1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: Paper Ghosts is a production of iHeartRadio, previously on Paper Ghosts. 2 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,200 Speaker 1: So they took to DNA and how did you feel 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: about that? Oh, it didn't bother me because I mean 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 1: I I wasn't part of it. They got to eliminate everybody. Well, 5 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: I think, you know, I mean, it's always easy to 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: tell the truth, right when you start making up stories. 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: It'll change over time. I mean, if you know, if 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: I told you'll lie today and you came back to 9 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: me five years later, you know I'm asking the same question, 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: I may not respond the same way. Right, He alone 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: perpetuated the Lonnie beer Brott sort of fantasy as a 12 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: suspect because he was no longer part of the investigation, 13 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: so he wasn't aware that Lonnie had been eliminated. My 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,639 Speaker 1: name is eem William Phelps. I'm an investigative journalist. Then off, 15 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 1: they're more than forty true crime books. This is season 16 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: three of Paper Ghosts in Plain Sight. As you have 17 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: heard throughout the podcast, retired ESP Master Sergeant Marty McCarthy 18 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: has been the driving force behind the accusation that Lonnie 19 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,399 Speaker 1: beer brought, a former truck driver with a criminal background 20 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: from LaSalle County Illinois had something to do with Tammy 21 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: Ziwicki's murder. Because of that, beer Brought's name has become 22 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: almost synonymous with the case. Here's a guy who was 23 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: cleared through blood and DNA, a person law enforcement is 24 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: convinced had nothing to do with Tammy's murder, and yet 25 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,960 Speaker 1: if you look online, he might as well be guilty. 26 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: By the fall of twenty twenty two, I'd confirmed through 27 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: multiple sources that Lonnie beer Brought was no longer a 28 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: suspect and Tammy's murder. Law enforcement, however, did not do 29 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 1: much to publicly clear Lonnie's name, or at the very 30 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 1: least reach out to Marty to tell him to back off. 31 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: Hello Marty, Hello Marty, how you doing. It's Matthew. So 32 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: I called Marty myself to discuss the facts that his 33 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: prime suspect, Lonnie beer Brought, was not Tammy's killer, and 34 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: that much of the ribbing he'd done against the ESP 35 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: and FBI was for nothing. Yeah, man, good good. I 36 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: just wanted to follow up with you and talk about 37 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: a few things. Lonnie beer Brought was completely and clearly 38 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: ruled out by blood and DNA. Okay, And they first 39 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: ruled him out in nineteen ninety three, and so what 40 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: do you think of that? I don't take much of it. 41 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 1: I mentioned that everyone i'd spoken to in law enforcement 42 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: was basically on the same page about Lonnie in their view. 43 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: The eyewitness's story about seeing him along the roadway with 44 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 1: Tammy and later seeing his wife wearing a watch similar 45 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 1: to Tammy's, well those stories were false. We could talk 46 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: about that eyewitness because the eyewitness account I don't think 47 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: I can put much weight in. And I'll tell you 48 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: why she's traveling on the other side of the highway 49 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: and she calls this in a week later, and well, 50 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: it doesn't become an issue, you know, it doesn't become 51 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: an issue until about a week later. Well, that's what 52 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. I mean, I mean, you have 53 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: an eyewitness who Okay, a week ago, I saw I 54 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: drove by, and I saw this green or blue truck 55 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: and I saw this guy talking to her. Well, I've 56 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: seen cars broken down myself. There's no way I could 57 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: remember what I saw. I don't think it's a good 58 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: piece of evidence to go on. Okay, do you think 59 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: Lonnie stopped in his truck when Wickie's car broke down? 60 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: I don't think that was Lonnie. And here's here's why, 61 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: because just up the road from where Tammy was broken down, 62 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: there was another car broken down. Yeah, and and so 63 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: I don't know that saw Tammy or saw the other 64 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 1: girl who was broken down. I don't know that. We 65 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: don't We have no way of knowing that. And I 66 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: can't hang my hat on a witness on the other 67 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: side of the highway driving sixty miles an hour. She 68 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 1: wasn't violent, no, no, no, no, okay, So she slows 69 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 1: down down, So she slows down, but she's on the 70 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,280 Speaker 1: other side of the highway and feeling she's on wait, wait, 71 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,919 Speaker 1: wait a minute, wait a minute, let me finish, And 72 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: she drives by on the highway, and then a week 73 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: later she gives a statement about it. So if she 74 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: had an eerie feeling, I don't know why she didn't 75 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: report it that day or why didn't she stop, why 76 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: didn't she drive away? That You're kind of sound to 77 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: me like the state police's view of the witness. I mean, 78 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: you're just down on the witness. Not fun. You concluded 79 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: a watch. I just lost my she lost my credibility 80 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: with this watch story. With you know, every Lonnie beer 81 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: Brod to make him the guy. The entire case hangs 82 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: on her everything. I think that's true, and I think 83 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: that that's exactly what happened. People flying by an eighty 84 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: five miles an hour. She's the honest. Why would lie. 85 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: I don't think she lied. I don't think she lied. 86 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: I'm just saying that what she saw, I don't think 87 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: she saw, you know, she she's just kind of you know, oh, 88 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: oh my god, there's a girl missing. Now I saw something. 