WEBVTT - Kelsey Grammer Meets World 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:29.640 Little warning for our Pod Meats World listeners. This episode 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:33.720 contains details of a horrific crime that involves not only violence, 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.720 but sexual assault and intense grief. Please proceed with caution. 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:41.880 One of the many lessons we have hosts have learned 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:45.320 while making Pod Meets World is that you never really 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.760 know what people are going through. We would drive to 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:51.559 set every day ready to have fun. I would endlessly 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.360 talk about boys, Writer would read a book he had 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:56.360 stuffed into his oversized. 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:59.040 Gene pockets, and Will would smoke. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:04.039 As kids, we just bopped around, laughing, care free, while 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:07.720 our adult co workers around us doing their job, each 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:13.360 hysterical and talented. We're experiencing difficult adult situations, and now, 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:18.479 as middle aged human beings ourselves, we know that's not easy. 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.679 And some of the most successful and funny actors of 0:01:21.800 --> 0:01:25.120 all time weren't exactly as ready for the spotlight in 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:28.679 their personal lives as they were on screen. Matthew Perry, 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.959 Chris Farley, and Carrie Fisher come to mind, and the 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.240 new book Karen a Brother Remembers by sitcom legend Kelsey 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.600 Grammer is another example of never really knowing what your 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:43.319 favorite characters in movies and on TV could really be 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:47.080 going through at home. This five time Emmy winner, who 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:51.040 helped define modern comedy as Fraser Crane on Cheers and 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.920 then his own show, Fraser, experienced tragedy at just twenty 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:57.720 years old when his eighteen year old sister Karen, was 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:01.160 raped and brutally murdered by men who had intended to 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:05.360 rob the Red Lobster where she worked. She was kidnapped, assaulted, 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:08.280 and then later stabbed by a group that ended up 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.080 killing a handful of others before they were caught. Kelsey 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:16.119 was soulmates with his sister, connected beyond the normal sibling relationship, 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:18.520 and the way she was taken from him and his 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:22.000 own conceived inability to save her still plagues him today. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:26.200 In his honest and brave writing, he finally faces the 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:29.400 devastation and pain he feels, offering the reader a glimpse 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.359 into not only his struggles, but his process of coping 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:36.120 with tragedy. Because, in addition to Karen, Kelsey's father would 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.640 be killed by a man in a racially motivated attack, 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:41.800 his half brothers would die in a scuba diving accident, 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:44.680 and his own daughter was slashed by a knife wielding 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:46.800 man in a New York restaurant while she tried to 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:50.919 pull the attacker off of another person. And yet Kelsey 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:55.120 Grammar survived, fighting every day to get up and move forward, 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:59.519 letting others enjoy his work on screen and on stage. 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.600 So now we welcome to the podcast, a sitcom legend 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:06.240 and a true survivor. It's Kelsey Grammar. 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:11.280 Thank hello. That was quite nice, Danielle. Thank you very much. 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:15.760 Thank you, thank you for being here with us. So 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:19.400 nice that you're here to share your and Karen's story. 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:20.680 It means a great deal to us. 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:22.320 I do appreciate it. Thank you. 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:28.080 So the story of your sister is so tragic and 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:33.600 yet beautiful with your ability as a vulnerable narrator. And 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:38.320 I was wondering at Cheers or Frasier, did a lot 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:39.840 of people know this story? 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:44.360 No they didn't. Actually I didn't walk around talking about 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:48.360 it a lot. You know, it's been with me, of course, 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:50.120 you know since the day it happened, which is now 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:57.360 it was fifty years this summer, I was actually thinking 0:03:57.360 --> 0:03:59.320 about a friend of an old friend of mine years 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.680 ago who actually accused me of using it sometimes to 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:03.640 try to score. 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:09.360 It's because you weird. 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:12.120 Yeah, it was just weird. It was like, it's so 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:14.200 funny that he brought it up. He said, well, Kelsey, 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:17.800 when somebody asked you have sisters or brothers, you say, yeah, 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:20.520 I had a sister, And then they asked you, and 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:22.919 then somebody asked another question, how are they? What are 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:24.960 they do? I said, well, actually she was killed, you know, 0:04:25.000 --> 0:04:27.640 And so it would come up naturally and I would 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.640 never volunteer it. But I just suddenly thought what a 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.200 strange friendship that was. I didn't wrote about it in my. 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:39.440 Bo That's probably not a great friend. 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.839 From somebody you call a friend, but it's okay. 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:48.279 Yeah, I can imagine, Yeah, it's been something you just 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:49.560 abide with for a long time. 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.200 And I never really actually there's a there's a great 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:57.120 line ordinary human unhappiness, his life and its natural color, 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.880 nothing to cavilove, and that's an audun line. But I 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.479 always thought that. I thought, well, we don't any reason 0:05:04.480 --> 0:05:05.920 to let, you know, piss and moan about our lives. 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:07.920 We don't have any real reason to complain about where 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:12.160 we are. My purpose in writing the book came when 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.560 I was kind of instructed through a medium and said, oh, 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:17.360 your sister's here with me. She wants you to tell 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:20.479 her story, and that was really kind of interesting. I thought, well, 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:23.000 I wonder how that would go. So I sat down 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:24.839 one day and I started writing, just to kind of, 0:05:24.880 --> 0:05:27.040 you know, do some sort of bullet points in my head. 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:28.719 I thought, well, maybe I should give us a try. 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:32.039 And about an hour later it had ten pages of 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:35.360 stuff kind of jotted down, and I thought, oh, I 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.719 guess I'm going to write a book. And that's that's 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:41.480 what turned into Karen and I spent three years working 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:41.760 on it. 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.320 Basically, I'm so curious, having having read the book, what 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:47.720 were the first ten pages that came out? 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:50.919 Pretty much what you read the first ten pages. 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.760 It was linear at the time, and it really became a. 0:05:54.800 --> 0:06:00.880 Kind of stream of consciousness exercise. And of course the 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.160 style is stream of consciousness. But when I was twelve, 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:06.000 you know, I read Portrait of the Artist as a 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:07.839 young Man by James Joyce and I thought, boy, what 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:14.680 a little crap. This is kind of harpooned byself. You know, 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:16.680 we always become what we make fun of when when 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:21.360 we were younger, you know, employee in that style, because 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:25.040 it was so immediate, it was like, I mean, I'm 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:28.880 working on another book now, And I just basically realized 0:06:28.920 --> 0:06:30.800 that I wanted to be like, you're having a conversation 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:32.920 like you have, like we're sitting down for a coffee 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.359 and maybe you know so it's several hundred pages, but 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:38.440 still it's it's like, yeah, well we're sitting down, I'm 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:39.040 going to tell you some. 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:41.479 Stories, right well, I mean, for me, like what was 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.279 so interesting about the book was how much of the 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.200 book becomes or the journey of the book becomes the 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:49.360 writing of the book, you know, I mean you're literally 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:51.360 taking time where you're like, I'm not going to write 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:52.080 for a little while. 