Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.
Speaker 1: Today's episode is powered by tdm or Trade. Every stroke
Speaker 1: counts on the scorecard and every penny counts in the market.
Speaker 1: That's why tdam ror Trade is committed to straightforward pricing
Speaker 1: with no surprises, so you're free to swing with confidence.
Speaker 1: Visit tdomritrade dot com slash Fried Egg member SIPC. We
Speaker 1: are back with another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.
Speaker 1: Today's episode is part two of our most recent conversation
Speaker 1: with up and coming golf architect Jaeger Kovich.
Speaker 2: So if you missed part one, check it out. It
Speaker 2: was released last week.
Speaker 1: We talked a ton about how Yaeger got into the
Speaker 1: profession of golf architecture, playing golf around New York and
Speaker 1: aw Tilling cast. In this edition, we go over Yaeger's
Speaker 1: Mount Rushmore, We bring back Overrated, Underrated. There's all kinds
Speaker 1: of good stuff in this half of the podcast. Really
Speaker 1: appreciate the time from Yaeger. He also has been writing
Speaker 1: a ton for the website. Him and Clyde Johnson have
Speaker 1: been doing the Eclectic eighteen of the UK. Highly recommend
Speaker 1: checking it out. This week we will be hitting hole sixteen.
Speaker 1: So if you haven't read any of them, you got
Speaker 1: a lot of reading ahead and they do a really
Speaker 1: great job breaking down each hole one through eighteen, all
Speaker 1: different holes from different golf courses around the UK. So
Speaker 1: definitely check that out on the website, Thefrida Egg dot com.
Speaker 2: And here's part two of jaeger Kovid I.
Speaker 1: Miss the green for example, I'm already upset when I
Speaker 1: find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a.
Speaker 3: Brid egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida Egg,
Speaker 3: Frida egg Egg Frida egg, bride egg Lie.
Speaker 1: I'm about ready to run.
Speaker 2: Off of the hump course.
Speaker 1: We've talked Telling hast and we've talked Tom Simpson. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm assuming those two would be on.
Speaker 2: Your Mount Rushmore.
Speaker 1: Four guys, if you had to do four, it would
Speaker 1: be the other two. If you I don't want to
Speaker 1: put either of those guys on, if you don't think
Speaker 1: they deserve to be on there.
Speaker 3: Uh, I don't know. I guess this is I love
Speaker 3: sports talk radio, and this is like the classic you know,
Speaker 3: Mount Mount Rushmore question.
Speaker 2: Mount Rushmore. It's it's I asked it to so many people.
Speaker 3: I just I'd probably put Tom on there his influence
Speaker 3: with the writing and and just not just his golf courses,
Speaker 3: which the portfolio turtainly speaks for itself and probably belongs
Speaker 3: on there just because of that. But I think the
Speaker 3: impact and that with the the books, both the Anatomy
Speaker 3: and the Conventional guid and just showing people were trying
Speaker 3: to the modern day. Yeah, sort of. It just shows
Speaker 3: you how how many great golf courses there are around
Speaker 3: the world that people didn't really know about, and you know,
Speaker 3: people are going all over the place to see them
Speaker 3: because you know, he put these places on the sort
Speaker 3: of map. Again, I think that impact that way is
Speaker 3: is pretty enormous. Plus, you know, and.
Speaker 1: Writing about restoration like and like how many clubs did
Speaker 1: he write like this could be great if it was restored,
Speaker 1: like and then it led those clubs to actually do something.
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm, we're just the The Anatomy too, is just
Speaker 3: you know, it's just a perfect book to give to
Speaker 3: like your green chair or something like that. Right, it's
Speaker 3: like one on one. It's you know, not the super
Speaker 3: old English like the old guys, but it's it's in
Speaker 3: very easy to understand, well, at least I think so.
Speaker 3: But I think even the just a guy that's really
Speaker 3: interested in the golf can probably read that architectural book,
Speaker 3: and I mean learn a gazillion things from it too,
Speaker 3: even though if they don't understand everything, there'll be parts
Speaker 3: they take and then they'll play more and more, and
Speaker 3: if you pick it up five years later, you probably
Speaker 3: learn something totally new too.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Always recommend that or Shackleford's Grounds for Golf. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: I actually love the Little Red Book too.
Speaker 2: That was neat. It's really easy for people with like
Speaker 2: ad D like me.
Speaker 3: Or if you grew up on golf cob baalist, I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I remember that thread. I remember yeah too, right, that's
Speaker 3: how I took it out reply those are good too.
Speaker 3: He shockingly likes like emojis on there too, which is
Speaker 3: kind of funny.
Speaker 2: It's kind of fun noil Core likes emojis too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like who guy doesn't have email, but he loves
Speaker 3: the text is pretty funny.
Speaker 1: It is.
Speaker 2: It is funny. It's it's really funny. It doesn't even
Speaker 2: know how to use the Internet, but.
Speaker 3: It's funny too because he's like, you know the last
Speaker 3: He's like hey, hi here, this is like do you like?
Speaker 3: He's like, are you comfortable texting? I'm like, I'm thirty three, man, like, yeah,
Speaker 3: I can do this. But there there were a while. Uh,
Speaker 3: I mean he's a candidate too for sure, right, I
Speaker 3: don't know. I mean Mackenzie would probably be on there
Speaker 3: with the Continental stuff just all over the globe. That's
Speaker 3: a pretty important one too. How many is that? That's
Speaker 3: is that four? If we have Tilly on there?
Speaker 2: Are you booting Tilly?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't you can don't feel like you have to
Speaker 2: have him on there.
Speaker 3: Well we'll leave it for now. I mean you could
Speaker 3: put I have a total fascination with Walter Travis courses
Speaker 3: as well. He would probably be a candidate for me.
Speaker 3: I probably wouldn't have Ross over Tilly. I think Tilly's
Speaker 3: best work is sort of a step of like the
Speaker 3: whole chunk of that a level. Tilly stuff I think
Speaker 3: is a little over that that sort of class from Ross.
Speaker 3: I think Ross has some like a top three or five,
Speaker 3: which you are up there, but after that it's kind
Speaker 3: of you know that that sort of perfect. Every every
Speaker 3: community has to have one of those Donald Ross courses,
Speaker 3: which is awesome, right. The volume that's.
Speaker 1: The tricky thing to weigh, is like the prolificness, but.
Speaker 3: It's important, and you know, I guess this is a
Speaker 3: good question for you. I mean, you could questionably have
Speaker 3: you know, Trent Jones on there just because of what
Speaker 3: he did business wise to the thing. I mean, you
Speaker 3: could have it all. M hmm, exactly. That was the
Speaker 3: next one from the UK, or I mean old Tom
Speaker 3: or like those you know, the guys that were just
Speaker 3: finding the like, you know, if you wanted to go
Speaker 3: with that, Old Tom's resume is pretty damn good too, right.
Speaker 2: So would you.
Speaker 1: Let's take like Tom Simpson career mhm? Or I don't
Speaker 1: nobody's ever going to be Donald Ross, but like say,
Speaker 1: say you did instead of what Tom Sims's twenty courses
Speaker 1: something like that. George Thomas would be another one that's
Speaker 1: in that same bucket.
Speaker 3: There's a guy that you know, there's another candidate for you.
Speaker 1: But yeah, would you rather have like that type of
Speaker 1: career where or or a like three times as many
Speaker 1: but not have as good the great ones, like not
Speaker 1: have as many great ones all?
Speaker 3: Really, you know, I'm just trying to have a career.
Speaker 2: I understand that, but you know, I'm just curious. I
Speaker 2: never really thought, I.
Speaker 3: It's such a different business now it is. You know,
Speaker 3: there's there's nobody. I can't see any scenario where anybody's
Speaker 3: going to have anything close to that, right, So in
Speaker 3: scaled reality, you know, if if anyone you know, start
Speaker 3: the clocks now does like forty or fifty courses in
Speaker 3: their career, it's going to be insane, right, depends a lot,
Speaker 3: it is, you know, even if like you know, like
Speaker 3: we get you know, it's changed in the last five years.