89 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: Much of Marty's theory about Lonnie beer Brod hung on 90 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: the eyewitness's account. I don't blame him for pursuing this 91 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 1: lead or for being alarmed by what the witness told 92 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: him a decade later, But I spent a year trying 93 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: to confirm her story and just couldn't. The other thing 94 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: is a sticking with that same witness. There is no watch. 95 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: Tammy's watch is still missing. They don't have the watch. 96 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: No one's produced the watch, never had the watch. That 97 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,640 Speaker 1: was a story that got out there that she has 98 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: no idea. No, no, no, that's not true. The witness 99 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: told me. I'm just going with the witness told me. 100 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 1: The only witness as far as I know as who 101 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: actually saw it, knew where she was, and everything showed 102 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: her to watch. It was on her risk, right, I got, 103 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: I got all that. I just I don't think the 104 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: witness is correct. You know you're a polarizing figure in 105 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 1: all of this. You and the Illinois State Police don't 106 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 1: like each other. Well, let me let me put it 107 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: this way. I was on that task force and I 108 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: was never satisfied with that report, and I on my 109 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: own went down and found this information out about Mommy. 110 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: They had never done it. The case agent never did 111 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: ship after the case was referred to him. Not ship, 112 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: he threw that whole lead out. That lead was pursued 113 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: quite thoroughly. Lonnie's car and home were searched, he provided 114 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 1: blood and DNA, his ex wife gave a lengthy interview 115 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: and passed polygraph. It wasn't blown off, though it may 116 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: have seemed that way at the time. As much as 117 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: I respect Marty, it doesn't really matter if he believes 118 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: any of this or decides not to accept it. Those 119 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: are the facts of the case. If you choose to 120 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: look the other way. In my opinion, of developed tunnel vision, 121 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: and that lead was never pursued. Had I not been involved. 122 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: Let me just finish that lead would never pursued if 123 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: it ends up now that he's cleared. Fact, I went 124 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 1: through everything I had developed up to this point, focusing 125 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: on the idea that the ISP hadn't done enough to 126 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: clear line. They had done the work. Marty just wasn't 127 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: briefed about it, and so he assumed the worst. But 128 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: Marty wouldn't budge for whatever reason, He's still not convinced 129 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: that Lonnie can be fully eliminated. Why wouldn't they come 130 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: out with that information? I never did. I asked about 131 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: DNA over the years. I've had so many different answers. 132 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: One that there is no DNA. Who is who is 133 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: saying this? Oh that's the ISP that's saying it to me. Yeah, okay, 134 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: but I don't think the i ISP tested this stuff. 135 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: What I was sent to the FBI. Yeah, I mean 136 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: they worked together, so they all knew what was going 137 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: on within the investigation. Well, I don't know much about 138 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: the DNA. I find it strange that if they had this, 139 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: they wouldn't have come out with us, and I mean 140 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: they could have. I find that strange. Number One, Well, 141 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: I'm telling you he is cleared. He is cleared. Lonnie 142 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: beer brought has been cleared from this crime. I mean, 143 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: I'm open to anything if they have evidence of this, 144 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: But in my experience, I accept the witness. She gave 145 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: me this information. I did everything I could to get 146 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: that to the State's attorney and to the state police, 147 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: and they threw up a wall. From the minute I 148 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: mentioned it to him, I saw him that strange and 149 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 1: weird now knowing what they know at the time, which 150 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 1: is this, They've already ruled him out with DNA, So 151 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: why waste time on the guy he been ruled How 152 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: come the state's stourney never said that? Why would he 153 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: tell you that? The state's attorney never said that, the 154 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: state police never said that. If that's true about Lottie 155 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: in ninety three, why wouldn't they put that out? And 156 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: here this is the first time here, it's what twenty 157 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: twenty three, that's the first time I've heard this. It's 158 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 1: from you in twenty twenty three? Was that put out 159 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: publicly that Lottie was eliminated? I don't know why they 160 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: would put that publicly out until they needed to. I mean, 161 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: they were they were keeping a lot of their cards 162 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: close to the vest On this right. Do you know 163 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: how much press There was a lot of it, instigated 164 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: by me all over the count Yeah, I've looked at 165 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 1: was the suspect and here they had the capability in 166 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: ninety three to bow that out of the water and 167 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: never did. Don't you find that suspicions? No, The fact 168 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: is the ISP and FBI were not running an investigation 169 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: based on what Marty was telling the media. That would 170 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: only hinder their work on the case. There was also 171 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 1: a lot of information the ISP did not want release 172 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: to the public. What would it take for you to 173 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: believe that Lonnie didn't do this? I'd like to be 174 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: convinced that if there's no evidence of the watch, then 175 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: there's probably any any more information to go on. Monnie. 176 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 1: I'm telling you, I'm telling you, there is zero information 177 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 1: about that watch. That watch is a story that got 178 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: out there somehow by so it's not a story. It's 179 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: not a story. It's from the eyewitness who interviewed them, 180 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: if not just some rumor. Right, What I'm saying is 181 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: she put out that story. I don't know why. Marty 182 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: and I spoke close to an hour. It got heated 183 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: at times. He was not ready to believe that beer 184 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: Brott was innocent. No matter what I said, I do 185 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: know that Marty ultimately wants Tammy's killer to be caught 186 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: and brought to justice, and he's not looking for any fame. 187 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: And if that guy is someone other than Lonnie beer Brott, 188 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 1: so be it. Marty told me he's okay with that. 189 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: Why did you push Lonnie so hard in the media 190 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 1: when you knew that it was going to piss off 191 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: the state police because I thought as the killer. One 192 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: of the goals within all the work I do is 193 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 1: to portray the true nature of what investigators go through 194 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: and show how their work truly unfolds in real time. 195 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: If there is one standout lesson I have learned over 196 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: the years, it is the tedious nature of the ups 197 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: and downs, the exhilaration of thinking you've got your guy, 198 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: only to be let down when that last pace of 199 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: the puzzle doesn't fit. Over the course of its investigation, 200 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:11,839 Speaker 1: THESP looked at many different potential suspects, people outside the 201 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: traditional serial killing trucker. Most of those inquiries never made 202 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: headlines and are known only to the people's task with 203 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: investigating them. Well, I appreciate you getting back to me 204 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: so quickly. I was working Sunday and I heard something 205 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: on the radio. Your podcast was about Tammy jose Wikis. 206 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: Right away I recalled that there were some similarities in 207 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: our case. After the first few episodes of this season aired, 208 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: I got a call from a former detective who'd worked 209 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: in the area of Tammy's abduction in nineteen ninety two. 210 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: He remembered her story and had knowledge of a potential suspect, 211 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: one I hadn't previously known about for various reasons. He's 212 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: asked for his name not to be used, but agreed 213 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: to share his recollection. I remember I was on my 214 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: way home. I was getting ready to leave because we 215 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: worked a ten hour shift, and then we got the 216 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: call on that The call was from a neighboring police district, 217 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: from officers who said a man walked into their station 218 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 1: and claimed that there was a dead body in this camper, 219 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: which was parked in a campground that was under my 220 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: sources jurisdiction. So we all went to the scene. Camper 221 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: was locked up tight. They actually got a warrant for 222 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: the camper, and the body was found. It was actually 223 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: wrapped up in a blanket with duct tape on each end. 224 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: It was that grayish silver duct tape. Inside the blanket 225 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: was the body of Denise Marino, a twenty five year 226 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: old waitress from West Chicago. The camper was parked at 227 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: the now defunct Hideaway Lakes Campground justice of Yorkville, Illinois, 228 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: a city about halfway between Chicago and LaSalle County, where 229 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: Tammy was abducted just eight months prior. The man who 230 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: owned the camper was Charles D. Parker, a thirty eight 231 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: year old ex con who had served eight years out 232 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: of a fifty year sentence in prison for rape. So 233 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: I spent several hours interviewing him, and he admitted to 234 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: being the only one with her drinking. They were drinking 235 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: excessive mouth alcohol and they were inhaling carburetor cleaner. He 236 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: met her at a bar in West Chicago and then 237 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: somehow convinced her to go back there with I believe 238 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: he convinced her to go back there with and from 239 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: what I can recall, but she did leave with him willingly. 