1 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:09,880 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 2: And I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. We are 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 2: heading into the vault for an older episode of Stuff 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind. This is part two of our 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 2: series on Osiris. This episode originally published April fourth, twenty 7 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 2: twenty four. 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: All right, let's jump bright in. 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. 10 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: name is Robert. 12 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with 13 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 2: part two of our discussion of Osiris, the ancient Egyptian 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 2: god of fertility, an embodiment of kingship, especially dead kingship 15 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 2: and the lord and judge of the dead. 16 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, also in agricultural god. There's there's a lot of 17 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: complexity to Osiris, and so in the last episode we 18 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: basically talked about who this figure of Osiris is, where 19 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: and when he emerges from as much as we can 20 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: answer that question, and the basic canon of myths surrounding him. 21 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: And the fact that you were inspired to do this 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 2: topic because we covered the movie Doctor Phibes Rises again. 23 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like seventy five percent Doctor Five's maybe twenty 24 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: five percent Easter. So props to Doctor Phibes and Jesus 25 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: for inspiring this episode. Now, before we get into some 26 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: we are going to get into some additional questions that 27 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: we tease last time about comparisons to be made between 28 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: the figure of Osiris and other deities and other religions. 29 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,279 Speaker 1: But before we do that, I want to come back 30 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: to a deity that I mentioned in the last episode 31 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: towards the end of it, and that is the Greco 32 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: Egyptian syncretic deity Serapists. This is the deity that is 33 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: established under the rule of the Ptolemies in Egypt, a 34 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:10,640 Speaker 1: god that combines elements of Osiris and APIs the Sacred Bull. 35 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: These are both again Egyptian deities, along with various Greek 36 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: deities like Zeus and Hades. So I just wanted to 37 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 1: add a little more context on this because I don't 38 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:23,640 Speaker 1: think I explained the scenario as well as I could have, 39 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: or didn't go into as much detail as I could 40 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: have in a way that I think benefits our understanding. 41 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: Because we get into this idea again of kind of 42 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 1: like an amalgam god that is to a certain degree, 43 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: kind of built by committee with a certain purpose in mind. 44 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: And that purpose is not just like, oh, I have 45 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: to figure out who you know, what God is real, 46 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: and I must convene with it and get its blessings. 47 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: Robin our outline. You have attached a photo of a 48 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 2: sculpture of Serapis seated on a throne or at least 49 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 2: on a chair, sort of dressed in a robe and 50 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 2: holding up some kind of wand or maybe a scroll 51 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 2: of a toon of some some sort of cylindrical object. 52 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: But under his other hand, Oh, there's a very good boy. 53 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 2: It is the three headed hound of Hades, Cerberus. 54 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,679 Speaker 1: That's right, looking very loyal and very domesticated right there 55 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: by his side. There are various You can easily do 56 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: a Google search on Sirapis that's se r A Pi 57 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: s and you'll find various images that basically fit this. 58 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's just the head, sometimes you see the full body. 59 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes Cerberus is there, sometimes not. But I do have 60 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: to drive home like the utter greekness of this image, 61 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: because this will be important to come back to later, 62 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: Like this is a very Greek looking god. If you 63 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: didn't know exactly what deity this is or what figure 64 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: this is. You wouldn't have to know much at all 65 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: about iconography and sculpture and depictions of the divine to say, oh, 66 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: this looks very Greek to me. 67 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's certainly a Greek art style. 68 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course ye. And then the three headed 69 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: dog right out of Greek mythology. So come back to 70 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: Sirapis here in a set. But just to back up 71 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: a little bit, I do want to drive home that 72 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: Egypt experienced foreign rule at various points throughout its long history. 73 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: There were the Hixos, which I believe we've talked about 74 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: a little bit on the show before. This is a 75 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: term that means rulers of foreign lands, and they controlled 76 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: the Delta region of Egypt during the seventeenth century BCE. 77 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 1: These were the first foreigners to rule over part of Egypt, 78 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: and there's much that's not known about them, with various 79 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: theories about their exact origin, though it seems that some 80 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: sort of Canaanite origin is possible, and there has also 81 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: been some evidence to suggest that it was perhaps not 82 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,600 Speaker 1: an outward invasion but an uprising of peoples who had 83 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: previously immigrated to the region. So there's a lot of 84 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: scholarly dispute on exactly who these people were and what 85 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:53,479 Speaker 1: this time period consisted of. Now, subsequent invasions by the Nubians, 86 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: the Assyrians, the Persians, and the Greeks also occurred, but 87 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: pertinent to our discussion here is that in three point 88 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: thirty two BCE, Macedonian King Alexander the Great conquered Egypt 89 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: from the Persians, and after his death. After Alexander's death 90 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: in three twenty three BCE, likely by either poison or disease, 91 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: he was only thirty two at the time, so there's 92 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,799 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of arguments for the poison 93 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: theory here. But after he dies, a Macedonian general that 94 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,359 Speaker 1: had served under Alexander by the name of Ptolemy, declared 95 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: himself ruler of Egypt, and the Ptolemy family would rule 96 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: Egypt for three centuries. So in her book Egyptian Mythology 97 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: that I cited in the last episode, Jeraldin Pinch writes 98 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: a little bit about this and points out that the 99 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: Ptolemy's ruled from Alexandria, and that is of course where 100 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: they built the Great Library of Alexandria. Though most of 101 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: its contents, she points out would not have concerned Egyptian culture, 102 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: Egyptian history, and Egyptian mythology. You know, Greek culture was 103 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: very much the focal point of the lost contents of 104 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: this place. Most of the Ptolemies apparently never learned