WEBVTT - Hell! Hell! Hell! 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:13.760 Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:19.720 There's Charles w St. Chuck Bryant uh, and st. Jerome 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.160 Rowland is out there as well. I'm not a staying 0:00:22.239 --> 0:00:24.840 I'm sinner. Uh. And this is stuff you should know. 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:29.760 The first real episode of the New Year, it is Chuck. 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:34.800 It's uh beyond the future now, It's that's so futuristic, 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:37.840 no one ever even used it in a sci fi book. 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:41.879 That's right. We we had our are what we like 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:45.200 to call our elementary school Christmas break, which means it's 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.800 about three and a half weeks long. We worked hard 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.000 for that. We do, so you better treat us, right. 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:56.680 That's that's right. How was your holiday? Good? It was good. 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.360 I've I finally got to just kind of disconnect and 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:03.200 decouple and just relax. And it was not Actually I 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:07.440 went I went the entire time without cracking my computer open. 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.200 I was really proud of that. Yeah, I couldn't believe it. 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:13.000 Like I did stuff on my phone that I needed to, 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:15.959 but I just there was a ban on opening my laptops, 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:19.680 even just for funzies. Yeah, no, poin didn't. I didn't 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:24.039 want to write. I didn't want to see uh computer 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:26.280 or a keyboard for a little while, and I was 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:28.600 able to do it. Yeah, that I just did. The 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.959 porn was all just like I just made drawings myself, right, 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:38.319 flip books. I uh loved doing things in my laptop. 0:01:38.360 --> 0:01:41.080 But I was proud of myself for not looking at 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:44.160 any work emails. I did a little bit at first, because, 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.480 as you know, some buttoning up into the year stuff. 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:49.320 But then I was just like, you know what, and 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.080 you know what I put as my I mean, you've 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:58.000 seen my occasional auto reply, which is, uh, if it's 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:02.240 an emergency, please realize that there are no podcast emergency, 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:07.080 which is sort of true. It's I think true. Actually. 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.680 And you got your slide whistle. I did. I don't 0:02:10.680 --> 0:02:13.080 have it with me right now or else. I dang, 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.000 we got a debut the slide whistle later because I 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.360 got to hear that thing. Yes, we do, thank you 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:22.160 for that. Did you get your gift from me? I did? Okay, good. 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.200 I thought that that you would find that wildly appropriate 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:30.320 and it helped out our buddy too. That's right. Um. 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.440 And so we're just gonna wade into some easy, easy 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:38.760 waters here with hell. Hell. This is tough. Man. I 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:40.600 was like, who's dumb idea was this? And I realized 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.640 it was mine? Uh so I never forgot. Yeah, the 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:48.720 c I a here is is that. I mean, people 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:51.320 like I think the Grabster helped us put this together. 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:54.600 He said, people make their entire careers out of just 0:02:54.760 --> 0:03:00.160 Dante's Inferno, much less concepts of Hell. And uh it 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:03.440 is very broad and dense and confusing, and so this 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:05.840 is sort of a just a stuff you shouldn't know 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:07.960 stab at it. Yeah, and let me just add to 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.360 that that we are in no way, shape or form 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:15.040 biblical scholars, theologians. We're gonna get a lot of stuff wrong. 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.840 We're probably gonna walk right past interpretations they're popular and 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.800 widely accepted. We were like, this is this is just 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:24.560 us talking about hell, So just relax. We already know 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:26.920 we're going to hell, so there's nothing you can do 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:30.520 to us that's any worse. Um, So just calm down 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:33.520 and enjoy the episode. How about that? Enjoy this episode 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.920 about eternal conscious torment. Yeah, and if you are a 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:41.440 scholar of Dante, just don't even listen. Yeah, you will 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.520 literally puke into your cupped hands while you're listening to 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.040 this on the train because you're that polite. That's right, 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:52.280 go back and listen to the Science of Cute again. Um. Wow, 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:54.480 that was that was a reference to something that doesn't 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.720 even exist yet. That's hetty. Yeah, So Chuck, I want 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:03.000 to talk first. I'm mentioned eternal conscious torment, and that 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:07.800 is kind of like the the broad spectrum of what 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:12.360 most people walking around today in the Western world, whether 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.320 they're Christian or just familiar with the Christian concept of hell, 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:20.240 think of hell. It's where your your soul is tormented, 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:25.160 beaten up, bullied, um, maybe talked about behind its back, uh, 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:30.279 set on fire. Um. And in this in this state, um, 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:32.279 there's no dying, there's no death of the soul. The 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.440 soul is immortal. So this, this pain, this torment, this 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:38.680 horrible nous just keeps going on forever and ever and ever. 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.880 And that is that's that comes directly from St. Augustine, 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:45.880 who kind of plays big into this concept of hell. 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.520 But the idea that there's an immortal soul, that it 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:52.680 goes somewhere after death, and that depending on how it 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.640 behaved here on earth, um, it may or may not 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.520 face eternal conscious torment. That is seriously, it's the theological 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:03.400 term that they used today that strikes some people, some theologians, 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:08.039 is wildly disproportionate to the kinds of sins we're talking 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:12.359 about here, Like like you over indulged in fudge brownie 0:05:12.400 --> 0:05:15.799 mix during your time on Earth means that you're going 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:20.880 to be to just suffer a literal, not never ending, infinite, 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:26.520 eternal torment of damnation because you over indulged in brownie mix. 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:29.960 That just doesn't quite jibe for some people. So there 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:33.080 there have been other alternatives that were posed many many 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:35.719 years ago, that were actually around in some cases before 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:40.599 eternal conscious torment came around. Um that some people are saying, like, hey, 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:44.880 maybe this is a better interpretation of what's actually going 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:49.240 on with Hell. Are you familiar with those other interpretations well? 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:57.520 Which ones, uh, namely universalism and annihilationism. Mm hmm. This 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.080 was that thing that I was saying, we got to 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.040 talk about these such check this out. I'm gonna let 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.760 me wow you for a second, okay, because these are 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:08.040 to me, the softer, gentler versions of hell. One is 0:06:08.520 --> 0:06:13.440 that the universalism. Another terms universal salvation, and it's this 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:18.640 idea that there is an end, there's a there's a 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:23.279 finite date to the to the torment, and that you're 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:27.200 basically going to hell depending on how badly you sinned. 