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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: And there's nothing worse than living in fear twenty four

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Speaker 2: hours day, fear that's inside your own house.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. The disappearance in twenty nineteen

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Speaker 1: of Jennifer Dulos is one of the most chilling stories

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Speaker 1: I've ever read about. When the mother of five vanished

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Speaker 1: from her wealthy Connecticut suburb, her estranged husband became the

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Speaker 1: prime suspect, but when Photus Dulos ended his own life,

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Speaker 1: the mystery deepened. Author Rich Cohen has the inside story

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Speaker 1: in his book Murder in the dollhouse. So when you

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Speaker 1: bring up this subject to some of your friends who

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Speaker 1: know about the story, maybe bits and pieces of it,

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Speaker 1: what do you say that just says, this is the theme,

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Speaker 1: this is really what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 2: Well, I feel like Ryan lived. Everybody knows a story

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Speaker 2: because I live very close to where it happened, and

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Speaker 2: it was like a horror story happening in real life.

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Speaker 2: Started as a missing person story, turned into a search

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Speaker 2: for a body, and we all knew about this story,

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Speaker 2: but we didn't know about Jennifer Doulo as a person.

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Speaker 2: And when I got to know about her, in turns

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Speaker 2: out we have a lot of friends in common. It's

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Speaker 2: that her life is so much like every one of

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Speaker 2: our lives, and she seems like such a familiar person,

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Speaker 2: Like I felt like she couldn't be my sister. It

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Speaker 2: felt like I understood her very very well. I tell

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Speaker 2: people that sort of you just know, sort of the

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Speaker 2: tabloid version of the story. But to really understand the

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Speaker 2: enormity of this crime that her husband committed killing her,

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Speaker 2: you have to really know what she was like as

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Speaker 2: a person. And that's kind of what I tried to

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Speaker 2: do in the book. You know, and then there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of things in the book that I think are

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Speaker 2: genuinely news that shocked me. It was one of those

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Speaker 2: rare nonfiction reporting things some a nonfiction writer and journalists

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Speaker 2: were actually usually you kind of know what happened before

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Speaker 2: you start reporting, that's just the truth. In this case,

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Speaker 2: I found things out that shocked me and made the

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Speaker 2: whole things seem different to me several times. So it's

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Speaker 2: it's hard to sum up for that reason because it's

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Speaker 2: a big story.

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Speaker 1: Well, and part of what you go into the book,

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Speaker 1: which I think is great, is, you know, on the

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Speaker 1: s I think you can look at Jennifer Doulos as

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Speaker 1: someone who came from, you know, wealth, someone who didn't

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Speaker 1: have to work necessarily, but also wanted a family, was

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Speaker 1: trying to make good decisions about who she was having

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Speaker 1: a family with. Boy, I tell my girls, please be

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Speaker 1: careful about who you have children with. You know, Mary,

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Speaker 1: let alone have children with, because you're stuck with that person,

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Speaker 1: not just for eighteen years. She you know, was the

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Speaker 1: is it the niece of Liz Claiborne. Yeah, and came from,

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Speaker 1: you know, a wealthy family and seemed privileged. But at

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Speaker 1: the same time, you know, this is this is a

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Speaker 1: person who liked the rest of us. We're just trying

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Speaker 1: to make good decisions and make her dreams come true.

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Speaker 1: And then as we go through this, you know what,

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Speaker 1: we can learn a lot more about Jennifer, which is

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Speaker 1: what I'm going to appreciate the most, I think.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I agree with you in that de kids

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Speaker 2: tell you are when you got married, she was a

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Speaker 2: little bit older. But when you get married, usually make

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Speaker 2: a decision, like if you look at it, you get married,

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Speaker 2: like my mom was nineteen when she married my father.

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Speaker 2: There's not a decision you would have made the same

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Speaker 2: way to age nineteen. Your decisions are not supposed to

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Speaker 2: hold up. You do stupid things when you're in your twenties,

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Speaker 2: and yet you make, if you get married, the most

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Speaker 2: important decision of your life, and it's got a weather time,

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Speaker 2: and you feel that like a large element of it

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Speaker 2: is luck, you know, I mean, you try to be smart.

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Speaker 2: And that's the thing with Jennifer too. You don't really

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Speaker 2: know who you're marrying until he's married them, at which

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Speaker 2: point it's too late. And she married, she got married

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Speaker 2: when she was older. You said she had really two dreams.

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Speaker 2: One was a writer's dream to be a playwright, and

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Speaker 2: the other was, you know, it's called murder in the

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Speaker 2: Dollhouse because she was obsessed with dolls dollhouses when she

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Speaker 2: was a little girl, and she tried to build that

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Speaker 2: in the real world in Connecticut. And at some point

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Speaker 2: she felt like she couldn't have both, and for a

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Speaker 2: bunch of reasons, she gave up a writing dream and

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Speaker 2: went all in and sort of almost picked this husband,

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Speaker 2: like you cast a part in a play. Like he

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Speaker 2: looked right, he had the right credentials, he went to

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Speaker 2: the right schools. They've both gone to Brown. He was

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Speaker 2: very good looking. She said she wanted to look great

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Speaker 2: with the person she danced with at her wedding. Well

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Speaker 2: she did. They were both great looking people. But at

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Speaker 2: the end the guy was I believe a psychopath. And

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Speaker 2: there's really no way to prepare for that. And we

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Speaker 2: talk about the missing White Girl's syndrome, whatever they call it,

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Speaker 2: and I understand that. But one of the fallacies in

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Speaker 2: all this is that somehow it's always good to have money. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and we tend to think people that have money have

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Speaker 2: good lives, and tend to think that if we make

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Speaker 2: enough money will be safe and for me, part of

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Speaker 2: this story is no amount of money can protect you,

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Speaker 2: and in fact, in this case, having money made it

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Speaker 2: worse because some of you are in the divorce court

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Speaker 2: where you could afford lawyers for over a year and

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Speaker 2: you can fight over every little thing. So a situation

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Speaker 2: where we had no money, it would have just settled

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Speaker 2: it because nobody would have cared to be employed by

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Speaker 2: you for a year ended up being dragged out at

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Speaker 2: this moment of high tension that lasted for over a year.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, And that does seem like the big theme

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Speaker 1: here as money is a danger versus money as some

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Speaker 1: of an attribute. Can we talk about Jennifer Dulos before

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Speaker 1: she was Jennifer Dulos and kind of the world that

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Speaker 1: she came from.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, her parents had this ideal marriage, and you know,

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Speaker 2: we all kind of turn our parents if our parents

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Speaker 2: have a good marriage. We turned their courtship into a

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Speaker 2: family fairy tale. And one of the things she problems

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Speaker 2: she had, I think is shed leave this fairy tale

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Speaker 2: of true love about her parents. And they had a

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Speaker 2: great marriage, but it is a fairy tale, and when

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Speaker 2: you're a kid, you're supposed to sort of give it

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Speaker 2: up and realize people are people. She always believed in it,

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Speaker 2: always was after it herself. Her aunt was Liz Blademore.

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Speaker 2: Her father was also hugely successful, and he was the

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Speaker 2: first Jewish head the bond apartment at GP Morgan Bank

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Speaker 2: in the seventies. Okay, this was a very like old money,

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Speaker 2: waspy culture, and to fit into that culture, he had

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Speaker 2: to kind of remake himself, and he believed in this

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Speaker 2: ideal of kind of the perfect marriage. Was this old money,

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Speaker 2: losty guy. I mean like certain kind of clothes, certain

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Speaker 2: kind of fabrics, certain kind of drinks, certain kind of gin,

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Speaker 2: certain clubs. And I believe he did that for professional reasons.

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Speaker 2: I know because my father did the same thing, which

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Speaker 2: she had to do if you were Jewish or Catholic

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Speaker 2: or anything in America in the early nineteen sixties, going

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Speaker 2: into business if you're anything but a lost So I

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Speaker 2: think she and he had a name for the ideal,

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Speaker 2: which was Bank, and she's sort of Jennifer believed in this.

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Speaker 2: This was the ideal person was this very waspy figure

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Speaker 2: sheet they called Bank. And she sought this person out

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Speaker 2: and of course that's again another fantasy. That person doesn't

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Speaker 2: really exist, but in a weird way. We take the

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Speaker 2: things our parents say seriously, and sometimes it's like your

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Speaker 2: parents forgot to tell you, Oh, that was a joke.

