1 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: Pushkin. This show contains adult language and occasional descriptions of violence. 2 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: Please keep that in mind when choosing when and where 3 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: to listen. Previously on Death of an Artist. I started 4 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: to leave the gallery and then I thought, wait a minute, 5 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: what if it's art? And I went an app and 6 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: it went ARC and I got so excited. It was 7 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: a revolutionary moment. This guy is now wooing her the 8 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: way he loves wooing, with champagne, expensive dinners. And this 9 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: is somebody who's writing down I have ten cents that 10 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: I used to put on a stamp or whatever. That's enticing. 11 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: She was not fearful person, except interestingly when it came 12 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: to heights. The last person to talk to Anna before 13 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: she died other than Carl was her close friend Natalia Delgado. 14 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: She knew the marriage was not working. They were on 15 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: the phone. Anna was sure Carl was seeing another woman, 16 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: and she had a plan for how she was going 17 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: to prove it. She almost knew it was crazy. She said, 18 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: I think you and I should put on some wigs 19 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: and dressed like other people, and let's see if we can, 20 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: like take some pictures of it. You should do it, 21 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: because you won't recognize you, and I said, are you crazy. 22 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: I'm not going to do that. I mean, Carl was 23 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: in the apartment as the two women spoke, possibly within earshot. 24 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: Carl was in the background, and so I said, well, 25 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: maybe you should be speaking in Spanish. But still their 26 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: words that were the same, you know, like detective, divorce, 27 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: the same words, you know. So I think that he 28 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,959 Speaker 1: probably could figure out what she was talking about. As 29 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: far as Natalia knew, Anna never hired a detective, but 30 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: she had talked to an attorney about how to file 31 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: for divorce on grounds of infidelity, and she had said 32 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: she was gathering evidence. She was making photocopies of all 33 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: of the receipts from his American Express card and his 34 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: phone bills. She's trying to reconstruct the events of the affairs, 35 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,360 Speaker 1: and she wanted to use that for her divorce on 36 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: grounds of infidelity. I thought it was better to tell 37 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: him and say, look, this is what I've accumulated. I 38 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 1: want a divorce and I have evidence of this. Did 39 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: she ever say or sounds like she was afraid of him? Yes, 40 00:02:54,639 --> 00:03:01,119 Speaker 1: that night, but I had no idea because she said 41 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: he had a temper before. But I had no idea 42 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: how that he could get really violent, and she said, yeah, 43 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: he's going to blow up if I have this conversation 44 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: with him, He's really going to blow up. It was 45 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: late and Natalia said she had to go, so I 46 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: said I would call her the next day. She said, 47 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: waked me up. So I called her in the morning 48 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: and I got Carl. I said I need to speak 49 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: with Anna and he said she's not here and I said, well, 50 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: when will she be back. He said I don't know. 51 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: I said, well, please tell her. I called and he 52 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: said I will. This detail astounds me. Anna's best friend 53 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: calls the morning Anna died, and Carl doesn't tell her 54 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: what's happened, but agrees to pass on a message. Natalia 55 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: has been sitting with this for decades. You know, it's 56 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: something that's very painful for me, because I thought it 57 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: is better to tell him and say, look, this is 58 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: what I've accumulated. I want to divorce. It never occurred 59 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: to me that he would kill her. I'm your host, 60 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: Helen Molesworth and from Pushkin Industries, Something Else and Sony 61 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: Music Entertainment. This is Death of an Artist. Episode three, 62 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: The Feminist Cabal. Even when the whole world was arranged 63 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 1: to keep her away from what she wanted. Anna was 64 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 1: invested in trying to change things. She wanted to go 65 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: home to Cuba, the home she hadn't seen since age twelve, 66 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:54,919 Speaker 1: but icy Cold War relations between the US and the 67 00:04:55,000 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: island made travel between the two countries impossible. Exiles were 68 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: not allowed to return to Cuba. You leave, and it 69 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: was like you're a trader and that's it, it's over. 70 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 1: That's Coco Fusco, an artist and the author of Dangerous Moves, 71 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: performance and politics in Cuba, and this was deeply traumatic 72 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,799 Speaker 1: for people who left family members there, left homes, left lives. 