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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The beat goes on with

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Speaker 1: jury selection for wealthy attorney turned murder defendant Alex Murdog,

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Speaker 1: accused of murdering his wife Maggie and son Paul as

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Speaker 1: his financial world his empire unraveled. I Nancy Grace, this

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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here

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Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and Sirius XM one eleven. Right now,

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Speaker 1: we believe a jury may be impaneled as early as

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Speaker 1: today with me an all star panel to make sense

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Speaker 1: of what we know right now. But first of all,

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Speaker 1: I want you to take a listen to our cut one, three, four,

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Speaker 1: our friends at NBC. The tiny town of Walter Bruce,

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Speaker 1: South Carolina, tonight an epicenter of intrigue. The widely watched

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Speaker 1: murder trial of former attorney Alec Murdoch now underway. Murdoch

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Speaker 1: is charged with killing his wife Maggie and son Paul

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Speaker 1: in June of twenty twenty one. His defense claims he's innocent,

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Speaker 1: the killers still at large, but prosecutors contend he snapped

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Speaker 1: under the pressure of a secret life, unraveling his motive,

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Speaker 1: they say, to garner sympathy and distract from a series

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Speaker 1: of financial crimes where Murdoch sold millions of dollars from

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Speaker 1: his family law firm and from clients. All that unraveling

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Speaker 1: before the eyes of potential jurors got an all star

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Speaker 1: pound to make sense what we know right now. But

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Speaker 1: first straight up to Matt Harris, formerly with w S

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Speaker 1: OCTV and now star of the Murdoch Family Murders Impact

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Speaker 1: of Influence. You can find him on Facebook at Murdoch Podcast. Matt,

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Speaker 1: thanks for being with us. What's the latest in the

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Speaker 1: jury selection? Well, today the day we think, even before

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Speaker 1: the second session begins that they will finalize the jury today.

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Speaker 1: The defense and prosecution are going to get to use

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Speaker 1: their strikes this morning, the jurors that are left, and

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Speaker 1: then it'll be whittled down again and hopefully by lunch

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Speaker 1: we will have a jury. Wow. You know again Mark

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Speaker 1: Tate with me, high profile lawyer out of Savannah with

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Speaker 1: a Tate Lawgroup at Tate Lawgroup dot com. Again, this

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Speaker 1: is not California where jury selection can take weeks and

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Speaker 1: weeks and weeks. Right now, they started this jury selection

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Speaker 1: with nine hundred jurars to pick twelve from twelve plus

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Speaker 1: six alternates, and she should be very difficult to claim

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Speaker 1: out of nine hundred people, you can't find twelve qualified jurars.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're right. It's not California, it's not New

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Speaker 1: Yorker or South Florida. And I've picked juries in New

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Speaker 1: York and South Florida in Arkansas, and I can tell

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Speaker 1: you that this judge and in South Carolina, the judge

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Speaker 1: doesn't put up with a whole lot of delay and

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Speaker 1: dilatory tactics from either side in selecting a jury. And

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Speaker 1: you know, Nanswy, you're not really selecting the juries the jurors.

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Speaker 1: You're simply eliminating the ones with your strikes that you have.

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Speaker 1: And each side gets a certain number of strikes in

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Speaker 1: each side has an unlimited number of you know, biased

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Speaker 1: based strikes or for cause. And I agree with you.

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Speaker 1: Getting down to twelve from ninety for either side should

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Speaker 1: be fairly straightforward. Harpoolian's got to prove that there's a

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Speaker 1: doubt that you can put a reason to and the

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Speaker 1: prosecution's got to prove there is no doubt that Murdoch

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Speaker 1: kill them, killed them. You know, Martin Tate, high profile

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Speaker 1: lawyer out of Savannah, sewing around a lot of legal

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Speaker 1: ease when he's say strike for cause. That means that

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Speaker 1: there is a legal ground that this person. Let's just

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Speaker 1: pretend it. See Jackie absolutely cannot be fair. For instance,

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Speaker 1: let's just say she is related, she's first cousins with

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Speaker 1: Alex Murdoch. Well, that's a strike for cause. I is

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Speaker 1: a state. Don't have to use one of my very

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Speaker 1: precious twenty strikes. When I was prosecuting for many, many years,

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Speaker 1: the state got ten strikes and the defendant's got twenty.

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Speaker 1: That's not fair. That said she Jack would be struck

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Speaker 1: for costs, and neither side has to use one of

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Speaker 1: their strikes. All right, here's a strike that i'd have

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Speaker 1: to use one of mine. Up. Let's just say Jack's

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Speaker 1: now a psychologist, no offense, doctor mechanic, and I look

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Speaker 1: into a little bit and I find out that her

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Speaker 1: dissertation when she got a PhD was about wrongfully convicted,

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Speaker 1: and oh, I don't want her on my jury, bye bye.

