1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: There's Charles w St. Chuck Bryant uh, and st. Jerome 4 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: Rowland is out there as well. I'm not a staying 5 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: I'm sinner. Uh. And this is stuff you should know. 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: The first real episode of the New Year, it is Chuck. 7 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: It's uh beyond the future now, It's that's so futuristic, 8 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: no one ever even used it in a sci fi book. 9 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: That's right. We we had our are what we like 10 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: to call our elementary school Christmas break, which means it's 11 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: about three and a half weeks long. We worked hard 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: for that. We do, so you better treat us, right. 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: That's that's right. How was your holiday? Good? It was good. 14 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: I've I finally got to just kind of disconnect and 15 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: decouple and just relax. And it was not Actually I 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: went I went the entire time without cracking my computer open. 17 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: I was really proud of that. Yeah, I couldn't believe it. 18 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: Like I did stuff on my phone that I needed to, 19 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: but I just there was a ban on opening my laptops, 20 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: even just for funzies. Yeah, no, poin didn't. I didn't 21 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: want to write. I didn't want to see uh computer 22 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: or a keyboard for a little while, and I was 23 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: able to do it. Yeah, that I just did. The 24 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: porn was all just like I just made drawings myself, right, 25 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: flip books. I uh loved doing things in my laptop. 26 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: But I was proud of myself for not looking at 27 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: any work emails. I did a little bit at first, because, 28 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: as you know, some buttoning up into the year stuff. 29 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 1: But then I was just like, you know what, and 30 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: you know what I put as my I mean, you've 31 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: seen my occasional auto reply, which is, uh, if it's 32 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: an emergency, please realize that there are no podcast emergency, 33 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: which is sort of true. It's I think true. Actually. 34 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: And you got your slide whistle. I did. I don't 35 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 1: have it with me right now or else. I dang, 36 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: we got a debut the slide whistle later because I 37 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: got to hear that thing. Yes, we do, thank you 38 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: for that. Did you get your gift from me? I did? Okay, good. 39 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: I thought that that you would find that wildly appropriate 40 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: and it helped out our buddy too. That's right. Um. 41 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: And so we're just gonna wade into some easy, easy 42 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: waters here with hell. Hell. This is tough. Man. I 43 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: was like, who's dumb idea was this? And I realized 44 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: it was mine? Uh so I never forgot. Yeah, the 45 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: c I a here is is that. I mean, people 46 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: like I think the Grabster helped us put this together. 47 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: He said, people make their entire careers out of just 48 00:02:54,760 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: Dante's Inferno, much less concepts of Hell. And uh it 49 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: is very broad and dense and confusing, and so this 50 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: is sort of a just a stuff you shouldn't know 51 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: stab at it. Yeah, and let me just add to 52 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: that that we are in no way, shape or form 53 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: biblical scholars, theologians. We're gonna get a lot of stuff wrong. 54 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: We're probably gonna walk right past interpretations they're popular and 55 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: widely accepted. We were like, this is this is just 56 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: us talking about hell, So just relax. We already know 57 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: we're going to hell, so there's nothing you can do 58 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: to us that's any worse. Um, So just calm down 59 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:33,520 Speaker 1: and enjoy the episode. How about that? Enjoy this episode 60 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: about eternal conscious torment. Yeah, and if you are a 61 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: scholar of Dante, just don't even listen. Yeah, you will 62 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: literally puke into your cupped hands while you're listening to 63 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: this on the train because you're that polite. That's right, 64 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: go back and listen to the Science of Cute again. Um. Wow, 65 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: that was that was a reference to something that doesn't 66 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: even exist yet. That's hetty. Yeah, So Chuck, I want 67 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: to talk first. I'm mentioned eternal conscious torment, and that 68 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 1: is kind of like the the broad spectrum of what 69 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: most people walking around today in the Western world, whether 70 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: they're Christian or just familiar with the Christian concept of hell, 71 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: think of hell. It's where your your soul is tormented, 72 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: beaten up, bullied, um, maybe talked about behind its back, uh, 73 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: set on fire. Um. And in this in this state, um, 74 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: there's no dying, there's no death of the soul. The 75 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: soul is immortal. So this, this pain, this torment, this 76 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: horrible nous just keeps going on forever and ever and ever. 77 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: And that is that's that comes directly from St. Augustine, 78 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: who kind of plays big into this concept of hell. 79 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: But the idea that there's an immortal soul, that it 80 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: goes somewhere after death, and that depending on how it 81 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: behaved here on earth, um, it may or may not 82 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: face eternal conscious torment. That is seriously, it's the theological 83 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: term that they used today that strikes some people, some theologians, 84 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: is wildly disproportionate to the kinds of sins we're talking 85 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: about here, Like like you over indulged in fudge brownie 86 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,799 Speaker 1: mix during your time on Earth means that you're going 87 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: to be to just suffer a literal, not never ending, infinite, 88 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: eternal torment of damnation because you over indulged in brownie mix. 89 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: That just doesn't quite jibe for some people. So there 90 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: there have been other alternatives that were posed many many 91 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: years ago, that were actually around in some cases before 92 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: eternal conscious torment came around. Um that some people are saying, like, hey, 93 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: maybe this is a better interpretation of what's actually going 94 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: on with Hell. Are you familiar with those other interpretations well? 95 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: Which ones, uh, namely universalism and annihilationism. Mm hmm. This 96 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: was that thing that I was saying, we got to 97 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: talk about these such check this out. I'm gonna let 98 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: me wow you for a second, okay, because these are 99 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: to me, the softer, gentler versions of hell. One is 100 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: that the universalism. Another terms universal salvation, and it's this 101 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: idea that there is an end, there's a there's a 102 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: finite date to the to the torment, and that you're 103 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: basically going to hell depending on how badly you sinned. 104 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,799 Speaker 1: But over time you can kind of work that sin 105 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: off and you will eventually come out the other end 106 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: saved and go to heaven. And that that happens to everybody. 107 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: Everyone is is it can possibly go to heaven through 108 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,600 Speaker 1: this idea. The other is annihilationism, which makes a lot 109 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: of sense to if you believe in this kind of stuff. That, um, 110 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: the people who are saved, the righteous, the virtuous, people 111 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: who are going to go to heaven, they go on 112 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: to heaven after they die. Everybody else just ceases to exist. 113 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 1: They're annihilated upon death. No hell, but there's no heavenly 114 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: reward for those people. I like those a lot more 115 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: than eternal conscious torment. The thing is, eternal conscious torment 116 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: is so gripping. Yeah, that it's it's like this is 117 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: this is this is just what people think of when 118 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: they think of hell. And apparently, if you're an evangelical 119 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: in particular and you believe in anything but eternal conscious torment, 120 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: you're you're you're flirting with being shunned by your peers 121 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: because you're you're going in the face of Orthodoxy. Well, yeah, 122 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's it's a lot to unpack. 