Speaker 3: But historically if you look at say it like Gills,
Speaker 3: like Gill, he didn't he doesn't have like the world's
Speaker 3: longest list of new courses. Certainly the last five ten
Speaker 3: years would probably you know, you it's fresher in your
Speaker 3: minds the new things, and they're prevalent and they're all awesome,
Speaker 3: but it's the business has changed, and it took years
Speaker 3: and years and years of great renovation, restoration and the
Speaker 3: odd really cool new courses he built. But to get
Speaker 3: to that point, it's so hard to tell. Now, I'd
Speaker 3: be I'm just hoping to do one, honestly, it would
Speaker 3: be it would be amazing to just do one right now,
Speaker 3: and I'm probably not even gonna you know, who knows
Speaker 3: what that property is going to be. Like, so it's impossible.
Speaker 1: I think it because like this is a conversation that
Speaker 1: you have about tour golfers, like would you rather be
Speaker 1: the guy that has, like, you know, the twenty five
Speaker 1: year career but doesn't win a ton or a guy
Speaker 1: that wins you know, a lot, but a shorter career,
Speaker 1: like you know, it's like that that it's a crazy
Speaker 1: thing because like I don't know, that's that's kind of
Speaker 1: what spurned my thought.
Speaker 3: Could could like Clayton Kershaw, right, you did the best
Speaker 3: renovation restorations of all time, but when you get the
Speaker 3: new stuff, it just doesn't add up and it doesn't translate,
Speaker 3: you know, right, Sorry Shackleford.
Speaker 2: That's a good. That's a good. I like that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Clayton kershaw it's a yeah. I don't know, it's a
Speaker 2: I agree because.
Speaker 3: Then I just I just don't want to be the
Speaker 3: Mets or the Cup true, right.
Speaker 2: The cups are worse, but we've been good lately.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's I yeah, in your position, you get
Speaker 1: getting the first one is the toughest thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then after that it feels like getting the
Speaker 3: second one because so you're not just the you know
Speaker 3: one time, you know, you got lucky one time, you
Speaker 3: know you can you did something, you did something good,
Speaker 3: good enough that someone wants to work, you know, wants
Speaker 3: to use you. We get right, that's okay, It wasn't
Speaker 3: fluke kind of thing. You know at supplants, you know,
Speaker 3: anyone can get lucky ones. I guess it's.
Speaker 1: It's the development world too.
Speaker 2: It's it's so hard at this point.
Speaker 1: I think developers that the you know, they're in this
Speaker 1: position where they almost feel like there's not too much
Speaker 1: work for the top guys, so like they're always available,
Speaker 1: and they think like, oh, why wouldn't we not? Why
Speaker 1: would we Like there's no risk in hiring you know,
Speaker 1: Gil Tom or Bill, you know Bill, like you're.
Speaker 3: Getting the highest quality stuff every time, and.
Speaker 2: There's just no there's no a smart, safe choice.
Speaker 1: But you know, when Mike Kaiser changed and everything when
Speaker 1: he hired David Kidd, David Kidd was an extremely risky hire.
Speaker 1: And it's it's just a fascinating thing because at that
Speaker 1: time there was so much development going on that you
Speaker 1: could well, like Fasio is going to be so busy
Speaker 1: that this wouldn't he wouldn't spend a ton of time here,
Speaker 1: like and that's not the case right now, which is
Speaker 1: a very interesting thing.
Speaker 3: For the uh we were talking about that earlier with
Speaker 3: the restoration stuff and the consulting. Right, you know, imagine
Speaker 3: being twenty seven and being hired at the at piping Rock, right,
Speaker 3: you know, it's uh cool, awesome, all right, Yeah, we
Speaker 3: can do that, and that doesn't happen anymore, uh, you know,
Speaker 3: it not to someone sort of that unproven. Even then
Speaker 3: it takes a lot, you know, a lot more experience,
Speaker 3: and you know, it's cool because it lets you know,
Speaker 3: you know, I know, I can go look for things
Speaker 3: with like a huge amount of potential and try to
Speaker 3: you know that, right. That's the thing is you kind
Speaker 3: of like look to make a little bit of that
Speaker 3: sort of dent by taking something that could be really
Speaker 3: awesome and showing people that because it's the stuff that's
Speaker 3: really close, you know, it's probably someone's already working there
Speaker 3: at this point. Yeah, the stuff that everybody's heard of,
Speaker 3: it's already been restored exactly for the most part, there's
Speaker 3: still some that need it. I'll tell you where you
Speaker 3: you know, the Wisconsin, so many courses up there just
Speaker 3: are desperate need of tree removal. There's pointing around here too.
Speaker 3: It's just like what you were talking about, Earl's a
Speaker 3: lot more expensive to get out here.
Speaker 2: Yeah take the trees out.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: How much nicer is it working at home as opposed
Speaker 1: to it's pretty sweet?
Speaker 3: It really doesn't happen very often, but it's it's it's
Speaker 3: a most weird a little bit because it's like there's
Speaker 3: there's other things going on at home, and when you're
Speaker 3: on the road, like you can be really laser focused, right,
Speaker 3: there's no there's nothing else to do at some of
Speaker 3: these places, and you're just there with the crew and
Speaker 3: the guys, and all you're doing is talking about golf
Speaker 3: and that project and how to make that better and
Speaker 3: better and all that stuff, and you're taking in that culture.
Speaker 3: But when you're at home, it's it. You know, certainly,
Speaker 3: you know, having a fiance and someone to like come
Speaker 3: like at home, that's not it doesn't know what's going on.
Speaker 3: It's it makes it a little bit different, But there's
Speaker 3: nothing better than sleeping in your own own bed. I
Speaker 3: end up being so many for staying home. Well, it's
Speaker 3: tough because I can get to Long Island in the morning.
Speaker 3: When I leave it like you know, five am, I
Speaker 3: get out there in fifty minutes, but it might take
Speaker 3: two hours plus and traffic to get back all the
Speaker 3: way across to We've just on the other side of
Speaker 3: the city in Jersey, and it's like, you know, that
Speaker 3: makes you think, like occasionally it might be good to
Speaker 3: stay out here and you kind of half and half,
Speaker 3: I guess is kind of what I did at the
Speaker 3: with the Creek, which is again it's like fifty minutes
Speaker 3: in the morning, but it can be if you want
Speaker 3: to leave before seven pm, it's going to take you
Speaker 3: two plus hours. So it's you know, even it's not
Speaker 3: even a home game sometimes when it feels like it
Speaker 3: should be.
Speaker 2: What what project?
Speaker 1: I imagine that you were just you just alluded to
Speaker 1: it with talking golf with the other guys you're working with,
Speaker 1: Like what project sticks out? Like where when did you
Speaker 1: have the most fun time after work or during and
Speaker 1: after work where you go you're done and you just talk,
Speaker 1: talk shop and talk market.
Speaker 3: The ones that stick out the most or gismoal River
Speaker 3: and that was like your second one, that was the
Speaker 3: first one, first construction with you were an in Renaissance. Yeah,
Speaker 3: there was a group of like ten of us right
Speaker 3: out there. That and that we're pretty much trapped, right,
Speaker 3: So you're when you're in a brack, there's no place there.
Speaker 3: We're all eating three meals together every day, we're all
Speaker 3: sleeping in rooms like right next to each other. You're
Speaker 3: working together all day long. That's that's kind of that's
Speaker 3: just what it is. Obviously there's more talk than just golf,
Speaker 3: but knowing me, it probably was only golf, especially if you.
Speaker 2: Had ten are still in architecture.
Speaker 3: I think we did this on the other one, so obviously, right,
Speaker 3: So obviously Tom Blake and Brian and Schneider, right, those
Speaker 3: are obvious. Jonathan Reester, who was out there a bit
Speaker 3: with us, is still he still does uh some work,
Speaker 3: I believe, although I think he just went back to school.