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Speaker 1: So I would have to use one of my a strike,

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Speaker 1: one of my twenty selected strikes against her to to

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Speaker 1: get her off, because the defense would really want her on.

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Speaker 1: So you've got strikes for cause, and then you've got

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Speaker 1: your twenty that you can have any reason you want

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Speaker 1: to as long as it's not unconstitutional. So correct, that's

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Speaker 1: what's happening. Matt Harris. How are the jurars? Wait, you

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Speaker 1: haven't been able to see the girars, have you, Matt? No, no,

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Speaker 1: And I want to talking about strikes just to let

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Speaker 1: you know. I believe ten for the defense, five for

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Speaker 1: the states, and unlimited for cause. As you said, so

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Speaker 1: just to strikeen that out, well, that is just not

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Speaker 1: fair to the state at all. So that is a

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Speaker 1: derivative of the schematic I had picking jurars. So the

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Speaker 1: defense gets ten strikes, the state gets five, is your understanding,

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Speaker 1: and then you can strike anybody for cause? Okay? Is

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Speaker 1: that your understanding of South Carolina jury strike? Yes? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: absolutely in a criminal matter. Obviously it changes a little

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Speaker 1: bit in civil matters with regard to who has the

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Speaker 1: burden of proof, But here the state does have the

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Speaker 1: burden of proof. And yeah, yep. Well, I'll still say

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Speaker 1: it's unfair because the defiskis twice a number of strikes

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Speaker 1: that state is. But you know what, I'll save that

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Speaker 1: argument for another day, Matt Harris. I'm about to go

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Speaker 1: to our experts, but can you tell me. There are

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Speaker 1: some major pre trial issues that the judge was hearing.

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Speaker 1: One is about blood spatter, one is about ballistics, and

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Speaker 1: one is about motive for murder, all of his financial fraud.

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Speaker 1: What can you tell me? What did the judge decide about?

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about ballistics first. What about ballistics? Okay, ballistics

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Speaker 1: would go to a big win for the States on

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Speaker 1: this one. There they found the State did evidence of

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Speaker 1: the ammunition. The shell casings that were around Maggie Murdoch

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Speaker 1: were identical in their science to ones found on the

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Speaker 1: Murdoch Moselle property at the shooting range and other areas.

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Speaker 1: They say throughout the property. Let me just let that

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Speaker 1: so can and you're telling me and jump in everybody

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Speaker 1: on the panel. Why do I have to keep telling

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Speaker 1: you this? It's not high tea at Winsor Castle with

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Speaker 1: Camilla and Charles. If you have a thought, jump in there. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So let me get a straight Matt Harris and you

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Speaker 1: know I'm going to go to Leonard Ramiro, forensic firearms

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Speaker 1: expert with ballistics firearms Expert dot com. And Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Research Institute, also a forensics

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Speaker 1: expert let me understand this map. So the State says,

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Speaker 1: we found shells, we found AMMO and cartridges around Maggie's

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Speaker 1: dead body. Right that match up to a gun that

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Speaker 1: was there on the estate. Did I get that right?

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Speaker 1: That that is correct? Yes, cartridges throughout the state. They

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Speaker 1: believe it's one of two Blackout rifles that Elec Murdoch

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Speaker 1: purchased earlier in the year. One of those. Uh. The

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Speaker 1: Defense is seeing saying is stolen, and the States is

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Speaker 1: saying it's mystic. Uh huh. I think I might know

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Speaker 1: where it is. I think I know who knows where

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Speaker 1: it is. Alex Rondog know where where is Leonard Leonard

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Speaker 1: Ramiro for forensic firearms expert. What's a blackout rifle? Let's

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Speaker 1: just start with that blackout rifle. What it is is,

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Speaker 1: it's a It looks like an AR fifteen rifle. It

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Speaker 1: was developed in two thousand and ten. It basically fires

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Speaker 1: an a K forty seven type of cartridge in it

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Speaker 1: um but it maintains the same configuration or same platform

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Speaker 1: as an AR fifteen rifle. It just has a different,

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Speaker 1: more powerful cartridge in it. And that's the It's basically

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Speaker 1: a thirty caliber rifle. But it looks like an AR fifteen.

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Speaker 1: I just be looking on the wrong end of that.

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Speaker 1: And the motion, by the way, Nancy, was the motion

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Speaker 1: was to, yeah, say that that science is provable, that

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Speaker 1: they should just stake it. But the judge letter to

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCall, you know they used to say the same

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Speaker 1: thing about fingerprints. Okay. I'm Cheryl mccaullll, forensic expert, founder

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Speaker 1: director of Coalcase Research Institute. You can find her at

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Speaker 1: Coalcase Crimes dot org and she's a Strava brand new

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Speaker 1: hit podcast And I mean to hit zone seven, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: what about this argument made by the defense that ballistic

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Speaker 1: science isn't it's a little murky, it's soupy. I can't

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Speaker 1: have an expert look under a microscope and tell if

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Speaker 1: this bulletor car just came from that. That's total bs.