to 105 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: speak Egyptian, but the they did, she says, recognize the 106 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: challenges of governing a multicultural society and keeping powerful Egyptian 107 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: factions content. And this is ultimately where the invention of 108 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: Sirapis comes into play, which she describes as quote a 109 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: symbol of cultural fusion. So Sirapis is often described as 110 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: a patron deity for the Ptolemy capital of Alexandria, so 111 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: again a unifying entity. And also in combining all these elements, 112 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: Serapis becomes a god of not only fertility and the underworld, 113 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 1: which if you were already loaded in our concept of Osiris, 114 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 1: but also he becomes the god of the sun in 115 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: the sky, and he sometimes credited in this role as 116 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: Zeus Serapis. And it's interesting that by absorbing these various powers, 117 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: he essentially becomes a god of everything, sort of a 118 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: monotheism by monopoly or something like. 119 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: That, one god among many, increasingly absorbing more and more responsibilities. 120 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I was trying to think of it in 121 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: terms of, like what's a secular example of like have 122 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: have have team mascots ever been merged into single mascots 123 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: for you know, like the unification of sports teams. Have 124 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: the mascots of of uh? Oh, I don't I don't 125 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: know fast food chains ever been utilized in this fashion, 126 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: like well, you know, the shones has been taken over 127 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: by McDonald's, and now the Shonese boy or the Shoneese 128 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: Bear must be combined with elements of of uh, you know, 129 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,679 Speaker 1: the Ronald McDonald or Grimace or something. 130 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: You know like that that is funny, but that that 131 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: does kind of imply a necessary competition, like between sports 132 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 2: teams or between competitors within a market space, whereas that 133 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: wasn't always the case for gods. I mean, like you could, 134 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 2: you know, worship multiple gods and that wasn't usually a problem. 135 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, But but here we see this this intentional attempt 136 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: to create a deity and create a followship of this 137 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: deity that has stabilizing political objectives behind it. Oh and 138 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: real quick, just because this plays in something we talk 139 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,239 Speaker 1: about in the last episode is we're stressing that Isis 140 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: remains a separate entity, So it's not like they just 141 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: took everything and threw it into this concept of the god. 142 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: That would be too much, I imagine, But distinct gods 143 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: are combined into this entity now. According to Lauren Murphy 144 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: and Beware Greeks bearing God's Serapis as a cross cultural deity, 145 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: published in the journal Amphora in twenty twenty one, the 146 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: invented God doesn't seem to have unified the people in 147 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: any meaningful way as far as we can tell, but 148 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 1: it does stand as an example of the diversity that 149 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: was present in Egypt at the time. But it was 150 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: the religion of the ruling class of foreigners and those 151 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: wishing to mix with that ruling class of foreigners. And 152 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: also it seems like there were possible connections to an 153 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: inspiration via a pre Ptolemaic cult of Osiris APIs Is. 154 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: One can see in images of Serapis, he's predominantly depicted 155 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: as a Greek deity. But it does sound like there 156 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: might have already been some fusion of Osiris and APIs previously. 157 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: This would not it would seem not be out of 158 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: character with Egyptian religion. Prior to outside influence. Now, the 159 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 1: Ptolemaic line would of course end with its last ruler, 160 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: Cleopatra in thirty BCE, as it was, and after this 161 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: point it was absorbed by the Roman Empire. Worship of 162 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: Serapis lived on under Roman rule, but experienced eventual decline 163 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,680 Speaker 1: with the spread of Christianity during the fourth century CE. 164 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: I should say like the top down mandated spread of 165 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: Christianity in particular is the death blow to the cult 166 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: of Serapis. So if Serapis is a kind of monotheism 167 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: by monopoly, he's eventually replaced by actual monotheism. And I 168 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: think there's some discussion of whether the worship of a 169 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: figure like Siapis helped pave the way for the of Christianity. 170 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: I've seen that discussed, But at the very least, it 171 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: seems like there are other factors involved here within the 172 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: Roman Empire and regions affected by the Roman Empire. 173 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 2: Interesting. 174 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: But anyway, that's enough on si Rapist. Let's get back 175 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 1: to the original deity, but then also into some of 176 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: these conversations about Osiris's possible connection with other cultural traditions. 177 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 2: Let's return to Osiris right, So, rob when we were 178 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 2: Initially looking at this topic, I was asking is there 179 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: anything you wanted me to look into? And what you 180 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 2: suggested was a question that I had read a little 181 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 2: bit about before, but I was quite intrigued to go 182 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 2: deeper into. And this is a question that has been 183 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 2: widely explored in the comparative study of religion, the connecting 184 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 2: principle or lack thereof, between Osiris and other gods from 185 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 2: the ancient world, most controversially the Christian Jesus, who are 186 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 2: believed to in some way die and then rise again, 187 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 2: so resurrected gods. This question will take us back to 188 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: our old friend James G. Fraser and his incredibly popular, 189 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 2: influential and controversial work The Golden Boo, which this was 190 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: a book published in several volumes over the course of 191 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 2: a couple of decades beginning in eighteen ninety. Fraser was 192 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: a Scottish scholar of religion in folklore who lived eighteen 193 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 2: fifty four to nineteen forty one, and The Golden Bao 194 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 2: is his best known work. In this book, Fraser catalogs 195 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 2: and analyzes a huge number of myths, rituals, and magical 196 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 2: beliefs from cultures around the world. So He sources these 197 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 2: observations both from like records of things believed in the 198 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 2: ancient world and you know, ancient myths and practices in 199 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 2: the Greco Roman world and so forth. All so he 200 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 2: sources this from ethnographic observations that people have made of 201 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: just beliefs and magical practices in cultures all around the globe, 202 