WEBVTT - Michael Keiser’s Second Act 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.880 When Mike Kaiser opened Abandoned Dunes in nineteen ninety nine, 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:08.280 his son Michael was eighteen years old. Michael went on 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:10.840 to play a key role in the expansion of the 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:15.000 Kaiser family's dream golf empire. He and his brother Chris 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:19.960 oversaw the development of Sand Valley in Wisconsin, which turned 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:24.079 into one of the most architecturally experimental golf resorts in 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:28.960 the country. Now, Michael is creating three new resorts of 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:32.199 his own, all opening within the next year and a 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:36.839 half or so. There's Wildspring Dunes in East Texas, There's 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:42.720 Rodeo Dunes in Colorado, and Old Shores in the Florida Panhandle. Meanwhile, 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:47.080 Michael is supporting a few municipal golf projects in his 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:50.720 home state of Wisconsin, so he's got a lot going on. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:55.760 These are big, legacy defining moves, and I'm curious to 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:59.880 find out how he views this new phase of his 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:05.600 development career, what he's borrowing from the past, and how 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.680 he's trying to innovate. But most of all, I want 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:11.720 to know more about what these new places are going 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:15.679 to look like. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is designing golf. 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:23.080 Michael. 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.040 Welcome to the pod. Thanks for being here, Thanks for 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:29.920 having me Garrett. So you've been very busy, or at 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.480 least it looks that way to me. You've got a 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:36.680 number of projects underway, including a few that are finishing 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:40.520 up and even opening soon. So I thought it would 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.039 be a great time to bring you back on the 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.080 pod and talk about everything that's going on in your world. 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:50.400 Why don't we start by talking about wild Spring Dunes 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:54.840 in East Texas, which has its grand opening as I 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:59.640 understand it, on Friday, September eighth. So could you tell 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:02.640 me about this, uh, this property in general? What what 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:03.800 what makes this play special? 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:07.920 It's interesting because it's it's the one that sort of 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:13.600 I've gotten involved in most recently, and it's the furthest 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.080 along right now. So it's it's it's so it's strange 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:18.320 to me that Rodeo Dunes has been eight years in 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:21.640 the making, in old Chore six years and uh, you 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:26.640 know Texas, things really move quickly. So it was one 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:28.640 when I first heard about it, I was reluctant to 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.480 take on because I quite quite a bit on my 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:35.720 plate and wasn't looking for another project. And you know, 0:02:35.760 --> 0:02:38.560 when Brett, who found the site originally reached out. I 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.360 just said I didn't even want to see it. His 0:02:41.520 --> 0:02:44.080 partner flew up to Madison and convinced me to at 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:48.520 least come down and see the property. And I did, 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:51.880 and I fell in love with it, and UH couldn't 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:54.040 couldn't say no to it, even though it was probably 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:59.519 the prudent UH decision. It's such a unique property. It 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.160 certainly different than any site that I have worked on, 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:04.600 but I think it's really distinct, you know, in golf, 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:10.559 and it has qualities from a lot of different places 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:14.200 that I love and they all sort of come together 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:16.680 in one routing. So when I first got down to 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:20.600 the property and Brett showed me around, we walked through 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:24.720 some of those different environmental elements. And at the time, 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:29.040 there were three golf courses routed on the property, and 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:33.000 they each used one or two of these areas, which 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:35.120 I'll describe in a minute. But what I said was, 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:38.000 if I'm going to get involved, we have to create 0:03:38.040 --> 0:03:41.720 that super course, right, use all of these environments and 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.120 go in and out of them and explore them. And 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:46.040 at the time, that meant there's only gonna be one 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.760 golf course. So we went from three golf courses to 0:03:49.920 --> 0:03:54.000 one super golf course. We're now back to three and 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:57.840 I'll get to that. But you know, this land has 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:04.320 some very sort of gentle open sandy ground in the 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.360 center of it that is a little bit like Pinehurst. 