1 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to It could happen here, a show about things 2 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: falling apart and how to maybe put them back together 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: a little bit better than they were before. I am 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: Robert Evans, and with me this week is I guess 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: I'm very excited about Chris Begley, author of the Next Apocalypse, 6 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: The Art and Science of Survival. Chris, Welcome to the show. 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: Thank you now, Chris. Before we get into the meat 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 1: of our discussion, I have to talk about what you 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: do for a living, because for years and years it 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: was my job to go around the world I talked 11 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: to people and pretty much every continent about their different 12 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 1: interesting jobs. So I've I've talked interviewed everybody from like 13 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: Bravo workers in Nevada to Iraqi counter terrorism special forces 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: in Iraq. And you have probably the coolest job title 15 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: if anybody I've met. You're an underwater archaeologist. How did 16 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: you um? How did you? I mean? Was that was 17 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: it just kind of like were you kind of laser 18 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: focused on that goal or was it more you were 19 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: interested in archaeology and you loved diving, and so the 20 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: two just kind of made sense together. Yeah. Well, I 21 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: started out as ah, what I now called a terrestrial archaeologists, 22 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 1: you know, working on the land as most people do, 23 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: and worked for years in Central America. Honduras was my focus, 24 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: as you saw in the book, but other other places 25 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: uh nearby as well, and really it was about I 26 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: would say, I don't know, twelve thirteen, fourteen years ago. 27 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: I wanted to just branch out a little bit from that. 28 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: And one of the things that that all archaeologists have 29 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: seen is that, you know, there are certain things that 30 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: really just aren't as explored as other things, and one 31 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: was all of the archaeological resources underwater. I mean, we 32 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: hear about underwater archaeology or maritime archaeology in the Mediterranean, right, 33 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: you know them, and shipwrecks and all that, but there 34 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 1: are big chunks of the world where we've done very 35 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: little to see what's out there, you know. And one 36 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: other interesting thing about that is there are many different 37 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 1: things you could look at underwater, but often we look 38 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,720 Speaker 1: at shipwrecks, and shipwrecks are different from regular archaeological sites 39 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: because you know, shipwreck is a moment in time that 40 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: all happened in in one instance, and so when we're 41 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: looking at that kind of archaeological site, we see this 42 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: snapshot that we don't see when we look at a 43 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: place that was occupied over hundreds of years. So you know, 44 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: so yeah, so that wasn't my focus, but it became, uh, 45 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: sort of somewhere I wanted to go as I learn 46 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: more about it. And one of the things I find 47 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 1: really interesting that the basic thrust of your book is 48 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: that the way in which we think about civilizations falling 49 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 1: or collapsing or how however you you know, the ways 50 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: in which folks tend to discuss and we're talking about 51 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: the Maya or the romans um is very different from 52 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: what archaeologists who tend to study these cultures, how they 53 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: tend to perceive of of what you might more accurately 54 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: call a decline or or you know, a decentralization or whatever. 55 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: I think there's a number of terms that we could use. 56 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: But these ideas that like, you have these civilizations and 57 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: then they suddenly fall apart um are not really based 58 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: in rigorous historical analysis. Usually. Um, there's some cases as 59 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: as you go out into the book, um, and I'm 60 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: I'm I'm interested in that because you're kind of coming 61 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: at from a very rigorous historical standpoint in this book. Um, 62 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff that we talked about on 63 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: on this show in a more contemporary sense. And I'm 64 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: kind of wondering how the idea to write this sort 65 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: of came together because you you started it before the 66 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen pandemic. Obviously that had an impact on the book. 67 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: It's it's it's all over there. Yeah yeah, Um, well, 68 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: I've I was. One of the things that I do 69 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: is teach the wilderness survival courses and um, and I 70 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: don't do that as frequently as some people that that 71 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: sort of dedicate themselves to that do. But but but 72 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: I do it fairly frequently. And UM. It became obvious 73 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: to me over time that people were taking these courses 74 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: not just to learn how to deal with being lost 75 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: out in the wilderness, which is sort of was my vision. 76 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: What do you do if you unexpectedly have to spend 77 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: a night out in the woods or or two or three. Um, 78 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: they were really thinking about what do I do when 79 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: things fall apart? How do I take care of myself? 