1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My name 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's not Saturday, 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: but we are going to be airing a vault episode 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: today to help us get through some holiday outages. Uh 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: so this is going to be the episode that originally aired. 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: What date was this, Rob, This would have been uh four, 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: six early pandemic days. I think this was one where 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: so this is an interview with the physicists Brian Green, 9 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: who had written a great book called Until the End 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: of Time. But I think this is one where my 11 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: my internet failed and I had to duck out at 12 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: the last minute before the interview. But you you bravely 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: soldiered on. Robert. Yeah, that's right, we had we had 14 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: we both prepared some questions to ask him, so I 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: ended up asking questions on your behalf. And I can't 16 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: remember if we went and went back and re recorded 17 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: you so that you were asking your own questions, or 18 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: we just talked about doing that. I don't remember how 19 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 1: it came together, as is the case for a lot 20 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: of you. Um that month is kind of a blur, 21 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: but we managed to pull it off and it was 22 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: a fun chat. I think I might have rerecorded my questions. 23 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but if if you hear me sounding 24 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: weird in this episode, that's why. Yeah. I think one 25 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: day we'll just put together a super cut of us 26 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: doing uh uh, you know, introduction chats with our guests 27 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: during the pandemic, where we talked through our technical problems 28 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: and what the headphones we have and where we're recording. 29 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: Um is a but probably a lot of amusing behind 30 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: the scenes stuff there that would be massively entertaining to 31 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: all the people. Yeah, yeah, yeah, alright, Well, anyway, we 32 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:47,119 Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed this episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 33 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 34 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 35 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 36 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: today we're bringing you an interview with the physicist and 37 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 1: author Brian Green. This one was a real treat, except 38 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 1: we did have a major audio snag that did mean 39 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: that I was not able to be on the call 40 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: during this interview. So if you hear any kind of 41 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: like uh, weird sound shenanigans going on in the moments 42 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 1: my questions come in, will be real with you. It's 43 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: because I had to go back and record them later. 44 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: But Robert, you you did me a great honor and 45 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: asking my questions for me during the interview. So thank 46 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: you for doing that. Uh, Robert, what was it like 47 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: speaking to Brian Green? I have to ask, Uh, it 48 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 1: was it was pretty great. I had I had interviewed 49 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 1: him once before at the World Science Festival. The World 50 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: Science Festival for anyone who who doesn't know it doesn't remember, 51 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: is uh is this awesome gathering of of minds that 52 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: happens every year in New York. But then it is 53 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: then all these different panel conversations about these mind blowing 54 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: topics they go out on the internet, um over you know, 55 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: the months to follow. And so I had I had 56 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: talked to him briefly about black holes, kind of a rushed, 57 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: you know, busy kind of interview, and that was a 58 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: couple of years ago. But this was this was a 59 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: lot more relaxed, Like I was talking from my closet. 60 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 1: He was talking from you know, I think a study 61 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: or or or some similar room in his own home. 62 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: And so it felt felt a bit more laid back, 63 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: uh this time around, though it was of course, you know, disappointing. 64 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: We weren't able to have you in there as well, Joe. 65 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: But more to the point, Brian is just, uh, you know, 66 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: a brilliant mind. He's you know, one of the best 67 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: known proponents, if not the best known proponent living proponent 68 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: of superstring theory. UH. The co founder of the World 69 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: Science Foundation, UH, Professor of Mathematics and Physics, Department of 70 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: Mathematics at Columbia University in New York City, and he's 71 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: the author of several books UM The Elegant Universe in 72 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: UM The Fabric of the Cosmos in two thousand four, 73 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: Acharus at the Edge of Time in two thousand eight, 74 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: which is a children's book, UH that that you know, 75 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: breaks down black holes for young readers. UH, there's the 76 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: Hidden Reality, Parallel Universes and the Deep Laws of the 77 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: Cosmos from eleven, and then his latest book, UH one 78 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: of the main reasons we uh, we decided to chat 79 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: with in this episode until the end of time mind 80 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: matter in our search for meaning in an evolving universe. 81 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed this book. One thing I was surprised 82 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: by is how many subjects he gets into. This book 83 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: is about the idea of of finitude and impermanence and 84 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: he so he of course explores physics, you know, the 85 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: history of the universe and the future fade of the universe, uh, 86 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: in a physical sense, but he also spends a lot 87 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: of time talking about like the social sciences and the 88 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: humanities and our obsession with living forever or or with 89 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: impermanence and loss and uh. And I found it a 90 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: really interesting and actually kind of beautiful book. Yeah I 91 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: I'm going to stress this again during the interview to itself. 