123 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: I know, you grew up fairly Catholic, and I've regret 124 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: how many times I've had to say the word Baptist 125 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: on this show. I feel like there's a lot of 126 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: people taking a shot right now if this is the 127 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: stuff you should know, drinking game. But I can't not 128 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 1: mention that growing up Baptist, it's a very uh, you know, 129 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: it's a very fiery, brimstony um religion and it's um. 130 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: I very much up with the concept, this very sort 131 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: of trophy concept of heaven is this um you know, 132 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: lovely place where God lives. It's in the up there 133 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: in the clouds, and you go up and then if 134 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: you're not good, then you go down to somewhere, I 135 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,559 Speaker 1: guess in the center of the earth where the devil 136 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: lives and where Satan pokes you, and where you are 137 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: you know, there's lakes of fire and it's all very 138 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: scary and and you know, it wasn't until I got 139 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: a little bit older that I realized that these are 140 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 1: stories told to get children in line. Yeah, and not 141 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: just children, adults who go on to continue to believe 142 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: in how you know and and to subscribe to this stuff. 143 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: For sure, it's definitely a way to keep people in line. 144 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: But the concept of hell generally in the concept of souls. Uh. 145 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,719 Speaker 1: And this is probably no surprise to most um sort 146 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: of critical thinkers. But you know, the the idea of 147 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 1: being worm dirt and after you die, that's just it 148 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: is a lot to take gone as you approached that day. Yeah, 149 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: so it is really it makes a lot of sense. 150 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: I think that people from very early on started to 151 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 1: think about the concept of a soul um, a self 152 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: that lived on um. And you know, it just makes 153 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: sense that there's a quote good place in a bad place. Yeah. 154 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: But the thing is is, apparently it doesn't seem to 155 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: have necessarily been just like part and parcels. From from 156 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 1: what Ed's saying and from what I saw elsewhere in 157 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: the research, is that heaven seemed to have developed first 158 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: very early on, and then there was a real emphasis 159 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: on symmetry in the ancient and in like pre modern world, 160 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: where if you had one you had the opposite and 161 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: equal proportions. So eventually over time that kind of was 162 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: like well, if there's this really lovely place that's like 163 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 1: paradise after you die, then there has to be the 164 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: opposite of that, the antithesis of that too, And that's 165 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: where this development of hell came from. But the fact 166 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,719 Speaker 1: that hell wasn't hasn't always been around her as long 167 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: as you know, the idea of the afterlife, and then 168 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,560 Speaker 1: the idea that it wasn't ever hasn't always been this 169 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,320 Speaker 1: place where you're you were subject to the most cruel 170 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: kinds of punishments available to to the human imagination. Right. Yeah, Um, 171 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: that that's not that's not as old as as the 172 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: idea of the afterlife either. That that was really surprising 173 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,959 Speaker 1: to me. But it's it's pretty neat because it's weird. 174 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: It's almost like humanity got infected by a germ of 175 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: real meanness and in darkness that we're still living with today, 176 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: and that you could kind of trace it in in 177 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: the evolution of our idea of hell as well or 178 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: to the beginnings of Twitter. That's that's right. So, uh, 179 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: that's evil incarnate. It depends on what religions you're talking about, 180 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:58,200 Speaker 1: but virtually every religion has some sort of afterlife concept. Um. 181 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: Early judy is Um. Of course certainly does. If you 182 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: read back, um ed described something from the Sumerian underworld, 183 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: where they kind of more talk about hell as uh 184 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 1: or the afterlife I guess is just sort of boring. Uh. 185 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: And there wasn't you know, you didn't go to a 186 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: fiery place where you're tormented. Um. They talk about, you know, 187 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: being thirsty and eating dust. Certainly unpleasant. Um. But then 188 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,839 Speaker 1: this idea starts where you can be in a better 189 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: place in the afterlife according to what you've achieved on earth, 190 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: but not necessarily good deeds at first. Like if you're 191 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: really rich, then you're gonna go to a good place 192 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: because your family could afford to bury you with food 193 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: and drink and jewels and gold and stuff like that 194 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: to carry with you to the other side, and that 195 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: would put you in a much better standing. But again, 196 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: this is not like I was a good person. This 197 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: is just I died rich. So all these really valuable 198 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: things they could put underground and bury with me. Right, 199 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: But in the same way to the living could care 200 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: for you. They could. You might not be rich, but 201 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: your family might care so much about you that they 202 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: come on every Sunday whatever they called Sunday's back when 203 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: the Sumerians were running around, um and bring you like 204 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: a little food and a little beer or something like that. 205 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: And and they were sustaining you in this place where 206 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: everybody else was eating dust and dirt. But your family 207 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 1: so loved you because you've been such a good person 208 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: during your time while you were alive, that they were 209 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: coming and bringing you like bread and beer. Um. And 210 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: in that sense, also, Chuck, is really kind of poetic 211 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: because you, that person, are living on in the memories 212 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: of your family after you died, because they're coming and 213 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: keeping your memory alive by bringing you bread and beer 214 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,079 Speaker 1: and all that. And so in that way, you are 215 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: living on in this kind of immortal means as well. 216 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: But the converse of that is really disturbing, and that 217 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: if you don't inspire people to care about you afterwards, 218 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: like you really ceased to exist, like there's there's there's 219 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: no one on earth who's thinking of you, are honoring you. 220 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: And in that sense, if there is no afterlife you you, 221 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: that is annihilation. That is true oblivion. What Disney or 222 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: Pixar movie is it? I saw it recently, that has 223 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: to do it. It's brutal um like you're being erased 224 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: and until you're remembered after death, Eternal Sunshine, the Spotless Mind. 225 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: Now I know it's called inside out. Maybe no, that's 226 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,200 Speaker 1: the one about the emotions, which is equally brutal. Yeah, 227 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 1: I don't think that. I thought her. I thought the 228 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,559 Speaker 1: kids like imaginary friend was being erased or demolished. And 229 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: then was that in that movie? I think so? Yeah, 230 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: remember the elephant that was like George Clooney's friend Richard 231 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 1: has it right now? It certainly seems that, Oh, I 232 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: can't remember. And this is officially marks the first podcast 233 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: of the year where people are screaming at us, which 234 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: is coincidentally the first podcast of the year that we record. 235 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: That's right. Um, I think it's Egypt, Ancient Egypt, where 236 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: the first the first idea of like, um, this this 237 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: weird sort of afterlife, uh judgment panel sort of steps 238 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: in where you know, there are people like literally in 239 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: charge of this thing, almost like a bureaucracy, and there's 240 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: an administration and it's it sounds a little bit more 241 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: like Sammy David's JRS sitcom pilot that failed. Oh yeah, 242 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 1: I forgot about that. She Devil. I don't remember it. 243 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: Definitely wasn't she devil? That was wasn't it was something 244 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: like that though, Yeah, but it was that was pretty good. 245 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: The show was, I mean the the like one minute 246 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: trailer I saw me pretty good. Um. But this, you know, 247 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: the ancient Judaism sort of overlaps with some of this stuff. 