80 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: How do I take care of my family using these 81 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: skills that you could use in a situation where things 82 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: had fallen apart, And that sort of oriented me towards 83 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: the fact that you know, people were worrying about the future. 84 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: I mean I could see it. I could see it 85 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: in my students at university. I could see it, you know, 86 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: the people's faces at the supermarket. You know, there was 87 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:09,039 Speaker 1: something going on there that was um uh, there was 88 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: concerning people, and a lot of it had to do 89 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 1: with climate change, and that I think was was the 90 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 1: focus initially for me writing this um because what I 91 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: saw was you know, sort of the prepper community and 92 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 1: survivalist community looking at things that really seemed to be 93 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: short term and didn't at all focus on what we 94 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: really saw historically. So I think that my um, my 95 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: initial motive to motivation to write this was really just 96 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: seeing this concern that was that was growing among people 97 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: about what the future is going to look like. And 98 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: then of course COVID Hitn't that that that really brought 99 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: all this to the to the forefront. And are there 100 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: any specific ways in your mind that you you can 101 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: you kind of think on how COVID all heard what 102 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: you were what you were writing, or how you conceived 103 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: of what you were writing. Like once you you know, 104 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: you you have this kind of vision that's inspired by 105 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: the things that you're seeing and hearing, particularly in these 106 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: wilderness survival courses. And then as you get started, we 107 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: have this horrible, horrible plague hit and a number of 108 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: of of things start to happen very quickly. How does 109 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: that kind of alter the trajectory of what you're writing? Yeah, 110 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: I guess the you know, the there were some just 111 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:30,559 Speaker 1: sort of practical logistical things obviously, right, Uh, some things 112 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: that I intended to do, or ways that I had 113 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: hoped to interact with folks in the course of interviewing 114 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: people for the book or writing it, you know, wasn't 115 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: going to be possible. But in terms of thinking about 116 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: how things happened, the big thing for me was, um, 117 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: how it became politicized so quickly. You know, that was 118 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: you know in them you know you know, well, now 119 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: you see all of the memes you know, um talking 120 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: about the zombie movies where half the population doesn't believe 121 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: their zombies or something. You know, that was never really 122 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: on the radar, at least not on my radar before, 123 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: and so now, um, um, you know it is because clearly, 124 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: not only do these things happen, and then you have 125 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: a group of people that are dealing with it. You 126 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: have obviously the dynamics within the group, which which of 127 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: course we knew, but to see it play out in 128 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: this way, in this sort of dramatic way, that really 129 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: altered the course of history. I mean, the pandemic could 130 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: have turned out, uh, you know, differently, but it didn't. 131 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: And part of the reason that didn't was because of 132 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: the way folks reacted to it. And I'm wondering because 133 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: a part a chunk of your career, in a big 134 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: chunk of this book is kind of looking at in 135 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 1: places like Honduras where these these civilizations entered decline, and 136 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: in some cases it was very sharp, like within a 137 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: fairly short period of time, nine of the population leaves 138 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: or you know, uh is deceased. UM. And you you 139 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: see like the crumbling of a lot of these governmental 140 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: institutions and whatnot that had had organized life for a while. 141 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: You see the pretty significant migrations. UM. Is there any 142 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: ways in which kind of the last two years as 143 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: an archaeologist has changed or informed how you were thinking 144 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: about um, these places that you've been you've been studying, 145 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: in these moments in history that you've been studying for 146 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 1: so long. Yeah, in some ways, it brings some of 147 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: it into a little sharper focus. For instance, you know, 148 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: one of the things that that archaeologists had long talked 149 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: about was it during these declines or these collapses, that 150 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: it's uneven. It's not equal for everybody. It's not equal 151 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: over space and time, and certainly depending on your position 152 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: in society. UM, there's different ways in which it it 153 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: plays out for you, UM, you know, and that's something 154 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: that we see. We see it from um, you know, 155 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: access to vaccines to um well, I mean even things 156 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: like you know, if we think about folks that are unvaccinated. 