1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,600
Speaker 1: Just want to take a moment to wish everyone a

2
00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,040
Speaker 1: happy Thanksgiving. I hope they were able to take some

3
00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,039
Speaker 1: time off, spend it with your family, with your friends,

4
00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,320
Speaker 1: with your loved ones, and just enjoy the moment and

5
00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,920
Speaker 1: enjoy the day. I know that I'm so grateful for

6
00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,680
Speaker 1: my family. I'm so grateful for my friends. I'm thankful

7
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,720
Speaker 1: and grateful for a job that I love doing, being

8
00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:22,120
Speaker 1: able to share this with you and hopefully bring on

9
00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,880
Speaker 1: some great guests that you find interesting and have conversations

10
00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,960
Speaker 1: that are important. I'm also so thankful for the directional

11
00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,320
Speaker 1: change in the country, the outcome of this election. We're

12
00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,080
Speaker 1: on a terrible track, and I'm just so thankful that

13
00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,000
Speaker 1: the country as a whole made a decision to change

14
00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,440
Speaker 1: and we're able to vote our way out of the

15
00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,559
Speaker 1: direction that we're heading in. And in that I want

16
00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,400
Speaker 1: to reshare an episode I did with doctor j Batcharia. He,

17
00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,280
Speaker 1: of course, was announced recently by Donald Trump to be

18
00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,240
Speaker 1: his Director of National Institutes of Health. This is someone

19
00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:59,160
Speaker 1: who in October twenty twenty author the Great Barrington Declaration,

20
00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,520
Speaker 1: where he was called for an end to the COVID lockdowns.

21
00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:05,880
Speaker 1: We know that the COVID lockdowns did tremendous harm to

22
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:10,240
Speaker 1: the country financially. Businesses were shut down as a result.

23
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,919
Speaker 1: You know, churches were shut down. You have kids still

24
00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,319
Speaker 1: far behind in school because of the COVID lockdowns. We

25
00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,840
Speaker 1: know that there were sewer sides, there was overdoses, depression

26
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:21,399
Speaker 1: as well.

27
00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,200
Speaker 2: So did tremendous harm to the country. And he was right.

28
00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:27,559
Speaker 1: But because he called it up, because he stood strong.

29
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,000
Speaker 1: You had doctor Fauci and then the then NIH director,

30
00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,640
Speaker 1: Francis Collins. They emailed each other and tried to They

31
00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:38,600
Speaker 1: plotted to try to take down people like doctor Daboutchara.

32
00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,679
Speaker 1: He was faced with slander with you know, professional repercussions.

33
00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,560
Speaker 1: He was banned on Twitter. The list goes on, you know.

34
00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 1: So there's always a price for standing tall, and he

35
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,520
Speaker 1: went through it. But fortunately now he was named as

36
00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:55,200
Speaker 1: the NIH director and so you know what poetic justice

37
00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,640
Speaker 1: to now be in charge and to help her country

38
00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,120
Speaker 1: just be on a better trage victory health wise, and

39
00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,800
Speaker 1: maybe restore some trust into some of these institutions into

40
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,880
Speaker 1: public health, because Lord knows they need it, because we

41
00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,639
Speaker 1: don't trust them for good reason. A lot to get

42
00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,600
Speaker 1: into it's going to be super interesting. We'll get you

43
00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,080
Speaker 1: the truth on all of this with doctor j. Baticharia.

44
00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:17,920
Speaker 1: Stay tuned.

45
00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,040
Speaker 2: I'm so excited for this next episode.

46
00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,040
Speaker 1: As we're saying this, this new variant in the country,

47
00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,280
Speaker 1: the panic, the draconian measures, rins and repeat, which is

48
00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:32,639
Speaker 1: something we're all familiar with.

49
00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,400
Speaker 2: So I'm so happy to have doctor J.

50
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,000
Speaker 1: Batichara on the show, someone who has been a voice

51
00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,280
Speaker 1: of reason throughout all this chaos.

52
00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,040
Speaker 2: Doctor thanks so much for joining the show.

53
00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:43,320
Speaker 3: Oh thank you for having me.

54
00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:44,600
Speaker 2: So I'm actually one.

55
00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,919
Speaker 1: Of the unlucky recipients of this new variant. I have

56
00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,160
Speaker 1: spent the past week now just getting over COVID, so

57
00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,440
Speaker 1: fortunately I'm on the other side of it almost, but

58
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:56,720
Speaker 1: it definitely kicked my butt.

59
00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:57,520
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna lie.

60
00:02:57,880 --> 00:02:59,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think it could be, you know,

61
00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,959
Speaker 3: the delta still floating around, So I think the evidence

62
00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,959
Speaker 3: on omicron by itself is that it's milder. But COVID

63
00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,360
Speaker 3: isn't a joke. I mean, obviously, so many people have

64
00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,079
Speaker 3: died from it, so it's something we should take seriously,

65
00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,280
Speaker 3: but it's not something we should destroy our society around,

66
00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,120
Speaker 3: which is unfortunately I think we've done in a large

67
00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:19,960
Speaker 3: in many ways over the last two years.

68
00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:22,320
Speaker 1: Well, it definitely has, and you know, you were one

69
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,680
Speaker 1: of the few people out there really arguing against some

70
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,440
Speaker 1: of those draconian lockdowns. You know what's so interesting is

71
00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,680
Speaker 1: there's recently a Foyer request from the American Institute for

72
00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,640
Speaker 1: Economic Research that undercovered emails where doctor Fauci and doctor

73
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:40,040
Speaker 1: Francis Collins were scheming against you and the other individuals

74
00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,320
Speaker 1: who sign the Great Barrington Declaration. What did that feel

75
00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,800
Speaker 1: like to sort of be on the receiving end of

76
00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:48,520
Speaker 1: you know, the government's propaganda and attacks.

77
00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,080
Speaker 3: Really, I mean, it was really surprised. I mean, I

78
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,080
Speaker 3: guess in a sense, I'm not surprised that it happened

79
00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,040
Speaker 3: surprising to see you in black and white the last

80
00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,800
Speaker 3: year and some have been quite difficult because what's happened

81
00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:00,440
Speaker 3: over the coast of year and a half and so

82
00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,960
Speaker 3: is after we wrote the Great Mansion Decoration, which which

83
00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:06,720
Speaker 3: we it was with me sun Neetragupta from professor at

84
00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:11,120
Speaker 3: Oxford University. She's a fantastic theoretical epidemiologists and like say,

85
00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:16,360
Speaker 3: practical epidemiologists, and then Martin Kuldorf at Harvard University, amazing biostatistician.

86
00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:20,040
Speaker 3: We wrote this in October twenty twenty, and the idea

87
00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,080
Speaker 3: was very simple. The COVID has an enormously bad effect

88
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:26,760
Speaker 3: on people who were older. It's a also a thousandfold

89
00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,680
Speaker 3: increase in the risk of death and severe disease if

90
00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,040
Speaker 3: you are older versus if you're young. At the same time,

91
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,880
Speaker 3: the lockdowns have been devastating, just devastatingly harmful. Tens of

92
00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:40,000
Speaker 3: millions of people thrown into starvation worldwide, missed cancer screenings,

93
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:42,200
Speaker 3: resulting in breast cancers that are that should have been

94
00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,120
Speaker 3: cut earlier, tolling cancers, psychological effects, especially on kids, has

95
00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:48,839
Speaker 3: been enormous. So we called for an end to the

96
00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,200
Speaker 3: lockdowns and focused protection for the elderly, especially for the

97
00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:54,880
Speaker 3: old and other other vulnerable. What we hoped for was

98
00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:57,840
Speaker 3: an open conversation with the public health community about how

99
00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,599
Speaker 3: best to protect the old older population without a lockdown,

100
00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:02,560
Speaker 3: because the idea, but up until its one, was the

101
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,920
Speaker 3: only way to protect anybody was a lockdown to stop

102
00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:06,640
Speaker 3: this isase from spreading. That we knew that was not

103
00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,120
Speaker 3: possible because what the lockdowns do is does is it

104
00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 3: protects a certain class of rich people who can who

105
00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,159
Speaker 3: can stay home at work and not lose their jobs

106
00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,440
Speaker 3: and not anyone else. So we put this out hoping

107
00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:20,560
Speaker 3: that we're to open a conversation. Instead, what was we

108
00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,520
Speaker 3: were met with was just this like realification campaign, this

109
00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:26,919
Speaker 3: campaign to say that we wanted the virus to rip society,

110
00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:29,880
Speaker 3: to kill people, as if we were somehow ghouls that

111
00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:32,599
Speaker 3: wanted to destroy people, to destroy the lives of people.

112
00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,600
Speaker 3: And I was I wondered what was the source of that?

113
00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,920
Speaker 3: And the Francis Collins emails that were released through FOYA

114
00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,640
Speaker 3: reveals that the NIH, with the including the head of

115
00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:47,120
Speaker 3: the NIH and Tony Fauci, the head of the Nai D,

116
00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,200
Speaker 3: they spread those lives. They worked to try to get

117
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,640
Speaker 3: the media to amplify them, and it led to so

118
00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,360
Speaker 3: many interviews with reporters where they're asking me why I

119
00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:57,720
Speaker 3: wanted to let it rip, why I wanted to herd

120
00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:02,120
Speaker 3: immunity strategy, which is which is nonsense. And it made

121
00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,279
Speaker 3: my life much more difficult, even with my colleagues who

122
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:07,240
Speaker 3: sort of fell for the propaganda.