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:15,559 Speaker 2: using these observations ultimately to support his broader thesis, which 203 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 2: include the idea that the ritual and mythic elements shared 204 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 2: by most ancient religions point back to an originating cult 205 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 2: practice that involved the ritual sacrifice of a holy king 206 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:34,559 Speaker 2: or guardian figure, often when his fertility was waning, and 207 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 2: the linkage of that practice to the seasonal rebirth of 208 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 2: nature and the crops. So his framework has a core 209 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 2: of this sacrifice of a divine figure, often a divine king, 210 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: and a cycle of death and rebirth that has some 211 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 2: implications for nature. You can see why this would be 212 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 2: relevant to the question at hand. Now, before we get 213 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 2: into the specifics of Resz directed gods, a couple of 214 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,719 Speaker 2: general notes on Fraser and the Golden Bough. I am 215 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: not at all an expert in religious anthropology, but my 216 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 2: personal take on The Golden Bough is that it is 217 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 2: on one hand worth reading because it's important in understanding 218 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: the history of Western scholarship on comparative religion, and it's 219 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 2: also just a very absorbing and fascinating text. But on 220 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: the other hand, this is like one hundred tow one 221 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 2: hundred and thirty year old book making the case for 222 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 2: a sweeping theory of world religions, and it should be 223 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 2: read with the caution you might expect for that kind 224 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 2: of work. So I would not take any of its claims, 225 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: specific or general, at face value without checking for confirmation 226 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: and other sources. I would also be skeptical of his 227 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 2: core theoretical framework, and I would just warn that from 228 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 2: research we have done on this book in the past, 229 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: I recall discovering that some of Fraser's presentation of ethnographic 230 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 2: information about religious practices seems often tailored or cherry picked 231 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 2: to fit his theories. Now the next general note, I 232 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 2: don't know if what I'm about to say is completely fair, 233 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 2: because Fraser doesn't say the following exactly, but I think 234 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: one of the informal conclusions that a reader is likely 235 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 2: to take away from The Golden Bough is that when 236 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: it comes down to it, all religions are basically the 237 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 2: same and the differences between them are incidental and superficial, 238 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: which I would argue is not correct. And even if 239 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: that's just an unintended takeaway that people would get from 240 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 2: this book, I think that's a thing that's a conclusion 241 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: that I would really stress people should resist. I do 242 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 2: think there are common themes that you will find popping 243 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 2: up again and again in many religions, but not all. 244 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 2: And I also think that the differences between religious beliefs 245 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 2: and practices around the world and throughout history do go 246 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 2: quite deep. Those differences are significan They're not just superficial 247 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 2: variations on the same thing, and some religions end up 248 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: serving profoundly different purposes. So personally, I wonder if the 249 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 2: desire to locate so much sameness or commonality between different 250 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 2: religions is something that really is. It is not something 251 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: that comes out of the religions themselves, but more emerges 252 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: from the need of scholars to have a theory that 253 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 2: explains how religions work and where they come from, when 254 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 2: in fact, it's a very just like, messy, complicated, variegated 255 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 2: phenomenon that you know, lots of different factors are at work, 256 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: and so it's hard to have a very simple theory 257 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 2: that explains where they come from. 258 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, even like the discussion we just had 259 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: about Serapis and Serapis's origins and all. I mean, that 260 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: doesn't fully capture what this entity may have meant and 261 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: the various additional complexities that may have been involved in 262 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: the genesis of this figure. So, yeah, when you get 263 00:15:58,080 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: into religion, when you get into belief, and you get 264 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: in to these into a process that often you know, 265 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: you're talking about a tradition that goes for centuries and 266 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: therefore has all sorts of room for change and alteration 267 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: and transformation and so forth. 268 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: That's right, exactly exactly. But anyway, to come back to 269 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 2: these resurrected gods, A big part of Fraser's model was 270 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 2: that many religions of the ancient world commonly shared a 271 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: dying and reviving god, usually a male deity associated with fertility, 272 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: who undergoes a divine marriage to a fertility goddess, who 273 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 2: is then killed or sacrificed sometimes when his fertility wanes 274 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: in some way, and then rises from death to live again. 275 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 2: And this resurrection is linked to cycles of loss and 276 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: return in the natural and political world, such as the seasons, 277 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 2: the death of plants in winter and the rebirth in 278 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 2: spring and summer, the seasonal inundation of the nile, and 279 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 2: other natural cycles and political cycles, the death of kings 280 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: and the coronation of their errs. So the question is 281 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 2: do we really find these dying and rising gods all 282 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 2: throughout the ancient religions. Unfortunately, if you look into this question, 283 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: I think you find the topic horribly polluted by a 284 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 2: lot of motivated argumentation, primarily tracing back to the question 285 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 2: of whether Jesus of Nazareth should be thought of as 286 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 2: one of these dying and rising deities. So this topic 287 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 2: is infected by both Christian apologetics and anti Christian polemics. 288 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 2: So you've got, you know, people who don't like Christianity, 289 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 2: anti Christian polemicists arguing, look, see how stupid Christianity is. 290 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 2: Jesus is just a copy of these other dying and 291 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,439 Speaker 2: rising deities. And then you've got Christian apologists arguing that no, 292 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 2: Christianity is totally unique, it is unlike any other religion 293 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 2: on earth because it is the one true religion and 294 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 2: all such comparisons are spurious, so caveat that there is 295 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 2: a lot of that kind of garbage floating around in 296 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: both directions. I'm trying to do my best to put 297 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 2: together a clear and what seems to me relatively unbiased 298 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: answer to the question of what similarities exist between these 299 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 2: alleged dying and rising gods and to what extent Osiris 300 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 2: and Jesus fit into that mold. 301 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, the real tragedy is that it just makes it 302 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: almost impossible for these two to ever hang out. 303 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, all of Jesus's friends are saying Osiris is 304 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: just trying to be like Jesus, and all of Jesus 305 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 2: Osirius's friends are saying Jesus is just trying to be 306 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: like him. 307 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. 