Roth, and I think he was

628
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: successful in a lot in the case of many moms.

629
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: But I think that two thousand and three was probably

630
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,359
Speaker 1: one of my mom's horny or cinematic years, because that's

631
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 1: also the year where Captain Jack Sparrow debuted. Um that

632
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 1: made a lot of moms right, something for the mom,

633
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 1: something for the And then again in that same movie

634
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: Orlandos for the younger set. Yeah, there's a clear formula

635
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 1: operating in Hollywood at this time. Absolutely, yeah, whiz. Anyways, well, uh,

636
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: I just want everyone to know that we do fully

637
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: acknowledge the irony of having only talked about men so

638
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: far on a podcast about women. Tried to talk about

639
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 1: a Yeah, so let's take so let's just take a

640
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: quick break and when we come back, we'll talk about

641
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: the freaking women. The women A k Okay, So we'll

642
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: take a quick break and we'll be right back and

643
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: we're back. So let's talk about the female characters in

644
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings. There are exactly three four if

645
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: you count Rosie who Sam Mary's at the end, but

646
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 1: I don't. I would say you could so easily cut

647
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: her out of the story with very little impact besides

648
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,720
Speaker 1: me crying at the end. It's fine. So I feel

649
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 1: like I don't know if this is true or not,

650
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 1: but I feel like this movie cares less about women

651
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,359
Speaker 1: being in the story than maybe any movie we've come

652
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: across so far. But in a way that is like

653
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: it's confusing. I'm trying. I feel like we've maybe covered

654
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: one movie where I also got this vibe where the

655
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 1: movie is not outwardly hateful of women really at any point,

656
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: but it's just a world war. Women don't exist until

657
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: you get to elve and the Right, and then that

658
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:47,720
Speaker 1: even still there's very few two Elves, and then glad

659
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: Reel only gets a couple of minutes of screen time.

660
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: Glad Reel is Kate Blanchett. She's mainly used for exposition

661
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,919
Speaker 1: more important, and this is I don't know if there's

662
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: a question you can answer if like you probably can't.

663
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: Is she more important though, in the world of Lord

664
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 1: of the Rings than we get in the movies. I

665
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 1: don't super know that, having not read the books, I

666
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: tapped out and I don't even know. She's not even

667
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 1: she's in the Hobbit movies, but not in the Hobbit book.

668
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: I don't think um because she's presented yeah by I

669
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 1: mean she's an exposition. Yeah, that pure and simple. But

670
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 1: I felt watching it that she was somehow super powerful.

671
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: She's well, she's powerful, but in the context of the story,

672
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: she's given so little focus that I think you could

673
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: easily remove her or replace her like function with like

674
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 1: l Rondo. Because so her thing is she's the first

675
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 1: voice you hear in the movie, because she does provide

676
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,879
Speaker 1: all the voice over narration in the very beginning, where

677
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: she's like doing all the world building and like, here's

678
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: what Middle Earth is and there's some fucking rings and ship.

679
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: We do meet her on screen in Fellowship of the Ring.

680
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: She's one of the like leader is at Las Lorean.

681
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 1: But I mean, talk about presenting a character as virginal

682
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: where she is dressed in all white and she's literally

683
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: glowing with having never fucked like that, do you think

684
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: she's never fucked? I think that there. I think that

685
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: it could be there could be a very easy argument

686
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: made of like she could have fucked. But I'm just like,

687
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 1: strictly presentation rise it's like the classically virginal, like it

688
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: almost fair maiden for sure, right. So and then so

689
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: the first time we meet her on screen in Las Lorean,

690
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: where she's like the she's described as being like an

691
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,280
Speaker 1: elf witch and a sorceress, which sounds like a sandwich

692
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: of elf like some of the Keebler keel. So when

693
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: we see her on screen for the first time, she's like,

694
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: she's like being escorted by a male elf who I

695
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: don't know if this is true or not. I think

696
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: that might be her like elf husband. I'm not sure

697
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: there is a dude with her, and he seems to

698
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: be like an elf king and she's sort of like

699
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,240
Speaker 1: the elf queen. I don't know, but she is definitely

700
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 1: like very like fair maiden. But she's all she's spoken

701
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: about as like being very powerful, highly regarded. Uh so

702
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: it is weird that like, oh, but a man has

703
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: to hold her hand either she doesn't she's a pacifist.

704
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: But then that just makes it a jarring movie experience

705
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: where I'm like, you're not even going to comment on

706
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: the fact that women have nothing to do, know, there

707
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: nowhere in this whole world. It's like if we were

708
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: surrounded by like if there was like the same thing

709
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: was in the whole world and we just never acknowledged it.