248 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: But Judaism is a it's a it's a whole different 249 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: thing because you know, they have references. There's a lot 250 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: of references to things that were later just sort of 251 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: rewritten and reach translated as hell, which makes it really 252 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: confusing if you look at ancient texts. Yeah, Judaism head shield, um, 253 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: which is it kind of follows in that same tradition, uh, 254 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: from the pre Christian era that like when you died, 255 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: there was an afterlife and there wasn't much to it. 256 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: It wasn't but it wasn't it wasn't particularly pleasant. Yeah. 257 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: Apparently to the to the the early Jews, they were 258 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: they were basically saying like this is it's the state 259 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: of mind after death more than like if interdimensional like 260 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: physical place that exists outside of this world, not like 261 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: a realm. But yeah, like you're saying like a, yeah, 262 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: like I guess a state of mind as far as 263 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: as that as that goes. But it also suggests that 264 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: you still have a mind after you die well, and 265 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: it also suggests that um, I mean, there's a little 266 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: bit of the punishment and reward, but it's not necessarily 267 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: you go to the fiery place or you go to 268 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: have and it's a little more of a spiritual connection, 269 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: like if you did good on earth, you're gonna spend 270 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: your afterlife a little closer to God. If you're not 271 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: such a great person, you're gonna be, you know, a 272 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: little further away from God, right, right. But but overall, 273 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: the point of she'all was that no matter what you 274 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: did on earth, no matter who you were, good person, 275 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: bad person, doesn't matter, you were going to go to 276 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: the same place. And even at the time, apparently they 277 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: realized that this was unjust. There's like a part of 278 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: I think Ecclesiastes that says that the fact that there 279 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: are that everybody goes to the same place, no matter 280 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: how good or bad you are in life. This is 281 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: the injustice that is done under the sun. The same 282 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: fate comes to everyone, which I didn't realize that Ecclesiastes rhyme, 283 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: but it's got a nice, nice beat to it, nice tempo. 284 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: Does it doesn't all rhyme? Does it? I don't think so. 285 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: I was kind of surprised at any of it rhyme. 286 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: But there's that That's a really important point, Chuck that 287 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: um to these ancient people, whether they were the early 288 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: Jews or the Canaanites or um or the Egyptians, there 289 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: was there was not punishment in the afterlife. God punished 290 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: you during life like you you were suddenly you know, 291 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: like directing or something like that. That was punishment from God. 292 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: As we kind of evolved away from that, the idea 293 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: that God had a direct daily hand in our lives 294 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: as a as a a species, that punishment moved to 295 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: the afterlife rather than during this life, right, which is 296 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: not recognized. And Judaism of course as New Testament stuff now, 297 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: And there was something else that stuck out to me 298 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: is well, we'll kind of see in a second. Judaism 299 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: seems to have been developed as a religion um as 300 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: as contrary to some of the other religious beliefs that 301 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 1: were around, Like they seem to have really kind of 302 00:17:54,720 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: opposed the Canaanites. The Canaanites were into child sacrifice. They um, 303 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: they had multiple gods, um. And the Jews kind of 304 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: played off of that, like some of these these devils 305 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: that we understand today, demons like malok and by all 306 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: you know, be a apostrophe a l um, those were 307 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: actually Canaanite gods, and they kind of perverted the pronunciation 308 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 1: of them to kind of mock them or make them 309 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: seem other or different. Um. And you think, like, well, 310 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: that's not very nice. That's one religion disparaging another. But 311 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: at the same time, the early Jews were saying like, also, 312 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 1: we shouldn't be sacrificing children, like that's not that's not 313 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: a good thing to do. Let's practice this other thing instead. 314 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: So I'm I'm kind of a fan of the the 315 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: of early Judaism. It turns out I had no idea 316 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: you should convert. I just might. Should we take a break. 317 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 1: I think we should. All right, let's take a break. 318 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: We'll read up a little bit on whether or not 319 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 1: you're allowed to convert, because I don't even know, and 320 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: then we'll be back right after this. Have you converted? 321 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: I looked it up. I'm not allowed to. It would 322 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 1: require me to be religious. Oh well, interesting. Uh So 323 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about the sort of the 324 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 1: confusion of I mean, a lot of the confusion in 325 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: what we think of as hell lies in um. Just 326 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: these these texts, some Hebrew text and translations and miss 327 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: translations and stories that are told, you know, the old 328 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: game of telephone that happened throughout the years while these 329 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: things were passed on. So there's a lot of things 330 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,479 Speaker 1: that you know over the years that you've thought of 331 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: sort of as a generic hell, like Haiti, which was Greek, 332 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: the Greek underworld um also synonymous with the shield, but 333 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: not Hell. Uh. There's Tartarus that's in the Old Testament, 334 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: also from the Greeks, that more closely resembles Hell from 335 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: what I could tell. Yeah, and that's like a part 336 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: of the underworld where God's in prison enemies. Um. There 337 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: is like punishment, it's fiery and maybe that concept and 338 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: like a lot of this what we're doing is sort 339 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,679 Speaker 1: of unpacking what we think of as hell now and 340 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: sort of where this stuff came from. And it seems 341 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: like Tartarus is uh is definitely one of those places. Yeah, 342 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: And like Hades and she all more closely resemble purgatory 343 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: um or Limbo, where Tartarus. Yes, is definitely hell. Hell, 344 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: Like that's where torment and fire is and all all 345 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: this stuff that's really kind of like popped up to me. 346 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: It's like, wow, this is like are what we think 347 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: of as hell today? Even like the cartoon Hell with 348 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 1: like the pitchfork in the fire and all that stuff. 349 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: This is some ancient stuff that it's built on. Over 350 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 1: EON's you know, like the earliest people who started burying 351 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,720 Speaker 1: their dead because they thought like maybe there was a 352 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: life afterward. And it just kind of evolved from that, Colonel, 353 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: and more and more civilizations came along and added to 354 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: it and subtracted to it and said no, you're wrong, 355 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: No you're wrong, and let's go to war over this. 356 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: Like Hell is like this hammered steel drum that's been 357 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: hammered out by you know, millennia of of people and cultures, 358 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 1: and it sounds pretty good. Yeah. I thought you were 359 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: about to say by John Bonham did he play a 360 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: steel drum? No, but it just you sounded it sounded 361 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 1: like the intro to it led Zeppelin song their first 362 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: second um Gehenna is something else we should mention. This 363 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: is another kind of quote unquote hell um But this 364 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 1: was a real place. It was a literal place near 365 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 1: Jerusalem where it sounds like it was kind of a 366 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: uh some sort of ancient uh almost the word I'm 367 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 1: looking for, not necessarily a where where do you take 368 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: all the trash? Episode about it? Land land? Yeah, sort 369 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: of a landfill on fire. Okay, that's one interpretation, which 370 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: is a great record title. I think landfill, Yeah, why not? 371 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 1: But this is where they like would take stuff to burn, um, 372 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: trash basically. And uh there might have also been child 373 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: sacrifice happening there because I guess they figured, well, there's 374 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: a fire already happening, so we won't have to start one. Um. 375 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: It depends on what source you're looking at. But it 376 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: became a metaphorical hell where a place that was on fire. 377 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: You could be sent there. It was a place of judgment, 378 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: you could be cast into it. Uh. And that's in 379 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: the New Testament of course. Um. So that's another sort 380 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: of hades like um, I guess usage that just makes 381 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,239 Speaker 1: it all the more confusing. Yeah. But again, like like 382 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: you know, as we're getting further and further along and 383 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: deeper and deeper into Christianity, which we haven't quite hit yet, 384 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: when Gehennah was first introduced because I think that's Jewish, right, 385 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: It's like a Jewish So even though it is in 386 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: the New Testament um, which has even more confusing right, 387 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 1: but it kind of shows you how like connected, like 388 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: these these civilizations and groups were over the ages, you 389 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: know that this still popped up just borrowing things from 390 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: one another exactly. But then as these translations, you know, 391 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: kind of go on over the centuries and there's newer 392 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: and different versions of the Bible and the New Testament, 393 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: the Old Testament, like you know, all these things just 394 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: become this generic Hell, which kind of opens it up two, 395 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 1: making how this big, huge, amorphous place where oh, it's 396 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: like this, but it's also like this, and it's like that. 397 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: And by naming everything just Hell and losing that kind 398 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: of the ethnicity involved, the Christians were able to kind 399 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: of wholesale adopt all of these ancient traditions and conceptions 400 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: of Hell into their own version of Hell. And this 401 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,720 Speaker 1: is the Christian Hell, whereas if you kind of start 402 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: poking behind it, you're like, oh, this is this Christian 403 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: Hell is made up of all these other conceptions of 404 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,719 Speaker 1: hell along the way. So as far as like uh, 405 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: and I love that Ed calls a section the topology 406 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: of Hell, but that's sort of you know, a big 407 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: part of it is um. And we mentioned a little 408 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,199 Speaker 1: bit Heaven as this place where God lives that's above you, 409 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: up in the sky because it's pretty no one really 410 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: knows exactly where all that comes from, but it all 411 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: does make sense UM that you know, you look to 412 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: the skies when you pray, you look up when you're 413 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,919 Speaker 1: talking to God. And if that's the case, then it 414 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: makes sense that, like you said, with the symmetry, that 415 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: there is another place we bury the dead underground, it 416 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: makes sense that there would be a place that's deep 417 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: and dark and fiery. I guess you know, cave like 418 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: deep underground. That stuff is scary. So it makes sense 419 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: that Hell just sort of became this place that's uh, 420 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, under our eat somewhere. Yeah. 421 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: And what was interesting to me is that like disconnected 422 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: UM groups and cultures, not just geographically but through time 423 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: as well, all had that same conception that like Hell 424 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: was underground and Heaven was somewhere above us or in 425 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: the sky. UM like the Mayan's had a place called Shebalba, 426 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: which is like I guess translates to a place of fear, 427 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: and that is when you die. You start out there 428 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: and it's underground, and it's hellish and scary, and you 429 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: have to work your way up basically into the sky 430 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: to paradise. Um, and she all was underground. It was 431 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: connected to the grave, and that seems to be where 432 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,360 Speaker 1: this idea also not just that heaven was in the sky, 433 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: so hell must be underground, but also that there has 434 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 1: to be some connection underground because we've been burying people 435 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: or at least putting our dead in you know, deep 436 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: dark caves for at least a hundred and thirty thousand 437 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: years from what I seen, but um, it may even 438 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 1: go back before that. In Neanderthals, I think buried they're dead. 439 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: Even so, it's a really kind of ancient impulse to 440 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: like put your dead underground or in some some underground, 441 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: subterranean place like a cave chamber. So of course that 442 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: would be connected to the afterlife in some way. But 443 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 1: it is interesting that it's like, as far as I 444 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: can tell, there's not a single culture that's like, oh, yeah, 445 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: that's where heaven is is underground. Yeah, And it's like 446 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: I find myself saying, well, it makes sense because you 447 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: climb your way out of hell with good works towards heaven. 448 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: Like it's sort of a chicken or the egg thing, 449 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: Like it makes sense to me, But it only makes 450 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: sense because that's the way it's always been framed. Yeah, 451 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 1: there's a few thousand years of culture behind that, that 452 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: way that you were raised or I was raised, you know. Yeah, 453 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: so you mentioned purgatory. Um, this is the realm of 454 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: the afterlife. Uh, purgatory is um. It's like a waiting 455 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 1: room where you were waiting to be judged. Um. It 456 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,479 Speaker 1: is not. It's not like a great place. It's not 457 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,160 Speaker 1: like an awesome waiting room with like the best magazines. 458 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 1: It's more like the waiting room with umoylights and high lights, right, 459 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 1: nothing but highlights and boys life and all of the 460 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 1: puzzles are already filled out. Yeah or oh man. The 461 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: worst is any doctor's office where it's nothing but like 462 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: medical and health magazines. Like, no one wants to read 463 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: that stuff in there, No they don't. You want to 464 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: read a three year old sports illustrated right, and everybody 465 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: else in the waiting room is not wearing a mask. 466 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: Oh no, thank you. It's it's the version of hell. Dude. 467 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,640 Speaker 1: That's my new nightmare. I've had having those about three 468 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: times a week where I'm being descended upon. There they 469 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: seem like zombies, but they're just people without mask right, 470 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 1: it's weird potato potato. But you know what's funny? Has 471 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: this has happened to you where you where you watch 472 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: like movies or TV shows or something pre COVID and 473 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,200 Speaker 1: it's like you're way too close to that person. Get back, 474 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: like we have been changed, man, possibly for ever. Oh 475 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,479 Speaker 1: I think you'd be surprised how quickly we'll forget. I 476 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 1: hope so, oh man, I hope, so, I hope this 477 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: all just becomes like some bad dream that just fades 478 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: over time. And now my mom's getting vaccinated this Saturday. 479 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 1: Good for her, Jack, she needs to do live on 480 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: Instagram or something. Yeah. She was like, you know, should 481 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: I have any reservations? It was like nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. 