240 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: My source described a deeply unsettling scene. The young woman 241 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: had been stabbed a number of times and had been 242 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: sexually assaulted. The body was it was obviously signs of 243 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: you know, just brutal, almost like a torturous thing that 244 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: he had did her. It was she was bound in 245 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: duct tape and then wrapped up in the blanket with 246 00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: duct tape. But now the interesting thing he took her 247 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: after she was dead. He took her into the showers, 248 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: which it wasn't too far a walk from where his 249 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: camper was. It was one of those truck bed campers, 250 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: and it was up on Jack's so he could drive 251 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: in and out from underneath of it. You don't see 252 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: him any much anymore, but it was a camper mounted 253 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: on the back of the pickup bed. But it was 254 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: a pickup. It was a pickup truck. Many of the 255 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: circumstances surrounding how they met and how he lured her 256 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: back to his camper did not fit with Tammy's abduction. 257 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: But there was one detail that piqued my interests and 258 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: certainly got my attention. One of the investigators searching the 259 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: camper found the ring that said Tammy, but it was 260 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: spelled Tami. Okay. It was kind of like a square 261 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: ring yea with two letters on the bottom two letters 262 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: on the top formed a bigger square. I went back 263 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 1: and asked Tammy's family, and a half a dozen of 264 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: her friends. If any of them we call a ring 265 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: anything like that, none did. I still hadn't found out. However, 266 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: if Parker had been completely eliminated, the chances were slim 267 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: he'd had anything to do with Tammy's murder. But you 268 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: can never be entirely certain unless the evidence backs it up. 269 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: And he was questioned about the ring Charlie was and 270 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: what did he say about it? What the other detective 271 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 1: told me is he got very angry when he was 272 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: asked about it. He said, I did not kill Tammy 273 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: Jose Wiki. That's what he said to him, allegedly when 274 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: he was asked about it, and he got angry. He 275 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: got angry. The way I recalled him, describe me it 276 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: to me is while he said that he pounded his 277 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: fist on the table and what happens after that? To 278 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 1: my knowledge, the other detective brought that information to ESP 279 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: and nothing became of it. I remember Charlie and this 280 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: case in particular because he had tortured her. It was 281 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: an exceptionally violent rape and murdering. Former IP Lieutenant Jeff 282 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: Padilla was certain that Parker could be excluded from Tammy's 283 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: case based on the violent nature of Parker's crimes, and 284 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: also how Parker met the victim and got her back 285 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: to his camper. I might also add that Parker was 286 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: sloppy in didn't seem to be honestly smart enough to 287 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: get away with the murder. For thirty plus years, we 288 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: had looked at him, and we had talked about him, 289 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: and we had talked about him, and he didn't fit 290 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: for a number of reasons. Yes, he had a pickup truck, 291 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 1: but it was in like an encampment. He didn't live 292 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,159 Speaker 1: in a neighborhood. It was like a mobile home. She 293 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,639 Speaker 1: had come with him voluntarily back and at some point 294 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: the sexual interaction turned violent, and Charlie found her and 295 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: then tortured her throughout the night before she finally died 296 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: of blood loss. So the m that entire situation did 297 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 1: not fit at all with what had happened to Tammy, 298 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: and we didn't dismiss it. But the DNA that we 299 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 1: did have was, you know, there was never enough for 300 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: a codus inquiry. You know, you essentially could Charlie's DNA 301 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: is available and it has been encoded. You could do 302 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: a one to one inquiry against him, which I know 303 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: has been done since then. The m O didn't really match, 304 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: so we did the best we could to look into it, 305 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: but it didn't fit what we had with Tammy. One 306 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: of the more interesting and certainly promising threats the IP 307 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: followed early into the investigation is worth mentioning, if only 308 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: to put one of the more popular Internet based theories 309 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: in this case into perspective and maybe even gained some 310 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: insight into where it originated. There was a guy that 311 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 1: was a truck driver for a company that came onto 312 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: the radar and it turned out, you know, he was 313 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: truly a sex offender. He had done a home invasion 314 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: rape in like nineteen eighty eight, just prior to the 315 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: DNA and sex offender laws and was sentenced to like 316 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 1: four years in prison and got out right before Tammy 317 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: was abducted and murdered. You know, he had done he 318 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: had met this girl at a diner that was a waitress. 