73 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: I grew up in a world in which, like all 74 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: my relatives were like crying about Cuba all the time. 75 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 1: So Anna pushed to change it. There were some groups 76 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: of younger Cuban exiles like Anna who had come as children, 77 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: who in the seventies organized politically to reopen the possibility 78 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: of family reunification. Flights, who was one of the Cubans 79 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: from the American side who sat down with people in 80 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: the Cuban government and tried to bring the two sides together. 81 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 1: That's pretty daring, and they succeeded, and in nineteen seventy nine, 82 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: those flights began. One hundred and fifty thousand Cubans went 83 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: in the first few years of this. In nineteen eighty, 84 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: Anna made her first trip back to Cuba, where she 85 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: was able to reunite with her grandparents and extended family. 86 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: It was a return to her roots. Here's how Anna, 87 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,280 Speaker 1: voiced here by the Cuban artist Tanya Brigera, explained it. 88 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: I find that my roots are Cuban. The branches might 89 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 1: be American, but the trunk of the tree is Cuban, 90 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: or the roots, you know. Anna started to travel to 91 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: Cuba often, and these visits opened up a whole new 92 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: world for her politically, socially, and artistically. On one of 93 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: those trips, she made what I personally considered to be 94 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: one of her most beautiful pieces, a striking group of 95 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: petroglyphs carved directly into cave walls located in a dense 96 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:05,479 Speaker 1: patch of tropical jungle in Jaruco. More than three decades 97 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: after she made them, an artist and fan of Anna Mendieta's, 98 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: named Elise Resmussen, set out to find them. She recorded 99 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 1: a video of her journey through the overgrowth and into 100 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: the cave. Oh ship, we found one of the sculptures. 101 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: I don't know which one off hand, show us you 102 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 1: can see, can see the head. I really thought that 103 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: all of them would be destroyed, gone. There's others, he's times, 104 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: others founded. The wall reliefs Mendietta left behind are thickly 105 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: carved lines cut directly into the limestone walls. Then she 106 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: took luminous black and white photographs of them. The images 107 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: resemble a primordial female form from the Neolithic period. Clearly, 108 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: Cuba meant a great deal to Anna. It's no easy 109 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: task to carve into a stone wall, and no matter 110 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,680 Speaker 1: how deep in the jungle this cave was, no matter 111 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: how hard the sculptures were to find, to leave a 112 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: mark like that says I was here, I'm from here, 113 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: and I plan to remain here. While in Cuba, Anna 114 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: also explored her interest in the Afro Cuban religion Santaria. 115 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: She was finding a way into the culture. That's Eltrano again, 116 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: one of Anna's Cuban friends in New York. You have 117 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: to understand that Afro Cuban culture permeated the entirety all 118 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: the classes in Cuba. Anna had grown up Catholic, with 119 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: all of those images of sacrifice in blood, and as 120 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: a little girl, she also liked to listen to the 121 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: maids in the kitchen talking about their religion Santaria, with 122 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 1: its images of blood and sacrifice. That interest was already 123 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: visible in her work. Her early grad school performances include 124 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: references to Santa Via rituals through her use of candles 125 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: and chicken sacrifice. But Elatreiano makes the distinction that Anna 126 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: was more student than practitioner. She was not a santeata, 127 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: she was not dressed in white. There is a very 128 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: big difference between a practitioner of Santia and somebody who 129 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: studies or uses it as a way of working with 130 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: the culture. In fact, there's been criticism of Anna that 131 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: she was working with a religion that she really didn't 132 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: know enough about. Anna was interested in excavating her Cuban identity, 133 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: but her trips weren't only about her. She regularly brought 134 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: American artists and critics to Havana, hoping to build a 135 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: cultural pipeline between her two worlds. This wasn't to everyone's liking, 136 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: and her attempt to ch lenge the status quo earned 137 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: her a visit from the FBI. For the first time 138 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: in my career as an art historian, I found myself 139 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 1: looking at copies of heavily redacted FBI files. In September 140 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 1: of nineteen eighty three, just before she left for Rome, 141 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: an agent arrived at Anna's little apartment to question her 142 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: about her trips. Her answers must have been satisfactory. The 143 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: agent recommended the matter be closed. But it wasn't just 144 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: the FBI who perceived her as a threat. She's threatening. 