157 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: Now there's a you know, a chunk of those people 158 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 1: that are doing it for a sort of political reasons 159 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: or other ideological reason, but there's also a big, uh, 160 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: a big group of those folks that are doing it 161 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: because history shows that they should be wary of anything 162 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: that uh society tries to do to them. And so, 163 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: you know, you have these these things playing out for 164 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: different ways for um, you know, people from different regions 165 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: of the country or political orientations or race or ethnicity 166 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: or um, you know, a whole variety of things. And 167 00:09:54,720 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: so seeing how uneven it was the pandemic, UH makes 168 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: me think that you know, it certainly was that way. 169 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: Then the other thing that we see when we look 170 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 1: archaeologically is that it's these big structures or systems that collapse. 171 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: That really is the collapse and the things that cause 172 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: it initially, whether it's I don't know, deforestation or drought 173 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: or warfare or even a natural disaster of some sort 174 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: um that really it's the way people respond to those 175 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 1: and the way these UH systems deal with those changes 176 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: that really creates the problems that you see later on. 177 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: And we can see that now. For instance, one of 178 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: the things that we're talking a lot now about is 179 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:53,560 Speaker 1: supply chain issues, right, and this is a result of COVID, 180 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: But it's not a direct result. I mean, it's not 181 00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: because the cruise on the ships are at the ports 182 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: or truck drivers have UH are sick. It's because of 183 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 1: the ways in which all of this disrupted things. And 184 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: especially when we get these really efficient but inflexible systems, 185 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: like a lot of our shipping system was um, these 186 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: disruptions result in really big changes. So you know, you 187 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: have these huge ships that can only dock a few ports. 188 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: Once that gets backed up, you can't really shift and adjust, 189 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: and so that's I think for me, just a lot 190 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: of it is seeing it play out, where we see 191 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,439 Speaker 1: the fact that we have something that sets it all off, 192 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:50,719 Speaker 1: but then we have the response of the system or 193 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: the structure that really creates the day to day impact. 194 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: I suspect a big part of kind of why we 195 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: conceive popularly of quote unquote collapses in the past is 196 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: based on, as you talk about extensively in your book, 197 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 1: the way in which we look at it kind of 198 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: in fiction, and in fiction it's nearly always like the 199 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,079 Speaker 1: societal equivalent of a bullet in the head, right, the 200 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: zombie plague is out, and then a couple of days 201 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: everything's fallen apart. And the point that you make in 202 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: this is that it's probably I mean, this isn't exactly 203 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: a phrase, but it's probably better to look at it 204 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: kind of like it's like a tumor or something, where 205 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 1: the things are set in motion that are going to 206 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 1: lead to things falling apart much much, um, at a 207 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: point before a lot of people probably would have noticed it. 208 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: You know, the problem can be too far gone, um 209 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: before it's really obvious. Um. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think 210 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: that's that's a good point, and that's the that's really 211 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: something that you know, even with COVID, it shows that right. Um, 212 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 1: you know, the problems are not only the existence or 213 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: the appearance of this virus, but first of all, how 214 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: did it appear? And that has to do with, um, 215 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,599 Speaker 1: you know, decreasing habitat for wild animals and the proximity 216 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,319 Speaker 1: of human populations to animals. And then we have increased 217 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 1: sort of communication and travel, which you know is not 218 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: a bad thing obviously, but it is going to change 219 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: the way in which these things spread. But then we 220 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: have the way that we divide ourselves up into nation states, 221 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: and the way in which we have you know, economic 222 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: systems that are working in certain ways. So you know, 223 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:49,719 Speaker 1: the vaccine gets here but not there, and and and 224 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 1: so forth. Um. But yeah, that's you know that I 225 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: think is at the heart of it. You have these 226 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: things that have been set in place, you of these 227 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: parameters in which you're going to have to react, and 228 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: they really set um the stage for what's going to happen. 229 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: You know, you have it's like looking backwards four or 230 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: five moves in chest to see how did we get 231 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: in this situation. It's not just because of that last move, 232 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: it's because of the last ten. Yeah. And one of 233 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: the things you bring up that I like is that 234 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: if you're looking for kind of a historical example of 235 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: a collapse that that most mirrors the way we tend 236 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:31,280 Speaker 1: to look at it in fiction, it would probably be 237 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: what happened to the indigenous population of particularly like North 238 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: America um after the arrival of colonizers, which was by 239 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: a lot of accounts, like nine of the population dead 240 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: within a fairly short span of time, primarily from disease. 