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:13.200 It has these really sharp, deep ravines that cut in 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:16.279 and out of the property that remind me so much 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:19.280 of shore Acres where I've played a lot of golf. Uh, 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.719 and I've learned a lot about architecture through the agronomy 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:27.200 changes that happened under Brian Palmer. Uh. You know, the 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:29.760 depth and size of those are so familiar to me 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:33.000 through through I might have such chicagoff shore acres. 0:04:33.040 --> 0:04:36.000 Just to clarify, Yeah, you did say Short Acres, which 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:38.400 by the way, is in the suburbs of Chicago. Seth 0:04:38.480 --> 0:04:40.400 Rayner course. Yeah, Mike Michigan. 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:46.560 Fantastic, fantastic content on those ravines. It has some bigger 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:53.080 some some bigger bold landforms that reminded me a lot 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.480 of Pine Pine Valley. And it even has a hole 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.440 that is inspired, you know, by the Second Hole fame. 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:01.480 You know, I guess they're all famous at Pine Valley, 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:06.280 but the Second Pine Valley. It had some ridges that 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:08.840 remind me a lot of sand Valley right, these big 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:13.000 sort of dune ridges that and then it has this 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:19.120 massive dune in the center where Tom's course starts and ends. 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:23.440 So tying those all together, Tom developed a new routing 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:27.280 that does such a you know, it goes from that 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:32.919 dune to the meadow, to the pine valley to the meadow, 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:36.640 there's a couple of these ravines introduced along the way, 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:41.799 then goes into you know ravine, Pine valley, little meadow 0:05:42.040 --> 0:05:45.160 finished with ravine. So it's just this great way of 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:49.120 going in and out of these ecosystems and coming back 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:53.400 at them from a new perspective that I think is 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:57.160 required for a really outstanding routing. And I think Tom's 0:05:58.000 --> 0:05:59.480 routing is outstanding. 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.640 And for those who don't know your Tom refers to 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:05.400 Tom Doak, who's doing the first course at at well 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:06.000 it's being nuts. 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:11.040 Yeah, thanks for clarifying. So that's the first course we 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.119 did end up finding. It was right under our nose, 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:18.280 but adjacent property that is totally different from the first 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:26.040 really leans into into these big, bold, even boulder ravines. 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.560 It's in a really exciting way. Bill Cors and Ben 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:33.360 Crunshaw are working on that project. And then some fairways 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.040 that have some neat you know, tilt and then crowns 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:40.280 to them. And then this wonderful, delightful surprise we discovered 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.919 as we've been opening up the routing is some smaller 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:49.440 micro contours in the fairway that are really interesting, so 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:57.520 it's completely different than than Tom's. And then through some acquisition, 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:02.880 thinking about a third course which we've been talking informally 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:08.680 with Jim Craig about that has a lot of those 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:14.240 ravines and and some neat hills, but will really be 0:07:14.280 --> 0:07:18.800 a more intimate, compact routing. The first two are similar 0:07:18.800 --> 0:07:20.720 to a lot of things we've done where they're sprawling. 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.040 You know, I talked about Tom's gobbling up three courses 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:27.240 with of land bills. Is not all that different. That 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.520 third course is tight, and it's intimate, and it's over 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.520 similarly exciting terrain, but it's pretty wide open and you're 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.880 gonna see a lot of golf and golfers around you 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:43.080 while you're playing. Let me just cruise through these courses 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:45.760 and then I'm sure you have questions, but you know, 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.560 after that, we're planning a twelve our course, you know, 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:51.720 similar in par and length and whole number to the 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:55.040 commons that's something I really want to incorporate at each 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:57.880 of these sites I'm working on. Uh. And then Clyde 0:07:57.960 --> 0:08:02.800 Johnson has developed this really school putting course. You know, 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.320 these putting courses you know, sprouted up during the Victorian era, 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:10.360 which was quite a long wayne and it you know 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:17.520 in these you know Victorian bath you know, on beach places. 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:20.800 And we think of putting courses like the Himalayas or 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:26.360 the punch Ball or the Rockies we're doing out it Dunes. 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:30.240 But there's a lot more variety in those early ones. Uh. 