Speaker 3: So who else? Yeah, Blake Clyde for sure, Zach Party
Speaker 3: for sure, Jeff Stein for sure, Brett Hakstein, Uh, Ryan
Speaker 3: Johns was working at bel Air right he who else?
Speaker 3: I haven't kept too much in touch with like Connor Cummings,
Speaker 3: but I've heard at points. I think he's worked with
Speaker 3: Trip at least he's from Oklahoma. I don't know if
Speaker 3: there's anybody else currently, like they were still in for
Speaker 3: a while at least if they weren't James Byrd, I
Speaker 3: guess and uh Matt Hunter some of the other names
Speaker 3: that popped into my mind. If I might be forgetting
Speaker 3: someone obvious, but I just it's a while a go,
Speaker 3: but it's I mean, it was that was a that
Speaker 3: was a awesome time and learning experience. It was a
Speaker 3: crash course in minimalism, but the same time too. Vineyard
Speaker 3: Golf Club, my first project with gil Well was was great.
Speaker 3: I spent a lot of time there with Kyle friends.
Speaker 3: That's where you know, three months with him talking architecture
Speaker 3: all the time. I and that's all we're ever going
Speaker 3: to talk about together.
Speaker 2: You know, when Kyle calls you, it's gonna be like
Speaker 2: an hour.
Speaker 3: And a half and he's driving and you're just worried
Speaker 3: he's gonna total his car on another animal at the
Speaker 3: same time, and I know he's driving with two feet
Speaker 3: as well, which is just so dangerous, but he thinks
Speaker 3: he's the world's greatest driver.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 3: He's gonna kill me for saying all this, but it'll
Speaker 3: be funny, we said, I didn't get him as bad
Speaker 3: as Wagner got him on some of the other ones.
Speaker 3: Even in France. With Neil, I was telling you earlier
Speaker 3: when we're walking around he's he's awesome. He's one of
Speaker 3: the most talented people in the business and loves it
Speaker 3: and we are a really great team on site. We
Speaker 3: have a lot of similar just views on life, and
Speaker 3: it was we had an awesome time building golf and
Speaker 3: taken in the French lifestyle this year. That was a place.
Speaker 2: It was hot though.
Speaker 3: Yes they the French do not do air conditioning very well.
Speaker 3: But if you can get a the fans situation sorted,
Speaker 3: get a sleep on the bottom floor of the house,
Speaker 3: and a lot of rose, I think is the key. Really,
Speaker 3: it's it's a.
Speaker 1: Far worse when you're talking shop with other guys. You know,
Speaker 1: they're you're kind of like teammates when you're doing these projects.
Speaker 1: But then in the future you guys are hopefully you know,
Speaker 1: going to go on and build your own courses and
Speaker 1: not all be working together all the time. Like are
Speaker 1: you do you have ideas that you like, can't tell
Speaker 1: you you can't like in your head?
Speaker 3: I yeah, I think for sure. I absolutely, I'm there's
Speaker 3: everybody's got their own little secret move or something, you know,
Speaker 3: you like, yeah, of course, I I maybe it just
Speaker 3: depends on how much rose is flowing at the time
Speaker 3: as to what comes out at when. But you know,
Speaker 3: they're all just ideas, right, and most of the ideas
Speaker 3: and this stuff have probably been they're probably coming from
Speaker 3: somewhere being recycled or inspired by something else anyway, So
Speaker 3: you know, we'll see. I think there's obviously like a
Speaker 3: big thing about you know, what's next. Right, We've been
Speaker 3: on this minimum, you know, so I.
Speaker 2: Think there's a there's a.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, so you know, I I certainly have ideas
Speaker 3: about what that could be. I think there's a lot
Speaker 3: of stuff with the way some of the like crazy
Speaker 3: technology stuff and the uh tools we have to do
Speaker 3: these these these you know, super high end jobs. Now.
Speaker 3: I think there's so, you know, with the bunker liners,
Speaker 3: all these sorts of different drainage stuff to sort of
Speaker 3: take what we have equipment wise and sort of rejigger
Speaker 3: some of the form and function stuff and try to
Speaker 3: make the I mean, you're gonna make We'll give the
Speaker 3: bunkers today, Like it's like perfection, right, But at the
Speaker 3: same time, it's really easy to almost if you're a
Speaker 3: good player, to hit some of that super high spinny
Speaker 3: shots out of those you know, the billy bunker stuff. Right.
Speaker 3: It almost makes it more moist and the sand is firmer,
Speaker 3: So a really good player can get down and like
Speaker 3: create a lot of spin. It almost makes it easier
Speaker 3: for them. So how to take sort of react to that, right,
Speaker 3: because I think is sort of where mine go my
Speaker 3: mind goes. But then I also think too about like
Speaker 3: you know, going more and the more urban stuff. Right,
Speaker 3: certainly I live around here in the big cities transforming
Speaker 3: sort of more urban golf courses that or you know,
Speaker 3: right on the outskirts that doing more sort of small
Speaker 3: format things, and how we can just sort of, you know,
Speaker 3: go about the small format stuff a little different. The
Speaker 3: reversible stuff is really cool. The project we're doing it
Speaker 3: at Edgar Town with the it's a nine hole course,
Speaker 3: but we're building a second green very much in that
Speaker 3: sort of Japanese style, so it can they have the
Speaker 3: room for it, so they get two holes with only
Speaker 3: one fairway, right, it's two greens and two approaches, but
Speaker 3: everything else is shared, so you know, that's sort of
Speaker 3: two courses in one thing. You might get in one
Speaker 3: way at the loop you get a little bit different there.
Speaker 2: You know. So I think nine holes is the right
Speaker 2: amount of golf for.
Speaker 3: A lot of people. For me, thirty six is barely
Speaker 3: enough in a day.
Speaker 1: So but I'm saying like in terms of like a
Speaker 1: working professional, because nine you can like squeeze in right,
Speaker 1: or four you can squeeze in yep. I think that's
Speaker 1: the best benefit of being a member at a country
Speaker 1: club is the ability to go play four holes versus.
Speaker 3: I proposed something recently where there was what was it,
Speaker 3: you and Chackleford, we're talking about it, and I was like, man,
Speaker 3: you guys told my idea because I had this this
Speaker 3: routing for redoing. You know, it was a proposed rerouting
Speaker 3: for something. I was like, well, this place wants to
Speaker 3: be like super family friendly. They have a residential component
Speaker 3: to it. I was like, well, if you could kind
Speaker 3: of reverse some of this, all of a sudden, you
Speaker 3: could have a loop of four holes, a loop of
Speaker 3: five holes, and a loop of nine all at the
Speaker 3: same time. So it's giving the country club that, like
Speaker 3: the starter's a lot more places to send people out.
Speaker 3: You know, if it's the wife and the kids and
Speaker 3: you bought one of their like two hundred and fifty
Speaker 3: homes right next door, you could go out real easy
Speaker 3: in the evenings. When you get home. If the wife
Speaker 3: is you know, just learning and even nines maybe a
Speaker 3: little bit too much at times, it's perfect if you've
Speaker 3: got the kids that are just learning. You know, that's
Speaker 3: and you come right back and so it's easy function.
Speaker 3: You know, it's tough on the routing to always make
Speaker 3: it work and come back to the clubhouse and stuff
Speaker 3: like that. But I think that's like if you want
Speaker 3: to talk about like family, family stuff and things like that,
Speaker 3: you could potentially do things like that and make it more.
Speaker 3: You know, you could sell four hole loops, five hole
Speaker 3: loops and make more more money out of that.
Speaker 2: Right, I was thinking about this.
Speaker 3: So the way that happened was it was a twenty
Speaker 3: seven hole golf course being downsized to eighteen. So I
Speaker 3: was like, well, how do you tell these guys that
Speaker 3: you're not going to lose revenue. So that's how it
Speaker 3: occurred to me like that, and I was screaming at
Speaker 3: the pub when you guys were talking like you stole
Speaker 3: my damn idea. Sorry, yeah, sorry, first time, long time.
Speaker 2: I think about a lot of stuff.
