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Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,

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Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's

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Speaker 1: episode is going to be a longer one part of

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Speaker 1: the series where I interview fascinating people about how they

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Speaker 1: take their days from great to awesome and any advice

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Speaker 1: they might have for the rest of us. So today

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Speaker 1: I am delighted to welcome Courtney Carver to the show.

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Speaker 1: Courtney has a devoted following for her teachings on minimalism

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Speaker 1: and simplicity. Lots of people have been inspired by her

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Speaker 1: project three thirty three Minimalist Fashion Challenge. She is the

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Speaker 1: author of the book Soulful Simplicity and the brand new

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Speaker 1: book Gentle, which bills itself about being how to rest

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Speaker 1: more stress less, live the life you actually want. Things.

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Speaker 1: We are all into here. So Courtney, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm happy to chat with you again.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, maybe you could tell our listeners a little

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Speaker 1: bit more more about yourself.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, you summed it up so nicely.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't know, fun fact, anything else you want

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Speaker 1: to share.

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Speaker 2: I live in Salt Lake City, and as you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: this is my third book and I've been writing and

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Speaker 2: kind of being in the online world since twenty ten,

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Speaker 2: which feels like two minutes ago and one hundred years ago.

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Speaker 2: So sometimes I don't know how to feel about that,

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Speaker 2: but I'm happy to be here and love, love, love

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Speaker 2: what I do, and have simplified my life over that

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Speaker 2: time span and even prior after being diagnosed with MS

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and six, which really is what propelled

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Speaker 2: me into looking at ways to have less stress in

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Speaker 2: my life and feel healthier and more content with what

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Speaker 2: I have.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's talk about that with the MS angle there,

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Speaker 1: because you've written very openly about that, which I really appreciate.

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Speaker 1: But you had gotten your diagnosis, I mean, your health

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Speaker 1: was in not a great place I assume at the

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Speaker 1: point of getting the diagnosis, and you're facing down treatments

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Speaker 1: for that and uncertainty of how this is all going

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Speaker 1: to go. I mean, what made the link between that

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Speaker 1: and simplifying things? I mean what occurred there that made

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Speaker 1: you think, well, this is the direction I should be going.

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Speaker 2: Well, I never really thought that for a long time

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Speaker 2: because when I was diagnosed, I was working in advertising sales,

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Speaker 2: lots of deadlines. It was in magazines, so really quick

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Speaker 2: turnarounds and lots and lots of work, always over extending myself,

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Speaker 2: really wanting to achieve some level of success, although I

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Speaker 2: defined success much differently then than I do now. But

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Speaker 2: all that to say, just doing whatever I could to

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Speaker 2: keep climbing the ladder, and in addition to that, doing

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Speaker 2: everything else, raising a child, you know, having just life

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Speaker 2: like everyone else. And I was so exhausted, and by

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Speaker 2: the time I got sick, so scared and didn't know

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Speaker 2: what to do. I had really no idea what was

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Speaker 2: going to happen, other than I had done a little

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Speaker 2: bit of research about how people live well with MS,

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Speaker 2: and so much of what I found, outside of conventional

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Speaker 2: meds which I do take, is lowering stress. And I

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Speaker 2: wanted to win at that too, So I was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get rid of all stress.

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Speaker 1: We're going to win at the Low Stress Challenge here, That's.

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Speaker 2: Right, And that was my focus. And it took me

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Speaker 2: a little while to see that as I was reducing

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Speaker 2: the stressful things in my life, what I really was

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Speaker 2: doing was simplifying. I was removing things that really removed

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Speaker 2: me from my life, and that extended or started, I

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Speaker 2: guess with different food. I was experimenting with like what

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Speaker 2: made me feel really good, and that's changed over the years,

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Speaker 2: of course, but clutter, debt, job stress, like from every

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Speaker 2: different direction. As long as I could see it acknowledge it,

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Speaker 2: I could simplify it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and the good news you've been pretty stable then

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Speaker 1: for the last few years.