92 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: But if you are hesitant about picking up this book 93 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: because you're thinking, oh, it's it's a book by physicist, 94 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: it's gonna be it's just gonna be a bunch of 95 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 1: physics stuff. It's gonna be about black holes. It's gonna 96 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,599 Speaker 1: be hard to relate. No, no, no, this book is 97 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: is very relatable. It's you know, what's somewhere in the 98 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: neighborhood of three hundred and something pages, but but covers 99 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: a lot of ground and a lot of relatable ground, 100 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: getting into you know, at times, how the how, how 101 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 1: the how, how our brains contemplate the cosmos, where religion 102 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: comes from, uh, you know, the the role of scientific 103 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: investigation in our sort of you know, quest to deal 104 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 1: with the undeniable reality of mortality in our lives. Yeah. 105 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 1: He even gets into realms like like philosophy of mind 106 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: and like you know, the cognitive science of religion, which 107 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: we talked about on the show a good bit and 108 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: and uh and mythology and all that. And I would 109 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 1: say I was really impressed. He does a really good 110 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: synthesis of complex topics that are outside his field. And um, 111 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: I thought it was just a really thoroughly informative and entertaining, 112 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: uh journey to go on. Yeah. And of course, if 113 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: if anyone out there is if you are familiar with 114 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,919 Speaker 1: the World Science Festival, then you you get a you 115 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: have a taste of the sort of interest Brian has 116 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: because you see the sort of topics that are covered 117 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: at World Science Festival. Uh, the diverse array of individuals 118 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 1: who are who gathered gathered there to discuss these topics. 119 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: And I think that's reflected in this book especially, So 120 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: highly recommend the book. It is available now. I think 121 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 1: in all formats you can get a you know, kindle edition. 122 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: I think the audio book is available. Uh. So it's 123 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: a it's a great book for any time. I think 124 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: it's especially a good book for our current reality. Totally alright, Well, 125 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: without further ado, let's jump into the interview. Brian. Your 126 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: new book is Until the End of Time, which is 127 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: an incredible title because there's this literal expectation of cracking 128 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 1: open a book with a name like that written by 129 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: a noted physicist. But there's there's also the personal aspect 130 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: of that title and the religious connotations of the phrase, 131 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: you know, all of which are a major part of 132 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: the book as well. How did all of this come 133 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: together in your your writing of Until the End of Time? Well, 134 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 1: it's a book that I've been thinking about in one 135 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: form or another for maybe thirty years, slowly gestating and 136 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: really recognizing the power of having a cosmic perspective where 137 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: you see your life as we all do in the 138 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: everyday sense of human experience, but you're able to tell 139 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: a parallel story where you recognize that you are part 140 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: of this grand cosmic convolting that reaches back to the 141 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: Big Bang and goes as far as our equations can 142 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: take us into the far future. And the depth of 143 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: perspective that that can provide is I think quite gratifying, 144 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: and that really was a motivation for writing the book 145 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: so that people can see their lives within a whole 146 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: variety of stories. The reductions to count, to the physicist, 147 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: all the way to the cosmological account of the astronomer. 148 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: You eve a wonderful interconnected tapestry of these subjects. But 149 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: but I do wonder did anyone try to dissuade you 150 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: from writing a book that covers ultimately the entirety of 151 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: human history and the known universe in a single volume. No. 152 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: But the usual reaction before had written the book was 153 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: how many volumes is it going to be? Is it 154 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: ten thousand pages? You know, there was a limit to 155 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: the number of words that anybody in a single lifetime 156 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: will be willing or able to read. Those sort of 157 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: equips were quite common. But the the idea of say 158 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: a three hundred page book, an ordinary length book taking 159 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,680 Speaker 1: on cosmology, the origin of the universe, the origin of life, 160 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: the origin of mind, the meaning of consciousness, theorizing of language, 161 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 1: the telling of stories, the origin of myth, the origins 162 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:59,439 Speaker 1: of religion, how that interweaves with human culture, creative expression, 163 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: and then onto the developments from today until time, scales 164 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: that are so fantastically long that we don't even have 165 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: names for the numbers that describe the durations that we're 166 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: talking about. Yeah, it's a it's a hefty chronicle. But 167 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: being able to sit down and read it in three 168 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,199 Speaker 1: hundred pages to me with the point that you would 169 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: be able to see all of these unfoldings in a 170 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: reasonable period of time with minimal effort and to recognize 171 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,079 Speaker 1: your place within it. Yes, And I do want to 172 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: stress to our our readers, our listeners rather that it 173 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: is a very very readable book. It's just there's you know, 174 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: it contains a dense amount of information, I guess, but 175 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: it is um uh. One never feels overwhelmed by all 176 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 1: of this data. It's it's presented in a wonderfully and 177 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: at times personable way. Yes, thank you. A core theme 178 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: of this book is the concept of entropy. Entropy is 179 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: kind of the evil sorcerer driving the magic of impermanence. 180 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: And I think sometimes people get confused when they hear 181 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: about entropy as tending toward disorder. You know, it's often 182 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: defined as as the tendency of things to move into 183 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: disorder because order and disorder seem like subjective concepts depending 184 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: on human judgment and in the book. You have a 185 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: wonderful way of explaining entropy in terms of statistics. It's 186 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: a way that makes clear how it's actually an objective phenomenon, 187 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: not depending on what feels orderly to a human observer. 188 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: Can you explain this here? Yes, And the quantitative version 189 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: of entropy does rely upon and resonate quite strongly with 190 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: the qualitative version that you just described. So roughly speaking, 191 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: when we talk about entropy, we're talking about disorder. And 192 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: the second law of thermodynamics is this idea that things 193 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: tend to go from order toward disorder. That's the natural 194 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: direction in which events unfold. And when you want to 195 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: make this more precise, because you're right when you hear that, 196 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: you're like, come on, physicists talking about like order and disorder. 