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.080 I need to, I need to take them some days off. 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:55.920 And then you come back and say, I'm rereading what 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:57.880 I wrote ten days ago and I'm picking up and 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:01.840 I thought that was so interesting. Did you ever, I mean, 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:03.919 how far into it were you like I have to 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:06.680 finish this or were you ever were you still constantly 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:08.760 like I might just put this in a drawer, and no. 0:07:09.680 --> 0:07:13.400 Once it began, I thought I have to finish to 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:18.040 finish it out. Uh, what I found, what I found 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.640 so engaging about it, and what was what I hope 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:23.320 you know, we'll be shared with other people now that 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.920 book's been out for about six months now, but no, 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:32.119 maybe four. But I wanted it to be something that 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.400 I discovered with the reader, and I think that I 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.240 think that comes across. But I discovered things about time, 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.680 and I mean, my my favorite metaphor ends up being 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:45.080 that that carpenter's tool with the folding tape measure, the 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.800 folding measure ring device, you know, the thing that suddenly 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.120 it goes out to eight feet long or whatever, and 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:51.400 then you fold it all in and say, it's just 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:54.559 about this big, and that's all those marks and time 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:56.760 just fold it in on each other and you can 0:07:56.840 --> 0:08:00.800 open any one of them and you're in that time. Yeah. Really, 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:06.280 the organic kind of exercise of time in my life 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:10.400 became completely different, completely quantum, I guess, is what you 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:12.880 could say about it. And it was a wonderful thing 0:08:12.920 --> 0:08:16.080 for me to suddenly go to be transported from a 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:17.840 memory of Karen when she was just a little girl 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.880 to something I remembered about my own child, you know, yeah, 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.320 three months ago. It was extraordinary. 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.800 I'm so curious because so much of the book is 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.720 about loss, but it's also at the same time about 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:33.880 the people that were so important in your life and 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:36.120 So with all the loss of the book covers, has 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.960 writing the book brought any of those people back into 0:08:39.000 --> 0:08:39.520 your life? 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:42.800 Yeah? Yeah, what's fun is a couple of the people 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:44.800 who are still alive. Brad Keller, for instance, is one 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.559 of my great great friends I went to the music 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:51.559 camp together with when we were seventeen. Is still a pal, 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:53.880 and that's been great. Some of the folks that I 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:55.880 looked up, you know, that I'd known in the past, 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:58.719 wanted to talk to me. Some didn't, so I got them. 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:02.160 But what was most important actually was to realize, as 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.640 I'd never realized before, what a great gift my grandparents 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:09.440 gave us and to grow up in that, you know. 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:11.800 I Mean we everybodys talking about privilege and all that 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:13.760 kind of stuff these days, but I mean we really 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:16.640 were privileged for those ten years. I mean, we were 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:21.760 just kids, and they gave us safety and art and 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.959 you know, exposure to a great world. And they fed us, 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:28.400 you know. I mean, that is a privilege to live 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:30.719 in a world where you get fed, you know, and 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:33.480 looked after. And we were told, you know, stories about 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.520 what it meant to be an American, and we were 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.880 told what it meant to be like pioneers. And I 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.240 mean because the family was related to connected to pioneers. 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:43.959 My great grandfather across the country ten times on a horse. 0:09:44.080 --> 0:09:48.040 I mean, it's just this kind of history is extraordinary, 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:49.480 and they gave us that, they gave us a sense 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:51.840 of where we belonged in history. That was a really 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:55.440 great gift. And so I ended up being extraordinarily grateful 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:58.040 to them and to my mom because my mom had 0:09:58.080 --> 0:10:00.360 the courage to kind of it didn't work got so 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:04.280 well with my dad, but she said, well, I need 0:10:04.280 --> 0:10:06.720 to go back to my mom and dad, and I 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:10.959 ended up with this amazing man who taught me as 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:16.280 a boy. You know, that was a great, great gift. Yeah, 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:16.680 it was. 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:18.120 Well, that was one of the things that really stuck 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.520 with me is the vision of planting the garden you're 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:22.520 never going to get to see. 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:24.000 So the fact that he. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:28.600 Right before he passed, moved the whole family to Florida 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:30.200 because he knew you were going to have the better 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.400 life down there and never got to be in the home. 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:33.640 That was the plan. 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:34.400 Thank you. 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:35.760 That really stuck with me. 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.120 Where it is it's somebody it is planting the garden 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:39.360 that you know that you're not going to get to 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:41.200 sit under the shade of the tree, but you're still 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:42.800 you're still doing it was really wonderful. 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.640 Yeah, I don't know if I don't remember now if 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:49.840 I wrote about it in the book, but Gordon, when 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:53.760 I was about fifteen, came to me in a dream, right, 0:10:54.480 --> 0:10:57.480 and I was I'd gone down some some weird sort 0:10:57.480 --> 0:11:01.640 of series of staircases into a like a late a 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:03.960 late night brothel kind of place where I was having 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.720 a beer and he walked in wearing some khaki shorts 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:10.120 and you know then his socks pulled up to his 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:14.920 calf like a Safari each shirt. The hell are you 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:18.640 doing here? He said, Oh, well, I just had to 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:23.400 get out. I was losing my mind. He left me 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:26.680 with him, you know, he said, yeah, yeah, I forget 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:28.720 you coulda hadle it by then. And so I got 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.800 this kind of release of like, well, yeah, he knew 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.800 he was. He was passing the baton to me, basically, 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:38.360 I was. It was really fun to kind of have that. 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.960 It's almost joyous closure with this vision of a man 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:45.040 who I mean, he loomed large in my imagination, of course, 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:46.840 you know, in his his service in World War two, 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:50.400 and he was god for twenty eight months. You know, 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.040 that's extraording what those people did and that he was 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:54.320 part of it. I knew, and then I had the 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.320 privilege to know him, you know, really well, it was 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:01.160 it was a great gift to know Gordon anyway, that's yeah. 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:03.760 I also sorry, I just have to say I felt 0:12:03.880 --> 0:12:06.719 very connected to Jill. Oh. 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:08.920 I'm sitting here right now in Avon, Connecticut, in the 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:12.160 town right next to West Hartford. Kidding, my mom born 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:14.440 and raised in West Harford, and her parents worked at 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:17.400 the ETNA and the Hartford So there's a chance my 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:21.240 grandparents knew Jill's family. There's a there's very much a 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.200 chance that happened. Yeah, So yeah, it was such a connection. 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:26.360 Yeah, I was really in love with her. It was interesting, 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.640 was it was. It was need to rediscover that as well, 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:33.800 and they kind of realized that it was real. You know, 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:35.360 for a long time, I just sort of died, you know, 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.319 you know, you dismissed certain experiences in your life as 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.880 being all flippant or or you know, maybe maybe too 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.280 superficial or whatever, but it really wasn't. I mean, we 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:49.000 were we were two kids that actually we're trying our best, 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:53.120 and I just couldn't quite do what she needed. 