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Speaker 2: Is that correct? My neurologist often says, it's like your

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Speaker 2: MS is in suspended animation and I haven't had a

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Speaker 2: relapse or anything change on like MRI brain scans since

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Speaker 2: two thousand and seven.

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Speaker 1: Wonderful. So well, that is a long time from now.

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Speaker 1: I was right in the past, I mean, is it

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Speaker 1: is a really long time. My oldest child was born

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven and we're shipping them off

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Speaker 1: to college, so it's it's very, very wonderful. What are

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Speaker 1: the things you write about related to sort of reducing

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Speaker 1: stress and monitoring your energy? I mean, people who are

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Speaker 1: dealing with chronic health conditions may have to approach this

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Speaker 1: from a different perspective than lots of other people. And

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Speaker 1: you've had a fascinating metaphor in your book, which I

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Speaker 1: think you've said came from elsewhere, but about spoons that

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Speaker 1: you only have so many spoons. Can you explain this

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Speaker 1: a little bit more right?

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Speaker 2: It's called the spoon theory. And the person who kind

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Speaker 2: of identified this I always mispronounced her last name, which

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Speaker 2: I feel terrible about, but I believe her name is

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Speaker 2: Christine Miserindino. I might have actually said it right that time. Great,

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Speaker 2: but she was explaining to a friend how their energy

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Speaker 2: was different. And we always measure things like time and

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Speaker 2: money pretty easily, but we don't measure our energy. We

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Speaker 2: just spend it until we're completely spent and then hope

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Speaker 2: that it comes back the next day. And for some

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Speaker 2: people that works great for a while, but generally I

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Speaker 2: find chronic illness are not. That's hard to maintain that

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Speaker 2: like go do it all at all costs for a

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Speaker 2: very long time. And so with the spoon theory, you

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Speaker 2: kind of assign units of energy to each spoon, And

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Speaker 2: so you might have ten spoons for the day, and

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Speaker 2: getting breakfast ready and the kids off to school takes

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Speaker 2: two spoons, but on a day that you may be

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Speaker 2: low of energy, it might take four spoons. And so

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Speaker 2: it's just a way of minding how you are exerting

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Speaker 2: yourself during the day and maybe saving some for later.

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Speaker 2: Or saving some for you or not completely running out

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Speaker 2: every day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well it's a good thing to think about

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Speaker 1: in general, I mean managing energy and what you said,

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Speaker 1: like for a lot of people, having a good night's

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Speaker 1: sleep does in fact mostly charge you back up. I

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Speaker 1: mean I think about like plugging an iPad in overnight

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Speaker 1: and in the morning it is in fact charge and

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Speaker 1: you know that's great. But obviously if you're not completely

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Speaker 1: charging it, then you know you're not dealing with a

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Speaker 1: full load.

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Speaker 2: I guess that's it, right, right, Or if you have

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Speaker 2: other circumstances that where you naturally start out with lower energy.

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Speaker 2: You were asking kind of what I write about, and

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Speaker 2: on my site, I write about simplifying your life, anything

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Speaker 2: from becoming debt free to clutter free to cleaning out

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Speaker 2: your closet, things like that. At least that's what I

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Speaker 2: started writing about. And then the more that I talk

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Speaker 2: to people who were working on it and saw how

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Speaker 2: it was different from person to person is when I

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Speaker 2: really started thinking about different approaches, like moving more slowly,

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Speaker 2: being gentle, being good to yourself, conserving that energy, and

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Speaker 2: maybe not making the end goal the primary focus.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we're going to talk a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about what it means to be gentle. In just a minute,

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Speaker 1: we're going to take one quick ad break. Well, I

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Speaker 1: am back with Courtney Carver, who is the author of

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Speaker 1: the brand new book Gentle, which is about how to rest, more,

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Speaker 1: stress less live the life you actually want. So, Courtney,

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Speaker 1: what does it mean to be gentle? I mean you

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Speaker 1: talk in this book a lot about gentle you. What

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Speaker 1: is this state of gentle you?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, the gentle you or the gentle me, I