123
00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,120
Speaker 1: Well, and what's so odd is, I mean, science is

124
00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:14,680
Speaker 1: not supposed to be this consensus, this group think. I mean,

125
00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:18,840
Speaker 1: you're supposed to have diverging opinions. And so when did

126
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,840
Speaker 1: this change. And why do you think it changed? Because

127
00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:25,160
Speaker 1: we've really seen this take fold in a way that

128
00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,440
Speaker 1: is so different than you know, times of the past.

129
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,240
Speaker 1: So where is science today and how do you think

130
00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:31,920
Speaker 1: that happened?

131
00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,280
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's always been true for science.

132
00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,480
Speaker 3: Science is such a powerful, beautiful thing. It's like an

133
00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,719
Speaker 3: engine for producing things that tend to be true, right,

134
00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:46,160
Speaker 3: so learning how the material world functions. Science is so powerful.

135
00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,039
Speaker 3: It's achieved so much. But I think what's happened over

136
00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,240
Speaker 3: the I don't know exactly the timeframe, but certainly we've

137
00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,440
Speaker 3: seen this and during the pandemic, science has become a

138
00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:59,680
Speaker 3: thing where essentially you believe in it just because it's science,

139
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 3: rather than understanding the mechanisms by which science tends to

140
00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,000
Speaker 3: produce truth and so like you can see this with

141
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,560
Speaker 3: the almost crazy worship of Tony fauci Or and even

142
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,960
Speaker 3: the way he talks about science. He says things like,

143
00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,080
Speaker 3: if you disagree with me, you're not simply just disagreeing

144
00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,880
Speaker 3: with a man, you were disagreeing with science itself. He's

145
00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,320
Speaker 3: turned science into a god. He is a high priest

146
00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,680
Speaker 3: of science. When he says things like that that's not

147
00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,440
Speaker 3: the right way to think about science. We say's exactly

148
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,480
Speaker 3: what you said. Science is a process by which truth

149
00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:35,400
Speaker 3: reveals itself with open mindedness, tolerance, and openness to discussion,

150
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,800
Speaker 3: also correction by data. Right, So if you believe A

151
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,600
Speaker 3: and I believe B, we disagree, well, we agree on

152
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,600
Speaker 3: an experiment and it resolves and it turns out you're right,

153
00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,280
Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh darn, I'm you're right. And then

154
00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,560
Speaker 3: they say, well, then buy dinner or something, and then

155
00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,960
Speaker 3: I say see, and we do the next thing right. Then, slowly,

156
00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:58,120
Speaker 3: over time, by that open discussion, we learn things about

157
00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,760
Speaker 3: the real world. During the pandemic, what's happened, It's essentially

158
00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,560
Speaker 3: replaced with this attitude you've see in this letter, and

159
00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,160
Speaker 3: also the Francis Collins, head of a NIH wrote, and

160
00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,840
Speaker 3: also what Tony Fauci has said of science as a

161
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,760
Speaker 3: dictum as given from on high. The science has said, X,

162
00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,840
Speaker 3: Y or Z. There is no fighting over it, there's

163
00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,600
Speaker 3: no disagreeing over it, there's no recourse to any data

164
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,880
Speaker 3: that would solve it. Instead, you just propagandaize, you demonize

165
00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,080
Speaker 3: people who disagree with you, and you push them the

166
00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,280
Speaker 3: outside so that that scientific opinion is outside the bounds

167
00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,960
Speaker 3: of the polite discussion. I mean, that's essentially exactly what

168
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,640
Speaker 3: Francis Collins and the NIH did to the Great Parenton declaration.

169
00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,600
Speaker 1: Well, and they did this at the beginning of COVID

170
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,480
Speaker 1: as well, at the beginning of the pandemic, of trying

171
00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:49,600
Speaker 1: to shut down any talk about the virus having escaped

172
00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,280
Speaker 1: from the Wuhan lab. There they did it in the

173
00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,360
Speaker 1: lance that you had. Peter Dazak and a bunch of

174
00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,320
Speaker 1: scientists wrote that letter, basically trying to shut down any

175
00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,840
Speaker 1: alternative thought process of oh, it had to have come

176
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,080
Speaker 1: from the wet market, which even China is saying that

177
00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:04,320
Speaker 1: didn't happen, now, you know.

178
00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,080
Speaker 2: So they try to shut down.

179
00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,480
Speaker 1: So there just seems to be this really odd desire

180
00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,480
Speaker 1: by the people in charge, people like doctor Fauci, of

181
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,720
Speaker 1: just shutting down any alternative viewpoint in a way that

182
00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,720
Speaker 1: is really dangerous and to me, I think the reason

183
00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,840
Speaker 1: why everyone should be concerned about this is what information

184
00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,400
Speaker 1: are we not getting? What critical information do we not

185
00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,200
Speaker 1: know that is not being shared, that is not being

186
00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,120
Speaker 1: brought to light that could potentially save lives because of

187
00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,760
Speaker 1: this group think, because of the shutting down, because of

188
00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,680
Speaker 1: the labeling, anything that is outside of what doctor Fauci

189
00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:41,280
Speaker 1: deems acceptable as conspiracy. You know, what information are we

190
00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,600
Speaker 1: not learning right now that we need to know?

191
00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,360
Speaker 3: I mean that's always the problem when you treat science

192
00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,040
Speaker 3: as if it were established out of facts with the

193
00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,800
Speaker 3: high priesthood right, What if the high priesthood is wrong?

194
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:55,320
Speaker 3: How would you know? There's no there's no fighting with

195
00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:00,200
Speaker 3: them reasonably, with data and with reason. Instead would you

196
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,200
Speaker 3: have is dictims someone which may be right, someone which

197
00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,400
Speaker 3: may be wrong. It's impossible to tell because it hasn't

198
00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:08,480
Speaker 3: been subjected to the test that you normally would subject

199
00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,040
Speaker 3: to scientific ideas to every scientific idea is subject to

200
00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,320
Speaker 3: challenge in that same exact way. It has to be

201
00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:16,600
Speaker 3: what do we not know? And I agree with you,

202
00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,640
Speaker 3: like a great example, is this this idea that it

203
00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,840
Speaker 3: couldn't have possibly been a lab leakue? Right? Well, I

204
00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,320
Speaker 3: mean in fact it was conspiracy the or even suggested

205
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,760
Speaker 3: for a long time. The revision on this is.

206
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,520
Speaker 4: Is I think going to be healthy.

207
00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,240
Speaker 3: But a lot of the sort of circling of wagons

208
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,320
Speaker 3: are on a lablique. Frankly, it's smacks of like a

209
00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,240
Speaker 3: cover up to me, whether there was a lab leak

210
00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:38,520
Speaker 3: or not.

211
00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:38,760
Speaker 4: I don't.

212
00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:40,640
Speaker 3: I don't know for certain, it's hard, it's going to

213
00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,840
Speaker 3: be challenging to find out, but certainly we should be

214
00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,600
Speaker 3: allowed to ask questions around along those lines. Same thing

215
00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:48,440
Speaker 3: was like, actually I worked on a study in the

216
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,320
Speaker 3: early days of the epidemic called the Santa Clair Serra

217
00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,200
Speaker 3: Prevalence Study and the La County Syerra Prevalence where what

218
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,120
Speaker 3: we tried to do is figure out how widespread the

219
00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,640
Speaker 3: disease was in the in the population. What we found

220
00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,480
Speaker 3: was that in April twenty twenty in Santa Clara and

221
00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,040
Speaker 3: La County there were forty or fifty times more infections

222
00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:09,000
Speaker 3: than cases, which meant a few things. One, the mortality

223
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:10,880
Speaker 3: rifts and disease was much lower than people have been

224
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,120
Speaker 3: saying because the denominator the number of people infected was

225
00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,000
Speaker 3: much higher, but the deaths were the same, so you

226
00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,679
Speaker 3: just didn't didn't. But the second, and equally probably more important,

227
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:22,160
Speaker 3: is that by that meant that it was so widespread

228
00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,080
Speaker 3: by April or twenty twenty, there was already too late

229
00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:26,600
Speaker 3: to have a zero COVID.

230
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:27,840
Speaker 4: Kind of policy that we've been following.

231
00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,280
Speaker 3: The idea for the policy all along is being oh, well,

232
00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,520
Speaker 3: we just need to suppress the spread of the virus

233
00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,280
Speaker 3: down to low enough levels so we can open society again. Well,

234
00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,440
Speaker 3: I mean, if you look at the data from April

235
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,680
Speaker 3: twenty twenty, there was no chance that was going to

236
00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:40,040
Speaker 3: be true.

237
00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:42,600
Speaker 4: That's successful in most places in the world.

238
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,520
Speaker 3: In fact, that's exactly what's happened. We've done so much

239
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,920
Speaker 3: to try to lock down and get those virus down

240
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,240
Speaker 3: to zero that we've been unable to stop the spread

241
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,160
Speaker 3: of the disease. We don't have the technology to do that.