482 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,199 Speaker 1: And she's like, well then I mean I have to 483 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: wait in line. You're like, oh, those reservations, make reservations, 484 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: make reservations, but yes, stuck. Being stuck in purgatory is 485 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: not a good thing. Um, so it's not it's not hell, 486 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: but it's not someplace where you want to be. That's 487 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: why people you know, use that term now like I'm 488 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: in purgatory. Yeah, And there's something about purgatory that hadn't 489 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: really realized it. It's not interchangeable with limbo. When you 490 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: go into limbo, you're there forever, Like that's where you 491 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: spend eternity, sometimes by no fault of your own. Like 492 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: this is where people who lived before Christ ever existed, 493 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: um go after they die, because they can't possibly have 494 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: been Christians, so they're not being punished, but they're not 495 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: being rewarded by you know, in heaven. It's kind of mean. 496 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: Purgatory is a place where you I guess have to 497 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: have been a Christian but maybe elapsed Christian, a Christian 498 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: who sin something like that, to where you can you 499 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: can work it off and and you know, go on 500 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: to heaven. And that's kind of that universalism or universal 501 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: salvation idea. It's like that's all there is. The hell 502 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: is purgatory where you can work it off over time 503 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: and and be saved. And then also really jibes too 504 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 1: with this idea chuck of Um of the Buddhist hell. Basically, 505 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: the Buddhists have a concept of hell where I think 506 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: called naraka, which is also a Hindu concept. But um, 507 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: there's this this idea that you're you're there for very 508 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: in in each of these hells. You have to go 509 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: through these hells, and your lifetime there's very specific, like 510 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: your your lifetime in this hell is one point six 511 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: two trillion years, and then the next hell is like, 512 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: you know, a quadrillion years or something like that. Um, 513 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,440 Speaker 1: but you eventually work your karma off on Earth. And 514 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: if there's a real striking resemblance this Buddhist hell to 515 00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: some you know, Christian and Jewish interpretations of hell, or 516 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: I should say some Christian interpretations of hell where you 517 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 1: can work off your bad deeds and then go on 518 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: to Nirvana or heaven. That's because they'll borrowed from one another, 519 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 1: it's really I mean, that's basically the fact of the 520 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: podcast is that there's a lot of um incestuous interchange 521 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: between the religions overlap, that's another way to put it. 522 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: What I think is also interesting is the concept of 523 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: temperature in hell. Um, it's a very big deal. You 524 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: always think of of fire and heat and sweatiness, but 525 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: that's not always the case. There are frozen hell's um 526 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: aside from you know, the Dakota's, Uh that Naraka you 527 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: were talking about. I think that's a frozen hell, right, Yeah, 528 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: there's eight hot hells and eight cold hells. And the 529 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: eight cold hells are like, in this one, your skin 530 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: starts a blister. In this one, it's so cold that 531 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: the blisters break, and then it just keeps going from there, 532 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: like all these horrible things happen to you from being 533 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: exposed to the cold. Yeah, it's very interesting. I guess 534 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: it's just sort of a variation of the same thing, 535 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: like something really cold can burn you. Yeah, but I 536 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: mean it really kind of gives you this idea, Chuck. 537 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: There's like so much thought has been given to all 538 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,640 Speaker 1: the little horrible details of Hell, and I wonder, like 539 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 1: what what that satisfies? Like, couldn't you just be like, Okay, 540 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: we all believe that there's a hell and it's a 541 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: horrible place as bad as you can imagine. Just go 542 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: with that. What what was the purpose of going into 543 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: all this detail? I think this I think the specificity 544 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: if if Hell and the and sins on Earth are 545 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: to be punished in the afterlife. To me, it would 546 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,720 Speaker 1: make sense that there would be a great specificity put 547 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: forward so people know exactly how bad it is, uh, 548 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: in order to inform their deeds on earth. Like it's 549 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: not just hey, it's a bad place. You don't want 550 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: to go there. It's like it's a place where your 551 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: skin will melt off and you will be you know, 552 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 1: you'll have to push this fireball around for eternity or whatever. 553 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, and then person, it's like fireball. That 554 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: sounds terrible, Like I was okay with with this thing, 555 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: but maybe I should get a better person. I guess 556 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: I won't steal this car after all. But it's all 557 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: like fear stuff and that you know that existed right 558 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: through my religion, you know, and we still exist today. 559 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: Do you remember roughly how old you were when you're like, oh, 560 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: I don't actually believe this anymore. I'm free. Uh. It's 561 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: started in sort of Middish high school, but I was 562 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: still sort of doing this stuff and hanging with a 563 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: certain crowds. Certain crowds do you mean, like the opposite 564 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: of certain crowds? No, you know, going to like young 565 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: life and uh a f C A and stuff like 566 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: that into early college, and the big transformation I think 567 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: I mentioned this before was when I took a religion 568 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: class in college, and I did learn that so much 569 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: of this stuff is kind of all the same and 570 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: borrowed from one another, and that is antithetical to grow 571 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: up in the Christian Baptist Church, where they're like, no, no, no, 572 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: this is the only truth. Everyone else is wrong. And 573 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: then when I said, well, wait about what about all 574 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: these other religions that are really really similar. Yeah, so 575 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: I had that was a big reckoning and then it 576 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: was just sort of gradual from there. Your comparative religion 577 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: class was taught by Professor Lewis Cipher. Oh man, he 578 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: had a he had a heck of a ponytail. I 579 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: just been out Cipher. I thought that was really clever 580 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: back when I saw that movie. Yeah, and looking back, 581 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: it's pretty dumb, wouldn't it, angel Hart, Yeah, I mean, 582 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: good enough movie, very much of its time. But I 583 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: remember thinking that Louis Cipher thing was like, whoa, right, right, 584 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 1: there's a restaurant I think in like d C. Maybe 585 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: Louis Cipher's yes, And I'm like, that's that's an unusual 586 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: choice to base your restaurant franchise on Satan. You know, 587 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,280 Speaker 1: we love it. Should we take another break? Yeah, let's 588 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: all right, more judgment and punishment coming up right after this. Okay, Chuck, 589 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,400 Speaker 1: you promised judgment, you promised punishment. Let's let's lay it 590 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: on us. Well, I mean, you know, this is like 591 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier in the Old Testament, like God directly 592 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,880 Speaker 1: punished people, you could be smited or blinded or whatever. 593 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: And the New Testament is when things got a little 594 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: more organized, and it was literally like here's the sections 595 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: of hell. If you did this, you go here. If 596 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: you did this on Earth, you go there. Um. And 597 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: a lot of this is informed by writers um and 598 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 1: and not even like biblical scholars, like people like Plato 599 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: um And a lot of these stories again are really 600 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 1: really similar. There's a story from Plato's Republic where a 601 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: man named Er e Er goes into a coma, journeys 602 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: through the underworld and then wakes up and then tells 603 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: everyone what happened down there. And this has a lot 604 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: of reward and punishment included in a really organized system. 605 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 1: And there are a lot of stories really similar to 606 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: that um throughout time that you know, I don't know 607 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 1: if they were based on Plato or or the Republic 608 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: or just like we've been talking about, sort of overlapping incestuous. 