710
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: Like every we're just like, oh, we're living as if

711
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 1: they don't exist, because they don't exist. Like well, female

712
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: characters written by men wouldn't notice that, because men don't

713
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: notice when they write stories with only men in them. Um, right,

714
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: because there's there are three female characters in this movie

715
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: worth talking about and forty male characters who are like

716
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: named and like, not all of them are fleshed out fully,

717
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 1: but like every single person in the In the fellowship,

718
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: it's nine people and they're all male. It's wild. So

719
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: the last thing. I'm glad Reel. She appears again throughout

720
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: the course of the movies. Usually she's talking to l Rond,

721
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: but they're never on screen together. They have this is

722
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 1: the Elf king guy in Rivendel. Yes, so there's different

723
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 1: like Elf realms, Brunette elf is that. Yeah, that's Rwin's dad.

724
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 1: It does feel like the Elfish Kingdom is a patriarchy. Yes,

725
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 1: I mean the whole the structure of every community in

726
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: this movie is, which I think is made really clear

727
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: through Arwin's character too. Sorry I said Arwyn, not out

728
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 1: not that well, there's Arwin. Yeah, I know, I know.

729
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: Stupid if you only have to come up with three

730
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: female names and a four D character and two names

731
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 1: sound exactly the same. For Galadriel, the one scene that

732
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: stuck out to me where it seems like she had

733
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: the most to do was the scene she has with

734
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:29,680
Speaker 1: Frodo where Frodo's I don't know, tiptoe and around, just

735
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,879
Speaker 1: done a little stroll with his little ring has just

736
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 1: passed away. Gandalf did that thing where he's like sea

737
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,799
Speaker 1: and dropped off a cliff. It was like, you're not

738
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: even gonna try and okay, but then it's he's fine. Whatever.

739
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: So there's a scene between Galadriel and Frodo where basically

740
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: Galadriel is tempted by the rings power but then overcomes

741
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 1: that temptation and it's basically like I passed the test

742
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,720
Speaker 1: and like high fives herself. Certainly not the Bechdel test,

743
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 1: wish the ring test. And then she also has like

744
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 1: another Harry Pottery thing where she's like, I have a

745
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: pen sieve. Is that the Harry Potter thing where you

746
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 1: can you're that you can look into your own memories

747
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: with a pensive right? So but she but did she

748
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: just show the future? She has the gift of foresight

749
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 1: like many elves seemed to and that's a raven who

750
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 1: might be and we don't know. It's not fully explored,

751
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:31,880
Speaker 1: but I would like to think that's a raven is

752
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: an extension of the Lord of the of course Bafely,

753
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: I think we can say that. So, yeah, she has

754
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 1: that scene where she shows like weakness and being like, yes,

755
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: I would be tempted if I had the ring, because

756
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: Forrhoto is like I don't really like this whole ring

757
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 1: bearer thing, why don't you take it? Glad reel like

758
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: I want to be a flower girl right there, It's like,

759
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: seems like a more jobs they give it. So, not

760
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: to defend the sexism of this movie, there's a reason

761
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,919
Speaker 1: that Hobbits are best suited to carry the ring, right,

762
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: which is they're so pure of heart, right right, they're

763
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,800
Speaker 1: resilient to its evil. Yes, what's weird is that only

764
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 1: hobbit men were available for that duty. But that is

765
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: my giving a little space too well on that. So

766
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 1: you could maybe make an argument that, like, yeah, why

767
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 1: wouldn't a woman have been considered for this, because we've

768
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 1: seen throughout history women being less corrupted by power, But

769
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: maybe that's only because women have never been given power,

770
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: so we don't know how corruptible they are. But we

771
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: could ship up, yeah we could, right right right, But yeah,

772
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: that is that is Bilbo presumably wouldn't think of that

773
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 1: because he's just like my buddies. Do you know anything

774
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 1: about well and also his nephew, anything about front of

775
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: parents um or like he why he must be an

776
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: orphan I'm guessing I don't know, Yeah, because Billbo is

777
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:03,359
Speaker 1: his uncle yeah, and there's no parents intervening, being like,

778
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 1: don't give him the worst thing ever, that's true. No

779
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: one cares that he's going. I think his only family

780
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: is well. And Bilbo also does the rudest thing ever.