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:33.720 There I see this great really old black and white photo. 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:36.640 There was one on the roof of a building. You know. 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.360 They were There's a lot more variety and and and 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:45.480 some of them played through these formal gardens where there 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:47.880 was you know, a garden on either side of the hole. 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.120 So we have this beautiful meadow at wild Spring Dunes 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:55.520 and Clyde has routed a thirty six hole course that 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:59.760 plays through this meadow where each putting hole is contained. 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.520 It looks like a miniature golf hole, and I think 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:06.960 that's where this term miniature golf you know, came from. 0:09:07.040 --> 0:09:10.360 So something that's really different, really fun, you know, it's 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:12.680 right in the heart of the village. We've designed so 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.000 golfers could just go out in the afternoon and put 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:17.439 and have fun. So that's that's sort of the golf 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:18.840 of Wild Spring Dunes. 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:24.720 You've worked with Tom Doak and Corn Crunshaw now on 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.679 a number of different projects each. I wonder at this 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:33.960 point if you have some ideas about what differentiates the 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.199 two of them, you know, the differences that you see 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:41.640 in their working methods and their design styles both at 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:45.320 Wild Spring Dunes and and elsewhere that you've worked with them. 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:48.800 Well, yeah, I mean that's remind me of the two, 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:53.600 but it's methods and styles that the methods are, you know, 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.880 completely different, and obviously they're both. They both deliver at 0:09:56.920 --> 0:10:02.199 such high levels that there's not a better or worse method. 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.320 But you know, Bill's a grinder, so he just grinds 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.640 through routings, you know, over years, and trip after trip 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:14.040 after trip after trip that continues on while he's building 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:17.040 the course in you know, layer cakes, you know, layer 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:21.319 at a time, just little moves that are constant and relentless. 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.640 So that's like a broad way of describing, you know, 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:28.360 his methodology. And I'll come back to elaborate on that. 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.440 You know, Tom you know, generally gets his routing pretty 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:36.920 far along, you know, on paper on topo certainly confirms 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:39.560 that in the field, and then like at All Shores, 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:44.600 there's been some routing changes as we've you know, begun 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:58.120 begun the project. But his shaping methodology is compact and intense, 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.560 and I call I describe it, and I'd say this 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.320 to him as a feeding frenzy. So they bring in 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:09.200 the whole renaissance team. You know, the last time Tom 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.000 and I were on site of Old Shores, Eric Iverson 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.719 was there, Brian Slonik was there, Clyde Johnson was there, 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:17.760 and Angela was there, and for seven or eight days 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:22.199 they just all shaped like crazy and Tom's jumping around editing. 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:25.600 Oh I should add that Tom's now started shaping. His 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:30.360 first green in a long time was the fifteenth at 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.440 Sedge Valley and then he worked with Brian at High 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.760 Point a lot and now a hole that seems to 0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:40.760 be everybody's favorite hole at Old Shores is one that 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:43.640 Tom shaped. So those are five people going around the 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:50.160 clock for seven or eight days, very different than you know, 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.280 a green is shaped in eight days where you know, 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:56.080 we worked on the ninth Green at Royo Dunes for 0:11:56.280 --> 0:12:01.040 well over a year. And you know, probably right, there's 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:05.000 just little you know, taking away little pieces, adding little 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:09.080 pieces really slow and steady, that Bill's sort of grinding method. 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:15.480 So their methods are wildly different. What was the second 0:12:15.520 --> 0:12:15.880 part of it? 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:19.520 You said, design styles is what I was also interested in. 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:21.960 But really you can take this those are kind of 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:25.800 my two suggestions. But you already have such interesting thoughts 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:30.320 about the differences between these two architecture firms that yeah, 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:32.240 I'd just be interested in general. 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:36.080 I mean, I think, you know, on design style, I 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.920 think they would say, like, we don't have a design style, 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:40.560 right right. Yeah. 