609 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: I think you can make the case that they were 610 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: based on Plato because Plato he wasn't the first to 611 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: come up with the idea of the immortal soul. And UM, 612 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: they're they're being like judgment and torment, you know, potentially 613 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: afterward if not reward UM. But he really kind of 614 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: um boosted it. I guess he signaled boosted the idea 615 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: of an eternal soul impossible damn nation UM. And he 616 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 1: directly influenced uh St Augustin and Augustine. Uh definitely influenced 617 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: some of these later guys like drip Helm and tundale 618 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: Um and their idea of how but Augustine was influenced 619 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,240 Speaker 1: by by Plato and Augustine had the other distinction along 620 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,439 Speaker 1: with Um. I think Augustine and St. Gregory were really 621 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: kind of big time into that eternal damn nation idea. 622 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,240 Speaker 1: But Augustine also was the one who basically said, this 623 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,240 Speaker 1: is orth that I see, this is the correct interpretation 624 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,879 Speaker 1: of the scripture. If you don't believe it, we we 625 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: are fine with inflicting violence upon you, that same tradition 626 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: of what you were saying, where this is the only 627 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: truth in anybody who believes anything else is wrong. That 628 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 1: finds its source at the very least, it finds its 629 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 1: early popularity from St. Augustine. So this idea of uh, 630 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: eternal damnation and if you don't believe in that, you're wrong, 631 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: that kind of finds its its place in the early 632 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: Christian Church, and I think the fifth century. And so 633 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 1: you do have these guys who came later, like drip 634 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: Helm and Tundale, who had nothing to do with scripture, 635 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,879 Speaker 1: but their their experiences where basically they died and came 636 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: back to the life and said, there's a hell and 637 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 1: it's awful. Really kind of informed our idea of what 638 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: hell is like. And it seems to be based a 639 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: lot on this ide these ideas by Augustine, who got 640 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,280 Speaker 1: his ideas from Plato, who got his ideas from God 641 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: knows who. God does know who. Uh. If you really 642 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: want to drill down though to um where we get 643 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: many many of our ideas of what we think of 644 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 1: as hell is Dante, of course, who we mentioned earlier. 645 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: Um I did not even know Dante's last name until uh, 646 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 1: until we researched this. But it's and there's gonna be 647 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: some great Italian coming up. Everyone but Dante Algieri in 648 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: his Divine Comedy and specifically Um Inferno. Dante's Inferno is 649 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: is really um really where we get a lot of 650 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: what we think of as hell today comes from Inferno 651 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 1: as far as and people even say without even knowing, 652 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: like the eighth circle of Hell and stuff like that. 653 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 1: Like I've been guilty of saying that my whole life 654 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: and not really understanding what the heck that even meant. 655 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: But what's interesting, too, is so Dante wrote the the Inferno, well, 656 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: he wrote the Divine Comedy UM in the early thirteen hundreds. 657 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: I guess it took him fifteen years um. And so 658 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: this is the undreds, and he writes about these nine 659 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,719 Speaker 1: circles of Hell, the nine concentric circles of Hell, like 660 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 1: that is a really ancient concept, even though he divided 661 00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: it and like really um enunciated all of the different 662 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:18,200 Speaker 1: distinctions in a really popular way. Um. Like that that's 663 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: really old. Like think of that Naraka, there's eight hot 664 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: hot hells, there's eight cold hells. There's like this idea 665 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 1: of different stages, Like the minds even had this idea 666 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,439 Speaker 1: where you progress through these different stages up the tree 667 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 1: of life from that that dark underworld. Um, that's a 668 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 1: really ancient idea. But yeah, Dante was definitely the one 669 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: who you would credit with this, you know, coming up 670 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,879 Speaker 1: with it, even though it's totally wrong. Yeah, And it's 671 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 1: also important to remember when Dante wrote this stuff, it 672 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: was in it was the last fifteen years of his life, 673 00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: and this was after he battled the pope and the 674 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 1: Catholic Church and was exiled from Florence. So a lot 675 00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: of this stuff is just reeks of sort of having 676 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: a bone to pick and like, hey, the things that 677 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: happened to me, like they're going to be slotted in 678 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: like and it's almost like, uh like using his own 679 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,719 Speaker 1: experience to to create the symbolism of like, this is 680 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: what happened to me, and that makes you the worst 681 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 1: person if you did these things exactly Like I'm going 682 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: to put you in hell in my book. And I'm 683 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 1: sure some of those people were alive and like, hey, man, 684 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,359 Speaker 1: don't don't put me in hell, Like this is not 685 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,319 Speaker 1: you can't do that, And he's like, I just did 686 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,319 Speaker 1: you know here's a nice cube. Have fun. So he 687 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: um Dante. One of his big things and that I 688 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 1: think made his work so famous too, was he um 689 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: really got into contraposso you want to take that? No, 690 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: that was great, Um. I didn't even pinch my fingers 691 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:54,160 Speaker 1: and thumb together. Uh. And contraposso is basically this this 692 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: poetic eye for an eye where you know if you 693 00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: if you do this on earth, if you sin in 694 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: this way, your punishment is going to be some poetic 695 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 1: justice um in the afterlife. And that was the whole 696 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: point of of Hell as far as Dante was concerned. 697 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: It was where God got justice for things that were 698 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: done wrong here on earth. And apparently it said as much. 699 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,840 Speaker 1: Over the gate of Hell Um it said you to 700 00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:27,720 Speaker 1: ze most say il mio alto fatore, which means justice 701 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: moved my high maker, Um, which is basically saying like, 702 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 1: this is what this place is for, is to get justice. 703 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: And there's also a very famous um inscription over the 704 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 1: gates of Hell abandoned all hope he who interheed, and 705 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,400 Speaker 1: that came from Uh Dante's Inferno as well. How is 706 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,960 Speaker 1: that what that's from? Mm hmmm. That's good stuff. It 707 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,319 Speaker 1: really is It was also used to great effect in 708 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: Boondocks Saints So Dante and Virgil are um. Before they 709 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,200 Speaker 1: even go to Hell, they have to cross the over 710 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: at Huron and deal with Sharon the boatman, which is 711 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: you know, I think this has been used a million 712 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: times too in literature and pop culture, like this, this 713 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:15,399 Speaker 1: boat person that has to transport someone across this river 714 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: to a different place. Sometimes you have to pass a 715 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: test um, you know, like Monty Python style basically. And 716 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: that's so weird. Right as I said that, I just 717 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: looked up to our Aaron Cooper special Monty Python photoshop 718 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 1: poster where I'm King Arthur and you are one of 719 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 1: the nights. It's Stricklin is in there too, Yeah, isn't 720 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 1: he like the page with the coconuts? Yeah? And there 721 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: he else is over there. Now I'm looking at a 722 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: picture of me face punching George Lucas. You haven't been 723 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,399 Speaker 1: in this room in a while, have you? No? No, 724 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: But I remember it pretty well. It's burned in your 725 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:58,120 Speaker 1: brain after twelve years. Uh So where was I You 726 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,839 Speaker 1: were talking about the river sticks and or Archer Honor, 727 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,040 Speaker 1: and which is might as well be the River sticks? Right, right? 