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.799 But over time you can kind of work that sin 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:33.640 off and you will eventually come out the other end 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:38.279 saved and go to heaven. And that that happens to everybody. 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.160 Everyone is is it can possibly go to heaven through 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:44.600 this idea. The other is annihilationism, which makes a lot 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:48.480 of sense to if you believe in this kind of stuff. That, um, 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:52.200 the people who are saved, the righteous, the virtuous, people 0:06:52.240 --> 0:06:54.080 who are going to go to heaven, they go on 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:58.080 to heaven after they die. Everybody else just ceases to exist. 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:02.279 They're annihilated upon death. No hell, but there's no heavenly 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.200 reward for those people. I like those a lot more 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:08.760 than eternal conscious torment. The thing is, eternal conscious torment 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:15.320 is so gripping. Yeah, that it's it's like this is 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.440 this is this is just what people think of when 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:19.760 they think of hell. And apparently, if you're an evangelical 0:07:19.800 --> 0:07:23.320 in particular and you believe in anything but eternal conscious torment, 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:27.400 you're you're you're flirting with being shunned by your peers 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:31.120 because you're you're going in the face of Orthodoxy. Well, yeah, 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:32.960 I mean, you know, it's it's a lot to unpack. 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:39.240 I know, you grew up fairly Catholic, and I've regret 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:41.160 how many times I've had to say the word Baptist 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:43.760 on this show. I feel like there's a lot of 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:46.960 people taking a shot right now if this is the 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.960 stuff you should know, drinking game. But I can't not 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:54.160 mention that growing up Baptist, it's a very uh, you know, 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:58.760 it's a very fiery, brimstony um religion and it's um. 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:02.720 I very much up with the concept, this very sort 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:07.480 of trophy concept of heaven is this um you know, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.320 lovely place where God lives. It's in the up there 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:14.160 in the clouds, and you go up and then if 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:18.440 you're not good, then you go down to somewhere, I 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:20.559 guess in the center of the earth where the devil 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:24.200 lives and where Satan pokes you, and where you are 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:26.920 you know, there's lakes of fire and it's all very 0:08:26.960 --> 0:08:28.960 scary and and you know, it wasn't until I got 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:30.920 a little bit older that I realized that these are 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:35.800 stories told to get children in line. Yeah, and not 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:39.280 just children, adults who go on to continue to believe 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.600 in how you know and and to subscribe to this stuff. 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:43.840 For sure, it's definitely a way to keep people in line. 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:49.679 But the concept of hell generally in the concept of souls. Uh. 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:52.719 And this is probably no surprise to most um sort 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:55.720 of critical thinkers. But you know, the the idea of 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.280 being worm dirt and after you die, that's just it 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.680 is a lot to take gone as you approached that day. Yeah, 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:05.480 so it is really it makes a lot of sense. 0:09:05.520 --> 0:09:08.280 I think that people from very early on started to 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.319 think about the concept of a soul um, a self 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:15.320 that lived on um. And you know, it just makes 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:18.640 sense that there's a quote good place in a bad place. Yeah. 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.560 But the thing is is, apparently it doesn't seem to 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:27.400 have necessarily been just like part and parcels. From from 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:29.559 what Ed's saying and from what I saw elsewhere in 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:34.520 the research, is that heaven seemed to have developed first 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:37.920 very early on, and then there was a real emphasis 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.520 on symmetry in the ancient and in like pre modern world, 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:43.880 where if you had one you had the opposite and 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:46.920 equal proportions. So eventually over time that kind of was 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:50.360 like well, if there's this really lovely place that's like 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.200 paradise after you die, then there has to be the 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:56.000 opposite of that, the antithesis of that too, And that's 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.040 where this development of hell came from. But the fact 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.719 that hell wasn't hasn't always been around her as long 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.040 as you know, the idea of the afterlife, and then 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:07.560 the idea that it wasn't ever hasn't always been this 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.320 place where you're you were subject to the most cruel 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:18.440 kinds of punishments available to to the human imagination. Right. Yeah, Um, 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:21.240 that that's not that's not as old as as the 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:23.960 idea of the afterlife either. That that was really surprising 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.959 to me. But it's it's pretty neat because it's weird. 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:32.160 It's almost like humanity got infected by a germ of 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:38.720 real meanness and in darkness that we're still living with today, 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:40.800 and that you could kind of trace it in in 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:43.640 the evolution of our idea of hell as well or 0:10:43.679 --> 0:10:49.120 to the beginnings of Twitter. That's that's right. So, uh, 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.880 that's evil incarnate. It depends on what religions you're talking about, 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:58.200 but virtually every religion has some sort of afterlife concept. Um. 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:02.120 Early judy is Um. Of course certainly does. If you 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.840 read back, um ed described something from the Sumerian underworld, 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:10.720 where they kind of more talk about hell as uh 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.959 or the afterlife I guess is just sort of boring. Uh. 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:15.520 And there wasn't you know, you didn't go to a 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.800 fiery place where you're tormented. Um. They talk about, you know, 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:23.600 being thirsty and eating dust. Certainly unpleasant. Um. But then 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:28.839 this idea starts where you can be in a better 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:32.240 place in the afterlife according to what you've achieved on earth, 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:36.840 but not necessarily good deeds at first. Like if you're 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.640 really rich, then you're gonna go to a good place 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.800 because your family could afford to bury you with food 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.360 and drink and jewels and gold and stuff like that 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:50.040 to carry with you to the other side, and that 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.640 would put you in a much better standing. But again, 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:54.480 this is not like I was a good person. This 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.200 is just I died rich. So all these really valuable 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.240 things they could put underground and bury with me. Right, 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:03.360 But in the same way to the living could care 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.200 for you. They could. You might not be rich, but 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:08.800 your family might care so much about you that they 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.679 come on every Sunday whatever they called Sunday's back when 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.760 the Sumerians were running around, um and bring you like 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.520 a little food and a little beer or something like that. 