WEBVTT - The Reckoning 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:09.480 Paper Ghosts is a production of iHeartRadio, previously on Paper Ghosts. 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:12.200 So they took to DNA and how did you feel 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:14.480 about that? Oh, it didn't bother me because I mean 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.080 I I wasn't part of it. They got to eliminate everybody. Well, 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:20.600 I think, you know, I mean, it's always easy to 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.880 tell the truth, right when you start making up stories. 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.440 It'll change over time. I mean, if you know, if 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:30.120 I told you'll lie today and you came back to 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:32.839 me five years later, you know I'm asking the same question, 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:37.559 I may not respond the same way. Right, He alone 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:42.600 perpetuated the Lonnie beer Brott sort of fantasy as a 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.800 suspect because he was no longer part of the investigation, 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:49.920 so he wasn't aware that Lonnie had been eliminated. My 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.639 name is eem William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist. Then off, 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:58.200 they're more than forty true crime books. This is season 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:12.800 three of Paper Ghosts in Plain Sight. As you have 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:18.160 heard throughout the podcast, retired ESP Master Sergeant Marty McCarthy 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.640 has been the driving force behind the accusation that Lonnie 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:26.399 beer brought, a former truck driver with a criminal background 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:30.440 from LaSalle County Illinois had something to do with Tammy 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:34.679 Ziwicki's murder. Because of that, beer Brought's name has become 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:39.080 almost synonymous with the case. Here's a guy who was 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:43.360 cleared through blood and DNA, a person law enforcement is 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:46.679 convinced had nothing to do with Tammy's murder, and yet 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:49.960 if you look online, he might as well be guilty. 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:54.760 By the fall of twenty twenty two, I'd confirmed through 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:58.920 multiple sources that Lonnie beer Brought was no longer a 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:04.880 suspect and Tammy's murder. Law enforcement, however, did not do 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:09.000 much to publicly clear Lonnie's name, or at the very 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.520 least reach out to Marty to tell him to back off. 0:02:16.680 --> 0:02:21.520 Hello Marty, Hello Marty, how you doing. It's Matthew. So 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:25.320 I called Marty myself to discuss the facts that his 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:29.920 prime suspect, Lonnie beer Brought, was not Tammy's killer, and 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:32.639 that much of the ribbing he'd done against the ESP 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:39.160 and FBI was for nothing. Yeah, man, good good. I 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:42.240 just wanted to follow up with you and talk about 0:02:42.280 --> 0:02:48.480 a few things. Lonnie beer Brought was completely and clearly 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:53.160 ruled out by blood and DNA. Okay, And they first 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:57.320 ruled him out in nineteen ninety three, and so what 0:02:57.360 --> 0:02:59.840 do you think of that? I don't take much of it. 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.800 I mentioned that everyone i'd spoken to in law enforcement 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:08.960 was basically on the same page about Lonnie in their view. 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:13.160 The eyewitness's story about seeing him along the roadway with 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:17.679 Tammy and later seeing his wife wearing a watch similar 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:23.359 to Tammy's, well those stories were false. We could talk 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:27.919 about that eyewitness because the eyewitness account I don't think 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:29.960 I can put much weight in. And I'll tell you 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:34.720 why she's traveling on the other side of the highway 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:39.000 and she calls this in a week later, and well, 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:40.920 it doesn't become an issue, you know, it doesn't become 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:43.720 an issue until about a week later. Well, that's what 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:46.120 that's what I'm saying. I mean, I mean, you have 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.640 an eyewitness who Okay, a week ago, I saw I 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.600 drove by, and I saw this green or blue truck 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:59.320 and I saw this guy talking to her. Well, I've 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.480 seen cars broken down myself. There's no way I could 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:05.560 remember what I saw. I don't think it's a good 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:11.080 piece of evidence to go on. Okay, do you think 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:16.120 Lonnie stopped in his truck when Wickie's car broke down? 