242
00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,080
Speaker 3: Tony Fauci wrote a letter an email about that Santa.

243
00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,559
Speaker 4: Clara study that was in an earlier.

244
00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,720
Speaker 3: Email from paying through Foya, where he had a five

245
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,160
Speaker 3: pages of redacted the text that was redacted about the study,

246
00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,439
Speaker 3: and he at at the end of the five pages

247
00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,520
Speaker 3: he said he had a line saying, well, we should

248
00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:13,240
Speaker 3: contact one of.

249
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:14,040
Speaker 4: The authors of the study.

250
00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,720
Speaker 3: It was one of my colleagues who was their senior

251
00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,040
Speaker 3: author on the study. He never was contacted. I would

252
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,840
Speaker 3: dearly love to know what those five pages of redacted

253
00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,280
Speaker 3: tech said, because what should have happened in response to

254
00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,880
Speaker 3: that study and a whole bunch of other share prevalent studies,

255
00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,680
Speaker 3: is a revision of thinking about what the right policy

256
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,600
Speaker 3: should be. And yet, just like with the LAB leak,

257
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:40,520
Speaker 3: just like with the Great Parentine Declaration, the NIH closed ranks,

258
00:12:40,559 --> 00:12:42,840
Speaker 3: the CDC closed ranks, and decided to go full on

259
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,240
Speaker 3: down the lockdown strategy that led to such disaster the

260
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:45,920
Speaker 3: last two years.

261
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,040
Speaker 1: Well, and so I remember, you know, I was one

262
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:50,400
Speaker 1: of the people screaming from the rooftops because I was

263
00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,280
Speaker 1: reading stuff that doctor ian Edes was writing. I was

264
00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,320
Speaker 1: saying the study that you just talked about that you

265
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,959
Speaker 1: worked out at a Santa Clara. And then we had also,

266
00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,480
Speaker 1: I think closely after that, there was this study out

267
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,560
Speaker 1: of New York. There was also Miami Dade County, and

268
00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,360
Speaker 1: all of it was sort of saying the same thing

269
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,560
Speaker 1: that we were missing cases by like you know, I

270
00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:10,840
Speaker 1: think it was something like ten to sixty five fold

271
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,560
Speaker 1: or something, which means that it's a lot less deadly

272
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,160
Speaker 1: than we originally thought. And then you had also, I

273
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,320
Speaker 1: think it was New York's own data was saying that

274
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,000
Speaker 1: the majority of the new hospitalizations were people who were

275
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:22,640
Speaker 1: staying at home. So to your point, we had all

276
00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,160
Speaker 1: this information in front of us that the decisions we

277
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,200
Speaker 1: were making were the wrong ones. Yet people, you know,

278
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,040
Speaker 1: continue down that road. But you know, here we are

279
00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,920
Speaker 1: again sort of in the same position where we have

280
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,760
Speaker 1: this new variant out that is seemingly as contagious as

281
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,320
Speaker 1: the measles. Yet they're still trying to, you know, revise

282
00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:44,280
Speaker 1: the old bag of tricks to stop something that we

283
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:45,000
Speaker 1: can't stop.

284
00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:46,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean the problem is

285
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 3: that it's exposed to actual discussion and data. The people

286
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,199
Speaker 3: who supported the lockdowns really have no argument, right. They'll

287
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,400
Speaker 3: point to places like Australia and New Zealand say well,

288
00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,440
Speaker 3: look they got to zero, but in fact they didn't

289
00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,480
Speaker 3: get to zero. You can see the cases it'sploding Australia now,

290
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,560
Speaker 3: the you can see the cases of sort of coming back.

291
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,600
Speaker 3: They've had more lockdown days than any place on Earth,

292
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,960
Speaker 3: and yet the disease is still floating around. The way

293
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:17,120
Speaker 3: that that the lockdowners have behaved, it's as if they said, well,

294
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:20,280
Speaker 3: there was no other possible alternative response to this this

295
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,080
Speaker 3: virus other than to to do the kind of you know,

296
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:28,280
Speaker 3: school closures and uh, church closures and and closing businesses

297
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,680
Speaker 3: and uh and sort of ending normal civic life. Well,

298
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,640
Speaker 3: that didn't work. Was a complete disaster for the poor,

299
00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,320
Speaker 3: the vulnerable, builth in the both in devestment in the

300
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,600
Speaker 3: developed world and the developing world. Pretend it is if

301
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,200
Speaker 3: we had no choice, that that wasn't actually a policy

302
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,640
Speaker 3: choice is completely disingenuous, and in order to maintain the

303
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:50,840
Speaker 3: illusion that we had no choice, they had to shut

304
00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,720
Speaker 3: down the scientific debate about it, and so that the campaign,

305
00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,480
Speaker 3: the propaganda campaign about the Great Banton Declaration essentially the

306
00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:03,280
Speaker 3: similar kind of uh shutting down a debate around how widespread.

307
00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:04,440
Speaker 4: The virus actually was with the seral prevalence.

308
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,600
Speaker 3: By the way, there's now one hundred of more of

309
00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,880
Speaker 3: these studies that found basically the same thing, like a huge,

310
00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:14,440
Speaker 3: a very large fraction of cases that infections not identified

311
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,160
Speaker 3: and the disease more widespread than realized. And that's been

312
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,600
Speaker 3: TRIA said from the beginning of the epidemic. So they

313
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:23,600
Speaker 3: had to shut that debate down in order to get

314
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,880
Speaker 3: the policy through, because if that policy was subject to

315
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:31,000
Speaker 3: cold reason, no one would have gone for it. Instead,

316
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,360
Speaker 3: they relied on panicking the population to generate support for

317
00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 3: a policy that has been utterly destructive.

318
00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,400
Speaker 1: Quick commercial break more with doctor j Baticharia on the

319
00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,920
Speaker 1: other side, where do you think we would be today

320
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,440
Speaker 1: if we had followed the Great Barrington Declaration and protected

321
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 1: the elderly and essentially allowed the rest of society to

322
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 1: go back to life.

323
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,480
Speaker 3: I think we've had many, many, many fewer deaths from

324
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,320
Speaker 3: the virus itself because we would have we would have

325
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,240
Speaker 3: protected it better, protected the elderly. I don't think there

326
00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,120
Speaker 3: would have been zero desk because this is a terrible

327
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,680
Speaker 3: virus and it's really hard to stop. But we managed

328
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,080
Speaker 3: to protect the laptop class. That was the policy followed.

329
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,200
Speaker 3: We shielded the laptop class. We could instead have thought

330
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,880
Speaker 3: to ours, have thought about how best to protect the

331
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,600
Speaker 3: actually vulnerable, so we would have had many fewer deaths

332
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,520
Speaker 3: from the virus. We actually might have even had less

333
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,320
Speaker 3: of this viral evolution. And then the other thing that

334
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,280
Speaker 3: we would have had is we would have had an

335
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:33,280
Speaker 3: enormously uh less damage from the lockdown arms. Right, kids

336
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,480
Speaker 3: would have spent the last year and a half year

337
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:40,200
Speaker 3: year and some in school rather than quote learning from home,

338
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,040
Speaker 3: as if it's really possible to do that. So kids

339
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,760
Speaker 3: would be leading better lives as a result of it,

340
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,000
Speaker 3: and by the way, that will have long term impacts

341
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,320
Speaker 3: that we have kids that can't read. We have kids

342
00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:55,240
Speaker 3: that's going to collapse in in learning that had long term.

343
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 4: Impacts of the lives.

344
00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:00,040
Speaker 3: It took just tragic increase in depression and anxiety and

345
00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:01,800
Speaker 3: kids and young adults.

346
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:03,680
Speaker 4: We would have avoided all of that.

347
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,640
Speaker 3: We would have avoided that. There's now, I mean, there's

348
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,080
Speaker 3: data that show that tens of millions of people around

349
00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,520
Speaker 3: the world are starving as a consequence of these lockdowns,

350
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:13,719
Speaker 3: tens of millions.

351
00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:15,320
Speaker 4: You know, because you do.

352
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,239
Speaker 3: You have a country, a poor country, many people on

353
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,640
Speaker 3: the verge of poverty. They restructured their economies to fit

354
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:23,879
Speaker 3: into the global economy over the last twenty years, lifting

355
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,960
Speaker 3: a billion people have of poverty over twenty years. Overnight.

356
00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,719
Speaker 3: We were nag on those promises, and as a result,

357
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:33,120
Speaker 3: tens of millions of people their income drops below one

358
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,000
Speaker 3: two to two dollars a day and they starve. And

359
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,240
Speaker 3: that's exactly what's happened. Those those lives would have been saved.

360
00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,879
Speaker 3: Hundreds of thousands children in South Asia, according to report

361
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,560
Speaker 3: and by the UN and Marshes this year, have already

362
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,639
Speaker 3: starved to death. Right, So you have all that collateral

363
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,639
Speaker 3: harm that's going to have consequences for a decade avoided

364
00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,360
Speaker 3: if we follow the Great Brandon decoration.