308 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 2: Will the accusations of copying never stop? But anyway, So, 309 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,120 Speaker 2: of course, the dying and reviving Deity's framework was popular 310 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 2: with Fraser and his allies, so I think in the 311 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: early twentieth century were sort of associated with Cambridge University. 312 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 2: So I want to go through a couple of the 313 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 2: examples that Fraser cites and then we'll get into critiques 314 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 2: of them. So one example is the god Adonis, a 315 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 2: figure in Greek myth thought to have been derived from 316 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 2: other ancient Near Eastern deities, such as the Mesopotamian god 317 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 2: of agriculture, Tamus or Demuzi. Adonis, in many tellings, began 318 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:13,879 Speaker 2: as a mortal man famed for his beauty. He was 319 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 2: sort of the pinnacle of hotness, and he was so 320 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: handsome that when he was young, the goddesses Aphrodite and 321 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 2: Persephone fought bitterly over whether he would live with one 322 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 2: of them or the other. More on that myth in 323 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: a minute. But then another story is that later in 324 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 2: his life Adonis was the lover of Aphrodite until he 325 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 2: was tragically impaled by a wild bore wild hunting, so 326 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 2: it gets the tusk right in the guts, and so 327 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: he's out there dying in the in the wilderness on 328 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 2: the hunt, and the goddess Aphrodite comes and weeps over 329 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 2: his body, and as her tears fall and Adonis's blood 330 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 2: runs down into the earth, the ground produces delicate flowers. 331 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 2: Sometimes a specific type of flower is named, so like 332 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 2: you know you've got. In some understandings of the story, 333 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 2: the body fluids of these divine lovers combine upon the 334 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 2: young man's death and bring forth the fruits of the earth, 335 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 2: and to try to understand the significance of this figure, 336 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 2: Fraser starts looking at celebrations of the death of Adonnas. 337 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: There was a. 338 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 2: Festival or a commemoration of the death of Adonnas that 339 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 2: was celebrated in the summertime, and Fraser looks at accounts 340 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 2: of this ritual. So Fraser says, quote, at Alexandria, images 341 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 2: of Aphrodite and Adonis were displayed on two couches. Beside 342 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 2: them were set ripe fruits of all kinds, cakes, plants 343 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,200 Speaker 2: growing in flower pots, and green bowers twined with Annis. 344 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: The marriage of the lovers was celebrated one day, and 345 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: then on the morrow, women attired as mourners, with streaming 346 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 2: hair and bared breasts, bore the image of the dead 347 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 2: Adonnas to the seashore and committed it to the waves. 348 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: Yet they sorrowed not without hope, for they sang that 349 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 2: the lost would come back again. And after describing more 350 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 2: of these rituals, Fraser says, summarizing quote, we may therefore 351 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 2: accept as probable an explanation of the Adonis worship, which 352 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 2: accords so well with the facts of nature and with 353 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 2: the analogy of similar rights in other lands. Moreover, the 354 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: explanation is countenanced by a considerable body of opinion amongst 355 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 2: the ancients themselves, who again and again interpreted the dying 356 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 2: and reviving God as the reaped and sprouting grain. Fraser 357 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 2: also cites Temus, the Mesopotamian god from which Adonis is 358 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 2: probably derived. Tamus was the consort of the goddess Inana 359 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: and was also linked to crop cycles and apparently images 360 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 2: of death and rebirth. Among many gods Fraser offers as 361 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 2: displaying death and resurrection. He also cites the Egyptian god Osiris. Now, 362 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 2: of course, we already went over the basic myth of Osiris, 363 00:21:57,359 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 2: But what does Fraser have to say about the meaning 364 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: of Osiris here? So I'm going to read a couple 365 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 2: of lengthier quotes from Fraser here on Osiris. 366 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: Quote. 367 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: In the resurrection of Osiris, the Egyptians saw the pledge 368 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 2: of a life everlasting for themselves beyond the grave. They 369 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 2: believed that every man would live eternally in the other 370 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 2: world if only his surviving friends did for his body 371 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 2: what the gods had done for the body of Osiris. Hence, 372 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 2: the ceremonies observed by the Egyptians over the human dead 373 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 2: were an exact copy of those which Annibis, Horus and 374 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 2: the rest had performed over the dead god. And then 375 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: he goes on. At every burial there was enacted a 376 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,000 Speaker 2: representation of the divine mystery which had been performed of 377 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: old over Osiris, when his son, his sisters, his friends 378 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 2: were gathered round his mangled remains and succeeded by their 379 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 2: spells and manipulations in converting his broken body into the 380 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 2: first mummy, which they afterwards reanimated and furnished with the 381 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,959 Speaker 2: means of entering on a new individual life beyond the grave. 382 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 2: The mummy of the deceased was Osiris. The professional female 383 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 2: mourners were his two sisters, Isis and Nepthis Annibis Horas, 384 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 2: all the gods of the Osirian legend gathered about the corpse. 385 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 2: In this way, every dead Egyptian was identified with Osiris 386 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,359 Speaker 2: and bore his name. From the Middle Kingdom onwards, it 387 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 2: was the regular practice to address the deceased as Osiris 388 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,400 Speaker 2: so and so, as if he were the god himself, 389 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 2: and to add the standing epithet true of speech, because 390 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 2: true speech was characteristic of Osiris. The thousands of inscribed 391 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 2: and pictured tombs that have been opened in the Valley 392 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 2: of the Nile prove that the mystery of the resurrection 393 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: was performed for the benefit of every dead Egyptian. As 394 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,440 Speaker 2: Osiris died and rose again from the dead, so all 395 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 2: men hoped to arise like him from death to life eternal. 