WEBVTT - Audible Frustration: C, ME, ETF 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:07.200 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:12.240 Two things. I'm wearing glasses you are, which does not 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.160 matter to our listeners. I kind of feel like I 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:16.200 am wearing a costume. 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.280 I don't know, totally different person wearing feels like it. 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:21.560 The other point that I wanted to make is that 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:23.680 I'll be wearing these glasses at a party tonight. 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:25.880 A party, Yeah, specific party. 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:29.160 No, at your party. I'm going to your party. 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.279 Party having Yeah, I'm hofually stopping by my party. The 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:33.880 time this airs, the party will have happened. 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:39.640 That's true, soup, Yeah, exactly. Things go dramatically south. This 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:41.479 will not be included in the podcast, but if you're 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:42.920 hearing it, assumed that it went well and we had 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:43.480 a great time. 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:44.800 It was great. What a great party. 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:47.519 This is sort of a birthday party, right in that 0:00:47.600 --> 0:00:49.440 sense for money Stuff, which turned ten years old. 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.720 Right, it's not my birthday, not even really, money says 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:54.600 Earth there. It's just like a month ago. And even 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:56.960 that is like the accounting is a little fuzzy. But 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:00.280 we're going to say it's the tenth anniversary of money Stuff. Yeah, 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:04.640 sh anniversary observed, anniversary party. What a great time it 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:09.319 has been. Hello, and welcome to the Money Stuff Podcast. 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.160 You're a weekly podcast where we talk about stuff related 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:16.240 to money. I'm Matt Levin and I write the Money 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:17.760 Stuff column for Bloomberg Opinion. 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:20.440 And I'm Katie Greifeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:21.920 an anchor for Bloomberg Television. 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:24.479 What are you talking about today, Katie? 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:27.760 The Fattest Fingers in the World twenty three and me 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:31.680 and Wheaton, Illinois, Wheaton, Illinois. 0:01:31.760 --> 0:01:33.360 I have a funness for whet In Illinois because I 0:01:33.400 --> 0:01:35.760 have a wheatened tarrier. But oh, that's not really really 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:41.200 at all. No, never mind, all right, fat fingers. 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:44.440 Yeah, man, what is going on over at City Group? 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:45.400 It seems incredible. 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:47.720 Yeah, I don't know. Like City Group has had a 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.600 series of like very public and very comical, like mistaken 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:55.600 payments of which the greatest, honestly was a few years 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:58.560 ago in twenty twenty they sent out nine hundred million 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:00.800 dollars to some hedge funds and they're like, sorry, we 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:02.680 didn't mean to do that. In hutch Ones we're keeping it, 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.520 and there's a court case peal that was great. But 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:07.800 recently there's been reporting on like a couple of times 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.480 last year, they sent out like extremely comical mistake and payments, 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:14.760 but they got those back. That was fine. That was 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.079 like a typo. It was like in one case they 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:20.639 meant to pay two hundred and eighty dollars to some 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:23.320 customers ask crow account like theyk in Brazil, and they 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:28.480 put in eighty one trillion dollars, which is much much 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.640 more money than the City group has. So you can't 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:34.320 do that. But you know, it's not like then the 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.000 money left and like the customer fled. It's like they 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.000 reversed the payment like the next day, and they told 0:02:40.080 --> 0:02:42.239 regulators it was a near miss. So they had some 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:45.680 near a near miss. It's an internal transfer right like 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:49.040 on cities books and records. They briefly credited the customer 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.320 with eighty one trillion dollars. We like the money left 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:53.400 the bank and then they took it back the next day. 0:02:53.720 --> 0:02:56.919 So you know, City has gotten grief from regulators about 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:00.760 like it's systems and processes and techno, and it's been 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.880 sort of like understandably. So yeah, it's been like trying 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:05.920 to kind of turn the page and be like we're 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:09.639 really good at not making mistake in payments. So when 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:13.200 they very publicly make or almost make mistaken payments, and 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.919 when they are very comically large, that's embarrassing for them. 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.240 It like sort of puts them in an ill light 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.160 with regulators. But they it's not like they lost eighty 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:24.280 one trillion dollars would amazing. 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:26.959 Well, there was eighty one trillion dollars, which was amazing 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:30.720 in and of itself. That actually made the six trillion 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:33.919 dollar fat finger that came six billion the next day. 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:37.720 The next day, Bloomer reported on a six billion dollar 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:41.080 mistake and transfer that they had actually done like a 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:43.600 week before the eighty one trillion dollar one. So like 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:46.200 they had this private wealth customer. They had to send 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:48.920 this customer, my impression is like a few million dollars, 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:54.920 but they typed the account number into the amount field. 