365
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,679
Speaker 1: You talked about the evolution of the virus or the

366
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,640
Speaker 1: vaccines to blame for that. I've seen the argument made

367
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 1: that we have leaky vaccines that don't provide immunity, don't

368
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,359
Speaker 1: stop transmission, and therefore or you know, have led to

369
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,719
Speaker 1: this new variant of omicron.

370
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:16,520
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on that.

371
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,560
Speaker 3: I mean, the evolution of the virus is hard to predict,

372
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 3: but it responds to the environment that it sees, right, So,

373
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 3: the virus when you have a vaccinated population there it

374
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,959
Speaker 3: creates an ecological niche where a varying to the virus

375
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,480
Speaker 3: that can infect the vaccinated is more likely to succeed

376
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,800
Speaker 3: in sort of replicating itself. So it wouldn't be surprising

377
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 3: that to me to find a widespread vaccination with a

378
00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,639
Speaker 3: vaccine that doesn't stop disease spread could have contributed to

379
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:54,280
Speaker 3: this evolutionary process and moved the viral evolution along a

380
00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,320
Speaker 3: certain line. If we followed the Great Printed equation, the

381
00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,960
Speaker 3: pandemic would it over earlier because what would happen is

382
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:05,440
Speaker 3: is that through normal activity, younger populations would have had

383
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:07,880
Speaker 3: more exposure to the virus. Is just I mean, that's

384
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,280
Speaker 3: just a normal way. But because the harm to younger

385
00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,280
Speaker 3: people from being exposed to the virus is so much

386
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 3: lower than the old they would have died at much

387
00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,000
Speaker 3: lower rates and they wouldn't have been exposed to the

388
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 3: lockdown harms, and so that's would have been benefited from

389
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:25,000
Speaker 3: from the policy. It's hard to say exactly with any

390
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,160
Speaker 3: kind of precision, because you have to play this game

391
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,439
Speaker 3: of like what if, and play the game of what

392
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,160
Speaker 3: evolution would have looked like had we.

393
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 4: Gone down a different path.

394
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,000
Speaker 3: But it is clear that the policy itself, both of

395
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,960
Speaker 3: the vaccination and also the lockdowns, changed the path of

396
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:39,760
Speaker 3: viral evolution.

397
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,000
Speaker 1: Well, and what's interesting is there used to be this

398
00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,320
Speaker 1: game of oh, it's the unvaccinated's fault, you know, these dirty,

399
00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,240
Speaker 1: unvaccinated people. And now that you have vaccinated and even

400
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 1: people who are just recently boosted to get it, you know,

401
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,879
Speaker 1: now it's, oh, it's no one's fault, it's you know,

402
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 1: the dynamics and the conversation have completely changed surrounding COVID

403
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 1: now that we're saying that the vaccines aren't protecting people

404
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 1: from getting COVID at this current moment.

405
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's unfortunate. We should never have come

406
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 3: to a point where public health who is promoting the

407
00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 3: idea that it's somebody's fault to get sick. We don't

408
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,440
Speaker 3: make you feel guilty for being sick. That is bad medicine,

409
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,159
Speaker 3: and that's about bad public help. What we do is

410
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,480
Speaker 3: we treat people who get sick with compassion. That's the

411
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,639
Speaker 3: right way to message around it. And if we have

412
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,760
Speaker 3: a messaging strategy, it leads people to believe that anyone

413
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:30,879
Speaker 3: who gets sick is somehow lesser or somehow that hasn't

414
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,560
Speaker 3: been careful or is I mean especially other That is

415
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 3: bad public health. And that's clearly what's happened in the last

416
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 3: two years. And so now to see a reversion to

417
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:40,800
Speaker 3: that and say, well, it's not your fault you got

418
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 3: sick as soon as the laptop class starts getting sick,

419
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,320
Speaker 3: I just it's frustrating. I mean, of course it is true.

420
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 3: That is the laptop class is not stop their fault

421
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 3: for getting sick. This is a vexious virus that spreads

422
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 3: very easily and so it's very hard to hard to

423
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,959
Speaker 3: protect yourself from it. So it's not their fault, but

424
00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,240
Speaker 3: it does strike me is curious that now we're finally

425
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 3: getting that message from public health, and we should have

426
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 3: been getting that message all along. Really, there's been this

427
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,399
Speaker 3: illusion of control over the spread of the virus that's

428
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,439
Speaker 3: said this. We somehow spread the idea around that if

429
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,200
Speaker 3: we were we were just good enough, obeyed the rules

430
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 3: hard enough, we can protect ourselves.

431
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,360
Speaker 4: And others from the virus. But that was a lie.

432
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,320
Speaker 3: There was no technology we possessed or possessed currently to

433
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 3: stop the spread of this virus, and it's not anybody's

434
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 3: fault forgetting it.

435
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 1: I guess what I'm trying to figure out is we

436
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 1: keep hearing this argument of Okay, so we know that

437
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 1: the vaccines aren't stopping transmission. That's evident when you have

438
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 1: people like Elizabeth Warren Corey Booker who said they were

439
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 1: just recently boosted, you know, having recently gotten COVID. But

440
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 1: so we keep hearing this argument that it's still you

441
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,040
Speaker 1: still need to get it because it's still protecting people,

442
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 1: it's keeping people out of hospitals. But what evidence do

443
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,439
Speaker 1: we have that it's doing that when we're also just

444
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 1: seeing the natural evolution of a virus, which my understanding

445
00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 1: is it tends to lead to where it becomes more

446
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 1: dismissible but less lethal as it continues to evolve. So

447
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,159
Speaker 1: how do we know it's the vaccines keeping people out

448
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: of the hospital versus just the virus inevitably taking the

449
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 1: course of being more transmissible and less lethal.

450
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 3: So it could be both, right, so think I think,

451
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 3: for instance, at least with the delta version of the virus,

452
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 3: there were some very good studies out of places like

453
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:27,120
Speaker 3: katar out of Sweden, out of the UK, even out

454
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 3: of Kaiser in northern California that showed based on matched cohorts.

455
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 4: Of vaccinated and unvaccinated people.

456
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 3: Where they carefully follow them over time, that showed that

457
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 3: vaccine efficacy against severe disease actually stayed quite high up

458
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,439
Speaker 3: to six seven eight months after vaccination. There was a

459
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 3: Swedish study suggested that at the end of eight months

460
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 3: it starts to decline pretty sharply, but for quite a

461
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 3: long time it protects against severe disease, even as the

462
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:59,239
Speaker 3: protection against against being infected declines pretty sharply after two

463
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 3: three months. So I think really on the basis of

464
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 3: those studies that people believe, at least I believe that

465
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 3: there's it protects against severe disease, at least against delta.

466
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,640
Speaker 3: The evidence about omicron, this new variant seems to suggest

467
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,399
Speaker 3: that it is much milder. The disease itself is much milder,

468
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 3: and both vaccinated and unvaccinated, that is much less likely

469
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 3: to produce hospitalizations, much less likely to kill you. I mean,

470
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 3: I know, I've heard this general dictum that virus attended

471
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 3: to go all toward milder, that I don't know that

472
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 3: that's always true, but with the case of omicron, it

473
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 3: certainly has turned out to be true.

474
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 4: Which is I mean, a great blessing.

475
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, because I guess I'm just observing in

476
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 1: a more immediate circle. But I know a lot of

477
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 1: people who have recently gotten COVID, you know, many vaccinated,

478
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: small handful not, and it seems like everyone's symptoms have

479
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,359
Speaker 1: ultimately been the same, regardless of having been vaccinated or not.

480
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: So I just I don't know, I just wonder it's

481
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: you know, again back to our original conversation of when

482
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 1: it's sort of this group think narrative being told, it's

483
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: really hard to know what is true and what is not,

484
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: which is why I've been bringing people like you or

485
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 1: doctor Atlas or doctor Martin Kolder, if on the show,

486
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: who have been honest and have been unbiased in your

487
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 1: explanation of all this stuff, because we're really living at

488
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: this time where it's very difficult to discern between truth

489
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 1: and lies.

490
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think the problem is actually comes

491
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 3: back to this propaganda campaign where we're talking about earlier.

492
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 4: If you have at the.

493
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 3: Commanding heights of science people who do not respect open

494
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 3: scientific discussion, the first instinct when they're challenged is to

495
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 3: shut that down. You're going to create this distrust and

496
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 3: that is something that we absolutely have to work to address.

497
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 3: As as I said, I think science is a beautiful thing.

498
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 3: It's wonderful. It's wonderful as produced. So much knowledge has

499
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 3: been useful for human for people. But that can only

500
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 3: work when you have the scientific process, the working way

501
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 3: should It's not a high priesthood. It's a discussion, an open,

502
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 3: structured discussion. The lack of trust that many, many, many

503
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,719
Speaker 3: people have in public health and in science is fully

504
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 3: earned by the public health establishment, by the scientific establishment.

505
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 3: It's brought brought that distrust on itself by not actually

506
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 3: following the principles of public health and in in lockdowns,

507
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 3: by not following the principles of how science actually should operate.

508
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 4: In terms of how the NIH and and others other

509
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 4: entities that have seen them.