781
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: He's such a drama queen. He when he goes to

782
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: his own birthday at the beginning of the Fellowship of

783
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: the Ring and he's like, hey, everybody, just telling you

784
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: I'm leaving forever power and then he disappears and leaves

785
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: with lets say goodbye to literally anyone. It was pretty rude. Yeah,

786
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 1: it was a weird move. But he's a little corrupted

787
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 1: by that point. He is, I think he yeah, like

788
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: he gets nervous around the Ring and he's like, I

789
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: have to get the funk out of here. He feels it.

790
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: He does feels it by the end to write, right,

791
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 1: we just got word from super producer Sophie that Froto's

792
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: parents drowned. Oh go wait, in like the Hobbit, No,

793
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: because we don't meet Froto or any I don't think

794
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: any of the other Baggins is in the Hobbit. There's

795
00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 1: probably some backstory somewhere in the books that we learned,

796
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: or maybe like an appendacees or something. Frodo is just

797
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: another example that I think you could apply to this

798
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: almost this whole world, because gender is dealt with in

799
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: such a passive way in this entire world where you

800
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:17,240
Speaker 1: could gender switch. Most of the characters in these movies,

801
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: I think that they're with no impact. I think like

802
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 1: characters like are Gorn to be a little bit trickier.

803
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,880
Speaker 1: Characters directly involved in the patriarchy at least seemed to

804
00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: be making some sort of commentary. But all of the Hobbits,

805
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 1: I would say, because they are so also emotionally open.

806
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: They're all nice, not involved in overt love triangles, and

807
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:43,919
Speaker 1: they're not oppressing. They're not doing like they're Frodo could

808
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: easily be a female character with really nothing about the

809
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:52,919
Speaker 1: story changing. Well, yes, about this story changing, right, If

810
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: the writers of the Lord of the Rings movies had

811
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 1: made Frodo or a girl, it would certainly have been

812
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 1: a different movie because and we're writing it. Oh, I

813
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,120
Speaker 1: don't think it would be the same. Yeah, no, it

814
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be treated. I don't think that a studio

815
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 1: would invest like a jillion dollars into a female lead

816
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 1: film franchise in two thousand and one, especially based on

817
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 1: because the source material, like all of the like old

818
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 1: school fans of Lord of the Rings would be like, oh,

819
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,760
Speaker 1: Peter Jackson, fran Walsh a woman and Philip A. Boyan's

820
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: a woman co wrote these movies. What so it's one

821
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: man and two women doing most of the Oh my god,

822
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: Well this just gets back to, uh, not all women are.

823
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 1: That is mind going because the movie itself could have

824
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 1: made the choice to make these women more important. Well

825
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: it did because from what I understand, again, haven't read

826
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: the books, so I might be a little wrong on this,

827
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 1: but like our Win's involvement in the story in the

828
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: books is like hardly there at all, and they took

829
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 1: mostly stuff from the appendices and beefed up her character

830
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: much more than it had been in the books. Is

831
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: Rwin liv Tyler? Yeah, but that feels like more of

832
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:17,120
Speaker 1: a movie thing because they're like, yeah, that's a she's

833
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,919
Speaker 1: a tricky character. Because it's like I, I, of course

834
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: I want to see women in these movies more. But

835
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: the way that they amplify her character is so like

836
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 1: there's such an agenda behind it that it's like almost

837
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: like I don't know if I would prefer more general neutrality,

838
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 1: or to see live Tyler specifically, so that she can

839
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 1: be you know, like coveted and her father can just

840
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: be like, I don't want you to do this, so don't.

841
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: And that's so many and they're all all the scenes

842
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 1: are so quiet, and he's like, listen up, bitch, you

843
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,600
Speaker 1: cannot do anything. And she's like, but I would like

844
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,480
Speaker 1: to do something and he's like, tough ship, you can't

845
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 1: do it, and then crying, and then you're just like

846
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 1: this movie is very long. Well, let's get into Darwin.

847
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 1: She is the daughter of l Rond and in some

848
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 1: ways the daughter of Steven Tyler. You could argue that

849
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: you could also argue El Rond is Steven Tyler if

850
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: you look at him. That's I think Steven Tyler was

851
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: really slept on in the casting process. Well, doesn't have

852
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 1: blue eyes, because if not, they could not count. For

853
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:33,120
Speaker 1: I remember my mom because I'm from Boston, Ak the

854
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 1: land of Arrowsmith, where literally the year the Aerosmith roller

855
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 1: coaster debuted at Disney World. Why does that place exist, Uh,

856
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: the air Smith roller coaster, not Didney World. My mom

857
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: made us all go that year. But she I have

858
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 1: like a very specific memory of my mom looking at

859
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: liv Tyler in the movie, leaning over to me and

860
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 1: being like Steven Tyler's Daughta is so beautiful. I was

861
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 1: like ah. Anyway, So her story is that she has

862
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: to decide if she wants to stay in Mental Earth

863
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 1: and be with Aragorn, which means she would need to

864
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: sacrifice her immortality, or if she wants to sail away

865
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: with her elf people to the Undying Lands so that

866
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: she can stay immortal. Wait, a woman's storyline is a

867
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 1: rooted in whether she's going to sacrifice something for a

868
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 1: man or not, And that's a do or think of that.