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Speaker 2: So she grew very wealthy in Brooklyn Heights or I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you know Brooklyn Heights, but it's certain,

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Speaker 2: in my opinion, the best neighborhood in New York. It's

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Speaker 2: like you're right across the river with an unbelievable view

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Speaker 2: of Flora Manhattan. Every time you see a movie shot

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Speaker 2: of Manhattan, it's taken from the Promenadgue on Brooklyn Heights.

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Speaker 2: She went to this great private school called Saint Anne's

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Speaker 2: and if you read the alumni, it's children of celebrities.

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Speaker 2: Just the top. It's like sixty thousand dollars a year. Now.

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Speaker 2: She was walking distance from the school, but her father

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Speaker 2: was very, very very protective of her to the extent

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Speaker 2: that he didn't even want her like riding in the subway,

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Speaker 2: which is some part of growing up in New York.

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Speaker 2: So he had for her car and driver who would

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Speaker 2: take her everywhere. She never had a wait in the

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Speaker 2: rain for a taxian, and could also kind of supply

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Speaker 2: intelligence for her father about where she was, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of people think the tragedy of what happened to

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Speaker 2: her is that she was over protected. She was so

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Speaker 2: protected from bad people and the bad things that when

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Speaker 2: one finally showed up in her life, she was basically defensive.

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Speaker 1: Was she an only child or did she have siblings

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Speaker 1: that were treated the same way?

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Speaker 2: She has an older sister who was treated the same way,

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Speaker 2: but her older sister I don't really talk a lot

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Speaker 2: about in the book intentionally or had certain mental health

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Speaker 2: issues and sort of was a different case. So in

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Speaker 2: a way, she was treated a bit like a princess

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Speaker 2: and like an only child. And people talked about this constantly.

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Speaker 2: As a matter of fact, when I called their old

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Speaker 2: friends and talked to them, they would say, when they

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Speaker 2: heard that Jennifer had died, they knew that Hillard, her

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Speaker 2: father was dead, because as long as he was alive,

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Speaker 2: she would be protected. And there's a lot of truth

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Speaker 2: in that. And once that protection was gone, she was

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Speaker 2: basically on her own in the world and was sort

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Speaker 2: of overmatched in this relationship.

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Speaker 1: Did her father Hillard police the men you know that

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Speaker 1: were coming into her life, like, would he give a

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Speaker 1: thumbs up approval up until she meets her husband.

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Speaker 2: I don't think he really policed her in that way

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Speaker 2: because her relationships weren't serious, so when they became serious,

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Speaker 2: that was a different story. But I think very much

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Speaker 2: he also had this fantasy for her. She went to Brown,

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Speaker 2: she first met photos Duelis at Brown, wasn't interested in

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Speaker 2: him then, but was friendly with him. And then she

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Speaker 2: went to the NYU playwriting program and with a bunch

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Speaker 2: of other students who many of whom went on and

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Speaker 2: became very successful in Hollywood, created shows and showrunners and everything.

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Speaker 2: She started this playwriting group and they started putting on

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Speaker 2: their own plays. And her father really gave a lot

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Speaker 2: of money and bankrolled this thing and would buy all

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Speaker 2: the tickets to the plays. But I think he always

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Speaker 2: saw it as a bit of a like a hobby,

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Speaker 2: like something she did on the side till her real

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Speaker 2: life began. And a big moment for her, which you

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Speaker 2: know if you read the book, and was one of

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Speaker 2: the things that shocked me is she wrote this play.

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Speaker 2: She was like me. That's why identified with her, and

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Speaker 2: that she worked from her own life and her own

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Speaker 2: experience as a writer. There's a famous quote, Philip Roth

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Speaker 2: us to quote it all the time when a writer

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Speaker 2: is born into a family that family was finished, because

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Speaker 2: you have to be merciless with about your own family

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Speaker 2: if you're going to be good. And she wrote a

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Speaker 2: play kind of gently mocking her family and her world

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Speaker 2: she came from. And it was handed off to this guy,

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Speaker 2: Eduardo Macatto, who I knew because I later worked on

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Speaker 2: a TV show with him, and he's like a very

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Speaker 2: fierce kind of artist. And he took her play and

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Speaker 2: saw though it was a gentle kind of satire, underneath

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Speaker 2: it was a portrait of this very hollow way of life,

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Speaker 2: and he pulled that out and made it a very

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Speaker 2: dark comedy and it was a big hit. Playwriting group

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Speaker 2: was called the Playwrights Collected. With the biggest hit they had,

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Speaker 2: they extended the run. It was reviewed in The Villain

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Speaker 2: Voice and the New York Server, all over the variet

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Speaker 2: It was reviewed all over the place, and her family

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Speaker 2: came and saw it, and her father basically said, in

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Speaker 2: a very coarse language, you've made your family look terrible.

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Speaker 2: And at that point, it was like she reached that

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Speaker 2: point that everybody who writes about their only own family

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Speaker 2: come to, which is she had to chew, you know,

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Speaker 2: if she was going to go with her art or

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Speaker 2: if she was going to sort of be the daughter.

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Speaker 2: And it's like she a little bit like she chickened

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Speaker 2: out right at that point and she quit play. She

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Speaker 2: pulled the play, she canceled the run, she canceled the

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Speaker 2: playwriting group. She never wrote another play that we know of. Again,

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Speaker 2: she kind of went out west. She converted to Christianity

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Speaker 2: from Judaism.

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Speaker 1: How was that? Did that go over okay with Hillarn?

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Speaker 2: She never told her family, and that was like a

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Speaker 2: legitimate beef that her that Photus had, because that's another story.

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Speaker 2: But she never told her family. But she was somebody

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Speaker 2: not really comfortable in her identity. And I understand it

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Speaker 2: because you know, now everything's about identity. Everybody wants to

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Speaker 2: their own identity. When we were growing up, the whole

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Speaker 2: thing was your identity is American, and you don't want

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Speaker 2: anything that pulls you out of that. And if you're

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Speaker 2: a writer, you want everybody to like what you write,

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Speaker 2: and you don't want to have a name that makes

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Speaker 2: people think of you as this or that. You want

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Speaker 2: to be the big thing. So to her, it was

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Speaker 2: important that she was Christian, that she didn't have a

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Speaker 2: name like Farber. She changed her name, and later one

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Speaker 2: of the people said one of the happiest moments apt

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Speaker 2: she got married was changing her name from Farvard Todulos.

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Speaker 2: And then she met Fotus on that trip. So in

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Speaker 2: a weird way for me looking at it, because I

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Speaker 2: felt like we're on parallel tracks. I was in New

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Speaker 2: York in the nineties with the same friends, at the

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Speaker 2: same parties, trying to do a version of the same thing,

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Speaker 2: and we both got to a point where we moved

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Speaker 2: to Connecticut and had many kids very quickly. But when

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Speaker 2: she got to the point where she had to choose,

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Speaker 2: she kind of like chose to leave her writing life

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Speaker 2: and her friends behind. And there's something very sad about it.

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Speaker 2: Only later and you look back and say, that was

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Speaker 2: a real turning. That could have gone this way, that

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Speaker 2: could have gone that. So it's like sort of the

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Speaker 2: sadness of the person who doesn't quite become the person

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Speaker 2: they had the potential of being. And that's really the

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Speaker 2: tragedy of her, because we can be talking about her

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Speaker 2: right now, is like she was Norah Ephron. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think she had that kind of talent and I

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Speaker 2: would like to think that at the end of her life.

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Speaker 2: After she left her husband. She was starting to write

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Speaker 2: again and that might still have happened, but he took

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Speaker 2: that away from her too.

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Speaker 1: So she goes to Brown and she meets Potus and

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Speaker 1: how are they meeting? And by the way, I did

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Speaker 1: not know a name like Doula's would be. It's a

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Speaker 1: Greek name, right, I mean, is that something in Connecticut?

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Speaker 2: Then well that's the joke. The joke is she wants

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Speaker 2: to bank and she winds up with another ethnic group

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Speaker 2: like Judius, and she winds up with somebody who's actually

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Speaker 2: a Greek national and who speaks with an accent and

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Speaker 2: is you know, Greek Orthodox. It's a different thing. It's

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Speaker 2: not what she had dreamed of. But it's interesting because

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Speaker 2: she wasn't interested in when she met him. He was

293
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Speaker 2: very handsome. He had been sort of a superstar athlete

294
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Speaker 2: growing up. He'd been on the Greek national water ski team.