510
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,680
Speaker 3: Funding sciences operated, It's led to this sort of uh uh,

511
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 3: the situation where we see that science can produce so

512
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 3: many wonderful things and certainly improve our knowledge about how

513
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 3: the way the world works. But at the same time,

514
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 3: it's it's created a class of class of people that

515
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 3: just there's no reason to trust them, but based on

516
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 3: the way they behaved. I sympathize with a lot of

517
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 3: folks about the inability to tell what's what's true and false,

518
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 3: because you know, in the middle of a propaganda war,

519
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 3: that's exactly what ends up happening. Uh, it's we should

520
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 3: have a propaganda warrior. We should have as an open

521
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 3: scientific discussion.

522
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: So when and.

523
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: How did this claim that the vaccines would stop transmission begin?

524
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: Because you can go back to the Pfizer's chairman's comments

525
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: last December on Dateline he said he wasn't sure the

526
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: vaccine would stop transmission. You can also look at maderna

527
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,239
Speaker 1: chief medical officer told Axio's last November that we need

528
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: to be careful to not overinterpret the vaccines because we

529
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: didn't have sufficient concrete data showing that the vaccines would

530
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: reduce transmission. But then lo and behold, we had people

531
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,199
Speaker 1: like doctor Fauci, we had the CDC director, you had

532
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: Joe Biden saying, hey, look, if you go out, you

533
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: get vaccinated, you're not going to get COVID. How did

534
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: that narrative take fold when you even have the heads

535
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: of these companies a year ago warning for that to

536
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: not happen.

537
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,640
Speaker 3: I mean, I was like a matter of full confession,

538
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 3: I should say I thought in January this year that

539
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 3: the vaccines would greatly reduce transmission. On the basis of

540
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 3: that was the trials that the demand andized trials of

541
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 3: the vaccines. The points of those trials were actually symptomatic COVID.

542
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 3: And my reasoning was that if in fact the vaccines

543
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 3: do reduce the risk of symptomatic COVID, which is what

544
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 3: the trials did show, at least for a few months

545
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 3: after the vaccine, well, then symptomatic people are much more

546
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,639
Speaker 3: likely to pass the disease on than someone who's not

547
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 3: asymptomatic disease. So if you prevent symptomatic disease, it's a factor.

548
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 3: Are you're going to prevent trends or reduce transmission. That's

549
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 3: what I thought in January this year. Then the data

550
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 3: started coming out that that protection against symptomatic disease didn't

551
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 3: last very long, maybe two three months, you know. I

552
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 3: started to see like there were countries that we had

553
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: big outbreaks despite having very highly vaccinated populations, you know,

554
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 3: in let's say, like March April May, and it became

555
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 3: clear that the protection against infection was short lived. And

556
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 3: I changed my opinion on this based on those data

557
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 3: that came out. I don't know why Joe Biden or

558
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 3: Fausci and others didn't change their opinion also based on

559
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 3: those data. They stop. I think partly they were thinking

560
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 3: that in order to induce people to get vaccinated, you

561
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 3: can't tell them that you could get the disease anyways,

562
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,439
Speaker 3: because that would decrease the demand for the vaccine. But

563
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 3: I think I have the opposite idea. You tell people

564
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 3: the truth based on what the data are showing you,

565
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 3: and you tell people, Look, I changed my mind when

566
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 3: the data. Here's the data on which I changed my mind,

567
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 3: And here's why I thought what I did before, and

568
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 3: here's why I think what I did. Now, I think

569
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 3: people are going to trust you more, and what actually

570
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 3: increase demand for the vaccines, because what it would happen

571
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 3: is people say, well, yeah, okay, this person is telling me, well,

572
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 3: the data show they've changed their minds based on the data,

573
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 3: and they're also telling me that protects against severe disease,

574
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 3: which I still think it does for at least eight months.

575
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 3: Like I think that's how you build trust is by

576
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 3: being honest when you get something wrong, follow the data,

577
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 3: and then tell and then reason with the public like

578
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 3: their adults, rather than trying to manipulate the public, which

579
00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 3: is essentially how I think Joe Biden and Viz mainly

580
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: I think by Tony Fauchi has done. They like the

581
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 3: vaccine passports and vaccine mandates are a fruit of.

582
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:05,719
Speaker 4: That, right.

583
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 3: They they want these policies in order to course people

584
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 3: to get the vaccine. At risk of losing your job,

585
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 3: at risk of being able to go to restaurants, to

586
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: public libraries, you know, to museums, you name it, you

587
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 3: can't have, you can't participate in civic life unless you

588
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 3: get the vaccine in order to coerce people to get it,

589
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 3: rather than reasoning with people about the vaccine, say well,

590
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 3: here's here's here's who is specially important for. Here's what

591
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 3: the side effects are for this group, and it's much

592
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 3: less for that group. And just and just showing openly

593
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 3: and honestly what the data are. I think that breeds trust,

594
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 3: and that trust helps people feel more comfortable doing the

595
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 3: right thing for them.

596
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: Well, and I figure right in the sense of like,

597
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: you know, you just earned my trust more by saying, hey,

598
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: you know back in January, this is what I thought,

599
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: here's why. And I think if they were just honest

600
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: with people and saying, hey, look that's what we thought

601
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: at the time, and then Delta came along, and then

602
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, we're looking at us studies out

603
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: of you know, Provincetown, Massachusetts, where you know, an outbreak

604
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: took place in seventy five percent of the cases we're

605
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,239
Speaker 1: fully vaccinated. Now those dynamics have, you know, if they

606
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: were just honest. But the problem is, and then they

607
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: just keep pushing forward with these failed strategies. I mean, like, so,

608
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: for instance, we're all staying with our own eyes that

609
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: the vaccine is not stopping transmission. Right, We're seeing people

610
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: left and right get omicron vaccinated or not, it doesn't

611
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: seem to matter at all. But yet then you've got

612
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: new cities like Boston saying you have to be vaccinated

613
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: to live among society here, or Chicago, and it's like why,

614
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 1: like what what is it actually doing to protect society

615
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: when it's not stopping transmission whatsoever? Like what's the point

616
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: of vaccine mandates right now when it doesn't stop transmission?

617
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: I just I don't understand it. It makes no sense

618
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: to me, You're.

619
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 3: Right, can I don't understand that there is no point

620
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 3: to it other than to create social division and ostracism.

621
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I think if you'd ask some

622
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 3: a proponent that probably says, well, we want to coerce

623
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 3: people into getting the vaccine, like they're being honest, when

624
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 3: that policy induces such enormous social division, like people have

625
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 3: lost their jobs because they don't want to get vaccinated

626
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 3: for whatever reason. You know, it's at this point the

627
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 3: vaccine is very clear is a private decision, like it

628
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 3: has private consequence of that person that's vaccinated in the

629
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 3: sense of protecting against severe disease.

630
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 4: That's according to my view of the data.

631
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 3: But very little in the way of public public like

632
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 3: so my vaccine actually doesn't protect you very much if

633
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 3: I don't, if it doesn't stop me from getting effected.

634
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 3: Vaccinated people can and do spread the disease. And in fact,

635
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 3: if you're in a group of unvaccinated people and all

636
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 3: of them are COVID recovered, well that natural immunity is

637
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 3: quite good against reinfection. They're great data from places again

638
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 3: like Israel and catarisuitede in Denmark that at one year

639
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 3: there's only a point three percent reinfection rate or the

640
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 3: summer two point three one percent, a very very low

641
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: rate of reinfection in one year if you're nationally means

642
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 3: it might actually be the case if you're among a

643
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 3: group of unvaccinated COVID or covered people, that you have

644
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 3: less risk of getting disease issued in a group of

645
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 3: vaccinated people who had the vaccine, you know several months ago.

646
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: Quick commercial break morebrit doctor Jay Baticharia on the other side.

647
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: But first I want to tell you a little bit

648
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: about Saber, because every twenty five seconds a break in occurs. Now,

649
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: are you ready to protect your home and your family.

650
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 1: You've heard us talk about Sabers home defense launchers, the

651
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: ultimate choice for protecting what matters most. But this week

652
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: you can secure the Saber Mega Bundle for twenty five

653
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: percent off a two hundred and forty dollars value for

654
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: only one hundred and seventy nine dollars ninety nine cents.

655
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: Saber's Best Bundle equips you with life saving stopping power

656
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: to defend your family, including a Saber launcher, two seven

657
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: round magazines, fourteen pepper rounds, twenty eight practice rounds, a

658
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: practice target c you, two car mearchridges, and a carry case.

659
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: So why choose Saber Because their projectiles pack a serious punch,

660
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: causing intense pain with direct contact, and even if you miss,

661
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: Saber creates a seven foot pepper cloud upon impact, causing

662
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: intense censory irritation for anyone within its reach. And Saber

663
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 1: is the only sixty eight caliber launcher with a seven

664
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: projectile capacity, delivering up to forty percent more stopping power

665
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: than the other brands. So at now protect yourself and

666
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: your family and save twenty five percent. Visit saberradio dot com.

667
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: That's Sabre radio dot com or call eight four four

668
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: eight two four Safe Today. Offer ends December second. So

669
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: South Africa just recently, you know they saw this amicron

670
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: wave hit first. Now it's subsiding. They've actually stopped contact

671
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,520
Speaker 1: tracing quarantining. They've sort of changed their policy now that

672
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: eighty percent of the country has some level of the

673
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: immunity from either prior illness or vaccines. What do you

674
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: think omicron will do to the United States in terms

675
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: of reaching endemic status heard immunity in the sense of,

676
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: you know, it seems like this thing is just so contagious,

677
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: the incubation period is so short that so many people

678
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: in the country are ultimately going to get this thing.