197 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: You know, there doesn't seem to be enough rigor in 198 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: that kind of description, But we can make it quite 199 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,559 Speaker 1: rigorous in the following sense. When things are highly ordered, 200 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: if you arrange the ingredients, you typically mess up that order. Right, 201 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: If your books are all in nice alphabetical order, someone 202 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: comes along when you're not looking and sort of rearranges 203 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: a few books. It's obvious that things have changed because 204 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 1: they're no longer in that nice orderly progression from A 205 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: to Z. So that's a situation in which there are 206 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: very few rearrangements that would leave the system unchanged. And 207 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: that counting of the number of rearrangements is what we 208 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: mean by low disorder. On the contrary, if those books, 209 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: if they're all just kind of, you know, thrown in 210 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: a heap on your desk, someone comes along and they 211 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: rearrange the disordered mess you'll never even know that they 212 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: were there, because that rearrange mint and a whole host 213 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: of other rearrangements leave the messing looking heap of books 214 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: looking like a messy heap of books. So in that case, 215 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: there are many rearrangements that leave the system looking pretty 216 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: much unchanged. And so what we physicists do We simply count. 217 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,960 Speaker 1: It's accounting exercise. Give us a system, will count how 218 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 1: many rearrangements of the ingredients leave it looking the same unchanged, 219 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: versus how many leave it looking changed. And a disordered 220 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: system high entropy means there are many rearrangements that have 221 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 1: no impact. An ordered system low entropy means are very 222 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,719 Speaker 1: few rearrangements that leave it looking the same. That's how 223 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: we make it precise. Why is it that seemingly orderly 224 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 1: structures like stars, planets, and life forms are not violations 225 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: of the universe's tendency toward disorder. Yeah, that's a big 226 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: that's a big puzzle, and it's certainly an issue that 227 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: I spend some time on in the book because it's 228 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: one of the critical questions to ask and one of 229 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: the important questions to answer. And here's how the answer goes. 230 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: This law of thermodynamics, the second law that says that 231 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: things go from order to disorder, says that, in an 232 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: overall sense, if you look at the entirety of a 233 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,480 Speaker 1: physical system, or let's just be grandiose, the entirety of 234 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: the universe, over time, the entirety will go from order 235 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: toward disorder. But that does not prevent little pockets of 236 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:32,679 Speaker 1: order from forming here and there, so long as in 237 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: the process of those orderly formations coming together, they release 238 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: enough heat and waste and disorder to the environment to 239 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: compensate for the order that happens in that local environment. 240 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: And stars are the perfect example. You've got this gas 241 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: is floating in space. Gravity has the capacity to pull 242 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: things together, and as the gas comes together, it ultimately 243 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: ign Night's nuclear processes because it becomes so hot and 244 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 1: dense through the gravitational pull driving it into an ever 245 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: smaller region of space. And that actually is an orderly configuration. 246 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 1: But in the process of that orderly configuration forming, heat 247 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: and light is given off by the birth of the star, 248 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: and that heat and light spreads to the wider environment, 249 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: injecting disorder into the surroundings, and that disorder in the 250 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: surroundings compensates and more than compensates for the order that's 251 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: formed in the star itself. And I call this the 252 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: entropic two step. What it is, it's kind of a dance. Right, 253 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: You've got order happening here, right, you've got disorder happening here. 254 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 1: And if they choreographed their dance in the right way, 255 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: then the overall entropy goes up, even though you can 256 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: have orderly structures form in the process. Some of my 257 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: favorite passages in the book concern it's core templation of impermanence. Specifically, 258 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: when you get into into discussions of consciousness and the 259 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: human experience and religion, you write that you're you remain 260 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: partial to Stephen J. Gould's take that quote, all religion 261 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: began with an awareness of death. Can you expound on this, Well, 262 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: religion is this wondrous, really human construct that allows us 263 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: to cope with some of the most difficult of challenges 264 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: that we face. In the most difficult challenge of all 265 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 1: is the realization that we are impermanent, the realization that 266 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: we will all die, and early on religion came up 267 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: with a number of very powerful ways of dealing with 268 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: that singular realization. I mean, think about it. There are 269 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: species on the planet that react to death, elephants more, 270 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: and they're dead. But I don't think that their elephants 271 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: that are walking around saying, wow, I'm going to die 272 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: one day, what's the point of being here? And then 273 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: what's it all about? I don't think that they take 274 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: it in in that way, while we humans do. And 275 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: so religion came up with or provided us a number 276 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: of ways of dealing with that. I mean, you know, 277 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: if you don't view death as the end, if you 278 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: view death as a stepping stone to another existence, another life, 279 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: well that certainly is is something that is deeply consoling. 280 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: Right if you think of death as one of a 281 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: cycle of births and death and rebirths, So that again 282 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 1: it's just part of this ongoing cyclical process that ultimately 283 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: will take it to some promised state of being, some 284 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: state of calm, nirvana, whatever you want to call it. 285 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: That's another powerful way of dealing with this realization. So 286 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: within almost every religion is some means of coping with death. 