145 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: She is not like a pretty little girl, you know, 146 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: making pretty paintings. That's Sarah Thornton, a sociologist whose book 147 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: Seven Days in the Art World is an in depth 148 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,959 Speaker 1: study of the network of galleries, art schools, and auction 149 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: houses that make up the art community. Her work is 150 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: a threat to patriarchy. She's playing with gender and the 151 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: body every single time, whether it's wearing beards and mustaches, 152 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: her use of blood. For me, she is experimenting with 153 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: the things done to women's bodies under patriarchy, and she's 154 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: revealing it. I agree with Sarah. Anna's work does feel 155 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: like a threat to patriarchy. Anna was not a well 156 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: behaved woman. She was literally playing with blood and fire. 157 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: She's hiking into a jungle to make a carving of 158 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,719 Speaker 1: a vagina on a cave wall. Her studio equipment included 159 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: chainsaws and gunpowder. This is a major badass, and badasses 160 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: are enthralling, and when they are women, they also tend 161 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: to be threatening. When Anna left for Italy and nineteen 162 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,960 Speaker 1: eighty three, she was thrilled to have the opportunity to 163 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: spend an entire year, all expenses paid, on the lush 164 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: grounds of the American Academy in Rome. This was Anna's 165 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: chance to live in a city literally filled with art. Sculptures, paintings, 166 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: and frescoes are everywhere on buildings, in churches and in parks. 167 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: It was a dream. But not everything at the studio 168 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: was to her liking. And as my grandmother would have said, 169 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: she made a stink. She kind of mobilized a group 170 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: of people to protest conditions at the Academy. She came 171 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: in with a list of demands, and I don't think 172 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: the challegy was really used to that. There were sort 173 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: of used to people being docile. That's Chris Halbe, a 174 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: painter who was at the Academy with Anna. He describes 175 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: how she made a bad first impression, but then organized 176 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,439 Speaker 1: some of her peers and got the academy to make 177 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: improvements that helped every one. Your really more impression was 178 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,680 Speaker 1: who was this fin in the alice? More appreciative and respectful, 179 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: you know, and all of that. But I think by 180 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: the end they realized there was something about her. She 181 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: had the guys completely redoom or starlight, and I think 182 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: it parlably led to a kind of reconstruction, the scarlights 183 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: all around the building, just based on her complaints. There 184 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: it is again Anna, the outspoken one, not afraid to 185 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: nibble at the hand that's feeding her. Anna's time in 186 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: Rome was her own for most of her fellowship. Carl 187 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: was back home in New York or working in Germany, 188 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: so he wasn't there. When Natalia Delgado came to visit 189 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 1: Anna at the academy, I think with her a week 190 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: and so she announces, I'm not here to babysit you, 191 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: which of course I wasn't expecting, but she was like 192 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: very clear. Anna gave Natalia a book of walking tours 193 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: so Natalia could roam the city while Anna worked in 194 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: the studio. She had started to experiment with freestanding sculptures 195 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: made out of would that she was burning with a blowtorch. 196 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: In the evenings, the two friends went to the movies. 197 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: They saw Apocalypse Now and they also went dancing. But 198 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: Natalia's visit wasn't only for fun. She came carrying news 199 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: from New York. I told her about the rumors that 200 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: Carl was having affairs. She basically called it off with 201 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: Carl and said, you know, it's over for us, you know, 202 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: and she was wanting to make a new life for herself. 