396 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 2: So there's a kind of in what Fraser is implying here, 397 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: there's a kind of special role for Osiris, especially when 398 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 2: compared to some of these other examples of allegedly dying 399 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 2: and reviving gods, where Osiris not only in Fraser's mind, 400 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 2: dies and then is brought to life again, but by 401 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 2: re enacting what happens to Osiris, he shows the way 402 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: the people that regular mortals can also be revived again 403 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 2: after death, though we will add some qualifications to in 404 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,639 Speaker 2: what sense they should be thought of as revived. So 405 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 2: one thing that of course causes controversy is that among 406 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 2: many of these examples, Fraser also brings up the example 407 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,719 Speaker 2: of Christ, the Christian Jesus, drawing direct connection between the 408 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 2: Easter resurrection of Christ and say, the rituals of Adonis. 409 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 2: This drew scorn from conservative Christians, of course, but you 410 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 2: might expect that, but the question would remain, were these 411 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 2: comparisons sound comparisons between all these different figures? And I think, 412 00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 2: after doing some additional reading, I think the answer is 413 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 2: a little bit but mostly no. 414 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 3: So. 415 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 2: Later in the twentieth century, Fraser's category of dying and 416 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 2: reviving gods came under what seems to me like quite 417 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 2: legitimate criticism by other major scholars. One notable name here 418 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 2: is the American historian of religions Jonathan Z. Smith, who 419 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 2: was affiliated with the University of Chicago and directly addressing 420 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 2: this question of dying and reviving gods. Smith wrote a 421 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 2: highly cited entry in the Encyclopedia of Religion edited by Eliade. 422 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 2: The entry was called Dying and Rising Gods, and in 423 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 2: this chapter Smith showed that really the category of dying 424 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 2: and Rising gods is not much of a category, in 425 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 2: that most of the items Fraser and others placed within 426 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 2: the class are quote based on imaginative reconstructions and exceedingly 427 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,119 Speaker 2: late or highly ambiguous texts. In other words, this this 428 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 2: category emerges from reliance on questionable sources and on tortured 429 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: readings of legitimate source materials to try to fit them 430 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 2: into the resurrected god box. So how would that be 431 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 2: given what we just looked at. It seemed like Fraser 432 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 2: presented some good examples. 433 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: Well. 434 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 2: Smith says that actually, if you look at the examples 435 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:26,360 Speaker 2: Fraser sites, there aren't any fully dying and rising gods. Instead, 436 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,880 Speaker 2: you have two distinct categories. One is dying gods. These 437 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 2: are gods that die but are not said to rise 438 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 2: again from death. And the other is disappearing gods. Gods 439 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 2: that disappear and then in some cases reappear, sometimes quote 440 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 2: with monotonous frequency. But the disappearance is not death and 441 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 2: the reappearance is not resurrection. 442 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: Okay, well we may have to have some examples of this. 443 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, adnnask has got you covered here, so I'm 444 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 2: going to look in detail at the example of Adonnas. 445 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 2: Smith says, there are two main myths of Adonnas that 446 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 2: we know from our sources. One is the one I 447 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, where Adonis is killed by a bore and 448 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 2: his lover Aphrodite weeps over his body and creates a 449 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 2: fragile flower. So in this myth, Adonnis dies but he 450 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 2: does not rise. Fraser sort of allides this by connecting 451 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 2: the story to the mourning celebration of Adonnas's death with 452 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 2: sort of the involvement of summer crops and plants and 453 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,359 Speaker 2: stuff like that. But in the story, Adonnas just dies. 454 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 2: We'll get to the rituals in a second. But in 455 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 2: the story there's no resurrection, and the festival created by 456 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 2: Aphrodite to commemorate his death is a festival of mourning. 457 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 2: The other Adonnas myth to quote Smith here tells of 458 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 2: quote a quarrel between two goddesses, Aphrodite and Persephone, for 459 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 2: the affections of the infant Adonis Zeus or Calliope decrees 460 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 2: that Adonnas should spend part of the in the upper 461 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 2: world with one I assume with Aphrodite, and part of 462 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 2: the year in the lower world with the other. I 463 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 2: assume that would be Persephone. This tradition of by location 464 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 2: similar to that connected with Persephone and perhaps DEMUSI has 465 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 2: no suggestion of death and rebirth, So you could argue 466 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 2: maybe that going into the underworld and then coming back 467 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: to the upper world has like resonance with the idea 468 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 2: of resurrection. There's some kind of symbolic linkage. It's thematically similar, 469 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 2: but it is not literally the same thing. 470 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: Right, And I think that that becomes obvious when you 471 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: look at any number of stories about characters venturing into 472 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: the underworld, it generally has the flavor of a physical journey. 473 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,240 Speaker 1: And we see that even carried on into literary traditions, 474 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: like even in Dante's Inferno, Like Dante does not die 475 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 1: and to send into the Inferno. No, he travels there. 476 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, in some important senses he is changed, but he doesn't. 477 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 2: He doesn't like have to go through bodily death. 478 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: Right. 479 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 2: But okay, So Fraser was also looking not just at 480 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 2: like written versions of the Adonna Smith, but also at 481 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 2: rituals to see what people believed about him. So what 482 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 2: about evidence for the resurrection of Adonnas in ritual? In 483 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 2: terms of ritual, there are later sources possibly linking Adonnas 484 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 2: to resurrection, but these sources are problematic. According to Jonathan Smith, 485 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 2: there is one allegedly second century source by Lucien that 486 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 2: in a pretty sketchy and ambiguous way, describes rituals which 487 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: could be interpreted as celebrating the resurrection of Adonnas, but 488 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 2: it's not clear at all that this is what Lucian 489 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 2: is describing. To quote from Smith's summary, Lucian says, quote, 490 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: on the third day of the ritual, a statue of 491 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 2: Adonnas is quote brought out into the light and quote 492 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 2: dressed as if alive. And I was thinking, wait a minute, 493 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 2: but aren't many cult statues addressed as if alive? 