287 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: And that's why Steve even Jay Gould described religions as 288 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 1: originating in the realization of our own mortality. And to me, 289 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: it's a very powerful tool that some rely upon in 290 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: order to cope with a devastating recognition of mortality. And 291 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: do you see that as part of the the human 292 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: condition reflected in the pursuit of science as well? I do. 293 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: In a different way. We scientists are are driven to 294 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: understand where we came from, how we develop, how we evolve, 295 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 1: how the universe will evolve, or driven to find the 296 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: deep laws that undergird existence. And look, different scientists will 297 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: do this for different reasons, but I can speak personally. 298 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: I am driven at a fundamental level by the recognition 299 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: of the finite time that I have here, and I 300 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: deeply want to know as much as I can about 301 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: how I find myself in this predicament at all, and 302 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: I want to understand, and it's a beautiful story when 303 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: you understand it. How the Big Bank gave rise to galaxy, stars, planets, 304 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: and ultimately life. I deeply want to understand how life 305 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: emerge and how consciousness flourishes within certain of those living systems. 306 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: I mean, we are conscious beings and that's where our 307 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: footprint in reality has it's it's it's impact right without consciousness, 308 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 1: as as a number of great thinkers across the ages 309 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: have said, you've got nothing, and so deeply understanding the 310 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 1: sequence of events that led us to this place where 311 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 1: we can look out and wonder and ask questions and 312 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: and experience each other and experience beauty. To me in 313 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: the brief flash of time that I have here, I 314 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: want to understand that as fully as possible. So, you know, 315 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: there's this wonderful sociology social anthropologist Ernest Becker. I've had 316 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,439 Speaker 1: a great impact on me back when I read his work, 317 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: and I guess it was the seventies and eighties, a 318 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: long time ago now. And you know he said in 319 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 1: a book called The Denial of Death that all of 320 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: human activity can be traced to trying to cope with 321 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: this realization that we have these minds that can soar 322 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 1: to the edge of the universe, and yet after a 323 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: century we are put into the ground and we're turned 324 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: into dust. That is a stunning collision of perspective, and 325 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: we struggle to make sense of it. All right, we 326 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: need to take a quick break, but we will be 327 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 1: right back with more thank and we're back in chapter seven, 328 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: Brains and Belief. You follow the evolution of religious thought 329 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: and you compare it to scientific investigation, specifically mathematics and physics. 330 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: Could you speak to the basic similarities as you see them, 331 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: between Eastern religious cosmologies and science, as well as where 332 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: the often popularized similarities in Well, that's right. So a 333 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: lot of people are fond of citing parallels between insights 334 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: that emerged from Eastern religions, Eastern philosophies, and things that 335 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: have emerged in science, and in fact, in the book 336 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: I described a little bit of how you know, My 337 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:28,360 Speaker 1: older brother is Hari Krishna dev devotee and has been 338 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 1: for decades, and certainly in the early days of his 339 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: involvement in that practice, when we would talk about work 340 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,719 Speaker 1: I was doing in cosmology or physics, it was not 341 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: infrequent for him to say to me how we already 342 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: know all that you know? It's in this or that 343 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: Vedic text, which I found both curious and frustrating at 344 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: the same time. And when I followed some of those 345 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: through I understood where he was coming from. There was 346 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: a resident of language and perspective that you do find 347 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: between some of the things that we seek and some 348 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: of the things that have been sought after by thinkers 349 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 1: throughout the ages. We asked similar questions. In science, we 350 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: answer those questions with mathematics and with experiment and with observation. 351 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: And that's the way in which we feel that we're 352 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: making progress. And we can write down an equation that 353 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: can predict things about the universe that happened, you know, 354 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 1: billions of years ago, and then we look out in 355 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: the night sky to see what we think should be 356 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: the remnant of those processes from thirteen billion years ago. 357 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: And when we see those things out in the night 358 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: sky today, we say, wow. We we we seem to 359 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: understand something may not be the full truth, but we're 360 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: heading towards truth. And and the issue with Eastern philosophy 361 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: and Eastern religions is much of it emerges from introspection, 362 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: from an inner journey to understand the human reaction to 363 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: the universe, and so the barometer of of success and 364 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: truth is quite different. The barometer of truth is, you know, 365 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: does it feel right? Does it seem that this gives 366 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: me a better sense of how I fit within the 367 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: wider world. Those are important questions, but they're different questions 368 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: from the ones that we answer or at least try 369 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: to answer in science. And I will stress right here 370 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 1: and this is vitally. I think both are crucial to 371 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: having a full experience of the world. If you stop 372 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,959 Speaker 1: with understanding the objective world through the language of mathematics 373 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: and observation and experiment, that's all that you do. You've 374 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: cut off the dominant thing that makes us who we are, 375 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: which is our inner world, our inner experience. So I 376 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: think you really need to blend the insights from all 377 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: of these perspectives in order to have the fullest experience 378 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: of reality. In one of the early chapters of the book, 379 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 1: you mentioned as in the side that physicists to use 380 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: not just what they know, not just proven theories and 381 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 1: mathematical reasoning to drive their research focus, but also what 382 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: you call a hard to describe intuitive mathematical sensibility. Now, 383 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: I know you say it's hard to describe, but can 384 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: you talk anymore about this kind of physicist's intuition. Yeah, 385 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,840 Speaker 1: I thought I was getting myself off the hook by 386 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: objecting the hard to explain there, but but I'll do 387 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: my best. When you're trained in the language of mathematics, 388 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: you acquire a sense of which mathematical sentences are good. 389 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: Ones are sharp, ones are effective, ones are economical, ones 390 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: are beautiful, ones are elegant ones. It's like in English, 391 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: like we all are trained in a natural language. I mean, 392 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: you and I both speak English, maybe speak other languages too, 393 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: but in English we can recognize those sentences that are 394 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 1: are special. Right. We can read Shakespeare here and we 395 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 1: recognize what a turn of phrase that was in king Lear. 396 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: Or we can read Whitman and say, wow, what a 397 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: collection of words to put together in that line of 398 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: that poem and say leaves of grass or whatever it 399 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,399 Speaker 1: is that moves us. Similarly, we can do that as 400 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,160 Speaker 1: as scientists, as as mathematicians. And what we have found, 401 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: and this is the danger this is the danger zone. 402 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: What we found over the years is that those mathematical 403 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: sentences that have the cleanest, most economical, widest explanatory reach, 404 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: with the fewest number of assumptions, the fewest number of 405 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: instructions other sentences that you need to combine them with 406 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,359 Speaker 1: to make sense of them. They seem to be the 407 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 1: mathematical sentences that describe reality. And why I say that's 408 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: dangerous is because it could easily be that our mathematical 409 00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 1: esthetic sensibility changes or time, so that those sentences and 410 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: math that have proven relevant to the world are the 411 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: ones that strike us as beautiful and elegant. It could 412 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 1: well be this feedback loop, and so you have to 413 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,479 Speaker 1: be very careful using this approach in trying to go 414 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: forward and understanding things. But when you're doing your cutting 415 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: into research at the frontier of understanding, and you don't 416 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: have experiment and you don't have observation yet to guide you, 417 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: that mathematical aesthetic sense is what we often do make 418 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: use of in order to go forward. So you've at 419 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: times described yourself as a reductionist. In common usage, I 420 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: think this label is often a pejorative. It's um It's 421 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: what you call somebody when you mean that they're ignoring 422 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: important qualities, nuances, or context in the course of explaining something. 423 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: Obviously you don't mean it in this pejorative sense. So 424 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: what is the scientific project of reductionism and how does 425 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 1: it in fluence the way you see the world. Well, 426 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 1: the project is quite straightforward. It's attempting to reduce reductionism, 427 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: trying to reduce all physical phenomenon, matter, and the processes 428 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: that happen in the world, reduce them to their most 429 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: fundamental ingredients, the most fundamental constituents, and the fundamental laws 430 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,719 Speaker 1: that govern how those constituents interact with each other, how 431 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,959 Speaker 1: they come together into larger agglomerations that ultimately yield structures 432 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: like stars, desks, planets, microphones, computer screens, and everything else 433 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 1: that we experience in the world around us. Now, you're right, 434 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: the phrase reductionists is often used as a pejorative and 435 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,240 Speaker 1: the reason for that is partly maybe one of our 436 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: own making. Sometimes we scientists, when we speak of reductionism, 437 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 1: we end the conversation with the reductionist perspective, as if 438 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: that's all you ever need to know to understand the 439 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 1: deep qualities of reality. What we really mean by that, 440 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: or again, maybe I should speak for myself. People have 441 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: different views. What I mean by that is the reductionist 442 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: account the ingredients, and the laws provides the rock bottom 443 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: substrate on which reality is then built. And I fully 444 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: do believe that everything, people to planets are nothing but 445 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: collections of particles, large collections governed by physical law. But 446 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: I also saying, exactly the same breath, with the same 447 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: level of intensity, that you need to invoke other layers 448 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: of description that are more appropriate to the kinds of 449 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: questions that may interest you at other layers of reality. 450 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: So the chemist comes along and says, yeah, you physicists, 451 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 1: you talk about those fundamental particles, but I want to 452 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 1: talk about things that the level of adams and molecules. Fantastic. 453 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: The biologists comes along and says, look, your physicists, your 454 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: chemists assure, but I want to talk about things with 455 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: the level of cells and organ ells and the prophecies 456 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: that are underlying life. And yes, that's the right language 457 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: and the right level of description to use. And the 458 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 1: psychologist comes along, and the neuroscientist comes along and says, 459 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: I want to understand things at the level of human experience, 460 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: like what's happening in the brain. And so those are 461 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: the ingredients, and that's the language that those scientists and 462 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: those thinkers will use, and then the philosophers and the 463 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: humanists come along and they say, great, you physicists and scientists, 464 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: you talk about the underlying structure. But I want to 465 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: talk about things like human reflection and love and grief 466 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: and achievement and aspiration and and all those things that 467 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: occur up here at the human level. And you should 468 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: use that language, and you should describe reality in those terms. 469 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: It wouldn't make any sense to talk about the experience 470 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: of grief at the level of atoms, molecules, particles, and 471 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: Maxwell's equations of electro magnetism, right, You wouldn't gain the 472 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: kind of insight that you want. But the point that 473 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: I make in the book is that these stories are 474 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: not distinct in the sense that the physicists reductions account 475 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: threads through all of those stories, and it can give 476 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: you surprising insights even up here at the human level. 477 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: I would never want to use it as a substitute 478 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: for Shakespeare, or for Rembrandt, or for Picasso, the or Beethoven, 479 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: the kinds of creations that deeply affect us as human beings. 