869
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 1: I don't see why that bumps anyone. So both l

870
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,359
Speaker 1: around her father and Aragorn are encouraging her not to

871
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: make this sacrifice, but she decides to stay, which means

872
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: I suppose she's given a little bit of agency in

873
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 1: order to be able to make this life changing choice.

874
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,400
Speaker 1: But of course the choice that she makes is to

875
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: sacrifice a huge part of herself for a man. Yeah,

876
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's her choice she does. I I appreciate,

877
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:07,720
Speaker 1: And again we're going bear minimum argument that the story

878
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 1: at least lets her make her choice and doesn't go

879
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 1: the route of like, because if you go like way

880
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 1: back in mythology, there's so many examples of like a

881
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: female character who makes a choice and is killed because

882
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: she made the choice she wanted to and didn't do

883
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:28,600
Speaker 1: what her father told her to do. So at least

884
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 1: that's not an example of that like ancient trope of

885
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 1: women being punished when they do what they want. But

886
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: it's not it's not good, it doesn't bode well. That's

887
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:44,720
Speaker 1: the only thing we really get to see her think

888
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:48,440
Speaker 1: about or trapple with, is like she's basically choosing between

889
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: her father and Vigo. She has an agency, but she's

890
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: still just in accessory right right, And part of the

891
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: reason that she makes this choice to stay with air

892
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:03,879
Speaker 1: Corn is because she also has foresight abilities, some clairvoyance

893
00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 1: if you will, and she foresees she foresees that she

894
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 1: will have a son with Aragorn, So like, now motherhood

895
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:19,080
Speaker 1: is a daughter that that really annoying where she stares

896
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:21,759
Speaker 1: into the woods and she's like, what if I had

897
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 1: a son? I was like, even you can't imagine women

898
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: in this world, yeah, because you've never met one. Well,

899
00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:31,759
Speaker 1: there needs to be a male heir, because you know,

900
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 1: Agorn does accept his destiny to be can't be in charge.

901
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 1: It's the rules that is. But what's really getting me

902
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 1: down is you know that two women co wrote this

903
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: with Peter Jackson. I mean, and I also wonder to

904
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:52,359
Speaker 1: what degree were they calling the shots? Who knows? Who knows.

905
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 1: It's a different times, it was a different it was

906
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 1: almost twenty years ago, you know. Oh God, but this

907
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,799
Speaker 1: is so within our lifetimes. It is so frustrating to

908
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 1: think of like this nice memory that we have of

909
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:07,839
Speaker 1: like seeing a movie with our mom, and it's like, oh,

910
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 1: we were not represented in the away and didn't even

911
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 1: notice it. Yeah, it's just it's just unfortunately huge franchise.

912
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: They tried a little harder. Again, I haven't seen Hobbit one,

913
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: just Hobbit Too. There's also a third one, sad, I

914
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: mean number two was smill fucking heavy. They smoke, but

915
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 1: they do dry to make that female character more active.

916
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:44,959
Speaker 1: Interesting that you mentioned that, because, um, well, a friend

917
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,399
Speaker 1: of the cast, Lindsay Ellis, I was hoping we talked

918
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: about this. She made a three part video essay series

919
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: about the Hobbit trilogy. She made a straight up Future

920
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: Link documentary. It's amazing. It's like everything she does. It's amazing.

921
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:01,720
Speaker 1: I encourage you to refer to part two of this

922
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 1: video series. There's a section between around minute nineteen nineteen

923
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:11,479
Speaker 1: and where she talks about the character of Tariel, which

924
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 1: is the Elf maiden played by Evangeline Lily in the

925
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: Hobbit trilogy. So she was added in just like this

926
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 1: character kind of like created from nothing, because I'm pretty

927
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: sure she's not in the Hobbit book. She gets she

928
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 1: gets added into this narrative as a warrior lady because

929
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: the studios thought this movie would be more marketable to

930
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 1: a female audience if there was a lady in it.