Speaker 3: See the same.
Speaker 1: So I want a public course to do this where
Speaker 1: you have to have the routing right, but you could
Speaker 1: have like a three hole league, a six hole league,
Speaker 1: and a nine hole league and the nine hole the
Speaker 1: nine hole league starts at five, the six hole league
Speaker 1: starts at like you know, five forty, and the three
Speaker 1: hole league starts at six fifteen. And it all depends
Speaker 1: on when you get off work, like when you can
Speaker 1: get off work and you go and you play and
Speaker 1: everybody then finishes at the same time, and you it
Speaker 1: has to you have to have the routing right spots,
Speaker 1: but you could adapt this. But then everybody together and
Speaker 1: you have like drinks afterwards, and it's well, I couldn't
Speaker 1: get out of work, so I couldn't get out of
Speaker 1: work in time for the nine hole er, so I.
Speaker 3: Did the three hole but then you got to build
Speaker 3: the putting course. But you know right outside too, when
Speaker 3: you get the fire pit and you just keep it
Speaker 3: going with the drinks, it's perfect. Man.
Speaker 2: There's there's a place that's getting that I went in.
Speaker 1: I started thinking about this from it, and they have
Speaker 1: a putting course.
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, there you go.
Speaker 1: It's funny you said that, because that's exactly what they're doing.
Speaker 1: It's lock a bell up in Wisconsin.
Speaker 3: Awesome.
Speaker 2: It's a but.
Speaker 1: But yeah, they have a they have a three hole loop,
Speaker 1: a six hole loop potential, and a nine hole loop.
Speaker 3: It's there, you go.
Speaker 2: It's neat.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's but that's a but. Uh yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: I was rabbit rabbit Hole City exactly exactly. I mean,
Speaker 1: when you were a kid, you just start sketching golf holes,
Speaker 1: I imagine at some.
Speaker 3: Point, uh, at some point. Yes, I have a sketch
Speaker 3: book at home Whistle with like in them holes. Sometimes
Speaker 3: it's like, you know, I would just go on the
Speaker 3: early stages of Google Earth or whatever and just trace
Speaker 3: something into it and then draw over top of that,
Speaker 3: or old yardage books. I have a massive yardage book collection,
Speaker 3: So some of that sort of stuff. Trying to you know,
Speaker 3: create sort of your own sort of templates or whatever
Speaker 3: as a kid was kind of fun, I guess. I
Speaker 3: mean that was more probably high school. I probably started
Speaker 3: doing that a little bit. But when I was really
Speaker 3: I was drawing, honestly, I was drawing like I was
Speaker 3: the first thing I ever wanted to do when life
Speaker 3: was being NHL goalie. So I have sketch books more
Speaker 3: with like custom goalie pads setups than I do with
Speaker 3: golf courses. But it quickly changed. As you can tell,
Speaker 3: it's one track mind.
Speaker 1: Here now for a quick word from our sponsor. Today's
Speaker 1: episode is brought to you by be Dratty. Be Dratty
Speaker 1: make some of the best golf clothes on the market.
Speaker 1: They make the best cotton is Pima Peruvian cotton, and
Speaker 1: there's no better place to have this soft, luxurious cotton
Speaker 1: then in your underwear. They make boxers, so I would
Speaker 1: definitely check out the Richard Boxer. I mean, there's nothing
Speaker 1: better than a great shirt from B Dratty. It's so comfortable.
Speaker 1: I get people talking about it all the time. They're like,
Speaker 1: oh God, these shirts are so comfortable. Well imagine that
Speaker 1: in your underwear. I mean, life's too short to wear
Speaker 1: uncomfortable underwear. So Richard boxers you can get those on
Speaker 1: bdradty dot com. They come in all different types of colors.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: My biggest problem is is Missus Friday will steal them
Speaker 1: to sleep in them. I mean, maybe this is TMI,
Speaker 1: but highly recommend the Richard Boxer available on bdradty dot com.
Speaker 2: And now we will go back to yaeger Kovich.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you travel, you play a ton of golf and
Speaker 1: see a lot of golf courses. Not you might not
Speaker 1: play as much as sea courses.
Speaker 3: I play a lot. Yeah you're not all the time,
Speaker 3: but yeah, I'm addicted.
Speaker 2: How do you go about figuring out where you're going
Speaker 2: to see stuff? Like? What could? What could? The listener that's.
Speaker 1: Well, well, just say just say you're going somewhere you
Speaker 1: haven't been, Like, what's the first first thing you're doing?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: But see, I'm always starting off by going someplace for work, right,
Speaker 3: I'm always So if you're working in Pinehurst, you're obviously
Speaker 3: you know I wanted to go. You know, I had
Speaker 3: to go to Roaring Gap finally, you know old Town, Uh, Salisbury,
Speaker 3: you know that sort of.
Speaker 2: There's so many courses in North Carolina.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, but if you know in Nebraska, you know
Speaker 3: you're you can you can drive to Prairie Dunes, you
Speaker 3: can drive north to Sutton Bay. I guess you can
Speaker 3: go see all of the cool mom and pop stuff
Speaker 3: in Nebraska. The little nine hole sandhole courses are awesome.
Speaker 3: I don't know, but it's it's just like you're I
Speaker 3: was starting from somewhere, and so I know a lot
Speaker 3: of it's you know, we're around here. So one thing
Speaker 3: I've been trying to do at home is slowly, you know,
Speaker 3: I've I've have lists of courses I want to see
Speaker 3: that compile or whatever. So sometimes it's listed by state
Speaker 3: by state. Sometimes it's like list of courses by that
Speaker 3: architect that I want to see. So I want to
Speaker 3: see I'm trying to see as many or all of
Speaker 3: the tilling half stuff really. But same thing with Walter Travis,
Speaker 3: because he certainly did a lot of work near in
Speaker 3: my part of the country, and I'm just he's incredible
Speaker 3: and maybe the most underrated of the American based guys.
Speaker 3: I want call him Americans not but.
Speaker 2: He did all his work in America.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so and then Emmett as well. I'm trying
Speaker 3: to see kind of all of his stuff as well. Matt,
Speaker 3: I don't know, you have to ask. There's just a
Speaker 3: new book that came out, The Naturalist, right, I'm not sure,
Speaker 3: I think so, Yeah, I want to learn more about him.
Speaker 3: It's uh you just gotta go see him, see what's left,
Speaker 3: try to piece.
Speaker 2: What do you have? What?
Speaker 1: What are like the top of your list of places
Speaker 1: you want to see that you haven't gotten to yet.
Speaker 3: I was we were talking earlier myopia hunt is on there,
Speaker 3: uh and Essex, I guess, right across the street from
Speaker 3: each other. Boston two step, Yeah, Cape Rundle, the Travis
Speaker 3: Course up in Maine.
Speaker 2: I said I was going there with this year and
Speaker 2: it didn't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I said that last year. Theres I'm lucky right,
Speaker 3: there's I've seen a lot and a lot of what
Speaker 3: I've tried to. Huntercombe in the UK is the Willie
Speaker 3: Park Junior, the place that he I guess owned or
Speaker 3: was developed. That place just woke was absolutely fascinating. We
Speaker 3: Hinch has been at the very top of my list
Speaker 3: for the longest time. I was probably we.
Speaker 2: Had a discussion earlier.
Speaker 3: I want to go back to Japan and everything in
Speaker 3: Australians em I don't know. So there you go. Now
Speaker 3: we're in rabbit Hole City again.
Speaker 2: And we had a discussion earlier about about.
Speaker 1: Architects of the Golden Age that did it as a
Speaker 1: hobby and what they did, and then you know, It
Speaker 1: spawned from talking about Aiken and what a friend of
Speaker 1: ours said about how you know he got to build
Speaker 1: it for himself. Yeah, and you know Willie Park with
Speaker 1: hunter Combe right developed, he built it for himself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like we just you.