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:57.520 So instead of typing like three million dollars, they typed 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:01.800 ten digit account number began with the six, and they 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:04.600 sent six billion dollars to this customer instead of a 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.360 few million dollars. And then again quickly discovered that it 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:09.080 was a mistake and took it back and it was 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:11.560 all fine, but you know, it's like it's a near miss. 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:13.840 They had to report it to regulators and the Bloomberg 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.320 story reported that the head of wealth management, who like 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:17.320 kind of just started. 0:04:17.040 --> 0:04:19.040 It, provoked audible frustr vote. 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.680 Audible frustration, which is a great way to describe swearing. 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.919 But so they were pretty sad about that until like 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.520 a week later when they did the eighty one trillion 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:31.680 dollars things, and they're like, ah, six billion is nothing, 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:33.040 not so bad. 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:35.400 I tweeted a joke that, you know, a great way 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:37.520 to make this stop happening is just not let city 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:40.360 get the money back, and several people brought up Revlon 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:41.960 that they tried, they really didn't. 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:43.800 Get the money. Well, they did, but they could. 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.640 I actually forget how Revlon ended. I remember the headline 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:48.360 they got. 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.719 The money back. They did. So Revlin was interesting because 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:53.919 first of all, it wasn't an internal transfer. They actually 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:56.320 sent the money out of a bank right to people's 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.480 accounts at other banks. But secondly, like the accidental payment 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.520 was like part of an actual intended transaction that was 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:05.200 a sort of aggressive debt restructuring by Revlon that was 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:08.039 like basically hosing some of its creditors, and so the 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:12.000 creditors who were getting hosed randomly got nine hundred million 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.400 dollars and we were like, sweet, we're keeping this. And 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:15.800 then City's like no, no, I have to go back and 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.120 they're like nope, we're not giving back because like you 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.720 were trying to restructure this debt in a way that 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.039 was bad for creditors, and so they sued or they 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:25.279 kept the money and City sued them and they defeended 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:27.840 themselves saying we were actually owed this money because like 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.120 they were, the money is not right then and City 0:05:31.160 --> 0:05:33.679 made the payment on behalf of Revlon and we're keeping 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.280 it and they actually won in the trial court, but 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:38.120 then it was her first on appeal. It was like 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:40.080 the right answer. But yeah, it was like fun for all. 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.320 So we weren't around when Revlon happens. But I was 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.200 trying to remember, why have we discussed City fat fingers 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:48.880 on this podcast before? And then I reminded of a 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.760 different type of fat finger incident that was uncovered back 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:55.360 in May. Do you remember that fat finger stock trade 0:05:55.560 --> 0:06:00.000 were fined by the UK like sixty two million years 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.120 if you round up. In that situation, a trader had 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:05.240 intended to sell a basket of equities that was valued 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:07.719 at fifty eight million dollars but made an error while 0:06:07.720 --> 0:06:10.880 inputting that value, and as a result, the basket was 0:06:10.880 --> 0:06:14.040 actually valued at four hundred and forty four billion dollars 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:15.880 being created instead. 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:18.080 So this is the thing. All these things, it's like 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:22.520 screens with like a big box with like seventy five 0:06:22.520 --> 0:06:25.760 different fields. You can fill in different fields. So if 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:27.880 you want to sell fifty eight million dollars worth of stock, 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:29.760 there's some field that's like sell fifty eight million dollars. 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:31.480 If you want to sell fifty eight million shares, there's 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.560 a different field that's like sell this many shares. And 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:35.960 this person, I think, put like the dollar number in 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.080 the shares field, so like the shares are worth like 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:40.720 hundreds of dollars, and so you multiply the amount by 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:45.080 hundreds of dollars. But it was just like going fast 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.120 in a complicated interface and just put it in the 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:49.799 wrong box. Same thing with the account number person who 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.239 put the six billion account number into the amount field 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:55.400 and sent out six billion dollars. It's just like there's 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:56.480 too many things on the screen. 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.520 Well, if I had prepped better for this podcast, I 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:01.640 would have gone back and listen to the episode we 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:04.839 recorded in May, because I recall fuzzly that at the 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.680 time we talked about how there were a bunch of 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:09.600 warnings that popped up, at least when it came to 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:10.400 the stock trade. 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:11.800 There are too many. 0:07:11.960 --> 0:07:13.480 There are too many, and you kind of get numb 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:15.640 and you just click down. How do you fix this? 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.560 It seems to happen uniquely often at City, so I 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:23.520 don't know if their processes differ greatly from some of 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:24.160 their peers. 