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:23.360 And and they were sustaining you in this place where 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.800 everybody else was eating dust and dirt. But your family 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:27.840 so loved you because you've been such a good person 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:30.400 during your time while you were alive, that they were 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:33.760 coming and bringing you like bread and beer. Um. And 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:36.880 in that sense, also, Chuck, is really kind of poetic 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:41.360 because you, that person, are living on in the memories 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:45.080 of your family after you died, because they're coming and 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:47.720 keeping your memory alive by bringing you bread and beer 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:50.079 and all that. And so in that way, you are 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:52.680 living on in this kind of immortal means as well. 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:56.559 But the converse of that is really disturbing, and that 0:12:56.600 --> 0:12:59.760 if you don't inspire people to care about you afterwards, 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:03.200 like you really ceased to exist, like there's there's there's 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.760 no one on earth who's thinking of you, are honoring you. 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.080 And in that sense, if there is no afterlife you you, 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:12.520 that is annihilation. That is true oblivion. What Disney or 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.640 Pixar movie is it? I saw it recently, that has 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:19.400 to do it. It's brutal um like you're being erased 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:23.600 and until you're remembered after death, Eternal Sunshine, the Spotless Mind. 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.720 Now I know it's called inside out. Maybe no, that's 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.200 the one about the emotions, which is equally brutal. Yeah, 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:33.679 I don't think that. I thought her. I thought the 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:37.559 kids like imaginary friend was being erased or demolished. And 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:39.960 then was that in that movie? I think so? Yeah, 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:45.000 remember the elephant that was like George Clooney's friend Richard 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:50.280 has it right now? It certainly seems that, Oh, I 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:54.120 can't remember. And this is officially marks the first podcast 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.520 of the year where people are screaming at us, which 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.400 is coincidentally the first podcast of the year that we record. 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:04.760 That's right. Um, I think it's Egypt, Ancient Egypt, where 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:08.760 the first the first idea of like, um, this this 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:13.600 weird sort of afterlife, uh judgment panel sort of steps 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.880 in where you know, there are people like literally in 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:20.280 charge of this thing, almost like a bureaucracy, and there's 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:22.840 an administration and it's it sounds a little bit more 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:26.880 like Sammy David's JRS sitcom pilot that failed. Oh yeah, 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:31.840 I forgot about that. She Devil. I don't remember it. 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.680 Definitely wasn't she devil? That was wasn't it was something 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:36.880 like that though, Yeah, but it was that was pretty good. 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:42.080 The show was, I mean the the like one minute 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:46.200 trailer I saw me pretty good. Um. But this, you know, 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.200 the ancient Judaism sort of overlaps with some of this stuff. 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.160 But Judaism is a it's a it's a whole different 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:56.520 thing because you know, they have references. There's a lot 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.080 of references to things that were later just sort of 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:02.560 rewritten and reach translated as hell, which makes it really 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:07.720 confusing if you look at ancient texts. Yeah, Judaism head shield, um, 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.960 which is it kind of follows in that same tradition, uh, 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:15.040 from the pre Christian era that like when you died, 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.720 there was an afterlife and there wasn't much to it. 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.080 It wasn't but it wasn't it wasn't particularly pleasant. Yeah. 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.760 Apparently to the to the the early Jews, they were 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.600 they were basically saying like this is it's the state 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:34.880 of mind after death more than like if interdimensional like 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.120 physical place that exists outside of this world, not like 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.680 a realm. But yeah, like you're saying like a, yeah, 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:44.800 like I guess a state of mind as far as 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.800 as that as that goes. But it also suggests that 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.640 you still have a mind after you die well, and 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.240 it also suggests that um, I mean, there's a little 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:57.200 bit of the punishment and reward, but it's not necessarily 0:15:57.800 --> 0:15:59.640 you go to the fiery place or you go to 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.480 have and it's a little more of a spiritual connection, 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.280 like if you did good on earth, you're gonna spend 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.120 your afterlife a little closer to God. If you're not 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.680 such a great person, you're gonna be, you know, a 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:15.320 little further away from God, right, right. But but overall, 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:19.360 the point of she'all was that no matter what you 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.360 did on earth, no matter who you were, good person, 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:26.200 bad person, doesn't matter, you were going to go to 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.400 the same place. And even at the time, apparently they 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.520 realized that this was unjust. There's like a part of 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:36.200 I think Ecclesiastes that says that the fact that there 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.640 are that everybody goes to the same place, no matter 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:40.840 how good or bad you are in life. This is 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:44.080 the injustice that is done under the sun. The same 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:48.160 fate comes to everyone, which I didn't realize that Ecclesiastes rhyme, 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:51.360 but it's got a nice, nice beat to it, nice tempo. 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.360 Does it doesn't all rhyme? Does it? I don't think so. 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.240 I was kind of surprised at any of it rhyme. 0:16:57.640 --> 0:16:59.880 But there's that That's a really important point, Chuck that 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:04.600 um to these ancient people, whether they were the early 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.520 Jews or the Canaanites or um or the Egyptians, there 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.800 was there was not punishment in the afterlife. God punished 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:15.200 you during life like you you were suddenly you know, 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.600 like directing or something like that. That was punishment from God. 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.040 As we kind of evolved away from that, the idea 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:25.119 that God had a direct daily hand in our lives 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:29.600 as a as a a species, that punishment moved to 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.520 the afterlife rather than during this life, right, which is 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:38.280 not recognized. And Judaism of course as New Testament stuff now, 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:40.040 And there was something else that stuck out to me 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.280 is well, we'll kind of see in a second. Judaism 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:47.080 seems to have been developed as a religion um as 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.960 as contrary to some of the other religious beliefs that 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.440 were around, Like they seem to have really kind of 0:17:54.720 --> 0:18:00.440 opposed the Canaanites. The Canaanites were into child sacrifice. They um, 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:05.359 they had multiple gods, um. And the Jews kind of 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:09.000 played off of that, like some of these these devils 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:13.280 that we understand today, demons like malok and by all 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:17.560 you know, be a apostrophe a l um, those were 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:21.840 actually Canaanite gods, and they kind of perverted the pronunciation 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:23.720 of them to kind of mock them or make them 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.720 seem other or different. Um. And you think, like, well, 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:30.720 that's not very nice. That's one religion disparaging another. But 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:35.119 at the same time, the early Jews were saying like, also, 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.600 we shouldn't be sacrificing children, like that's not that's not 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.960 a good thing to do. Let's practice this other thing instead. 