Speaker 3: Know, I was just writing about the Addington another day
Speaker 3: for the equactic thing, right, and Abercrombie was the same
Speaker 3: thing there. It's like Pine Valley or yeah, how listen,
Speaker 3: I've thought about it. I've you know, I don't know
Speaker 3: how I can afford that perfect you know, Sandy Coast
Speaker 3: or even you know whatever. Honestly, it would be cool.
Speaker 3: I've dreamt about just like somehow being able to take
Speaker 3: over like a few of these courses here in the
Speaker 3: like just as really close into the city and being
Speaker 3: able to take those over do something really cool and
Speaker 3: just sort of like a awesome nine hole course, a
Speaker 3: nine hole part three course and just to killer driving
Speaker 3: range and just being able to like show people kind
Speaker 3: of what you could do, like, you.
Speaker 2: Know, well in Pine Valley, the greatest course in the country.
Speaker 1: Everybody says that was built by a guy, you know,
Speaker 1: like the guy it was all a vision, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously he got a lot of help, but he built
Speaker 1: it for like you.
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, but I don't know. But when I'm when
Speaker 3: you're out there on the machine, I'm not thinking em
Speaker 3: out what that. I'm just trying to make everything, you know,
Speaker 3: make love of the dirt, right, just give it. I'm
Speaker 3: just gonna I'm just like that anyways. I'm going to
Speaker 3: pretend like it's mind no matter what, and take to
Speaker 3: do the super high quality, best best work. You got
Speaker 3: to believe that, like or just you're doing it because
Speaker 3: you love to do it, and you know, you take
Speaker 3: so much ownership of it. I think I don't think
Speaker 3: it would really be any different. If people are gonna
Speaker 3: trust me to do that, I'm gonna do it the same. Sure.
Speaker 3: I mean there's no like, what would I do on
Speaker 3: my own? Maybe not as much. It would be maybe
Speaker 3: a little bit more out there, I suppose, you know.
Speaker 3: But I guess it depends on your client too. At
Speaker 3: that rate, you know, what are they what are they
Speaker 3: looking for? Everybody has so something. But yeah, but honestly,
Speaker 3: I just get dropped off on a bulldozer next week
Speaker 3: and it's like okay, you know, very little verbal instructions
Speaker 3: sometimes and it's like here you go, Okay, make something cool.
Speaker 3: So once you're there in the machine, it feels almost
Speaker 3: the same at that rate. Right, what does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Yeah? It does. It does like once you get into it.
Speaker 3: Right, once, once you're there, you've got to make it yours,
Speaker 3: you know that.
Speaker 2: Because it is like you do have an ownership because
Speaker 2: it's your.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then it's turned over to the you know,
Speaker 3: contractor to the club to seed or you know whatever,
Speaker 3: and then it's then it's somebody else's. But until then,
Speaker 3: that's that's ours to make make it is the most
Speaker 3: fun golf you could possibly create out of it, Right.
Speaker 1: What's your pet peeve architecture? It could be any any type.
Speaker 1: I'm just curious.
Speaker 2: What what what? What? When you see just drives.
Speaker 3: One of my favorites. I just love the way golf
Speaker 3: holes look in the dirt, just like tracked in with
Speaker 3: the track marks and the blade marks from how you know,
Speaker 3: the machine, or the bucket.
Speaker 2: Marks from smashing down.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm a I'm not a There's like different
Speaker 3: ways to run the machine.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of guys. I'm a tapper, like you
Speaker 3: can normally hear it's really loud. The guys that rent
Speaker 3: you the machine don't like you because you're beating the
Speaker 3: hell out of the thing. So sorry, Matt and Rich
Speaker 3: and everybody.
Speaker 2: They're making their money on those round.
Speaker 3: It's all right, Uh, they'll if you, if you go
Speaker 3: fast enough, they'll forgive you. But when it's got all
Speaker 3: those fresh bucket marks and all those tracks on it,
Speaker 3: and then someone comes ripping up on a cart or
Speaker 3: something and just lays just tire tracks right down the
Speaker 3: line of sight, it's like, uh, don't touch it. It's
Speaker 3: just so perfect right now. But it's obviously an inevitable
Speaker 3: part of the process. It's that is my least favorite.
Speaker 3: I'm sure. Yes, I've gotten probably way too upset a
Speaker 3: few people for just run in something, but it just
Speaker 3: is what it's not, you know, all right, we'll fix it,
Speaker 3: no big deal. Well it's got to be perfect at
Speaker 3: the end, and it's that's all that matters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's true. It's uh.
Speaker 3: I always like say, like a sprig. Course, oh no,
Speaker 3: sprigs are the worst. Sprigs is the worst process to
Speaker 3: watch because you're out there and I get you know,
Speaker 3: I probably said it to make love the dirt, right,
Speaker 3: It's just it's got you put this perfect finish on it.
Speaker 3: You make every so it's like, you know, we're literally
Speaker 3: talking fractions of an inch, you know, with almost all
Speaker 3: of the features right there. It's and then you know,
Speaker 3: certain like the service of a green, right you know,
Speaker 3: we'll hand rake the green. And then you know what,
Speaker 3: how you sprag You get a bunch of guys to
Speaker 3: just come trample everything, you know, walk all over it
Speaker 3: by hand. After you've just raked every footprint off of
Speaker 3: the thing, they're gonna then walk all across it, put
Speaker 3: out all their fur, then take all these sprigs, throw
Speaker 3: them all over the place and just have a dance
Speaker 3: party across it. Then they can come by and slice
Speaker 3: it in and then they're gonna crimp it in and
Speaker 3: roll it in and somehow it always goes back perfectly.
Speaker 3: Or but it is the don't ever watch anything I
Speaker 3: don't like.
Speaker 2: Like when it's just after.
Speaker 3: The I love the color of hydromulch. That's a beautiful sight.
Speaker 3: Maybe that's what I don't Sprigging is the worst. The
Speaker 3: finish like pre seed because northern, like bankrast rescue, the
Speaker 3: finished work you have to do has to be ultra
Speaker 3: precise because that that won't tolerate it right, it'll stay
Speaker 3: in that forever. But the process with the springing, with
Speaker 3: all that herd of elephants and the whole circus that
Speaker 3: goes on after, you know. So if it's a smith,
Speaker 3: you know you want to get it to absolutely perfect.
Speaker 3: But there's different tolerances because of what you do after
Speaker 3: in the next step of the process. So and then
Speaker 3: I try to finish everything like it's bent anyways, Right,
Speaker 3: you got to make you's got to make a perfect
Speaker 3: You get one chance. You get one chance, then the
Speaker 3: grass goes on and it's done. Then it costs a
Speaker 3: whole lot more to take it apart. So one chance,
Speaker 3: you got to make it perfect. That's true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is the The finality of design is like
Speaker 1: kind of a scary thing.
Speaker 3: You don't want to dig stuff back up.
Speaker 1: What's like the most nervous you've been on a project
Speaker 1: or like building something, if you ever felt like I
Speaker 1: really don't want to screw this up, like like I
Speaker 1: was typically about like one maybe the most well I
Speaker 1: know for sure I'm going to be I'm already nervous
Speaker 1: about doing that hole at Edgar Town in the spring,
Speaker 1: just because it's so unique and the land form is
Speaker 1: so amazing already, and that'll be the first, probably the first,
Speaker 1: definitely the first green I've ever fully you know, executed
Speaker 1: on my own. Entirely green expansion is one thing, but
Speaker 1: to build an entirely new green on that's that's a
Speaker 1: huge step.
Speaker 3: You're design correct, you know. So that's but in the past.