319 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: She was like seventeen years old, eighteen years old, followed 320 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: her home, waited outside her residence, saw like when her 321 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: parents left, then broke into the house while she was there, 322 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: and then raped her on the floor in the hallway 323 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: and took her panties as a souvenir, and we were 324 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: I was like, this has got to be our guy, 325 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: and that was never nobody had ever looked into this 326 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: that guy's background. If you recall, there was talk early 327 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: on about Tammy's killer potentially keeping her body in a 328 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: refrigerated truck before placing it off Exit thirty three in Missouri, 329 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: which answered the question of why perhaps her boy was 330 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: not in an advanced stage of decomposition. He was a 331 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: truck driver. It was a refrigerated truck, so that could 332 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 1: account for some of the lack of d comp on Tammy. 333 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: When she was recovered, he was up and down I eighty. 334 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,720 Speaker 1: As the IP began looking into the guy, they realized 335 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,360 Speaker 1: he had taken off to the Upper Midwest for three 336 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: days near the time of Tammy's disappearance. And at that time, 337 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: you know, like if you'd get a little paper receipt 338 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 1: from the tollway, that was a big deal because the 339 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: tolls were expected for trucks, so they everybody saved the receipts, 340 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,640 Speaker 1: and he didn't have his receipts from going to Michigan. 341 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: So when we went back and looked at the case, 342 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: and particularly after VIDOC, he's a guy that that pops 343 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: and took up a lot of time from us, because 344 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: then we went back and looked at all that. We 345 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: went after him hard, you know, had the FBI do 346 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: a covert surveillance to him and recovered, you know, and 347 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: then did a one to one DNA comparison on him 348 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: and eliminated him, even though he was like perfect candidate. 349 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: But boy, we thought for probably a year and a half, 350 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: we thought he was good for Tammy's murder. I mean, 351 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: so there's a good example here. You are, you got 352 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: your guy. You could easily tunnel vision that guy and 353 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: bullhorn that for the next twenty five years, right, Yeah, 354 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: because we dug I mean, I mean that's how we 355 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 1: found out all about this previous charge and it was like, 356 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: oh my god, look at that. We thought we hit 357 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: the jackpot, and it turned out it wasn't. You never 358 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: got a chance to interview him in the aftermath. We 359 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: just knew that without the DNA being a match, we 360 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: were out of luck with him. Within all the theories 361 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: and suspects I had encountered, many of which seem promising 362 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: at face value, there always seemed to be something missing, 363 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: something important. The science DNA is going to solve Tammy's case. 364 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: I am completely certain of that, and as these things 365 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: generally go, something we hear about every day within the 366 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: world of true crime, technology has caught up to Tammy's case. 367 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 1: A new DNA profile has been extracted from old evidence, 368 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: which has opened up a full proof way of developing 369 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: a new suspect. We're sorry you have reached a number 370 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,920 Speaker 1: that has been disconnected or is no longer in service. 371 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: You have reached the Lawrence County Sheriff's Office. If this 372 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: is an emergency, please hang up and die. All nine 373 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: one one, Good morning, Sergeant Phillips. This is m William Phelps, Matthew. Hey, 374 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: you've reached the law office of Pierre and Dannally. Please 375 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: leave your name number. In the year leading up to 376 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: the release of this season and even after, I've pounded 377 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 1: the pavement and made call after call, placing my entire 378 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: focus on several unanswered questions from years past and several 379 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 1: new questions that had arisen in recent months. Most of 380 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 1: the time I got this, Please leave a message, give 381 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: me your number if you want to call back. Thank you. 382 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: In my line of work, you get used to leaving 383 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 1: voicemails and never hearing back from people, but persistence is key, 384 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: and every now and again it pays off. Hi, Karen, 385 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: Nice to meet you. Karen Donneley is the former state's 386 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 1: Attorney for LaSalle County, Illinois, a position she held from 387 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: two sixteen to twenty twenty. During that time, she became 388 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: deeply familiar with Tammy's case. Yeah, we met about two 389 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: years after she left office at her legal practice in 390 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: downtown Ottawa, Illinois. You've heard from Karen briefly in earlier episodes. 