203 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: But Carl and Anna had been in a cycle of 204 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: breaking up and getting back together for several years and 205 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: it would continue. But then he decided to go out 206 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: and court her. It was very sick. I thought, very 207 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: very surprising to me that somebody breaks up with you 208 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: because you're having relationships with other people. And what you 209 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: do is the reaction is you go to see the 210 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: person to try to get them back. And that's what 211 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: he did, and that's when he proposed marriage to her, 212 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: and Anna said, yes, she gave it a chance. You know, 213 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: she wasn't going to find somebody outside of the art world. 214 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: I didn't think, you know, somebody who would understand that vocation. 215 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: You know, she had a vocation. I mean she never 216 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: wanted to have children. I get it. Anna was independent driven. 217 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: Her whole life revolved around and stemmed from her art practice. 218 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: She needed to be with someone who would understand that. 219 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: The two got married in Rome in January of nineteen 220 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: eighty five. Their close friend Carol LeWitt was at the wedding. 221 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: She was radiant. I'll never forget how she learned jobs. 222 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: Absolutely beautiful. Do you remember? Yeah, she's wearing a gray 223 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: knit dress and the girl I found her a great beautis. 224 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: The newlywed started their next chapter with a honeymoon in 225 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: each a place full of art that commemorates death. Anna 226 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: had wanted to go for a while. Anna was so 227 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: interested in death that she once said, I don't think 228 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: you can separate death and life. And we can see 229 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: how her meditations on death showed up in her art. 230 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: For two works that I believe are on view by 231 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: Anna Na Mendieta M E N d I E t A. 232 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: They currently have art on display in gallery two O three. 233 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I appreciate that, no problem. Thanks. 234 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: My producer Luisa and I decided to go to a 235 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: museum to see one of Anna's pieces and what we're 236 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: looking at is a work from nineteen eighty four, so 237 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, Mendietta dies in eighty five, and what we're 238 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: looking at is a four worm that looks like an outline, 239 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: maybe like a silhouette of a mummy. It's called Nile 240 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 1: Bourne and I l e. Bourne. Anna's interest in Egypt 241 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: was so deep that she was even dreaming about it. 242 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: She recounted a dream to a friend in which she 243 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: and Karl were the king and Queen of Egypt at 244 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: sale on a river, surrounded by thousands of snakes. So 245 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: I wasn't surprised to see that her sculpture from this 246 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: period resembled a sarcophagus. It looks like it's made out 247 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: of dirt that's held together with some kind of binder. 248 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: It's really thin. In the interior, there's a very extenuated 249 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: tear drop form slightly raised in a roll. It intimates 250 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: the interior of the body. It intimates legs that spread open, 251 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: it intimates that, you know, the interior space of the vagina. 252 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: Louisa noticed that it looked like an out line of 253 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: a dead body or a coffin, and that is exactly 254 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: one of the things that has made Anna's art so 255 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: chilling in the aftermath of her death. She's in the 256 00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: space of death for sure, So I think you gleaning 257 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: That makes perfect sense to me. Almost all art is 258 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 1: connected to the problem of death, because one of the 259 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: things art is seagory of objects that we have decided 260 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: we are going to save. But being interested in or 261 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: making art about death isn't the same as wanting to die. 262 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: It seems clear that Anna had so much more work 263 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: she wanted to do. This is like the moment when 264 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: I actually find I get angry, because that's made in 265 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four and she died in nineteen eighty five, 266 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: So we actually don't know whether or not she thought 267 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: that was successful. Did she keep making them? What would 268 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: she have done with that idea moving forward? This is 269 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: the tragedy of the artist who days young. We simply 270 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: don't know how their work would have matured, how it 271 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: might have changed over time. Anna's work was very dynamic, 272 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: and in her short career the work changed quite a bit, 273 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: from her use of blood to her use of nature 274 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 1: to the final freestanding sculptures in her studio. Her work 275 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: was already changing and growing. All of that potential violently 276 