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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: New reports Brian Coburger whining behind bars already as he

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Speaker 2: plots his appeal.

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Speaker 1: Yes, plotting his appeal.

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Speaker 2: Now, remember the whole reason the death penalty was taken.

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Speaker 1: Off the table is so he wouldn't appeal.

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Speaker 2: He's appealing this as Coburger's mommy issues and obsessive hand washing.

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Speaker 1: Comes to light, according to fellow.

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Speaker 2: Inmates and tonight, does evidence indicate Coburger had actually been

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Speaker 2: skulking inside the student's home.

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Speaker 1: Before the night of the murders? How did he get

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Speaker 1: in there?

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Speaker 2: And we're learning did he actually befriend the pet dog?

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Speaker 2: Does this explain why the dog didn't bark and raising

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Speaker 2: an alarm that night?

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grey. This is Crime Stories. I want to

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: Some of these might be familiar, so set up straight

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Speaker 3: when I talk to you. How is your life right

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Speaker 3: before you murdered my sisters? Did you prepare for the

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Speaker 3: crime before leaving your apartment? Please detail what you were

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Speaker 3: thinking and feeling at this time? Why did you choose

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Speaker 3: my sisters before leaving their home? Is there anything else

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Speaker 3: you did? How does it feel to know the only

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Speaker 3: thing you filed more miserably at than being a murderer?

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Speaker 1: Is trying to be a rapper? Tonight, all h e

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Speaker 1: double l breaking loose.

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Speaker 2: As we learn Brian Coburger is plotting an appeal and

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Speaker 2: lying in wait. Lying in wait is an aggravating circumstance

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Speaker 2: to seek the death penalty number one, the death penalty

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Speaker 2: was taken off the table in exchange for Coburger not appealing.

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Speaker 1: If you can't wave.

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Speaker 2: That right, he can appeal a guilty play on any

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Speaker 2: number of grounds.

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Speaker 1: So that was a lie.

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Speaker 2: But lying in wait? Did he actually get into the

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Speaker 2: students home before the night of the murders?

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Speaker 1: What does this mean? Why do I care?

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Speaker 2: Because that shows it was premeditated, that he had plans

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Speaker 2: for a long time actually skulking around in their home

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Speaker 2: getting the lay of the bedrooms.

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Speaker 4: Listen, I think that's a legitimate point. The layout of

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Speaker 4: the house is unique. It was a little bit confusing.

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Speaker 5: Based on self records, Coberger had been around the home

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Speaker 5: more than twenty times at night and in the early

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Speaker 5: morning hours when there was no legitimate reason. During these trips,

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Speaker 5: Coburger is stalking, surveilling his prey, maybe even went inside

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Speaker 5: the residence before the night of the murders. The layout

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Speaker 5: of the house is unique and a little confusing. Important

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Speaker 5: to note Coberger was able to get in and out

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Speaker 5: of the house in the dark without any problems.

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Speaker 4: We certainly believe that those trips were involved mister Coberger

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Speaker 4: looking and surveilling or stalking, whatever the case may be.

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Speaker 2: Why is he the prosecutor is telling us this now,

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Speaker 2: that's from our friends at forty eight hours. He should

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Speaker 2: have told that to a jury while he was seeking

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Speaker 2: the death penalty. With me an all star penelty make

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Speaker 2: sense of what we know right now. But first I

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Speaker 2: want to go straight out to Chris mcdonnaugh. Chris mcdonna,

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Speaker 2: director Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, has worked over

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Speaker 2: three hundred homicides. You can find him online on the

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Speaker 2: interview room on YouTube. That's where I found him. Chris,

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Speaker 2: you and I have scoured the crime scene as much

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Speaker 2: as we possibly could. I want to break down what

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Speaker 2: the prosecutor that dumped out of the death penalty is

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Speaker 2: now saying. It would have been great in an opening statement, right,

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Speaker 2: but that didn't happen. He's saying that there is evidence

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Speaker 2: that Brian Coburger went inside the murder scene the home.

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Speaker 1: Before the night of the murders.

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Speaker 2: To get delay of the home, explain to our viewers

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Speaker 2: and listeners.

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Speaker 1: How the house kind of looks.

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Speaker 2: Like I'm gonna Cheryl maccomy join in in just a moment.

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Speaker 2: The house looks like there may have been add ons.

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Speaker 2: Like there's a front door. Can we see a picture

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Speaker 2: of the King Road to dress please. There's a front

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Speaker 2: door which kind of looks like an add on. But

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Speaker 2: then if you turn it around to what we showed

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Speaker 2: to start with, you see another ad on right there.

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Speaker 2: A lot of the students came in and out of

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Speaker 2: that sliding glass door, and it's jigsawed in a way.

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Speaker 2: It's like a pig path, it's not You walk in

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Speaker 2: the front door and you have an entrance area and

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Speaker 2: a living room and to the right of the kitchen

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Speaker 2: and to the left is the bedrooms.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no. Explain why they now believe.

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Speaker 2: Chris McDonough that Coburger had gone in the home prior.

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Speaker 1: To the night of the murders.

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Speaker 6: So the prosecutor in this case, Nancy Thompson, is saying

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Speaker 6: that there was a belief at the time during the

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Speaker 6: investigation that this house had to have some type of

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Speaker 6: surveillance and or familiarity to Coburger. They're referencing the twenty

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Speaker 6: three times that they had the phone pings. But the

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Speaker 6: layout of this house of you, as you have just explained,

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Speaker 6: it's a three tier level type of environment. And if

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Speaker 6: you were to hang out in the back of that

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Speaker 6: house as you and I have stood, and look directly

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Speaker 6: into that house, it is a direct shot into Maddie's room.