391 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: She had Tammy's case for four years as state's attorney, 392 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: and she was brief by investigators from the FBI and 393 00:24:54,800 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: IP whenever significant developments came up. Like many others from 394 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: the region, Karen was already quite familiar with Tammy's story. 395 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: I was alive and present during this when it happened, 396 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 1: so I was very aware of it and very concerned 397 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,120 Speaker 1: that this happened in such a close location to where 398 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 1: I live, and that she was such a young age 399 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: when she was taken. So that's how I knew of it. 400 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: And then when I became state's attorney, we had a 401 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: small file on it that we kept in the office, 402 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 1: and I looked at the file to see if there 403 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: was anything in there that was worth noting, and there 404 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: really wasn't anything that was new until I was approached 405 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: by the investigators because they liked to come every year 406 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: and tell us, you know, whoever sitting in the seat 407 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: of states Attorney, what's going on. And so you began 408 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: to look back at this case and what strikes you 409 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 1: mostly about it. I was concerned that there was no resolution. 410 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: It was so many possibilities, but nothing was ever zeroed 411 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 1: in on that when I spoke to members of the 412 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: FBI or Illinois State Police that there wasn't much that 413 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,959 Speaker 1: they were going on, and we just felt like it 414 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: was a dead end. And therefore, when I was State's Attorney, 415 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: I offered whatever services I could give them, whether it 416 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: was monetary, you know, anything that we could do. I 417 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: was willing to help. And what did you do? First? 418 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: The investigators came and met with members of the State's 419 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,239 Speaker 1: Attorney's office every year to give us an update what 420 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: they were doing, just to give us a heads up 421 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: in case they needed something from us. We were often 422 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: briefed on where they were at. Here's what you know 423 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,919 Speaker 1: some of the public doesn't know. Here's what we're doing. 424 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: They don't share everything with me. They gave us a 425 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: lot of information about what they were doing. They would 426 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: often come to us and ask for permission to do 427 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: certain things that I had to clear with Tammy's mother. 428 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, law enforcement asked Karen Donnelly to reach 429 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,959 Speaker 1: out to Tammy's mom, Joanne, discussed using the remaining DNA 430 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: that investigators had inevidence. It was later on in my 431 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: ten year of state's attorney that they came to me 432 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,880 Speaker 1: and asked for permission to consume what they had insofar 433 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: as the DNA evidence. That's important to say consuming because 434 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 1: they only have so much correct. Once it's choosed up, 435 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: it's gone. This might surprise the general public, but certain 436 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: DNA tests require physically using up part of the actual 437 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: sample in evidence, and so once the source sample is gone, 438 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: that's it. It's gone. Investigators are left with a profile 439 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: they can match to offenders who are already in some 440 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: type of DNA database, but they're unable to go back 441 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: to that sample again. This can be a big deal, 442 00:27:54,520 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: especially in an era of constantly evolving technology. Law worseman 443 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: agencies are also hesitant to consume all available DNA because 444 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: it can haunt prosecutors. Later, defense attorneys will often ask 445 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: to test DNA independently, and if there's nothing left to test, 446 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: it can make it more difficult to be successful in core. Still, 447 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: it was clear that law enforcement was taking one last 448 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: chance at solving Tammy's case via DNA, and from what 449 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: I had learned, it wasn't a shot in the dark. 450 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: They had good reason. So they come to you and 451 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: you give them the ok to consume that DNA. I 452 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: first called Joanne and we have this discussion about this 453 00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: as our one shot. You know, we may not get 454 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: it again if we agree to do this. She was 455 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: in complete agreement and said we've got to do what 456 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,280 Speaker 1: we've got to do. So I authorize them to consume 457 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: the sample, and that was for testing, to put it 458 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: into CODAS or genealogical or they had a suspect. I 459 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: don't know that they had a suspect. I know that 460 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: when we gave them the authorization to consume the sample, 461 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: it was going to be put into the CODA system. 