Speaker 2: Built a lot of greens from nothing, but.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't say a lot, you know, certainly that's you know,
Speaker 3: Gil Gil or Jim or say Eric Iverson when I
Speaker 3: was working for Tom or Bryant, those who were the
Speaker 3: guys building most of the greens. We've definitely built, you know,
Speaker 3: we do a lot of sort of everything else, and
Speaker 3: we certainly tweaked things here there, certainly built a good
Speaker 3: handful of them. Certainly in the last year it's been
Speaker 3: more and more. That's we're talking about earlier. That was
Speaker 3: the amazing thing about frances I've built more greens for
Speaker 3: them in France than I probably did in the four
Speaker 3: years prior working with them, So that that's what made
Speaker 3: that That's why you know, brain right, aside from the
Speaker 3: Rose right and the duck, but aronom Ink was very
Speaker 3: nerve wracking going into that was probably the most nervous
Speaker 3: i'd ever been because the amount we had to recreate
Speaker 3: for that restoration. I mean it was going from seventy
Speaker 3: something bunkers to like one hundred and eighty two. I
Speaker 3: believe that they're out there right now. So entire landforms
Speaker 3: needed to be totally recreated, and some ultra artistic just
Speaker 3: mind blowing week cool stuff, and we had tons of
Speaker 3: photographic evidence of what it exactly was like. But to
Speaker 3: that was I felt pretty nervous being in the everyday
Speaker 3: guy there and being the one that was there that
Speaker 3: was that was tough, but very proud of how it
Speaker 3: turned out.
Speaker 2: Speaking of like in your mind, what's the line?
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, certain places should always you know,
Speaker 1: like given their space in the game, Like it's a
Speaker 1: no brainer restore, restore, and a lot of stuff has
Speaker 1: gotten restore, But like when is it When is it
Speaker 1: right to not restore and to renovate maybe a hole
Speaker 1: or change a routing or of especially a classic golf
Speaker 1: course like a Golden Age design.
Speaker 3: I think, you know, I don't know, it's something you
Speaker 3: don't want to get in a necessarily pattern of doing,
Speaker 3: but I think it's a circumstantial thing. So only to
Speaker 3: just pull from like an actual experience. Right, So there's
Speaker 3: there's a couple of places like that. I think in
Speaker 3: the future we kind of hope to do it suburban.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: It's a nineteen twenty two toing Hasse course. It was
Speaker 3: built ten minutes down the street from Baltos Rawl the
Speaker 3: same year. So there's tons of incredible stuff out there.
Speaker 3: But there's also it's a very tight place. It's a
Speaker 3: small property. It's there's a lot of linear nature it
Speaker 3: required to get sort of through. But there's a you know,
Speaker 3: there's a shortish par five there that's got five hundred
Speaker 3: yards of propery line and fence up the right and
Speaker 3: over time that it's become trees on the left side,
Speaker 3: which is narrowing the thing. And there's really you know,
Speaker 3: was really never any it was just a straight five
Speaker 3: hundred yard hole until it got to the green and
Speaker 3: the green had changed. The greens was changed by a
Speaker 3: golf pro I don't know, thirty fifty years ago. It's
Speaker 3: just a pancake, right, just change. But that's a place
Speaker 3: where you know, they have already a pattern of these
Speaker 3: really cool sort of shared hazards, and we need to
Speaker 3: do something to try to pull the interest left instead
Speaker 3: of right where they have the boundary issue. That's a
Speaker 3: place where you could sort of get in to do
Speaker 3: They already have shared hazards on a number of holes,
Speaker 3: so if we could do something like connect some fairway
Speaker 3: a little bit with the seventeen on the left of it,
Speaker 3: do some cool shared hazards. And I've kind of thought
Speaker 3: too since the green sort of you know, that's a
Speaker 3: place where maybe you could add a little bit more
Speaker 3: of a it's a it's you could maybe start to
Speaker 3: think about doing something, you know pull tilling House did
Speaker 3: a lot of writing and sketching of template holes, especially
Speaker 3: the park fives, you know, double dog leg the right.
Speaker 3: So that's something there where we've sort of just batted
Speaker 3: around that idea. We haven't done anything with it, but
Speaker 3: that's something kind of kicking in the back of our
Speaker 3: heads for down the road. So that's a place I
Speaker 3: kind of look to is you know, there's it's just
Speaker 3: five hundred yards of straight this is a place kind
Speaker 3: of yeah, but not Tilly's so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's uh yeah, that's that's a tricky thing.
Speaker 3: There's also places too where if there's like a functionality
Speaker 3: thing right, So if it's there's correct, circumstances have changed
Speaker 3: and it's flooding and you have to move something right,
Speaker 3: you know, then what do you do? Shade safety things
Speaker 3: like that. Those are always obvious ones. But you know,
Speaker 3: sometimes I don't want to change the crazy stuff. I like,
Speaker 3: you know, the wildest stuff. I'm always going to probably
Speaker 3: lean to low keep that that's the cool stuff. But
Speaker 3: like the stuff that you know, I don't know. I
Speaker 3: think there's sometimes a lot of room for improvement. Things
Speaker 3: are always evolving, so you just got to work at it. Oh,
Speaker 3: I guess a circumstance. But at the same I'm pretty
Speaker 3: strict on myself with the restoration and stuff. I really
Speaker 3: I don't know. I'm I'm pretty I think you kind
Speaker 3: of have to be. There's a lot of gray area
Speaker 3: and what restoration is. So I just try to be
Speaker 3: pretty clear and try to if we're going to be
Speaker 3: really authentic, I want to do that. If there's no
Speaker 3: reason to do that, then what we do. Is it
Speaker 3: just something that's influenced or is it a total I
Speaker 3: don't know. There's a lot of ways that it's to
Speaker 3: sort of spin it.
Speaker 4: At the same time, Yeah, it's kind of got like
Speaker 4: a dividing line and then like.
Speaker 2: As you get some edge of the spectrum and you know,
Speaker 2: it's very delicate situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know, there's always been a pattern and
Speaker 3: I think you know, when there's real history and there's
Speaker 3: really something to tie into, I think there's something really
Speaker 3: cool about having that same sort of experience and the
Speaker 3: people have been playing golf here for one hundred years
Speaker 3: and that's sort of same thing. I think there's a
Speaker 3: lot to that. I think we have that throughout our culture, right,
Speaker 3: that sort of you know, antiques sort of thing for
Speaker 3: a reason. Right, people love that sort of stuff, the
Speaker 3: sort of vintage clothing that you know, all our kitchen
Speaker 3: appliances look like they're you know, they have a very
Speaker 3: sort of historic sort of thing to them. I think
Speaker 3: it's you know, the way he kind of you know,
Speaker 3: what did mom do right at home? So there's there's
Speaker 3: always a draw I think to that culturally, and it.
Speaker 2: I don't know, Hey, I haven't done overrated underrated in
Speaker 2: like a year.
Speaker 3: Wow, do some overrighted underrated baby, We'll see, I guess
Speaker 3: go for it.
Speaker 2: Rainer currently.
Speaker 3: Currently dreading overrated probably and that he didn't make the
Speaker 3: rushmore he didn't make Mount Rushmore for me, so I didn't. Yeah,
Speaker 3: how about that.
Speaker 2: It's kind of unbelievable.
Speaker 1: I just I always am that amaze, the fact that
Speaker 1: he didn't even know what golf was.
Speaker 3: About that, right McDonald, I think would be closer to
Speaker 3: the Rushmore than Rainer in my mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The impact, right, impact is insane, Rayner. The thing
Speaker 2: that I'm amazed.
Speaker 3: About is that Andy's favorite rabbit hole.
Speaker 1: I've said this a lot, but I think his best
Speaker 1: holes are the non template holes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally. M that's fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but you know, so it's hard to pick
Speaker 2: for listen, I love it.
Speaker 3: I just I was super pumped about Francis Byrne the
Speaker 3: other day, right, I mean I love it, right, of course. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but the whole you know, I love the temple like
Speaker 3: I love the you know, the world needs more leaving
Speaker 3: holes as far as I'm concerned, or no, like really
Speaker 3: good no holds. But at the same time too, that's
Speaker 3: the only thing the world seems to be talking about
Speaker 3: right now, and I'm just a little uh. I want
Speaker 3: to be different, man, I like, you can do something different.
Speaker 2: I you know, I don't. I don't post pictures for
Speaker 2: likes like and stuff.
Speaker 1: But I know when I posts like some fresh new
Speaker 1: Rainer photos that the internet is going to like.