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Speaker 6: And if you go down a small embankment, it's a

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Speaker 6: direct shot into Dylan's room. So you had to have

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Speaker 6: at some point get into that environment to know directly

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Speaker 6: where to go.

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Speaker 7: I e.

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Speaker 6: The third floor up into Maddie's room.

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Speaker 2: Hey, doctor Bethany Marshall joining us. Hold on, Cheryl, I'm

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Speaker 2: getting right to you. But doctor Bethany Marshall just had

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Speaker 2: a thought. Bethany Round, psychoanalyst out of the LA jurisdiction,

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Speaker 2: author of deal Breaker. You can see her now on

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Speaker 2: Peacock and you can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany. Sometimes at night when you get up, like

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Speaker 1: you hear something, or you go to the bathroom or

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Speaker 1: let the dog out, something like that, you know your

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Speaker 1: way around in the dark. You don't have to see

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Speaker 1: because you know the layout. Explain it.

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Speaker 2: How does that work? Is at muscle memory? Because that's

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Speaker 2: what investigators now they're telling us again, should have told

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Speaker 2: it to a jury when they were seeking the death penalty,

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Speaker 2: that there was so much premeditation. They believe Coburger actually

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Speaker 2: went in to the king wrote address and looked around,

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Speaker 2: sculped around, and got the lay of the land.

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Speaker 8: Nancy, it's more than muscle memory. Have you ever gotten

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Speaker 8: up in the middle of the night and the night

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Speaker 8: light went out and you bump into the wall by mistake?

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Speaker 8: You know, all of it, make mistakes, even if we

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Speaker 8: lived in our house for decades. This guy was preoccupied.

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Speaker 8: He probably practiced with his eyes closed.

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Speaker 1: Dancy.

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Speaker 8: This was a sexually motivated crime. So let's think about

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Speaker 8: all of that skulking around as four play. He had

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Speaker 8: a rich fantasy life. He was thinking about what he

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Speaker 8: was going to do.

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Speaker 1: He was a crime student.

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Speaker 8: He already knew that dogs are territorial and that the

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Speaker 8: dog would bark. This guy practiced, That's what I'm hearing.

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Speaker 8: It's more than muscle memory. It's so so creepy and

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Speaker 8: disturbing to know that they were sleeping with that man

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Speaker 8: in their house.

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Speaker 2: You just proved the axiom. Never asked the question. You

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Speaker 2: don't know the answer to. You don't know what the

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Speaker 2: witness is going to say. You just said that him's

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Speaker 2: skulking around the home and stalking it up to twenty

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Speaker 2: three times. I believe more was four play to him,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to go out on a limb again and

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Speaker 2: do it again. Why are you saying that s Coberger's foreplay?

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Speaker 8: Well, because the mo of a serial killer is to

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Speaker 8: inflict maximum damage and cruelty, shed as much blood as possible,

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Speaker 8: see the fear in the victim's eyes, because they find

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Speaker 8: it sexually arousing. So what he's doing is skulking around

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Speaker 8: thinking about how he's going to kill. I think in

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Speaker 8: his mind six people, and there were only four that

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Speaker 8: he was able to do before he got out of

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Speaker 8: the house. But so he's already planning what to him

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Speaker 8: will be a very sexually exciting event. That's why I

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Speaker 8: call it for.

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Speaker 2: Play, Okay, Cheryl McCollum, I'm not going to ask you

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Speaker 2: about casing the scene equals four play. I'm going on

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Speaker 2: leave that to Dr Bethany Marshall. Cheryl McCollum is joining us.

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Speaker 2: She's the founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute.

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Speaker 1: She is a forensics.

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Speaker 2: Expert, and she's the star of a hit podcast, Zone seven.

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Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, can you explain why the theory, the working

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Speaker 2: theory is Coburger was in that home before and again?

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Speaker 1: Why do I care?

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get debate tuned up on this because

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Speaker 2: it shows lying in weight, which is one of the

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Speaker 2: aggravating circumstances to seek the death penalty, such as mask.

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Speaker 1: Murder, which is more than one body, that's mass murder,

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Speaker 1: very often, felony murder such.

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Speaker 2: As you commit a crime in the commission of a rape,

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Speaker 2: you're committing a felony, and you commit a murder, a

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Speaker 2: murder in the middle of a felony, shooting a police

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Speaker 2: officer or an elected official, killing somebody behind bars, all

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Speaker 2: of those are aggravating circumstances under which you seek the

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Speaker 2: death penalty. Killing for a pecuniary or money interest aggravating

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Speaker 2: circumstance under which you can seek the death penalty. Lying

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Speaker 2: in wait is a prime candidate as an ag circumstance

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Speaker 2: for the dp Okay, if he went in that home.

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Speaker 1: Ryl that is and wait, planning, Why do you believe, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: as I now do, he was in that home before

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Speaker 1: the murders.

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Speaker 7: There's three things that stuck out to me that weren't

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Speaker 7: a deterrent for him. Number One, the dog. He wasn't

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Speaker 7: worried about that dog marking or attacking him or anything else.

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Speaker 7: He wasn't worried that there was another man in that house,

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Speaker 7: not a deterrent. And the third thing the brand new car.

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Speaker 1: There was a.

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Speaker 7: Car that was brand new that wasn't there in the past.

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Speaker 7: He was not deterred that there was somebody in that house.

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Speaker 7: He didn't know when he entered. He went straight to

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Speaker 7: his target, which was the third floor.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Cheryl McCollum, that's

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Speaker 2: a really good point. And I guess we all knew that,

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Speaker 2: but when you enunciated it, it makes so.

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Speaker 1: Much more sense. You walk into this home which does

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Speaker 1: not have a.