728 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,720 Speaker 1: But it is. It's like straight up taken from the Greeks, 729 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:12,200 Speaker 1: and yet this devout Christian Dante is is writing about 730 00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: it like this the Christian Hell, And it really kind 731 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 1: of goes to to show you just how much literary 732 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:20,240 Speaker 1: license he took with this well and how much um 733 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,680 Speaker 1: he borrowed from the Greeks, because like you, you would 734 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,839 Speaker 1: think this is probably the Christian stance on on hell, 735 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: and it's not um. Like, for instance, Dante sees uh 736 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 1: thinks that it's a virtue if you're have moderation in 737 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 1: your life, like you don't wanna be too spindy and greedy, 738 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:41,920 Speaker 1: also don't want to be too miserly, But that's not 739 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:43,800 Speaker 1: a Christian thing at all, Like that's not in the 740 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: Tin Commandments. It's not one of the seven Deadly sins 741 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,759 Speaker 1: or anything like that. No, there's gluttony, but miserly nous 742 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,600 Speaker 1: is not in there, right, Yeah, So he's definitely just 743 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 1: saying this is this is what I Dante think. But 744 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: I guess it just hit a nerve because I mean, like, 745 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: like we were saying at the outset like this is 746 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 1: this is just this is basically what people think of 747 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: when they think of hell. These days if not the 748 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: fire and the red pitchfork and all that. All right, 749 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: So first circle limbo, not purgatory like we mentioned. Uh, 750 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,960 Speaker 1: this is where you can like it's it's not terrible, 751 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,319 Speaker 1: but it is hell and it's sort of unfair like 752 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,480 Speaker 1: you said, Uh, you know, if you're not like, you 753 00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 1: could just be born before Christ and you can be 754 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:32,279 Speaker 1: in limbo, right like Aristotle's there. Aristotle was great and 755 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:35,320 Speaker 1: virtuous and one of the greatest thinkers the world's ever produced. 756 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,920 Speaker 1: Yet he's stuck in limbo because he existed before Christ 757 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 1: so couldn't possibly be saved. So what's next? Lust is next? 758 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: And this is pretty interesting too in that, um, you know, 759 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 1: some other people who had seen visions of hell, like 760 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,800 Speaker 1: the the you know, medieval nights we talked about earlier, 761 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: they're talking about like you know, oh yeah, they they 762 00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,960 Speaker 1: nail your sack to a board with rusty nails, are 763 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: just really juvenile stuff. Dante goes a lot more poetic, 764 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: and that his idea of lust is is their punishment 765 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 1: for lust is you know, lovers are blown about by 766 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,920 Speaker 1: the wind so that they can never quite get together 767 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,120 Speaker 1: and there's always you know, kept just just out of 768 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,480 Speaker 1: each other's reach, which is you know, it's it's a 769 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,239 Speaker 1: lot more poetic than than the other one. Did you say, 770 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: nail your sack to a board, Yeah, like your backpack? Yes, okay, okay, 771 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,960 Speaker 1: all right. The third circle is gluttony. Uh. Here you're 772 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,839 Speaker 1: stuck in the mud and it's you're being pummeled by 773 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: hail and freezing rain. And um, this is where he 774 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:43,919 Speaker 1: got a little bit of his bone to pick out 775 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:48,279 Speaker 1: on Florence and what a terrible place that was. Um. 776 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,560 Speaker 1: The fourth circle is where we get into the greed 777 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: and the miserly. Um. Basically, um, it's the circle of moderation, like, 778 00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,359 Speaker 1: don't go too far in either direction. Yeah, And he 779 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,799 Speaker 1: really kind of plays into that symmetry as well, where 780 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,440 Speaker 1: on the one side are the people who are super 781 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,840 Speaker 1: gluttonous and like they spend just tons of money, and 782 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 1: then on the other side there are the people who 783 00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: are super stingy and hoard their money. They're really two 784 00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,080 Speaker 1: sides of the same coin. I think Dante is correct 785 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 1: in that sense, and so they're both in that same 786 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:22,319 Speaker 1: circle of hell, but on opposite sides of the circle. 787 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:28,800 Speaker 1: The number five is that, Yeah, that's that's where those 788 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:33,080 Speaker 1: of us who are um who get road rage will 789 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,799 Speaker 1: be potentually that's where I'm gonna be Unford, all right, 790 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,000 Speaker 1: and you're in the river sticks in that case. Yeah, 791 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,279 Speaker 1: I just losh it around, being like I'm so married 792 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:44,799 Speaker 1: about everything. Uh, circle number six everyone. It feels like 793 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: a Dave Letterman Top ten does all of a sudden. 794 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,919 Speaker 1: These are heretics, These are pagans, these are atheists. These 795 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,000 Speaker 1: are people who, while they were on Earth, were like, Hey, 796 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:55,799 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna have a good time while i'm here. 797 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: I'm not worried about salvation. Yeah, and Epicurious in particular, 798 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:03,040 Speaker 1: Ler's there and I was like, why Epicurious? And apparently 799 00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 1: he very much and his followers did not believe in 800 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,480 Speaker 1: any kind of afterlife, which is why they're like, make 801 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: the most of your time here on earth. I guess 802 00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:16,120 Speaker 1: that's where I am. Yeah. Um. It's basically another way 803 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,640 Speaker 1: to interpret that is that these were people who's so 804 00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 1: discord by injecting alternative ideas into the believers minds. All right, 805 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 1: well maybe I'm not there then, um no. Like also, 806 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:31,600 Speaker 1: if you if you don't believe in an afterlife and 807 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:33,680 Speaker 1: you're enjoying your time here on earth, you go there 808 00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: either way you're scrowgy. Either way, well, at least we'll 809 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 1: be there together. Um. We also, I don't think we 810 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,839 Speaker 1: mentioned that Virgil, the poet virgil Um is the one 811 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:47,239 Speaker 1: who's guiding Dante around through these these things, and I 812 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:51,640 Speaker 1: guess it's kind of acting is like his um uh 813 00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 1: oh what is the name of from New York Dolls 814 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:59,680 Speaker 1: and scrooged buster point X. He's acting as Dante's buster 815 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:03,759 Speaker 1: point decks um, and so virtual's escorting him around. They 816 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,320 Speaker 1: get to the seventh circle of hell Um, which contains 817 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,759 Speaker 1: the city of dis which dis or is this in 818 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: the sixth I think it's in the sixth Yeah comes 819 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,520 Speaker 1: after Yeah, So the and so a lot of a 820 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,880 Speaker 1: lot of people, um kind of chop up these circles 821 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 1: of hell into the first through third, the second through 822 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,280 Speaker 1: the sixth, and the seventh through the ninth. And apparently 823 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:36,560 Speaker 1: Dante considered basically the first through the six is all 824 00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:40,400 Speaker 1: kind of generally in the same category, which was they 825 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 1: were sins of incontinence where people just couldn't resist the 826 00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 1: earthly temptations. They had a weakness of will. They're you know, 827 00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,440 Speaker 1: they're being tormented because they made these choices. But Also 828 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,920 Speaker 1: this is really it's it's forgivable stuff. Seventh through nine 829 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,920 Speaker 1: is where who he considers the the gen new in centers, 830 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:06,120 Speaker 1: the evil people reside. Yeah, this is where arsonists and murderers. 831 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,120 Speaker 1: Um that he actually framed, you know, suicide as one 832 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:14,840 Speaker 1: of these Uh in that seventh circle, Um, the eighth circle, 833 00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,760 Speaker 1: and you know this is it gets a little confusing 834 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,399 Speaker 1: because in their smaller pockets within these circles. Uh. And again, 835 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,440 Speaker 1: if you're a scholar of Dante, just I'm so so sorry, 836 00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:30,120 Speaker 1: so sorry. Yeah, hopefully they turned this. But the eighth 837 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:35,480 Speaker 1: circle is for ten kinds of fraud. And then the 838 00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,239 Speaker 1: ninth circle is finally where Satan is and this is 839 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:43,600 Speaker 1: for for Satan and as the lead trader basically um, 840 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:48,200 Speaker 1: not trader but trade or which is you know, this 841 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,560 Speaker 1: is a big one for me. I mean as a 842 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:56,520 Speaker 1: Pisces Uh Sabbath fan of Black Sabbath like loyalty and 843 00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,759 Speaker 1: um is very important. Broken trust is to me like 844 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,800 Speaker 1: of the worst things someone can do. And so I 845 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,840 Speaker 1: didn't realize that was picy in in nature. Yeah, pretty 846 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:11,160 Speaker 1: pice in very loyal very friendships and relationships are sort 847 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,880 Speaker 1: of the utmost importance to be betrayed is like just 848 00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,719 Speaker 1: kind of the worst thing you can do. So this 849 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,000 Speaker 1: is this would be your your you'd really enjoy this. Yeah, 850 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:23,759 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that's my eighth circle. Um. But 851 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,200 Speaker 1: it's interesting in that Satan, the ultimate trader to God, 