462 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: And I believe at the time there may have been 463 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: issues about a backlog and codas, and at that time 464 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: I did offer any resources I could, as far as 465 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:18,600 Speaker 1: reverse genealogy because I'm a crime scene nut and I 466 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: watch all those shows. And I offered that to the 467 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: investigators and said, if you need funding to provide the 468 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: sample to them to do this reverse genealogy to see 469 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: if they get a hit, I would fund that. And 470 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: did they take your offer? They weren't at that point yet, 471 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: because I think they were still waiting to submit to CODIS. 472 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: Since twenty twenty, investigators working on Tammy's case have refocused 473 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 1: on DNA. They started reaching out to people connected to 474 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: Tammy and anyone involved in the earliest days of the 475 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: investigation and asking them for a DNA sample. On top 476 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: of that, with the help of more advanced forensic and 477 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: DNA technology, they started to go back through all the 478 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 1: evidence to see what, if anything, the killer could have 479 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: left behind. When I spoke to Joanne Ziwiki, she confirmed 480 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 1: that the ISP had been in contact as recently as 481 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two and had told her they were sending 482 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: DNA to a lab in California for testing. Here's Tammy's brother, Todd. 483 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: DNA evidence became more sophisticated, that started becoming more promising. 484 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: I started to hear rumors that they had additional DNA 485 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: that was usable, and so, you know, in the last 486 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: few years, I've become a little bit more optimistic as 487 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: it sounded like the operation was still proceeding and that 488 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: they were building, you know, potentially building a case and 489 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: starting to express some greater optimism than they did for 490 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: decades before that. And recently your mom has told me 491 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: that has been calling to ask, you know, we have 492 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: some DNA that we want to submit somewhere in California, 493 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: right what have you heard about that part of it? 494 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: A couple of local FBI agents came to my house 495 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: and took a DNA swab for me, and I believe 496 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: they've done the same thing with both of my brothers. 497 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: They apparently found now DNA that they can use and 498 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: they wanted to make sure it wasn't ours, So obviously 499 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: they have something that they're processing. They did find something 500 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: somewhere that was usable, that was different from what they 501 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: had previously had, at least enough and good enough condition 502 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: that they wanted to take my own DNA and rule 503 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: out the possibility there was one of us, one of 504 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 1: the boys in the family. I've also been told by 505 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: law enforcement who were present at the body recovery site 506 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two that they too, had recently given 507 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:49,479 Speaker 1: the FBI their DNA. Every DNA expert I consulted with, 508 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: along with former members of the ISP, talked about one 509 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: of three scenarios likely taking place. That technology had caught 510 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: up with the DNA collected at the time Tammy's body 511 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: was recovered, a new suspect had been developed, and or 512 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: investigators were now pursuing investigative genetic genealogy. Forensic genetic genealogy 513 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: is a labor intensive science that utilizes genetic information from 514 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: direct to consumer companies like ancestry, dot Com and twenty 515 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: three in May to identify suspects or victims in criminal cases. 516 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: Many see it as a magic investigative wand to wave 517 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: and a suspect of peers, but it's far more difficult 518 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: than that. Millions of DNA profiles within a database help 519 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: investigators create family trees, working backwards funneling down with the 520 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: hope of matching a DNA sample to a suspect. As 521 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: former ISP Lieutenant Jeff Pedia explains, the DNA analysis part 522 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: of the investigation is complex work. Just remember that there's 523 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: going to be the involvement of essentially two different laboratories, 524 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: so one can extract DNA and then expand it. You know, 525 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 1: so if you if you had a limited sample, you 526 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: could then you would use that that lab for that, 527 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: But then you would need another you would need a 528 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: genealogy like a laboratory that specializes in genealogy DNA because 529 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: it's much different, right, right, two different types of testing 530 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: if you the source of the DNA in Tammy's case 531 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,719 Speaker 1: has never been made clear to the public. Where exactly 532 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: did the most viable DNA sample or samples come from 533 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: and what does it tell us about Tammy's killer. So 534 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: there was never no um DNA on her shorts or 535 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 1: anything like that, like semen blood no okay, no, okay, okay. 536 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:57,239 Speaker 1: So yes, there's was lots of blood. The problem is 537 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: that her blood contaminated and eliminated the ability for us 538 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: to collect epithelial DNA. Basically, the blood soaked like her 539 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: blood soaked T shirt was of no use to us. 540 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: By the time Padilla and his team started working the case, 541 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: technology had advanced to the point that investigators were able 542 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: to collect and test epithelial DNA or touch DNA, which 543 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,760 Speaker 1: essentially are cells that have been left behind on an object. 