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.039 I don't think that was Lonnie. And here's here's why, 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:24.160 because just up the road from where Tammy was broken down, 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:30.240 there was another car broken down. Yeah, and and so 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:33.880 I don't know that saw Tammy or saw the other 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:35.719 girl who was broken down. I don't know that. We 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.160 don't We have no way of knowing that. And I 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:40.920 can't hang my hat on a witness on the other 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:45.400 side of the highway driving sixty miles an hour. She 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.160 wasn't violent, no, no, no, no, okay, So she slows 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:50.280 down down, So she slows down, but she's on the 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:54.280 other side of the highway and feeling she's on wait, wait, 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:56.919 wait a minute, wait a minute, let me finish, And 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.880 she drives by on the highway, and then a week 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.719 later she gives a statement about it. So if she 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:04.400 had an eerie feeling, I don't know why she didn't 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:06.960 report it that day or why didn't she stop, why 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:09.680 didn't she drive away? That You're kind of sound to 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.400 me like the state police's view of the witness. I mean, 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.200 you're just down on the witness. Not fun. You concluded 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:19.320 a watch. I just lost my she lost my credibility 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.960 with this watch story. With you know, every Lonnie beer 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.640 Brod to make him the guy. The entire case hangs 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.560 on her everything. I think that's true, and I think 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.040 that that's exactly what happened. People flying by an eighty 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:38.560 five miles an hour. She's the honest. Why would lie. 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:41.440 I don't think she lied. I don't think she lied. 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.200 I'm just saying that what she saw, I don't think 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:48.560 she saw, you know, she she's just kind of you know, oh, 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.719 oh my god, there's a girl missing. Now I saw something. 0:05:53.800 --> 0:05:57.120 Much of Marty's theory about Lonnie beer Brod hung on 0:05:57.160 --> 0:06:01.560 the eyewitness's account. I don't blame him for pursuing this 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.640 lead or for being alarmed by what the witness told 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:08.400 him a decade later, But I spent a year trying 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:14.880 to confirm her story and just couldn't. The other thing 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:19.360 is a sticking with that same witness. There is no watch. 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:24.839 Tammy's watch is still missing. They don't have the watch. 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:30.039 No one's produced the watch, never had the watch. That 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:32.640 was a story that got out there that she has 0:06:32.680 --> 0:06:35.200 no idea. No, no, no, that's not true. The witness 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.800 told me. I'm just going with the witness told me. 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.840 The only witness as far as I know as who 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.640 actually saw it, knew where she was, and everything showed 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.320 her to watch. It was on her risk, right, I got, 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:48.960 I got all that. I just I don't think the 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:53.159 witness is correct. You know you're a polarizing figure in 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:55.840 all of this. You and the Illinois State Police don't 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.800 like each other. Well, let me let me put it 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:03.720 this way. I was on that task force and I 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:08.039 was never satisfied with that report, and I on my 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.880 own went down and found this information out about Mommy. 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:15.120 They had never done it. The case agent never did 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:19.240 ship after the case was referred to him. Not ship, 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:26.720 he threw that whole lead out. That lead was pursued 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:32.160 quite thoroughly. Lonnie's car and home were searched, he provided 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:36.600 blood and DNA, his ex wife gave a lengthy interview 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:42.520 and passed polygraph. It wasn't blown off, though it may 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.560 have seemed that way at the time. As much as 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:50.160 I respect Marty, it doesn't really matter if he believes 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:54.400 any of this or decides not to accept it. Those 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:57.320 are the facts of the case. If you choose to 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.640 look the other way. In my opinion, of developed tunnel vision, 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:06.080 and that lead was never pursued. Had I not been involved. 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.400 Let me just finish that lead would never pursued if 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:13.560 it ends up now that he's cleared. Fact, I went 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:17.640 through everything I had developed up to this point, focusing 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:21.200 on the idea that the ISP hadn't done enough to 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:25.880 clear line. They had done the work. Marty just wasn't 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.840 briefed about it, and so he assumed the worst. But 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:34.360 Marty wouldn't budge for whatever reason, He's still not convinced 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:39.280 that Lonnie can be fully eliminated. Why wouldn't they come 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:42.280 out with that information? I never did. I asked about 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.640 DNA over the years. I've had so many different answers. 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.920 One that there is no DNA. Who is who is 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:56.320 saying this? Oh that's the ISP that's saying it to me. Yeah, okay, 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:58.800 but I don't think the i ISP tested this stuff. 