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:44.840 So I'm I'm kind of a fan of the the 0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.480 of early Judaism. It turns out I had no idea 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:51.520 you should convert. I just might. Should we take a break. 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:54.440 I think we should. All right, let's take a break. 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:56.320 We'll read up a little bit on whether or not 0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:00.199 you're allowed to convert, because I don't even know, and 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:24.240 then we'll be back right after this. Have you converted? 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:27.280 I looked it up. I'm not allowed to. It would 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:31.360 require me to be religious. Oh well, interesting. Uh So 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:33.560 we talked a little bit about the sort of the 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.840 confusion of I mean, a lot of the confusion in 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:41.000 what we think of as hell lies in um. Just 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.840 these these texts, some Hebrew text and translations and miss 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.040 translations and stories that are told, you know, the old 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.680 game of telephone that happened throughout the years while these 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.520 things were passed on. So there's a lot of things 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:56.479 that you know over the years that you've thought of 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:01.960 sort of as a generic hell, like Haiti, which was Greek, 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:06.560 the Greek underworld um also synonymous with the shield, but 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:10.800 not Hell. Uh. There's Tartarus that's in the Old Testament, 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:14.159 also from the Greeks, that more closely resembles Hell from 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:16.080 what I could tell. Yeah, and that's like a part 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:20.480 of the underworld where God's in prison enemies. Um. There 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:24.879 is like punishment, it's fiery and maybe that concept and 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:26.600 like a lot of this what we're doing is sort 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.679 of unpacking what we think of as hell now and 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:31.840 sort of where this stuff came from. And it seems 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.240 like Tartarus is uh is definitely one of those places. Yeah, 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:40.080 And like Hades and she all more closely resemble purgatory 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:45.080 um or Limbo, where Tartarus. Yes, is definitely hell. Hell, 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.440 Like that's where torment and fire is and all all 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.199 this stuff that's really kind of like popped up to me. 0:20:51.280 --> 0:20:55.240 It's like, wow, this is like are what we think 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:58.280 of as hell today? Even like the cartoon Hell with 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:00.639 like the pitchfork in the fire and all that stuff. 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:05.080 This is some ancient stuff that it's built on. Over 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:09.360 EON's you know, like the earliest people who started burying 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:11.720 their dead because they thought like maybe there was a 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:14.760 life afterward. And it just kind of evolved from that, Colonel, 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:17.439 and more and more civilizations came along and added to 0:21:17.480 --> 0:21:19.359 it and subtracted to it and said no, you're wrong, 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:21.200 No you're wrong, and let's go to war over this. 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:27.280 Like Hell is like this hammered steel drum that's been 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:32.240 hammered out by you know, millennia of of people and cultures, 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:35.199 and it sounds pretty good. Yeah. I thought you were 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:38.600 about to say by John Bonham did he play a 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:41.520 steel drum? No, but it just you sounded it sounded 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:43.360 like the intro to it led Zeppelin song their first 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:47.000 second um Gehenna is something else we should mention. This 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:50.160 is another kind of quote unquote hell um But this 0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:52.000 was a real place. It was a literal place near 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:55.439 Jerusalem where it sounds like it was kind of a 0:21:57.040 --> 0:22:01.720 uh some sort of ancient uh almost the word I'm 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:05.600 looking for, not necessarily a where where do you take 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:10.040 all the trash? Episode about it? Land land? Yeah, sort 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:13.960 of a landfill on fire. Okay, that's one interpretation, which 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:17.679 is a great record title. I think landfill, Yeah, why not? 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:21.720 But this is where they like would take stuff to burn, um, 0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:25.240 trash basically. And uh there might have also been child 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:28.000 sacrifice happening there because I guess they figured, well, there's 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:31.359 a fire already happening, so we won't have to start one. Um. 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:33.919 It depends on what source you're looking at. But it 0:22:34.080 --> 0:22:37.600 became a metaphorical hell where a place that was on fire. 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:40.520 You could be sent there. It was a place of judgment, 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:43.840 you could be cast into it. Uh. And that's in 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.520 the New Testament of course. Um. So that's another sort 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:53.160 of hades like um, I guess usage that just makes 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:56.239 it all the more confusing. Yeah. But again, like like 0:22:56.320 --> 0:22:59.080 you know, as we're getting further and further along and 0:22:59.119 --> 0:23:01.800 deeper and deeper into Christianity, which we haven't quite hit yet, 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:05.480 when Gehennah was first introduced because I think that's Jewish, right, 0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:09.480 It's like a Jewish So even though it is in 0:23:09.520 --> 0:23:13.000 the New Testament um, which has even more confusing right, 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:15.640 but it kind of shows you how like connected, like 0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:19.000 these these civilizations and groups were over the ages, you 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:21.600 know that this still popped up just borrowing things from 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:25.280 one another exactly. But then as these translations, you know, 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:27.639 kind of go on over the centuries and there's newer 0:23:27.680 --> 0:23:30.040 and different versions of the Bible and the New Testament, 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:33.639 the Old Testament, like you know, all these things just 0:23:33.720 --> 0:23:38.000 become this generic Hell, which kind of opens it up two, 0:23:39.600 --> 0:23:42.960 making how this big, huge, amorphous place where oh, it's 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:44.800 like this, but it's also like this, and it's like that. 0:23:45.000 --> 0:23:49.280 And by naming everything just Hell and losing that kind 0:23:49.280 --> 0:23:53.560 of the ethnicity involved, the Christians were able to kind 0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:57.840 of wholesale adopt all of these ancient traditions and conceptions 0:23:57.840 --> 0:24:01.560 of Hell into their own version of Hell. And this 0:24:01.600 --> 0:24:04.720 is the Christian Hell, whereas if you kind of start 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:07.200 poking behind it, you're like, oh, this is this Christian 0:24:07.240 --> 0:24:09.240 Hell is made up of all these other conceptions of 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:12.719 hell along the way. So as far as like uh, 0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:15.120 and I love that Ed calls a section the topology 0:24:15.119 --> 0:24:17.720 of Hell, but that's sort of you know, a big 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:20.520 part of it is um. And we mentioned a little 0:24:20.560 --> 0:24:23.199 bit Heaven as this place where God lives that's above you, 0:24:23.280 --> 0:24:26.480 up in the sky because it's pretty no one really 0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:29.000 knows exactly where all that comes from, but it all 0:24:29.160 --> 0:24:32.840 does make sense UM that you know, you look to 0:24:32.880 --> 0:24:35.920 the skies when you pray, you look up when you're 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:38.919 talking to God. And if that's the case, then it 0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:41.520 makes sense that, like you said, with the symmetry, that 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:44.560 there is another place we bury the dead underground, it 0:24:44.600 --> 0:24:47.800 makes sense that there would be a place that's deep 0:24:47.840 --> 0:24:51.919 and dark and fiery. I guess you know, cave like 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:55.240 deep underground. That stuff is scary. So it makes