0:12:55.160 --> 0:12:56.960 The story of so much young love though, I mean 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:58.719 really there. 0:12:58.720 --> 0:12:59.840 Was no I was going to be able to make 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:01.760 it her at that point. 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:04.880 Those things, well, one thing I noticed in the book 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:08.240 was a real openness to something you have already touched 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:11.680 on talking to mediums and those people who work in 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:15.360 a little more of a supernatural realm, and maybe that 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.640 you even encountered a ghost on this journey. Were you 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.640 always a believer in these things? Or was was the 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.559 where is how you got there? The need to speak 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:26.040 to Karen? 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:32.160 Yeah? I I was always kind of interested in this 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:37.760 world of you know, what level are we on? What? What? What? 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:41.280 What aspect of existence is like in current form and 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:46.600 then in other places you know, or dimensions if you will. 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:51.680 And what is it about the psychometry or any number 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:56.240 of other what they call oracles or you know, a 0:13:56.320 --> 0:14:07.960 guidance devices or or mechanisms. Yeah, and so I produced 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:12.760 a show twenty years ago called the Oracles, and it 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:14.960 never got on the air, But we had readings with 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.719 seven psychics, basically, and some of them were good, someone 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:20.720 weren't so good. But one of them was this Gal 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.200 Allison who we ended up making a show called Medium 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.840 about her gifts and about her story, and she was 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:31.520 pretty interesting. But there was another Gal Dolores, who was 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:36.160 a psychometrist and she had hits. She you know, you 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.560 start to learn the language of it. There's a they 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:43.280 get hits, they get they have sittings, they have a sitter, 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:46.920 someone that's there and they're the subject of a reading. 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.440 Sometimes if they're if they're getting stuff that they don't 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:52.280 know this person at all, and you know that's the case, 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:56.000 and they're getting hits of more than sixty percent that 0:14:56.040 --> 0:15:00.840 are accurate about them, it's pretty phenomenal. You know, I 0:15:00.880 --> 0:15:03.120 don't know this person and yet I know these things 0:15:03.120 --> 0:15:05.000 about them as a result of some of the information 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:08.120 I'm getting from wherever they're getting it. I don't have 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:13.240 the gift. I discovered some gifts of inside. I guess 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:15.640 because that's the kind of person I'm I'm empathetic. I 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:21.480 guess as our way of living as an as an 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:23.760 actress to kind of try to figure out what motivates people, 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:26.880 why they do what they do, and so that was 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:29.120 that's always been part of me. I can kind of 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.560 see what motivations are for certain people that might you 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.400 might not seem apparent to most. But so that's my gift, 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:40.600 but their gift is really extraordinary. And like with Esther, 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:43.040 when she first told me the thing, I mean, it 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.680 was you know, almost cartoonish in my head because we 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:49.120 were on the phone and she lives in England, and 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.360 there really was that you know, there's a little rattle 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:53.240 I heard, and I thought I heard some bones being 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:58.040 thrown around where this goes. And then she pops out 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:01.760 with that tell my story thing, and I thought, wow, okay, 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:04.880 I believe that. And I've I've met others who who 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:07.960 brought Karen by and you know, and got some input 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.560 and others that I thought, well, that sounds a little 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.240 derribative of what you'd just be able to read if 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.480 you're interested. So but I do think it's a very 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:19.320 interesting thing. And I've got some you know, fundamentalist friends 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:23.240 or evangelical pals that you know say, oh, you know, Kelse, 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.080 we can't really talk about this stuff, and right I 0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:28.880 respect that, because you know what, I do think it 0:16:28.880 --> 0:16:30.560 can muddy the waters. I mean, I do think you 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:35.200 know your your life of if you're a devotee of Christianity, 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:38.640 if you if you're following the Christian path, it might 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.920 be wise not to invite in voices from some other place, 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.280 some other plane. But I do think that, you know, 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:50.960 in Revelation, you know, John Devine was actually channeling. 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:52.440 So but you do. 0:16:52.640 --> 0:16:54.320 It's what That's the other thing that's so interesting is 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:58.000 because at times you're talking about Buddha, at times you're 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.400 talking about Valhalla. Yeah, I mean, there's it seems like 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.800 you're kind of open to every spiritual path. 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:09.040 Frank Yeah, absolutely, I think. Uh. I mean, they're they're 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:11.639 man made, you know, and but they are they're they're 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:15.800 taken from moments when man interfaced with the higher power, 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:19.159 whatever that is. Wherever they're whatever, there are series of 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.760 symbols and and uh and images are that the sort 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:28.720 of resonate with them. Uh. It's still the same story. 0:17:29.000 --> 0:17:33.719 It's still our interaction with with God, with with the power, 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:38.080 with our creator, something that is above us within us 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.159 at the same time. And so there's different ways of 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.040 expressing it. But I love the idea of voyeah. 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:46.280 Me too, Yeah, me too as well. Yeah, same, so Yeah. 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:48.840 One of the best quotes I heard was was God 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.000 is the name that we give the blanket that we 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.720 throw over the thing to give it shape. And I 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:56.000 think there's something kind of interesting about that where it's 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:57.359 you know, you got to you got to call it 0:17:57.400 --> 0:17:58.040 something right. 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:02.720 Somebody years years ago. I think it was Theodore macaal 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.000 as lecture in in my high school where he just 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.440 said the word of jahweh or whatever basically just means 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:15.040 that thing again that yeah, yeah, there is Yeah, there's 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.440 that thing. Yeah, it just keeps coming up. 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:19.480 That thing we can't quite describe. 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:34.720 Yeah, there are a lot of times in the book 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.919 where you mention that Karen is still with you, helping 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:41.000 you in life and sharing her thoughts with you even 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:44.480 while you were writing the book. And my husband also 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.040 talks about this with his mother. He says, I can't 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.840 explain it, but in times where something comes up and 0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:54.440 we're having a conversation, he goes, I know exactly what 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.919 my mom would say, and he's sure it is like 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:01.840 a direct placement of her her opinion into his brain 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:03.919 from her. He's like, I just know it. I know 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:07.879 for certain what she would say. Is that how it 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:09.960 feels for you. What are some of the examples of 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:11.879 Karen being with you and helping to guide you. 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:15.640 Yeah, that's really interesting. Of course it became more present. 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:17.480 I mean, I was more aware of it as I 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:19.960 wrote the book. Yeah, and then I realized that throughout 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.800 my life with her, it's probably come up a few times. 