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Speaker 2: Clear path like I was describing earlier, like in modern

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Speaker 2: modern layouts, why would you know to walk in and

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Speaker 2: go straight up to the third floor and how to

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Speaker 2: get there?

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Speaker 1: Because from what I can tell.

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Speaker 2: And there's any three day rendition of this, as they

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Speaker 2: tore the house down. They had to get a three

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Speaker 2: day rendition and it kind of takes you in and through.

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Speaker 2: This would have been used at trial if the DA

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Speaker 2: had the backbone to try the case. See that it's

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Speaker 2: very circuitous. How would you know to go in and

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Speaker 2: how to get straight up to the third floor unless

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Speaker 2: you had been there before.

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Speaker 9: And speaking of the dog, listen Keeley's dog, Murphy started

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Speaker 9: acting strange in the months leading up to Keiley's murderer.

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Speaker 9: Surviving roommate Bethany Funk and Keeley's ex boyfriend told similar

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Speaker 9: stories to police about Keylee's seeing a shadowy figure behind

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Speaker 9: the house when she walked Murphy. Murphy started running away

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Speaker 9: from home and acting strange.

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Speaker 1: Murphy ran up to.

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Speaker 9: The bushes behind the house and would not return when called.

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Speaker 9: Some speculate Coberger was secretly befriending Murphy so he would

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Speaker 9: not bark when he entered the home to kill.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Cheryl McCollum, If that doesn't run a chill down

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Speaker 2: your spine, I don't know what will. Because the girls

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Speaker 2: have stated the survivors that there were several occasions when

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Speaker 2: they would go outside and Murphy the dog would go

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Speaker 2: up to the tree line. Hey, can we see that

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Speaker 2: photo again in your control room, that the dog would

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Speaker 2: go up to the shree line, to the edge of

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Speaker 2: the tree line and bark furiously, so Cheryl McCollum. It's

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Speaker 2: even been speculated that he was there stalking them, steering

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Speaker 2: into the home with those freaky eyes that we saw

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Speaker 2: at sentencing, looking at the girls, looking at the layout

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Speaker 2: of the home, and Murphy hit on him. Some people

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Speaker 2: even think giving the dog treats to befriend the dog.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine the girls.

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Speaker 2: They're in the light, as we're saying, right there, that's

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Speaker 2: a perfect picture for it. They're in the light, they

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Speaker 2: can't see in the dark, and Coburger's standing out there.

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Speaker 2: On one of those at least twenty three trips to

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Speaker 2: the murder scene, the girls come out, they can't see

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Speaker 2: in the tree line, but the dog can smell Coburger.

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Speaker 7: She's sawing.

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Speaker 10: She told her boyfriend, she told her roommates, she told

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Speaker 10: her parents.

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Speaker 7: This was not a one time event. And I believe

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Speaker 7: not only did he drive around in stalk, I think

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Speaker 7: he parked where you told us you could see into

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Speaker 7: the house, so well, all he had to do was

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Speaker 7: wait for her to walk the dog go inside, what

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Speaker 7: bedroom light does she turn on? He knew exactly what

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Speaker 7: room to go to, even without entering the home. He

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Speaker 7: was well prepared. He had planned, he had stalked, he

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Speaker 7: had researched, He was ready.

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Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix. Cheryl McCollum is absolutely right.

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Speaker 2: On some occasions, we learned that they couldn't see anything

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Speaker 2: in the tree line. They didn't understand why the dog

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Speaker 2: was barking at the trees on those specific occasions when

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Speaker 2: he didn't do it on other occasions.

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Speaker 1: But Sheryl's right.

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Speaker 2: There was an occasion, guys, Susan Hendrix, investigative journalist, reporter,

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Speaker 2: author of Down the Heel My Descent to the Double

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Speaker 2: Murder in Del Fi, who was at the Coburger Senate, saying, Susan,

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Speaker 2: one of the girls, at least one of them, did

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Speaker 2: see a shadowy figure in the tree line. They saw

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Speaker 2: a guy standing in the tree line.

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Speaker 1: Come on, please, does two and two still equal four?

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Speaker 2: I'm asking you that Susan not debate, because who else

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Speaker 2: would it be. They saw a guy stalking them from

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Speaker 2: the tree line, and they told people about it.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely.

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Speaker 11: Kelly told Bethany and in the beginning of the investigation,

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Speaker 11: we heard whispers about Kelly having a stalker, and I

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Speaker 11: believe that this was so planned co worker, that he

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Speaker 11: may even had dog treats to give the dog. I'm

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Speaker 11: thinking so I believe he stalked at home, and as

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Speaker 11: you said, knew exactly where to walk, but twenty plus times,

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Speaker 11: and you're right, I think even more. But think about

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Speaker 11: it going there, maybe with dog treats. And he looked

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Speaker 11: at that, I think as an obstacle. Okay, how do

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Speaker 11: I get in here? I have to befriend the dog.

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Speaker 11: And I think he did just that, and Kelly was afraid.

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Speaker 11: One night she was on the phone with her roommates

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Speaker 11: and said, can you come home? I saw some guy

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Speaker 11: staring at me. I believe it was Coburger.

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Speaker 12: Of the emergency. You don't know what the emergency. What

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Speaker 12: is the rest of the address. Oh okay, and there's

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Speaker 12: a house and apartment. Can you repeat theadres to make

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Speaker 12: that I have it right.

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Speaker 7: I'll talk to you guys. We're we live a Delights,

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Speaker 7: so we're next to them.

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Speaker 12: I need someone to repeat the aadress for raification.

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Speaker 1: The address one one to two kingdoms? Why was there

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Speaker 1: a deal?