sense 0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:57.960 that Hell just sort of became this place that's uh, 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:01.240 for lack of a better word, under our eat somewhere. Yeah. 0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:04.120 And what was interesting to me is that like disconnected 0:25:04.520 --> 0:25:09.040 UM groups and cultures, not just geographically but through time 0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:13.400 as well, all had that same conception that like Hell 0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:17.359 was underground and Heaven was somewhere above us or in 0:25:17.400 --> 0:25:21.600 the sky. UM like the Mayan's had a place called Shebalba, 0:25:21.760 --> 0:25:24.639 which is like I guess translates to a place of fear, 0:25:25.200 --> 0:25:27.280 and that is when you die. You start out there 0:25:27.280 --> 0:25:29.639 and it's underground, and it's hellish and scary, and you 0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:32.720 have to work your way up basically into the sky 0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:37.439 to paradise. Um, and she all was underground. It was 0:25:37.560 --> 0:25:40.880 connected to the grave, and that seems to be where 0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:44.360 this idea also not just that heaven was in the sky, 0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:48.320 so hell must be underground, but also that there has 0:25:48.359 --> 0:25:51.639 to be some connection underground because we've been burying people 0:25:52.400 --> 0:25:55.280 or at least putting our dead in you know, deep 0:25:55.359 --> 0:25:59.320 dark caves for at least a hundred and thirty thousand 0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:01.680 years from what I seen, but um, it may even 0:26:01.760 --> 0:26:05.080 go back before that. In Neanderthals, I think buried they're dead. 0:26:05.119 --> 0:26:08.840 Even so, it's a really kind of ancient impulse to 0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:12.119 like put your dead underground or in some some underground, 0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:15.480 subterranean place like a cave chamber. So of course that 0:26:15.520 --> 0:26:18.040 would be connected to the afterlife in some way. But 0:26:18.119 --> 0:26:20.919 it is interesting that it's like, as far as I 0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:23.400 can tell, there's not a single culture that's like, oh, yeah, 0:26:23.400 --> 0:26:26.080 that's where heaven is is underground. Yeah, And it's like 0:26:26.160 --> 0:26:29.480 I find myself saying, well, it makes sense because you 0:26:29.560 --> 0:26:32.040 climb your way out of hell with good works towards heaven. 0:26:32.200 --> 0:26:34.840 Like it's sort of a chicken or the egg thing, 0:26:34.880 --> 0:26:36.800 Like it makes sense to me, But it only makes 0:26:36.800 --> 0:26:40.400 sense because that's the way it's always been framed. Yeah, 0:26:40.480 --> 0:26:44.080 there's a few thousand years of culture behind that, that 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:47.280 way that you were raised or I was raised, you know. Yeah, 0:26:47.440 --> 0:26:50.879 so you mentioned purgatory. Um, this is the realm of 0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:55.040 the afterlife. Uh, purgatory is um. It's like a waiting 0:26:55.119 --> 0:26:58.919 room where you were waiting to be judged. Um. It 0:26:59.040 --> 0:27:01.479 is not. It's not like a great place. It's not 0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:04.160 like an awesome waiting room with like the best magazines. 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:09.439 It's more like the waiting room with umoylights and high lights, right, 0:27:09.760 --> 0:27:12.240 nothing but highlights and boys life and all of the 0:27:12.280 --> 0:27:14.720 puzzles are already filled out. Yeah or oh man. The 0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:18.600 worst is any doctor's office where it's nothing but like 0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:21.600 medical and health magazines. Like, no one wants to read 0:27:21.640 --> 0:27:24.159 that stuff in there, No they don't. You want to 0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:27.320 read a three year old sports illustrated right, and everybody 0:27:27.320 --> 0:27:29.280 else in the waiting room is not wearing a mask. 0:27:29.960 --> 0:27:34.320 Oh no, thank you. It's it's the version of hell. Dude. 0:27:34.320 --> 0:27:37.640 That's my new nightmare. I've had having those about three 0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:42.480 times a week where I'm being descended upon. There they 0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:45.359 seem like zombies, but they're just people without mask right, 0:27:45.400 --> 0:27:49.040 it's weird potato potato. But you know what's funny? Has 0:27:49.119 --> 0:27:50.840 this has happened to you where you where you watch 0:27:50.960 --> 0:27:53.439 like movies or TV shows or something pre COVID and 0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:56.200 it's like you're way too close to that person. Get back, 0:27:57.080 --> 0:28:01.720 like we have been changed, man, possibly for ever. Oh 0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:04.479 I think you'd be surprised how quickly we'll forget. I 0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:06.639 hope so, oh man, I hope, so, I hope this 0:28:06.680 --> 0:28:08.919 all just becomes like some bad dream that just fades 0:28:08.960 --> 0:28:11.600 over time. And now my mom's getting vaccinated this Saturday. 0:28:11.880 --> 0:28:14.919 Good for her, Jack, she needs to do live on 0:28:14.960 --> 0:28:18.040 Instagram or something. Yeah. She was like, you know, should 0:28:18.040 --> 0:28:20.560 I have any reservations? It was like nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. 0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:23.199 And she's like, well then I mean I have to 0:28:23.200 --> 0:28:26.119 wait in line. You're like, oh, those reservations, make reservations, 0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:31.240 make reservations, but yes, stuck. Being stuck in purgatory is 0:28:31.240 --> 0:28:34.800 not a good thing. Um, so it's not it's not hell, 0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:36.680 but it's not someplace where you want to be. That's 0:28:36.680 --> 0:28:39.440 why people you know, use that term now like I'm 0:28:39.440 --> 0:28:43.200 in purgatory. Yeah, And there's something about purgatory that hadn't 0:28:43.320 --> 0:28:46.800 really realized it. It's not interchangeable with limbo. When you 0:28:46.840 --> 0:28:50.040 go into limbo, you're there forever, Like that's where you 0:28:50.080 --> 0:28:53.280 spend eternity, sometimes by no fault of your own. Like 0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:57.240 this is where people who lived before Christ ever existed, 0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:01.280 um go after they die, because they can't possibly have 0:29:01.320 --> 0:29:04.920 been Christians, so they're not being punished, but they're not 0:29:05.000 --> 0:29:07.840 being rewarded by you know, in heaven. It's kind of mean. 0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:11.560 Purgatory is a place where you I guess have to 0:29:11.640 --> 0:29:14.280 have been a Christian but maybe elapsed Christian, a Christian 0:29:14.320 --> 0:29:17.520 who sin something like that, to where you can you 0:29:17.560 --> 0:29:20.840 can work it off and and you know, go on 0:29:21.040 --> 0:29:24.840 to heaven. And that's kind of that universalism or universal 0:29:24.840 --> 0:29:27.600 salvation idea. It's like that's all there is. The hell 0:29:27.720 --> 0:29:30.680 is purgatory where you can work it off over time 0:29:30.760 --> 0:29:34.800 and and be saved. And then also really jibes too 0:29:34.840 --> 0:29:40.120 with this idea chuck of Um of the Buddhist hell. Basically, 0:29:40.160 --> 0:29:42.800 the Buddhists have a concept of hell where I think 0:29:42.880 --> 0:29:47.080 called naraka, which is also a Hindu concept. But um, 0:29:47.120 --> 0:29:50.960 there's this this idea that you're you're there for very 0:29:51.040 --> 0:29:52.760 in in each of these hells. You have to go 0:29:52.800 --> 0:29:56.960 through these hells, and your lifetime there's very specific, like 0:29:57.040 --> 0:29:59.840 your your lifetime in this hell is one point six 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:02.720 two trillion years, and then the next hell is like, 0:30:02.960 --> 0:30:05.880 you know, a quadrillion years or something like that. Um, 0:30:05.960 --> 0:30:09.440 but you eventually work your karma off on Earth. And 0:30:09.480 --> 0:30:13.240 if there's a real striking resemblance this Buddhist hell to 0:30:13.800 --> 0:30:17.360 some you know, Christian and Jewish interpretations of hell, or 0:30:17.360 --> 0:30:19.880 I should say some Christian interpretations of hell where you 0:30:19.920 --> 0:30:22.240 can work off your bad deeds and then go on 0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:25.920 to Nirvana or heaven. That's because they'll borrowed from one another, 0:30:26.360 --> 0:30:29.120 it's really I mean, that's basically the fact of the 0:30:29.160 --> 0:30:34.920 podcast is that there's a lot of um incestuous interchange 0:30:35.160 --> 0:30:39.760 between the religions overlap, that's another way to put it. 0:30:40.320 --> 0:30:43.040 What I think is also interesting is the concept of 0:30:43.520 --> 0:30:47.520 temperature in hell. Um, it's a very big deal. You 0:30:47.560 --> 0:30:51.080 always think of of fire and heat and sweatiness, but 0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:54.720 that's not always the case. There are frozen hell's um 0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:59.040 aside from you know, the Dakota's, Uh that Naraka you 0:30:59.080 --> 0:31:01.840 were talking about. I think that's a frozen hell, right, Yeah, 0:31:02.320 --> 0:31:06.560 there's eight hot hells and eight cold hells. And the 0:31:06.800 --> 0:31:09.360 eight cold hells are like, in this one, your skin 0:31:09.480 --> 0:31:11.480 starts a blister. In this one, it's so cold that 0:31:11.520 --> 0:31:14.400 the blisters break, and then it just keeps going from there, 0:31:14.440 --> 0:31:16.360 like all these horrible things happen to you from being 0:31:16.360 --> 0:31:19.560 exposed to the cold. Yeah, it's very interesting. I guess 0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:23.560 it's just sort of a variation of the same thing, 0:31:24.400 --> 0:31:27.640 like something really cold can burn you. Yeah, but I 0:31:27.680 --> 0:31:30.000 mean it really kind of gives you this idea, Chuck. 