679
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the illusion that you can protect yourself

680
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 3: from getting the virus if you just are careful enough,

681
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:33,399
Speaker 3: that's already on its way of being shattered. Right, We've

682
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 3: seen this enormous seasonal wave and omicron I think is

683
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 3: just fueled that throughout the Northeast and throughout much of

684
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 3: the United States.

685
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 4: Actually, that is I.

686
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 3: Think inevitable because again we don't have a technology from

687
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 3: stopping it. In South Africa, what it's done is it's actually,

688
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 3: I mean interestingly reduced the fear about the virus because

689
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 3: the consequences of getting at omicron and it seems to

690
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 3: be much lower, right, much lower risk of death, much

691
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 3: lower risk in hospitalization. And the end point then is

692
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 3: of i say, decoupling of cases from hospitalizations and death,

693
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 3: like in many previous ways, especially in twenty twenty, whenever

694
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 3: cases went out, hospitalizations and death followed sort of like

695
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,959
Speaker 3: night follows day in the vaccine era in mid twenty

696
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 3: twenty one, actually in many countries there was already this decoupling,

697
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 3: like when the vaccine was used to protect the old,

698
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 3: so that even if the old got it, they would

699
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 3: not go be hospitalized or die. You'd see a very increase,

700
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 3: sharp increase in cases with no concommitment increase in death

701
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 3: or hospitalizations. You saw that in the UK, for instance,

702
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,800
Speaker 3: you saw that in Sweden for instance, saw that in Iceland.

703
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 3: Actually now with Omicron you're seeing that basically South Africa

704
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 3: a huge increase in cases with no real increase in death,

705
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: and that's in the population that's not particularly well vaccinated.

706
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 3: I think the same as like be true as omicrons

707
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 3: president of the US, they'll be decoupling of cases and deaths,

708
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 3: and that decoupling really is the end state. The cases.

709
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 3: We can't stop. The cases will continue forever in waves,

710
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 3: seasonal or regional waves, but it will no longer produce

711
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 3: the deaths that it once did.

712
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: Are we an endemic status now as a country or

713
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: where do you think we are in terms of is

714
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: it still a pandemic or is an endemic now?

715
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 3: It's hard to stay biologically exactly. I mean, so endemic

716
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 3: what it means is heard immunity. What it means is

717
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 3: every additional person infected infects one or fewer people. In

718
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 3: that sense, we're not in hurt immunity because the number

719
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 3: of cases is rising, so each additional person infected. But

720
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 3: in a different sense, the pandemic could be over as

721
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 3: soon as we decide it's over. The pandemic really is

722
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 3: in some sense is the set of responses we've taken

723
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 3: to the biological fact of the spread of the virus.

724
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 3: The herd immunity means that they're sufficiently large factions of

725
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 3: the population that that isn't it isn't at risk of

726
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 3: spreading the disease very very sharply if they were to

727
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: be exposed, because if they're supposed to it, they.

728
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 4: Don't get it.

729
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 3: With a virus like this one, you can move in

730
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 3: and out of herd immunity, right, you can get you

731
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 3: can be protected against infection for a while, and then

732
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 3: your immunity declines over time against against infection, and so

733
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 3: you get it again. The common cold is like this, right,

734
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 3: there's herd immunity for common cold. Your protection against the

735
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 3: declines over time, and then you might be exposed to

736
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 3: us to like another corner that's the same coronavirus that before,

737
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 3: and then you get it again several times in your life.

738
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 3: But the second, third, fourth time that doesn't produce severe

739
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 3: disease because you have immune mechanisms cellular immunity and other

740
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 3: mechanisms of immunity that reduce the harm from being infected,

741
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 3: reduced it so you don't you don't end up in

742
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 3: the hospital. You don't die if you get it. It's

743
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,360
Speaker 3: just a cold, that is I think. I think the

744
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 3: endpoint is epidemic herd immunity and demic equlibrium.

745
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 4: What it means.

746
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 3: All that means is is that the virus isn't spreading

747
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 3: sharply because it's officially a number of mune. People have

748
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 3: that for times. But the key thing is not that.

749
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,919
Speaker 3: The key thing is the protection against severe disease, which

750
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 3: who I think we are in the midst of getting

751
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 3: naturally immune people seem to have a lot of protection

752
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,399
Speaker 3: against severe reinfections, and I think, you know, I think

753
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 3: that that's the direction we're head of, this, this decoupling

754
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 3: of cases and severe outcomes.

755
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 2: Do you think we.

756
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: Should be more careful in our vaccination status in the

757
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,800
Speaker 1: sense I mean, we are seeing myocarditis and heart issues,

758
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 1: you know, correlated to the vaccines, particularly among younger people

759
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,240
Speaker 1: who aren't as susceptible to ending up in the hospital

760
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: or dying. I mean, should there be a little bit

761
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: more transparency in honesty around some of those conversations and

762
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: the potential adverse effects of the vaccines on certain groups

763
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: of people.

764
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Right, I think the vaccination should be a personal

765
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 3: medical decision based on the the risks of the vaccine

766
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 3: to the person in that group and the benefits.

767
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 4: Of vaccines for that group. Right.

768
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 3: So, a young male who is COVID recovered, is there

769
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 3: any reason to vaccinate them? They face the risk of

770
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 3: minocrat it is from the vaccine, which is, you know,

771
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 3: it's not it's enormous, but it's like it's you know,

772
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 3: one in five thousand and one something on that order

773
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 3: versus where but the benefit they get is so little

774
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 3: because they're already COVID recovered, where as an older person

775
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 3: who's not been exposed to the virus previously faces a

776
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 3: high risk of death or or or you know high

777
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 3: meaning like three, four or five percent of death that

778
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,879
Speaker 3: they were to get affected, the vaccine might be quite

779
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 3: a good idea. So it really depends on who you are,

780
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 3: your medical circumstances. It should be a personal medical decision

781
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,919
Speaker 3: you make in consultation with your physician, not something that's

782
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 3: forced on you by public health and in the way

783
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 3: it has been.

784
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: But do you think physicians are up to that task

785
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: in the sense of I have found in conversations with

786
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 1: a lot of different people that some doctors actually don't

787
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: seem to have as full of knowledge of like data

788
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: and the bigger picture of things.

789
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 2: Like someone one time.

790
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 1: Was like, well, Trump got the vaccine to me because

791
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 1: I made the decision to not get the vaccine, and

792
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 1: the only reason I was vocal with it as I

793
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 1: felt like someone like me can take bullets more easily

794
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: than someone getting fired for making the same decision that

795
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 1: doesn't have the platform that I have. So I decided

796
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: to go out publicly and try, you know, I wrote

797
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: that op ed and Newsweek really trying to articulate the

798
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 1: fact that people are making the decision aren't rubes, like

799
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,359
Speaker 1: they've actually really thought through this, and it doesn't make

800
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 1: sense for them personally, whether they're young and healthy such

801
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: as myself, or they have prior you know, immunity, right,

802
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 1: And so that's why I went out and did that.

803
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: But you know, I had a doctor one time and

804
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: be like, well, you know, Trump got vaccinated, and I'm like, well,

805
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: he's like seventy five, and you know, his health condition

806
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 1: is entirely different than mine.

807
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 2: You know, he probably is a little.

808
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: Overweight, he's much older than me, so his risk is

809
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 1: severely higher than mine.

810
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 2: So that doesn't even make sense. So I don't know.

811
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,759
Speaker 1: I mean, our doctors really up to that task in

812
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 1: the sense a lot of them really haven't gone through

813
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 1: the data in the same way.

814
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 2: That you have.

815
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 3: I mean, I think traditionally the way that doctors get

816
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 3: educated about these kinds of data is not by reading

817
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 3: the papers themselves amazingly, but by participating in professional activities

818
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 3: where they get essentially like the summaries of this information

819
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 3: put to them. Right, these things called continuing medical education

820
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 3: credits that every doctor is supposed to get so that

821
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 3: they are always learning. The way that the discussion about

822
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 3: the vaccines and about sort of how to think about

823
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 3: national immunity has been spread through the medical community has

824
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 3: been really lacking in my view. A lot of the

825
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 3: educational activities have emphasized the importance of the vaccination without

826
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 3: talking through the nuances about who it's really useful for,

827
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 3: what the side effect profiles are, and it's been in

828
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 3: service a public health gould who get everyone vaccinated rather

829
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 3: than a personal health goal to make sure that the

830
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 3: doctor is getting you the best possible advice for your

831
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 3: own personal health circumstance. I think if we shift back

832
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 3: to a normal footing where doctors are looking out for

833
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 3: their patients as opposed to playing the part of public

834
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 3: health enforces for the population at large, we will have

835
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 3: doctors giving good, reasonable advice again, but it has to

836
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 3: be a decision made by public health authorities. Places like

837
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 3: the ANIH play an enormously important role in that. So

838
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 3: when it's led by someone like Francis Collins or Tony Fauci,

839
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 3: who have essentially an ideological almost seems commitment to making

840
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 3: forcing everyone, no matter what the harm to society, to

841
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 3: get the vaccine, regardless of whether they consent to it

842
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 3: or not. You're going to get this distrust not just

843
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 3: the public health, but in doctors as well. And what

844
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 3: you said is right.