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Speaker 1: It's just like a fingerprint. It is just like a

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Speaker 1: fingerprint for that rifle of shotgun, no question about it.

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Speaker 1: And the jury is going to be, you know, sophisticated

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Speaker 1: enough to understand this, Nancy. But the most compelling thing

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Speaker 1: to me is that you've got two separate weapons involved

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Speaker 1: with these murders, and you've got evidence of those two

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Speaker 1: weapons being fired on that property before the murders. And again,

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Speaker 1: people are going to be able to understand that with

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Speaker 1: no problem. I don't mean to jump in, but I'd

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Speaker 1: like to talk about that what they're going to see.

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Speaker 1: And you know juries I don't necessarily know. Very frequently

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Speaker 1: are accused of being sophisticated when it comes to science.

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Speaker 1: And at this point you got to remember that Harpullian

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Speaker 1: was a prosecutor, and not only that, he knows how

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Speaker 1: to properly cross examine a ballistics expert. And there may

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Speaker 1: be a general level of science that supports the conclusions,

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Speaker 1: but the facts that have been input to reach those

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Speaker 1: conclusions can be challenged and may be wrong, and there

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Speaker 1: are or as wrong, and there are certainly studies that

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Speaker 1: call into question at least some of the science behind

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Speaker 1: making these markings and determinations. And again, Harpoulian doesn't have

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Speaker 1: to win. All he has to do is have something

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Speaker 1: out there, a piece of admissible evidence from whence he

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Speaker 1: can draw a reasonable in print in his closing arguments

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Speaker 1: and he can shove it right down the prosecution's throat.

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Speaker 1: That's so funny you said that I was thinking of

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Speaker 1: the defense shoving it in the exact opposite direction. But

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what. We got a problem. We got

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Speaker 1: a problem. The problem is exactly what Mark take just said.

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Speaker 1: He's right high profile while you're out of Savannah. He's

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Speaker 1: try cases in this jurisdiction before he knows what he's

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Speaker 1: talking about. And he's right. Hartpoolian is the defense attorney.

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Speaker 1: He's as wildly of vromint as I've ever seen. The

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Speaker 1: state has got to be ready. This guy's a former prosecutor.

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Speaker 1: He knows every trick in the trade. And this is

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Speaker 1: what I would do. I'm telling you right now, prosecutors,

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Speaker 1: listen to me, please. I had to do this in

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Speaker 1: a fingerprint case, same thing. I had to get the

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Speaker 1: fingerprint known fingerprint of the defendant, and I had to

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Speaker 1: get the latent rent found at the murder scene. I

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Speaker 1: had to make up glossy comparisons and give one to

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Speaker 1: each like a big you know, the big postcards you

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Speaker 1: can get, not the little ones when you're at a

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Speaker 1: tourist attraction, and side by side. I put the known

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Speaker 1: and the latent and circled in red the comparisons because

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Speaker 1: my fingerprint analysis was under fire. That's what they need

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Speaker 1: to do. With this ballistics. Cheryl got mad me on this.

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute. They need to get the known cartridge

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Speaker 1: or bullet, and they need to put it under the

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Speaker 1: microscope and show the striation marks, in other words, the

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Speaker 1: little marks that only one gun in the world will

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Speaker 1: leave on the bullet as it hurdles down the barrel

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Speaker 1: at high speed. Then they need to get the questionable

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Speaker 1: one under a microscope, put them both on a little

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Speaker 1: card where the jurors can see. Yeah, that's the same

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Speaker 1: gun he's jumping in. Is that, Sheryl me? This is no,

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Speaker 1: this is doctor. Here's the problem that we don't have.

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Speaker 1: We don't have the actual gun that fired that bullet.

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Speaker 1: We have one gun, Matt Harris, don't we have one gun? Yes,

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Speaker 1: but that's the problem. And if we're talking about a shotgun,

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Speaker 1: they have a smooth bore, they don't cause rifling marks

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Speaker 1: on the bullet. And secondly, if we're just looking at

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Speaker 1: the shell casing itself, that's all we'd have to go

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Speaker 1: with it, and we'd have to go with that um

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Speaker 1: that firing pin mark and objector mark or something of

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Speaker 1: that nature to compare it to. And we don't have

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Speaker 1: anything positively to compare it to I hear you doctor

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Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree joining me. She literally wrote the book Homicide Investigation.