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.480 What I was sent to the FBI. Yeah, I mean 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:06.080 they worked together, so they all knew what was going 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:10.920 on within the investigation. Well, I don't know much about 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:15.360 the DNA. I find it strange that if they had this, 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:17.560 they wouldn't have come out with us, and I mean 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.320 they could have. I find that strange. Number One, Well, 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:24.520 I'm telling you he is cleared. He is cleared. Lonnie 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:28.400 beer brought has been cleared from this crime. I mean, 0:09:28.920 --> 0:09:32.440 I'm open to anything if they have evidence of this, 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:37.080 But in my experience, I accept the witness. She gave 0:09:37.120 --> 0:09:41.440 me this information. I did everything I could to get 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:43.920 that to the State's attorney and to the state police, 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:47.800 and they threw up a wall. From the minute I 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.480 mentioned it to him, I saw him that strange and 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.720 weird now knowing what they know at the time, which 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.960 is this, They've already ruled him out with DNA, So 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.880 why waste time on the guy he been ruled How 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:04.320 come the state's stourney never said that? Why would he 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:09.160 tell you that? The state's attorney never said that, the 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.880 state police never said that. If that's true about Lottie 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.680 in ninety three, why wouldn't they put that out? And 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:18.480 here this is the first time here, it's what twenty 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.440 twenty three, that's the first time I've heard this. It's 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:25.079 from you in twenty twenty three? Was that put out 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.200 publicly that Lottie was eliminated? I don't know why they 0:10:28.200 --> 0:10:31.319 would put that publicly out until they needed to. I mean, 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:33.720 they were they were keeping a lot of their cards 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.160 close to the vest On this right. Do you know 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:40.000 how much press There was a lot of it, instigated 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:42.240 by me all over the count Yeah, I've looked at 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:47.240 was the suspect and here they had the capability in 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.120 ninety three to bow that out of the water and 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:56.680 never did. Don't you find that suspicions? No, The fact 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:00.920 is the ISP and FBI were not running an investigation 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.760 based on what Marty was telling the media. That would 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:08.280 only hinder their work on the case. There was also 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.640 a lot of information the ISP did not want release 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:15.200 to the public. What would it take for you to 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:20.640 believe that Lonnie didn't do this? I'd like to be 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:25.520 convinced that if there's no evidence of the watch, then 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:29.520 there's probably any any more information to go on. Monnie. 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.319 I'm telling you, I'm telling you, there is zero information 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:36.600 about that watch. That watch is a story that got 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:39.320 out there somehow by so it's not a story. It's 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:44.040 not a story. It's from the eyewitness who interviewed them, 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.600 if not just some rumor. Right, What I'm saying is 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:49.960 she put out that story. I don't know why. Marty 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:53.240 and I spoke close to an hour. It got heated 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:57.200 at times. He was not ready to believe that beer 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:01.360 Brott was innocent. No matter what I said, I do 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.120 know that Marty ultimately wants Tammy's killer to be caught 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:08.440 and brought to justice, and he's not looking for any fame. 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:12.440 And if that guy is someone other than Lonnie beer Brott, 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:16.839 so be it. Marty told me he's okay with that. 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.200 Why did you push Lonnie so hard in the media 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:21.800 when you knew that it was going to piss off 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:34.920 the state police because I thought as the killer. One 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.200 of the goals within all the work I do is 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:41.480 to portray the true nature of what investigators go through 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:46.040 and show how their work truly unfolds in real time. 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:49.520 If there is one standout lesson I have learned over 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.920 the years, it is the tedious nature of the ups 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:56.640 and downs, the exhilaration of thinking you've got your guy, 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.320 only to be let down when that last pace of 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:05.840 the puzzle doesn't fit. Over the course of its investigation, 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:11.839 THESP looked at many different potential suspects, people outside the 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:17.080 traditional serial killing trucker. Most of those inquiries never made 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:21.040 headlines and are known only to the people's task with 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:25.840 investigating them. Well, I appreciate you getting back to me 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:28.400 so quickly. I was working Sunday and I heard something 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:31.280 on the radio. Your podcast was about Tammy jose Wikis. 