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Speaker 2: think is who we are inherently. I think it's the

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Speaker 2: inside voice that we can connect with once we stop

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Speaker 2: being crazy busy all the time, once we start really

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Speaker 2: paying attention to how we feel and what we want

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Speaker 2: instead of listening to all of those outside voices and

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Speaker 2: kind of bowing to that external pressure that we all

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Speaker 2: face from time to time. So really checking in. And

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Speaker 2: I mean we spread this advice to each other all

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Speaker 2: the time, like, oh, be gentle with yourself, but how

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Speaker 2: often do we turn that on ourselves? And to take

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Speaker 2: it a step further, Once you learn how to connect

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Speaker 2: with the gentle you, you can start making decisions in

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Speaker 2: advance of having to be gentle, so that the steps

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Speaker 2: that you're taking are more gentle and feel better.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what would be an example of that, Like a

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Speaker 1: decision you might make an advance in order to be

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Speaker 1: more gentle on yourself.

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Speaker 2: Sure, like if I put it around decluttering, for instance,

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Speaker 2: which is something that I talk about a lot, is

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Speaker 2: I think people get really overwhelmed with making decisions about decluttering,

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Speaker 2: like what should I donate, what should I sell? What

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Speaker 2: should I throw away? What should I recycle? And those

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Speaker 2: decisions get to be so big that they often stop

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Speaker 2: us before we do anything, And so coming up with

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Speaker 2: a gentler approach makes a lot of sense. For instance,

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Speaker 2: instead of donating anything or making any of those decisions,

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Speaker 2: just hide it all, like, put it all in a box,

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Speaker 2: get it out of sight, and give yourself a minute.

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Speaker 2: See what it's like to live without all that extra stuff,

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Speaker 2: and then see if you even remember what when in

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Speaker 2: the boxes. In my experience, it's it doesn't happen very often,

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Speaker 2: and then it's so much easier to let go because

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Speaker 2: you're not dealing with that stress of the emotional connection

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Speaker 2: that you have from seeing things every single day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Well, I wonder if you have any daily

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Speaker 1: routines so I know our listeners always love to hear

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Speaker 1: about people's morning routines or any other sort of daily

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Speaker 1: rituals they have in their life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm pretty routined, actually, and especially in the morning.

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Speaker 2: I go to bed early, and I wake up pretty

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Speaker 2: early around usually around five five point thirty, and I

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Speaker 2: like to drink a lot of water first thing in

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Speaker 2: the morning, and then I write three pages of morning

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Speaker 2: pages Julia Cameron, and then from there it depends. Today.

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Speaker 2: For instance, I went to the gym. I have a

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Speaker 2: walking pad under my desk where I work, but sometimes

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Speaker 2: in the morning, if it's dark and cold out and

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Speaker 2: I don't want to go outside, I'll do a little

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Speaker 2: walk on the walking pad. And I also generally talk

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Speaker 2: to either or both my sister and my daughter in

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Speaker 2: the morning, so we have a really fun, just catch

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Speaker 2: up conversation. And it's just a great way to start

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Speaker 2: the day feeling really connected to people who I love,

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Speaker 2: and also having moved my thoughts off my brain and

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Speaker 2: moved my body a little bit. That's kind of the

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Speaker 2: beginning of my day.

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Speaker 1: Wonderful. And in the book Gentle you talk about like

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Speaker 1: if people want to build a morning routine, the problem

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Speaker 1: is often we're like Okay, Well, I'm going to start by,

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Speaker 1: you know, running six miles every day, getting up an

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Speaker 1: hour and a half earlier that I normally do. And

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Speaker 1: that seems to be setting ourselves up for failure? Can

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Speaker 1: you talk about it perhaps slightly more sustainable approach?