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Speaker 2: How did Brian Coburger escape the death penalty. As late

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Speaker 2: as last night, victim's family texting me stating, we're hearing

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Speaker 2: he doesn't even believe in the death penalty. Could that

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Speaker 2: be true? Do the constituentsy know that? And also one

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Speaker 2: of the keystones of the deal a deal for Coburger

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Speaker 2: wasn't a deal for the victims, was that he wouldn't appeal.

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Speaker 4: Listen, it was our conclusion that straight up guilty, please

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Speaker 4: as charged, waiver of appeal for closures so we have

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Speaker 4: accountability and closure with fixed life sentences was the best course.

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Speaker 2: The best course, you mean, the easiest course for you.

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Speaker 2: That was the district attorney that did not take this

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Speaker 2: case to trial to find out the truth. We're giving

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Speaker 2: the truth in little drips and dribbles, like the fact

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Speaker 2: that Coburger may have been in the home stalking it

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Speaker 2: before the murders. Inside the girls' homes. How many times

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Speaker 2: do you think he went in there? Did he go

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Speaker 2: through their underwear drawer, did he smell their perfume? Did

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Speaker 2: he sit on their bed and have fantasies? You were

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Speaker 2: just hearing the prosecutor on our friend's show forty eight hours.

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Speaker 2: But all that is a bill of goods. He can appeal.

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Speaker 5: Listen, when Brian Coberger took the plea deal that saved

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Speaker 5: his life, he also agreed to not appeal the decision

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Speaker 5: in the future, waving his right to appeal. However, defendants

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Speaker 5: still have the right to post conviction relief even if

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Speaker 5: they waived their right to a bial issues like ineffective

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Speaker 5: assistance council, a discovery violation, prosecutorial misconduct, or that he

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Speaker 5: was pressured into taking the deal.

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Speaker 1: Wellus honally.

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Speaker 2: The lawyer joining me tonight, Philip Debay, high profile lawyer

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Speaker 2: joining us out of LA has tried a lot of

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Speaker 2: felony cases. Philip Debay to suggest that Brian Coburger will

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Speaker 2: not appeal, that's not true. He absolutely can appeal. Look

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Speaker 2: at Scott Peterson. How many times.

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Speaker 1: Has this guy appealed.

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Speaker 2: It's over and over and over, and he keeps finding

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Speaker 2: a habeast, then a post conviction relief.

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Speaker 1: It just goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 2: There's nothing stopping Coburger from appealing.

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Speaker 13: Debate.

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Speaker 14: Yeah, and that's what the US Supreme Court said, which

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Speaker 14: is why I don't understand why people throw in that

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Speaker 14: condition of the plea. Why would you condition a plea

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Speaker 14: upon waiving all your repellent rights. When the US Supreme

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Speaker 14: Court chimed in back in twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: In Garza versus Idaho.

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Speaker 14: Ironically, a plea agreement is basically a contract, and that

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Speaker 14: you cannot contemplate at the time of the plea. All

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Speaker 14: constitutional issues, particularly unique to a specific defendant, to rise

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Speaker 14: to the level of a knowing, intelligent, and voluntary waiver

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Speaker 14: of those rights. But my response to all that.

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Speaker 2: Is let him I disagree, and I'll tell you why,

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Speaker 2: because certain evidentiary issues only arise after the conviction or

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Speaker 2: the plea. For instance, just off the top of my head,

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Speaker 2: let's go with Alex Murdog, that sack of crap a

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Speaker 2: technical legal term. Alex Murdog absolutely murdered his wife, Maggie

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Speaker 2: and his son Paul, his own son. Why over all

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Speaker 2: of his millions and millions of dollars of embezzlement from

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Speaker 2: his clients, one of them a quadriplegic, and it was

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Speaker 2: all going to come out in Maggie's divorce, Okay, alternative murder,

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Speaker 2: double murder. Only after after the conviction did the clerk

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Speaker 2: of the courts publish a book. And it was then

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Speaker 2: a juror said, Oh, she tried to get me to

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Speaker 2: play guilty.

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Speaker 1: Is that true? Don't know, but those are the claims.

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Speaker 2: So there's no way under our jurisprudence that you can

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Speaker 2: sign off to issues that you'll never appeal, that you

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Speaker 2: don't even know about. Impossible. There's no way that Coburger

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Speaker 2: is not plotting an appeal. No way. Crime stories with

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Speaker 2: Nancy Grace, p c R. Post conviction relief Lady. Justice

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Speaker 2: doesn't always care if you had a jury trial or

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Speaker 2: you play guilty.

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Speaker 1: If there is a.

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Speaker 2: Perceived misdoing, there will be a remedy under the law.

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Speaker 1: Come on, debate.

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Speaker 2: Everybody appeals, much less somebody that just got moved to solitary.

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Speaker 14: Right course, Well, the distinction between Garza and Coburger is

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Speaker 14: in Garza, what happened was he kept telling his lawyer,

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Speaker 14: I want to appeal, and council let the deadline to

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Speaker 14: file just sort of lapse. And what the High Court

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Speaker 14: said is no, you are presumptively ineffective under the six

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Speaker 14: and fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution if you fail to

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Speaker 14: timely appeal as asked by your client. So let's just

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Speaker 14: pretend hypothetically that he would have timely appealed. Then what

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Speaker 14: the court would do is go back, look at the

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Speaker 14: waiver form, look at the transcript of the plea to

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Speaker 14: determine if his flea was given knowingly, intelligently and voluntarily.

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Speaker 14: So again my response is let him because by all accounts,

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Speaker 14: when you look at the plane language of that transcript,

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Speaker 14: he answered every question. He didn't hesitate, he didn't stumble,

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Speaker 14: he didn't stammer. He answered coherently, pithy, terse and.