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:24.520 I mean, I remember I was sitting on a plane 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:27.560 once years ago with a group of friends. It was 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:30.800 like thirty years ago, and I was going to some advance, 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:32.720 some upfront or whatever it was. And things were cool 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:34.680 and we were drinking champagne and there were people all 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.320 around and it was a real celebration. And a girl 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:41.200 I was dating at the time said, you know, your 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:47.239 sister's here, lovely ow. You know, maybe she is, so 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:49.920 it's come up before I thought, he'll grab that phone. 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:57.560 But in the descriptions of the events while writing the book, 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:01.520 the sense of Karen around me, with me just became 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:07.560 more apparent, you know, because I was accessing it. I 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:09.800 was asking her to be there, and she was and 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:13.720 it was wonderful, And it also released her in a 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:18.520 way in some ways, you know, not necessarily feel like 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:19.919 she had to be in the every day of it 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.359 all all the time. But I still like her around. 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:24.200 I still expect to see her when I'm done. 0:20:25.960 --> 0:20:27.840 Well, that was that was the thing that was one 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:29.879 of the things that really struck me about how it 0:20:29.960 --> 0:20:33.560 was written, is it it almost seemed like a mirror 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:37.280 of grief in that you have times where you're reading 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.119 the book where everything's good and happy, and then all 0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:40.439 of a sudden, there's a letter from. 0:20:40.280 --> 0:20:40.879 The pear Board. 0:20:41.080 --> 0:20:44.320 Yeah, and it's it's like it all comes rushing back 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:46.600 right away, so you feel like you're able to take 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:49.160 this breath, and then you're dragged under the water again, 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:53.120 and there's something very does it Does it get easier 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:54.040 as time goes on. 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:56.919 No, it's really weird. It's just there. There's still that pang. 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:00.439 The pang is just renewed. It just it just it's 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.600 just as vibrant as the first time it happened. But 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:07.719 what's weird is that it did seem like the first 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:11.600 time the parole Board actually reached out to me. I 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:14.960 guess there was a sort of a limit in terms 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:18.240 of years as to how long that wouldn't happen. And 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:22.440 then the period passed and the first letter came through, 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:25.040 and I was with Kate at the time, so we've 0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:29.760 been together for fifteen years, and oh my goodness, I 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:33.159 just I wept for days because it was like they 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.920 just sent a knife through me. And they just said, oh, 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.080 and this is happening. You need to do this, you 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.359 need to now talk about And suddenly my whole the 0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:46.200 forty years that had passed before were gone, and I 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:48.560 was still I was back as that twenty year old 0:21:48.600 --> 0:21:51.440 young man looking at his dead sister, and it was 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:56.240 just a horrible, horrible thing. And I don't know, you know, 0:21:56.320 --> 0:22:00.440 I don't know how to get around it, because yeah, 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:04.359 people deserve justice, and yes, criminals who've done horrible things 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:06.800 have a right to try to, you know, make amends 0:22:06.840 --> 0:22:08.639 and move on in life and stuff like that. I 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:10.560 just there are some instances I think, I think that 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:14.520 it's just not going to happen, but I believe in 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:17.400 the process of it. But I mentioned it in the book. 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:19.679 I think that's one of the parole people said to me. 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:21.400 At one point. I said, you know, this is really 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:24.200 cool stuff that you guys have to do to people, 0:22:24.320 --> 0:22:28.160 and all these innocent people who suffered have to suffer again. 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:32.480 Why is that okay? And they said, well, it's it's 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:35.440 not called the victim's justice system. It's called the criminal 0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:36.800 justice system. 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:41.120 Yeah, jeezu, Yeah. 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:43.320 Yeah, I get it. I mean, you know, and so, 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:45.200 and we have a lot of that going on now, 0:22:45.240 --> 0:22:47.720 you know, Los Angeles, some of the bigger cities. You know, 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:52.480 we're lost in this repeat criminal stuff. The stuff is 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:54.159 going on every day around us. You know, you just 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:57.680 keep thinking, how is this possible? But I guess that 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:00.359 our better angels are telling us to try to be 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.760 you know, forgiving and give people second chances. But maybe 0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:07.200 maybe nine or ten or eleven chances is one too many. 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:12.000 Yeah, you talked about how you know, time sort of 0:23:12.920 --> 0:23:15.000 is meaningless when you have these pangs and you have 0:23:15.040 --> 0:23:18.760 these emotional and there's a really incredible scene in the 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:24.560 book where you are you're playing lairties I believe and yeah, 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:28.320 and he's talking about his sister being dead and you 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:31.000 have you know, you were playing the scene and then 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:35.040 you had this incredible dog you're in real life, who 0:23:35.240 --> 0:23:38.680 knew that you weren't acting for a moment and came 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:42.120 running from backstage or whatever came to you to try 0:23:42.119 --> 0:23:44.359 to make you feel better. And it was such a 0:23:44.359 --> 0:23:45.080 striking scene. 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:45.840 It was so beautiful. 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:48.359 And then I was also thinking about how, you know, 0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:52.440 you've done a lot of comedy and that that's primarily 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:54.520 been you know, the bulk of your career. 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:55.280 The money Maker. 0:23:55.680 --> 0:23:59.000 Yeah, well, I'm curious about how the grief that you 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:03.480 do clearly just have access to on a moment's notice, Like, 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:07.280 how has that has that been something that you've accessed 0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:10.400 as an actor or is it something that you've avoided 0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:12.960 as an actor and and moved away from intentionally? 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:17.520 Yeah? Interesting, I don't I'm not afraid of it. I 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:20.240 think it actually kind of fortifies comedy to know that 0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:23.439 there's a tragic side, you know, that's that there's that balance. 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:26.520 I think Fraser was always capable of being quite emotional 0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:29.280 when it was important, you know. And it was like 0:24:29.320 --> 0:24:31.240 when he had a scene with Niles when he says, 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:32.680 you know, that woman's never been part of this family 0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:34.640 blah blah blah blah blah. I mean, and that got 0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:38.520 very emotion of what I remember. There was a great 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:45.160 moment between Martin and Fraser where the boys had always 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:48.720 suspected that this one summer their dad was having an affair, 0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:59.280 and it turned out that it was their mom. It 0:24:59.480 --> 0:25:02.480 just felt like just like a page rip out of 0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:07.679 my own life, right, And then, uh, John and I 0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:10.199 both sat and thought, isn't it remarkable that we have 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:14.280 these feelings about these two people that aren't really real, 0:25:14.640 --> 0:25:16.879 but they're made real by us. We give them their flesh, 0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:22.760 their their life, their atmosphere, their their their emotions, and boy, 0:25:22.840 --> 0:25:24.719 I just it's just I mean, I was crying my 0:25:24.720 --> 0:25:28.640 eyes out back then. It's about, you know, suddenly realizing 0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:32.480 that you shared a grief with your parent that you 0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:35.239 didn't ever know about before. It was an extraordinary thing, 0:25:35.280 --> 0:25:36.640 you know, I didn't really know my dad. I talked 0:25:36.640 --> 0:25:41.359 about that in the book. But having the experience I 0:25:41.359 --> 0:25:43.920 had with John, Having the experience I had with David 0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:48.760 uh as as my brother and my father were relationships 0:25:48.800 --> 0:25:51.840 I didn't have in life that I got to experience 0:25:51.880 --> 0:25:55.160 because of the acting. Wow, kind of a great gift, 0:25:55.200 --> 0:25:57.200 you know. I mean, that's and I feel like I 0:25:57.800 --> 0:26:01.400 started to understand what that could be like like certainly, 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:04.080 I mean, probably more idealized than most. I mean, because 0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:07.120 I mean, you know, human beings. Who is disappointing it's 0:26:07.760 --> 0:26:10.719 our actual parents and then people we've known, I mean, 0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:14.560 might not be quite so perfect in their revelations as 0:26:14.600 --> 0:26:17.920 we are as actors, but or quite so willing to embrace, 0:26:17.960 --> 0:26:21.959 you know, the emotion. But I had a wonderful it 0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:24.080 was a wonderful gift to have a brother and a 0:26:24.119 --> 0:26:26.040 father that I'd never had a relationship with in my 0:26:26.080 --> 0:26:27.520 real life. That's cool. 0:26:27.640 --> 0:26:30.120 Yeah, there's I have to read a quote because as 0:26:30.160 --> 0:26:33.000 an actor, it's just so stuck with me. You wrote, 0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:36.439 I'm quite willing to share this theory. I think it's simple. 