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Speaker 2: But in Brown there are a lot of very rich expacts,

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Speaker 2: like you know, sons of Greek shipping airs kind of people.

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Speaker 2: He wasn't that. He was a middle class kid who

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Speaker 2: had to work to get into Brown and was very

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Speaker 2: status conscious and very class conscious in a way that

300
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Speaker 2: I think most Americans, whatever we say about America, we

301
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,760
Speaker 2: just aren't okay. So very much was trying to get

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Speaker 2: out of the position he was in socially because of

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Speaker 2: his class. And you always saw her. She was beautiful

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Speaker 2: and she was away to a higher world. That's how

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Speaker 2: I think he saw her to him. To her at

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Speaker 2: age twenty one, he was very good looking, very nice,

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Speaker 2: and very boring, and she was uninterested in him for

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Speaker 2: all those reasons. When she met him again and he's

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Speaker 2: like thirty five, she wants to have kids. Her first

310
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Speaker 2: career blew up. Told me, the guy that seemed uninteresting

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Speaker 2: at twenty one now is very interesting in age thirty five,

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Speaker 2: when everybody's gotten married, there's fewer options. She's running out

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Speaker 2: of time. I believe she lowered her defenses because he

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Speaker 2: checked so many boxes that made him seem safe. The

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Speaker 2: main one is he went to Brown and they knew

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Speaker 2: the same people, so she thought she knew him when

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Speaker 2: she didn't. And the other one was that he then

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Speaker 2: went to the Columbia Business School, he worked in a

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00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,560
Speaker 2: big company. He just fit the role, you know. And

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Speaker 2: the person who knew from everybody I've spoken to, even

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Speaker 2: since his books come out, is right from the beginning,

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Speaker 2: Hillar and Farmer knew the guy with trouble. They got

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Speaker 2: in a huge fight that basically turned physical very early

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Speaker 2: in the marriage, with bot Is actually throwing a chair

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Speaker 2: at his father in law and threatening to take Jennifer

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Speaker 2: and disappear. And they never that's something they always was threatening,

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Speaker 2: and so he sort of pledged himself to sort of

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Speaker 2: protect her. But I think that it is interesting the

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Speaker 2: choices you make when you feel like you're running against time,

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Speaker 2: which I think she felt like. And if you look,

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Speaker 2: she went from no kids to five kids in seven years,

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Speaker 2: and that's very tough, no matter how much money you have,

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Speaker 2: that's tough.

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Speaker 1: Do you think he was driving for that number of

335
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Speaker 1: kids or do you think it was her.

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Speaker 2: I honestly don't know if he even cared if he

337
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Speaker 2: had kids. I mean, from everything I say, I hate

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Speaker 2: to say that Becauntry loved his kids whatever. I don't

339
00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 2: want to but very much was about the boys more

340
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,920
Speaker 2: than girls. He felt like a deal had kind of

341
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,880
Speaker 2: been made, which is he gave Jennifer what she wanted,

342
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,880
Speaker 2: which was kids, a big family, a husband that looked good,

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Speaker 2: and she gave him what he wanted, which was the

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00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,679
Speaker 2: money to start a home building business, which was his

345
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,160
Speaker 2: house building group where they built these giant McMansions all

346
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Speaker 2: over suburbs of Hartford in Connecticut, And that business, which

347
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:27,840
Speaker 2: looked very successful on paper, was actually entirely bankrolled by

348
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Speaker 2: Hillard Farber. So I call him like the the tempkin

349
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Speaker 2: son in law because it's like you go in the

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00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,560
Speaker 2: front door and your back outside. I mean, that's my

351
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,760
Speaker 2: sort of feeling about the guy. So I feel like

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00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:39,720
Speaker 2: it was part of the deal. And I feel like

353
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Speaker 2: once she had the kids and was busy with the kids,

354
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:44,879
Speaker 2: he felt one that he didn't get the attention that

355
00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,280
Speaker 2: he wanted from her, and her attention was now on

356
00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,399
Speaker 2: the kids. Also, he felt like he'd done his part

357
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,200
Speaker 2: and now he can do what he wanted, which was travel,

358
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,800
Speaker 2: have affairs, do whatever he wanted. And throughout the whole

359
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,960
Speaker 2: this story researching, it comes across about him as a

360
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,560
Speaker 2: tremendous amount of self pity. He always feels sorry for

361
00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,240
Speaker 2: himself that he's not getting we should have and he

362
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:08,960
Speaker 2: deserves more.

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00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,199
Speaker 1: You know, I talked to I've mentioned this on my

364
00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 1: show before. I've talked to Catherine Ramslin. You know, he's

365
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,320
Speaker 1: a very famous forensic psychologist who spent a lot of

366
00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,840
Speaker 1: time with BTK with Dennis Raider, who she says, is

367
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,359
Speaker 1: you know has psychopathy, psychopathy which you mentioned with with us,

368
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Speaker 1: and she said, you know you use that hair checklist.

369
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Speaker 1: There's no real scan you can do, and you know

370
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Speaker 1: there's all of these markers like grandiose sense of self

371
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Speaker 1: and a facade, and you know you had gotten into

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Speaker 1: trouble maybe when you were a kid, and you know

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Speaker 1: this whole thing, And she said, I actually talked to

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Speaker 1: Robert Hare, who created this checklist, and she said, you

375
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Speaker 1: have to add whining to that, because the self pity

376
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,600
Speaker 1: is real with everybody. Ted Bundy, Dennis Raider would whine

377
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Speaker 1: about like being interrupted or his plan going awry, as

378
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 1: if you know, his cab didn't come on or something.

379
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,280
Speaker 1: It sounds like you saw that with photos also.

380
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Speaker 2: Always having temper tantrums and always doing things to let

381
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,639
Speaker 2: Jennifer know that he was in charge and it was

382
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,119
Speaker 2: his show. And basically, I feel like one way to

383
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,680
Speaker 2: look at the story is she said yes to every

384
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,480
Speaker 2: single thing he ever wanted until her father died and

385
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,679
Speaker 2: he had an affair with this woman, Michelle Jaconiz. He

386
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,480
Speaker 2: wanted to bring that relationship into the open and actually

387
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 2: set up a situation where they would all basically live

388
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Speaker 2: together and glend Jennifer's kids with his daughter, and he

389
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,400
Speaker 2: said to Jennifer, you know, you'll stay in this house too.

390
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:38,240
Speaker 2: This is a house that Jennifer's mother's paying for. Okay,

391
00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,040
Speaker 2: you'll stay in this house too, and you can even

392
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 2: have your own room. That's what my mom told me

393
00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,679
Speaker 2: when we moved from Libertyville, Illinois to Glencoe when I

394
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 2: was five years old, you know. And so basically she

395
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,320
Speaker 2: said yes to him until she said no to that,

396
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,280
Speaker 2: and he just couldn't handle her saying no to him,

397
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,920
Speaker 2: and that sent off the chain of events that led

398
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 2: to her death. And as far as the hair of

399
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 2: the checklist you're talking about, it's really interesting because when

400
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 2: I step back and say, what is this real? What's

401
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,760
Speaker 2: the big picture of all these different attributes we can

402
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,040
Speaker 2: look at. To me, like a definition of evil is

403
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,120
Speaker 2: somebody who doesn't see other people as real. They see

404
00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:22,560
Speaker 2: them as objects in one way or another. It's almost

405
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,480
Speaker 2: like the non player video game character. You know that

406
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,600
Speaker 2: that's not really a real person. And I feel like

407
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,480
Speaker 2: the sense I got from him is this the guy

408
00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 2: who only saw himself as real, and he saw other

409
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,399
Speaker 2: people as objects. And when he met Jennifer in the

410
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 2: Aspen airport, he saw her as an object. He could

411
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,080
Speaker 2: use the tool to get what he wanted, which was money,

412
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,720
Speaker 2: started his business climb and class and at the end

413
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 2: she was still an object. But now she was an

414
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 2: object standing in the way of what he wanted, which

415
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 2: was this life with this other woman, and so he

416
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 2: removed her. And the way I say that very coldly

417
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 2: because this isn't a case where a strange couple gets

418
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:01,840
Speaker 2: it's in a fight and there's a shoving match and

419
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,360
Speaker 2: she stumbles and hits her head and dies. Okay, this

420
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:11,000
Speaker 2: is a cold blooded, carefully plotted murder where he planned

421
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 2: it for prommonly months and did it in such a

422
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 2: cold fashion that it was reading about him and reading

423
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 2: what he did. One is when I write, I try

424
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 2: to empathize with the person I'm writing about, so I

425
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 2: can understand their decision making. It's the only way you

426
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 2: can understand what someone else is doing is try to

427
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,760
Speaker 2: understand how they feel. I could not put myself in

428
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 2: this guy's head. It was like this caused me to

429
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 2: raise a big question with all the psychiatrists I talk to,

430
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,479
Speaker 2: which is, are people who do what he did the

431
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,640
Speaker 2: same as everybody else, just at the edge of the spectrum,

432
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 2: or are they different? And I came to the conclusion

433
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,640
Speaker 2: that they're different. And I also learned from these psychiatrists

434
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:50,399
Speaker 2: that five percent of the population can be characterized as

435
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,359
Speaker 2: psychopaths and in a certain kind of life, with a

436
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,199
Speaker 2: certain kind of way. Maybe you never even know it.