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Speaker 2: Cojently straight out to Susan Hendrix joining us investigative journalists

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Speaker 2: there at the sentencing. Part of the deal that the

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Speaker 2: DA sold everybody is that there would be no appeal,

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Speaker 2: that somehow this would be the end of it all.

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Speaker 11: That's not true, Nancy, And that is where the frustration was.

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Speaker 11: And I even saw it during the victim impact statements

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Speaker 11: and sentencing hearing. I looked over Steve Gongalvez, Kelly's father,

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Speaker 11: when the prosecutor got up and said almost making excuses

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Speaker 11: as to why the plea deal happened. I even wrote

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Speaker 11: in my notes, not the place or time, But I

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Speaker 11: looked over and I see Steve shaking his head. That

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Speaker 11: family is still upset that there was a plea dealing

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Speaker 11: deep down what he had done to their daughter, stabbed

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Speaker 11: thirty four times, Kaylee. They wanted justice, they wanted the

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Speaker 11: death penalty, and that was cut off from them too.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Kindall Crowns joining us renow medical examiner out of

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Speaker 2: Terent County, that's Fort Worth, Texas. He is a star

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Speaker 2: of a brand new podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue. He

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Speaker 2: is esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Kendall Crowns explain the facial wounds.

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Speaker 1: That Kiley Gonsolve suffered.

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Speaker 15: Certainly so, she has what is described as facial mutilation

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Speaker 15: to the eyes and nose. And what can be seen

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Speaker 15: is when someone is stabbing an individual with a heavy

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Speaker 15: knife is what was supposed to be used. They can

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Speaker 15: plunge the knife into the facial bones and into the

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Speaker 15: eyes and into the kind of thinner bones of the

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Speaker 15: face and crush those bones while they're stabbing into the face.

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Speaker 15: It takes a large amount of force, but from the descriptions,

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Speaker 15: it sounds like there's a very bit of cast off

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Speaker 15: all over the place that he's probably really pounding on

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Speaker 15: her head with the knife in place causing the sharp

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Speaker 15: force injuries, and then there's also a description of blood

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Speaker 15: force injuries which to be caused by a blunt object

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Speaker 15: that they haven't found yet. It could be caused from

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Speaker 15: the handle of the knife as well another object at

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Speaker 15: the scene that hasn't been found that could have been

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Speaker 15: used to crush her face and pound in her face

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Speaker 15: and break her skull.

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Speaker 2: And Mattie Mogan's attack was brutal. I think she sustained

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Speaker 2: even more stab wounds than Kelly did, although Kelly's were

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Speaker 2: in the face. What about Mattie's attack, Doctor crowns.

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Speaker 15: So Mattie has multiple in sized and stab wounds, plus

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Speaker 15: penetrating injuries of the lungs and liver. She would have

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Speaker 15: had to have had multiple stab wounds that go into

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Speaker 15: her chest cavity, into her abdominal cavity. Probably she's laying

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Speaker 15: in her bed and being stabbed brutally in the chest

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Speaker 15: and abdomen. And then she has what are called in

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Speaker 15: size wounds, which are longer wounds than they are deep,

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Speaker 15: which can be from the knife being drawn across her

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Speaker 15: body causing these large, gaping wounds as well.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum joining us who investigated this case herself, and

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Speaker 1: after you hear those injuries and about Ethan being slashed

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Speaker 1: across his jugular with arterial bleeding, shooting up to the

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Speaker 1: ceiling and all over the room.

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Speaker 2: We took a deal because he wouldn't appeal, and now

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Speaker 2: he can.

439
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,640
Speaker 1: Appeal, Cheryl McCollum. A deal for who.

440
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 10: If you were ever going to use the death penalty,

441
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 10: it's in this case. You have four young people completely innocent,

442
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 10: had harmed. No one was not involved in anything illegal.

443
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 10: They were in their home, in their beds, and Nancy,

444
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 10: when you describe the injuries, this was not some.

445
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 7: Real quick from a distance, This was a very violent,

446
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 7: long scene. This was not quick. He took time with

447
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 7: every single victim to ensure that he had killed them.

448
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 4: She's not.

449
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 12: Okay, one woman, I'm going to help her going.

450
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: If the world had known the horrific injuries, Killy Glensavas's

451
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 2: face stabbed so many times, she is disfigured and beyond identification.

452
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 11: Matty Mugen leans to the face Xana Kernodle more than

453
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 11: fifty stab wounds, fifty It's unbelievable.

454
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 15: He brutalized each and every one.

455
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 2: Of them, and tonight while Coburger is gnashing his teeth

456
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: and twisting his tail, plotting his appeal that he swore

457
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: he wouldn't launch. We're also learning about his obsessive hand

458
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: washing behind bars, and that Coburger has a mummy issue.

459
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 2: Let's start with the hand washing obsession.

460
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: Listen.

461
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 9: Ryan Coberger's hygiene habits reportedly irked other inmates at the

462
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 9: Leita County Jail. They say Coburger washed his hands dozens

463
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 9: of times every day, and the only thing longer than

464
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 9: his showers were his phone calls to his mother. While

465
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 9: Coburger was seen wearing gloves in public and to throw

466
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 9: away his trash in the weeks after the murders. It's

467
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 9: unclear if the convicted quadruple killer is still concerned about

468
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 9: leaving DNA or is a certified germophobe with that in mind.

469
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: Two, Doctor Bethany Marshall, that's quite the dichotomy, is it not.

470
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 2: Because this crime scene was so horrific. The students were slaughtered.

471
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 2: They were slaughtered. It was horrible. It's unlike anything you

472
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 2: see on TV or movies. Its smells, it's grimy, it's horrible.

473
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: The victims are lying there, they have been dead for hours.

474
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 2: Bleeding out, but yet the killer obsessively washes his hands.

475
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 1: Explain the dichotomy.