0:26:36.520 --> 0:26:39.080 Shy people are afraid to speak the truth. Acting as 0:26:39.080 --> 0:26:41.080 a professional past time in which a person can tell 0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:42.399 the truth and not get in trouble. 0:26:42.560 --> 0:26:46.040 Yeah, and set early on. 0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:50.160 It's just it's really did. It just really resonated as 0:26:50.200 --> 0:26:53.040 I read that. It's very interesting because I've always thought 0:26:53.080 --> 0:26:56.200 that unless somebody really deals with the tragedy early in life, 0:26:56.240 --> 0:26:58.719 your childhood really kind of ends the day you realize 0:26:58.760 --> 0:26:59.719 your parents are people. 0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:02.520 Oh that's that's pretty interesting. Yeah, that's a pretty sad 0:27:02.600 --> 0:27:04.600 day that first that they're like, oh. 0:27:04.600 --> 0:27:12.320 No, you're not superheroes. There's something about that. It's very real. 0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:14.000 But at the same time, it's like, oh, it's kind 0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:14.679 of deposing. 0:27:14.960 --> 0:27:22.080 It's very deflating. Yeah, shocks. Yeah, we're all perfect and 0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:25.199 now that's just small people, just people. 0:27:25.359 --> 0:27:29.000 Yeah, you flawed human beings. It can't be possible. Yeah. 0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:31.120 And then hopefully you have enough time to forgive them. 0:27:31.560 --> 0:27:33.760 Yeah, exactly, exactly. 0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:38.520 Of course, you have eight kids, which, by the way, 0:27:38.640 --> 0:27:41.359 feels like a totally different book you could write. You 0:27:41.480 --> 0:27:45.520 write just a book about having eight children. What did 0:27:45.520 --> 0:27:49.600 they know about their aunt Karen before you wrote the book? 0:27:49.800 --> 0:27:53.320 Interesting? Yeah, most, I've never really told them a lot 0:27:53.320 --> 0:27:54.680 about it when I started to write the book. The 0:27:55.000 --> 0:27:57.040 younger set, you know, this is this group that's now 0:27:57.400 --> 0:28:00.000 we just had our fourth one, so it just became 0:28:00.160 --> 0:28:02.160 maate kids. It was like three days ago. 0:28:02.440 --> 0:28:05.160 Oh my god, congratulation. 0:28:08.760 --> 0:28:10.959 Christopher, that's just joined the family. 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:12.959 Welcome Christopher. 0:28:13.080 --> 0:28:17.280 Yeah, lovely, Yes, But so this younger group, you know, 0:28:18.400 --> 0:28:20.000 I've told him they can't read the book yet because 0:28:20.040 --> 0:28:22.199 some of the stuffs too brutal. Sure, they don't really 0:28:22.280 --> 0:28:26.120 need to be exposed to that yet. My eldest daughter 0:28:26.200 --> 0:28:27.720 of this cluster. 0:28:29.920 --> 0:28:34.879 Coming clusters, when you have you can section them off. 0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:38.880 However, you've got several gangs that. 0:28:39.240 --> 0:28:43.320 Faith my my, you know, my thirteen year old. You know, 0:28:43.400 --> 0:28:45.600 I've told her some of what happened, you know, and 0:28:45.440 --> 0:28:47.320 then said, you know, maybe in another year or two 0:28:47.360 --> 0:28:49.320 you can probably probably read the book and be able 0:28:49.360 --> 0:28:53.520 to handle it. It's it's pretty brutal. But she's a 0:28:53.600 --> 0:28:55.040 very sensitive kid too, so I do you know, I 0:28:55.080 --> 0:29:00.160 want to be careful about it some. But Gabriel a 0:29:00.200 --> 0:29:03.320 year old. I mentioned him in the book too, He's 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:05.240 the one that's more inquisitive. He says, how do you 0:29:05.240 --> 0:29:06.800 feel about that? How does it make you feel? Does 0:29:06.840 --> 0:29:08.640 your do you want to kill the guy that killed 0:29:08.680 --> 0:29:11.920 your sister? Stuff like that. I said, well, that wouldn't 0:29:11.960 --> 0:29:14.360 be right, babe. I'm going to take you know more. 0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:17.640 Death doesn't necessarily make things right, you know. But he 0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:22.240 asks really really probing questions. It's it's his thing, it's 0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:24.560 what he does. He likes to find out what's going on. 0:29:24.640 --> 0:29:27.640 I think he's going to be, I know, some sort 0:29:27.640 --> 0:29:31.240 of weird genius side of what he'll choose in his life. 0:29:31.280 --> 0:29:34.600 But but he's definitely in it with his whole heart 0:29:34.600 --> 0:29:36.560 and with his whole head. And it's it's it's it's 0:29:36.560 --> 0:29:39.120 fun to answer questions from someone who is so thoroughly 0:29:39.160 --> 0:29:44.040 interested in the answer. Yeah, And I admire him as 0:29:44.080 --> 0:29:47.560 a person. I admire his so you know, his stick 0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:50.160 to his tenacity and turn in searching for the truth. 0:29:50.240 --> 0:29:51.480 He's a really interesting kid. 0:29:51.800 --> 0:29:56.240 They're all interesting, just curious because you touched on it 0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:00.239 how I mean, complex is the wrong obviously word to use, 0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:02.880 but because it was so much closer to the time. 0:30:02.680 --> 0:30:04.080 Of your sister's actual death. 0:30:04.680 --> 0:30:08.760 What what did you feel when her killer's sentence was 0:30:08.800 --> 0:30:11.000 commuted from death to life in prison? 0:30:11.200 --> 0:30:13.440 Right. I was sort of on the periphery of that decision, 0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:15.880 but I thought to myself, well, that's weird. These guys 0:30:15.920 --> 0:30:19.719 actually they received the death penalty. Yeah, and there were 0:30:19.720 --> 0:30:23.280 three of them at the time. Ah, And I just thought, 0:30:23.320 --> 0:30:26.640 what's going on? And it was it was actually just 0:30:27.240 --> 0:30:30.680 it was toward the end of the Carter administration and 0:30:30.760 --> 0:30:37.640 the Supreme Court of Colorado just did a blanket commutation 0:30:37.720 --> 0:30:41.840 of all death sentences because they were reviewing everything. And 0:30:41.880 --> 0:30:44.280 of course, since then, the death penalty doesn't exist in Colorado, 0:30:44.400 --> 0:30:51.680 but it the life without possibility of parole did not 0:30:51.720 --> 0:30:55.800 exist then as a possible sentence, and so what happened 0:30:55.840 --> 0:30:58.040 was they had to they had to immediately be placed 0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:02.200 into a regular kind of paroling situation, which was probably 0:31:02.240 --> 0:31:05.680 inappropriate for them, but they were the only three for 0:31:05.760 --> 0:31:08.200 those years, and then of course now there's just the 0:31:08.200 --> 0:31:08.760 one left. 0:31:10.080 --> 0:31:10.480 Wow. 0:31:10.960 --> 0:31:13.960 I know you read the police report for the first 0:31:14.000 --> 0:31:17.560 time for the book. How did you take care of 0:31:17.600 --> 0:31:21.920 your mental health while reading writing this book? 0:31:22.160 --> 0:31:26.200 Yeah, that was a really hard day. That's one of 0:31:26.240 --> 0:31:28.920 the places where in the book I say I'm going 0:31:28.960 --> 0:31:32.040 to be gone a while. Yeah, yeah, I'll check that 0:31:32.040 --> 0:31:34.640 again in a bit, and I did. I took a 0:31:34.640 --> 0:31:39.880 few weeks after the first insertion into that report, I mean. 0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:43.040 And then the most devastating thing about it was the 0:31:45.480 --> 0:31:49.720 was the lack of identity for Karen, was that she 0:31:49.880 --> 0:31:51.960 was just a thing, just a girl, a Jane Doe, 0:31:52.000 --> 0:31:57.360 a corpse, and the language reflected that, you know, ongoing investigation, 0:31:57.440 --> 0:32:00.800 ongoing investigation on going first couple of her pages, they 0:32:00.800 --> 0:32:03.440 had no idea what had happened or who she was, 0:32:04.160 --> 0:32:08.720 and to read that just felt so dehumanizing about my sister. 0:32:09.040 --> 0:32:11.880 You know it, just call me, well, that's that's Karen. 0:32:12.720 --> 0:32:16.360 Surely you know that, right. But they didn't. 0:32:16.800 --> 0:32:17.240 It's okay. 0:32:17.320 --> 0:32:20.080 They were doing their job and you know, it got done. 0:32:20.160 --> 0:32:23.240 I mean. And frankly, the police works fascinating to me 0:32:23.320 --> 0:32:26.320 in terms of you know, capital cases, I guess, but 0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:31.080 they didn't really. They had a stroke of luck when 0:32:32.160 --> 0:32:35.000 one of the guys was arrested in New Orleans, and 0:32:35.040 --> 0:32:38.560 he said, I know about the girl in Colorado. That's 0:32:38.560 --> 0:32:41.480 how it came up. And then a couple of days 0:32:41.520 --> 0:32:43.040 later they called me, So. 0:32:57.000 --> 0:32:58.960 Have you ever I'm sure the answer is yes. Have 0:32:59.040 --> 0:33:02.240 you ever thought about out what Karen would have done 0:33:02.280 --> 0:33:03.320 with the rest of her life? 0:33:03.560 --> 0:33:06.560 Oh? Yeah, all the time. Yeah, I'm not sure what 0:33:06.560 --> 0:33:08.200 it would have been, but she was she was kind 0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:10.880 of a wild animal, you know. Really, she was really 0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:14.600 a fun person. But she loved everybody, and she loved animals, 0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:16.719 so I you know, I pictures it might have been 0:33:16.760 --> 0:33:20.040 on a farm somewhere. Her last her last year was 0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:24.160 pretty much spent around at least the last summer, but 0:33:24.160 --> 0:33:26.320 pore she went to Colorado was spent around animals on 0:33:26.360 --> 0:33:30.160 a friend of ours branchi and in upstate Florida in 0:33:30.160 --> 0:33:33.320 a little town called we Laka, which was it was 0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:35.479 pretty fun. It was great. And I visited her there 0:33:35.520 --> 0:33:38.600 once and there was a wonderful swimming pole. It was 0:33:39.280 --> 0:33:40.600 it was so weird. It was like it was like 0:33:40.640 --> 0:33:44.440 one hundred and fifty feet deep and was ice cold water, 0:33:45.080 --> 0:33:48.200 clear blue, and it was only like twelve feet across, 0:33:48.360 --> 0:33:53.200 but you jump in it and go this is amazing experience. 0:33:53.240 --> 0:33:54.840 And she and a couple of her friends were there, 0:33:54.880 --> 0:33:57.760 and we all loved each other. I mean, her pals 0:33:57.880 --> 0:33:59.920 and my pals. We all, we all, you know, spent 0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:02.520 time together, and it was it was a great way 0:34:02.520 --> 0:34:06.600 to grow up. We were a close group of young people. 0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:10.040 And it's funny, Yeah, we didn't really see much of 0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:16.040 our parents, weren't really around anyway. But uh we were 0:34:16.080 --> 0:34:18.920 just a really nice group of kids exploring things, trying 0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:21.200 things together, listening to music, you know, led that book 0:34:21.719 --> 0:34:25.120 the Beatles, and yeah, James Taylor. It was. It was 0:34:25.160 --> 0:34:29.319 a wonderful world, wonderful time, and it was kind of 0:34:29.320 --> 0:34:31.520 an innocence and it did seem like it didn't seem 0:34:31.560 --> 0:34:34.520 like a lot of people were getting hurt too much. 0:34:35.440 --> 0:34:37.040 Every It was sort of accepting the fact that, oh, 0:34:37.040 --> 0:34:39.920 we're exploring things, we're we're together, we're liking you know, 0:34:40.040 --> 0:34:43.800 this this experience, we're growing up together, and uh, I 0:34:44.000 --> 0:34:46.239 I kind of miss it. I don't know what. I 0:34:46.280 --> 0:34:47.480 don't know what we would have done if we were 0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:51.520 just on iPhones and stuff. It seems seems to be 0:34:51.560 --> 0:34:53.800 more impersonal now. And we were always there was always 0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:57.240 a group of us together you know, yeah, just trying things. 