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.920 Right away I recalled that there were some similarities in 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:37.520 our case. After the first few episodes of this season aired, 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.520 I got a call from a former detective who'd worked 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:44.280 in the area of Tammy's abduction in nineteen ninety two. 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:48.920 He remembered her story and had knowledge of a potential suspect, 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:53.640 one I hadn't previously known about for various reasons. He's 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:57.240 asked for his name not to be used, but agreed 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.120 to share his recollection. I remember I was on my 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:02.560 way home. I was getting ready to leave because we 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.480 worked a ten hour shift, and then we got the 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.120 call on that The call was from a neighboring police district, 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.400 from officers who said a man walked into their station 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:14.319 and claimed that there was a dead body in this camper, 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:17.040 which was parked in a campground that was under my 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:21.040 sources jurisdiction. So we all went to the scene. Camper 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.880 was locked up tight. They actually got a warrant for 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.680 the camper, and the body was found. It was actually 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.440 wrapped up in a blanket with duct tape on each end. 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:36.440 It was that grayish silver duct tape. Inside the blanket 0:14:36.560 --> 0:14:39.520 was the body of Denise Marino, a twenty five year 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:43.600 old waitress from West Chicago. The camper was parked at 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:48.960 the now defunct Hideaway Lakes Campground justice of Yorkville, Illinois, 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:53.600 a city about halfway between Chicago and LaSalle County, where 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:58.000 Tammy was abducted just eight months prior. The man who 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.720 owned the camper was Charles D. Parker, a thirty eight 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.160 year old ex con who had served eight years out 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:09.880 of a fifty year sentence in prison for rape. So 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.800 I spent several hours interviewing him, and he admitted to 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.920 being the only one with her drinking. They were drinking 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:23.160 excessive mouth alcohol and they were inhaling carburetor cleaner. He 0:15:23.240 --> 0:15:26.400 met her at a bar in West Chicago and then 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:28.880 somehow convinced her to go back there with I believe 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:31.480 he convinced her to go back there with and from 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:33.920 what I can recall, but she did leave with him willingly. 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:39.000 My source described a deeply unsettling scene. The young woman 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.440 had been stabbed a number of times and had been 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:47.560 sexually assaulted. The body was it was obviously signs of 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:51.680 you know, just brutal, almost like a torturous thing that 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:53.320 he had did her. It was she was bound in 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:55.720 duct tape and then wrapped up in the blanket with 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.440 duct tape. But now the interesting thing he took her 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.600 after she was dead. He took her into the showers, 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.280 which it wasn't too far a walk from where his 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:07.440 camper was. It was one of those truck bed campers, 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:09.960 and it was up on Jack's so he could drive 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:12.040 in and out from underneath of it. You don't see 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.040 him any much anymore, but it was a camper mounted 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:17.560 on the back of the pickup bed. But it was 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.920 a pickup. It was a pickup truck. Many of the 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:24.600 circumstances surrounding how they met and how he lured her 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.000 back to his camper did not fit with Tammy's abduction. 0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:31.920 But there was one detail that piqued my interests and 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:36.600 certainly got my attention. One of the investigators searching the 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:41.280 camper found the ring that said Tammy, but it was 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:45.000 spelled Tami. Okay. It was kind of like a square 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:48.360 ring yea with two letters on the bottom two letters 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.960 on the top formed a bigger square. I went back 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.840 and asked Tammy's family, and a half a dozen of 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.760 her friends. If any of them we call a ring 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:05.200 anything like that, none did. I still hadn't found out. However, 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:09.560 if Parker had been completely eliminated, the chances were slim 0:17:09.600 --> 0:17:12.480 he'd had anything to do with Tammy's murder. But you 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:16.439 can never be entirely certain unless the evidence backs it up. 