476
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: How can that be that the says of hand washer

477
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 2: left such a horrific crime, saying, well, you see the.

478
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 8: Thumbs up photo where he's in front of the shower curtain.

479
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 8: It's like he was in a hurry to clean everything off,

480
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 8: as well as his hands. You know, Nancy, he could

481
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 8: have OCD, which is obsessive compulsive disorder, and in that case,

482
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 8: the person has an intrusive thought that they can only.

483
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: Neutralize by an act.

484
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 8: So the thought could be I'm in prison, I'm in

485
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 8: a cage full of feces. It's very dirty here. That's

486
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 8: the intrusive thought. The action is I'm going to take long,

487
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 8: long showers and wash my hands as much as possible

488
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 8: to get off all these germs. So think about the

489
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 8: type of punishment this is for him. I'm not as

490
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 8: upset by the death sentence or the lack of the

491
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 8: death sentence immediately, because I think it's sort of just

492
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 8: tos served to put somebody with OCD in a very

493
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 8: filthy prison with feces all around, where their brain is

494
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 8: just going to fire and fire and fire and tell

495
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 8: them that there are germs all over him. Seems to

496
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 8: be like justice served.

497
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 2: Okay, well you know what, Cheryl McCollum, could you please

498
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 2: respond to Dr Bethany that it's worse to be behind

499
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 2: bars without pure l than it is to get the

500
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: death penalty.

501
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: How wrong that is? Hit it.

502
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 7: If we are going to go by an eye for

503
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 7: an eye, he does not deserve to take another breath.

504
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 9: Period.

505
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 7: He took something from these families and their friends that

506
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 7: cannot be replaced. And I'll tell you something. It can't

507
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 7: even be an eye for an eye. It's not equal here.

508
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 7: These children were loved, they were smart, they were beautiful,

509
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 7: they were just about to take off and be whoever

510
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 7: they were destined to be. And he stole that. He

511
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 7: stole graduations, he stole jobs, he stole future marriages, he

512
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:57,360
Speaker 7: stole future children. He deserves the ultimate punishment.

513
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: Chris McDonald, I didn't know where she was going on

514
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: this as well. The skulking in the home equals sexual foreplay.

515
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 2: I got that bomb dropped onmmy. Now, doctor Bethany is

516
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 2: saying that for Coburger, being behind bars with that purel

517
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 2: is worse than the death penalty. Could you please respond

518
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: to her.

519
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 6: You know, so, let's put ourselves into that room just

520
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 6: for a moment. The very first thing you will recognize

521
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 6: immediately is the silence in that room. The second thing

522
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 6: you will recognize is the cast off and the amount

523
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 6: of rage and horror that took place. The third thing

524
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 6: you will recognize is imagining this person who's caused playing

525
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 6: Ted Bundy Hey in the backyard, and then he's in

526
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 6: your room almost immediately as the helper to brutally kill you.

527
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 6: This is what these victims saw, specifically Kaylee and Maddie.

528
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 6: They experienced it first. It's horrific.

529
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, you know. To doctor Bethony Marshall,

530
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: I'm thinking through all of his amenities at his new digs,

531
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: there's really nothing stopping him. Since he's got use of

532
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 2: a tablet, he has cable, he has money to fund

533
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 2: his iPad.

534
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 1: I don't think anything is.

535
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 2: Precluding him from ordering Netflix or Prime or Showtime or

536
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: anything else. When he's tired of reliving the murders, he.

537
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 1: Can just hop on to one of the pay channels.

538
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: I mean, this is wrong, No wonder the Gonsalvast family

539
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: was so angry about the deal.

540
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 8: And you know what else he's going to have access to, Nancy,

541
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 8: psychotropic medication. And what that means is that not only

542
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 8: will he get tired of his fantasies, but then he'll

543
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 8: have pay television, the iPad, whatever else he wants, Nancy,

544
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 8: is that there will be expert psychiatric care. Because OCD

545
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 8: is very biologically motivated. So all those scary thoughts, anxious thoughts,

546
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 8: they're going to calm down and he's going to be

547
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 8: in better shape that he's been in a long long time.

548
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 8: And let's say he's watching next Fit, Netflix or pay

549
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 8: per view television. Even just looking at a woman is

550
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 8: going to get him excited. He can make mountains out

551
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 8: of a molehill, Nancy. So this is all kinds of

552
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 8: material that somebody who is a sexual sadist should not

553
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 8: have access to.

554
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: We are also learning about Ryan Coberger's mommy issues.

555
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 5: Listen, Goberger lost his temper at another inmate who he

556
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 5: believed was insulting his mother. According to a police report

557
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 5: detailing in counts, Coberger was on a video call with

558
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 5: his mother when a fellow in May yelled, you suck

559
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 5: at a television screen while watching sports. Coberger assuming the

560
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 5: insult was directed at him or his mother aggressively approached

561
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 5: to the inmate and question if the comments were aimed

562
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 5: at them. The situation was resolved quickly after the two

563
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 5: inmates discussed the misunderstanding.

564
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: So Coberger has a physical altercation with another inmate on

565
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 2: the misperception. The inmate commented about his mother, Okay, mommy

566
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: issues out the ying yang Bethany.

567
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 8: You know, I think what's interesting about murderers is that

568
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 8: they often see their mothers as pristine, as a source

569
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 8: of comfort.

570
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:42,800
Speaker 1: You know, when.

571
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 8: Inmates escape from jail, as you once said, where do

572
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 8: you find them? Hiding in mommy's house? That's always where

573
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 8: they go.

574
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: And I think it's.

575
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 8: Because that early, early attachment makes them believe that that

576
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 8: person will never ever turn away from them, that there

577
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 8: will always be comfort and care. But you know what,

578
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 8: it's not always true, Nancy. Sometimes these mothers, just like

579
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 8: Casey Anthony's mom, they're onto their child after a while

580
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 8: and that comfort and care is withdrawn.