852 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:31,680 Speaker 1: is stuck there but could get out. Um. In theory, 853 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:36,479 Speaker 1: if Satan just realized that, like, hey, I'm beneath God 854 00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,920 Speaker 1: and I can recognize God as being above me and 855 00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:44,600 Speaker 1: I am not God's equal. Um. And it's a frozen 856 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,080 Speaker 1: it gets a little confusing, but it's a frozen lake. 857 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,160 Speaker 1: It's a little antithetical to what we think about is 858 00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,319 Speaker 1: Satan is being fiery, because what happens is the lake 859 00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,560 Speaker 1: with thaw and free Satan. If he wasn't flapping his 860 00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:59,439 Speaker 1: big bat wings to try and fly up to God 861 00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,960 Speaker 1: to proof he's as equal, but instead of Satan's wings, 862 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,359 Speaker 1: I guess throwing forth like fire what you would think 863 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,120 Speaker 1: and actually I guess is icy and it just keeps 864 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,120 Speaker 1: that like frozen. Right. But if he would just yeah, 865 00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,560 Speaker 1: if he'd just give up, then he'd stopped beating his 866 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:17,080 Speaker 1: wings and then it wouldn't all right, yeah, and then 867 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,200 Speaker 1: he would be free. But then he just wouldn't be 868 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 1: Satan anymore. You know what I mean, to be a 869 00:51:21,160 --> 00:51:23,759 Speaker 1: broken version of Satan, and who wants that? Right then 870 00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:29,120 Speaker 1: we wouldn't have Tommy Davis Junior TV pilot. Yeah, right, exactly. So, 871 00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,279 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like our idea of Hell just 872 00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,440 Speaker 1: ended at Dante. But I was like, yep, that's it. 873 00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:37,520 Speaker 1: Don't need to add to it, Like plenty of people 874 00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,759 Speaker 1: have over time. One of the coolest I've seen I 875 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:45,319 Speaker 1: cannot remember what it was, but I suspect that was 876 00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:52,000 Speaker 1: an aon flux Um cartoon on Remember Liquids on MTV. 877 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,040 Speaker 1: I think somehow aon flux ended up in Hell and 878 00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,839 Speaker 1: like this, the the weird conception of it was just 879 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,280 Speaker 1: so unsettling. Everything was just so off. It was really 880 00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: well done, and I'll have to go, like see if 881 00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,440 Speaker 1: I can find it. All I could find was that 882 00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: aon Flex the movie sucked. That's all you can find 883 00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:13,520 Speaker 1: when you search a on Flex in Hell right now. 884 00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,480 Speaker 1: But um, I really want to find that again. If 885 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,399 Speaker 1: I do, I'll have to tweet it out. Yeah. I mean, 886 00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,759 Speaker 1: you could do a whole second podcast episode on popular 887 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:25,319 Speaker 1: versions of Hell and pop culture and movies and TV 888 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:30,560 Speaker 1: and literature. Paintings. Serronamous Bosh is a great example. Um. 889 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,320 Speaker 1: I love those paintings. This was a couple of centuries 890 00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,000 Speaker 1: after Inferno. But these are the ones that look like 891 00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,920 Speaker 1: sort of in default album covers. Um. They're great, very 892 00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:44,360 Speaker 1: cool stuff. Uh. And you know, like I said, there's 893 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 1: scores of versions of Hell, from Clive Barker to Marvel 894 00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:53,000 Speaker 1: Comics Too, to Sammy Davis Jr. And The Good Place. 895 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,880 Speaker 1: They're all over the place. So it's definitely something that's like, 896 00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:01,279 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just weirdly captured pop cultures imagination, 897 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,680 Speaker 1: just as much as it did thousands of years ago 898 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:07,080 Speaker 1: with religion. You know, one of the greatest, one of 899 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,399 Speaker 1: the other great um conceptions of the afterlife, not necessarily hell, 900 00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:13,680 Speaker 1: but hell ish um is found in this. I think 901 00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:15,919 Speaker 1: I've mentioned it before a Joyce Carol Oates short story 902 00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,839 Speaker 1: called night Side, where there's this um seance and like 903 00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:23,279 Speaker 1: the spirits that are contacted are like all freaked out 904 00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,879 Speaker 1: because there's no it's all just chaos. Nobody. I think 905 00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,440 Speaker 1: they keep saying, like no one's in charge and like 906 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,440 Speaker 1: everything is just out of order. Um. And it's a 907 00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:36,440 Speaker 1: really like unsettling read like Joyce Killer Oates is so 908 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,640 Speaker 1: good with horror, but that that particular one is super disturbing. 909 00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:42,719 Speaker 1: I highly recommend everybody reading it. Yeah, and if you 910 00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:44,720 Speaker 1: want to see a fun take on the afterlife, watch 911 00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,720 Speaker 1: the great Albert Brooks movie Defending Your Life. Oh my god, 912 00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:50,680 Speaker 1: that is such a great movie. One of the all 913 00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:54,799 Speaker 1: time great sleeper films ever, wonderful, so good. Yeah, that's 914 00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,120 Speaker 1: a good that's a treat right there. Good for you, 915 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,759 Speaker 1: the great Albert Brooks. Yeah. Well, since Chuck can't stop 916 00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,560 Speaker 1: talking about Albert Brooks, I think that means it's time 917 00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:08,960 Speaker 1: for listener. Ma'm fun. Fact a lot of people know this. 918 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:14,640 Speaker 1: Albert Brooks born Albert Einstein. No, yes, no, yes, brother 919 00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:18,520 Speaker 1: of super Dave Osborne. I guess I had known that, 920 00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,359 Speaker 1: but only when Super Dave died recently, right, uh, yeah, 921 00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:26,040 Speaker 1: he did die. Their birth name was Einstein. I think 922 00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:30,080 Speaker 1: I think Super Dave Osborne was super Dave Einstein. No, 923 00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:35,359 Speaker 1: I think it was Bob Einstein. And I don't know. 924 00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:38,840 Speaker 1: I think so, I don't know, but that he's like 925 00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:42,319 Speaker 1: from the Larry Bud Melman era of Letterman and yeah, 926 00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,040 Speaker 1: good stuff. Oh yeah, So if you want to know 927 00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,440 Speaker 1: more about Hell, just start sending your a off and 928 00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,239 Speaker 1: you'll find out about it soon enough. And like I said, 929 00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 1: since Chuck keeps talking about Albert Brooks, it is time 930 00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,480 Speaker 1: for a listener. Man. Yeah, I'm gonna call this one 931 00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,680 Speaker 1: of our great senior listeners. Uh. And this this lady 932 00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:04,120 Speaker 1: is from Australia. Hello, guys. I'm an eighty year old 933 00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:08,239 Speaker 1: woman in aged care. My life was very mundane and 934 00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:12,120 Speaker 1: quite boring. I finally bought a mobility scooter now uh 935 00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,280 Speaker 1: and I could get out and ride the wonderful pathways 936 00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,839 Speaker 1: and visit the shops. My son Robert, thought I needed 937 00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,760 Speaker 1: more interest, so he hooked my phone up to Josh 938 00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:24,600 Speaker 1: and Chuck podcasts. Wow, all capitals. How I love riding 939 00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:27,240 Speaker 1: around on my scooter and listening to your wonderful humor 940 00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:32,239 Speaker 1: and mostly interesting things in quotes. I love it. So 941 00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,799 Speaker 1: perhaps she even has the book. I have learned so 942 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:41,640 Speaker 1: much about everything, love Elvis, visiting Nixon for a NARC, Badge, 943 00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:47,080 Speaker 1: Building Boulder, Damn, Francis Perkins, etcetera. Just everything. Guys, keep 944 00:55:47,160 --> 00:55:52,799 Speaker 1: up the good work. Cheers from Glenda on the Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia. 945 00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,879 Speaker 1: Very nice. That was Glenda write. Yeah, I just love 946 00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,719 Speaker 1: hearing from Glinda. She's great. Thank you, Glenda. Yeah, I 947 00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:01,600 Speaker 1: think Glenda should write in every once in a while. 948 00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:03,960 Speaker 1: I was just say hi and talk about her favorite 949 00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,040 Speaker 1: recent episode. I would love What do you think, Glenda, 950 00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,040 Speaker 1: if you're listening, please do that and what was her son? 951 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:15,480 Speaker 1: Richard Robert Robert Robert. Thank you for turning your mom 952 00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:19,600 Speaker 1: onto stuff you should Know. Um, well, if you wanna 953 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,960 Speaker 1: talk about how you turn somebody onto stuff you should know, 954 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,480 Speaker 1: we would love to hear about that. That's great. You 955 00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:28,000 Speaker 1: can write us in an email, wrap it up, spank 956 00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:30,440 Speaker 1: it on the bottom, and send it off to Stuff 957 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:37,160 Speaker 1: Podcasts at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff you Should Know 958 00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:39,920 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts 959 00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,840 Speaker 1: for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 960 00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:44,560 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.