Speaker 2: Love them.
Speaker 1: It's so weird. It's I don't know what it is about.
Speaker 1: I think it's because people have seen it.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's recognizable and so you you and they're easy
Speaker 3: to understand because you can you can, okay, well, this
Speaker 3: whole the strategy of it is like this, and it's
Speaker 3: sort of told to you and it's explained to you,
Speaker 3: so you can relate it back to that and you
Speaker 3: can break it down and it's like, you know, that's
Speaker 3: the if you were going to teach an architecture one
Speaker 3: oh one thing, almost like tons of that stuff would
Speaker 3: be in there, right, that's you know, the most copied
Speaker 3: hole in golf is the 'redan right, how would that
Speaker 3: not be? You know, you'd have that discussion of what
Speaker 3: is that? And how does it look here?
Speaker 1: How is it?
Speaker 3: There's this one? You know, so it's it's just relatable.
Speaker 3: People can can get it, and that's great.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I started like that too, like of course, but then
Speaker 3: the more and more sometimes it's like all right, you know,
Speaker 3: I absolutely I'm I'd love to go to Camargo that's
Speaker 3: really high on my but like the same time too,
Speaker 3: you know, difference difference good too. Yeah, yeah, I know,
Speaker 3: I I I like to zig and you know.
Speaker 1: I like the most influential golf course in my life
Speaker 1: is a Rainer, you know, And I think that's why,
Speaker 1: Like you know, that's like the place where like a
Speaker 1: light bulb went off for me. So I think that's
Speaker 1: obviously always something that I you know, and it's but
Speaker 1: like as I've seen more and more, everybody gets.
Speaker 2: That, right.
Speaker 3: I just said, I just said overrated, and I cannot
Speaker 3: tell you how excited I am to go put Yo
Speaker 3: tomorrow just through the like so I say that, but
Speaker 3: it's essentially, you know, it's just a temperature of the
Speaker 3: room answer. I suppose you know culture, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'd probably hate him even more if I was on Twitter,
Speaker 3: but I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 5: So the group I'm not I'm not making as I
Speaker 5: got too many opinions to be on Twitter, so we're
Speaker 5: not going to do that.
Speaker 2: It's I used to reply, and I used to be,
Speaker 2: you know, but I'm done.
Speaker 4: No, I'm a I'm more of a I don't like
Speaker 4: getting in the mentions anymore. It's uh, you know, the
Speaker 4: the social media has been overall really good for architecture. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but I think it also creates this like group think
Speaker 4: and in a way can stunt the progression because you know,
Speaker 4: becomes this gospel this is good and like I feel
Speaker 4: like sometimes I'm I do you know it's like this
Speaker 4: is good, this is bad.
Speaker 2: It's like it's if it's you know, what you guys
Speaker 2: do is art.
Speaker 1: You know, there should be a wide range of opinions, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is a big, big topic.
Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, this is this is only going to
Speaker 3: get me in terrible trouble too. Oh man, how do
Speaker 3: I how do I find my way through here?
Speaker 2: A topic for another day.
Speaker 3: It's hard to give like honest critique, especially someone in
Speaker 3: my place, right because you know I do this so
Speaker 3: I have a very critical eye, and so I always
Speaker 3: just get frustrated because as an art you know, I
Speaker 3: went to you know, I was a school, I was
Speaker 3: an architecture major. I was a studio art minor. You know,
Speaker 3: critique was everything, right, So I insist on critique on site.
Speaker 3: I want to know, you know, we were talking about earlier,
Speaker 3: like having Kyle on site. He's gonna you know, ask him.
Speaker 3: You know, I like what this is doing. I like
Speaker 3: what that's doing. Did you ever think about this? What
Speaker 3: about that? That's how we learn. And you know, you
Speaker 3: know when your professor in college stands up and she
Speaker 3: freaking rips your model in half and like you thought
Speaker 3: you were gonna walk in and get an a and
Speaker 3: then you just have to stand up there and present
Speaker 3: something and all of a sudden you're getting slaughtered and
Speaker 3: it's like, here's your c mine is this is trash?
Speaker 3: Like what were you thinking? Like So that's the only
Speaker 3: way I think we can learn. But you need that
Speaker 3: to push everything forward because if everything is simply the
Speaker 3: just like everything the newest is always the best, it's
Speaker 3: not the best, it's just so that's we need that.
Speaker 3: I don't know how you get that. I know it's
Speaker 3: very difficult to critique the other guy in the same
Speaker 3: business as like I get it. It's it's a weird ground.
Speaker 3: It's hard to do right and not offend everybody. And thus,
Speaker 3: you know Twitter, you were critical. I'm yes, very early on,
Speaker 3: like early on, but it made me better.
Speaker 1: And like Tommy Knakarata, it was really critical of me
Speaker 1: on some.
Speaker 3: And I just saw him defend you very very well
Speaker 3: the other day. But and he's and that so many
Speaker 3: people he hit on exactly the same thing that you know,
Speaker 3: you've you took it. But then you like you got
Speaker 3: on a plane, you game here and you're standing in
Speaker 3: the dark waiting for the sun come up to take
Speaker 3: photos of put you know, places that no one's ever
Speaker 3: heard of. You drove two hours out of your way
Speaker 3: to go to Galen Hall because to go like a
Speaker 3: moat hole, Like there's not many people that would do so.
Speaker 2: But but this is the thing Tommy like he like
Speaker 2: shredded me.
Speaker 3: Sure he sent a gazillion messages to Gill and Jim,
Speaker 3: well what does this get?
Speaker 1: But but but you called him. I talked to him
Speaker 1: and I in it. And what he said, he's like,
Speaker 1: you know, like you just need to do your homework
Speaker 1: like you do your.
Speaker 2: And it was he was totally right, and it's like
Speaker 2: it changed.
Speaker 1: But like, and this is the thing that kind of
Speaker 1: can drive me nuts a little bit about the Internet
Speaker 1: because like if you say something critical about something somewhere,
Speaker 1: people like think you hate it, and it's like, well no,
Speaker 1: I'm just pointing out like one thing. Yeah, and if
Speaker 1: somebody doesn't point it out. How do you ever know that?
Speaker 2: That might I and I'm not necessary.
Speaker 3: And then if the thing too is you know, if
Speaker 3: someone if like if I want to talk about the
Speaker 3: functionality stuff or how something was constructed, no one in
Speaker 3: the world is going to understand that, And then they're
Speaker 3: just being like, oh, you're you're saying all this, but
Speaker 3: horizon line, it's bad too, because I can be really
Speaker 3: negative or be really critical of a really small thing,
Speaker 3: but overall the thing was actually excellent. And I find
Speaker 3: that's often I really really like something and you know,
Speaker 3: you know, say it's like a doakes. You know, I
Speaker 3: might give something a doke seven, but I might rant
Speaker 3: and rave about a couple of things that are just
Speaker 3: driving me nuts out there and like everybody, but I
Speaker 3: was like, you know, I might be fascinated about it
Speaker 3: and just go on and on and on. Know it's like,
Speaker 3: what are you talking? It's still an awesome golf court. Like,
Speaker 3: don't get me wrong, but there's something about the way
Speaker 3: that this thing is that just gets at me. And
Speaker 3: I don't have a place to explain that because that's
Speaker 3: how people learn, and you know, we you know, I
Speaker 3: just want to teach people more, and it's hard to
Speaker 3: be you have to be sometimes critical. You don't necessarily
Speaker 3: be overly negative, but frank and it's it's tough to
Speaker 3: find that. And then you know, it's tough some always
Speaker 3: to find you know, well, what good is it going
Speaker 3: to do if you just I don't know? So it's tough.
Speaker 3: I loved well, I'm the golf Cabatles is riddled of
Speaker 3: things like that I've said over the years. And but
Speaker 3: that's more of that discussion thing. For whatever reason that
Speaker 3: you know, where I spend most of time on social media,
Speaker 3: it's like Instagram, right, and there's not nearly that conversation.
Speaker 2: Here on Instagram, saw like it's the photos roses.