480 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: I don't want to describe that in terms of molecules 481 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: and atoms, but in principle you could, and that in 482 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: principle can give you some insights into particular the issue 483 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: of free will and so so there are connections between 484 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: these stories. But if you leave out the upper levels 485 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,719 Speaker 1: and you focus solely on the reductions account, you deserve 486 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: to use it as a pejorative because you're missing out 487 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: on so many other qualities that are better described in 488 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: different languages. Let's talk about entropy in the long term 489 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: fate of the universe. What is the fate ultimately of 490 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: beings that can think, Well, it's a question that we 491 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: can address at least under the assumption that our current 492 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: understanding of the laws of physics and our current understanding 493 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: of the matter that makes up reality, that that is 494 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,280 Speaker 1: a good description that will continue to hold arbitrarily far 495 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: into the future. If it doesn't, then then radically different 496 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: things might happen, But we'll be shooting in the dark 497 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: with our current level of understanding to conjecture what those 498 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: alternative futures might be. So if you grant me that 499 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: that I can use my current understanding of things to 500 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: go forward, then you can show that roughly by about 501 00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: ten to the fifty or so years from now, it's 502 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 1: a big number. Right, we're now about ten to the 503 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: ten years from the Big Bang, and that difference of 504 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: forty is in the exponent so it's not forty more years, right, 505 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: it's multiplying it by tent at the forty which is 506 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,959 Speaker 1: a huge factor. So very very far in the future, 507 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 1: you can argue, as actually Freeman Dyson, great physicist, once did, 508 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: that the process of thought considered to be a process 509 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: of computation, and that's really what each individual thought is. 510 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: It's taking some inputs and it's yielding some outputs. That 511 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: physical process necessarily is an entropically increasing process. Second thermodynamics, 512 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: which means it necessarily yields waste heat, and that waste 513 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: heat needs to be admitted to the wider world. And 514 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: we do that all the time. Right. If you had 515 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: a nice infrared camera on me right now, in my head, 516 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: I'm thinking hard to answer your questions, and you'd see 517 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: the heat coming off of my head. Right. We know 518 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: that like the military infrared goggles, you know that imagery 519 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: that that you can see that heat emanating from biological source. 520 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: Now in the far future, you can argue that the 521 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 1: universe at some point will not be able to absorb 522 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: that heat, It will be kind of stuffed with as 523 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: much as it can hold, and at that point of 524 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: thinking being thinks one more thought, it will not be 525 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: able to admit the heat, so it will burn up 526 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: in the entropic waste generated by the very process of 527 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: thought itself. So that's the sense in which thought will 528 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: come to an end under the assumptions that we're making. 529 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: Thought is not something that will be able to last 530 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: into eternity. And does that does that change the way 531 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: you or or affect the way you view the you know, 532 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: our current lives. What does that make what we do 533 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: you know, pointless? Or does it make what we do 534 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: more beautiful? I know you get into this a little 535 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 1: bit in the book. I do, and in many ways 536 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: it's the main point of the whole narrative is to 537 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: address that question. Because a natural reaction certainly is, you know, 538 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: if it's all going to go away, if matter is 539 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: going to disintegrate, if everythinking being will ultimately I think 540 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: it's final thought, then what's the point of it all? 541 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: Because I think many of us, and certainly I for 542 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: a long time, even if implicitly imagine that the importance 543 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: of a life or thinking personally in my own life 544 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: is that I'd leave some kind of mark, some kind 545 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: of legacy, either through my family and my kids, or 546 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: maybe through my work or through some kind of interaction 547 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: that would continue to ripple through the unfolding of the future, 548 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: having less and less impact over time, but nevertheless still 549 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 1: having an imprint out there, even if just in some 550 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: modest implicit way. But if there's no thinking beings left 551 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: in the far future, like like, what's the point? And 552 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 1: I went through a dark period in my own life 553 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: coming into terms with this question, but ultimately had kind 554 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 1: of I don't I don't know what the right word is. 555 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: An epiphany, uh, spiritual moment. I'm not sure what the 556 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: right language is. But there was a moment when I 557 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: kind of shifted my perspective radically and quickly to the 558 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: recognition that it's actually more powerful to recognize that we 559 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 1: have this little cosmic oasis in the unfolding of the 560 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: universe in which living beings and thinking beings can exist. 561 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: It's as if the universe rises up for a brief 562 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,720 Speaker 1: moment and is able to look around and contemplate itself, 563 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: and we are the beings that allow that contemplation to 564 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: take place, and when you do that contemplation and recognize 565 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: that you are the result of quantum processes stretching back 566 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,399 Speaker 1: to the beginning, each of which that could have turned 567 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 1: out like that way instead of this yielding a world 568 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: in which we would not be here. You recognize it's 569 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: astonishing that we are here, against astounding odds, we exist. 570 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: And it's even more than that. We are these special 571 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: collections that can think and reflect, and we can we 572 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,239 Speaker 1: can do things right. We can have these conversations, we 573 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: can join into powerful coalitions that can do things that 574 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: the individual would be unable to write. We can build 575 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: the pyramids, we can we can write Beethoven's ninth cent 576 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,319 Speaker 1: And if you allow us to take credit as a 577 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: species right, we we can figure out the equations of 578 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 1: quantum mechanics, the equations of the general theory of relativity, 579 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: allowing us to figure out all these qualities of the universe. 