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: halted and my moment of anger in a museum in 277 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. It gave me some small insight into 278 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: how angry Anna's friends and family must have been when 279 00:19:43,640 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: Carl showed up at her memorial. Let's go back to 280 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: the morning of September eighth, nineteen eighty five, and to 281 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: Natalia Delgado, just hours after Anna's death. Remember, Natalia called 282 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: that morning and Carl had answered. She asked Carl to 283 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,479 Speaker 1: have Anna call her back, and he said he would, 284 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: even though Anna was already dead. So I asked her, 285 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: did you call a second time? Yeah, because she didn't 286 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: call me back on her second call. The person who 287 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,159 Speaker 1: answered the phone was one of Carl's lawyers, Jerry Rosen. 288 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: Carl was at the police station, but he had sent 289 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: Jerry back to the apartment to collect some documents. Here 290 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 1: he is in a nineteen eighty eight interview describing that 291 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,239 Speaker 1: phone call with Natalia falls ring and I pick it up, 292 00:20:56,359 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: and she says Anna there and decided to tell her. 293 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: I said, Anna's dead, all right, and that Carl is 294 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: in jail charge. And that time, Karl's lawyer, I think 295 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,400 Speaker 1: he just sat Anna's dead, and I was like, oh 296 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: my god, you know, I was in disbelief. Remember Natalia 297 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: is a lawyer. She realized something was off. I just said, 298 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,880 Speaker 1: what are you doing in there? Isn't that apartment blocked 299 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: off cordoned off? And he said, well, yes, but uh 300 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: he was in there. He went in. Then I thought 301 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: Karl must have killed her. When she learned that her 302 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: friend was dead and that Carl's lawyer was in what 303 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: was now possibly a crime scene, Natalia immediately got in 304 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: touch with the NYPD. She told them about her last 305 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: phone call with Anna, that Anna had been making copies 306 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: of telephone and credit card bills to prove Carl was cheating, 307 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: and that she was planning on filing for divorce. I 308 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: was concerned about, particularly as I'd spoken to Jerry Rosen 309 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 1: about what was in the apartment, that you know, that 310 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: her evidence wouldn't disappear. We'll come back to this later, 311 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: to the mysterious story of what happened to the xerox 312 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: copies of telephone and credit card bills for now. In 313 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: the immediate aftermath of Anna's death, news of what happened 314 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: was spreading quickly. Some of Anna's friends began planning a 315 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: memorial service. Many were art stars, in their own right, 316 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: heavyweights in the burgeoning feminist art movement. But it was complicated. 317 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 1: Several of Anna's friends were also friends of Carl's. One 318 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: of them, the extremely influential art critic Lucy Leppard, who 319 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: played a major role in planning the service, had even 320 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: been Carl's lover before he met Anna. The art world 321 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: was small, and Anna's death was starting to divide it. 322 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: There were those who believed Carl that she jumped, or 323 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: that maybe it was a terrible accident. And there were those, 324 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: including many who identified as feminists, who were convinced that 325 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: he had a hand in her death. The memorial service 326 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: brought these two opposing factions into one elegant room. The 327 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,280 Speaker 1: memorial was in a landmarked building on Park Avenue called 328 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: the Salon Boulevard. It had the grandeur of a high 329 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 1: society mansion. Imagine Roman columns and crystal chandeliers. One of 330 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 1: the many artists in attendance was a woman named Anne Minich. 331 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: She described the service to the journalist Robert Katz. The 332 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: audio on this archival tape is a little hard to follow. 333 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: They had music that Anna love, and they had flowers, 334 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: and Anna of some of her Cuban friends brought a 335 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: record player and the old fashioned Afro Cuban music that 336 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: Anna loved to dance to. Anne said, tons of people 337 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: showed up, including Carl, and it was in this huge 338 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: room and there were sharedge amounts of people there, including 339 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 1: Carl Andre who came. And of course he would have 340 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: had to become because because his defense was that she 341 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: committed suicide. It was an impossible predicament. On the one hand, 342 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: Carl wasn't welcome, and on the other hand, not showing 343 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: up would have been tantamount to an admission of guilt. 