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Speaker 2: Sure? So I started my morning routine when I shortly

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Speaker 2: after I was diagnosed with MS, when my daughter was

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Speaker 2: young and at home. She's still young, but you know,

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Speaker 2: like child, and I had a full time job working

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Speaker 2: for someone else, so my mornings were very limited, and

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Speaker 2: my morning routine started at five minutes. So I spent

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Speaker 2: five minutes stretching out on my yoga mat. And of

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Speaker 2: course it wasn't this like big yoga practice for five minutes. However,

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Speaker 2: it was five minutes of me getting out of bed

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Speaker 2: going to my yoga mat. And then a week later

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Speaker 2: I added five minutes of meditation, and then the week

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Speaker 2: after that five minutes of journaling. So I had this

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Speaker 2: fifteen minute routine after three weeks. And from there, and

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Speaker 2: this is where I often lose people. I added one

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Speaker 2: minute to each activity each week, only one minute. So

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Speaker 2: that's a three month and it's total, which sounds like nothing,

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Speaker 2: but I mean today I still have a morning routine

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Speaker 2: that I practice, even though it's not yoga meditate right.

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Speaker 2: Things are in different order. I bring new things in

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Speaker 2: depending on the season and how I feel. But I

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Speaker 2: have that framework, and I really believe it's because I

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Speaker 2: finally said, Okay, I am not the kind of person

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Speaker 2: hour or whatever it is. It has to be by

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Speaker 2: the minute. And that helped.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and you get there eventually, like in three

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Speaker 1: minute chunks. You will eventually get to a longer period

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Speaker 1: of time, sure, and probably sustainably, Whereas if you start

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Speaker 1: with way more than you can take on at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: you will just not get there no matter. That's how

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Speaker 1: I did get there in six months than not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all my habit changes were like, okay, now we

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Speaker 2: have to go to the gym for an hour a

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Speaker 2: day or do the five miles of walking right away.

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Speaker 2: And it never lasted. And it was always this constant

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Speaker 2: like start a new habit and then it would fall off,

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Speaker 2: and then start something and then it would fall off.

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Speaker 2: And eventually all of that, like not being able to

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Speaker 2: hold on to it. I started to kind of look

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Speaker 2: at well, before I looked at changing how I've changed.

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Speaker 2: I beat myself up a lot, like, why aren't you

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Speaker 2: the most disciplined person that can do this? What's wrong

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Speaker 2: with you?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it turns out not to be very productive

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Speaker 1: to do that.

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Speaker 2: That's true.

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Speaker 1: But let's talk about something that people have found incredibly useful,

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Speaker 1: your project three thirty three. So if somebody was hunting

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Speaker 1: around online, there's a good chance if they came across you,

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Speaker 1: they would come across this because I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people have found this fashion challenge very inspiring. So

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Speaker 1: maybe you can talk a little bit about what that is.

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Speaker 2: Sure, Well, in the beginning of my decluttering days, I

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Speaker 2: didn't count closet things because I loved to shop for

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Speaker 2: my closet and I believed at the time that shopping

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Speaker 2: reduced stress for me. It felt good to go and

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Speaker 2: buy something new. And what I wasn't considering is all

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Speaker 2: the stress that came later with credit card debt and

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Speaker 2: having too much stuff. And so I decided to finally

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Speaker 2: take a good look at my closet. I knew that

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Speaker 2: my slow and steady approach wasn't really going to work

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Speaker 2: in this case, and I created a challenge where for

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Speaker 2: three months I would dress with thirty three items or less,

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Speaker 2: including clothing, jewelry, accessories, and shoes. And just to put

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Speaker 2: things in perspective, I wouldn't doubt that I had thirty

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Speaker 2: three pair of shoes when I started this, So it

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Speaker 2: was a big change for me. And I thought I

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Speaker 2: would only do it for three months, and I mean,

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Speaker 2: here we are fifteen years later and I'm still doing it.