580 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 1: And to me, that just fills me with gratitude for 581 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 1: being here at all. So, rather than sort of looking 582 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: to the future or looking to some deity to bestow 583 00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: meaning upon us, we recognize that we are empowered to 584 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,919 Speaker 1: find our own meaning. That's the only place that meaning 585 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: is going to come from and when we do come 586 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,479 Speaker 1: to terms with what matters to us in the here 587 00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: and now, it's a more powerful version of meaning because 588 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,320 Speaker 1: it's organic, it comes from ourselves. We manufacture it, for sure. 589 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: But how wonderful that we can manufacture it. How wonderful 590 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,359 Speaker 1: that the collection of particles can ask these questions and 591 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: come to answers, even if our presence in the universe 592 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: is fleeting. It's such a powerful sentiment, such a powerful 593 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: view of things. I mean, it's the one century. But 594 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: but but even like specifically to what everyone is going 595 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,080 Speaker 1: through right now, I think, yeah, for sure, I mean, 596 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: we are in an astonishing, devastating, painful, tragic era right 597 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: now that we hope will pass, of course, But I 598 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: do find solace in taking this cosmic perspective. It doesn't 599 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: take away the pain. Nothing will you lose a loved one, 600 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 1: Nothing will take away that pain. Time can sometimes heal, 601 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: but nothing can or should take away that pain. But 602 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: if at the same time, you can take a step 603 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: back and see the cosmic perspective, recognize that there is 604 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: this little piece of the cosmos that we inhabit in 605 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: both space and time, And how wondrous that is. I 606 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: think there's a degree of solace. Doesn't take away the tragedy, 607 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 1: but there's a degree of solace that that can provide, 608 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: which I think is quite powerful. All Right, we need 609 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: to take a quick break, but we will be right 610 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:34,760 Speaker 1: back with more. And we're back now. You're, of course 611 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,960 Speaker 1: the the co founder of the World Science Festival. Uh, 612 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: something that I look forward to every year. Such a 613 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: wonderful collection of great minds coming together to discuss scientific topics. Um. 614 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: But of course you had to make a very understandable 615 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 1: call to cancel the live portions of the through May 616 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,000 Speaker 1: one event this year. Can can you touch on on 617 00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: what the current or emerging plans are for for online presentations? Well, 618 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:06,520 Speaker 1: the idea is to see this as both a challenge 619 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: an opportunity for the festival to create a new kind 620 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: of program. And what really distinguished us, say thirteen years 621 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: ago when we began the live Festival. At that time 622 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: there was not as much live event focus as there 623 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: is today, and we were kind of a pioneer in 624 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: taking ideas that are normally viewed as sort of abstract 625 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: and not for general consumption, and through the clever and 626 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: powerful production techniques of Tracy Day, the other co founder 627 00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: who really cut her teeth in some of the best 628 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: broadcast television, you know, from Nightline and programs on CNN 629 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,160 Speaker 1: and things of that sort. To take those techniques and 630 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 1: to create live programming that people would totally be immersed 631 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: even if they had no background in homology or neuroscience 632 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: or astronomy or you know, personalized medicine, you know, topics 633 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:11,240 Speaker 1: across the board. So now we're changing gears and trying 634 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: to find a new way of doing digital programming that 635 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: will inject that same kind of creative focus to bring 636 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,680 Speaker 1: these intellectual ideas out to the public. And you know, 637 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: independent of the current crisis. We began this already, so 638 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: we feel like we're well equipped to do so. We 639 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:31,720 Speaker 1: had I don't know if you saw it, but last 640 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: maybe we had a special on PBS. It was our 641 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: first broadcast special. It was a live theatrical exploration of 642 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: Einstein's discovery of the general theory of relativity. And you know, 643 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: we teamed up with some of the greatest artists in 644 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: the live theatrical space, together with great performances on PBS, 645 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: to film in a manner a live presentation that would 646 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: work on a two dimensional screen and through interesting visual 647 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: and through a powerful musical score, and through taking the 648 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: ideas of general relativity and making them widely accessible, I 649 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: think we've created a very different experience of ein science discovery. 650 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 1: So that's the direction that we're head not with that 651 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,720 Speaker 1: level of production for every event that will put online, 652 00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,920 Speaker 1: for sure, but that's our thinking to inject a new 653 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 1: level of creativity into online programming dealing with scientific subjects. 654 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,560 Speaker 1: That's awesome because that's that's that's one of the things 655 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: I really love about the World Sciencestival every years that 656 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: you you know, you you bring in art, you bring 657 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: in music, and then in terms of the all these 658 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: great minds that come together to discuss it. You know, 659 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: you're bringing in you know, scientist, biologist, physicists. You know 660 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: you're bringing in occasionally philosophers or even the theologian thrown 661 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: into the mix to tackle these these you know, at 662 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,080 Speaker 1: times just staggering questions about the cosmos and the human condition. 