0:31:30.040 --> 0:31:35.040 There's like so much thought has been given to all 0:31:35.080 --> 0:31:38.640 the little horrible details of Hell, and I wonder, like 0:31:38.720 --> 0:31:43.040 what what that satisfies? Like, couldn't you just be like, Okay, 0:31:43.080 --> 0:31:45.160 we all believe that there's a hell and it's a 0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:48.200 horrible place as bad as you can imagine. Just go 0:31:48.320 --> 0:31:51.280 with that. What what was the purpose of going into 0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:54.360 all this detail? I think this I think the specificity 0:31:54.400 --> 0:31:58.440 if if Hell and the and sins on Earth are 0:31:58.480 --> 0:32:01.280 to be punished in the afterlife. To me, it would 0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:04.720 make sense that there would be a great specificity put 0:32:04.760 --> 0:32:10.200 forward so people know exactly how bad it is, uh, 0:32:10.240 --> 0:32:14.000 in order to inform their deeds on earth. Like it's 0:32:14.040 --> 0:32:16.160 not just hey, it's a bad place. You don't want 0:32:16.160 --> 0:32:18.120 to go there. It's like it's a place where your 0:32:18.120 --> 0:32:21.400 skin will melt off and you will be you know, 0:32:21.440 --> 0:32:25.400 you'll have to push this fireball around for eternity or whatever. 0:32:25.600 --> 0:32:27.920 You know. Yeah, and then person, it's like fireball. That 0:32:27.960 --> 0:32:31.400 sounds terrible, Like I was okay with with this thing, 0:32:31.480 --> 0:32:34.240 but maybe I should get a better person. I guess 0:32:34.280 --> 0:32:36.880 I won't steal this car after all. But it's all 0:32:36.920 --> 0:32:40.400 like fear stuff and that you know that existed right 0:32:40.400 --> 0:32:44.760 through my religion, you know, and we still exist today. 0:32:45.120 --> 0:32:48.120 Do you remember roughly how old you were when you're like, oh, 0:32:48.160 --> 0:32:52.280 I don't actually believe this anymore. I'm free. Uh. It's 0:32:52.360 --> 0:32:56.600 started in sort of Middish high school, but I was 0:32:56.640 --> 0:32:59.640 still sort of doing this stuff and hanging with a 0:32:59.640 --> 0:33:04.160 certain crowds. Certain crowds do you mean, like the opposite 0:33:04.160 --> 0:33:07.240 of certain crowds? No, you know, going to like young 0:33:07.280 --> 0:33:10.200 life and uh a f C A and stuff like 0:33:10.240 --> 0:33:13.280 that into early college, and the big transformation I think 0:33:13.280 --> 0:33:15.640 I mentioned this before was when I took a religion 0:33:15.640 --> 0:33:19.160 class in college, and I did learn that so much 0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:21.520 of this stuff is kind of all the same and 0:33:21.560 --> 0:33:24.960 borrowed from one another, and that is antithetical to grow 0:33:25.000 --> 0:33:27.920 up in the Christian Baptist Church, where they're like, no, no, no, 0:33:27.960 --> 0:33:31.040 this is the only truth. Everyone else is wrong. And 0:33:31.080 --> 0:33:33.440 then when I said, well, wait about what about all 0:33:33.480 --> 0:33:38.080 these other religions that are really really similar. Yeah, so 0:33:38.240 --> 0:33:40.240 I had that was a big reckoning and then it 0:33:40.280 --> 0:33:43.320 was just sort of gradual from there. Your comparative religion 0:33:43.360 --> 0:33:50.520 class was taught by Professor Lewis Cipher. Oh man, he 0:33:50.560 --> 0:33:52.440 had a he had a heck of a ponytail. I 0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:57.120 just been out Cipher. I thought that was really clever 0:33:57.480 --> 0:34:00.200 back when I saw that movie. Yeah, and looking back, 0:34:00.280 --> 0:34:03.240 it's pretty dumb, wouldn't it, angel Hart, Yeah, I mean, 0:34:03.280 --> 0:34:05.840 good enough movie, very much of its time. But I 0:34:05.840 --> 0:34:09.960 remember thinking that Louis Cipher thing was like, whoa, right, right, 0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:13.880 there's a restaurant I think in like d C. Maybe 0:34:14.040 --> 0:34:17.960 Louis Cipher's yes, And I'm like, that's that's an unusual 0:34:18.080 --> 0:34:22.319 choice to base your restaurant franchise on Satan. You know, 0:34:22.800 --> 0:34:26.280 we love it. Should we take another break? Yeah, let's 0:34:26.480 --> 0:34:53.759 all right, more judgment and punishment coming up right after this. Okay, Chuck, 0:34:53.760 --> 0:34:57.400 you promised judgment, you promised punishment. Let's let's lay it 0:34:57.480 --> 0:35:02.120 on us. Well, I mean, you know, this is like 0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:04.520 you mentioned earlier in the Old Testament, like God directly 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:07.880 punished people, you could be smited or blinded or whatever. 0:35:08.680 --> 0:35:10.920 And the New Testament is when things got a little 0:35:10.920 --> 0:35:14.680 more organized, and it was literally like here's the sections 0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:16.680 of hell. If you did this, you go here. If 0:35:16.719 --> 0:35:19.600 you did this on Earth, you go there. Um. And 0:35:19.640 --> 0:35:24.160 a lot of this is informed by writers um and 0:35:24.160 --> 0:35:27.920 and not even like biblical scholars, like people like Plato 0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:30.719 um And a lot of these stories again are really 0:35:30.760 --> 0:35:34.520 really similar. There's a story from Plato's Republic where a 0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:38.960 man named Er e Er goes into a coma, journeys 0:35:39.000 --> 0:35:42.320 through the underworld and then wakes up and then tells 0:35:42.360 --> 0:35:45.480 everyone what happened down there. And this has a lot 0:35:45.520 --> 0:35:49.520 of reward and punishment included in a really organized system. 0:35:49.560 --> 0:35:51.799 And there are a lot of stories really similar to 0:35:51.880 --> 0:35:55.680 that um throughout time that you know, I don't know 0:35:55.680 --> 0:35:58.680 if they were based on Plato or or the Republic 0:35:58.760 --> 0:36:02.640 or just like we've been talking about, sort of overlapping incestuous. 0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:05.120 I think you can make the case that they were 0:36:05.200 --> 0:36:08.680 based on Plato because Plato he wasn't the first to 0:36:08.719 --> 0:36:11.759 come up with the idea of the immortal soul. And UM, 0:36:11.840 --> 0:36:15.440 they're they're being like judgment and torment, you know, potentially 0:36:15.480 --> 0:36:19.200 afterward if not reward UM. But he really kind of 0:36:20.400 --> 0:36:23.800 um boosted it. I guess he signaled boosted the idea 0:36:23.840 --> 0:36:27.480 of an eternal soul impossible damn nation UM. And he 0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:36.120 directly influenced uh St Augustin and Augustine. Uh definitely influenced 0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:39.160 some of these later guys like drip Helm and tundale 0:36:39.719 --> 0:36:43.960 Um and their idea of how but Augustine was influenced 0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:48.240 by by Plato and Augustine had the other distinction along 0:36:48.719 --> 0:36:52.439 with Um. I think Augustine and St. Gregory were really 0:36:52.520 --> 0:36:55.560 kind of big time into that eternal damn nation idea. 0:36:55.960 --> 0:36:59.240 But Augustine also was the one who basically said, this 0:36:59.320 --> 0:37:02.240 is orth that I see, this is the correct interpretation 0:37:02.320 --> 0:37:05.879 of the scripture. If you don't believe it, we we 0:37:06.040 --> 0:37:10.160 are fine with inflicting violence upon you, that same tradition 0:37:10.239 --> 0:37:12.160 of what you were saying, where this is the only 0:37:12.160 --> 0:37:15.080 truth in anybody who believes anything else is wrong. That 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:18.399 finds its source at the very least, it finds its 0:37:18.400 --> 0:37:24.240 early popularity from St. Augustine. So this idea of uh, 0:37:24.360 --> 0:37:27.840 eternal damnation and if you don't believe in that, you're wrong, 0:37:28.239 --> 0:37:30.560 that kind of finds its its place in the early 0:37:30.640 --> 0:37:34.000 Christian Church, and I think the fifth century. And so 0:37:34.239 --> 0:37:36.600 you do have these guys who came later, like drip 0:37:36.640 --> 0:37:39.360 Helm and Tundale, who had nothing to do with scripture, 0:37:39.600 --> 0:37:42.879 but their their experiences where basically they died and came 0:37:42.880 --> 0:37:44.160 back to the life and said, there's a hell and 0:37:44.200 --> 0:37:48.640 it's awful. Really kind of informed our idea of what 0:37:48.760 --> 0:37:51.239 hell is like. And it seems to be based a 0:37:51.280 --> 0:37:54.719 lot on this ide these ideas by Augustine, who got 0:37:54.760 --> 0:37:57.280 his ideas from Plato, who got his ideas from God 0:37:57.280 --> 0:38:01.640 knows who. God does know who. Uh. If you really 0:38:01.640 --> 0:38:04.200 want to drill down though to um where we get 0:38:04.400 --> 0:38:06.400 many many of our ideas of what we think of 0:38:06.440 --> 0:38:09.440 as hell is Dante, of course, who we mentioned earlier. 0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:14.480 Um I did not even know Dante's last name until uh, 0:38:14.560 --> 0:38:17.680 until we researched this. But it's and there's gonna be 0:38:17.680 --> 0:38:23.680 some great Italian coming up. Everyone but Dante Algieri in 0:38:23.840 --> 0:38:29.560 his Divine Comedy and specifically Um Inferno. Dante's Inferno is 0:38:30.200 --> 0:38:33.040 is really um really where we get a lot of 0:38:33.080 --> 0:38:36.680 what we think of as hell today comes from Inferno 0:38:36.760 --> 0:38:39.879 as far as and people even say without even knowing, 0:38:39.960 --> 0:38:42.640 like the eighth circle of Hell and stuff like that. 0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:45.279 Like I've been guilty of saying that my whole life 0:38:45.280 --> 0:38:47.600 and not really understanding what the heck that even meant. 0:38:48.280 --> 0:38:52.040 But what's interesting, too, is so Dante wrote the the Inferno, well, 0:38:52.040 --> 0:38:56.600 he wrote the Divine Comedy UM in the early thirteen hundreds. 0:38:56.680 --> 0:39:01.120 I guess it took him fifteen years um. And so 0:39:01.160 --> 0:39:03.640 this is the undreds, and he writes about these nine 0:39:03.680 --> 0:39:06.719 circles of Hell, the nine concentric circles of Hell, like 0:39:06.800 --> 0:39:10.160 that is a really ancient concept, even though he divided 0:39:10.200 --> 0:39:14.000 it and like really um enunciated all of the different 0:39:14.000 --> 0:39:18.200 distinctions in a really popular way. Um. Like that that's 0:39:18.320 --> 0:39:21.880 really old. Like think of that Naraka, there's eight hot 0:39:22.200 --> 0:39:25.600 hot hells, there's eight cold hells. There's like this idea 0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:28.600 of different stages, Like the minds even had this idea 0:39:28.680 --> 0:39:31.439 where you progress through these different stages up the tree 0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:35.799 of life from that that dark underworld. Um, that's a 0:39:35.840 --> 0:39:38.319 really ancient idea. But yeah, Dante was definitely the one 0:39:38.960 --> 0:39:41.480 who you would credit with this, you know, coming up 0:39:41.480 --> 0:39:43.879 with it, even though it's totally wrong. Yeah, And it's 0:39:43.920 --> 0:39:47.360 also important to remember when Dante wrote this stuff, it 0:39:47.440 --> 0:39:49.680 was in it was the last fifteen years of his life, 0:39:49.760 --> 0:39:52.960 and this was after he battled the pope and the 0:39:53.000 --> 0:39:56.239 Catholic Church and was exiled from Florence. So a lot 0:39:56.280 --> 0:40:00.279 of this stuff is just reeks of sort of having 0:40:00.280 --> 0:40:03.200 a bone to pick and like, hey, the things that 0:40:03.239 --> 0:40:06.120 happened to me, like they're going to be slotted in 0:40:06.960 --> 0:40:11.040 like and it's almost like, uh like using his own 0:40:11.040 --> 0:40:14.719 experience to to create the symbolism of like, this is 0:40:14.760 --> 0:40:17.000 what happened to me, and that makes you the worst 0:40:17.000 --> 0:40:19.759 person if you did these things exactly Like I'm going 0:40:19.840 --> 0:40:23.480 to put you in hell in my book. And I'm 0:40:23.520 --> 0:40:25.399 sure some of those people were alive and like, hey, man, 0:40:25.480 --> 0:40:28.359 don't don't put me in hell, Like this is not 0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:30.319 you can't do that, And he's like, I just did 0:40:32.800 --> 0:40:36.319 you know here's a nice cube. Have fun. So he 0:40:36.560 --> 0:40:39.080 um Dante. One of his big things and that I 0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:43.040 think made his work so famous too, was he um 0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:47.200 really got into contraposso you want to take that? No, 0:40:47.360 --> 0:40:50.640 that was great, Um. I didn't even pinch my fingers 0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:54.160 and thumb together. Uh. And contraposso is basically this this 0:40:54.480 --> 0:40:57.319 poetic eye for an eye where you know if you 0:40:57.719 --> 0:40:59.480 if you do this on earth, if you sin in 0:40:59.520 --> 0:41:02.640 this way, your punishment is going to be some poetic 0:41:02.800 --> 0:41:06.879 justice um in the afterlife. And that was the whole 0:41:06.920 --> 0:41:10.080 point of of Hell as far as Dante was concerned. 