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:26.560 One thing they seem to have done is like this 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:29.000 is in the six billion dollar story, the wealth management 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:31.920 group has a new set of Actually I think the 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:33.560 whole firm has a new set of warnings, where like 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.680 there's some threshold of like large anomalist transfer, where like 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.840 someone not pressing the button gets an alert. Like the 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.200 head of wealth management gets like, hey, we're sending six 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:45.760 billion dollars to someone for no reason. 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:48.360 I sure expressed the audible so much I said, it. 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.559 Might not actually be him. But like someone gets a warning. 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.520 So it's not just the person pressing the button ignoring 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.680 the mornings, but someone gets a You know, you gotta 0:07:54.680 --> 0:07:56.560 do it judicially, right, Like you can't pop up two 0:07:56.640 --> 0:08:00.200 hundred warnings for every transaction because then everyone's gonna ignore them. 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:02.840 But like you know there's some level of like it 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.480 should not be possible for anyone at city to wire 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.360 or to send eighty one trillion dollars to anyone because 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.480 that's more than they have. Yes, but even six billion dollars, 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:13.120 like there should be someone checking that. 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.680 Maybe I want someone to ask Jane Frazier about this. 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:19.120 I want this. I don't think it necessarily will come 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:20.800 up on the next earnings call, but I want to 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:22.520 see this in an earnings transcript. 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:25.800 It's very funny to imagine these big material risks to 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.720 the bank, right, like a bank going bankrupt because it 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:31.640 accidentally wired out eighty one trillion dollars. But they're not 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.320 really like they're symbolic risks. They're like you should have 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:37.600 better tech so that you don't mess stuff up. But 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:41.800 it's not like any one of these was like that serious. 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:44.200 The Redlin was bad, but like not that happening. 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:46.800 You have to imagine that this is certainly a symptom 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:49.400 of something that maybe. 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:52.240 Is like a symptom of like bad computer screens, like 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.080 the eighty one trillion dollar transaction. The reporting on that 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:57.559 is wild. That wasn't like putting the wrong thing in 0:08:57.600 --> 0:08:59.960 the wrong field. That was they use some sort of 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.160 rarely used backup screen to make the payment that was 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.240 prepopulated with fifteen zeros, so you had to delete the 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:10.280 fifteen zeros to type in the amount, and if you 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.000 just type in the amount, you like override some of 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:14.400 the zeros and you sent out trillions of dollars and 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:17.600 that's what happened, which is just like you could just 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:20.280 not do that, You just not have it automatically populate 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:23.560 with fifteen zeros and then like you've saved yourself a 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:25.839 problem right there. So it is just like a lot 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.640 of it I think is like software design. Yeah, and 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:31.920 it's not always a priority for the CEO of a 0:09:31.960 --> 0:09:35.720 bank to be like we need the like internal software 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:38.959 to be more user friendly, but you know it might 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:40.280 be for Jane Fraser at. 0:09:40.200 --> 0:09:42.880 This point, you know, I would imagine it's moved up 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:44.560 the priority list a few notches. 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:47.920 Like someone is asking Jane Fraser about the you know, 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:49.920 user interfaces on the payment software. 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:53.480 Maybe we'll get some answers regulator, maybe like, yeah, I 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:55.280 do love the point that you made in Money Stuff 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.199 that maybe this is a reason actually to bank with City. 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.199 You're basically by opening up a with them, buying a 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:02.000 lottery ticket. 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:06.719 Stereotypically, banks sometimes make mistakes. Yeah, I write about a 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:08.920 bank doing some error, and people be like, I think 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.040 you're being too generous to the bank. They never make 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:13.560 errors in the customer's favor. It's always in favor of 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:15.520 the bank. It's like, well, no city makes yours in 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.479 the customers faver all the time. They don't like, necessarily 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:22.120 get to keep the money. You probably shouldn't try to 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:25.120 bank with a bank that makes mistake in payments all 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:27.560 the time. That's more likely to end badly for you. 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:28.920 But it would be kind of fun to get eighty 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:30.199 one trillion dollars in your account. 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:32.160 And what if it's like a really small amount, you know, 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:36.360 language a casual like half million dollars that they would 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:37.560 they even notice. I don't know. 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:41.920 Just thinking about my account number by bank, which has 0:10:42.040 --> 0:10:43.360 nine digits, it should be nice. 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:46.679 Do you want to say them here? Should be cool? 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:04.160 My account number. 