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.399 And he was questioned about the ring Charlie was and 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.720 what did he say about it? What the other detective 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.639 told me is he got very angry when he was 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:28.879 asked about it. He said, I did not kill Tammy 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:34.960 Jose Wiki. That's what he said to him, allegedly when 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:38.000 he was asked about it, and he got angry. He 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.320 got angry. The way I recalled him, describe me it 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:42.600 to me is while he said that he pounded his 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:48.280 fist on the table and what happens after that? To 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:52.720 my knowledge, the other detective brought that information to ESP 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.600 and nothing became of it. I remember Charlie and this 0:17:56.640 --> 0:18:00.840 case in particular because he had tortured her. It was 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:06.840 an exceptionally violent rape and murdering. Former IP Lieutenant Jeff 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:10.240 Padilla was certain that Parker could be excluded from Tammy's 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.000 case based on the violent nature of Parker's crimes, and 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.960 also how Parker met the victim and got her back 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:20.440 to his camper. I might also add that Parker was 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:25.000 sloppy in didn't seem to be honestly smart enough to 0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:28.199 get away with the murder. For thirty plus years, we 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:30.000 had looked at him, and we had talked about him, 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.960 and we had talked about him, and he didn't fit 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.440 for a number of reasons. Yes, he had a pickup truck, 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.040 but it was in like an encampment. He didn't live 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:40.159 in a neighborhood. It was like a mobile home. She 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.639 had come with him voluntarily back and at some point 0:18:43.880 --> 0:18:48.879 the sexual interaction turned violent, and Charlie found her and 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:53.040 then tortured her throughout the night before she finally died 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:59.440 of blood loss. So the m that entire situation did 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:02.200 not fit at all with what had happened to Tammy, 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.359 and we didn't dismiss it. But the DNA that we 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:09.159 did have was, you know, there was never enough for 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:14.960 a codus inquiry. You know, you essentially could Charlie's DNA 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.800 is available and it has been encoded. You could do 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:23.199 a one to one inquiry against him, which I know 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:27.040 has been done since then. The m O didn't really match, 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.840 so we did the best we could to look into it, 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:35.000 but it didn't fit what we had with Tammy. One 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:38.400 of the more interesting and certainly promising threats the IP 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:43.200 followed early into the investigation is worth mentioning, if only 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:46.200 to put one of the more popular Internet based theories 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.919 in this case into perspective and maybe even gained some 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:53.800 insight into where it originated. There was a guy that 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:58.360 was a truck driver for a company that came onto 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:00.679 the radar and it turned out, you know, he was 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.840 truly a sex offender. He had done a home invasion 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:06.760 rape in like nineteen eighty eight, just prior to the 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:10.359 DNA and sex offender laws and was sentenced to like 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.080 four years in prison and got out right before Tammy 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:16.520 was abducted and murdered. You know, he had done he 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:20.200 had met this girl at a diner that was a waitress. 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:24.280 She was like seventeen years old, eighteen years old, followed 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:28.640 her home, waited outside her residence, saw like when her 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:32.520 parents left, then broke into the house while she was there, 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.080 and then raped her on the floor in the hallway 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.160 and took her panties as a souvenir, and we were 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:40.680 I was like, this has got to be our guy, 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:43.720 and that was never nobody had ever looked into this 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:48.679 that guy's background. If you recall, there was talk early 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:52.000 on about Tammy's killer potentially keeping her body in a 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:56.200 refrigerated truck before placing it off Exit thirty three in Missouri, 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:00.760 which answered the question of why perhaps her boy was 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:04.679 not in an advanced stage of decomposition. He was a 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:07.640 truck driver. It was a refrigerated truck, so that could 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:09.919 account for some of the lack of d comp on Tammy. 