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:44.760 Bill Krr especially always sort of resists that yeah kind 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:48.280 of question. He always says, you know, I'm land first. 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:51.400 The style is whatever, but the land is the thing. 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.640 With that said, there are some themes, you know, that 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:57.960 we could talk about. And you know, I start with 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.960 fairways and I saw this, you know, caddying at pac 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:04.640 Dunes and you know, spend a year at Barn Google 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:10.040 and I mean Tom does very little with this wild ground, 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.600 like he just sort of he really leaves it alone. 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:19.800 I mean, far more than Bill and Ben so sort 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:26.280 of up into the green. Tom does very little. Bill. 0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:30.040 You know they're minimalists, but you know they say in 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:31.920 their company sometimes you have to move a lot of 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.000 sand to make it look like you moved a little bit. 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.959 He's much more inclined to you know, the tenth hole 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:39.600 at Sand Valley, that left side came up eight feet, 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.800 you know, cut four feet off. So it's all based 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.720 off of the ground that's there, and it's not a 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.840 massive construction project. But Sand Valley we have one or 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:53.520 two dump trucks work in every day, you know, in fairways, 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:55.960 whereas Tom might dump a little sand for the greens, 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.120 but you're not seeing dump trucks, you know, doing big 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:02.880 cuts and fills in the fairways. So stylistically what that 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:08.480 means in Tom's architecture, I see a lot more, you know, quirky, 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:15.160 rough wild shapes that are what's the I'm trying to 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:19.200 think of the the word in music, but where it's 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:25.800 sort of left hanging right. And Bill, I think Radio 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.840 Dunes is a big exception. And I want to share 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:31.200 a conversation Bill and I had when I was seeing 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:35.080 for the first time the second Hole in Scotland at 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:39.040 cool Links and I sat there and it was so 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:46.720 odd and off balance and outstanding, and I said, you know, Bill, 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:48.640 I think this is one of the best holes in Scotland, 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:50.680 certainly one of the most original holes I've seen a 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.720 long time. And I don't want you to take this 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:58.120 the wrong way, but when I think of your architecture, 0:14:58.200 --> 0:15:02.680 I think of perfect balance and harmony, and I think 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:07.080 of one of those Calder sculptures, you know, those aerials, 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:09.640 and if you've seen them, the color of a painter 0:15:09.680 --> 0:15:12.080 and a sculpture, and they hang from the ceiling and 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:15.960 they don't go like this, They balance, And I just 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:19.520 feel like if you took his bunkering and shapes and 0:15:19.560 --> 0:15:22.360 connected them through rods and held them on a string, 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:26.680 they would just balance. The scales would balance evenly, whereas 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.080 toms might tip over a little bit. So I said that, 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:34.320 you know to Bill, and you just sort of nodded. 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:38.240 And the next time I saw him at Rodeo Dunes, 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.680 the you know, the routing, he blew it up and 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.360 sort of, you know, nine of the holes were new, 0:15:45.560 --> 0:15:47.280 and this is after he'd been working on it for 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:50.640 several years and made a lot of changes. And one 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.120 of the things I asked, you know, Bill and John 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.640 Hawker to do it Rodeo was to leave some of 0:15:56.680 --> 0:16:02.760 those awkward shapes alone. So I actually think a lot 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:07.760 of his fairways remind me a lot at Rodeo Dunes 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:11.720 feel like Tom Doak fairways. Stylistically, you know, just a big, 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:13.720 huge mound in the set of the fairway. We didn't 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.480 have to cut it down and raise the hole. It's 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:20.760 just you know, it's it's it's it's dramatic or if 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.160 there's if there's a shape. You know, in the first hole, 0:16:24.200 --> 0:16:27.120 there's a big mound that's too steep to mow in 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.680 front of the first green, So instead of smoothing it 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:33.080 out and making it fairy, just left it alone as 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:38.320 this native area that sticks into the hole. So stylistically, 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.920 I think every one of the courses are so different. 