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Speaker 1: Field Guy, Matt Harris, don't we have one of the guns,

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Speaker 1: the shotgun which with the bird shot and the buckshot

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Speaker 1: that killed Paul, that one which won't have rifling marks

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Speaker 1: on it? Well, guess what you're right? What with the

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Speaker 1: blackout gun? What they can do, because there's two. My

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Speaker 1: understanding is there's two possible blackout guns that are there,

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Speaker 1: of which one is missing, like y'all just mentioned. What

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Speaker 1: they can do is they can take the cartridge cases

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Speaker 1: they were fined on the property and any cartridges unfired

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Speaker 1: cartridges and compare them and to see if they were

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Speaker 1: cycled through the same firearm. What they could say is

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Speaker 1: all of those cartridge cases were fired in one gun,

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Speaker 1: and those cartridges were cycled in the same gun as

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Speaker 1: those ones that were fired. For the shot shells, what

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Speaker 1: they're going to have to do is just look at

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Speaker 1: the shelves and look at the firing pin impressions, and

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Speaker 1: look at the holes and look at any ejection marks

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Speaker 1: on those. Of course, you know their pellets, and the

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Speaker 1: pellets are consistent with the shot shells that were found. Guys,

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Speaker 1: you're hearing Leonard Romero twenty three years experience is a

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Speaker 1: firearms examiner. I didn't mean interrupt you go ahead, Leonard.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, ma'am, no problem. Yeah. So what they're gonna do,

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Speaker 1: my understanding is basically they can tell what the caliber

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Speaker 1: or the gun is from the stamp on the cartridge case.

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Speaker 1: So they know what the caliber is, Okay, they can

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Speaker 1: go ahead and compare the fired cartridge cases to each

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Speaker 1: other to see if they were fired from the same firearm.

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Speaker 1: If there's any unfired cartridges on the property or within

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Speaker 1: his residence, or within anything of his person that they recovered,

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Speaker 1: they could look to see if there were cycling marks

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Speaker 1: on though. Okay, when you say cycling marks, that's the

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Speaker 1: same evidence as being relied on in the Delphi double

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Speaker 1: murrer cases of Abbey and Libby. Hold On, Sheryl McCallum,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna circle back to you because Delphi is your

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Speaker 1: Bailly way, but I want you to hear our cut

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Speaker 1: a from Anne Amerson. Yesterday was a day that or

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Speaker 1: we literally got to have some witness on the stand.

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Speaker 1: We got our first witness on the stand and it

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Speaker 1: was Paul Greer. He was sled and they wanted to

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Speaker 1: see if they could bring him in as an expert

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Speaker 1: on ballistics, and that was what this hearing was about yesterday.

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Speaker 1: They wanted to see if Greer could be brought in

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Speaker 1: to discuss ballistics because that is a critical part of

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Speaker 1: the evidence for the prosecution. Now Greer is talking about

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Speaker 1: the shell casings and about a rifle, a rifle that

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Speaker 1: the state is trying to link to Maggie Murdochs especially

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Speaker 1: Now the problem with this, of course, is they don't

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Speaker 1: have a murder weapon, but what they do have are

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Speaker 1: shell casings that have markings on them. And those shell

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Speaker 1: casings were found at Maggie's body, as well as a

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Speaker 1: range where they shoot guns on that property and in

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Speaker 1: the gun room where Paul Murdoch's body was found as well.

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Speaker 1: So those cartridges by Maggie's body match cartridge is found

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Speaker 1: at the gun range on the same estate and inside

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Speaker 1: the house. So that's how we know it was a

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Speaker 1: Murdoch gun. And what the two people one shot one

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Speaker 1: and then the other shot themselves and then they hid

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Speaker 1: the bullet, hid the gun. No, the perp had the

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Speaker 1: Murdoch weapon and got rid of it. Whoever that perp

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Speaker 1: may be. And take a listen to more from Anne

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Speaker 1: Emerson WCIV. This explains it all. The important thing about

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Speaker 1: this is that we don't have that murder weapon, but

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Speaker 1: we have these shell casings that can talk about the

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Speaker 1: signature of a gun. So what they did is they

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Speaker 1: went in and they shot test fired a blackout rifle

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Speaker 1: which was the same gun as the one that they

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Speaker 1: think killed Maggie, and they fired it and they had

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Speaker 1: these tests done with the shell casings and came to

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Speaker 1: a conclusion, at least on some of these shell casings

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Speaker 1: that they were a match with what they think is

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Speaker 1: the missing blackout rifle. So right now this is critical

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Speaker 1: evidence for the persecution to move forward. And they were

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Speaker 1: allowed to bring in that expert witness and that was

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Speaker 1: a bit of a blow for the defense. So we're

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Speaker 1: going to see how they handle all of this gun

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Speaker 1: evidence that's going to be coming in probably very quickly.

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Speaker 1: Sharon McCollum, that made perfect sense to me. Of course,

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Speaker 1: it makes perfect sense. It's logical. And I remember you

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Speaker 1: as a young prosecutor telling a jury when evidence was

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Speaker 1: missing that this person should know where it was, such

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Speaker 1: as a blackout weapon. Don't reward him for being a

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Speaker 1: good criminal. Just because he's gotten rid of this weapon

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Speaker 1: is not going to absolve him. To me, having the

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Speaker 1: exact same type of evidence in other places on that property,

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Speaker 1: such as the range where he's practicing shooting, is an

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Speaker 1: incredible piece of evidence. Joining me is Mendy beat Mechanic,

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Speaker 1: Professor Psychology Emeritus, California State University, Fullerton, forensic psychologist, doctor Mechanic,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us yesterday and today. Alex

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Speaker 1: and murdog on trial for a double murder, was saying

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Speaker 1: smiling and smiling and even smirking in front of the jury,

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Speaker 1: the jury pool. What do you make of that? I'm

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Speaker 1: surprised his lawyers didn't admonish him to keep a neutral face.