344 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: On the day of the memorial, Lucy Lapard had a 345 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: difficult task. She had to tell Anna's family that Carl 346 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: would be in attendance. On a sister made it clear 347 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: that the family did not want to see him. Lapard 348 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: had already prepared for this by seating Carl in one 349 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 1: area and reserving seats for the family in another, such 350 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: that they couldn't see each other. Here's Anne minuture. He 351 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: sat over in the corner, and a lot of people, 352 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: he's a very powerful man, went over and they felt 353 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: very bad for him, and blah blah blah. It was, 354 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: you know, there's probably hard to take for some people 355 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: that he was being comforted as much as he was 356 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: because and Minis doesn't finish her sentence there, But it's 357 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: not hard to fill in the blanks. For the folks 358 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 1: who thought he killed her, his appearance must have been galling. 359 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: They had this set up, this slide show that was 360 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: continuous of the work, slide the documentation of her work 361 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: since from the time she was in Iowa. And then 362 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: after a while they asked people to start giving testimonials 363 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: the way Anne remembered it. Nobody sugarcoated their memories of Anna. 364 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: They described her as she was. It came out that 365 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: Anna was a difficult person. It gave the thing a reality. 366 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: In other words, this was we're not memorializing a saint 367 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: who was being assumed into heaven. It was a very 368 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: impressive service. The most distasteful thing about the whole thing 369 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: was carl Andre being there with these girlfriends. Well, I 370 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,960 Speaker 1: understood that that was his girlfriend. And she would walk 371 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,399 Speaker 1: across the room and she would go get coffee or 372 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: whatever they were serving, and she would bring him back 373 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: to He sat like a bump in this place, and 374 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: he was like a specter. It was a strange thing 375 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 1: to see he con at or what happened. This has 376 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: got to be a terrible thing for him. How you 377 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: saw Carl sitting in the corner depended entirely on whether 378 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: you thought he bore any responsibility for Anna's death. But 379 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: however uncomfortable his presence was, Anna's presence loomed larger. Oh, 380 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: I know that the memorial service was completely impression was 381 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: very well done. It was we got a real sense 382 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: of how these women were willing to pull behind her. 383 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: Anna's memorial was the first gathering where it was clear 384 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: just how ruthlessly this small community had been torn apart. 385 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: That night divided the Soho art world, and the tale 386 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: of the two Carls began. There was guilty Carl, an 387 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: innocent Carl. There was Carl the person and Carl the artist. 388 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: There were those who loved Anna and wanted to see 389 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: him convicted, and others who loved Carl and wanted to 390 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: protect him. And when these two groups of people would 391 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: meet in a gallery on the street at a bar 392 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 1: or restaurant, which inevitably happened, things could get dramatic. Honest 393 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: friend Eletroyano remembered an encounter with Carl. He was at 394 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,239 Speaker 1: a diner and at some point I used jilled at 395 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: him that he was a murderer. But you know, he 396 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: didn't do anything. He wasn't going to be confrontational. His 397 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 1: thing is manipulation and silence. Here's Carl's friend and fellow artist, 398 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: Laurence Weener. Well, sometimes people would scream at you on 399 00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 1: the street. I would usually just ignore it, just stare 400 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: at them. The majority of people who had something to 401 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: say were quite provincial people. There was quite a confrontational thing. 402 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: People saw this as the demarking of a feminist issue. 403 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: The feminist issue, as Laurence Wiener called it, began when 404 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: it became clear that Anna's friends were pushing for the investigation. 405 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: The women who knew Anna best knew the following things. 