544 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: Or surface tammy shirt wasn't something they could test, but 545 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: other sources now provided investigators with the opportunity to develop 546 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: valuable samples. Items such as the blanket that her body 547 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 1: was wrapped in, the clothing that she was found in. 548 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: There was duct tape that was used to secure the 549 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: ends of the blanket that she was wrapped in, and 550 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: so all of those items, those physical items were available 551 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: to us. Her shoe were of interest to us. I'll 552 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: say that in the process of our analysis of the 553 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: physical evidence using more modern DNA a test, the shoelaces 554 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 1: were of tremendous interest to us, which was a struggle 555 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 1: getting any of this um any of this physical evidence reanalyzed. 556 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: So the DNA is definitely DNA that can connect the 557 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: killer to her murder. Yes, that is the power of 558 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:35,399 Speaker 1: technology evolving, catching up two killers in this particular case. 559 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: You en, DNA was in its infancy at that time, 560 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: there's very limited opportunities to do DNA, and the DNA 561 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: tests were inaccurate or inconclusive. But by twenty and twelve 562 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: we had some really DNA had made some tremendous advancements 563 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: as it continues to do, and so I thought it 564 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 1: was worth it to go through the case foule like 565 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: it was brand new, like we had just got and 566 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 1: make it a bit of a project for the detectives 567 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: assigned me. The issue at hand was whether the amount 568 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: of DNA law enforcement had left to test in twenty 569 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 1: twenty two was enough to develop a viable DNA profile 570 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: that could be compared to forensic genealogy databases. Somebody had 571 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 1: to have contact with the sheet when she was wrapping. 572 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: Somebody had to have contact with the duct tape. Somebody 573 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 1: had to have contact with Tammy's clothing and body, and 574 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:35,359 Speaker 1: so all those items were methodically identified In talking with 575 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: different investigators from the case. I'm confident it was all 576 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: of this information. Advancements in DNA technology, swab samples, a 577 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:52,719 Speaker 1: new lab involved, and potential forensic genealogy began to make 578 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: more sense to me during the summer of twenty twenty 579 00:36:56,120 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: two when I learned about the latest potential suspect, someone 580 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,640 Speaker 1: connected to the DNA findings who had been on investigator's 581 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: radar since the early nineties. Someone was still alive, not 582 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: a semitruck driver or a known serial killer. I'm told 583 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: the person law enforcement has been hyper focused on at 584 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: the time of this recording. It's right there throughout it 585 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: all on the ground, in the thick of it, wearing 586 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: a uniform on the next episode of Paper Ghosts, and 587 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: some interms have insolved after so many years because of 588 00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: its being left in a spotlight. So some days are good, 589 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: some days I'm so good. We always struggled with the 590 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 1: idea of, you know, the couple of things, somebody in 591 00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,320 Speaker 1: a position of authority, or somebody right at her age 592 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: that she may have known. I believe that she was 593 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: dumped across state to draw interest away from where she 594 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 1: was picked up, and I believe that that's because that 595 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 1: area has a connection to her killer. If you are 596 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,720 Speaker 1: enjoying Paper Ghosts, please listen to my other podcast, Crossing 597 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: the Line with Them William Phelps, where I use the 598 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: same storytelling elements you've heard in Paper Ghosts and cover 599 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: missing person and murder cases. Paper Ghosts is written and 600 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 1: executive produced by me and William Phelps and iHeart executive 601 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: producer Christina Everett. Additional writing by our supervising producer Julia Weaver. 602 00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Darby Masters, Audio editing and mixing 603 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,879 Speaker 1: by Christian Bowman and abou zafar Our series theme number 604 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,359 Speaker 1: four four two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps 605 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 1: and Tom Mooney. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 606 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 607 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 1: favorite shows.