437
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 2: They just seem a little old.

438
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,960
Speaker 1: They're running companies. Many of them are running companies. They

439
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 1: make very cold decisions, which is what you need when

440
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,360
Speaker 1: somebody runs a company to be efficient.

441
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 2: And maybe there's some evolutionary advantage to having these people

442
00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 2: at certain prices moments, like you know, war something I

443
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 2: don't know, but in your day to day life, it's

444
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:18,399
Speaker 2: not what you want in a partner, you know.

445
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 1: I've talked to people, and I was doing a story

446
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 1: about a woman I believe definitely had psychopathy, and I said,

447
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,800
Speaker 1: what's the difference. He's a researcher in psychopathy. I said,

448
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,639
Speaker 1: what's the difference between a male and a female? And

449
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 1: he said, a male psychopath will stab you, a female

450
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 1: psychopath will ruin your credit, and they'll take your identity

451
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 1: and steal everything from you, but they might not kill you.

452
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 1: And then of course there are the special people who

453
00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 1: will do both. But you know, I ask back to

454
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: kind of what you were saying about duelists, and you're

455
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,399
Speaker 1: feeling like he, you know, he feels like he's the

456
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 1: only real person and everybody else's like a chess piece.

457
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,159
Speaker 1: Katherine Ramslin has this great scene in one of her

458
00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: books when she's talking to Dennis Raider in prison, and

459
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,199
Speaker 1: she said, I need you to think and come up

460
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,120
Speaker 1: with some way to explain to me the way your

461
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 1: identity works and the way other people with psychopathy it works.

462
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,199
Speaker 1: And he came back with this paper cube, and on

463
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: each side was written some role in his life. So

464
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: he was like a you know, church deacon. I think

465
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,719
Speaker 1: he wrote that on one side he was a civil servant,

466
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: on another side father, you know, blah blah, and then

467
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 1: serial killer. And so he puts the cube down and

468
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: he starts flicking it and he says, I'm not grounded

469
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 1: in any of these I will just change who I

470
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 1: am based on the situation. And that's the way that

471
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 1: we are. There's nothing real, it's a facade, and you're

472
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 1: grafting on to other people's personalities depending on what they're

473
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,600
Speaker 1: asking for. But she said he was just flicking this thing. See.

474
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,879
Speaker 1: Now I can go to church and act fine, but

475
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: now tonight I want to go stalk to someone and

476
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: kill them. And I found that fascinating. I mean, we're

477
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: mostly grounded, you know. For me, I'm grounded in my

478
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 1: family more than anything else. But when you're not grounded

479
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: in anything, you know, of course you're going to see

480
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: people as objects.

481
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 2: You know. Well, it's interesting. Is made me think. There's

482
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 2: a book called Great Planes by Anne Fraser. That's one

483
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 2: of the books that made me want to be a

484
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 2: nonfiction writer instead of a fiction writer way back when.

485
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 2: And I'm just rereading it this summer. And he's talking

486
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 2: about somebody who committed a murder in Montana, like in

487
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies. And the guy said he killed somebody

488
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,719
Speaker 2: because he wanted to know what it felt like. And

489
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 2: somebody says, well, what did it feel like? And he says,

490
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 2: it felt like nothing, And it just gives you the shiver. Man,

491
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 2: That's what I feel like with Botus after he killed Jennifer.

492
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,399
Speaker 2: He gave this interview on Local NBC in Connecticut. He

493
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 2: has no emotion whatsoever, and his only thing at the

494
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 2: end when they ask him how he feels is he

495
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 2: feels he's being treated very unfairly by the state. Okay,

496
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: And the interviewer says, so, are you saying that you

497
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 2: got the work of this situation. You're the biggest victim,

498
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 2: and he said yes, And it didn't even occur to

499
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,199
Speaker 2: him that for his own good he should pretend to

500
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 2: care what happened to his wife because he couldn't know

501
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 2: that a normal person would care what happened to his wife.

502
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 2: But he can't, isn't He can't even pretend because he

503
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 2: doesn't know what in It feels like nothing. So this

504
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 2: situation where deal with somebody who doesn't follow the normal rules,

505
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 2: doesn't see people as real, is playing a game of chess.

506
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 2: You're just completely unprepared for it, because by definition, you're

507
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: just reading your humanity into them to see what they

508
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 2: would do, and that's just not going to work. And

509
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: one of the things is they've never found Jennifer's body. Okay,

510
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 2: So Potus Dulos, though he was so smart and did

511
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 2: all this stuff to hide his crime, he was actually underestimated.

512
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 2: The police That's another thing with psychopaths. They think they're

513
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 2: the smartest people in the world. He underestimated the police,

514
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: and he didn't understand the technology and the fact that

515
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,680
Speaker 2: he was basically on camera all day that whole day,

516
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: except for two times he's off camera for like an

517
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 2: hour in the morning in New king Connecticut and in

518
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,360
Speaker 2: the afternoon where he got rid of the evidence in Farmington, Connecticut.

519
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 2: So the police say he must have got rid of

520
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 2: her body in one of those two times when he

521
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 2: was off camera. So I was talking recently in one

522
00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 2: of the detectives and I said, I always assumed he

523
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 2: or did whatever he did in Nu Canaan, because how

524
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 2: do you put somebody, your wife's body in a car

525
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 2: and drive her fifty miles down public highway with cars

526
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 2: all around you would that's too scary. He could do it,

527
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 2: He's like he could do it. Yeah, he had no fear,

528
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 2: and he had no doubt that if he got pulled over,

529
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: he would just talk his way out of it.

530
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, she got drunk, she's passed out. Yeah, isn't that

531
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 1: amazing that people feel like that? I mean, I can't

532
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 1: even imagine somebody thinking like that. That's why the psychologist

533
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 1: I talked to said they fouled their own nest. Eventually,

534
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 1: they can't help it. They tripped themselves up because they

535
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: don't have their own identity. And you can only put

536
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: to I have a friend who says it, and maybe

537
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: this is a famous quote she stole this from. But

538
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: a man can only hold his breath for a year.

539
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 2: Uh huh. You know.

540
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: I tell my kids that get to know someone for

541
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 1: at least a year, at least a year to get

542
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: to know who they really are, because you can only

543
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: pretend you're not who you are for about a year.

544
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: Let's go back and you know, is it twenty seventeen

545
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: when this whole like wacko proposal Jennifer, you can stay

546
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: in the house, but Michael friend's going to move into Yeah.

547
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 2: I'm very bad with remembering years, but yes, that sounds right.

548
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: I think that's when they initiated the divorce, and that's

549
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: what I want to get to. So this is this

550
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: pivotal moment for Jennifer, who finally found that wine that

551
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: didn't need to be crossed?

552
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: Right?

553
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,479
Speaker 1: Does she fairly quickly after that say screw you, I'm

554
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: getting a divorce and then hire the attorney.

555
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: Well, I think first of all, she had this fantasy

556
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: of marriage, which is I call the dollhouse fantasy. And

557
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 2: she at first didn't want to give up on the marriage,

558
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 2: you know, that was like giving up on her dream.

559
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 2: And so there was a couple's therapy and all that,

560
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: and finally when this happened, she was living in the house.