406 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: She was excited about her work and had plans for 407 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 1: the future. She was about to file for divorce. She 408 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: was afraid of heights, and they knew that if they 409 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: wanted justice, they'd have to fight like hell for it. 410 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 1: These women included Natalia del Go, who was herself a lawyer, 411 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: be Ruby Rich, who was writing for the Village Voice 412 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: and had the power of the pen, and Anna's devoted 413 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: sister roc Lean and they were all talking to the 414 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: young assistant Da Martha Bashford, who in her five years 415 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: on the job had already seen plenty of cases of 416 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: men assaulting their wives, girlfriends, daughters or nieces. These women 417 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: were prepared to use whatever power and influence they had 418 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: to convict Carl Andre and the pro Carl camp, the 419 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: friends who bailed him out of jail and decided there 420 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: was quote nothing more to say. They took note of 421 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 1: this group of women, and that's how the journalist Robert 422 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: Katz entered the picture. He had covered the art world. 423 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: He understood that Carl Andre was already a canonical figure, 424 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: and one of Carl's supporters told him quote the poor 425 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: guy as being victimized by a feminist cabal. The folks 426 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: who supported Carl simply assumed the cats would be on 427 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 1: their side, which is of course why they asked him 428 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: to look into the case. But that's not what happened. 429 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: Here's a bit from his interview over dinner with Carol 430 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: and Saul Lowit have you wudn't covered anything but shopping, 431 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: the biggest shocking thing that lives and currents the strange 432 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: kind of networking that went to protector if you talk 433 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: to Pauloopfen. I have talked Polo s part of the networks. Yeah, 434 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: she was one of the people who wanted things to 435 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 1: write about this, But really from from Kyle, from their 436 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: point of view, that was that the sub exactly is 437 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: the point of views that at one point it was 438 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: what they believed was that feminist cabals sort of aout 439 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: to get it with the district attorney. So they threw 440 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: it as something, you know, like some evil force behind 441 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: So when I got to look at that, I didn't 442 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: agree with them. That's that it was some sort of blob. 443 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: What is their scenario for the event? I would like 444 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: to accept whatever he said, he said very little. What 445 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: is the problem with his story was that he contradicted 446 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: the self stuff for a time that first day and 447 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: then it's lawyer's all to shut up, said, it's an 448 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: episode of word after. I wish there was a feminist cabal. 449 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: I don't think there was one, and I don't think 450 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: there is one now. That's Connie Butler, chief curator at 451 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: the Hammer Museum, who legendarily organized the most comprehensive exhibition 452 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: of feminist art to date. Connie is one of the 453 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: most respected curators in the art world. Cabal is just 454 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: another word for in a way at which hunt you know. 455 00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: It's just it's generations, old stories and year of women 456 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: and the power that they might have if they really 457 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: were to organize. Just for fun, I looked up cabal 458 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: in the dictionary. It means a secret political clique or faction. 459 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: And it's true that b ruby Rich in, Natalia Delgado 460 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,960 Speaker 1: and a few other women had meetings with the assistant 461 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: da It's true there was a letter writing campaign and 462 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: a series of phone calls and meetings to see if 463 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: any of Carl's x's would verify rumors that he had 464 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: been violent. Nothing came of it, but it wasn't a secret. 465 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: The folks agitating for Anna were highly vocal, and it 466 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: certainly wasn't all the feminists banding together against Carl. Notably, 467 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: both Lucy Lepard and Paula Cooper, two of the most 468 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: powerful women in the art world, would not speak out 469 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: against him. As b ruby Rich wrote in The Village Voice, 470 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: the folks who supported Anna were quote the feminist artists, 471 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 1: Latino artist, black writers, and unintimidated Cubans, all of whom had, 472 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: as she would say, more passion than power, so not 473 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: exactly a cabal. And what's underneath that, of course, is 474 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: a long history and deeply rooted misogyny that gets thrown 475 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: around too easily. In circumstances like this, it's easy to 476 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: blame the feminist cabal. Yep, Blaming feminism definitely has a history. 477 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: And it wasn't only Carl's protectors back then who use 478 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 1: this kind of language in which they imagine a coordinated 479 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: plot in which they are the victims rather than the 480 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: women who they've harmed. We still hear this kind of 481 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: thinking from our entertainers, politicians, and even Supreme Court justices. 