241 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: This this really rapid and cataclysmic um um shock. But also, 242 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: at the same time, as much as it does seem 243 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: to mirror some of our you know, kind of fictional 244 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: depictions of of viral outbreaks or other's sort of of 245 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: of societal calamities, um, the ways in which people survived 246 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: don't really in any meaningful way mirror are our kind 247 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: of popular fictional depiction of like who makes it out 248 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: of that sort of a situation, you know, the the 249 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: strapping military veteran with a rifle and a stockpile of 250 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: food or whatever. You know. Yeah, yeah, that that, you know, 251 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: I would say that certainly having these skills to keep 252 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: yourself alive is important, and it is true that if 253 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: you don't make it through the first thirty days, you're 254 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: not gonna make it through the next thirty years. But um, yeah, 255 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 1: the way people survive outside of a few days perhaps 256 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: when they're dealing with some of these uh, what we 257 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: would think of a survival situations is this a community. 258 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: I mean we see that with uh, you know, when 259 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: we look at the Native American history in North America. 260 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: You know, even as populations and entire groups were being 261 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: decimated by these diseases, sometimes a village in a single 262 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: winner from a wave or waves of disease. Even in 263 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: the in the face of that, they reconstituted themselves as communities, 264 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: sometimes um, multi ethnic or multicultural communities. I mean, there 265 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: was a whole variety of ways in which people regrouped. 266 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: And I think that that, you know, that was the 267 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: message and you know, part of the uh this image 268 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: of you know, grabbing your bugout bag and heading out 269 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: to the hills is um it just doesn't work, you know. 270 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: And and the the stockpiling you know as well. Um, 271 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: And so yeah, when we look archaeologically, you know, we 272 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: always see communities. Yeah, that's something we really try to 273 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: encourage people to this show where obviously some amount of 274 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: disaster preparation is is not just helpful, but is I 275 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: think kind of morally necessary if it's at all financially 276 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: feasible for you. You know it is you are it 277 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: is absolutely the right thing to do to try to 278 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: have two three weeks of of relatively storable food, some water, um, 279 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: you know, some other emergency supplies, but kind of beyond that, 280 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: as you said that first, like thirty days, if you 281 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: actually want not just to live, but to have you know, 282 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 1: life have any kind of meaning, um, you have to 283 00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: be thinking in a community oriented situation. Yeah, I mean, 284 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: because ultimately, you know, what's the difference between two weeks 285 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: or two months worth of food? You know it's gonna 286 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: be gone and you know you have to come back. 287 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: You know. One of the things in researching for this 288 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: for this book, one of the things I looked at 289 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: was the history of how we made a living, uh 290 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: and the history of agriculture. And one of the things 291 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: that you know that that I found was that the 292 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: last time that humans lived where a significant portion of 293 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: the population was hunters and gatherers, that is, not farmers, 294 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: there was like one of the current population, you know, 295 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: less than five million people in the world. So even 296 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: a catastrophic disaster that you know, reduced us to of 297 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: you knowent of current population, We're still going to have 298 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: more people in the world than ever lived without agriculture. 299 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:44,239 Speaker 1: And so we're gonna have to uh recreate some of 300 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: these systems. And you know, agriculture by and large is 301 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 1: going to be a community based system. It's I mean, 302 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: you can garden on your own, but but the way 303 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: that it needs to work is is going to be 304 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: a collective. Yeah, and I think, yeah, this is we 305 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: talk a lot about. I actually live with a couple 306 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: of wilderness survival instructors and we have about an acre 307 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: of land and we do a decent amount of of 308 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: of you know gardening, you know, animal husbandry and that 309 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,639 Speaker 1: sort of thing, and it it is. Um I've I've 310 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: spent a lot of my life on farm, so I've 311 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: kind of always had an appreciation for how much work 312 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: it is. And one of the things we try to 313 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: talk about on this show regularly is the value of 314 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: even just having a garden of things like guerrilla gardening. 