931
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 1: That was that is misguided positive, but the movies are

932
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 1: so lame right Well then, also, as Lindsay Ellis points

933
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 1: out in the video, her being present in the story

934
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 1: in the context that she is in the story, which

935
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,000
Speaker 1: is like a warrior, creates a contradiction in the Middle

936
00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: Earth universe because in the Lord of the Rings trilogy

937
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: is established that women don't do battle, and like a

938
00:58:04,640 --> 00:58:07,360
Speaker 1: Owen has to disguise herself as being a man in

939
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: order to ride into battle in Return of the King.

940
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: So like there's like these very rigid gender roles that

941
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 1: are established in the Lord of the Rings trilogy where like,

942
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 1: you know, save the women and children. They have to

943
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: be like protected and put away into the caves. They

944
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 1: can't fight, And she's all and a win is all like, well,

945
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 1: I'm competent with the sword. I want to fight for

946
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 1: this causes I believe in, Like why shouldn't I be

947
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:33,160
Speaker 1: able to fight? So she so we'll get to a Owen.

948
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,640
Speaker 1: But like, she's easily the most active character. But the

949
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,720
Speaker 1: Hobbit trilogy like really fucks up the rules that are

950
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:44,560
Speaker 1: established in this universe by putting this Tariel character into

951
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:48,080
Speaker 1: those movies. Um. But anyway, so back to our own

952
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 1: really quick. Um. She does do a couple of small

953
00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 1: things that influenced the direction of the story, Like she

954
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: saves Frodo from the Ring Raiths that are chasing him

955
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 1: in the Fellowship of the Ring. In the first movie,

956
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: she tells her dad Elrond to have the sword reforged

957
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 1: so that Aergorn can fulfill his destiny to become king.

958
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: So she doesn't forge the sword herself, she tells a

959
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 1: man to do it. Um, and for a man. Women

960
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 1: can't touch swords, so except your unless you're a win.

961
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 1: So yet if the sword is a standing for the fallace,

962
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: then this is a very homerotic movie. Then you better

963
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 1: be jerking off that sword, Pale. But basically you discard game. Yeah,

964
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,480
Speaker 1: you can pretty easily remove her character from this narrative

965
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: and the story would be pretty much unchanged. Like, she

966
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 1: doesn't have that much to do. We only see we

967
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 1: don't even see her on screen in the first movie

968
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 1: until I think it's an hour in eight minutes into

969
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 1: the movie, to be fair, there's a lot left after

970
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: that point, that's true. But she's only in the movie,

971
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 1: you know. But she's on screen then for about four

972
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 1: minutes during that like chase scene. Yeah, she is mostly

973
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 1: absent from the movie. Meanwhile, there's eight hundred men in it. Well, hey, gang, Hey,

974
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 1: it's us. I'm sick now you're so yeah, you suddenly

975
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 1: got sick. In a matter of seconds, I'll break the

976
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 1: fourth wall and be like, yeah, we recorded this months ago.

977
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: Uh there. So this is a two parter because, as

978
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 1: you know, The Lord of the Rings is extremely long,

979
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,000
Speaker 1: So stay tuned. We have the second part of this

980
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 1: episode with our wonderful gust on a coming up very soon.

981
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 1: In the meantime, you can follow us at all the

982
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,440
Speaker 1: normal places. You follow us on Instagram at bechtel Cast,

983
01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 1: Twitter at bechtel Cast, Patreon ak Matrion five dollars a

984
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 1: month to bonus episodes. Also, if you live in the

985
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: Los Angeles area, come to our live show on September

986
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 1: fift at nine pm at the Ruby. We are covering

987
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 1: Edward Scissor Hands with guests Maggie may Fish. We're so excited,

988
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 1: it's gonna be great. I won't be sick anymore than yeah,

989
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: you'll be in tip top shape, I promise, sah. And

990
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 1: if you want to come to that, um tickets are

991
01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,440
Speaker 1: going fast, so get them while you can. And to

992
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:23,320
Speaker 1: do that, go to our website becktel cast dot com

993
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 1: and go to the live appearances tab and there's a

994
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:29,520
Speaker 1: link to buy tickets there and it's always in good

995
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 1: to our merch store if you need any of the merch. Uh,

996
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,600
Speaker 1: it's what you do. Would you need it? Listen you

997
01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:39,439
Speaker 1: need it And that's at t public dot com. Slash

998
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:42,960
Speaker 1: the Bechtel Cast, the Battel Cast. I was going to

999
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:45,560
Speaker 1: get it wrong. We'll see you for part two of

1000
01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 1: the Lord of the Rings episodes soon live long and

1001
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 1: get that ring. Hey, wond ring to rule them all

1002
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:57,240
Speaker 1: but two parts to this episode, Love It, Bye Bye,