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Speaker 1: My understanding some defense attorneys I've worked with it is

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Speaker 1: that they always talk to their clients about keeping neutral,

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Speaker 1: not looking disgusted, not looking angry, certainly not smirking. So

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine that he couldn't help himself. You know,

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Speaker 1: he looks a lot different than he did with his

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Speaker 1: shaved head and his little band aid on his head

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Speaker 1: where he said he had a botched suicide attempt. Time

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Matt Harris joining me from formerly

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Speaker 1: w s OCTV, now radio host and star of the

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Speaker 1: Murdoch Family Murders Impact of Influence podcast. So, Matt Harris,

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Speaker 1: not only is there the issue of ballistics, which we've explained,

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Speaker 1: but there's also blood spatter evidence and I'm referring specifically

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Speaker 1: to Alex Murdock's clothing the night of the murders. What

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Speaker 1: is the evidence we're talking about, and what, if any,

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Speaker 1: was the judge's ruling as to whether it will come

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Speaker 1: in or be deemed inadmissible. Okay, the blood spatter the

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Speaker 1: issue there is the expert Tom Beble originally said okay,

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Speaker 1: we can't tell econclusive the sled agents went to him

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Speaker 1: with a better picture of said blood spattered shirt. He

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Speaker 1: changed his conclusion. Harpuleian and the defense team is saying, well,

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Speaker 1: he was basically bullied into changing that a ruling or

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Speaker 1: that discovery, and so it shouldn't hold up. They also

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Speaker 1: had the issue of the shirt has been destroyed due

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Speaker 1: to all the testing that has taken place, so the

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Speaker 1: defense cannot have their own people do the scientific study

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Speaker 1: of the shirt. So what Judge Newman has said is

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Speaker 1: I'm not ruling it completely out. What we will do

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Speaker 1: is on a base a case by case, argument by

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Speaker 1: argument basis, he will make the ruling whether it is

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Speaker 1: allowed in or not. So that's really going to be

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Speaker 1: a fluid situation as the trial goes on. So what

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Speaker 1: do you make of the potential blood spatter evidence and

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Speaker 1: the controversy swirling around it? To forensics expert Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Research Institute, what about it,

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Speaker 1: Cheryl Nancy, They're gonna look at it for high velocity

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Speaker 1: and that's little bitty tiny specks, and they're going to say,

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Speaker 1: this guy was close when the fire, you know, the

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Speaker 1: weapon was fired. That is not a smudge. That is

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Speaker 1: not something where he knelt down and got blood on

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Speaker 1: him because he was looking for signs of life. That

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Speaker 1: happened because he was standing there when that weapon was fired, period,

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Speaker 1: And a photograph will show high velocity versus low velocity

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Speaker 1: by itself. I remember their long guns, both of these,

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Speaker 1: which they talked about. We talked to the long long guns,

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Speaker 1: which of course, you know put you a little bit

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Speaker 1: of distance away anyway. And there was some transfer blood

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Speaker 1: on the bottom of the shirt. The spatter up a

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Speaker 1: little high good point. To doctor Michelle Dupre forensic pathologists

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Speaker 1: former detective doctor Dupree, The defense motion is referring to

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Speaker 1: a blood spatter blood on a white T shirt Alex

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Speaker 1: Murdoch wore the night his wife and son were murdered.

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Speaker 1: Murdoch's team is arguing the blood expert should not be

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Speaker 1: allowed to testify because the T shirt was ruined or

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Speaker 1: used up during forensic testing. They are also claiming an

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Speaker 1: expert first said that it was a transfer mark that

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Speaker 1: Murdoch may have gotten when he reached down to touch

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Speaker 1: Maggie or Paul, but upon close examination, for instance, under

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Speaker 1: a microscope, that actually blood spatter is visible. What is

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Speaker 1: the difference and why is it important, doctor Michelle Dupree,

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Speaker 1: between transfer and spatter fnancy. Transfer means, of course that

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Speaker 1: you touch something and then you transport for it to

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Speaker 1: your clothing, which would be absolutely reasonable if he were

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Speaker 1: checking on the checking on the person to see if

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Speaker 1: they were so alive or not. Spatter, however, is very different.

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Speaker 1: Spatter comes from actually shooting a weapon close to someone

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Speaker 1: and getting that back spatter from that person. So if

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Speaker 1: that is the case, that would be very damning for him.