581
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 2: And that may just happen to Brian Coberger. He was

582
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 2: on a faceheime rzi with his mother. If he can

583
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 2: do that, what's next?

584
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 8: OnlyFans if he has access to his mother Nancy, he

585
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 8: can gain access to whatever he wants.

586
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: And we know that men.

587
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 8: Who think like this need very little material to spark

588
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 8: their sexual fantasies. That's what I am worried about. And

589
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 8: we know that sex offenders, in particular, when they get

590
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 8: out of jail, which Brian Coberg Coworger never will, they

591
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 8: are angrier, more aroused, and more ready to offend than ever.

592
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 8: So in some ways, he's being given his own version

593
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 8: of pornography to respond to. It may not mean anything

594
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 8: to anybody else, but in his fantasy life, it will

595
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 8: mean a lot to him.

596
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: The stabs so deep, her liver is lacerated, stabbed thirty times.

597
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 1: So many stab worms, so many stab wounds, a lacerated liver.

598
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 2: Nearly every study of serial killers includes the keeping of trophies. Trophies,

599
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 2: whether it's a victim's jewelry, whether it's a driver's license,

600
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 2: whether it's underwear or a garment, a piece of clothing,

601
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 2: a photo. It's very, very In fact, it's predictable that

602
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: a killer keeps a trophy. Like you and I would

603
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 2: keep ticket stubs to a concert or a photo album.

604
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 2: They keep memento souvenirs of their murders.

605
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 13: Listen, Coberger captain trophies from women he knew, including two

606
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 13: ID type cards belonging to women he knew years before

607
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 13: the murders. One belonged to a woman he worked with

608
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 13: at the Pleasant Valley School District when he was a

609
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 13: security guard at the school. There's no way of knowing

610
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 13: how he got the IDs, how long he had them,

611
00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:14,399
Speaker 13: or what he planned to do with them.

612
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 4: You know.

613
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: Chris McDonald joining me, founder director of.

614
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 2: The Cole Case Foundation, and you can find him now

615
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 2: on the interview room on YouTube. Chris mcdonna very often

616
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 2: when you process a crime, saying, you see all sorts

617
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 2: of things, but you don't realize their significance. But now

618
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 2: we see that Coburger kept trophies.

619
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: He kept these ideas of.

620
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 2: Women that are alive. Thank Heaven that he knew years ago.

621
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,320
Speaker 2: Why and when you go to a crime saying, you

622
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 2: don't always realize what you've got. You don't realize that's

623
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: a trophy from some other incident.

624
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, And when you start thinking about that at length financy,

625
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 6: you realize the the statistic fantasy that was playing out

626
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,320
Speaker 6: here in this particular case, there are two identification cards

627
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:13,840
Speaker 6: from gals that he apparently had contact with way prior

628
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 6: to the homicides. But what it does tell us is

629
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 6: it gives us an insight into his fantasy based plan

630
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 6: that the reason these individuals take those types of items

631
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 6: is to relive the events and they transfer that into

632
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 6: this sexual you know, play that they believe is going

633
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 6: on in their heads. And you know, the doc can

634
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 6: tell us a lot deeper about why that is.

635
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,879
Speaker 2: Yes, Susan Henricks, before I get a shrink in on this,

636
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 2: what do we know about the women whose IDs he had?

637
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 2: And what we're talking about? To start that Q and

638
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 2: A is when you look at his apartment, but you

639
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: may see trophies that you don't even realize are trophies.

640
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: It could be.

641
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 2: A scarf, it could be a pair of socks, it

642
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 2: could be anything that reminds him of a particular woman.

643
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 16: Absolutely, and the id's that he did take. Investigators in

644
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 16: the beginning went to those women and they said, we

645
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 16: know who he is. He was never any threat. I

646
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 16: think maybe this was a drive run. How sneaky do

647
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 16: you have to be to get someone's ID? Did you

648
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,240
Speaker 16: break into their house? Did you steal their wallet? How'd

649
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 16: you get it? He's sneaky. That tells me that he

650
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 16: was in that house, like you said earlier, during the party,

651
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 16: getting to know Kayley's doll. All of this to me said,

652
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 16: Oh he put those women's IDs?

653
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 1: How how is the question?

654
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: You know, it's freaky, Doctor Bethany what Susan Hendricks just

655
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,720
Speaker 2: said about him going to the home maybe during a party,

656
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 2: maybe skulking around on his own and like sniffing their pillowcase.

657
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 2: But what she said about how did he get these

658
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 2: other women's IDs? Did he pilfer through their pocketbook? Did

659
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 2: he stick his nose in their purse and smell it?

660
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: What else?

661
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: Did he take their lipstick, their perfume, their comb? But

662
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 2: just imagine Coburger going room to room when I guess

663
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: nobody was there, looking around, figuring out the layout, picking

664
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: up their items, looking at them.

665
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: You know, he smelled them. I don't know what were

666
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 1: just fealing If.

667
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:40,319
Speaker 2: He did so, I don't know what that means. I

668
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: just know that it happens. You can explain what it

669
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 2: all means.

670
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 8: Well, of course, smelling the underwear and putting on the

671
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 8: lipstick like b t K Killer. Remember he dressed himself

672
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 8: up in women's stockings, and clothing. It's like inhabiting the

673
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 8: victim in fantasy, having sex with the victim, gaining proximity

674
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 8: to the victim, Nancy. We would all be naive to

675
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 8: think that the murder victims are the only people he stalked.