0:41:10.080 --> 0:41:13.680 It was where God got justice for things that were 0:41:13.719 --> 0:41:18.120 done wrong here on earth. And apparently it said as much. 0:41:18.160 --> 0:41:22.840 Over the gate of Hell Um it said you to 0:41:23.080 --> 0:41:27.720 ze most say il mio alto fatore, which means justice 0:41:27.800 --> 0:41:32.040 moved my high maker, Um, which is basically saying like, 0:41:32.520 --> 0:41:35.000 this is what this place is for, is to get justice. 0:41:35.320 --> 0:41:37.960 And there's also a very famous um inscription over the 0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:40.600 gates of Hell abandoned all hope he who interheed, and 0:41:40.640 --> 0:41:43.400 that came from Uh Dante's Inferno as well. How is 0:41:43.400 --> 0:41:46.960 that what that's from? Mm hmmm. That's good stuff. It 0:41:47.080 --> 0:41:50.319 really is It was also used to great effect in 0:41:50.360 --> 0:41:57.480 Boondocks Saints So Dante and Virgil are um. Before they 0:41:57.520 --> 0:42:00.200 even go to Hell, they have to cross the over 0:42:00.719 --> 0:42:05.440 at Huron and deal with Sharon the boatman, which is 0:42:06.200 --> 0:42:08.520 you know, I think this has been used a million 0:42:08.560 --> 0:42:12.040 times too in literature and pop culture, like this, this 0:42:12.440 --> 0:42:15.399 boat person that has to transport someone across this river 0:42:15.640 --> 0:42:18.239 to a different place. Sometimes you have to pass a 0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:24.520 test um, you know, like Monty Python style basically. And 0:42:24.520 --> 0:42:26.239 that's so weird. Right as I said that, I just 0:42:26.239 --> 0:42:30.520 looked up to our Aaron Cooper special Monty Python photoshop 0:42:30.560 --> 0:42:34.440 poster where I'm King Arthur and you are one of 0:42:34.440 --> 0:42:37.799 the nights. It's Stricklin is in there too, Yeah, isn't 0:42:37.800 --> 0:42:40.680 he like the page with the coconuts? Yeah? And there 0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:43.560 he else is over there. Now I'm looking at a 0:42:43.560 --> 0:42:48.960 picture of me face punching George Lucas. You haven't been 0:42:49.000 --> 0:42:51.399 in this room in a while, have you? No? No, 0:42:51.440 --> 0:42:53.600 But I remember it pretty well. It's burned in your 0:42:53.640 --> 0:42:58.120 brain after twelve years. Uh So where was I You 0:42:58.160 --> 0:43:01.839 were talking about the river sticks and or Archer Honor, 0:43:02.000 --> 0:43:05.040 and which is might as well be the River sticks? Right, right? 0:43:05.080 --> 0:43:07.720 But it is. It's like straight up taken from the Greeks, 0:43:07.840 --> 0:43:12.200 and yet this devout Christian Dante is is writing about 0:43:12.239 --> 0:43:14.520 it like this the Christian Hell, And it really kind 0:43:14.520 --> 0:43:17.000 of goes to to show you just how much literary 0:43:17.120 --> 0:43:20.240 license he took with this well and how much um 0:43:20.280 --> 0:43:23.680 he borrowed from the Greeks, because like you, you would 0:43:23.680 --> 0:43:26.839 think this is probably the Christian stance on on hell, 0:43:27.120 --> 0:43:31.680 and it's not um. Like, for instance, Dante sees uh 0:43:32.120 --> 0:43:36.000 thinks that it's a virtue if you're have moderation in 0:43:36.040 --> 0:43:39.360 your life, like you don't wanna be too spindy and greedy, 0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:41.920 also don't want to be too miserly, But that's not 0:43:42.000 --> 0:43:43.800 a Christian thing at all, Like that's not in the 0:43:43.920 --> 0:43:46.200 Tin Commandments. It's not one of the seven Deadly sins 0:43:46.280 --> 0:43:49.759 or anything like that. No, there's gluttony, but miserly nous 0:43:49.880 --> 0:43:53.600 is not in there, right, Yeah, So he's definitely just 0:43:53.640 --> 0:43:57.239 saying this is this is what I Dante think. But 0:43:57.960 --> 0:44:00.520 I guess it just hit a nerve because I mean, like, 0:44:00.520 --> 0:44:02.480 like we were saying at the outset like this is 0:44:03.120 --> 0:44:05.400 this is just this is basically what people think of 0:44:05.400 --> 0:44:07.319 when they think of hell. These days if not the 0:44:07.360 --> 0:44:09.480 fire and the red pitchfork and all that. All right, 0:44:09.520 --> 0:44:15.640 So first circle limbo, not purgatory like we mentioned. Uh, 0:44:15.640 --> 0:44:18.960 this is where you can like it's it's not terrible, 0:44:19.480 --> 0:44:22.319 but it is hell and it's sort of unfair like 0:44:22.360 --> 0:44:25.480 you said, Uh, you know, if you're not like, you 0:44:25.480 --> 0:44:27.319 could just be born before Christ and you can be 0:44:27.320 --> 0:44:32.279 in limbo, right like Aristotle's there. Aristotle was great and 0:44:32.360 --> 0:44:35.320 virtuous and one of the greatest thinkers the world's ever produced. 0:44:35.440 --> 0:44:38.920 Yet he's stuck in limbo because he existed before Christ 0:44:38.920 --> 0:44:43.160 so couldn't possibly be saved. So what's next? Lust is next? 0:44:43.719 --> 0:44:46.640 And this is pretty interesting too in that, um, you know, 0:44:46.760 --> 0:44:50.480 some other people who had seen visions of hell, like 0:44:50.520 --> 0:44:53.800 the the you know, medieval nights we talked about earlier, 0:44:54.120 --> 0:44:58.160 they're talking about like you know, oh yeah, they they 0:44:58.239 --> 0:45:00.960 nail your sack to a board with rusty nails, are 0:45:01.000 --> 0:45:04.120 just really juvenile stuff. Dante goes a lot more poetic, 0:45:04.200 --> 0:45:08.360 and that his idea of lust is is their punishment 0:45:08.400 --> 0:45:11.200 for lust is you know, lovers are blown about by 0:45:11.200 --> 0:45:13.920 the wind so that they can never quite get together 0:45:14.360 --> 0:45:17.120 and there's always you know, kept just just out of 0:45:17.120 --> 0:45:19.480 each other's reach, which is you know, it's it's a 0:45:19.600 --> 0:45:22.239 lot more poetic than than the other one. Did you say, 0:45:22.360 --> 0:45:29.840 nail your sack to a board, Yeah, like your backpack? Yes, okay, okay, 0:45:29.840 --> 0:45:33.960 all right. The third circle is gluttony. Uh. Here you're 0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:37.839 stuck in the mud and it's you're being pummeled by 0:45:37.880 --> 0:45:42.080 hail and freezing rain. And um, this is where he 0:45:42.120 --> 0:45:43.919 got a little bit of his bone to pick out 0:45:44.040 --> 0:45:48.279 on Florence and what a terrible place that was. Um. 0:45:48.320 --> 0:45:51.560 The fourth circle is where we get into the greed 0:45:51.600 --> 0:45:56.560 and the miserly. Um. Basically, um, it's the circle of moderation, like, 0:45:56.680 --> 0:45:59.359 don't go too far in either direction. Yeah, And he 0:45:59.400 --> 0:46:01.799 really kind of plays into that symmetry as well, where 0:46:01.840 --> 0:46:04.440 on the one side are the people who are super 0:46:04.440 --> 0:46:07.840 gluttonous and like they spend just tons of money, and 0:46:07.880 --> 0:46:09.440 then on the other side there are the people who 0:46:09.440 --> 0:46:12.040 are super stingy and hoard their money. They're really two 0:46:12.040 --> 0:46:15.080 sides of the same coin. I think Dante is correct 0:46:15.080 --> 0:46:18.160 in that sense, and so they're both in that same 0:46:18.200 --> 0:46:22.319 circle of hell, but on opposite sides of the circle. 0:46:21.400 --> 0:46:28.800 The number five is that, Yeah, that's that's where those 0:46:28.840 --> 0:46:33.080 of us who are um who get road rage will 0:46:33.120 --> 0:46:35.799 be potentually that's where I'm gonna be Unford, all right, 0:46:35.800 --> 0:46:38.000 and you're in the river sticks in that case. Yeah, 0:46:38.000 --> 0:46:40.279 I just losh it around, being like I'm so married 0:46:40.320 --> 0:46:44.799 about everything. Uh, circle number six everyone. It feels like 0:46:44.840 --> 0:46:47.400 a Dave Letterman Top ten does all of a sudden. 0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:51.919 These are heretics, These are pagans, these are atheists. These 0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:54.000 are people who, while they were on Earth, were like, Hey, 0:46:54.200 --> 0:46:55.799 I'm just gonna have a good time while i'm here. 0:46:56.120 --> 0:46:59.960 I'm not worried about salvation. Yeah, and Epicurious in particular, 0:47:00.040 --> 0:47:03.040 Ler's there and I was like, why Epicurious? And apparently 0:47:03.600 --> 0:47:06.920 he very much and his followers did not believe in 0:47:06.920 --> 0:47:09.480 any kind of afterlife, which is why they're like, make 0:47:09.520 --> 0:47:11.680 the most of your time here on earth. I guess 0:47:11.680 --> 0:47:16.120 that's where I am. Yeah. Um. It's basically another way 0:47:16.120 --> 0:47:18.640 to interpret that is that these were people who's so 0:47:18.960 --> 0:47:25.560 discord by injecting alternative ideas into the believers minds. All right, 0:47:25.600 --> 0:47:29.560 well maybe I'm not there then, um no. Like also, 0:47:29.640 --> 0:47:31.600 if you if you don't believe in an afterlife and 0:47:31.600 --> 0:47:33.680 you're enjoying your time here on earth, you go there 0:47:33.680 --> 0:47:36.680 either way you're scrowgy. Either way, well, at least we'll 0:47:36.719 --> 0:47:39.560 be there together. Um. We also, I don't think we 0:47:39.600 --> 0:47:42.839 mentioned that Virgil, the poet virgil Um is the one 0:47:42.880 --> 0:47:47.239 who's guiding Dante around through these these things, and I 0:47:47.280 --> 0:47:51.640 guess it's kind of acting is like his um uh 0:47:51.760 --> 0:47:54.120 oh what is the name of from New York Dolls 0:47:54.160 --> 0:47:59.680 and scrooged buster point X. He's acting as Dante's buster 0:47:59.760 --> 0:48:03.759 point decks um, and so virtual's escorting him around. They 0:48:03.800 --> 0:48:08.320 get to the seventh circle of hell Um, which contains 0:48:08.440 --> 0:48:12.759 the city of dis which dis or is this in 0:48:12.800 --> 0:48:20.480 the sixth I think it's in the sixth Yeah comes 0:48:20.520 --> 0:48:23.520 after Yeah, So the and so a lot of a 0:48:23.520 --> 0:48:26.880 lot of people, um kind of chop up these circles 0:48:26.880 --> 0:48:29.600 of hell into the first through third, the second through 0:48:29.600 --> 0:48:32.280 the sixth, and the seventh through the ninth. And apparently 0:48:32.400 --> 0:48:36.560 Dante considered basically the first through the six is all 0:48:36.760 --> 0:48:40.400 kind of generally in the same category, which was they 0:48:40.400 --> 0:48:45.000 were sins of incontinence where people just couldn't resist the 0:48:45.120 --> 0:48:49.680 earthly temptations. They had a weakness of will. They're you know, 0:48:49.719 --> 0:48:52.440 they're being tormented because they made these choices. But Also 0:48:52.760 --> 0:48:56.920 this is really it's it's forgivable stuff. Seventh through nine 0:48:57.040 --> 0:49:00.920 is where who he considers the the gen new in centers, 0:49:01.320 --> 0:49:06.120 the evil people reside. Yeah, this is where arsonists and murderers. 