561
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 2: She stayed in the house, she had everything sort of

562
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 2: on hold, and she but she was saying no to him,

563
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: and he started to ratchet up the pressure. I think

564
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 2: he thought that get to scare her. Basically, she'd always

565
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: just said yes, but now she's saying no, so she's

566
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 2: got he's got to move her to yes. To do that,

567
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 2: it's going to require some pressure. One thing he did

568
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: is he let his kids drive his car. Scare the

569
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 2: crap out.

570
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,160
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, they're all under seven, right.

571
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: Yes. He started doing more and more things like this,

572
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 2: and finally she took him aside and showed him that

573
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: he had purchased a gun. Showed her the gun, which

574
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: she took I think rightly as a threat. Okay, right

575
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,880
Speaker 2: after she saw the gun, she started making plans to leave.

576
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 2: But she knew that she had to do it, like

577
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 2: secretly and very carefully, because if you found out she

578
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: was going to leave, because with her, she would take

579
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: the money and everything else. He wanted still to have

580
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 2: the access to the money from her family. She hired

581
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: something which I lived in Connecticut all these years, I

582
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: didn't know this existed. They're moving companies that have unmarked

583
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,959
Speaker 2: vehicles for situations like this, so they could show up

584
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 2: and help you pack, and if the husband or the

585
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: wife or whatever stumbles upon the scene, it doesn't look

586
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: like a moving company. So he waited to a day.

587
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 2: The day that she knew, he'd be gone all day

588
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: at the waterski pond. I believe I think it was

589
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: Father's Day with this kid. She had this company with

590
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 2: the unmarked cars, packed up everything. She had told him

591
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: she was going to go stay with her mother in

592
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 2: Pound Ridge, New York, and then visit her father's grave

593
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: the next day. Father had died not that long before.

594
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: And she got with her nanny and two cars and

595
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,239
Speaker 2: all the kids and she left. And as soon as

596
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 2: she left, he started looking around and saw that everything

597
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 2: was gone, and he started to freak down. He called

598
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: the police, and we tried to get the police to

599
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 2: stop her and arrest her for taking his kids. And

600
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: that was the beginning, and she went to New Canaan,

601
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 2: where she'd sort of secretly rented a house, and the

602
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: next morning she went to a lawyer filed for divorce

603
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 2: and also filed for a restraining order, which she got.

604
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 2: Get it like an emergency basis. And it's interesting you

605
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 2: mentioned the timing is so important because just to go

606
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: back for a second, when he met her, there were

607
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 2: red flags that she either missed or willingly drove right

608
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,160
Speaker 2: through because she wanted to get where she wanted to get,

609
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,479
Speaker 2: which is she met him in the airport in Aspen.

610
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 2: He called her. They went on three days before she

611
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 2: did an internet search and realized he was already married. Okay,

612
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 2: so she confronted him and he sort of said, yeah,

613
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 2: but it's ending because I want to have kids, but

614
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 2: she's not. She doesn't okay. So, by the way, this

615
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: is the psychopath thing because one thing that told you

616
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: made me think of this because the holding breath for

617
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: a year, because he was really very good at figuring

618
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 2: out what the other person needs and becoming that thing,

619
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 2: whatever it was. And he knew right away that she

620
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: wanted to have kids and felt that she had to

621
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: do it quickly if she wanted to have a bunch

622
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 2: of kids. Yep. So she took what should have been

623
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: a disqualifying fact he was already married and turned it

624
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: into oh, here's somebody who really wants to kids right now.

625
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 2: He turned it into something that made him more rather

626
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: than less appealing. But she said, I will not date

627
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: you while you are married. So from that call he

628
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: was divorced within four months, and within four months of

629
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 2: that they were married, and within a month to that

630
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 2: they're in Connecticut. She's pregnant, you know. So it was

631
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 2: the speed, and at the end it was the same

632
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: way which he was done holding his breath. He would

633
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: stopped pretending to be what she wanted. She had the

634
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 2: kids and he now wanted this other life. And she

635
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 2: got out of there and did everything right. Because a

636
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: lot of people would say, well, she has all this money,

637
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: couldn't she blah blah blah blah blah blah. No, he answers.

638
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, there's nothing you can look at

639
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 2: and say she shouldn't she shouldn't have continued with him

640
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: when she thought out she was married. But at the end,

641
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: she did everything right. As soon as she saw that

642
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 2: he had gotten a gun. She made plans to leave.

643
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: She left in the right way, very carefully. She got

644
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 2: the kids enrolled in school in a new place. I mean,

645
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: she was incredibly efficient. She got him in a good house,

646
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 2: she got him in a new life. And then she

647
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 2: got a lawyer and started fighting this case. And that

648
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: case went through four hundred filings. Another thing is he

649
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 2: was obsessed with winning, right, he never could lose. And

650
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 2: he said to her during the during this whole thing,

651
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: if you come at me once, I'm going to come

652
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: back at you one hundred times carter. Early on, a

653
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: judge said and to them, basically, we're going to separate

654
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 2: these people, which is what you have to do in

655
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: these high concert situations. And you can see your kids,

656
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 2: but Michelle, the paramore can't be there, and you can't

657
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: mix them up with your with her kid. Okay, you

658
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: can maybe do that after the divorce. That's what the

659
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: divorce will be about. But until the divorce is final,

660
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: you're frozen in this state. So if you were a

661
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 2: normal person in him and you want to get into

662
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 2: another life, you think get through the divorce as quickly

663
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 2: as possible. Instead, he kept violating that order over and

664
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: over and over again and kept getting caught. And it

665
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: got to the point where he was having his kids

666
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: live for him. He was saying all this crazy stuff

667
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 2: for his kids to tell her, and they'd go to

668
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 2: the judge. And so you got almost four hundred of

669
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: these filings and you never even got to sort of

670
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: the starting slot of the divorce.

671
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: Four hundred filings. That's incredible. Yeah, and I know that

672
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: this turns into like the divorce of the century for Connecticut.

673
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: When you were talking about him doing all of this stuff,

674
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: I was thinking, that's the risk taking. I mean, you know,

675
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: it's not jumping off of buildings, but having your kids lie,

676
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 1: saying things where you know you're going to get caught.

677
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: You know, these are all things that just don't occur

678
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: to people sometimes, you know, when your sole focus is

679
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: to ruin the other person who you think is ruining you.

680
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 2: Right, And to me, one of the big moments, because

681
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 2: I was looking at the court documents, is he has

682
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: a lawyer. Keith fires a lawyer because lawyer isn't aggressive enough.

683
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 2: He decides to represent himself, okay, and he puts Jennifer

684
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 2: on the stand under OAH and cross examined her rutally okay,

685
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 2: which it's amazing to me that it's even allowed to happen. Okay,

686
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: And he is trying to beat her into a confession.

687
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: But what's her to confess? You realize as you're listening

688
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: to him, he wants her to confess that he is

689
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: the better parent. Ultimately, then he calls himself to the

690
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,719
Speaker 2: stand and he does something I've only ever seen once before,

691
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 2: and it was the Winny Allen movie Bananas, which is

692
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 2: he cross examines himself, which if you're a writer writing this,

693
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 2: you want to see what he thinks of himself, because

694
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: he basically gives it soliloquy of his own sorry state

695
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 2: and all the things that happened to him and Helen

696
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 2: fergus Is from the stand, but it became another playing field.

697
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 2: And this was a guy who I would say he

698
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: was a chauvinist. Okay, So he was a misogynist and

699
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,240
Speaker 2: he didn't like women to have any control. He felt

700
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 2: that they should not be in control. And he winds

701
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: up in a situation where he's trying to win. He's

702
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 2: in court and he's going up against who his wife is,

703
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 2: mother in law, and the judge all women and he's losing,

704
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: and it's so emasculating. It's like it's intolerable. You can

705
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 2: just see this scheme building up. It's intolerable. He also

706
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 2: had a weird thing about Jewish people where he thought

707
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 2: Jewish people were like he wouldn't he would let his

708
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 2: son see a psychiatrist, but it couldn't be a Jewish psychiatrist.

709
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 2: He said this stuff publicly and on the record because

710
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 2: he believed that June would necessarily side with other Jews.