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Speaker 1: The other thing is that they actually found the blood

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Speaker 1: spatter they're talking about is up by the shoulders. It's

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Speaker 1: not down at the bottom as Bath said, So you know,

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Speaker 1: there are at least three locations that is not consistent

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Speaker 1: with transfer. In addition to that, they actually found three

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Speaker 1: gunshot residue particles on the shirt that he was wearing,

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Speaker 1: and those are absolutely definitive that he was in contact

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Speaker 1: with a gun very recently. So why are they not asking,

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Speaker 1: you know, asking about that. Where did that gunshot residue

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Speaker 1: come from? Did he hold a gun that day? If so,

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Speaker 1: where is it you tell us about it? Nothing has

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Speaker 1: been said about that. Well, the one thing they did

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Speaker 1: mention was and I don't know if this puts gun

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Speaker 1: residue on you, but they said, when found the bodies,

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Speaker 1: he went back to his house after he called nine

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Speaker 1: one to get a gun in case the truder was

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Speaker 1: still around or whatever. So I don't know if just

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Speaker 1: picking up the gun from the house would get that,

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Speaker 1: but he mentioned that. Yeah, it's very it's called primer

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Speaker 1: gunshot residue. And you're going to come up with three conclusions.

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Speaker 1: One that the individual was in close proximity to a

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Speaker 1: gun that was being fired, the individual fired a gun,

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Speaker 1: or the individual was in an environment where there were

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Speaker 1: gunshot residue particles. So it's very easily transferable. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you're picking up ammunition or you're handling a gun,

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Speaker 1: you can pick it up. What's interesting here is was

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Speaker 1: there any back spatter on the muzzle of the gun

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Speaker 1: the rifle that was used. I don't know if there

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Speaker 1: was any blood that was detected, or was there any

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Speaker 1: distance determination on the clothing that was looked at to

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Speaker 1: see if there's a possibility that they can do a

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Speaker 1: muscle to target distance determination. I know there's no rifle

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Speaker 1: you would need that to do that, but you can

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Speaker 1: look under even though the clothing is heavily blooded. You

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Speaker 1: can look under an IR photograph and see if there

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Speaker 1: is a discernible pattern there to give you a We

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Speaker 1: do know that there was stiplink. Yeah, there was stiplingk,

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Speaker 1: which is a contact one. Guys. We also learned from

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Speaker 1: motions yesterday detailed information that we didn't know before about

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Speaker 1: how Maggie and her son, Paul Murnov were murdered. Reports

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Speaker 1: from the state's crime scene expert concluded that twenty two

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Speaker 1: year old Paul was standing in the so called feed

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Speaker 1: room of the dog kennels. When he was shot in

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Speaker 1: the chest and the head, he stumbled forward before he

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Speaker 1: was shot the second time in the head. Maggie, however,

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Speaker 1: took five bullets gunshot wounds, including a fatal gunshot wound

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Speaker 1: to the head. Now, based on what we know about

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Speaker 1: bullet casing patterns and other analysis, we learn that Maggie

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Speaker 1: and the shooter were both moving when Maggie was murdered.

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Speaker 1: Maggie was shot six times, five and then the final

427
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 1: shot to the head. Now, let's just think about that

428
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: for a moment. To Cheryl McCollum and to Bark Tate,

429
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: I'll start with you, Mark Tate, high profile lawyer out

430
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: of Savannah. That means just one thing. Maggie Murdoch was

431
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 1: running for her life. She was shot six times, including

432
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: in the head. It's absolutely yeah, it's a horrible, horrible

433
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: thing to hear, and the jury is going to hear

434
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 1: the absolute details of the horror of what kind of

435
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 1: a person would shoot their child twice in the chest

436
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: and then you know, once in the head. And by

437
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: the way, what an excellent shot. That's a guy, you know.

438
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: Apparently there were new casings found that were missed. This

439
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 1: is this guy's a good shot and then was able

440
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: to maintain the you know, the resolute nature needed to

441
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: chase down his wife and shotgun her to death. Oh.

442
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 1: I appreciate you complimenting the shooter. I got what a

443
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: great shot he is. Now I don't now, I don't

444
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: he was shooting his wife a close range. Absolutely to

445
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: do that. It's hard to believe that a father would

446
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: do that to his son or mother. And I think

447
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: that's what Prpulian is going to seize on to make

448
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: a jury. Wonder do you recall the moment in Harry

449
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: Potter where the belief Olivander, who owned the wand store, said, um, yeah,

450
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: valdemort was terrible, but he did great things. Kind of

451
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: sounds like what Mark Tates saying. I don't like it.