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:48.760 But I think those are maybe because Tom moves less 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.200 in the fairway and Bill and Ben tend to move 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:57.360 a little more. You see some differences in the fairways, 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.160 you know, getting you know, Rucker style is different for 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:07.720 every project. For both of them green shapes, I h 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.840 I don't want to speak. I don't think I could 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:18.119 speak eloquently, and you know, really comparing and contrasting they're greens. 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:21.200 But I would say that Bill finishes every green himself. 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:23.280 And I think one of the things he does, maybe 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:25.840 better than anybody on the planet is like when you 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:30.320 have a twelve foot putt, you're never confident with the line. 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:34.119 Is I mean, it's just like it's always like is 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:36.200 it breaking a cup or might have just straightened out 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.959 at the end. Like that's where Bill comes in and 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:45.240 as those shapes that are so beguiling, right, And some 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.720 people might not like that. I love it because it's 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.280 not just like up there's a line, it's a cup 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:52.919 and a half to left. If I hit it, I 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.520 know what's going in. You're always left wondering until that 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.440 ball drops in the cup, right, And I think that's 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.399 a maybe that I know about Bill's green's you know, 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:06.920 speaking as a collection, I don't if I haven't processed 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:11.640 that information yet. 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:17.520 Today's episode is brought to you by the Golf Course 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:24.640 Superintendents Association of America or GCSAA. GCSAA supports more than 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:29.919 twenty one thousand members worldwide, from superintendents and equipment managers 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:34.840 to students and educators. Celebrating it's one hundredth anniversary this year. 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:39.080 GCSAA continues to ensure that its members are on the 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:44.399 forefront of research, education, innovation, and advocacy through a range 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:48.520 of programs and services. Its mission is to serve its members, 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:53.520 advance the profession and improve communities through the enjoyment, growth, 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.120 and vitality of the game of golf. You can learn 0:18:57.119 --> 0:19:00.760 more about how GCSAA is keeping the game on course 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:03.480 for the next one hundred years at g c s 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:14.919 A a dot org. So, I think I just remembered 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:19.000 the musical term you were searching for, Michael. It might 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:25.080 be dissonance to describe Tom Dooke's willingness to let things 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.359 kind of clash or or you know, let there be 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:32.560 some awkwardness or some loose ends, or or you know, 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:37.719 little just little jagged corners of things. Whereas you know, 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:44.440 what what makes Bill Correr's work, finish work so remarkable 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:48.920 is how harmonious it is, right, how balanced everything is, 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:52.760 and it's beautiful. But it's it's really interesting that that 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:56.680 you've kind of pushed him recently to to consider leaving 0:19:56.800 --> 0:20:00.600 some things maybe a little bit more unfinished, just to 0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:03.840 just to try to find something new in there. I 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:05.400 think that's really interesting. 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:10.880 And it's it's unresolved, right. Sometimes this is just unresolved 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:13.680 in music. Yeah, and it doesn't take a lot of encouragement. 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.720 I mean, Bill is so fun to work with because 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.520 he he just loves anything to riff off of, give 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:22.159 me anything. There's a pile of garbage, Okay, I'll make that. 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:27.800 He he's he's he's like Miles Davis, you know, and 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.080 so he's great, Yeah, let's go with that. And he's 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:37.080 gonna make that brilliant, which makes you know, somebody throwing 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:43.119 something out feel great. There's that. This this story about 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:48.080 Herbie Hancock was playing with Miles Davis and uh, you know, 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:52.639 they were they were jamming and Herbie just hit a 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:58.480 note that was like way off right and mouth Davis 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:03.040 was a strict task master, so he thought for sure, 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:05.880 like this isn't gonna go well, I'm gonna get fired. 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:10.159 I mean, just bullivant, just like whoops. And he said that. 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:12.520 Miles Davis started put his trumpet down a little bit 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:15.960 and was just thinking, and then when he started up again, 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:20.399 he made Herbie's note right. You know, he made it 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:24.119 work right. And that's like Bill, like, give him anything. 