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:12.720 Is twenty three and me, uh, segue this is I 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.880 really like this story, mostly because when we were talking 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.880 about this at my desk before we recorded this podcast, 0:11:18.960 --> 0:11:20.880 then I was like, you know what, don't talk to me, 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:23.280 We'll just talk about it. In nineteen twenty three and 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:27.559 meters is a really fascinating story because I think it's 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:29.320 still a household name. 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:30.080 It kind of is. 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:31.840 And the last time I thought about it, it was 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:34.680 going public via spack. It was twenty twenty one. Things 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.600 were great, the market was frothy, and I didn't realize 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.240 that it's been slowly in a death spiral since then. 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:44.040 Yeah. I don't entirely understand it, but my impression is 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:47.280 that like the recurring revenue of selling genetic dusts to 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:49.560 be like you kind of only need to find out 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:50.480 your ancestry once. 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:52.920 Yeah, but there's so many people in the world people, 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:53.160 But like. 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.120 I also think that it's become less popular as people 0:11:56.160 --> 0:12:00.280 get worried about like privacy concerns and like they were hacked. Yeah, 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.800 she took a bad databaseically get hacked, you know. 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:05.840 Yeah, specifically in twenty twenty three, they were hacked. 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.559 And I think the time before then they've never made money. 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.720 Yeah, that's true. Yeah, And I was I was searching 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.920 for a reason why because you think about I feel 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.000 like it was really peak twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, they 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:21.440 were really popular as as gifts around the holidays. Remember 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:25.600 Elizabeth Warren took a genetic test to prove that she 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.600 had Native American heritage. That was basically the peak actually, 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.520 because apparently twenty three and me and also their competitors, 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:35.679 Ancestry being one of them, have just seen sales steadily 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:36.520 declined since then. 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.760 Yeah, and to their credit, they went public at the 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:42.199 top and. 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:44.959 The halcyon days in public in. 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:50.280 Like twenty twenty one, a three point five billion dollar valuation. 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.120 Oh know, anyway, I think they did this back mar 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:54.880 journally twenty twenty one, and they had like a three 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:59.120 point five billion dollar valuation. It's currently in the ballpark 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:03.439 of one percent of that, so not great. 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.559 I mean the shares are treating hundred two dollars right now. 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.880 I think the absolute high was well above three hundred. 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.840 Yeah stocks, but yes, that's right. Yeah. But so anyway, 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:18.680 the founder and CEO and forty nine percent shareholder and 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.520 Majiski wants to take it private. I don't actually know 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:24.960 how much she cashed out of this, but like took 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.800 it public at three point five billion dollars. Wants to 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:31.520 take a private at not zero dollars, but like quite 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:34.720 close to zero. She wants to pay public shareholders something 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.240 like ten million dollars for the company, which is like 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:42.280 forty one cents per share. And that is an interesting 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.800 negotiation because she's the controlling shareholder, and you know, the 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.360 board of directors is in charge of negotiating with her 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:51.920 and trying to get a fair price for the public shareholders. 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:54.439 I don't know what they think about the future of 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.000 the business. Like she clearly thinks it's worth something because 0:13:58.000 --> 0:13:59.360 she wants to buy it and like put some more 0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.880 money into it. But she's offering ten million dollars to 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:05.280 the public shareholders. By the way, that's much less than 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:07.560 the current trading price of the stock. She's offering forty 0:14:07.600 --> 0:14:09.160 one cents per share it now at like a buck 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.560 fifty or something like that. So she's offering a take 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:14.320 on her you know, she's saying shareolders are diluted about 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:15.599 the value of this company. I want to pay you 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:17.760 much less. Part if I were a director, I'd have 0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:20.000 a really hard time accepting a deal like that, because 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:23.760 like you're gonna get sued. You're saying, I want to 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.080 sell this company for you know, a big discount. Not 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:27.880 only too, it's like all time, Hi not only did 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.040 Sie to its price today, it's like a tough deal 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.880 to take, and so she offered not that deal but 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.800 a similarly sort of like loaded negative premium deal last year, 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:42.440 and the directors said no, and then they all quit 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:46.880 because she's the controlling shareholder and like she could fire them, 0:14:46.960 --> 0:14:48.200 and so they were like, well, we're not going to 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:51.440 take this deal, and so there's the only thing you 0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.280 really can do here as directors, and so they all quit, 0:14:54.320 --> 0:14:55.880 and so she was the only director of the company, 0:14:55.960 --> 0:15:00.120 and she went and appointed new independent directors and for 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:02.560 a new much lower price to take the company private, 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:04.840 and they all said no again this week, so they're 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:06.360 back to the square one. They have it resigned. 