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:13.399 When she was recovered, he was up and down I eighty. 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:16.720 As the IP began looking into the guy, they realized 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:19.360 he had taken off to the Upper Midwest for three 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:23.520 days near the time of Tammy's disappearance. And at that time, 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:25.760 you know, like if you'd get a little paper receipt 0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:27.960 from the tollway, that was a big deal because the 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:31.040 tolls were expected for trucks, so they everybody saved the receipts, 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.640 and he didn't have his receipts from going to Michigan. 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:35.760 So when we went back and looked at the case, 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.840 and particularly after VIDOC, he's a guy that that pops 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:41.920 and took up a lot of time from us, because 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:45.159 then we went back and looked at all that. We 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:48.000 went after him hard, you know, had the FBI do 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:50.399 a covert surveillance to him and recovered, you know, and 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:53.760 then did a one to one DNA comparison on him 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:57.440 and eliminated him, even though he was like perfect candidate. 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.720 But boy, we thought for probably a year and a half, 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:03.280 we thought he was good for Tammy's murder. I mean, 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:05.840 so there's a good example here. You are, you got 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:09.560 your guy. You could easily tunnel vision that guy and 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:13.480 bullhorn that for the next twenty five years, right, Yeah, 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:15.399 because we dug I mean, I mean that's how we 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:17.639 found out all about this previous charge and it was like, 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:19.520 oh my god, look at that. We thought we hit 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:22.000 the jackpot, and it turned out it wasn't. You never 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:25.399 got a chance to interview him in the aftermath. We 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:28.119 just knew that without the DNA being a match, we 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:32.320 were out of luck with him. Within all the theories 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:36.240 and suspects I had encountered, many of which seem promising 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:39.840 at face value, there always seemed to be something missing, 0:22:40.240 --> 0:22:47.440 something important. The science DNA is going to solve Tammy's case. 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:51.760 I am completely certain of that, and as these things 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:55.159 generally go, something we hear about every day within the 0:22:55.200 --> 0:22:59.520 world of true crime, technology has caught up to Tammy's case. 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:04.400 A new DNA profile has been extracted from old evidence, 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:08.679 which has opened up a full proof way of developing 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:21.040 a new suspect. We're sorry you have reached a number 0:23:21.080 --> 0:23:23.920 that has been disconnected or is no longer in service. 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:27.120 You have reached the Lawrence County Sheriff's Office. If this 0:23:27.200 --> 0:23:30.080 is an emergency, please hang up and die. All nine 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:34.200 one one, Good morning, Sergeant Phillips. This is m William Phelps, Matthew. Hey, 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:36.800 you've reached the law office of Pierre and Dannally. Please 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:40.919 leave your name number. In the year leading up to 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:44.840 the release of this season and even after, I've pounded 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:49.200 the pavement and made call after call, placing my entire 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:53.760 focus on several unanswered questions from years past and several 0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:58.919 new questions that had arisen in recent months. Most of 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:03.920 the time I got this, Please leave a message, give 0:24:03.960 --> 0:24:05.920 me your number if you want to call back. Thank you. 0:24:06.840 --> 0:24:09.240 In my line of work, you get used to leaving 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:14.200 voicemails and never hearing back from people, but persistence is key, 0:24:14.560 --> 0:24:18.240 and every now and again it pays off. Hi, Karen, 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:22.919 Nice to meet you. Karen Donneley is the former state's 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:26.520 Attorney for LaSalle County, Illinois, a position she held from 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:31.919 two sixteen to twenty twenty. During that time, she became 0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:35.840 deeply familiar with Tammy's case. Yeah, we met about two 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:39.359 years after she left office at her legal practice in 0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:47.320 downtown Ottawa, Illinois. You've heard from Karen briefly in earlier episodes. 0:24:47.720 --> 0:24:50.880 She had Tammy's case for four years as state's attorney, 0:24:51.080 --> 0:24:54.560 and she was brief by investigators from the FBI and 0:24:54.800 --> 0:25:00.439 IP whenever significant developments came up. Like many others from 0:25:00.440 --> 0:25:04.399 the region, Karen was already quite familiar with Tammy's story. 0:25:06.320 --> 0:25:09.640 I was alive and present during this when it happened, 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:12.639 so I was very aware of it and very concerned 0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:15.120 that this happened in such a close location to where 0:25:15.160 --> 0:25:18.399 I live, and that she was such a young age 0:25:18.480 --> 0:25:21.560 when she was taken. So that's how I knew of it. 0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:23.720 And then when I became state's attorney, we had a 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:27.240