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:26.680 I could say, Oh, I don't want to touch these mountains, 0:21:26.680 --> 0:21:29.200 and you know, he might be thinking, well, that's garbage, 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:32.800 but he's but then he's like, I'm gonna make that right, right, 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:35.800 And that's what he does. And that's why he's so 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:37.960 so fun to work with, because there's almost nothing you 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:41.120 can't throw out at him that he could make right 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:42.720 and make it, you know, right. 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.320 He's always working with what. What he's given in a 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:52.760 very interesting way, is what he bases everything on. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:21:52.800 --> 0:21:56.040 that's great. Well, we've already sort of talked a little 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:58.760 bit about it. But the next project of yours that 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:02.760 I love to talk about is Rodeo Dunes in Colorado. 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:07.000 The first course, as you mentioned, was designed by Corn Crenshaw. 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:10.919 It's on schedule for an opening next year. I believe 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:14.240 the preview play has been has been happening for a while. 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:18.240 You you told me about the land at wild Spring Dunes. 0:22:18.720 --> 0:22:21.639 What kind of land are you working with at Rodeo Dunes. 0:22:21.680 --> 0:22:22.640 What's special about it? 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:27.600 We're in some choppy sand dunes, right, which is sort 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:34.480 of ideal ground to build a golf course upon. It, 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:42.199 particularly where Bill's course heads and Jimmy's. It struck, you know, 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:47.000 my first impression was. It reminded me of Western Ireland, right, 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:54.719 just big, huge, bold movements that I hadn't seen you 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:59.640 know here, you know before. One of the things that 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:01.800 some he pointed out to me, and he was right, 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:05.560 is that when we do have those valleys, they tend 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:10.199 to be wider. You get into some valleys, what's the 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:13.199 course not well, Carn's a good example of it. But 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:15.960 also and it's grown. Well, you're playing with the in 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:19.080 these amazing dunes, but you know, they come down in 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:20.640 the fairway and some of them get a little tight, 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:23.080 and then it's very steep and sharp. So we have 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:27.600 these big movements, but then space within them, and within 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:31.120 that space you're allowed to make more interesting angles. So 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:34.960 I just played Bill and Dunn's course for the first 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:36.800 time a couple of weeks ago, and I knew I 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:41.280 loved it. There's such enormous variety, like no two holes 0:23:41.400 --> 0:23:47.640 are alike, right, and the angles of the routing are 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.639 so amazing, And so I knew all the things I 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:54.720 loved about it without playing it. What blew me away 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:59.120 was how amazingly important those angles are. And even though 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:02.280 it's a wildly different golf course, I had the same 0:24:02.400 --> 0:24:04.920 joy from it that I get playing the lido where 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:09.280 it's so wide. I mean, Bill build a resort course 0:24:09.680 --> 0:24:11.480 in the wind, so it has a lot of width, 0:24:12.720 --> 0:24:16.639 but the angles aret but are so important and I 0:24:16.760 --> 0:24:20.440 just loved that that. You know, the people I were 0:24:20.520 --> 0:24:23.160 playing against the there's a fifth hole and the pin 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:26.440 was on the left side, and their layup it's part five, 0:24:26.840 --> 0:24:30.160 was a little a little sloppy, and they're left with 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:32.760 a shot where the ball, you know, they have a 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:36.080 wedge in the ball's now running away from them, so 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:37.959 they want to land short of the pin, but they 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:41.200 could clip a dune that's in the way really hard 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:43.560 up and down. If you come in from the right, 0:24:43.800 --> 0:24:45.640 it sort of goes on. You get a little back 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:48.640 forward like you're attacking it. So that's just one example 0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:51.040 of an angle where it's like, okay, you got to 0:24:51.119 --> 0:24:55.199 lay up off of an awkward lie so it's not 0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:59.520 just an easy five iron layup. And depending on where 0:24:59.560 --> 0:25:01.600 the pit, when the pin's right there, you want to 0:25:01.600 --> 0:25:06.600 come in from way left. So I guess going back 0:25:06.640 --> 0:25:11.119 to the site, you know, Ireland and big and bold, 0:25:11.119 --> 0:25:15.600 but with with there's also huge variety out there. There's 0:25:15.640 --> 0:25:17.680 a site I really like to build on that a 0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:22.040 lot more Scottish, right, just like smaller you know, Microw 0:25:22.320 --> 0:25:25.800 really perfect for golf. So it's not all just huge 0:25:25.880 --> 0:25:29.000 and big and bold. There's an area to the north 0:25:29.800 --> 0:25:32.120 that is little more hilly, a little more at sand 0:25:32.240 --> 0:25:34.639 hillsy you know, but with some chop mixed in it. 0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:38.880 So I think you'll find a lot of variety from 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:42.720