845
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 4: I mean, I think a lot of people.

846
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 3: Have lost trust with their doctors as a result. Again,

847
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 3: I don't think that's a good thing least I think

848
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 3: that doctors. It's really necessary that we be able to

849
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 3: trust our doctors because doctors are so important for the

850
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 3: health of personal health.

851
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 4: And for the health of population at large.

852
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 3: And I think medicine is going to need to do

853
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 3: some self reflection to try to get that trust back.

854
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 1: Me because I've been fortunate to you know, I've reached

855
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 1: out to a ton of different people involve different walks

856
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: of life in the medical and science fields to try

857
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 1: to get information for them and to try to learn

858
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: that way, because you know, that's how we all learn

859
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: the most, is by asking a bunch of questions and

860
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: then trying to take that information from people and trying

861
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: to come to, you know, what I think is the

862
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: correct information or the right decision with all of that,

863
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:39,919
Speaker 1: which is how I, you know, concluded to not get

864
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: the vaccine of also just having questions about you know,

865
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: most vaccines we've got like five to ten years of data.

866
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: We don't have that for these and so if I'm

867
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: not higher risk, I'd rather just wait it out and

868
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: see what we, you know, learn from it moving forward,

869
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: you know, versus obviously higher risk people might not be

870
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: able to make that same decision because they're.

871
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 2: More at risk.

872
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 1: But we're just at this such an odd place in

873
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: society where it's just, you know, the truth really isn't

874
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: out there as much.

875
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 4: You know.

876
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: Doctor Scott Atlas had said something when I interviewed him

877
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: recently that really stood out to me, and he had

878
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,919
Speaker 1: just talked about sort of the profound impact that even

879
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: the NIH has on science and the fact that so

880
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: much of science is funded by the NIH and the

881
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: United States and some of these other agencies, and so

882
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: therefore it really dictates sort of the broader landscape of

883
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: science and the conversations that we're having. Can you just

884
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: talk about the funding aspect of it and how that

885
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: is controlled by some of these government agencies and the

886
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 1: problem of that.

887
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 3: Sure, So I've spent my career at a medical school,

888
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 3: at academic medical school in order to advance your career

889
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 3: in a place like Stanford, university, in the medical school,

890
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 3: you have to have NIH funding. It's almost a requirement, right.

891
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 3: It's just a marker of success as a scientist that

892
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 3: you are able to garner funding from competitive funding from

893
00:44:58,400 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 3: the IH.

894
00:44:58,960 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 4: Like every time I.

895
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 3: Put a grand and band application and I think it's like,

896
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 3: you know, in one in ten or one in one

897
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:10,720
Speaker 3: in fifteen grants actually get funded. So it's a great success.

898
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 4: If you managed to do that.

899
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 3: Now, the problem is that with that is that it's

900
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 3: creates these incentives that you have to align your research

901
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 3: agenda with the NIH. And sometimes that's reasonable. The NIH

902
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 3: may direct scientists toward studying something like Alzheimer's because it's

903
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 3: such a serious problem for so many and putting a

904
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 3: lot of scientists minds focused on that one problem could

905
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 3: be a very productive thing, but can also, as we

906
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 3: found through the epidemic, be a danger. So you get

907
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 3: one person, Tony Fauci, who's been sitting on top of

908
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 3: a huge pile of money, funding the careers and making

909
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 3: and breaking the careers of countless scientists over forty years

910
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 3: based on his priorities for what effects of these research

911
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 3: focus on? What epidemiologists focus on, Well, you know, a

912
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 3: lot of scientists stayed silent even though they were uncomfortable

913
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 3: with the policies in the lockdown, because they didn't want

914
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 3: to risk not getting funded by Tony fauchiz an IAID.

915
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 3: When Francis Collins, the head of the NIH, essentially says

916
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 3: these great brand and decoration people really are terrible. We

917
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 3: should wager propaganda war against them. Well, no one know

918
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 3: scientists who's thinking about their career, unless they're very brave

919
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,839
Speaker 3: or very foolish, is going to speak up and say, look,

920
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 3: this is these lockdowns a really bad idea. I agree

921
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 3: with the Great Branching equation, Very very few scientists will

922
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 3: want to do that at risk of their career. I mean,

923
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 3: I can understand why, right it's they're working on things

924
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 3: that are remote from COVID or the Great Branding Equation.

925
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:46,839
Speaker 3: They just there's no reason for them to speak up,

926
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,439
Speaker 3: to stick their neck out, and so they won't even

927
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 3: if they probably should. So what you have is a

928
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 3: situation where a legitimate rule for NIH is to help

929
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 3: direct the attention of scientists on important problems. But we've

930
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 3: seen the leadership of the NIH, including Collins and Fauci,

931
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 3: then use that legitimate power illegitimately to essentially silence scientific discussion,

932
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 3: and it's undermined trust in science, it's undermine trust in

933
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,400
Speaker 3: public health, and as you just talked about, it undermine

934
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 3: trust in medicine. Had enormous negative consequences for institutions that

935
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 3: I think most Americans before the pandemic had a lot

936
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 3: of respect for.

937
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: Is that self preservation because obviously there's been concerns that

938
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: the NIH funding went to, you know, the funding of

939
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: back coronaviruses and that research at the Wuhan Laboratory. I mean,

940
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: is it self preservation from doctor Fauci or why has

941
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: he adopted this approach?

942
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 2: Like what's behind it? In your estimation, I.

943
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 3: Don't know whether it was lovely, But what I do

944
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:58,439
Speaker 3: know is that the NIH, with the explicit sign off

945
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 3: of Fauci and Collins, funded gain of function research that

946
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 3: was incredibly controversial. So in twenty fourteen there was actually

947
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 3: a pause put on gain of function research because there

948
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 3: was a paper where someone had published in Science funded

949
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 3: by the aniagent part that had managed to take an

950
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 3: av and flu virus and make it able to infect

951
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 3: human self.

952
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 4: People were very very upset by this.

953
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 3: The argument for why they did this was, well, we

954
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 3: need to find out how many mutations it would take

955
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 3: in order for this av and flu virus to mutate

956
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 3: so that it could affect humans. It turns out it

957
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 3: wasn't that many.

958
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:36,720
Speaker 4: So they're like, oh, well, we have to be prepared

959
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 4: for this.

960
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 3: But at the same time people were worried what if

961
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 3: it could be a lab leak. Lots and lots of

962
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 3: examples of labliks that have happened dangerous ones, and so

963
00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 3: there was a pause put on this where in order

964
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 3: to do research that involved this gain of function work.

965
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 3: Gain of function meaning you take a virus and give

966
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 3: it new capabilities that didn't previously have, you needed to

967
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 3: get explicit sign off from Tony Fauci and from Francis Collins,

968
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 3: and they signed off a whole bunch of grants from

969
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 3: twenty fifty to fourteen on despite the pause, and so

970
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 3: they bear responsibility for the funding, and including by the way,

971
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 3: Peter Dazac and the Equal Health Alliance, which cooperated with

972
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 3: the Wuhan Lab very closely, so they funded a lot

973
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 3: of this work. And I don't know for a fact

974
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 3: that that's what's motivating them, because that's frankly retrospect an

975
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 3: embarrassing thing that they did. It was a lapse in judgment,

976
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 3: wasn't a wise use of NIH resources of American tax

977
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:41,240
Speaker 3: paid tax cary dollars. And I mean, it wouldn't surprise

978
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 3: me to know that that this is partly worth motivating them.

979
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 3: I don't think it's all. It can't be all of it,

980
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 3: because why focus on these destructive lockdowns. I think that

981
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 3: partly is just a failure to understand that there were

982
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,320
Speaker 3: alternative policies that were available that would have reduced the

983
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 3: harm for the virus and also from the lockdowns. But

984
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 3: you know, I do think that that this sort of

985
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 3: desire to like make up for this poor judgment that

986
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 3: they had must have played some role. Well.

987
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,439
Speaker 1: I also just think there's a level of arrogance because

988
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: someone had mentioned to me earlier on in the pandemic

989
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: to sort of like explained doctor Fauci to me, is

990
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: this is a guy who flew that a bowl of

991
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: patient from Texas, I think, to the NIH in Maryland

992
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 1: so that he could treat her himself, put on a

993
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: hazmat suit for the cameras, did a bunch of interviews

994
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: when she would have just been fine, like staying in Texas.

995
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: So it was like basically he like did this whole

996
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 1: thing for himself, like you know, so that he could

997
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: like basically be in the glory.

998
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 3: I agree. I mean there's some element of self promotion

999
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 3: in his his in the way he behaves that it's

1000
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 3: unseemly like, frankly, we should we really know the name.

1001
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:47,800
Speaker 4: Of the head of the Nai D.

1002
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:50,600
Speaker 3: I think the head of AID is important position, but

1003
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 3: it shouldn't be someone who's so in the public eye,

1004
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 3: you know.