494 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, and yeah. You get into a complex area 495 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: of interpretation when you figure out, like what does it 496 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: mean for someone to address a statue of a deity? 497 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 2: Right, So, a cult statue may have some kind of 498 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: eternal existence that it is connected to, even if it 499 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 2: is an image of a god who has died, But 500 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 2: that doesn't necessarily mean if you're like talking to the 501 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 2: statue that you believe that the god was resurrected again 502 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 2: from death. 503 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 504 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 2: And then Smith says that there are other descriptions of 505 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 2: these rituals which do make unambiguous reference to the resurrection 506 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 2: of Adonnas, but they only show up later in the 507 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 2: Roman period, after the spread of Christianity, and they are 508 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 2: written by Christians in a way that raises questions about them, Like, 509 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: so if Christians are saying that worshippers of Adonnas are 510 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 2: saying Adonis was raised from the dead, is the resurrected 511 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 2: God theme of Christianity perhaps having some influence on the 512 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 2: myth of Adonis by this point, or is the resurrected 513 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 2: God theme of Christianity influencing the way Christian observers interpret 514 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 2: the rituals of Roman pagans. 515 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: Hmm, yeah, that's a very good point. 516 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 2: So Smith says, quote this pattern will recur for many 517 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 2: of the figures considered an indigenous mythology and ritual focusing 518 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 2: on the deities death and rituals of lamentation, followed by 519 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 2: a later Christian report adding the element nowhere found in 520 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 2: the earlier native sources that the God was resurrected. I 521 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 2: think that is a very interesting pattern. So like Christian 522 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 2: observers look at other religions and they see a dead God, 523 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 2: and it's quite possible they just assume that a dead 524 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 2: God is supposed to rise again and kind of read 525 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 2: that into the ritual. 526 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think then there's probably a case to 527 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: be made, even like the spread of Christianity and like 528 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: the reinterpretation often with you know, an agenda of of tradition, 529 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: local traditions, taking existing religious traditions and sort of reframing 530 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: them in the light of the Christian religion exactly. 531 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 2: So, but what about the thing about symbolic rebirth. What 532 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 2: about the the ritual and mythic association that Fraser seems 533 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,959 Speaker 2: to allege between Adonnas and plant life, which you know 534 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 2: dies in the winter and is quote resurrected in spring. 535 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,840 Speaker 2: Well Smith says, if you look at ancient sources, even 536 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,760 Speaker 2: these symbolic associations are not present in the worship of Adonnas. 537 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 2: Smith writes, quote, the frequently cited gardens of Adonnas the 538 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 2: Kepoi were proverbial illustrations of the brief, transitory nature of 539 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 2: life and contain no hint of rebirth. The point is 540 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 2: that the young plant shoots rapidly, wither and die, not 541 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 2: that the seeds have been reborn when they sprout. So 542 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 2: I thought that was also really interesting, because I would 543 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 2: just so easily and so naturally look at a sort 544 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 2: of plant based ritual celebration and assume it had something 545 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 2: to do with cycles of death and rebirth. But that's 546 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 2: an assumption that might not be what the people doing 547 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 2: that practice think it means. So Smith is saying what 548 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 2: ancient people said about these gardens was not that they 549 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 2: were to emphasize the theme of resurrection, but to emphasize 550 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 2: the theme once again of mourning and loss of the 551 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 2: beautiful youth who died too soon, just like these young 552 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 2: plant shoots that come up and then wither rapidly. I 553 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 2: feel like this kind of thing makes me a little 554 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 2: more cautious about my my myth interpretation goggles that. 555 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean absolutely. It even goes back to some 556 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: of the ways that we discussed and cited discussions of 557 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: Osiris in the first episode, you know, thinking about how 558 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: this basic myth matches up with you know, cyclical life 559 00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,920 Speaker 1: and death and the agricultural cycles as well. 560 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 2: But okay, that's a donnas. What about Osiris? It seems 561 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 2: to me that of all the examples that Smith looks at, 562 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 2: Osiris comes the closest to being genuinely killed and resurrected 563 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 2: on a plane reading of the myth. But is he 564 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 2: really resurrected? Smith argues, no, Osiris is not actually resurrected, 565 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 2: because remember, of course, Osiris in the story is killed 566 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 2: and dismembered by Seth or set and then the pieces 567 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: of his body are put back together again and he 568 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 2: is rejuvenated, but not in this world. Instead, he goes 569 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 2: on living in the other place, in the underworld, the 570 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 2: realm of the dead, where he is empowered to become 571 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 2: the master and judge of the wandering dead. So he 572 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 2: does not rise from the dead. He goes on living 573 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,800 Speaker 2: in the afterlife. So it almost seems to me that 574 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 2: his resurrection in the afterlife could be seen as kind 575 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 2: of anonymous with his enthronement as the lord of the 576 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 2: dead and his empowerment to serve the role of judgment. 577 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:07,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 578 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And regarding the ritual reenactment of the story in 579 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 2: osiris worship practices, Smith says, quote the repeated formula rise up, 580 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 2: you have not died, whether applied to Osiris or a 581 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 2: citizen of Egypt, signaled a new permanent life in the 582 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 2: realm of the dead. 583 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: That's right. Going back to what we said about the 584 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: idea that Osiris is ultimately kind of the opener of 585 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: the way that democratizes or helps propel the already existing 586 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 1: democratization of the afterlife. It's no longer just for kings. 587 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,759 Speaker 1: It is now something that everyone has access to, provided 588 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,920 Speaker 1: you can have the right mummification procedures performed on your 589 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 1: body exactly. 