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:08.760 I was thinking she shouldn't, you know, do any elon 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.640 musk and just get really friendly board members who maybe 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:12.560 are related to her. 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:18.000 Well, right, when all of the directors quit, she got 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:22.000 to appoint the new directors. And there are two ways 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:25.240 you can go with that. You can appoint your relatives 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:27.640 who will then sell you the company at forty one 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.360 cents a share and get sued. Or you can to 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:35.200 point like reputable independent directors who like you know, you've 0:15:35.200 --> 0:15:37.920 had conversations with you hope that they will take your 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:42.200 proposal seriously. You hope that they will see the reasons 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:44.640 behind you're wanting to pay much less than the current 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.560 price of the company and will take your deal. But 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.360 you haven't specifically signed up to that because that looks bad. 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:53.760 And so then if they agree to your deal, you 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:55.600 look good, right, Like when you get sued, you can 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.120 say no, no, these independent directors like really did their 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.120 due diligence and accepted my deal. So I think that's 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:03.520 what was happening here, is like these directors are not 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.360 her relatives. They come from real places, Like they look 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.480 like good independent directors who could consider her deal and 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:12.840 if they signed off on it, it wouldn't be a rubber stamp. 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:14.760 But then they didn't sign off on it. So oops. 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:17.560 Yeah, And I mean, I don't know where this company goes. 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:21.200 Obviously there's some deep fundamental flaws here. 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:23.720 You occasionally see these take hunters. You see these deals 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:27.160 where a company is not viable and someone will buy 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:28.920 it for like much less than at stock price and say, 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:30.960 we're gonna put a little bit more cash on the 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:33.240 balance sheet, We're gonna keep the company alive. But like 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.000 the shareholders are diluted and they're not getting that much 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.600 money and the board will be like, yes, that's true. 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.040 It sucks for the shareholders, but we're doing it. But 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.600 it's like, that's a tough thing for a director to do, 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:45.960 particularly if you were just apported to do the deal right. 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:48.760 So it's it's like a tough spot, Like if she's 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:51.080 right that it's kind of a melting ice cube and 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.560 it's not worth what the public shaholders are paying for it, 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.760 Like it's gonna be hard for her to persuade directors 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:58.880 of that, even if it's true. And then like, you know, 0:16:58.880 --> 0:16:59.480 where do you go? 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:00.520 Yeah? 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:03.520 I think they're exploring other strategic alternatives, right, but it's 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:04.760 tough to do that when you have a forty five 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:05.480 percent shareholder. 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.480 Yeah, I was thinking maybe they could pivot into dog 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.080 DNA test kits. I know that that's still a very 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.199 popular market. I think the company has warned that it 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:17.040 needs to raise cash or find some solution or else 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:19.480 it won't be around for much longer. So I know 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.080 it'll be fascinating to follow. I mean, it just feels 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:24.359 like a company that would naturally want to go private 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:27.119 right now. And also I was surprised the question is the. 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.399 Price you know and like? And it was just he 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.000 does not think it's worth forty million dollars. 0:17:33.280 --> 0:17:35.680 Yeah, for a little bit. I mean she had a partner, 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:38.840 and that's also part of the problem. Yeah, a new mountain, 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:40.920 and I think like the bid that she offered the 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:43.920 forty one cents a share, wasn't that eighty four percent 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:45.200 or something below. 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.879 The new Mountain bod which in turn was lower than 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:50.600 the bid last year that the director's resigned over her. 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:54.760 Bids have been getting lower, probably for reasons. Yeah, yeah, 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:57.400 it looks bad. It's a bad process. Normally the board 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:00.200 like negotiates you up here they're negotiating or down. Uh 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:01.840 not great. 0:18:02.040 --> 0:18:06.160 I don't know. I mean I hope that the genetic 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:11.240 testing universe continues to exist and perhaps thrive. Is because 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:13.480 you think about true crime. I listen to a lot 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:18.160 of true crime podcasts, and there have been instances where 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.320 like these sort of kits where you can find your 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:25.160 family members, long lost family members have been uncovered through 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:26.160 little kids like this. 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.199 I think I read an interview with her or she 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:35.199 talked about that as a negative for sales because like 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:41.160 you know, serial killer for sure, a little genetic testing 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.080 and then like your cousin gets arrested in the serialcular. 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:44.680 I wish I hadn't bought that Kip. 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:48.639 It's good for society, maybe bad for sale. But again 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:51.320 as someone who I don't know, maybe I am related 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.720