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Speaker 2: So thirty three items every three months, and it's just

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Speaker 2: a really nice way to eliminate decision fatigue. Choose the

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Speaker 2: items that you want and need for that time period

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Speaker 2: and then forget about the rest. It sounds sometimes to

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Speaker 2: some people like that won't be enough. To others it

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Speaker 2: sounds like way too much. So if you just have

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Speaker 2: to kind of see for yourself, there's no real magic

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Speaker 2: to the number thirty three, So your number might be

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Speaker 2: thirty five or twenty five, but just play around with

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Speaker 2: it and see. And for people who often tell me

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Speaker 2: they could never get to thirty five, I just remind

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Speaker 2: them that it's a three month challenge, so you can

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Speaker 2: do it and just hide the rest of the stuff

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Speaker 2: for three months, and if you hate it along the

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Speaker 2: way or it's causing more stress, bring the stuff back.

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Speaker 2: But for me, it's reduced a lot of stress, spending

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Speaker 2: and really energy that I was devoting towards something that

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Speaker 2: I don't really care about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and the upside of it being three months,

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Speaker 1: I mean you can then plan seasonally, right, so it's

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Speaker 1: you know, you've got a lot of sweaters in that

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Speaker 1: thirty three items, whereas in the summer, and I presume

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Speaker 1: there are fewer sweaters in the thirty three items, And

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Speaker 1: you can also have some new excitement about your wardrobe

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Speaker 1: every three months. Then, because I assume you're switching a

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Speaker 1: lot of things.

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Speaker 2: Out, well, you could, and some people do. I generally

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Speaker 2: tend not to switch a ton out, like obviously to

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Speaker 2: your point, I bring in more sweaters in the winter,

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Speaker 2: and I probably have more dresses in the summer. But

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Speaker 2: I would say like between fall and winter, I'm maybe

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Speaker 2: switching out five or six items and saying from like

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Speaker 2: spring to summer, so it's not a big shift. I

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Speaker 2: don't have thirty three different items for each season. But

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Speaker 2: I think you learn so much just after the first

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Speaker 2: three months about what you really enjoy, because chances are

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Speaker 2: a lot of people listening to this are already doing this.

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Speaker 2: But they still have all the other stuff in their closet,

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Speaker 2: but they're wearing their favorite things every day. But now

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Speaker 2: you don't have to look at that other stuff and

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Speaker 2: feel what I felt, which was stress for spending too

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Speaker 2: much seeing items that had tags still hanging, wondering what

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Speaker 2: I was thinking, or keeping things that people had given

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Speaker 2: me that I didn't like. So I'm much happier with

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Speaker 2: a teeny tiny wardrobe now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, what at this point would it take to

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Speaker 1: get you to buy something new? I mean, at what

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Speaker 1: point do you add something new into the rotation?

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Speaker 2: Ah? Well, if I needed something, like if something was

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Speaker 2: worn out or I spilled something on something, and I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to I'm not really suffering through here.

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Speaker 2: If I need to buy something new, I will, but

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Speaker 2: I generally don't want to, and oftentimes I'll just replace

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Speaker 2: something that I already have because I have found it

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Speaker 2: so freeing to not really care that much about new things.

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Speaker 2: I gave a lot of time and energy and money

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Speaker 2: to that for a big portion of my life. And

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Speaker 2: also to see that people don't really notice that was

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Speaker 2: great because then I was like, if they don't notice

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Speaker 2: this what I'm wearing, what else don't they notice in

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Speaker 2: my life, you know, I became much more free to

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Speaker 2: make decisions without worrying about Oh I wonder how this

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Speaker 2: person's going to think about this exactly.

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Speaker 1: Well, we'll talk a little bit more about worrying when

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Speaker 1: we come back from our next break. Well, I am

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Speaker 1: back with Courtney Carver. She is the author of the

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Speaker 1: brand new book Gentle, which is about how to rest, more,

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Speaker 1: stress less live the life you actually want. We've been

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Speaker 1: talking about her project three thirty three Minimalist Wardrobe Challenge.

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Speaker 1: But one of the topics you cover in Gentle is

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Speaker 1: worrying less. And for people who worry a lot, sometimes

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Speaker 1: that feels a little bit like, well, now I have

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Speaker 1: one more thing to worry about, which is that I'm

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Speaker 1: supposed to be worrying less. So I wonder if there

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Speaker 1: are some practical tips you have for reducing the worry

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Speaker 1: load people who are prone to that.