711
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 2: So now he's in a situation where it's not only women,

712
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 2: but it's a bunch of Jewish women, and to him,

713
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 2: it's just like topsy turbudum. And to me, one of

714
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 2: the craziest realizations I had is one of the things

715
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 2: you can't figure out is Okay, he killed her, he

716
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 2: inside to kill her, but why didn't do it when

717
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: he did it? Like what was the trigger? And there

718
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 2: were a lot of possible triggers. But the court had

719
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 2: hired a psychiatrist to write sort of a report on

720
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: the whole marriage, and the psychiatrist missed the field, so

721
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: we don't know what it says. The part of it

722
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 2: leap the psychiatrist seemed to come down on his side

723
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 2: and to say human being mistreated and Jennifer was addicted

724
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: to the conflict and would never give in because this

725
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 2: was her way of keeping Photus in her life. Was

726
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: the divorce. So he gets this report. The question is

727
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: why the guy said that. I think because Photus is

728
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 2: a charming psychopath was able to calm this guy. But whatever.

729
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,240
Speaker 2: But it seems to me that weirdly that was the trigger,

730
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: because it's like, here was an official saying, you're right,

731
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 2: you are being mistreated. She does deserve to die. He

732
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: needed that little bit of outside affirmation to sort of

733
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 2: be the green light to set his plan in action.

734
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: So they hadn't even gotten into the divorce. They were

735
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: still battling it. Right, did they have a prenup or

736
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 1: where did he get this money from if she's cut

737
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: him off because it comes from her inheritance and from

738
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: her mother.

739
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 2: Well, there was no free up and she had definitely

740
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 2: more expensive lawyers than him. And there wasn't just the lawyers,

741
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 2: like for example, there was a guardian ad litem, which

742
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,760
Speaker 2: is like basically some of the court of points succeeded

743
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 2: the interest of the kids. That person had to be

744
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 2: has to be paid by the couple, as in all cases,

745
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: they said they would split that s faate. He never paid.

746
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 2: She paid for him, and then he said, you can't

747
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 2: trust the guardian because how can you trust anybody that

748
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 2: she pays for? So it was like a crazy Joseph

749
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 2: Heller asked catch twenty two kind of thing. He had

750
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 2: a lot of money in his houses, and it turns

751
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 2: out later that most of these houses and property were

752
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: secured by loans and property given to him by Hillard Farber.

753
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 2: But for time it was enough for him to bankroll

754
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 2: this thing. And one of the theories for his motive

755
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: in the end is his mother in law obviously stopped

756
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 2: giving him money and then sued him to get back

757
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 2: the money they had went and he had lost that case,

758
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 2: and he didn't even own his own house. And at

759
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 2: the end the thought it's one possible motive is his

760
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 2: kids had trust funds, and Jennifer controlled the trust funds.

761
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 2: But if he became the sole remaining parent because they

762
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 2: were not divorced, he would control the trust funds and

763
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 2: that would be the money that would get him out

764
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 2: of his jam. So one reason possibly take Jennifer off

765
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:43,719
Speaker 2: the board was to get control of the kids and

766
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: get control of the money. So money was a constant

767
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: thing in this like it always is. But I think

768
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: he thought he had enough to get through the divorce

769
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: and then he'd maybe be able to get to some

770
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:54,880
Speaker 2: of the money that first kids.

771
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: Friends of the couple, where did they fall on all

772
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 1: of this? Everybody say with Jennifer, you.

773
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 2: Know a group of guys who went to Brown Photus

774
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: chipped in and paid his bail the first time he

775
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 2: was arrested, and they did it like in a sporting

776
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: betting way, which is half of them believed he couldn't

777
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 2: have done this, which is like a lot of people

778
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 2: think there's no way he would have done this, and

779
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,919
Speaker 2: then half thought maybe he could have done this. So

780
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 2: the bail in the end, they decided would be paid

781
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,439
Speaker 2: by the people who lost that bet when they figured

782
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 2: out if he did it or not. So that's about

783
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,439
Speaker 2: the extent of Photus. His friends. Mostly they lay low.

784
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 2: They wouldn't talk to me, or they talked to me

785
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 2: off the record, because nobody wanted to be associated with

786
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: this person after the crime, because it's like being associated

787
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: with Ted Bundy or something, not putting them at the

788
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy level, but being we don't want to be

789
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: associated with him. Jennifer's friends, they were very critical, obviously

790
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 2: a photus, and a lot of the people from earlier

791
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 2: in life she cut off. She stopped talking to them

792
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 2: for many years. But the few people that she did

793
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 2: talk to were all deeply suspicious of Potus from the

794
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 2: very beginning. And it's the kind of thing where when

795
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 2: they got married and very fancy wedding on the Upper

796
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: East Side of New York, people are sitting around saying,

797
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: other than the fact that he's really great looking, why

798
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: is Jennifer marrying this guy. It's a kind of wedding

799
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 2: you go to and you can't figure it out. And

800
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 2: the reason was because she wanted them kids very quickly.

801
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 2: But one of her friends said to me, you know,

802
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:17,399
Speaker 2: she was complaining to him and telling it. She's telling

803
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: everybody how dangerous he was, you know, how he could

804
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: kill her. And he sort of said, well, then you

805
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: need to like end the divorce because you need to

806
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: get away from him, because like, if he's really that dangerous,

807
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 2: stop engaging with them completely. But there was no way

808
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: to get to the next part of her life except

809
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: through some kind of contact, and that was kind of

810
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 2: the terrible position she was in.

811
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: So take me to the moment when people realize that

812
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 1: she has gone gone and not coming back. And I'm

813
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: sure there's a debate of did she just want to

814
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: take off because she's scared of him? I mean that's

815
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: a valid explanation. She's kind of going into hiding, leaving

816
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 1: her kids behind. What are the circumstances, where are we

817
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: in time when that happens.

818
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 2: Well, her good friends immediately went happened. They've known about photos,

819
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 2: they knew him. Several of them said, sinking, feeling my stomach.

820
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: It's voted, vote has killed him. So then I think

821
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 2: the police probably thought that too, because in a case

822
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 2: like this, it's almost always been a noble divorce, it's

823
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: almost always thought the defense. When he got a defense

824
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 2: lawyer later, they wanted to give this idea, Well, maybe

825
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: she ran away, you know, because that bad psych report

826
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 2: which I mentioned was going to hurt her case, and

827
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 2: she ran away and baked her own death in some

828
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 2: way or something to pray him. Her lawyer said this

829
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 2: in court, and he likened it to the book Gone Girl,

830
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 2: and he called it the Gone Girl defense. The question

831
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: for the police was they needed It's very hard to

832
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 2: prove a murder without a body, and the reason for

833
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: that is it's obvious, which is, what if you convict somebody?

834
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 2: What if you execute somebody and the dead person turns

835
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: out actually to be a lot And it sounds crazy,

836
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 2: but it has happened seven times in American history that

837
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 2: somebody has been convicted for murder and the person turned

838
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: up alive later. So you know that if they bring

839
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,439
Speaker 2: a a conviction of a person when there's nobody, it's

840
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: got to be a very, very very strong case. The

841
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,959
Speaker 2: police needed a little bit of luck and they got

842
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 2: it because again Fotus thought he was smarter than everybody

843
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 2: and made a series of super interesting mistakes early in

844
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: the police investigation. So one thing he did was, first

845
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 2: of all, the police call him the Knight that she

846
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 2: disappears that night, and he has no interest in what happened,

847
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 2: or he doesn't care, which is like he should pretend

848
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 2: he's interested in but it's chilling. He doesn't know, he

849
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 2: doesn't care about what happened, or the mist would happen

850
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 2: because he knows what happened. The police asked him to

851
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: come by the police station the next day to help them.

852
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 2: He's not a suspect. At this point, they want his

853
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,959
Speaker 2: help finding Jennifer. He shows up like three hours late,

854
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 2: which seems crazy. He shows up wisely with the lawyer,

855
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 2: not wisely with the wrong kind of lawyer. He shows

856
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 2: up with a divorce lawyer when he needs is a

857
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 2: criminal lawyer. Okay. The lawyer somehow had its phone, maybe

858
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 2: left in the car, hands Photus his phone in front

859
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: of the cops. The cop says, is that your phone?

860
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 2: Photos says yes. The cop says, can I see it?

861
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: Photos hands on the phone. The guy opens the phone

862
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 2: and says, what's your security code? Otis tells him, by

863
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: the way, the code is zero zero zero zero. And

864
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 2: the lawyer says, hey, you can't look at his phone.