0:34:57.640 --> 0:34:59.440 That was That was nice. 0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:03.120 You have been open for years and in the book 0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:07.320 about your own struggles with self medicating and some reckless behavior, 0:35:07.680 --> 0:35:10.399 no doubt connected to what you have faced. How did 0:35:10.440 --> 0:35:11.520 you stop that cycle? 0:35:12.360 --> 0:35:17.640 Yeah, it's interesting I did do. I did about six 0:35:17.760 --> 0:35:22.160 years kind of actively in the in the program, you know, 0:35:22.200 --> 0:35:24.400 an AA twelve step kind of thing. But I've actually 0:35:24.440 --> 0:35:29.200 turned more toward God after that, okay, and realized that, oh, 0:35:29.480 --> 0:35:33.640 that's probably the avenue for me, like your sense of 0:35:33.680 --> 0:35:36.719 faith and offensive sense of strength and connection to God. 0:35:38.480 --> 0:35:40.520 And one thing that one of the guys I knew, 0:35:40.520 --> 0:35:42.240 who was kind of an old timer and the AA 0:35:42.360 --> 0:35:47.759 had said, he said, well, you know, the cause of 0:35:47.840 --> 0:35:55.880 addiction is unresolved grief. M That really makes sense for me. Yeah, 0:35:55.880 --> 0:35:58.120 and in a lot of ways, I got to resolve it. 0:35:58.160 --> 0:36:01.520 And once that happened, you know, uh, it was pretty 0:36:01.520 --> 0:36:03.160 smooth sale. And I mean I still have a drink 0:36:03.160 --> 0:36:05.920 once in a while, and I enjoy a party with 0:36:05.960 --> 0:36:10.880 my friends and Christmas Eve sometimes I'll have you know, 0:36:10.960 --> 0:36:17.040 one toddy too many, but it's pretty but it lost 0:36:17.040 --> 0:36:19.960 its teeth to like stop me from living, you know, 0:36:20.440 --> 0:36:27.120 for a long time, I allowed myself to have it 0:36:27.160 --> 0:36:29.759 abrupt me, have it, have it stop me, you know, 0:36:30.200 --> 0:36:32.800 have it shift me away from the things I wanted 0:36:32.840 --> 0:36:35.399 to do. And that was that's that's the mistake you make. 0:36:35.440 --> 0:36:38.240 I mean, and I think, yeah, there's clearly there's clearly 0:36:38.280 --> 0:36:42.239 a component of it. There's a disease that's like you 0:36:42.280 --> 0:36:44.560 could do, I say, a functional disease. I suppose, But 0:36:45.120 --> 0:36:47.400 it's a disease you can get over, you know. I 0:36:47.440 --> 0:36:49.879 mean my son, my son, one of my sons has 0:36:50.120 --> 0:36:53.319 O c D. And I said, honey, it's okay to 0:36:53.480 --> 0:36:56.000 like have oct but don't let it have you. And 0:36:56.640 --> 0:36:59.120 it may be an oversimplification, but you can make that 0:36:59.200 --> 0:37:02.200 decision about things like that. Yeah, you don't have to 0:37:02.320 --> 0:37:02.960 let it have you. 0:37:03.520 --> 0:37:03.719 Yeah. 0:37:04.120 --> 0:37:06.680 So, I I mean, I hope my message about you know, 0:37:07.440 --> 0:37:11.040 alcoholism or addiction is an encouraging one because it needn't 0:37:11.120 --> 0:37:15.000 have you. You don't have to let it take that place 0:37:15.040 --> 0:37:18.520 in your life. It's pretty tempting, that's, you know. And 0:37:18.560 --> 0:37:20.360 there are moments when you think, oh, pole asture, do 0:37:20.520 --> 0:37:22.960 need that? But then it goes away. 0:37:23.440 --> 0:37:23.920 Yeah. 0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:26.799 Yeah, that the same guy, It's same guy years ago, 0:37:27.320 --> 0:37:28.840 he said to me. He said, well, you know, eventually 0:37:29.120 --> 0:37:31.960 the natch you know, becomes a good thing. And then 0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:33.759 he said, and this whole thing one day at a time, 0:37:33.800 --> 0:37:37.880 he said, nonsense. You know, after a while, you know 0:37:38.360 --> 0:37:40.399 you don't have to think about one day at a time. 0:37:40.440 --> 0:37:42.960 He said, you know, it helps it first when you're 0:37:43.080 --> 0:37:44.640 kind of a newby to think, well, if if I 0:37:44.640 --> 0:37:48.040 can get through a day without drinking, that's at least something, 0:37:48.480 --> 0:37:50.200 you know, he says, Noah, yeah, eventually you just know 0:37:50.239 --> 0:37:53.359 you're not going to be going down that path. Yeah, yeah, 0:37:53.360 --> 0:37:56.919 that's it. But that grief thing really helped, And hence 0:37:56.960 --> 0:37:58.200 the reason for the book in a lot of ways, 0:37:58.280 --> 0:38:01.360 was to offer people to a context for why you 0:38:01.400 --> 0:38:03.880 would live that way or why your grief would be overwhelming, 0:38:04.440 --> 0:38:06.680 and to see that you can actually move on and 0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:08.600 you can actually take it and have it incorporated into 0:38:08.600 --> 0:38:11.000 your life. So that the book was always meant to 0:38:11.000 --> 0:38:16.759 be a kind of not an admonishment, but but a 0:38:16.800 --> 0:38:20.759 kind of an encouragement to say to somebody, remember the 0:38:20.960 --> 0:38:24.680 joy as of course, remember is you know the word 0:38:24.840 --> 0:38:29.840 that I you know, really focus on, but that gift 0:38:29.880 --> 0:38:31.640 that those people gave you in your life, the thing 0:38:31.760 --> 0:38:35.520 you're missing need to be missing all the time. You know, 0:38:35.600 --> 0:38:41.279 you can reclaim that joy and and you can weep 0:38:41.320 --> 0:38:45.520 that it's lost, but it's not lost. You still have it. 0:38:45.880 --> 0:38:47.360 You still have it. It's up to you to go 0:38:47.360 --> 0:38:50.799 ahead and dive in there and open the page and say, Hi, 0:38:51.239 --> 0:38:52.560 I miss you, I love you. 0:38:54.480 --> 0:38:54.959 That's great. 0:38:55.360 --> 0:38:58.200 So speaking of joy, then I have to ask what 0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:02.439 meant more or to you? The greatest moment you've ever 0:39:02.480 --> 0:39:03.720 experienced as an actor? 0:39:04.840 --> 0:39:06.120 Or that day water skiing. 0:39:06.960 --> 0:39:14.560 Oh yeah, there's only so many of those, you get right, 0:39:16.520 --> 0:39:19.759 that end the surfing day, the surf I disappeared through 0:39:19.760 --> 0:39:22.640 the wave. I just uh, those were still the defining 0:39:22.640 --> 0:39:25.000 moments of my understanding where I am in the universon 0:39:25.320 --> 0:39:28.759 where the universe is with me. I still have them, 0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:32.560 they're still in there. But yeah, to remember what was 0:39:32.600 --> 0:39:35.440 great about that that session with Esther, which was the 0:39:35.440 --> 0:39:39.840 water angel thing. Uh, I'd never seen it through Karen's eyes, 0:39:40.960 --> 0:39:43.279 and that was the gift that she gave me that day, 0:39:44.080 --> 0:39:49.160 was to see her vision of watching this boy in 0:39:49.200 --> 0:39:49.600 the water. 0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:53.800 You know, yeah, wow, amazing. Do you still ride a motorcycle? 0:39:54.400 --> 0:39:58.320 I do not as much? You know, my wife. 0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:03.759 We had eight I mean, well, but. 0:40:04.239 --> 0:40:06.439 I will get another one. 0:40:08.719 --> 0:40:10.319 I tell you the way you talked about your dog 0:40:10.400 --> 0:40:12.600 and the way you talked about your bike, just how 0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:13.799 important things were. 0:40:13.840 --> 0:40:18.680 They were absolutely like, you know, talismans of my life. 0:40:18.960 --> 0:40:24.040 Absolutely touch those. Yeah, that motorcycle, it was a great bike. 0:40:24.239 --> 0:40:27.440 I mean there was one time, and I think it's 0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:30.920 called the Texas Canyon. I was doing about one hundred 0:40:30.920 --> 0:40:33.400 and thirty miles an hour. Oh my god, and it 0:40:33.520 --> 0:40:38.160 was just heaven. There was nobody. There was nobody on 0:40:38.200 --> 0:40:42.520 the road. It was a beautiful highway. And uh, you know, 0:40:42.560 --> 0:40:44.400 there's this thing you do, but when you're going fast 0:40:44.400 --> 0:40:46.879 on a motorcycle, you know, it's like you understand where 0:40:46.880 --> 0:40:50.040 the center of gravity is right. And when you're really 0:40:50.080 --> 0:40:53.160 going fast and you go deep into a turn, you 0:40:53.239 --> 0:40:55.960 don't decelerate. You have to accelerate. You have to you 0:40:55.960 --> 0:40:58.399 have to crank it up a little bit. And then 0:40:58.440 --> 0:41:00.560 once you crank it just a bit, the bikes stands up, 0:41:01.080 --> 0:41:04.280 the bike finds its center again, and you just feel 0:41:04.360 --> 0:41:06.960 so safe and secure on it. I mean, it's insane, 0:41:07.320 --> 0:41:11.440 but it's not. It's just you have this the sense 0:41:11.560 --> 0:41:15.680 like I am completely rooted to the universe in this moment, 0:41:15.719 --> 0:41:17.799 with this man made machine that is part of me, 0:41:17.920 --> 0:41:20.200 that is part of the earth. It is one of 0:41:20.200 --> 0:41:23.560 those expressions of existence. I guess it just it just 0:41:23.600 --> 0:41:26.160 blows your mind and it's so wonderful. And you know 0:41:26.200 --> 0:41:28.840 you're going somewhere. I mean, we're doing one hundred and 0:41:28.880 --> 0:41:32.719 thirty miles an hour through you know, Savage country. You 0:41:32.760 --> 0:41:36.480 know they look like John Ford the landscapes, desert scapes 0:41:36.560 --> 0:41:38.680 up John Wayne movies. And I was going on, you know, 0:41:38.880 --> 0:41:41.000 co Cheese Valley or whatever. I was going, Man, this 0:41:41.120 --> 0:41:42.239 is fantastic. 0:41:42.239 --> 0:41:50.120 And something in the motorcycle maintenance exactly exactly what it was. 0:41:50.320 --> 0:41:54.000 It was that experience. And I mean, I'm an eternal 0:41:54.080 --> 0:41:56.879 juvenile when it comes down to that. It's just fantastic. 0:41:57.200 --> 0:41:57.720 That's great. 0:41:58.000 --> 0:42:01.440 In your long Hollywood career, you have been a producer 0:42:01.760 --> 0:42:02.680 multiple times. 0:42:02.840 --> 0:42:06.400 Have you ever thought of turning Karen's story into a movie? 0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:09.960 You know what, I haven't, but there are there were 0:42:10.000 --> 0:42:12.759 some people talking to us now about the possibility of it, 0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:16.200 and and you know, I'm giving it some thought. I'm 0:42:16.200 --> 0:42:16.919 giving it some thoughts. 0:42:16.920 --> 0:42:17.440 You're it. 0:42:18.000 --> 0:42:20.040 The important thing for me, and writing the book as well, 0:42:20.120 --> 0:42:24.120 was to to invite people into the joy that we'd 0:42:24.120 --> 0:42:28.320 had together because growing up was wonderful. Growing up together 0:42:28.440 --> 0:42:30.719 was wonderful. Karen and I together was it was a 0:42:30.760 --> 0:42:33.279 great thing. I was closer to her than any other 0:42:33.360 --> 0:42:36.600 human being in my entire life, and it just felt 0:42:36.719 --> 0:42:39.520 it just fell that way. And that story when when 0:42:39.800 --> 0:42:41.759 Estra said, you know, I said, looks like I just 0:42:41.840 --> 0:42:43.600 was writing and I realized, oh my god, she's the 0:42:43.600 --> 0:42:46.239 love of my life. And she said yes. And how 0:42:46.320 --> 0:42:50.040 fortunate that you guys were born into the same family. Hmm, 0:42:50.280 --> 0:42:53.120 you didn't have to spend your life looking for each other. Yeah, 0:42:53.160 --> 0:42:56.040 there you were. And she said, yes, you've lived many 0:42:56.080 --> 0:42:57.759 lives together. Because you know, this is when they start 0:42:57.800 --> 0:42:59.680 talking about I don't know if I buy all that stuff, 0:43:00.080 --> 0:43:03.000 what I kind of do? You know? I'm living in 0:43:03.160 --> 0:43:06.480 LA you know we got All's the guy that reads 0:43:06.840 --> 0:43:09.640 auras and angels and says, oh, yeah, you've got one 0:43:09.719 --> 0:43:11.279 right there. You're telling you right now. He goes like, 0:43:13.640 --> 0:43:17.200 is he talking to But he told me once he 0:43:17.280 --> 0:43:19.680 told me, he said, you've lived two thy four hundred 0:43:19.719 --> 0:43:20.960 and eighty five lives. 