315 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: Not because I'm not one of those people who thinks 316 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 1: that like, oh, we need to replace industrial agriculture, with 317 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: like individuals tending small gardens. That's not going to work. 318 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,479 Speaker 1: But because the more you kind of interface directly with 319 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: the concept of growing food and with working with other 320 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: people in order to do that, the more prepared you 321 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: are for any number of things that could go wrong, 322 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: Like even if those things don't involve a crunch in 323 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: the food supply lines, the connections you make with people 324 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 1: doing that sort of work will be more valuable than 325 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,400 Speaker 1: an extra two months of stockpiles. You know, when you're 326 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: in your food buckets or whatever, you're Alex Jones dried 327 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: food buckets. Well, that's that's absolutely right. And you know, 328 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 1: one of the things that occurred to me looking into 329 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: the past at some of these uh, you know, collapses 330 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 1: or declines that had happened in the past, was that 331 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: a huge percent of the population um um was engaged 332 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 1: directly in agriculture. And you know here in the well 333 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: in the industrialized world, is typically less than five percent 334 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,439 Speaker 1: less than that even in the United States. Most people 335 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 1: like me don't, uh don't engage in it. And you know, 336 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: I know something about gardening, perhaps like everybody else, but 337 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: I'm not a farmer. I don't really have that collected 338 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: wisdom and if I had to do that, um, you 339 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: know probably it's like a lot of other things. When 340 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: everything is easy, it's not so bad when you know 341 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,959 Speaker 1: when it goes bad, it really helps to know what 342 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: you're doing. Uh. And of course everything goes bad sooner 343 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: or later, and so um, you know, that's that kind 344 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: of things very important, you know. And I think also 345 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: there could certainly local systems and some flexible scale would 346 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: be really important, you know. So I'm also, like you, 347 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: a proponent of of this sort of thing. You know, 348 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: if we can get everybody to participate in ways that 349 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: we aren't now, that will give us some flexibility. What 350 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: if what if we do have supply chain problems, Well, 351 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: we have a number of people in the community that 352 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: are already doing some of this stuff that could maybe 353 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: be expanded or get us through this period. So yeah, yeah, 354 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,120 Speaker 1: I mean, even if you're not like dealing with everyone's 355 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: caloric needs, it could be as simple as because of 356 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: where you're located. You know, when when the oranges and 357 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 1: other kind of fruits aren't able to come in from 358 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: a supply line thing, there's a shortage of vitamin C, 359 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: and then knowing how to make teata pine needles or whatever, 360 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: or what kind of plants have a lot of vitamins. See, 361 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: you know, even though you're not you're not focused on 362 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: meeting everyone's you know, entire caloric needs through small scale farming, 363 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: but you can deal with them a nutrient deficiency or 364 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: something because you understand your environment a little bit better. Yeah, 365 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: and you know, probably quality of life issues too. I mean, 366 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: you know, for uh, you know, kids and u you know, 367 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: there's there's lots of there's lots of ways you can 368 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: survive that are pretty miserable. So you wanna you want 369 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: to try to uh direct it towards those that are desirable. 370 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 1: And I think part of that is having this flexibility, 371 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: having this knowledge, having a lot of people involved in things. 372 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things I talked about 373 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 1: in in my book or ideas of you know, diversity 374 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: and inclusion, which we talk about in certain ways now 375 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: and often I think unfortunately it's talked about, is if 376 00:22:55,000 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: it's done to benefit the people that are marginalizing, left 377 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: out only, And while it is partly that it benefits everybody, 378 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: of course, I mean, anyone in a business knows, anybody 379 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: in a university knows the benefits of of diversity. In 380 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: the same way anybody that's trying to do something understands 381 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: the benefit of a diverse range of experiences. You know. 382 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: That's why we make these multidisciplinary teams that go out 383 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 1: and do things. Uh, you know, it's so that you 384 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: have this this wide variety that can help you keep going. Yeah. 385 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 1: And one of the things that I really found fascinating 386 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: in your book and that that kind of made me 387 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: feel a little bit um bad as I You know, 388 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: I've I've spent a lot of time thinking about the 389 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,879 Speaker 1: what happened, what was done to and what also just 390 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: kind of happened as a result of the way diseases 391 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: spread when when colonizers reached North America. I had never 392 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: really devoted that