1005
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: Do you think that part of the problem is so

1006
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: we see this with like politicians very often. Right, You've

1007
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 1: got like all these people, like most of our leaders,

1008
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 1: you know, I mean you don't have to get any

1009
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: like Pelo see even mccon. Like all these guys have

1010
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: been in the public office for like decades, So it's like,

1011
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: how do you solve some of the problems that you've

1012
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: literally been a part of making right? And so do

1013
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,760
Speaker 1: you think some of that is true for these public

1014
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,080
Speaker 1: health bureaucrats in the sense of, you know, they've been

1015
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: in government for so long that they're sort of out

1016
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: of the game or they can't really solve these problems

1017
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: or bring a fresh approach when they've kind of been

1018
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: a part of the problem, or they've been a part

1019
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: of the system for too long. Do we need to

1020
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:30,719
Speaker 1: kind of take a fresh look at bringing in, you know,

1021
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: different voices and different people who have been out in

1022
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: the field a little bit fresher and you know, not

1023
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:37,879
Speaker 1: been bureaucrats.

1024
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 2: For so long.

1025
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:38,439
Speaker 4: I do.

1026
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 3: I think I think that that someone like doctor Fauci,

1027
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 3: who's been in his position at the head of the

1028
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 3: ANID for forty years on that order, something on that order,

1029
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 3: or a thirty thirty five years, I don't know the

1030
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 3: exact number, but some a very very, very long time.

1031
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 3: Just by dint of being in such power for so long,

1032
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,839
Speaker 3: you essentially create this insular sense where where like, you know,

1033
00:51:57,880 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 3: no one's going to talk back to you, no one's

1034
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,640
Speaker 3: going to like tell to contradict you, and you you

1035
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 3: there's this feedback loop where you start to think you're

1036
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 3: always right because no one's contradicting always, everyone's always praising you.

1037
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:13,360
Speaker 3: It's really dangerous for any leader to be in that position,

1038
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 3: right the Greeks, the Romans, when a when a successful

1039
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,320
Speaker 3: Roman general that have this major parade through Rome, that

1040
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 3: have someone that someone whispering in their ear and at

1041
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:26,879
Speaker 3: the head of the parade, everyone's praising him. Look, you're

1042
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 3: only mortal. You're not a god, You're only mortal.

1043
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 4: Right.

1044
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 3: So, I think someone in a position like Tony Fauchi

1045
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 3: for you for such a long time, where he's controlled

1046
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:42,120
Speaker 3: the budgets of and careers of countless incredibly bright scientists,

1047
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 3: all of them are telling especially very strong incentives to

1048
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 3: like to tell him you know.

1049
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 4: That he's doing a good job.

1050
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 3: It's it's a dangerous kind of mixture of power and

1051
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 3: uh science and and and it creates a kind of

1052
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 3: corruption that's really hard to under unless you have essentially

1053
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,720
Speaker 3: term limits or something. I think no one human should

1054
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 3: ever be in that position for so long.

1055
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 1: So you've congratulations on the Academy for Science and Freedom

1056
00:53:10,520 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: with Hillsdale College. You doctor Scott Atlist and doctor Martin

1057
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 1: Coldorf had started this academy. You know, what do you

1058
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: guys hope to accomplish with it? And what are sort

1059
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: of the goals and the objectives with it?

1060
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 3: To me, it's twofold. So I think we've talked a

1061
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 3: lot about it about what's motivated is through this whole conversation.

1062
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 3: So I think the trust in science because of the

1063
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 3: lock the failures in the around the lockdown is at

1064
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 3: a low point, and in particular, the ability for scientists

1065
00:53:38,719 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 3: to talk to one another freely without fear of canceling

1066
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:45,760
Speaker 3: is really harm to discussion in lockdown. That needs reform.

1067
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 3: So one is to restore the ability for scientists to

1068
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 3: be free within science itself, and that may involve reforms

1069
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 3: beyond just the lockdowns themselves, that scientists should be free

1070
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 3: to talk to one another without this sort of propaganda

1071
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 3: of war. Again, the other thing is what role does

1072
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 3: science play in a free society? Science is important, but

1073
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 3: we've had during this pandemic this idea that science ought

1074
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 3: to completely structure all of our civic life. But in

1075
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:20,240
Speaker 3: fact that's not right. Science helps you understand that about

1076
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:21,919
Speaker 3: the way the physical world works.

1077
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:24,359
Speaker 4: If I do a, D might happen, but.

1078
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 3: That doesn't say that I want B to happen. Maybe

1079
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 3: I want C to happen, right, so I'll do D instead,

1080
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 3: which D produces C. Whether you want B or C, Well,

1081
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:38,320
Speaker 3: that's not a scientific question. That that's a question of ethics,

1082
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,600
Speaker 3: of morality, of politics, of a whole bunch of other

1083
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 3: social values that scientists have no special expertise. Science and

1084
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 3: free society is not are not the rulers, the scientists,

1085
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 3: free stud of your advisors and the people who make

1086
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 3: decisions should take that into account. But it doesn't determine

1087
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 3: what's the right thing to do. Is it right to

1088
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 3: adopt a setup policies that mainly protect the laptop class

1089
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 3: at the expense of the working class and the poor

1090
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 3: and the vulnerable. I mean, that's essentially what science said

1091
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,800
Speaker 3: to do. We have to stop the virus and spreading,

1092
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 3: so we adopt.

1093
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,760
Speaker 4: These policies to protect only a certain class of people.

1094
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,080
Speaker 3: Well, is that right? Well, scientists have no monopoly and

1095
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,840
Speaker 3: you should have no monopoly in that discussion in free society.

1096
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 3: And so part of the Academy is to restore the

1097
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 3: proper place of science and a free society and to

1098
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 3: restore the ability for scientists to freely discuss with one another.

1099
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate you guys doing that, And you know,

1100
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 1: you guys have been so brave and have had so

1101
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 1: much courage and really bring truth in a time where

1102
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: it's dire, and you know it's dying and it's needed.

1103
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: You know what, before we go, what should the path

1104
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 1: forward be for the country and how we deal with

1105
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 1: COVID obviously knowing what we know now and knowing what

1106
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 1: we don't know in the future. But right now where

1107
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: we are in this, what should the path forward look like?

1108
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 3: I think a few things. So one, we should vow

1109
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 3: never to disrupt the lives of children ever. Again, we

1110
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:05,880
Speaker 3: should restore normal life to children literally everywhere in the country.

1111
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 3: There's no good reason to think about children as particularly

1112
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,000
Speaker 3: particularly super spreaders, not since the beginning of the epidemic,

1113
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 3: and the harm to them is just immoral. So we

1114
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 3: should end. We should restore normal life to children immediately. Next,

1115
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 3: we should stop a mass asymptomatic testing. Right, we shouldn't

1116
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:27,760
Speaker 3: be forcing people again. I'm in favor of rapid energen

1117
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,760
Speaker 3: tests and other tests that allow people to take charge

1118
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 3: of the risk in their lives. Right, So before you

1119
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 3: go visit Grandma, you want to check you you're positive,

1120
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 3: if that makes some sense to me, So we should

1121
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,239
Speaker 3: allow that to happen, or we should have this, you

1122
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 3: should encourage that. But on the other hand, forced to

1123
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 3: testing and forced vaccination and coercion, that should end immediately

1124
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,439
Speaker 3: because it's not It's produced social division without actually doing much.

1125
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 3: As far as public health benefit. Those two steps would

1126
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 3: go a long way restore for instance, and part of

1127
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 3: that be ending vaccine mandates and ending vaccine passports I

1128
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 3: think would go a long way towards starting to restore

1129
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:08,040
Speaker 3: the trust. Will need to actually address the remaining with

1130
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:09,440
Speaker 3: around this virus.

1131
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,360
Speaker 1: Well, hopefully people adopt that's you know, there seems to

1132
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: be some hope when you've got people like Governor Jared

1133
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: Poulis of a Democrat from Colorado basically saying that you know, hey,

1134
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: the medical emergency phase of all this is over.

1135
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 2: You know, let's kind of move forward with our lives.

1136
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 1: So praying more governors take your advice and we can

1137
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:30,919
Speaker 1: go back to normal. And I just feel like there's

1138
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 1: been so much harm to society even in just this

1139
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: blame game and you know, turning on our neighbors and

1140
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: it just you know, there's just been so much ugliness

1141
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 1: to the past couple of years. So praying people heed

1142
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: your your words of advice. There, Doctor j Batichara, thank

1143
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: you so much for everything you've done. So much respect

1144
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: for you and just appreciate your work and your voice

1145
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: and all this, and thank you so much for your time, sir.

1146
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 2: It's an honor.

1147
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 4: Thank you so it's great to talk with you.

1148
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,320
Speaker 1: I want to thank doctor j Baticharia again for such

1149
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: a great interview and just the honesty. It's so nice

1150
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 1: to have people like him to turn to during all

1151
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:17,120
Speaker 1: this chaos, all the noise, all the craziness. I want

1152
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 1: to thank you guys at home for listening. If you

1153
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: enjoy today's show, please leave us a review. You can

1154
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 1: rate us five stars on Apple Podcast.

1155
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 2: It means a lot.

1156
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook at Lisa

1157
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 1: Rebooth