590 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 2: And so this is something that Fraser was saying, where 591 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 2: I think he was sort of on the right track 592 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 2: in the case of Osiris. Smith argues that in the 593 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 2: case of Osiris, there is a clear link between myth 594 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 2: and ritual. There's the strong connection, which is something that 595 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 2: Fraser is always trying to emphasize, is the link between 596 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 2: myth and ritual and myths sort of being the story 597 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 2: like that the ritual re enacts the myth, and the 598 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 2: myth in Fraser's telling is often derived from the ritual. 599 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: It's like a narrativizing of the ritual. But whatever the 600 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 2: actual chain of events there is in this case, there 601 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 2: is clearly a strong link between the myth and the ritual. 602 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 2: In that the mythical description of the recovery and reassembly 603 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 2: of the pieces of the body of Osiris, I believe 604 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 2: this is by Isis and his allies. This is a 605 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 2: clear parallel of the funeral rits of Egypt. Smith lists 606 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 2: these funeral rites quote the vigil over his corpse, then 607 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 2: the hymns of lamentation, the embalmment usually performed by Annibis, 608 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 2: the washing and purification of the corpse, the undertaking of 609 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 2: the elaborate ritual of the opening of the mouth with 610 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 2: its one hundred and seven separate operations, as well as 611 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 2: other procedures for reanimation, the dressing of the body and 612 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 2: the pouring out of libations. So in a way, the 613 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 2: dead Egyptian would, in a sense, through having the funeral 614 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 2: rites performed upon their body, become Osiris, and just like Osiris, 615 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 2: though dead to this world, they would awaken to a 616 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,839 Speaker 2: new life in another world. Smith writes, quote the myth 617 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 2: and ritual of Osiris emphasizes the message that there is 618 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 2: life for the dead, although it is of a different 619 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 2: character than that of the living. What is to be 620 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 2: feared is in a quote from the Book of Going 621 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 2: forth by Day. I think this is another name for 622 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 2: what is sometimes called the Book of the Dead quote 623 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 2: dying for a second time in the realm of the dead. 624 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 2: And there are ways that, according to the story, this 625 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:54,360 Speaker 2: can happen to you, for example, being devoured by the lion, hippopotamus, 626 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 2: crocodile monster am it in the underworld. 627 00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, we've talked a little bit about the 628 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 1: complexity of the ancient Egyptian afterlife before, where it's it's 629 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,120 Speaker 1: it's not just a it's it's it's not something you 630 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: could compare just sort of like the sort of mainstream 631 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: vision of a Christian heaven. It is a place where 632 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,320 Speaker 1: you're probably gonna need your spells, you're gonna need your followers, 633 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:19,400 Speaker 1: You're gonna need tools and a plan in order to 634 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 1: make the best go of. 635 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,319 Speaker 2: It, exactly right, you have to prepare. It's not just 636 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 2: that you have to be worthy of the good afterlife, 637 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,439 Speaker 2: but like in in some visions, it takes like work 638 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 2: to get there. 639 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is of course, this is not just 640 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 1: an ancient Egyptian religion. There are various examples we can 641 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,319 Speaker 1: turn to where like that journey between this life and 642 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 1: the next is one that is perilous and has to 643 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: go just right an other in order to work right. 644 00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 2: So it seems to me that of the examples Fraser 645 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 2: brings up o Cyrus maybe comes the closest, or is 646 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 2: one of the closer ones to being a true dying 647 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 2: and reviving God. But even in his case, there's a 648 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,520 Speaker 2: pretty strong conceptual distinction of what the new life is 649 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:07,879 Speaker 2: that makes calling this a resurrection somewhat strained. So, after 650 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 2: analyzing all of the most prominent cases of alleged dying 651 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 2: and reviving gods. Smith concludes as follows quote. As the 652 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 2: above examples make plain, the category of dying and rising 653 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 2: deities is exceedingly dubious. It has been based largely on 654 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,840 Speaker 2: Christian interest and tenuous evidence. As such, the category is 655 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 2: of more interest to the history of scholarship than to 656 00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 2: the history of religions. And you know, so that might 657 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,720 Speaker 2: kind of make you think like, ah, well, then who cares? 658 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 2: But I think it is actually very illustrative that you 659 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 2: can see this category sort of emerge, where with scholars 660 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 2: trying to make sense of all these different stories and 661 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 2: rituals and stuff, and putting all these gods and figures 662 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 2: from myths into the category, and ultimately, if you look 663 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 2: really close, it's not a super cohesive category, and a 664 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 2: lot of the things, maybe all the things put into 665 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,279 Speaker 2: it don't really fit and don't have as much in 666 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,120 Speaker 2: common as the scholar is claiming they do. And if 667 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,880 Speaker 2: Smith is correct here, I find his case pretty convincing. 668 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 2: If he's correct about this being largely based on Christian 669 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,399 Speaker 2: interest by scholars from Christian cultures, I think that's also 670 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,719 Speaker 2: illuminating that like dominant sort of story themes within your 671 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 2: culture that seem very familiar to you, just kind of 672 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 2: naturally manifest when looking at ambiguously similar things in other 673 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 2: cultural contexts. 674 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I mean at times it can be 675 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: a very useful exercise and either helping us to get 676 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: a leg up on understanding another culture or another system 677 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: of beliefs. It can also be a frame of commonality. 678 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,919 Speaker 1: It can be very positive in terms of like seeing 679 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: the similarities rather than differences. But yeah, when you get 680 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: into like this deeper attempt to understand the religion, you 681 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: could see where some of it could cast too much 682 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: of a shadow on your interpretation of this other way 683 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 1: of looking at the cosmos. 