0:43:23.040 --> 0:43:28.799 Okay, they're busy, busy, and you. 0:43:28.719 --> 0:43:30.440 Know, whenever I go to an airport, I look at 0:43:30.480 --> 0:43:32.560 all those airplanes and I see you know a quantas 0:43:32.800 --> 0:43:38.359 or you know cathe or you know whatever emirates or whatever, 0:43:38.400 --> 0:43:41.680 And I think to myself, what I was? You know, 0:43:42.360 --> 0:43:44.040 have I actually lived that many lives? And I've been 0:43:44.040 --> 0:43:47.120 at all those places from from all those places. So 0:43:47.160 --> 0:43:50.160 there's this weird thing that resonates with me. You know, 0:43:50.160 --> 0:43:52.239 it probably resonates with you guys too. You think maybe 0:43:52.239 --> 0:43:55.920 I've been an adventurer of it. Yeah, I circumnavigate the 0:43:55.920 --> 0:43:58.040 globe once, if you still believe it's a globe, you know. 0:43:58.120 --> 0:44:00.040 So you know, I've got a whole bunch of. 0:44:01.600 --> 0:44:03.799 Science that. 0:44:09.920 --> 0:44:12.200 It would be a wonderful film, Danielle, that now I'm 0:44:12.200 --> 0:44:13.520 thinking about it as a film, it would be It 0:44:13.560 --> 0:44:15.120 would be a wonderful film to see. 0:44:15.800 --> 0:44:18.560 It would definitely be a sumptuous kind of revisiting of 0:44:18.600 --> 0:44:19.600 the seventies. 0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:22.200 Yeah, I'm curious. 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:24.520 I know your your sister would be difficult to answer, 0:44:24.560 --> 0:44:26.759 But who would you cast to play your grandfather? 0:44:29.680 --> 0:44:32.920 I'm trying to think of an actor that I was interesting. 0:44:33.239 --> 0:44:36.600 You know, that's a really good question. Was such a 0:44:37.480 --> 0:44:41.200 monumental guy? I mean I really looked up to him. 0:44:41.440 --> 0:44:43.640 Yeah, you could tell you definitely could tell. 0:44:44.680 --> 0:44:47.279 I've known very few people like him who seemed to 0:44:47.320 --> 0:44:51.040 show up, you know, just as surely as the sun 0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:53.920 was going to rise that day, he was in it. 0:44:54.000 --> 0:44:57.759 And there that's a great question I'm going to have 0:44:57.760 --> 0:44:59.840 to get back to you on. 0:45:00.200 --> 0:45:02.160 I'm so curious because you touched on it a little 0:45:02.160 --> 0:45:02.640 bit in the book. 0:45:02.640 --> 0:45:06.520 But I'm the idea that right before he passed he 0:45:07.040 --> 0:45:10.040 actually opened up about the war and being at Guadalcanal. 0:45:10.719 --> 0:45:12.600 Do you think and you touched on a little bit, 0:45:12.640 --> 0:45:14.760 you said you weren't quite sure, But looking back. 0:45:14.560 --> 0:45:16.279 Do you think he knew he was sick? 0:45:17.560 --> 0:45:20.719 You know what, I kind of do, But I don't 0:45:20.760 --> 0:45:26.640 know if he was ready to acknowledge it right. You know, 0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:29.600 I'm not even sure if he actually got a proper diagnosis, 0:45:29.640 --> 0:45:33.640 because everybody seemed pretty pretty surprised when he checked in 0:45:33.719 --> 0:45:37.279 and he got the diagnosis that he was riddled with, 0:45:37.640 --> 0:45:42.320 you know, c and well everybody's what you know, and 0:45:42.719 --> 0:45:45.600 including him, So it's a I think he sensed that 0:45:45.680 --> 0:45:50.360 he was going But that night, when he opened up 0:45:50.360 --> 0:45:52.040 to me about what had happened to him, was the 0:45:52.040 --> 0:45:55.000 first time he spoke to me as a man. I 0:45:55.080 --> 0:45:57.600 think that was part of it. Yeah. I think part 0:45:57.640 --> 0:45:59.520 of what he was trying to negotiate with me, or 0:45:59.560 --> 0:46:03.239 at least kind of a massage in me, was that 0:46:03.440 --> 0:46:08.320 you're on a you're at the sort of precipice of 0:46:08.440 --> 0:46:12.480 real manhood, and tragedy will will visit you, and you 0:46:12.600 --> 0:46:15.080 will You need to know how to maintain your character 0:46:15.200 --> 0:46:18.239 in the face of what seems like the impossible. And 0:46:18.440 --> 0:46:24.680 I think maybe that's what that lesson was. And to 0:46:24.800 --> 0:46:28.360 understand that in his heart it had been broken. I 0:46:28.400 --> 0:46:31.560 think that he had lived with a broken heart for 0:46:31.640 --> 0:46:34.560 a long time and was still brave about it because 0:46:34.600 --> 0:46:35.920 I mean, you know, he lost his mom when he 0:46:35.920 --> 0:46:39.799 was little. His brother blamed him extraordinary things, and he 0:46:39.880 --> 0:46:42.359 was a man of great accomplishment Captain of the crew 0:46:42.400 --> 0:46:47.080 at Berkeley, which was pretty interesting. Wow. Yeah, he's a 0:46:47.280 --> 0:46:52.000 dynamic guy and he did his part, and he was 0:46:52.080 --> 0:46:54.680 kind of uh in terms of World War Two, he 0:46:54.760 --> 0:46:57.120 was he was you know, he knew we were manipulating 0:46:57.160 --> 0:46:58.759 in that war. He thought he knew that, you know, 0:46:59.280 --> 0:47:02.799 Roosevelt kind of made plans to fight a war well 0:47:02.840 --> 0:47:06.480 before we were in it, and he didn't like that, 0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:09.719 but he went anyway. I mean, he left for two 0:47:09.760 --> 0:47:14.040 and a half years and didn't didn't have his wife 0:47:14.120 --> 0:47:19.920 or his daughter with him. And yeah, they're just amazing people, amazing. 0:47:20.920 --> 0:47:24.479 I did want to ask a work related question. We 0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:29.560 have often mentioned the pilot of Cheers as an absolutely 0:47:30.080 --> 0:47:33.840 perfect episode of TV on this podcasts. 0:47:34.000 --> 0:47:36.880 Did you know immediately Cheers was something special? 0:47:37.960 --> 0:47:47.520 Yeah, yeah, I mean Fraser. When I joined Cheers, it 0:47:47.560 --> 0:47:49.480 was like, yeah, that was special too. I mean, I 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:51.959 am actually writing about that right now. They're just too good, 0:47:52.360 --> 0:47:57.239 so discover it again. But but Fraser was one of 0:47:57.239 --> 0:47:59.399 those things where it just came right off the page 0:47:59.440 --> 0:48:01.719 at some point, this is this is good now. I've 0:48:01.719 --> 0:48:03.840 heard Jimmy Burrows talk about the pilot of Cheers and 0:48:03.880 --> 0:48:06.479 said the same thing. He said, you know, they'd written 0:48:06.520 --> 0:48:08.120 a script that was He said it was a script 0:48:08.120 --> 0:48:09.960 for radio. He says, you could have done that script 0:48:10.000 --> 0:48:14.600 success without ever seeing it. So I think that's that's 0:48:14.600 --> 0:48:16.520 a really good indication of what it could be. And 0:48:16.560 --> 0:48:18.880 I think I think Fraser had the same hallmark to it. 0:48:19.760 --> 0:48:21.920 We had some fun with it. We got we did 0:48:21.960 --> 0:48:24.280 a rehearsal of it once and got a standing ovation 0:48:24.440 --> 0:48:28.440 from a full house and thought, well, that's weird. We 0:48:28.440 --> 0:48:31.120 weren't even filming yet. And that's when David came up 0:48:31.120 --> 0:48:32.200 to me and said, say, he said, what do you 0:48:32.280 --> 0:48:34.080 what do you think this means? And I said, honestly, 0:48:35.080 --> 0:48:36.200 I think it means you're going to be able to 0:48:36.239 --> 0:48:40.520 buy a house. He said, what doesn't mean for you? 0:48:40.560 --> 0:48:42.560 And I said, I think I'm going to be able 0:48:42.560 --> 0:48:43.520 to buy two houses? 0:48:46.080 --> 0:48:50.600 Well, I mean that's I'm the resident television addict and historian. 0:48:50.640 --> 0:48:51.000 I love it. 0:48:51.040 --> 0:48:53.640 And I know that there were times where I won't 0:48:53.640 --> 0:48:56.120 get into names, but other cast members of Cheers would 0:48:56.160 --> 0:48:57.759 sit there at the table read and say, man, we 0:48:57.840 --> 0:48:58.279 really got. 0:48:58.200 --> 0:48:59.360 To get rid of the Fraser character. 0:48:59.680 --> 0:49:02.920 Yeah, well where you know, there were times it was 0:49:03.040 --> 0:49:06.399 very difficult and and and some people didn't even want 0:49:06.400 --> 0:49:10.080 the character around. To then become what Fraser became, it 0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:12.160 was truly amazing. Yeah, truly extraordiny. 0:49:12.280 --> 0:49:13.040 It's a reflex. 0:49:14.680 --> 0:49:16.680 And I have to ask, just because I'm such a fan, 0:49:16.800 --> 0:49:19.400 what is working with James Burrows? 0:49:19.560 --> 0:49:23.960 Like, Uh, Jimmy just knows his story, you know, he 0:49:24.000 --> 0:49:30.080 knows the story he wants to tell. He's I called 0:49:30.080 --> 0:49:33.160 a requisite disrespect he has. He has no particular respect 0:49:33.200 --> 0:49:34.960 for anything he's doing except that he just knows what 0:49:35.000 --> 0:49:38.680 he's doing, and it's just on an automatic pilot. You 0:49:38.680 --> 0:49:41.160 don't get there unless you've done it long enough. Right now, 0:49:41.280 --> 0:49:43.120 this is the this is the thing. You know. I'm 0:49:43.160 --> 0:49:45.120 all for it, trying to give people jobs and stuff, 0:49:45.120 --> 0:49:48.320 But we got the last decade or so, we're giving people, 0:49:48.920 --> 0:49:52.840 you know, directorships to people who've never directed, and you 0:49:52.960 --> 0:49:54.400 keep thinking, what the hell are we doing this for? 0:49:54.480 --> 0:49:55.880 And there was a whole bunch of reasons for it, 0:49:55.920 --> 0:49:59.080 but lack of preparation destroyed a lot of TV lately. 0:50:00.000 --> 0:50:02.360 Pople just weren't showing up. They didn't know how. Jimmy 0:50:02.360 --> 0:50:04.480 Burrow shows up. He always shows up. He always knows how. 0:50:04.640 --> 0:50:06.319 He sees what's wrong with the character, he sees what's 0:50:06.360 --> 0:50:08.080 wrong with the story. He can look at it in 0:50:08.080 --> 0:50:10.520 two seconds and say, well, you got to write that better, 0:50:10.640 --> 0:50:14.600 or you got to you don't need that. And and 0:50:14.840 --> 0:50:17.319 because he's earned the sort of respect that he has 0:50:17.320 --> 0:50:19.480 in the industry, people just take the note and do 0:50:19.520 --> 0:50:24.120 it right. It's very hard to find younger writers, especially 0:50:24.200 --> 0:50:27.120 these days, who will actually take a note. You know, 0:50:27.120 --> 0:50:29.080 and you think, you guys got to get the got 0:50:29.120 --> 0:50:31.680 to get the hang of comedy. Comedy is a collaborative effort. Man. 0:50:31.760 --> 0:50:34.560 It's not like you're sitting in some closet thinking about 0:50:34.640 --> 0:50:36.399 what's funny, and then there's a bunch of actors who 0:50:36.719 --> 0:50:38.440 don't know how to make it funny, and you think 0:50:38.480 --> 0:50:44.640 it's their fault. Some of the funniest, most talent people 0:50:44.640 --> 0:50:46.840 in the world sitting there doing their best and it 0:50:46.840 --> 0:50:47.680 ain't funny. 0:50:47.840 --> 0:50:52.120 Right, Maybe do you think sitcom is gone? Do you 0:50:52.160 --> 0:50:54.719 think the sitcom that we know and love is ever 0:50:54.760 --> 0:50:55.319 going to come back? 0:50:55.400 --> 0:50:58.239 I don't think so. Actually, I think I think it's 0:50:58.360 --> 0:51:01.120 being gradually sort of reintroduce. Now. We tried with the 0:51:01.160 --> 0:51:03.359 new Fraser, and you know, there was some resistance over 0:51:03.920 --> 0:51:06.880 Paramount Plus and they didn't quite know what to do that. 0:51:06.920 --> 0:51:09.400 I think they may have even devalued the project as 0:51:09.440 --> 0:51:13.799 a result. But we were close. We were close. I 0:51:13.920 --> 0:51:16.040 really liked the new show and I loved where it 0:51:16.080 --> 0:51:17.520 was going to go. But we haven't really done more 0:51:17.520 --> 0:51:21.040 than one season of it, right. We did twenty shows, right, 0:51:21.120 --> 0:51:23.879 so that would have been oh, hi, now we know. 0:51:23.840 --> 0:51:25.520 Who you are, right exactly. 0:51:25.920 --> 0:51:28.600 There's the show now, and now we get the next 0:51:28.719 --> 0:51:32.239 nine years, which is I mean the first year to 0:51:32.239 --> 0:51:34.080 figure all that stuff out and have people fall in 0:51:34.120 --> 0:51:37.200 love with the characters. Again, I thought we were well 0:51:37.200 --> 0:51:38.800 on our way, but they didn't know what to do 0:51:38.840 --> 0:51:42.480 with it. You know. What's happening though now behind the scenes, 0:51:42.480 --> 0:51:45.560 what I'm hearing is, you know, Amazon wants to put 0:51:45.560 --> 0:51:49.720 commercials on. They want to make programming maybe just once 0:51:49.719 --> 0:51:50.080 a week. 0:51:50.800 --> 0:51:52.000 They want to go back to network TV. 0:51:52.080 --> 0:52:00.759 So what a great idea. It's kind of ext but 0:52:00.880 --> 0:52:04.800 I mean, I know, I'm it is a wonderful medium. 