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Speaker 2: Of course, I think that worrying can I mean, everybody

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Speaker 2: knows how much it can weigh us down, and of

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Speaker 2: course there will always be some worries for us. However,

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Speaker 2: I think that there are steps we can take to

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Speaker 2: not spin the worry around and get lost in the worry.

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Speaker 2: Things that work well for me are to write down

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Speaker 2: my worries. When I see them on paper, sometimes they

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Speaker 2: don't seem as real, and I also can see what

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Speaker 2: is within my control and what really isn't. Like if

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Speaker 2: there's something I can do to be proactive here and

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Speaker 2: shut the worry down, I want to do it. But

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Speaker 2: if there isn't, which is normally the case, then to

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Speaker 2: have to see it on paper helps. And I know

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Speaker 2: some people who don't enjoy writing will take like audio

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Speaker 2: notes and just speak their worry because otherwise, when it's

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Speaker 2: all living up in our head, it just goes around

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Speaker 2: and around and around, and it gets worse and worse,

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Speaker 2: and then we can't sleep and then it feels even

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Speaker 2: more worrisome. So for sure, I think writing it down

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Speaker 2: is a big help. And then to really reflect on

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Speaker 2: past worries and what's happening in our lives. Most of

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Speaker 2: the things that happen to us or in our lives

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Speaker 2: aren't the things we were worried about, which again very

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Speaker 2: freeing to be able to say, okay, maybe this is

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Speaker 2: a stretch. I don't have to worry about this. And

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Speaker 2: then probably the simplest thing to do is to distract

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Speaker 2: yourself to break yourself out of that worry loop. So

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Speaker 2: whether it's listening to a podcast, putting on one of

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Speaker 2: your favorite movies, anything to distract yourself from that line

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Speaker 2: of thinking can help.

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Speaker 1: Awesome awesome, Well, Courtney, what is something you have done

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Speaker 1: recently to take a day from great to awesome?

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Speaker 2: Woo? I think what I do almost every day now

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Speaker 2: to take a day from great to awesome is I

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Speaker 2: romanticize the things that are already happening in my life

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Speaker 2: and turn them into simple pleasures. For instance, having a

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Speaker 2: cup of coffee. I have a coffee every day, at

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Speaker 2: least one, and it used to just be that thing

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Speaker 2: that you had to get the fuel, But now it's

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Speaker 2: a whole thing, Like I really take great joy and

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Speaker 2: preparing it and having that first sip and noticing how

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Speaker 2: it smells, and maybe talking to my sister as I mentioned,

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Speaker 2: and she's having a coffee as well, So making it

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Speaker 2: really fun and happy. The little things that are already

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Speaker 2: happening every day really helps me elevate.

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Speaker 1: A day wonderful. And what are you looking forward to

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Speaker 1: right now?

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Speaker 2: What am I looking forward to? That's such a good question.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think right now work wise, I'm looking

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Speaker 2: forward to bringing Gentle to the world, and maybe by

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Speaker 2: the time it's airs it will already be out. But

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Speaker 2: writing a book, as you know, takes a long time

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Speaker 2: from thinking about it to writing it to actually having

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Speaker 2: it ready for people to read. So I'm really looking

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Speaker 2: forward to people reading that.

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Speaker 1: Awesome Well, Courtney, where can people find you?

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Speaker 2: They can find me at beMore with less dot com

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Speaker 2: or on Instagram at be more with Less.

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Speaker 1: Awesome Well, Courtney, thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Thank you to everyone who has been listening. If you

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Speaker 1: have feedback on this or any other episode of Before Breakfast,

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Speaker 1: you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

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Speaker 1: In the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and

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Speaker 1: here's to making the most of our time. Thanks for

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Speaker 1: listening to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback,

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Speaker 1: you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.

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Speaker 1: Before Breakfast is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts

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Speaker 1: from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.