482 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: No one can question your effort, but your coordinated and 483 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: well funded effort to destroy my good name and destroy 484 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: my family. After Anna's memorial, the criminal justice system slowly 485 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: turned its wheels. Martha Bashford, the assistant DA, made two 486 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: attempts to indict Karl, and both times she succeeded in 487 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 1: getting the grand jury to agree with her and indict 488 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: him on murder charges, and both times those indictments were 489 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 1: thrown out on technicalities. Even though the judge wrote, quote, 490 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: it appears that there may still remain sufficient evidence to 491 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 1: sustain the indictment. It was coming up on a year 492 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: since her death, and Team Anna was starting to fear 493 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 1: that the DA's office might drop the case completely, so 494 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: b ruby Rich made a Hail Mary pass in the 495 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: pages of the Village Voice. The reason I wrote the 496 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: article on the first anniversary of her death was to 497 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:47,319 Speaker 1: try to raise the profile of the case again in 498 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: public and make it too embarrassing for the district attorney 499 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: to drop the case and let Karl off the hook. 500 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: In that article, b ruby Rich wrote the follow A 501 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,360 Speaker 1: woman artist tells Anna's sister some damaging information about Andrea, 502 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: then retracts it after consulting with her husband. A businessman 503 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,640 Speaker 1: tells an artist friend of mine a story about Andre 504 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: ripping up a bar in the sixties, then denies it 505 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: to a reporter. Another woman artist still remembers Andrea's verbal 506 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: viciousness towards his first wife, but she won't go public either. 507 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: I believed that this had killed feminism. I thought it 508 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: was a sense of someone this tough, this strong, this brilliant, 509 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: this passionate. As Anna could be killed, then any of 510 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: us could be killed. If it could happen to her, 511 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: then nobody stood a chance. B ruby Rich hoped her 512 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,840 Speaker 1: article would bring women forward, women who could verify the 513 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 1: rumors circulating about Carl Sadly, nobody came forward as a 514 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: result of that article. However, it did accomplish its main goal, 515 00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: which was to actually get the indictment and bring him 516 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: to trial. And that last indictment stuck. And then when 517 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: they assigned a new assistant DA and it went to trial, 518 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: I felt, Wow, it really did work. Carl Andre was 519 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:24,919 Speaker 1: about to be tried for murder next time on Death 520 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: of an Artist, Jack Hoffinger stood up and said, my 521 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: client wishes to waive a jury. No one could remember 522 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,360 Speaker 1: the last time anybody had ever waived a jury and 523 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: murder trial. It's a very very rare event. That was 524 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,799 Speaker 1: truly an amazing surprise. He was not going to throw 525 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,359 Speaker 1: her shout out a lingo. Did its squalidness ever make 526 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 1: you not want to go and see his show? Now? 527 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: I have nine key to show. There was this crazy 528 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: thing called artistic license, which meant that artists get excused 529 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: because whatever it is that they produced is so much 530 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: more important than whatever damage they could do to people 531 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: in our lives. Death of an Artist is a co 532 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: production between Pushkin Industries, Something Else and Sony Music Entertainment, 533 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:15,319 Speaker 1: written and hosted by me Helen Mouldsworth. Executive producers are 534 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: Lizzie Jacobs, Tom kinig Leta Mulad, Jacob Weissberg and Lucas Werner. 535 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: Produced by Maria Luisa Tucker, editing by Lizzie Jacobs. Our 536 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 1: managing producer is Jacob Smith. Associate producers are Pooge Rue 537 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: and Eloise Linton. Additional production helped by Tally Abacassas. Anna 538 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: Mendieta's quotes were read by Tanya Burgera engineered by Sam Baer, 539 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: fact checking by Andrea Lopez Crusado. Our theme song is 540 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 1: by Pooge Rue. Special thanks to a Lise Resmussen. If 541 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: you love this show, consider subscribing to pushkin Plus to 542 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,359 Speaker 1: listen early, ad free and get exclusive bonus content. Look 543 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,359 Speaker 1: for the pushkin plus channel on Apple Podcasts or at 544 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: pushkin dot Fm. Find more great podcasts from Sonymusic Entertainment 545 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: at sonymusic dot com Backslash Podcasts