0:52:04.840 --> 0:52:06.560 I didn't like sitcoms when I was a kid because 0:52:06.560 --> 0:52:08.879 I thought, well, it's not theater, it's not TV, so hey, 0:52:09.080 --> 0:52:10.719 you know, but it was a bit of a snob 0:52:10.800 --> 0:52:11.239 and a joke. 0:52:11.360 --> 0:52:15.440 So right understands. 0:52:18.239 --> 0:52:20.640 Now it's the most wonderful way to kind of relate 0:52:20.680 --> 0:52:23.360 to the audience. It's the indulge you he acknowledge the audience. 0:52:23.400 --> 0:52:26.239 You know they're there, that they laugh, you have you 0:52:26.320 --> 0:52:29.840 play to them. Uh, And that's what entertainment has always 0:52:29.840 --> 0:52:34.920 really been, you know. I at one point what happened 0:52:34.960 --> 0:52:36.759 to Fraser when Fraser was you know, but the first 0:52:36.800 --> 0:52:39.000 five years we were just swimming, and then they introduced 0:52:39.000 --> 0:52:43.640 this show called When the Animals Turn on their owners. 0:52:43.440 --> 0:52:50.280 When animals attack. Yeah, right, we're competing with taking. 0:52:52.480 --> 0:52:56.080 Kidding me? Who wants to sup crap like that? But 0:52:56.160 --> 0:52:57.560 you know when you put an alligator next to a 0:52:57.600 --> 0:52:59.839 guy and you see him chopping, you know you think, well, yeah, 0:52:59.840 --> 0:53:05.960 I sound like to see that the different world. I thought, well, 0:53:06.000 --> 0:53:07.839 how the hell did that happen? And then of course 0:53:07.840 --> 0:53:09.719 then we got to sex and the City and a 0:53:09.719 --> 0:53:12.520 couple of By then they started the single camera comedy, 0:53:12.800 --> 0:53:14.440 which of course they didn't know what to do to 0:53:14.800 --> 0:53:18.200 make you laugh, so they ended up putting calypso music. 0:53:18.200 --> 0:53:20.799 Whenever a laugh track would have been right, you know, 0:53:20.920 --> 0:53:22.960 they just said, they just said, well, here's your cue, 0:53:23.280 --> 0:53:31.760 this is your kye. Now you can laugh. Yeah. Yeah, 0:53:34.560 --> 0:53:39.759 they talk about a funny thing happened on the way 0:53:39.760 --> 0:53:45.320 to the forum. In in previews that musical, it was dead. 0:53:45.680 --> 0:53:48.040 They thought, what the hell are we gonna do? It 0:53:48.080 --> 0:53:50.160 doesn't light up, it doesn't spark, it doesn't go. And 0:53:50.200 --> 0:53:52.719 then somebody said, well, let's tell them it's okay to laugh. 0:53:53.600 --> 0:53:57.840 And the first thing they wrote a song called comedy Tonight, 0:53:59.000 --> 0:54:04.040 and that's what opens it to night. And then suddenly 0:54:04.080 --> 0:54:05.200 it turned around and the show. 0:54:05.080 --> 0:54:06.839 Is a success. 0:54:06.920 --> 0:54:08.960 So you've got to give them permission to laugh, right, 0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:10.799 So you have to find some way to do it. 0:54:10.840 --> 0:54:12.480 You got to give an audience the wink of the 0:54:12.480 --> 0:54:14.759 eye somewhere and say, come on in, we're going to 0:54:14.840 --> 0:54:18.400 have some fun. Yeah. Yeah, so they traded out with 0:54:18.640 --> 0:54:21.960 you know, it's not canned laughter, it's actually recorded laughter 0:54:22.000 --> 0:54:22.880 from the actual event. 0:54:23.040 --> 0:54:23.320 Yes. 0:54:23.520 --> 0:54:26.000 Well, there were some shows where they would can't do it, 0:54:26.000 --> 0:54:28.719 you know years ago Dick Van Dyke show. Sure, no 0:54:28.760 --> 0:54:31.360 audience for that. Yeah, but it worked. 0:54:32.600 --> 0:54:37.480 My last question for you, if anyone is newly facing grief, 0:54:37.960 --> 0:54:39.880 like a listener has just stumbled into the death of 0:54:39.880 --> 0:54:42.680 a loved one, what is your advice to them, Considering 0:54:42.719 --> 0:54:44.000 all the work you've done to survive. 0:54:44.440 --> 0:54:49.520 Yeah, you have to accept this now, you're not going 0:54:49.520 --> 0:54:54.480 to get over it. It's always going to be there. 0:54:55.560 --> 0:55:01.840 And let it be impossible, Let it be awful for 0:55:01.880 --> 0:55:08.160 a while. Yeah, because you can't. You can't have it 0:55:08.200 --> 0:55:11.839 go away. You just need to let it breathe and 0:55:11.880 --> 0:55:15.160 breathing you and miss that person and then slowly try 0:55:15.200 --> 0:55:19.719 to climb out and remember what was good between you 0:55:19.840 --> 0:55:22.680 and hope that you know there is justice in the world. 0:55:23.440 --> 0:55:25.719 There really isn't a lot of the time, right, But 0:55:26.640 --> 0:55:28.239 I mean, what's happened with it, you know, some of 0:55:28.239 --> 0:55:30.440 the highly publicized stuff that's going on lately. I mean, 0:55:30.480 --> 0:55:33.160 not of those poor people have lost their their loved ones, 0:55:33.160 --> 0:55:35.879 and those beautiful young women have been killed. I mean, 0:55:35.880 --> 0:55:41.560 it's just awful, awful, and to die that way, well, 0:55:41.840 --> 0:55:44.040 it is, I guess, part of the human story, you know, 0:55:44.320 --> 0:55:47.600 But it's been going on for thousands and thousands of years. 0:55:48.239 --> 0:55:53.760 Tragic endings and horrible circumstances and people's disregard for one another. 0:55:54.360 --> 0:55:57.680 But through it all, you have a right to embrace 0:55:57.760 --> 0:56:01.960 the memory of that person and remember them, as I've 0:56:01.960 --> 0:56:05.920 said before, in the in the sumpture of their lives, 0:56:06.200 --> 0:56:10.480 and then the joy that they brought you. And it 0:56:10.840 --> 0:56:14.520 may not bring solace now, but in time, the memories 0:56:14.520 --> 0:56:17.560 of those people, that first smile you had, the first 0:56:17.920 --> 0:56:20.640 the first kiss they gave you, the first hug you felt, 0:56:20.640 --> 0:56:22.719 the first time you wept for them because they were 0:56:22.719 --> 0:56:26.280 in pain, whatever, all those things are precious gifts about 0:56:26.719 --> 0:56:31.840 what means in life, what means eventually everything to you 0:56:31.880 --> 0:56:34.719 in life. Those are the only things that actually mean anything. Yeah, 0:56:34.920 --> 0:56:38.040 that is that connection and someone took it away, and 0:56:38.080 --> 0:56:40.279 then you have a right to actually be upset about it. 0:56:40.640 --> 0:56:46.080 Then you have a right to expect justice. I mean, 0:56:46.120 --> 0:56:48.200 I don't think you can actually go meet it out yourself. 0:56:48.239 --> 0:56:50.160 I mean, although you know, for a long time I thought, well, 0:56:50.160 --> 0:56:52.640 I'd go kill those guys if I could, right, But 0:56:56.920 --> 0:56:59.560 you just don't let them. Don't let that memory be 0:56:59.719 --> 0:57:01.480 sold by the way they died. 0:57:02.360 --> 0:57:03.760 Yeah. 0:57:03.880 --> 0:57:06.960 The book is called Karen a Brother Remembers by the 0:57:06.960 --> 0:57:11.320 incredible Kelsey Grammar. It is available everywhere, and you should 0:57:11.320 --> 0:57:13.719 be so proud that you were able to share her 0:57:13.760 --> 0:57:16.240 story and yours with all of us. Thank you so 0:57:16.320 --> 0:57:17.760 much for being here with us today. 0:57:18.080 --> 0:57:19.400 Good pleasure. Good to see you guys. 0:57:19.560 --> 0:57:20.200 Good to see you. 0:57:20.600 --> 0:57:23.360 Thank you, thank you, thank you, Thank you too. 0:57:23.680 --> 0:57:34.480 Bye bye. 0:57:37.760 --> 0:57:38.080 Man. 0:57:40.320 --> 0:57:48.040 His ability to go from telling such a funny being 0:57:48.080 --> 0:57:50.680 so funny and telling a great story and then just 0:57:51.120 --> 0:57:58.919 within seconds tapping into raw emotion is just unparalleled. 0:57:59.040 --> 0:58:01.320 Well, he's a genius. I mean, he's an actual genius. 0:58:01.360 --> 0:58:02.960 And that's when you read the book. One of the 0:58:03.000 --> 0:58:04.880 first things that happens to him, which is just so insane, 0:58:04.920 --> 0:58:05.960 is he's. 0:58:06.000 --> 0:58:11.080 Kicked out of Juilliard. Yeah, so it's like it's like, 0:58:13.960 --> 0:58:18.800 who the did you keep? I'd love to know, because 0:58:18.840 --> 0:58:21.440 I mean, seriously, he's you see it just in a 0:58:21.480 --> 0:58:25.480 conversation with him, but when you when you watch his work, Uh, 0:58:25.520 --> 0:58:26.960 it's insane. 0:58:26.960 --> 0:58:29.200 There's a there. He reminds me a bit of. 0:58:29.160 --> 0:58:32.400 Bill Daniels or you know, in that there's this this 0:58:32.600 --> 0:58:34.800 gravitas to him even as he's. 0:58:34.800 --> 0:58:35.600 Just sitting there. 0:58:35.800 --> 0:58:41.600 Yeah, and and he can make a sitcom Shakespearean and 0:58:41.640 --> 0:58:43.240 there's something wonderful about that. 0:58:43.320 --> 0:58:45.160 And he's yeah, he's a living legend. I mean he 0:58:45.200 --> 0:58:45.560 really is. 0:58:46.720 --> 0:58:49.040 Yeah, he's so open, you know. 0:58:49.120 --> 0:58:52.280 And it's about actors that I always find so is 0:58:52.320 --> 0:58:56.440 that the emotions are right there, just teeming somewhere right 0:58:56.480 --> 0:58:59.240 under this. And it's like that, you know, because you 0:58:59.280 --> 0:59:02.560 can easily think of her actors as fakers or people 0:59:02.600 --> 0:59:04.680 who you know, But like he said, it's actually being 0:59:04.680 --> 0:59:07.360 able to tell the truth. It's actually just always knowing 0:59:07.400 --> 0:59:09.640 that it's just going to flow out of you, you know. 0:59:09.680 --> 0:59:10.880 And that's why when he said he wrote the book 0:59:10.880 --> 0:59:13.040 as a stream of consciousness, is like right, because you've 0:59:13.080 --> 0:59:18.000 been training all your life for a for things to 0:59:18.000 --> 0:59:19.720 flow out of you, for the words to come out 0:59:19.760 --> 0:59:23.840 for the you know, and so that accessibility is just 0:59:24.240 --> 0:59:26.320 it's so powerful, and you know, you can see like 0:59:26.360 --> 0:59:28.520 he just we start talking about a certain subject, he's 0:59:28.560 --> 0:59:29.280 going to start crying. 0:59:29.880 --> 0:59:30.760 He's going to let it happen. 0:59:30.800 --> 0:59:33.760 He's going to let it come through, and then you know, yeah, yeah, 0:59:33.960 --> 0:59:35.080 it's an amazing thing to see. 0:59:35.240 --> 0:59:37.960 Well, I mean, if his goal with the book is 0:59:38.000 --> 0:59:40.480 to introduce you to a person that by the end 0:59:40.520 --> 0:59:44.000 you feel like you know, then he did it. I mean, 0:59:44.040 --> 0:59:46.960 you do you feel like you know this girl who 0:59:47.040 --> 0:59:50.520 was taken when she was nineteen in a horrible way. 0:59:50.920 --> 0:59:53.360 And while you do know all that about her, you 0:59:53.480 --> 0:59:56.040 also know the kind of free spirit she was and 0:59:56.720 --> 0:59:59.120 the guy she was dating and the life she was leading, 0:59:59.160 --> 1:00:01.240 and you know, going to this place and going to 1:00:01.240 --> 1:00:02.600 that place and living here and living there. 1:00:02.720 --> 1:00:04.240 That's one of the things about the two of them. 1:00:04.680 --> 1:00:07.800 They were total had total wanderlust. Both of them, you 1:00:07.800 --> 1:00:10.840 could tell, just wanted to travel and see the world. 1:00:10.880 --> 1:00:12.800 He keeps talking about like, oh, and then I drove 1:00:12.880 --> 1:00:15.360 to San Diego again from Florida, and then I drove back, 1:00:15.440 --> 1:00:16.880 and then I drove to Texas and then I drove 1:00:16.960 --> 1:00:18.920 It's like they're not even flying to these places. They're 1:00:18.960 --> 1:00:22.240 hopping our motorcycles, they're hopping in cars, and they're experiencing 1:00:22.800 --> 1:00:24.520 the trip, the journey for them. 1:00:24.720 --> 1:00:26.800 And even when he talked about past lives and he 1:00:26.840 --> 1:00:29.360 talked about being on airplanes and like, I've been to 1:00:29.440 --> 1:00:33.320 all these places, I've done all you know, I've circumnavigated 1:00:33.360 --> 1:00:33.920 the globe. 1:00:33.960 --> 1:00:38.080 Like, yeah, yeah, it's yeah, really incredible. That might might 1:00:38.120 --> 1:00:40.360 be my favorite conversation we've had with anybody. And we've 1:00:40.360 --> 1:00:41.880 had some, we've had some great ones. 1:00:42.080 --> 1:00:44.600 Yeah, really great. I'm so glad he came and talked 1:00:44.600 --> 1:00:46.480 to us about it. Thank you all for joining us 1:00:46.480 --> 1:00:48.520 for this episode of Pod Meets World. As always, you 1:00:48.560 --> 1:00:50.960 can follow us on Instagram pod Meets World Show. 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