865
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,760
Speaker 2: You needn't warrant. And the cop says, I'm not looking

866
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 2: at it. I'm putting in an airplane mode to lock it

867
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: down until we get a warrant. Okay. Photus on the

868
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 2: day of the murderer, that left that phone in his

869
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 2: house in Farmington, knowing the police will look at the phone,

870
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,760
Speaker 2: sneething was in Farmington and that would give him an alibi.

871
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: He also had a friend who reesed call that phone,

872
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 2: and that phone answered by his paramore is mistress Michelle Traconis.

873
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 2: So looked like he had a phone call on that

874
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,760
Speaker 2: phone in Farmington. He killed Jennifer. He went back to Farmington.

875
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 2: He just put all this evidence in bags, put the

876
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 2: bags in his own car, then drive back to his

877
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: own house where he grabs his phone. Okay, which is

878
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 2: almost like a jo of like Americans can't be without

879
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 2: their phone. He takes his phone, He puts his phone

880
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 2: in his pocket. He goes down to a very rough

881
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 2: neighborhood of Hartford, Connecticut, not where he lives, and throws

882
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 2: this garbage out in dumpsters down there. When the police

883
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: look at the phone, yes, he's in a Farmington all day,

884
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:18,840
Speaker 2: but hey, why at the end of the day it

885
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 2: is seen down in this bad neighborhood in Hartford. So

886
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 2: they call the state police and say, do you have

887
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 2: any cameras down there? And Photus I think thinks there

888
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 2: will be no cameras because it's a bad area and

889
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 2: the police don't care about it. In fact, it's just

890
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: covered in cameras because they're trying to break a crime.

891
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 2: Leave down there. You get the footage, and the footage

892
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 2: shows Potus and the shell and photus his car driving

893
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: slowly down the road, throwing out garbage in various dumpsters,

894
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 2: including a FedEx package which they shove in the storm drain,

895
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: and then the police go the next week and get that,

896
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: and that is the evidence that you then see prosecutors

897
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 2: hold up in court when Michel Terconas is on trial.

898
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,920
Speaker 2: So that was very stupid. Took up his phone, and

899
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: it was very stupid to show up without the right

900
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 2: kind of lawyer, and it was very stupid to be late.

901
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 2: It was very stupid to give them the security boat.

902
00:44:10,280 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: All those things foul their own nest. It can't help it.

903
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,759
Speaker 1: What is the working theory about what actually happened? He

904
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: strangled her, dismembered her, put her, I mean, where would

905
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: she be?

906
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 2: Well, I always thought it's just horrible to talk about. Okay,

907
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 2: they found in the evidence zip tize bloody zip tized,

908
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 2: so as the comps said, you don't really have to

909
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 2: zip tize somebody that's dead. So the thought is he

910
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 2: zip tied her when she was alive, So who knows

911
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 2: what he did to her? And he did not shoot her.

912
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 2: They never found it, but there was footage from that

913
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 2: scene in Hertford told me about where somebody pulls a

914
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 2: knife out of the garbage, which they then traded. Okay,

915
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,399
Speaker 2: so they never found the knife, but there it is

916
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 2: on camera, so he thought did he stabbed her? Another

917
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 2: thing he messed up at is he did not realize

918
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 2: the amount of blood in a person's body. She basically

919
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: bled out in the garage. He then I had to

920
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 2: take all these paper towels and Jennifer stuff to clean

921
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 2: it up and put it in halfne bags. And the

922
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 2: question is I always thought that he hid her body

923
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 2: close to the house. Some people from that I've spoken

924
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 2: to from New Canaan police and stuff suggests another person

925
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 2: might have come from Greece and helped him dispose of

926
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: her body, taking the body off his hands, in which

927
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,399
Speaker 2: case the peace will never find it because they're only

928
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 2: looking along the area where he's on camera. You get

929
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 2: out a mile into the woods. It would have to

930
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 2: just be dumb luck that they would find her body.

931
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 2: Talking to the police again more recently in the course

932
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 2: of my book tour, and maybe think maybe she is

933
00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: buried somewhere up near where they lived in Farmington, because

934
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 2: he's steal icy enough. They've taken her up there and

935
00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 2: they lived right next to them was this big forested

936
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 2: area many acres beside a reservoir where they used to

937
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 2: ride bikes and stuff. So she might be buried in there.

938
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,439
Speaker 2: And the thought is that she might have been dismembered

939
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 2: and buried in various places in there. It's just a

940
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: question of what you believe, like the importance of finding

941
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,720
Speaker 2: the body, which is the police I've spoken to actually

942
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 2: said maybe it's better not to find the body at

943
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 2: this point, like to let people keel rather than bringing

944
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 2: this all up to the present tense, because finding the

945
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: body will allow them to answer questions about what happened,

946
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 2: but it will raise probably more questions than it answers.

947
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,760
Speaker 2: But other people that expoming to believe that the crime

948
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 2: until the body is found, the crime is in some

949
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 2: sense still happening. Yeah.

950
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: I was thinking about what you were saying about somebody

951
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,919
Speaker 1: from Greece or anybody else coming in and taking care

952
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: of the body. And I was thinking about a case

953
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,839
Speaker 1: that I had read about with geofencing. Had you dig

954
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 1: into that at all? No, So, you know how photos

955
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: was an idiot and they could track them different places

956
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: and stuff. But with geofencing, and I don't think you

957
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: can retroactively do it. But what they could do is

958
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 1: draw an area around their house, Jennifer's house, and at

959
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: a certain time, they can you know, they can go

960
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: back and look at these times and find out what

961
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: cell phones were there at the time. Yeah, wouldn't work

962
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: on somebody who's smart enough to turn off their phones

963
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: and then go commit a crime. But if you're at

964
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: a party and you didn't a fight with some guy

965
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: and you stab them and then you take off, they

966
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: would interview everybody at the party because they would have

967
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 1: all of their sop phones at that one particular location.

968
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 2: Right.

969
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: So I think that would be really interesting and a

970
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: good application of that is there an accomplice who shows

971
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 1: up that there's just so off the radar. At least

972
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: you'd be able to see if there was some contact.

973
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 1: But let's just me fantasizing about some solution here.

974
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: You know. I kept thinking about remember this case that

975
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 2: this woman Sean for Lady was murdered in Rock Creek Parkway.

976
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: I lived in Modesto for four months reporting on that case.

977
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 1: That's where she was from, Meso, California.

978
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so they were looking for her body in

979
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: Rock Creek Parkway and several years later and they never

980
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 2: found it. Several years later, somebody found it like ten

981
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 2: see the way from where they'd been looking, which just

982
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 2: shows you if she was buried myland of the Woods.

983
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: And that's something like geofensing like you're talking about. For me,

984
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 2: there was a hugely enlightening thing that happened in my

985
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 2: town in Richfield, Connecticut, which is somebody was a couple

986
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 2: of years ago expanding their basement and they discovered a corpse,

987
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 2: a body, so they called the police, stay freaked out.

988
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 2: The police came and said, we think this is old.

989
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:07,879
Speaker 2: We have to call him like somebody else, and they

990
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 2: called him the state, and the state started digging and

991
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 2: they discovered basically nine bodies a mass grave, and it

992
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 2: turned out that they were British soldiers from a mass

993
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 2: grave from the Revolutionary War in the Battle of Ridgefield.

994
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 2: And these were people buried right at basement level, right

995
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 2: under main Street, in the middle of town, like not

996
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 2: in some far away place, and unless somebody happened to

997
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 2: dig there, they just sat there for whatever two hundred

998
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,400
Speaker 2: and fifteen years. We forget because everywhere we go is stores,

999
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 2: roads and everything. But the world is still a very,

1000
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 2: very very big and we're very very very small.

1001
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 1: Tell me, I mean, I am very curious about Michelle

1002
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: in general. Why don't we get to kind of the

1003
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: end of the story and where we are when photos

1004
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: does what he does and then here's Michelle, his girlfriend,

1005
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: just like left hanging out to draw. Here is the

1006
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,280
Speaker 1: only one left out of this whole freaking mess.

1007
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 2: So killing himself turns out to be incredibly cowardly because

1008
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,800
Speaker 2: there's a whole mechanism estate that needs someone to be punished,

1009
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 2: and her only play, the only move she has, is

1010
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: to sort of turn against Photus and testify against him.