0:49:06.840 --> 0:49:10.120 Um that he actually framed, you know, suicide as one 0:49:10.160 --> 0:49:14.840 of these Uh in that seventh circle, Um, the eighth circle, 0:49:15.080 --> 0:49:17.760 and you know this is it gets a little confusing 0:49:17.800 --> 0:49:22.399 because in their smaller pockets within these circles. Uh. And again, 0:49:22.440 --> 0:49:25.440 if you're a scholar of Dante, just I'm so so sorry, 0:49:25.640 --> 0:49:30.120 so sorry. Yeah, hopefully they turned this. But the eighth 0:49:30.120 --> 0:49:35.480 circle is for ten kinds of fraud. And then the 0:49:35.600 --> 0:49:39.239 ninth circle is finally where Satan is and this is 0:49:39.320 --> 0:49:43.600 for for Satan and as the lead trader basically um, 0:49:43.680 --> 0:49:48.200 not trader but trade or which is you know, this 0:49:48.280 --> 0:49:50.560 is a big one for me. I mean as a 0:49:50.640 --> 0:49:56.520 Pisces Uh Sabbath fan of Black Sabbath like loyalty and 0:49:56.800 --> 0:49:59.759 um is very important. Broken trust is to me like 0:50:00.040 --> 0:50:02.800 of the worst things someone can do. And so I 0:50:02.880 --> 0:50:05.840 didn't realize that was picy in in nature. Yeah, pretty 0:50:05.880 --> 0:50:11.160 pice in very loyal very friendships and relationships are sort 0:50:11.200 --> 0:50:14.880 of the utmost importance to be betrayed is like just 0:50:14.960 --> 0:50:17.719 kind of the worst thing you can do. So this 0:50:17.800 --> 0:50:21.000 is this would be your your you'd really enjoy this. Yeah, 0:50:21.040 --> 0:50:23.759 I mean, I guess that's my eighth circle. Um. But 0:50:23.840 --> 0:50:27.200 it's interesting in that Satan, the ultimate trader to God, 0:50:28.040 --> 0:50:31.680 is stuck there but could get out. Um. In theory, 0:50:32.320 --> 0:50:36.479 if Satan just realized that, like, hey, I'm beneath God 0:50:36.600 --> 0:50:39.920 and I can recognize God as being above me and 0:50:39.960 --> 0:50:44.600 I am not God's equal. Um. And it's a frozen 0:50:45.080 --> 0:50:47.080 it gets a little confusing, but it's a frozen lake. 0:50:47.239 --> 0:50:49.160 It's a little antithetical to what we think about is 0:50:49.200 --> 0:50:53.319 Satan is being fiery, because what happens is the lake 0:50:53.360 --> 0:50:56.560 with thaw and free Satan. If he wasn't flapping his 0:50:56.760 --> 0:50:59.439 big bat wings to try and fly up to God 0:50:59.800 --> 0:51:02.960 to proof he's as equal, but instead of Satan's wings, 0:51:03.320 --> 0:51:05.359 I guess throwing forth like fire what you would think 0:51:05.760 --> 0:51:09.120 and actually I guess is icy and it just keeps 0:51:09.120 --> 0:51:12.120 that like frozen. Right. But if he would just yeah, 0:51:12.160 --> 0:51:14.560 if he'd just give up, then he'd stopped beating his 0:51:14.640 --> 0:51:17.080 wings and then it wouldn't all right, yeah, and then 0:51:17.080 --> 0:51:19.200 he would be free. But then he just wouldn't be 0:51:19.239 --> 0:51:21.160 Satan anymore. You know what I mean, to be a 0:51:21.160 --> 0:51:23.759 broken version of Satan, and who wants that? Right then 0:51:23.800 --> 0:51:29.120 we wouldn't have Tommy Davis Junior TV pilot. Yeah, right, exactly. So, 0:51:30.040 --> 0:51:33.279 I mean, it's not like our idea of Hell just 0:51:33.520 --> 0:51:35.440 ended at Dante. But I was like, yep, that's it. 0:51:35.520 --> 0:51:37.520 Don't need to add to it, Like plenty of people 0:51:37.600 --> 0:51:40.759 have over time. One of the coolest I've seen I 0:51:40.800 --> 0:51:45.319 cannot remember what it was, but I suspect that was 0:51:45.360 --> 0:51:52.000 an aon flux Um cartoon on Remember Liquids on MTV. 0:51:53.160 --> 0:51:56.040 I think somehow aon flux ended up in Hell and 0:51:56.120 --> 0:51:59.839 like this, the the weird conception of it was just 0:52:00.080 --> 0:52:04.280 so unsettling. Everything was just so off. It was really 0:52:04.320 --> 0:52:06.200 well done, and I'll have to go, like see if 0:52:06.200 --> 0:52:08.440 I can find it. All I could find was that 0:52:08.560 --> 0:52:11.080 aon Flex the movie sucked. That's all you can find 0:52:11.080 --> 0:52:13.520 when you search a on Flex in Hell right now. 0:52:14.480 --> 0:52:16.480 But um, I really want to find that again. If 0:52:16.480 --> 0:52:18.399 I do, I'll have to tweet it out. Yeah. I mean, 0:52:18.640 --> 0:52:21.759 you could do a whole second podcast episode on popular 0:52:21.880 --> 0:52:25.319 versions of Hell and pop culture and movies and TV 0:52:25.480 --> 0:52:30.560 and literature. Paintings. Serronamous Bosh is a great example. Um. 0:52:30.600 --> 0:52:33.320 I love those paintings. This was a couple of centuries 0:52:33.360 --> 0:52:36.000 after Inferno. But these are the ones that look like 0:52:36.040 --> 0:52:39.920 sort of in default album covers. Um. They're great, very 0:52:39.920 --> 0:52:44.360 cool stuff. Uh. And you know, like I said, there's 0:52:44.400 --> 0:52:48.640 scores of versions of Hell, from Clive Barker to Marvel 0:52:48.719 --> 0:52:53.000 Comics Too, to Sammy Davis Jr. And The Good Place. 0:52:53.560 --> 0:52:55.880 They're all over the place. So it's definitely something that's like, 0:52:56.440 --> 0:53:01.279 I don't know, it's just weirdly captured pop cultures imagination, 0:53:01.400 --> 0:53:03.680 just as much as it did thousands of years ago 0:53:03.680 --> 0:53:07.080 with religion. You know, one of the greatest, one of 0:53:07.120 --> 0:53:10.399 the other great um conceptions of the afterlife, not necessarily hell, 0:53:10.480 --> 0:53:13.680 but hell ish um is found in this. I think 0:53:13.680 --> 0:53:15.919 I've mentioned it before a Joyce Carol Oates short story 0:53:15.960 --> 0:53:19.839 called night Side, where there's this um seance and like 0:53:20.160 --> 0:53:23.279 the spirits that are contacted are like all freaked out 0:53:23.800 --> 0:53:26.879 because there's no it's all just chaos. Nobody. I think 0:53:26.880 --> 0:53:29.440 they keep saying, like no one's in charge and like 0:53:29.600 --> 0:53:32.440 everything is just out of order. Um. And it's a 0:53:32.560 --> 0:53:36.440 really like unsettling read like Joyce Killer Oates is so 0:53:36.480 --> 0:53:39.640 good with horror, but that that particular one is super disturbing. 0:53:40.200 --> 0:53:42.719 I highly recommend everybody reading it. Yeah, and if you 0:53:42.719 --> 0:53:44.720 want to see a fun take on the afterlife, watch 0:53:45.600 --> 0:53:48.720 the great Albert Brooks movie Defending Your Life. Oh my god, 0:53:48.840 --> 0:53:50.680 that is such a great movie. One of the all 0:53:50.719 --> 0:53:54.799 time great sleeper films ever, wonderful, so good. Yeah, that's 0:53:54.800 --> 0:53:57.120 a good that's a treat right there. Good for you, 0:53:57.440 --> 0:54:00.759 the great Albert Brooks. Yeah. Well, since Chuck can't stop 0:54:00.760 --> 0:54:03.560 talking about Albert Brooks, I think that means it's time 0:54:03.600 --> 0:54:08.960 for listener. Ma'm fun. Fact a lot of people know this. 0:54:09.080 --> 0:54:14.640 Albert Brooks born Albert Einstein. No, yes, no, yes, brother 0:54:14.719 --> 0:54:18.520 of super Dave Osborne. I guess I had known that, 0:54:18.600 --> 0:54:21.359 but only when Super Dave died recently, right, uh, yeah, 0:54:21.440 --> 0:54:26.040 he did die. Their birth name was Einstein. I think 0:54:25.600 --> 0:54:30.080 I think Super Dave Osborne was super Dave Einstein. No, 0:54:30.360 --> 0:54:35.359 I think it was Bob Einstein. And I don't know. 0:54:35.640 --> 0:54:38.840 I think so, I don't know, but that he's like 0:54:38.880 --> 0:54:42.319 from the Larry Bud Melman era of Letterman and yeah, 0:54:43.360 --> 0:54:46.040 good stuff. Oh yeah, So if you want to know 0:54:46.080 --> 0:54:49.440 more about Hell, just start sending your a off and 0:54:49.520 --> 0:54:52.239 you'll find out about it soon enough. And like I said, 0:54:52.239 --> 0:54:54.279 since Chuck keeps talking about Albert Brooks, it is time 0:54:54.280 --> 0:54:56.480 for a listener. Man. Yeah, I'm gonna call this one 0:54:56.520 --> 0:55:00.680 of our great senior listeners. Uh. And this this lady 0:55:00.760 --> 0:55:04.120 is from Australia. Hello, guys. I'm an eighty year old 0:55:04.120 --> 0:55:08.239 woman in aged care. My life was very mundane and 0:55:08.360 --> 0:55:12.120 quite boring. I finally bought a mobility scooter now uh 0:55:12.120 --> 0:55:14.280 and I could get out and ride the wonderful pathways 0:55:14.280 --> 0:55:16.839 and visit the shops. My son Robert, thought I needed 0:55:16.880 --> 0:55:19.760 more interest, so he hooked my phone up to Josh 0:55:19.760 --> 0:55:24.600 and Chuck podcasts. Wow, all capitals. How I love riding 0:55:24.640 --> 0:55:27.240 around on my scooter and listening to your wonderful humor 0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:32.239 and mostly interesting things in quotes. I love it. So 0:55:32.560 --> 0:55:35.799 perhaps she even has the book. I have learned so 0:55:35.880 --> 0:55:41.640 much about everything, love Elvis, visiting Nixon for a NARC, Badge, 0:55:41.760 --> 0:55:47.080 Building Boulder, Damn, Francis Perkins, etcetera. Just everything. Guys, keep 0:55:47.160 --> 0:55:52.799 up the good work. Cheers from Glenda on the Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia. 0:55:53.480 --> 0:55:56.879 Very nice. That was Glenda write. Yeah, I just love 0:55:56.920 --> 0:55:59.719 hearing from Glinda. She's great. Thank you, Glenda. Yeah, I 0:55:59.760 --> 0:56:01.600 think Glenda should write in every once in a while. 0:56:01.640 --> 0:56:03.960 I was just say hi and talk about her favorite 0:56:04.239 --> 0:56:07.040 recent episode. I would love What do you think, Glenda, 0:56:07.120 --> 0:56:10.040 if you're listening, please do that and what was her son? 0:56:10.200 --> 0:56:15.480 Richard Robert Robert Robert. Thank you for turning your mom 0:56:15.480 --> 0:56:19.600 onto stuff you should Know. Um, well, if you wanna 0:56:20.160 --> 0:56:22.960 talk about how you turn somebody onto stuff you should know, 0:56:23.200 --> 0:56:25.480 we would love to hear about that. That's great. You 0:56:25.520 --> 0:56:28.000 can write us in an email, wrap it up, spank 0:56:28.040 --> 0:56:30.440 it on the bottom, and send it off to Stuff 0:56:30.520 --> 0:56:37.160 Podcasts at iHeart radio dot com. 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