Speaker 1: And it drives me insane. Sometimes it's just because like
Speaker 1: to me, like, but everywhere can't be the greatest in
Speaker 1: the world, because if everywhere is the greatest, then.
Speaker 3: What is the greatest? Correct? Yes?
Speaker 1: Then like how do you ever know if it is
Speaker 1: the greatest? If you if you say everything's the.
Speaker 3: Greatest, yep, I'm I I struggle with this all the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but then you start talking about like you're talking
Speaker 1: to someone that's worked on a lot of these super
Speaker 1: you know, like.
Speaker 3: Incredible places that they are. You know a lot of
Speaker 3: them are these courses you're talking about. I don't know
Speaker 3: how to like, you know, I will. You know, it's
Speaker 3: great to have the positive, it's amazing, but how does
Speaker 3: it really you know, sometimes it's too soon. You just
Speaker 3: got to see how things level off well.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing is, like so many courses, you
Speaker 1: got to see how they mature.
Speaker 2: Too, right, and you can't judge. It's so hard.
Speaker 3: To judge of courses or living, breathing, evolving things.
Speaker 2: And like one loop around.
Speaker 1: I found this with especially National Golf Links, Like I
Speaker 1: the first time I played it?
Speaker 3: Did had you ever walked it before?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 3: So see when I went, So I walked the golf
Speaker 3: course probably three times before I ever played it. So
Speaker 3: I'd call Bill, I'd send Bill an email, and I'd
Speaker 3: go out there in February. I'd I'd be out there
Speaker 3: at like seven am because I got to beat the
Speaker 3: traffic all the way out to the Hamptons right and
Speaker 3: then i'd come back. I'd walk the whole thing, probably
Speaker 3: take me six hours. I'd have six hundred photographs for
Speaker 3: the day. You know, the bunkers have palettes in them,
Speaker 3: or white things like that. For the way there's no flags,
Speaker 3: it didn't matter, and you know, so like I was
Speaker 3: able to take every and I probably did that two
Speaker 3: or three times over the course of and then finally
Speaker 3: one time, you know, somehow, I you know, it was
Speaker 3: nice enough to have me out there. It was man.
Speaker 3: I played with Ben Hiward. It was the windiest it
Speaker 3: was literally there was a tropical storm off the coast
Speaker 3: of Long Island. We were the only people to play
Speaker 3: the golf course that day. But you know, you wouldn't
Speaker 3: have had that, you know experience. I was pretty funny.
Speaker 3: They were like literally two tailor made reps in the
Speaker 3: shop with us. It was the four of us in
Speaker 3: the morning, and they were trying to wait it out,
Speaker 3: and we were like, all right, let's go for it.
Speaker 3: They never went out with only people on the golf
Speaker 3: course that whole day. But I smashed a best drive
Speaker 3: and best three wood of my wife and barely got
Speaker 3: pinhigh on seventeen. So that tells you how much wind
Speaker 3: there was. That's a lot of wind.
Speaker 2: The uh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the first time I played, Yeah, my buddy
Speaker 1: was like, what did you think. I'm like, you know, honestly,
Speaker 1: I can't even tell you because I'm like kind of
Speaker 1: like my I'm a total sensory overload.
Speaker 3: You couldn't take it in.
Speaker 2: Like the second time I played, I like saw i'd
Speaker 2: noticed a lot.
Speaker 3: More stuff like yeah.
Speaker 1: And then the third time I was there, I played
Speaker 1: with like a hit and a per Simon or a
Speaker 1: Hickory driver and a Ballota ball and it was like insane,
Speaker 1: you know, like, all of a sudden, I saw so
Speaker 1: much more than.
Speaker 3: I ever about that restoration movement.
Speaker 1: The seventeenth tea was the most and like this, everybody
Speaker 1: talks about how great seventeen is, right and playing modern,
Speaker 1: it's not a great hole for me because I just
Speaker 1: blasted up the left and there's no thought like but
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden.
Speaker 2: I have a hickory and a Lota in my hand, right,
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden, I saw so many more about.
Speaker 3: That's what the Principal's nose really was, wasn't it. It
Speaker 3: was like a three dimensional hazard when you had to
Speaker 3: try to get the old hickory stuff airborne, because that
Speaker 3: so it was like a.
Speaker 2: Vertical hazard, correct, right, And in all of a sudden.
Speaker 1: The seventeenth I had this like I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: like I got why it was cool, but I at
Speaker 1: the same time, I'm like, nobody can call this is
Speaker 1: the greatest part four in the world right now, because
Speaker 1: like with modern equipment, you just hit it over it,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's not the design's fault. You know,
Speaker 1: it's the governing body's fault. But like it's not like
Speaker 1: you know it by today's standard, is you know, sadly
Speaker 1: not the But then all of a sudden with the
Speaker 1: old equipment, I'm like, but I appreciate that more. And
Speaker 1: then people are like, what are you gonna write about
Speaker 1: this place? And I'm like, frankly, I'm not even right
Speaker 1: right about it. What am I gonna write? What am
Speaker 1: I going to add to.
Speaker 2: The subject right now?
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I haven't even seen and I don't know
Speaker 1: enough about it. You know, certain places you can you know,
Speaker 1: shed light on early on that people haven't provided the places.
Speaker 3: Museum, you could write about so many different things. There's
Speaker 3: like every kind of bunker on the ever you know
Speaker 3: imagined is somewhere out there already.
Speaker 2: Right seventeen, the bunker with the top, I mean.
Speaker 3: That's why, you know, then the next McKell or to
Speaker 3: the trench bunker.
Speaker 2: The inverted bunkers at Garden City are well they're out
Speaker 2: there at National Yeah, it's inverted bunkers need to come back.
Speaker 2: I saw.
Speaker 3: We were talking earlier, right, the the sort of you know,
Speaker 3: the future, right, the change, the reaction to the other stuff. Well,
Speaker 3: there you go, invert bunk.
Speaker 6: You don't need Billy bunker for that, right, So cool
Speaker 6: anyway that doesn't know what invert bunker is like literally
Speaker 6: just think about flipping a bunker over and then just
Speaker 6: put it mound with sand on top of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like the cool ones that certainly a Garden
Speaker 3: City where it's like deep bunker and then it's got
Speaker 3: something in the middle, and then it goes to the
Speaker 3: it's got the trifecta, right, the inverted and then the
Speaker 3: middle stage and then the like deep cavern all in
Speaker 3: like a triplet right there. Those are so Walter Travis.
Speaker 3: It was just brilliant with his creation of features. But
Speaker 3: I think we only got one overrated underrated.
Speaker 2: And then way man time, Well, you know, discussion.
Speaker 3: I'm glad you got brought that back there. I feel
Speaker 3: honored to participate it in that.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a good because it just jumps you
Speaker 1: into these topics.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look at the rabbit hole. It led us into
Speaker 2: mm hmmm. All right, this is enough. You know, the
Speaker 2: second end.
Speaker 3: It's gonna be just sheer, delusional golf nerd stuff after this.
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming on for the second time. All right.
Speaker 1: People can find you on Instagram, proper Golf at proper Golf,
Speaker 1: and they can read all.
Speaker 2: Your stuff on the Friday. You've written a lot of stuff.
Speaker 3: A lot of stuff were fourteen weeks up right, I
Speaker 3: think today or yesterday fourteen went up right from the
Speaker 3: old course Cide wrote about. Yeah, so come down the stretch.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you gotta be like the fifth most contributing author
Speaker 1: on the Friday.
Speaker 3: So I'm gonna remember that then one of these days
Speaker 3: when it' you better be careful. Now we got photographs too,
Speaker 3: I know this is just giving me amo. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Perfect, All right, Well, we'll talk to you soon and
Speaker 1: look forward to seeing edgartown.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I get out there, awesome. Definitely nothing wrong with
Speaker 3: day playing golf in Martha's vineyard.
Speaker 2: There's always time for nine or eighteen or eighteen.
Speaker 3: You gotta play both seven and sixteen