much thought to the actual actions that 393 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: in different indigenous groups hook consciously to prevent to protect 394 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: themselves from the spread of diseases. You mentioned the Cherokee 395 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: in particular, Um in your book. Could you talk a 396 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: little bit more about that, because that's something as soon 397 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: as I read it, I marked that page because I'm like, 398 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: I need to look up what the studies he's referencing, 399 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: because I I don't know anything about this. Yeah, that Um, 400 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of that stems from the research 401 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: of of some other archaeologists and they you know what, 402 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,959 Speaker 1: You're exactly right. We don't think about that. We're not 403 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: taught about it that way. You know, we sort of 404 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: have this this contradictory and sort of u uh doubly 405 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: problematic way of talking about this. First, for a long 406 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: time we denied sort of the how traumatic and how 407 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 1: much of a genocide it was when Europeans arrived um 408 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: And then after denying that, we sort of say, well, 409 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: Native Americans are gone and no longer relevant, so we 410 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 1: can cease to talk about them. Of course, that's not true. 411 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,719 Speaker 1: And one of the things that we see when we 412 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: look more in detail at the histories, or we listen 413 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: to the oral histories, or we look at the archaeology, 414 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: is that there are a number of things that that 415 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: that people did and do to um uh uh to 416 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 1: create the outcomes that they want. And that was no 417 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: different for the Native American groups, you know, I mean, 418 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: they had ways of dealing with disease, and some of 419 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: them will be will be able to understand it via 420 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: our sort of our system, right, isolating people, cleanliness, minimizing 421 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: contact expect especially with sort of problematic groups like the 422 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: Colonizer's um you know. But in other ways, there are 423 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 1: things that are gonna be unfamiliar to us and we're 424 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: not gonna see the effectiveness or the value in it. 425 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: But one of the things that that all of these 426 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: things did, that these groups were doing was created or 427 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 1: maintained um group identity and cohesion and allowed the perseverance 428 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: of of community. And so there are um you know. 429 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,719 Speaker 1: It's it's easy to think about people as sort of 430 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: passive victims of something, especially when it serves your purpose 431 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: to to think about it in these ways, and we 432 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: just see that it's it's not the case. Yeah, there 433 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: was a remarkable moment in the book, and I think 434 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 1: it was from when you were in Honduras where you 435 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: you talk about your finding pottery shirts and they have 436 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 1: these specific kind of markings on them from I don't 437 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: like a thousand years ago or so, and you also 438 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: know a local woman who's a potter and she's putting 439 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: the same markings on and you ask her why and 440 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: her answer is like, well, because the pottery shirts that 441 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 1: we find from our ancestors have those on them. And 442 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: my initial thought was like, oh, what a shame that 443 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: she doesn't know what those originally meant. But then I 444 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 1: thought like, well, but is that any different from like 445 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,359 Speaker 1: all of the different things that that I do, because 446 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: their traditions, because like they're things that like people a 447 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: thousand years ago in in in my line did like, no, 448 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: it's not like it's it's just what people do, and 449 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: it is a continuation, and it's a very there's um, 450 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: that's a that's that's survival, you know, that's that's conscious survival. Yeah, 451 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: you know, and in that case, of course, whatever it 452 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: meant initially, it now means that to her, right, So 453 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: there's the meaning, you know, um. And so it's it's interesting, 454 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: you know. One of the things you know, I from 455 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 1: and I live in Kentucky. And one of the things, 456 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: especially when people come to say Appalachians, they're looking for 457 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: sort of authentic Appalachian Kentucky you know, um, and they 458 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: already have an idea what that is. And if you 459 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: don't see it, because that's not really what people do, 460 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: then the response is never, oh my idea is about 461 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,239 Speaker 1: what is authentic? Might be erroneous. It's I wonder why 462 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,520 Speaker 1: I didn't see authentic Appalachians, you know, it's like what 463 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 1: you did. But you know, there's gonna be more hip 464 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: hop and punk groups than there are bluegrass groups because 465 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: you know, these are twenty year old kids. That's you know, 466 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: they're doing this as much as this other stuff, and uh, 467 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: you know more probably, And so that that is something, uh, 468 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: that that I think of often as an archaeologist. You know, 469 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: my focus is in the past. But if I'm going 470 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: to understand things, of course you also have to understand 471 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: and how are people thinking about in the present, and 472 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: how am I thinking about it in the present, because 473 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: you know, everything, all the stories I tell about the 474 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: past are coming out of or coming out of my 475 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: experience in the present too, and it's hard to uh, 476 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: it's hard to separate those and that really the best 477 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: we can do is try to, um, you know, reflect 478 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: on that and see how is it that I might 479 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: be limiting my understanding because of my particular experience. And 480 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: one of the things I really like about your book 481 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: that I also found fascinating, So it's I you know, 482 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: I I for a while did um conflict journalism and 483 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: before when when that was just an ambition of mine, 484 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: Before I started to do it, I would see the 485 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: articles that were being written by all these war correspondence, 486 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: and I would just be in awe of like how 487 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: did they get that story? How did they get that access? 488 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: How did they must have put so much work in? 489 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: And then when I actually got there, I realized like, 490 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: oh no, they met they made a contact with the 491 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 1: local who was good at it, and that person showed 492 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 1: them around and made all these connections, and like, actually, 493 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: none of this work happens without the local fixers. And 494 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: you make the point that in archaeology you're not generally 495 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: discovering things, like even when you're finding shipwrecks, it's because 496 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: these sailors who lived nearby were like, well, yeah, a 497 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: bunch of shipwrecks every there, Like yeah, this is where 498 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 1: you're gonna go find them. You know, It's always the 499 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: way it is, you know there um um. In the 500 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: example you're talking about, I was part of this project 501 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: in Forney in Greece, which you know, made the news 502 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 1: because we found so many shipwrecks there something ultimately like 503 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: fifty shipwrecks around this island, um, and almost all of 504 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: them were shown to us by local folks. Uh. You 505 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: know that sponge divers or people that were fishers, you know, 506 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: people that were out on the water all the time. 507 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: And the few that we found by ourselves, I'm sure 508 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: people knew about them, we just stumbled on them before 509 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: somebody had a chance to show us. It's the same 510 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 1: way in in the Honduras. Would we would be walking 511 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,840 Speaker 1: through the rainforest and you know, maybe we've been walking 512 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: for a week, so we're way out in the middle 513 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: of this place. People were constantly telling me, the guys 514 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,239 Speaker 1: that I was with, would say, Okay, if we go 515 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: up this creek, you know, for about six hours and 516 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: we go over here, here's what we'd find. Here's what 517 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: we'd find over here. Here's what we find over here. 518 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: They knew where everything was. Um. And that's you know, 519 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: one of the things that you uh uh uh that 520 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: that you learn is you know how reliant you are 521 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: on people that live in a place. I mean, they 522 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: just know it. Yeah, there's no Um, when you get 523 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: right down to it, is as obsessed as we are 524 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: kind of in in the Western Cannon with the idea 525 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: of lost cities. Um, that's not really a thing that 526 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 1: tends to happen. Um. Yeah, no, no, no, it's not. 527 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: And and in fact, most of the archaeological sites that 528 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,040 Speaker 1: people didn't know about. It was just because they were 529 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: so small and ephemeral that no one really paid attention anything. Yeah, 530 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: there's no lost city. They're always known for somebody. Well, Chris, 531 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: I think that's that's most of what I wanted to 532 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 1: get into in this conversation. I'm wondering before we kind 533 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: of close out, because you are both the author of 534 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 1: this book, The Next Apocalypse, which is I think a 535 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: fascinating way of looking at the idea of things falling 536 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 1: apart and a wilderness survival instructor. If you're going to 537 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: suggest people, you know, a practical kit bag to prepare 538 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 1: for short and kind of long term problems, what are 539 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: you what are you putting in your bag? Well, you know, 540 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: there's the two main things, uh, that you're always gonna 541 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 1: want is is a knife because that allows you to 542 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:51,960 Speaker 1: make a lot of other things. And a way to 543 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: start fire, you know, and we've all seen in the 544 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: movies roving sticks together and you know, friction methods and 545 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: that works, and you can do that, but it is 546 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: incredibly difficult to do in the butt, you know, and 547 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: for most of us that don't do it all the time. Uh, 548 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: You're just not gonna be able to do it when 549 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 1: it's forty degrees in raining and you really need a fire. 550 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: You know, you'll be able to do it when it's 551 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: a hundred degrees and dry, you know, uh, because everything 552 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: is about to catch on fire anyway. But uh, you 553 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: know so um and what would what would that look like? Well, uh, 554 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: you need something that will catch on fire pretty quickly. 