684 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 2: I think that's right. But then on the other hand, 685 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,840 Speaker 2: I want to come back and say we shouldn't stop 686 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 2: looking at similarities between religions because there are similarities. Like 687 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,840 Speaker 2: Smith says, Yeah, this dying and reviving god category doesn't 688 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:16,919 Speaker 2: make a whole lot of sense, But there are these 689 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 2: other patterns you can see, like dying gods. There are 690 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 2: a bunch of dying god myths that have interesting things 691 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,600 Speaker 2: in common, and you could kind of look at, like, 692 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 2: why do they have these things in common that that's 693 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:32,080 Speaker 2: worth studying. You also have this pattern of the disappearing 694 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,640 Speaker 2: and sometimes reappearing God myth. What does that tell us 695 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 2: about religions? You can look at these similarities, and so 696 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 2: it's also not unreasonable to look at similarities between Christianity, 697 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,120 Speaker 2: a religion that certainly does have a dying and reviving God, 698 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,240 Speaker 2: with some of these other religions. And so one source 699 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 2: that came across that I thought made a very interesting 700 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 2: point A was a chapter called Resurrection in Ancient Egypt 701 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 2: by the German egypt ptologist jan Osman, who has plenty 702 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 2: of his own ideas he's pushing about, like the lineage 703 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,799 Speaker 2: of certain types of resurrection beliefs. I think ultimately he 704 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 2: thinks that a lot of these beliefs have an original 705 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 2: source in Egyptian religion and then spread out to other places. 706 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 2: But regardless of whether he's correct about that, I think 707 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 2: he makes a very good point about a similarity between 708 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 2: belief in Christ and the earlier belief in Osiris, which, 709 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 2: on one hand, you have plenty of differences, like the 710 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,239 Speaker 2: death of Jesus is a one time event that is 711 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 2: situated within history. It said, like, you know, well, he's 712 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 2: a man who existed at a certain time and place 713 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 2: in history, and so it's like his death is a 714 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 2: historical event, not something that takes place within a kind 715 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,200 Speaker 2: of mythic time or a within a mythic landscape. But 716 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 2: on the other hand, you could look at the deaths 717 00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 2: and revivals of these two god figures, is having a 718 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 2: lot in common in that, as Osman says quote, through 719 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 2: his death and resurrection, Christ has paved the way to 720 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 2: Paradise or Elysium in a way not altogether dissimilar from 721 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 2: that of Osiris, who also threw his victory over seth 722 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,640 Speaker 2: opened a realm beyond the realm of death. The decisive 723 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 2: common denominator of Christianity and ancient Egyptian religion is the 724 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,280 Speaker 2: idea of redemption from death, that beyond the realm of death, 725 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 2: there is an Elysian realm of eternal life in the 726 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 2: presence of the divine. So in both cases you can 727 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,520 Speaker 2: look at these gods as gods who were killed and 728 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,880 Speaker 2: then in some sense revived. Christ is said to be 729 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 2: revived onto earth and then ascends into heaven. Osiris is 730 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 2: revived and made lord, a lord of the underworld and 731 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,000 Speaker 2: judge of the dead. But in both cases they open 732 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 2: the way for people to have a sort of heaven again. 733 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 2: Want to put the star on heaven there and say 734 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,239 Speaker 2: it means different things in the two different concepts, but 735 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 2: it is a positive afterlife that is now available to 736 00:43:59,120 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 2: the people. 737 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. In both cases, the individual is the opener 738 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: of the way, you know, and the Ptolemies might come 739 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,320 Speaker 1: along and say, you know, we have this guy named 740 00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,200 Speaker 1: Serapis and he does all. 741 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:13,920 Speaker 2: Of this as well, perfect give me all three. Yeah, 742 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 2: well he's got a dog. Wait now, was he often 743 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:19,960 Speaker 2: depicted as having Cerberus by his side, like having a 744 00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 2: three headed pup or is that just a unique feature 745 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:23,800 Speaker 2: of that sculpture. 746 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: I mean, based on the remaining images of Serapis, it 747 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: does seem like it seems like he is sometimes depicted 748 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:35,839 Speaker 1: with Cerberus, and I believe that that is simply because, Yeah, 749 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,040 Speaker 1: if you are going to take this character of Osiris, 750 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: who is a god of the underworld, and you are 751 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: going to spin him into this this very Greek themed model, 752 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,200 Speaker 1: well then you're going to drag in Hades, and you're 753 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,759 Speaker 1: going to drag in like this key example of sort 754 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,360 Speaker 1: of in a way summing up this idea of the 755 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: taming of death. Right. So that's my understanding of it. 756 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,960 Speaker 1: But I I certainly have seen other depictions of him 757 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 1: that don't have the dog present. All right, Well, on 758 00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:06,480 Speaker 1: that note, I believe we're going to go ahead and 759 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 1: close the book on Osiris here with the caveat that 760 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,400 Speaker 1: I'm not sure what the next core episode is going 761 00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,319 Speaker 1: to be, but we were throwing around the idea of 762 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,360 Speaker 1: doing something that was still kind of Osiris, but is 763 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,359 Speaker 1: not Osiris Part three, So just I don't know. You'd 764 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: have to see what happens, and we shall see what 765 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:26,359 Speaker 1: happens as well. 766 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:27,160 Speaker 2: Okay. 767 00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:29,520 Speaker 1: In the meantime, we'd love to hear from everyone out 768 00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 1: there if you have thoughts on this two parter, if 769 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,080 Speaker 1: you have thoughts on past episodes or potential future episodes 770 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,319 Speaker 1: right in we would love to hear from you. Just 771 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,720 Speaker 1: a reminder that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily 772 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,440 Speaker 1: a science and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays 773 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 1: and Thursdays, but on Mondays we do listener mail, on 774 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: Wednesdays we do a short form episode, and on Fridays 775 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,640 Speaker 1: we set aside most serious concerns to just talk about 776 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: a weird movie on Weird House Cinema. 777 00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:55,800 Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ posway. 778 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us 779 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,000 Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest 780 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 2: us to topic for the future, or just to say hello, 781 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,080 Speaker 2: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 782 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:13,880 Speaker 2: your Mind dot com. 783 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,880 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 784 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,799 Speaker 3: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 785 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.