452
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty cool to bring Harry Potter and

453
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: Valdemot into this whole thing, because you know, I agree

454
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: with your analogy. That's a brilliant thinking on your feet

455
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: analogy to come up with, Nancy amount of sucking up

456
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: well from my mind that you complimented the killer being

457
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: a quote great shot. Okay, that said, that's one of

458
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: the ballistics. Guys, is that a good shot? That's not

459
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 1: a Navice shooter. It's just not be Everybody on this

460
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: panel lost their mind. Okay, I think Matt Harris helped

461
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: me out what's going to happen today, Matt. They will

462
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: hopefully wrap up the jury situation and find their jurors

463
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: and alternative and then after lunch at some point they

464
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: will get into and begin their opening an argument, and

465
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: then we'll be off and running and this trial that

466
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: we've waited till long or time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys.

467
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: People are coming from all around literally hundreds and hundreds

468
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 1: of miles away to see the Merlin trial. One thing

469
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: that remains to be seen as to whether this is

470
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: jury will ever find out about motive evidence. Take a

471
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: listen to our cut one four four our friends at

472
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: w CSC when it comes to the financial crimes. Though

473
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: Judge Clifton Newman has ruled in that case, the state

474
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: was trying to get that evidence introduced what they call

475
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: in linemen, which Judge Newman says is basically what typically

476
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: is used to take away evidence. But the seat is

477
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: wanting to introduce it, and he just did not feel comfortable.

478
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 1: So the seat did agree to introduce that evidence as

479
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: it was needed once trial actually starts. It's actually called

480
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 1: emotion in lemanee. Emotion in lemony, and what that is

481
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: is you believe the other side is going to introduce

482
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: evidence that you believe is should be disallowed. So you

483
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: have a motion in lemony, which means before it can happen,

484
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: you want the judge to rule against it. What about it?

485
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: Straight out to you, Mark Tape, Well, the judges agreed

486
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: to hold that in a base answer, hold any ruling

487
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,000
Speaker 1: on that until he hears some evidence. I believe that's proper,

488
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: and I think Harpoolian strategically smart. Obviously, I'm going to

489
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 1: get his contact information in case, you know, you decide

490
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 1: to come after me over my complimenting Murdo and his

491
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: shooting ability. But you know, I think it's a smart

492
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: move from the defense side to try to keep the

493
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: evidence out. And I think that you should count on

494
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: account on the fact that if it comes in once again,

495
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: Harpoolian knows how to cause that evidence to dissemble and

496
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: each and every argument, if you want a clue, how

497
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: he's going to cross examine the expert who is going

498
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: to put that evidence in for the prosecution. If we

499
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: want a clue on how Harpoolian is going to try

500
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 1: to dismantle and discredit that testimony, take a look at

501
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: his motion and limited to exclude it, and he will

502
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: have in there all of the arguments that he has

503
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: that show that it's inadmissible or should be inadmissible, and

504
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: he'll use that to attack that attack that witness, except

505
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: he'll do it with the Harpulian, lifelong prosecutor, defense lawyers, politician,

506
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: and smooth operator in South Carolina's skill to dismantle an

507
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: expert on the standard. And Nancy, I think, as you know,

508
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: and as we've mentioned Yi earlier in the broadcast, that

509
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: the prosecution does not have to have motive. However, I

510
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: think the state wants to show motive so they can

511
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: bring in the prior bad deed. I would want to

512
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: bring in motive to explain to a jury why a

513
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 1: man would kill his wife and his own son, and

514
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: speaking a financial motive. Take a listen to one four

515
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: six from WYF. Prosecutors believe Murdock's financial crimes were to

516
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: be exposed the friday before the murder, thus fueling a motive.

517
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: He had been stealing for over a decade, ninety nine

518
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: counts to date, and facing essentially life without role on

519
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 1: these particular financial accounts. And that's the significance of what

520
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 1: he was trying to prevent from being exposed. His theory,

521
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: and this is sort of is that he knew the

522
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: jig was up, so he went home and butchered, blew

523
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 1: the head off his son, and butchered his wife. There's

524
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 1: not one shred of evidence there was any problems between

525
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 1: any of them, really, because that's not what we have

526
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: been told. Matt Harris. Isn't it true that Maggie had

527
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: been meeting with a divorce lawyer? If it is true,

528
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure there was at least forensic accountant

529
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: as part of a divorce than going on, I don't know.

530
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 1: It's never going to be appearing before the jury because

531
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 1: no attorney or accountant has come forward with that information.