663 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: Exactly right, Yes, that's that's the philosophy, and you know, 664 00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,719 Speaker 1: to to bring together great thinkers that don't often talk 665 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 1: to each other, and to structure the conversation in a 666 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: way that the novice can feel that they're part of 667 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: the exploration. Now you you launched a web series on 668 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:14,359 Speaker 1: March I Believe Your Daily Equation, which is available via 669 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: World Science Festival dot com but also the World Science 670 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: Festival YouTube page. Can you discuss your inspiration for this 671 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,760 Speaker 1: series and and just tell us how it's been going. Well, 672 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: it was just a lark off the top of the head. 673 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: We're having a conversation one day about you know, typically 674 00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: World Science Festival programs involve a lot of productions. It 675 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: takes a long time to create them. And I said, well, 676 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: now there's an opportunity to go to the other direction. 677 00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:43,919 Speaker 1: What if I just turned on my my webcam thing 678 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: and just each day talk about a new equation and 679 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,280 Speaker 1: we're like, yeah, sure, why not go for it? So 680 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: so that's all it is. So there's literally no production. 681 00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 1: I film it right here and each day I just 682 00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,759 Speaker 1: think about, Hey, what what equation would be kind of 683 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: and to describe to somebody who likes the ideas of 684 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 1: science but math is not really their thing, but they 685 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: might get a kick out of seeing the actual symbols 686 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 1: that are behind the scenes and gaining a quick understanding 687 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,760 Speaker 1: of what they are. So we started with equals MC squared. 688 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 1: How could you not? So I sort of explain that, 689 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: and then did a bunch of equations in relativity time 690 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 1: slowing down lengths being contracted for an object in motion. 691 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,440 Speaker 1: And then I've moved on to quantum mechanics. So I've 692 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,560 Speaker 1: been sort of doing the very basic equations of quantumic 693 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 1: acts and I find it fun. And you know, the 694 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,440 Speaker 1: audience that is sticking with me. You know, daily equation 695 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:46,320 Speaker 1: is not exactly the title that may appeal to the 696 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,160 Speaker 1: mass of public out there, but there are there are 697 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 1: people for whom that idea is a kick, And I 698 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:55,879 Speaker 1: think we're all just having a good time, and it's 699 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,839 Speaker 1: a sense of a little sense of community, a sense 700 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,359 Speaker 1: of a small group of folks who come together each 701 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:04,719 Speaker 1: day just to put the news to the side, put 702 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,399 Speaker 1: all the difficult stuff to the side, and just think 703 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: about these simple, beautiful equations that touch on things that 704 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,040 Speaker 1: transcend all of us. Yeah, that's great. We we do 705 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 1: really need content like that right now. Um On, on 706 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: the other hand, do do you feel that the world's 707 00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: current struggle with the pandemic Do you think it's it's 708 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: it's it has sharpened or is sharpening the public's appreciation 709 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: for science and the importance of science communication. Well, I'd 710 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: like to say yes, but my experience is that even 711 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,240 Speaker 1: in the face of great tragedy, when it passes, people 712 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: tend to revert to their more conventional ways of thinking 713 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 1: about things. And it is awful that we have leaders. 714 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: And this is the main thing. It's all of that 715 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: we've leaders who for the past number of years have 716 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:03,480 Speaker 1: been casting a spurs is on science, detegrating scientists and 717 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: substituting opinion for observation, fact, data, and analysis. That I 718 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,520 Speaker 1: hope will change. But the easiest way to change that, 719 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: of course, is a change of leadership, because most leaders 720 00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: of the world recognize that power that science provides us 721 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: for figuring out the right path forward on a variety 722 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: of issues that will determine our fate. And it's just 723 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 1: tragic that there are leaders who don't think that way. 724 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,840 Speaker 1: All right, Well, the book is until the end of time. 725 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: It's it's out now, and yeah, I just want to 726 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 1: just drive home just how how wonderful this book is. 727 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: We're just really thrilled to help, at least in some 728 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 1: small way, boost the signal on this one, that you know, 729 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: let our listeners know that they should they should check 730 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,120 Speaker 1: it out. It's just it's just really excellent. Thank you, Brian. 731 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for taking time out of your data to chat 732 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,040 Speaker 1: with me. This has been a pleasure. Thank you very much. 733 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: Enjoyed it all right, So there you have it. Thanks 734 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,759 Speaker 1: again to Brian Green for dropping by the show to 735 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: discuss his new book, Until the End of Time, Mind 736 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: Matter in Our Search for Meaning in Evolving Universe. It's 737 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,480 Speaker 1: it's a brand new book just came out here in 738 00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,279 Speaker 1: available I believe in pretty much all formats right now. 739 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: So if you want to listen to it, if you 740 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: want to read it, uh digitally or in a physical copy, 741 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: you should be able to get your hands on it. Yeah. 742 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,720 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed this one, and I think you will too. Yeah, 743 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:34,839 Speaker 1: and keep an eye on World Science Festival because, like 744 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,680 Speaker 1: Brian said, they're gonna be busting out some some online 745 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,440 Speaker 1: content this year. So the same sort of great discussions 746 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:43,880 Speaker 1: that they've had in previous years they're going to offer again, 747 00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,200 Speaker 1: but of course, due to our current circumstances, is going 748 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: to be in a slightly altered form. In the meantime, 749 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 1: if you would like to check out other episodes of 750 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,600 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your mind, you can find us wherever 751 00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,560 Speaker 1: you get your podcast and wherever that happens to be. 752 00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,560 Speaker 1: Just make sure that you rate your review and you 753 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: subscribe huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer 754 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 1: Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in 755 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:08,080 Speaker 1: touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 756 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, just to say hi, 757 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,640 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact. That's Stuff to Blow 758 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:23,880 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow your Mind is 759 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,600 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 760 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 1: heart Radio, this is the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 761 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,440 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.