555 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: And the thing I always takes cotton balls. You know, 556 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: if you take cotton balls and a disposable lighter or 557 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: one of those uh fire starter sticks, it will make sparks. 558 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: Um that those cotton balls will catch fire instantly. And 559 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: if you take one and you coat half of it 560 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: with petroleum jelly, then not only will catch fire, it 561 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: will burn you know for you know, a minute or so, 562 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: long enough to catch other stuff on fire. So you know, 563 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: making are and having some sort of cutting tool are 564 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: the very basic things. But um, you know, the beyond that, 565 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: I would say, uh, you know, clothing or some sort 566 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: of shelter is is the other thing. You know, exposure 567 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 1: to elements will kill you quicker than anything, and so 568 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: having some way to uh to protect yourself and that's 569 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: usually gonna be you know, first line of defense is 570 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: going to be your clothes. And one of the things 571 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: that that you'll know anybody that that deals with sort 572 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: of survival situations is that most people that really get 573 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,880 Speaker 1: in trouble with things like hypothermia, you know, it's not 574 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 1: when it's thirty degrees below and they're out doing something. 575 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 1: It's when it's fifty degrees and sunny and they're out 576 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: in a T shirt during the day, and then at 577 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: night it drops to thirty degrees and you know they're 578 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 1: stuck out somewhere with without proper clothing. That's that is 579 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: when things get really dangerous. So you know, I would say, 580 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: you know, if you can have some way to start fire, 581 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: some sort of knife, and appropriate clothes for spending the 582 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:18,280 Speaker 1: night out, you know, then then uh, and you're probably 583 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: in pretty good shape for most situations. Well, Chris, thank 584 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: you so much for talking with with us today. Chris Begley, 585 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,560 Speaker 1: underwater archaeologist, author of the Next Apocalypse, The Art of 586 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: Science and Survival. Chris, is there anything you'd like else 587 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: you'd like to say or kind of get into before 588 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: we close out for the day. No, just thank you 589 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: very much for for reading the book and for reaching 590 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: out to talk with me, because I think that, you know, 591 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: especially now as we go into sort of an uncertain future. 592 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: I mean, future is always uncertain, I suppose, but um 593 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: as you know, we're really recognizing some of these challenges. 594 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: You know, really am hoping that this sort of um uh, 595 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: community based idea becomes the way we think about things. Uh. 596 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't mean it's easy or that we're 597 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,959 Speaker 1: gonna like it. It doesn't mean that that's what I want. 598 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean, tell you the truth, I would love it 599 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: if it was just me out in the woods with 600 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,319 Speaker 1: my family, you know, I can do that. It's much 601 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: harder to be part of a community and make things 602 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: work for a big group of people. But that's just 603 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 1: the way it's going to be. Yeah, And that's that's 604 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: ultimately the way in which you have a lot more 605 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: real security because I think, um uh, I think people. 606 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 1: I don't know, the world seems so complex and messy 607 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: that it's easy to imagine that that safety comes from 608 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: getting away from the world. But historically that's just not 609 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: how it works. Now, the world finds you. You know, 610 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: it's the best. Being part of a group is always best, 611 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: and your your little group can never defend against the 612 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,279 Speaker 1: big group. I mean, if we want to put it 613 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 1: in those terms, you know, you can't just hoard everything 614 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: and uh it just doesn't work. Might work for a 615 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,359 Speaker 1: little while, but yeah, so that you know that for me, 616 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: that's the message I'm hoping, Yeah, people take from it. Well, 617 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, Chris. For those of you listening 618 00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 1: at home again, please do check out The Next Apocalypse 619 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: The Art and Science of Survival by Chris Begley. That's 620 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: going to do it for us all today. Chris, Thank 621 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: you again, and have a wonderful day here you too. 622 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 1: Thank you. It Could Happen Here is a production of 623 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 624 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,359 Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 625 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 626 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,760 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 627 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,399 Speaker 1: for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone 628 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.