532
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: I think what will be important is the Snapchat video

533
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 1: that Paul sent his friend in a couple hours before

534
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: the murder. Maybe there's some mention it up there. Also,

535
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: Buster the other Sun is used as a witness, so

536
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: maybe he'll be asked about that. Otherwise, I don't know

537
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,960
Speaker 1: what the state has up its sleeve to prove there

538
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: was some marital discord. And I don't think the state

539
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: is going in that direction anyway. They're they're going into

540
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: acutely just throwing it out there so he can mentioned

541
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: everybody that it was a great marriage. He's the state

542
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: is going in the direction of he did this to

543
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: delay being found out that he had ripped off all

544
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: these people. Maybe do a shell game somebody around. He

545
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: would never get caught, get a lot of sympathy, and

546
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: the bright shining light would not be on it for

547
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 1: a little while. That the state motive not because the

548
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 1: marriage must messed up, because he just needed to try

549
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 1: to figure out how to just keep pushing of the

550
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: day of reckoning down the line a little bit. Guys,

551
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: financial disaster claims of stealing millions and millions of dollars

552
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,919
Speaker 1: from his clients. It was all about to explode. Why

553
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 1: because one thing, and one thing only, the death of

554
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: a beautiful teen girl named Mallory Beach. Guys, what do

555
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 1: we know about what Mallory Beach's case has to do

556
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 1: with this murder case? To you, Matt Harris, explain how

557
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: Mallory Beach is boating death at the hands of a

558
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: murdog has anything to do with this murder trial. Well,

559
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 1: they could bring this up, so they can bring it in,

560
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: which is that two days after the murders, it was

561
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: supposed to be a hearing on the beach lawsuit against

562
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: Paul and Maggie and Nellick and a number of others

563
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: where it was going to be decided how much financial

564
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: information documentation would have to be turned over. So the

565
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: state has said that along with the fact that this

566
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: morning of the murder, one of his co workers at

567
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 1: the law firm confronted him on this smissing huge check

568
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: from Chris Wilson, another attorney, it was showing that it

569
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 1: was starting to bubble up. The gig was up, and

570
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,200
Speaker 1: this the hearing that was going to happen because of

571
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: the beach death and the boating fatality, that was another

572
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: reason that thing's going to start to come to light.

573
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: So state's going to bring that in a showing Hey,

574
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: well that was thrown out as soon as the murders happened.

575
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: That motion was kicked away. Take a listen to our

576
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: cut one three six our friends from NBC. One possible

577
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 1: piece of evidence that jurors will need to take into

578
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: account a Snapchat video taken just before Paul and Maggie

579
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: Murdoch were killed. As jurors are vetted inside outside an

580
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: invasion of cameras, tense and trucks on every corner of

581
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: the courthouse, eyes wide as a man who once trying

582
00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 1: cases here as a prominent attorney, awaits his fate in handcuffs.

583
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,279
Speaker 1: That snapchat was sent at about seven fifty six. Out

584
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: to you, Matt Harris. Do we know the content of

585
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: the snap No, we do not. I know that they

586
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: have the poenut and put somebody on the witness list

587
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 1: from Snapchat to tell us what that is all about.

588
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 1: We have heard about a video at eight forty four

589
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: that Paul and Maggie and Alec are in, which was

590
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: a video where Paul was showing one of the animals

591
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: in the kennel was injured. He was sending it to

592
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: his friend because they were taking care of that dog.

593
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 1: Now Hartfoodley and has said, oh they were. This will

594
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: prove that they were just chumming it up. I've heard

595
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: otherwise that it wasn't that chummy chummy. So I've interested

596
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:57,680
Speaker 1: what's on the snapchat because you know, we have to

597
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: imagine if it's being used that Paul had to be

598
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 1: saying something about Elec or the marriage, or why Maggie

599
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: showed up there that night to have dinner, because she

600
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 1: was somewhat suspicious. According to reports, she said to her friends,

601
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: wis wanting to meet me because she lived. She was

602
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: living in Edisto, which is like an hour and a

603
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: half away, right And according to her friends, Maggie said

604
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: that Alex Murdog convinced her to come there a guesst

605
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: her better judgment to go visit his father because the

606
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: dad was about to pass away. That she said, quote,

607
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: something fishy is up. I wonder what Alex is up to.

608
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: She was very very leery of going. Now tell me

609
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: again who was in the video on the video at

610
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 1: the eight forty four I don't know about the snapchat

611
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 1: video Snapchat videos between Paul and some friends. The eight

612
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 1: forty four video is Eleck, Maggie and Paul, and that

613
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 1: is at eight forty four and then at nine oh six,

614
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,760
Speaker 1: that is when he alleged to leave that his truck started.

615
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: He leaves so that the window right there and in

616
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: that video, from what I've been told, it is a

617
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: video of Paul showing the dog. But you can hear

618
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 1: Paul and Maggie Elec talking and that's just moments before

619
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: the murder would have occurred. Murders, But I thought Alex

620
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 1: Murdog told nine one one he had just gotten there

621
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: and found the dead bodies. With that video you're referring

622
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 1: to wild show that he had been there earlier. Yes,

623
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: and he left to go see his mother about a

624
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: fifteen to twenty minute drive away, and they said that

625
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: twenty minutes and then came home. Originally, originally we had

626
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 1: heard he was not there. He was not there, and

627
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: all that day that he just showed up a nine

628
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,879
Speaker 1: of six. Turns out they all had dinner together that evening, Paul,

629
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 1: Maggie and Aleck. We wait for the jury to be

630
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: seated and just as unfold. Goodbye friend,