676
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 8: That's one thing. But I think what's fascinating is the

677
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 8: ID cards as opposed to women's underwear, because what that

678
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 8: tells me is you cannot pursue or identify somebody through

679
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,959
Speaker 8: their underwear. There's no social Security number on it, there's

680
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 8: no telephone number or address. But once you have someone's ID,

681
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 8: you can track them, Nancy. So this is akin to

682
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 8: like somebody's book reading list. You know, it's the next

683
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,439
Speaker 8: book he's going to check out at the library. Or

684
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 8: with some of my patients who are sex addicts, they're

685
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 8: porn cash on their computers. It's the next video they're

686
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 8: going to look at. So this tells me that sniffying

687
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 8: women's underwear was simply not enough. He had graduated. He

688
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 8: was graduating to collecting IDs to id future victims.

689
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 1: You know another thing about did you get into the home?

690
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: How did he get those IDs from the other women?

691
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: What other trophies are in his apartment that we don't

692
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: even know, we can't identify that they are trophies. But

693
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: he got those.

694
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 2: IDs from those women, and they don't know how he

695
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 2: got them. And it's leading me back to another intrusion,

696
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 2: and that Susan Hendrix is from a female colleague he

697
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 2: had where he offered to help her.

698
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: Those words echo in my mind because he said that

699
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: to one of the murder victims. I'm here to help you.

700
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: He offered to help the female colleague set up her

701
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 2: WiFi in her home, but he set it up so

702
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 2: he could spy on her in all the rooms in

703
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 2: her home, watching her watch TV, changing clothes in her bedroom,

704
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 2: walking naked into her kitchen to turn on the coffee pot.

705
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: He helped her too, didn't he.

706
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 16: Yeah, And she felt uneasy. She felt like someone was

707
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 16: watching her or following her. So she went to Coburger, thinking, Hey,

708
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 16: the man he can help you set it up, when

709
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 16: it was actually I believed him making her feel uncomfortable

710
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 16: and he's the guy that's going to show which means

711
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 16: more access to this woman. You're absolutely right when saying

712
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 16: no way, are the women in that home who are

713
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 16: really murdered by this manner? The first women that he

714
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 16: has stopped or followed.

715
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 2: No way, Philip Gibei. It's the same thing over and

716
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 2: over and over again. When you don't know what he's

717
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: going to do, look at what he's already done. Again,

718
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 2: when you don't know a horse, look at his track record.

719
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 2: We know he had these trophies from these other two women,

720
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 2: and they can't explain how he got them. Their ideas, pocketbook,

721
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 2: home workstation. Nobody knows. We know he got into his

722
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 2: female coworkers' home to help her set up her WiFi

723
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 2: and her nanny cams that she had in her home,

724
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 2: her surveillance so he could watch her.

725
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: He could get into her home. So what does that

726
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: tell me? He did get into this.

727
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 2: Home to stalk them and get the lay of the land,

728
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 2: which goes to lying in white and seeking the death penalty.

729
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: Do you ever wish your client would surprise you?

730
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,799
Speaker 2: But no, they do the same thing over and over

731
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: and over again, just like cobragrams.

732
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 14: I'm not feeling that in this case. I don't think

733
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 14: that the theft of those two ID cards was sexually

734
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 14: motivated in any way, shape or form. And I'm telling

735
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 14: you this is just based on decades of working in

736
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,760
Speaker 14: the justice system. What I am seeing is the dawning

737
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 14: days of the gateway crime, namely petty theft, just stealing

738
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 14: two identity or ID cards as a crime of opportunity

739
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 14: that could eventually lead to bigger and greater crimes, and

740
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 14: the fact that he was able to pull it off

741
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 14: gave him a thirst to commit greater offenses. But I

742
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 14: don't think the theft of those two cards was sexually motivated.

743
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 14: Maybe at most he was going to commit identity theft

744
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 14: with them.

745
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: Are you a shrink? No, you're not.

746
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 2: Bethany is a shrink, all right, she's a psychoanalyst.

747
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: And I didn't ask you a strinth question.

748
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,240
Speaker 2: I asked you about defendants that keep doing the same

749
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,800
Speaker 2: thing over and over and over.

750
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany.

751
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 2: Really two women that he works with that somehow he

752
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 2: gets in their home their workstation or their pocketbook or

753
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 2: their car, and Pilfer's around and steals IDs that he

754
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 2: keeps for years. And Dubey says, it's not sexually motivated,

755
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 2: it's about petty theft.

756
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: Okay, well, you know what, drop the mic.

757
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 8: Well, this shows me the amount of the preoccupation that

758
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 8: he has. And it's not just a preoccupation with sex

759
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 8: or stalking or anything like that. It's a preoccupation with

760
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 8: inflicting maximum harm in order to enhance sexual arousal. He

761
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 8: is a statist. He's also a voyeur because now he's

762
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 8: spying on this woman and he's stalking, because it's a

763
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,280
Speaker 8: part of victim selection. Think about what we know about

764
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 8: serial killers. Sometimes they'll from city to city, or neighborhood

765
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 8: to neighborhood, or jump on the railway or whatever, or

766
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 8: spend a lot of time online because they're looking for

767
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 8: the perfect victim, maybe like you and I looking for

768
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 8: a Michel unrated restaurant. You know, we'll just want the

769
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 8: best meal on our vacation or something like that. So

770
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 8: these all these people, all these women were in his sights.

771
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,280
Speaker 8: The male victim was slashed, you know, his throat was slashed,

772
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 8: but the women were stabbed repeatedly. And I had the

773
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 8: same thought doctor Kendall Crown is that he was wanting

774
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 8: to get the guy out of the way because the

775
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 8: women were his object of sexual interest.

776
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 2: Will Brian Coiberger appeal. I'll put money on it. But

777
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 2: as we wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off,

778
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 2: goodbye friend,