1011
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 2: But he takes that away from her. So everybody this

1012
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 2: guid's dealt with. He screwed. Everybody can de with. Every

1013
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 2: woman dealt with he wrecked her life. Okay, So whatever

1014
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: you think of Michelle, he wrecked her life and meeting

1015
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 2: him was the worst thing that ever happened here. And

1016
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 2: we don't know the extent of her involvement. We know

1017
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 2: that she seeming was very involved with disposing of evidence

1018
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 2: and giving an alibi and helping him in all these ways.

1019
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 2: If I were her and I were her lawyer, I

1020
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,240
Speaker 2: would say, present yourself as the second victim because you say, Okay,

1021
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 2: she's the paramour, But Jennifer was the paramour. Remember I

1022
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:45,760
Speaker 2: told you that Jennifer started dating him. He was already married,

1023
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 2: you know, and she should say, listen, if we ended

1024
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 2: up together ten years down the line, this could be me.

1025
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,439
Speaker 2: The case in court was so strong against her that

1026
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 2: it just seemed like the jury could do nothing except

1027
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 2: find her guilty. So I think that he left her

1028
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 2: to take the full weight of the case against him,

1029
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 2: and she did take it. And this was a guy

1030
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 2: who went around ruining people's lives. He ruined Jennifer's life

1031
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 2: first and foremost. He ruined Michelle's life, and she cooperated

1032
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 2: in her own room. Let's say anybody did do his kids,

1033
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,720
Speaker 2: I mean, left his kids with the worst imaginable legacy.

1034
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: What is there for them? And their mother killed by

1035
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 2: their father, their father kills themselves, so they never really

1036
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 2: even know what happened. So when Michelle went to prison,

1037
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 2: I was being sentenced. I went to court, and the

1038
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 2: kids got up and spoke, and their whole thing was,

1039
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 2: we want to know what happened, like we want to

1040
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 2: know what actually happened, because everything is speculation. There were

1041
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 2: only two people actually there and they're both dead, you know,

1042
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 2: and so he took that away from his kids too.

1043
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,839
Speaker 1: What does she say, is she saying anything at all?

1044
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 2: She's saying she's innocent, that her only prime is she

1045
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 2: fell in love with the wrong person, you know what.

1046
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,760
Speaker 2: I think that she probably doesn't know where Jennifer's buried,

1047
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 2: or she would have already given that up because that's

1048
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 2: her only way out. I think that's why. I think

1049
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,360
Speaker 2: that maybe he had help and handed it off, and

1050
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 2: maybe at the end even he didn't know where she

1051
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 2: was theared.

1052
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 1: So this is a plea deal, or she goes to trial.

1053
00:51:05,040 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 1: It sounds like she.

1054
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 2: Went to trial, she was convicted.

1055
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:09,720
Speaker 1: That does not seem smart.

1056
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, she sends to fourteen years, and she's already served

1057
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 2: a bunch of times fourteen years, you know, and then

1058
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 2: there's already the time she's served. So she put it

1059
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 2: all together, it's like twenty years.

1060
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: She'll go up for parole, right, and she'll have to

1061
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: admit culpability essentially, right, I mean, doesn't she have to

1062
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: admit remorse?

1063
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 2: Well, I was talking about this because she's in the

1064
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,000
Speaker 2: middle of an online campaign and I know this because

1065
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 2: I'm a target of it. And I don't know who

1066
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 2: it's being run by. But she's innocent that everyone's lying

1067
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:39,839
Speaker 2: about her, that the prosecution told a lie that you know,

1068
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 2: and they have to explain away all the very creating

1069
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 2: information against her. And the problem with that is when

1070
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 2: she does come up for parole, it doesn't look like

1071
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 2: that all that will be against her. I think, like

1072
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,839
Speaker 2: she never admitted it, she never accepted responsibility, you know.

1073
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 2: And again here's somebody else who's painting the whole story.

1074
00:51:57,760 --> 00:51:58,800
Speaker 2: Is she's the victim.

1075
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: So the moral of this, if there is a moral,

1076
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: and I don't know if there is a moral, but

1077
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 1: we go back to the title of your book, which

1078
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: is Murder in the Dollhouse. Does this take you back

1079
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: to Jennifer, who on the outside has this beautiful, large family,

1080
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: this really you know, good looking husband who seems to

1081
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 1: be doing well in business, and supportive family and you

1082
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: know all of that and it's a facade. Clearly. Is

1083
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 1: that sort of what the message was to the people

1084
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: in Connecticut, you know, about their own society.

1085
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 2: Perhaps I mean for me personally, because I consider myself

1086
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 2: when the people in Connecticut, you want to take something,

1087
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 2: you can make something positive out of Connecticut is a

1088
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 2: very beautiful place, very beautiful beautiful house is. It's just

1089
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 2: a gorgeous place. And these houses and you think you

1090
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 2: understand what's going on and lessons you never really know

1091
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 2: what's going on in someone else's house, and you never

1092
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 2: really know what's going on in somebody else's life. And

1093
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,239
Speaker 2: you should have sympathy for other people, okay, because you

1094
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 2: don't really know what's going on. And the story is,

1095
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 2: help people as much as you can because they really

1096
00:52:58,200 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 2: need it.

1097
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 1: My kid and I will drive around in wealthier areas,

1098
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: and you know, she went on all the cars and

1099
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: the large houses and kind of how how blessed these

1100
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,919
Speaker 1: people are. And I'm saying, you don't know who owns

1101
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 1: that house, who knows how people are leveraged around here?

1102
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: And if you're relying on appearances, oftentimes those appearances are

1103
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,879
Speaker 1: not real and they'll fail. And you know, you come

1104
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 1: back to that. So I feel so awful for Jennifer

1105
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: and for her family. What do you know, just sort

1106
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,760
Speaker 1: of as a final thing, what's happening with the kids

1107
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 1: who ended up raising them? I mean what they were

1108
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:30,360
Speaker 1: all under.

1109
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 2: Ten kids are basically being raised by the nanny. Mostly

1110
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:36,800
Speaker 2: the nanny and the grandmother. They're doing I mean, considering

1111
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 2: the situation, they're doing very well good And one lucky thing,

1112
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,359
Speaker 2: if you call anything lucky, is they have each other.

1113
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 3: So I knew that when my own when my mother died,

1114
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 3: I felt like nobody in the world going through except

1115
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 3: my brother and my sister, and you'd like cling to

1116
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 3: them at that moment, and they have that.

1117
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 2: So that is something you just hope in the best.

1118
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 2: And this is their life. I don't have to say,

1119
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 2: except you know, the money thing. It's like sometimes money

1120
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 2: is more trouble than it's worth. And you know, you

1121
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 2: can only be in one room aute time anyway, you know.

1122
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because when I was going through the case,

1123
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 2: Fotus had a lot of complaints about the divorce system

1124
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 2: and how he's being treated unfairly, and some of his

1125
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 2: complaints ring kind of true because some of her behavior

1126
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 2: seems like a little crazy, that's how he was putting it,

1127
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 2: like her intense nervousness seems crazy until you know that

1128
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,760
Speaker 2: he killed her, and then all her warnings were correct,

1129
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,400
Speaker 2: and everybody who told her she was acting kind of crazy,

1130
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 2: we're wrong. And basically you realize that what's missing from

1131
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 2: all these legal documents is her fear, which is the

1132
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,399
Speaker 2: whole thing, you know. And when I'm talking about people

1133
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 2: that are rich, we're talking about this happened before the divorce.

1134
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 2: For the last five three four years of her life.

1135
00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 2: This woman, with all this money and all this talent

1136
00:54:55,360 --> 00:55:00,760
Speaker 2: and looks and physical gifts, was terrified. And there's nothing

1137
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,840
Speaker 2: worse than living in fear. Twenty four hours to be

1138
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 2: fear that's inside your own house.

1139
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1140
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners, All Bow, The

1141
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock, and

1142
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: Don't Forget. There are twelve seasons of my historical true

1143
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

1144
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

1145
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

1146
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 1: is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This

1147
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer,

1148
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 1: artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen

1149
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 1: Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and

1150
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more.

1151
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 1: And if you know of a historical crime that could

1152
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,640
Speaker 1: use some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked,

1153
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:13,000
Speaker 1: email us at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. We'll

1154
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:16,320
Speaker 1: also take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked

1155
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:16,800
Speaker 1: Words