1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: My name is Jacquees Thomas and you're listening to Black Lit, 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: a podcast about black literature and the stories behind the storytellers. 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: There is so much we can take away from this 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: exploration of Octavia Butler's work. At every turn, her narratives 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: compel us to reflect, question, and reimagine the world as 6 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: it is. With every interview, a new depth of insight 7 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: into her psyche is revealed. We've only cracked the surface, 8 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: and there is so much more to discover. The complexities 9 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: of her life, the choices that she made to dedicate 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: her existence to the craft of writing during a time 11 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: where she didn't have strength in numbers. She was one 12 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: of one. As we transform our experiences, observations and perspectives, 13 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: and to the stories for tomorrow, inevitable question surface. Butler's 14 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 1: inquiries into the human condition opens pathways into understanding the mind, 15 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: envisioning the future, and unraveling how our past has shaped 16 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: our bloodlines and family structures. She wrote, all that you touch, 17 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: you change, all that you change changes you. The ony 18 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: lasting truth is change. God is change. The power of 19 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: influence and the exploration of identity themes that resonate throughout 20 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: her entire Over her work prompts endless questions and ideas, 21 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: with each page and interview revealing new discoveries. Her writings 22 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: beckon us to lose ourselves and then rediscover paths we 23 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 1: never conceived, only to lose ourselves once more and the 24 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: richness of our imagination. These layers are not merely for enjoyment, 25 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: but provide a textured ground to examine in seeds of thought, 26 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: seeds in which I can only hope will continue to 27 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: be planted for the next generation. Over the last few years, 28 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:39,519 Speaker 1: the word legacy has occupied my mind with a new significance. 29 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: Legacy is the opportunity to leave behind something of value, 30 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: something that not only inspires, but also enriches lives long 31 00:02:53,520 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: after we are gone. Butler's legacy indoors. Her works are 32 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: now a part of educational curricula, discussions on podcasts, and 33 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: are being adapted for television and theater. Kindred, her popular 34 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: narrative and the very first of her works to be 35 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: adapted to television, tells the story of an American bloodline 36 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 1: and the horrors that occurred in order for the lead 37 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: character and her family to exist. Kindred asks readers to 38 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 1: examine the truth of our history as a country, and 39 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: it's not a soft swallow, but a harsh reality that 40 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: Butler doesn't shy away from the importance of knowing and 41 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: the sensitivities around accepting what happened. To confront what is, 42 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: Butler challenges us to confront these truths head on, not 43 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: as passive observers, but as active participants seeking understanding. In 44 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: the wake of a divisive election, the harrowing tooths of 45 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: our past and present intertwine like persistent weeds at our roots, 46 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: deep beneath the soil. Butler anticipated with somber pragmatism, but 47 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: no less hope. Hope remains a consistent anchor to cling 48 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 1: on to a beacon amids the turmoil. As we stand 49 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: here thirty years from Butler's introduction to Powerable of the Sower, 50 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: one must wonder how she would interpret the current political climate, 51 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: societal divisions, and the environmental degradation. This quote from Eddie 52 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: s claud Junior stood out to me this week. 53 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: When we imagine the world as it could be and 54 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: use that imagination to critique the world as it is, 55 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 2: all of us have that capacity. 56 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: The capacity for a moral imagination that sees well beyond 57 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: the opacity of our conditions, because if we can envision 58 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:07,159 Speaker 1: an alternative world, an alternative future, surely we can create it. 59 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: Brandon Jacob Jenkins, the creator of the Kindred series, joins 60 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 1: us in a conversation later, but here are a few 61 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: of his thoughts on the power of our imaginations and 62 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: a necessity to have the freedom to imagine. 63 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: The Black imagination is profound, you know, and we have 64 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 2: to have unfettered access to imagine whatever we want, how 65 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 2: we want. And it's the obligation of the creative to 66 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 2: constantly celebrate that and honor that and defend that. Because 67 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: if someone's out there not letting your life and your 68 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 2: history and your context on this planet get into that 69 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 2: space of viewership and imagining, something's off. 70 00:05:55,080 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 1: Beware Octavia Butler Champion science fiction are for futurism during 71 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: her era, but now the fire is lit amongst mini writers, 72 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: creatives and citizens. So what are you thinking, What observations 73 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: and questions are emerging in your own self reflection, because 74 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: that's where it starts. What alternative world can you create 75 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: despite the pervasive uncertainty? What will be your legacy? How 76 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,359 Speaker 1: will you use your voice, your pen, your action to 77 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,280 Speaker 1: shape the world beyond what it is. 78 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 2: Or what was. 79 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: Octavia's predictions were based on patterns, history repeating itself, humans 80 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:59,160 Speaker 1: repeating themselves and falling over the same lines in the sand, 81 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: and then drawing it all over again, just to fall 82 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: all over again. What will be here? 83 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 2: Like as he. 84 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 3: We can be better with human beings than that. But 85 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 3: it's so tempting to be greedy and have power and 86 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 3: keep it from other people. 87 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: In America, it is time to draw something new through 88 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: the lens of a moral imagination, with the depth of 89 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: knowing that everything we touch changes, and the need to 90 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: heal at the root is dire, so that we can 91 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: grow past our stunted patterns. 92 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 3: Choose your leaders with wisdom and forethought. To be led 93 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 3: by a fool is to be led by the opportunists 94 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 3: who control the fool. To be led by a law 95 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 3: is to ask to be lied to. 96 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: But it's impossible to ignore the irony of the time, 97 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: the date, the topic, the year, and an exact journal 98 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: entry from Lauren Olamina on Wednesday, November sixth, twenty twenty 99 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: four and Powerable of the Sewer, in which she writes 100 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: about the President elect and her concern about what they 101 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: have ahead of them, She writes, Dad decided not to 102 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: vote for Donner. After all, he didn't vote for anyone. 103 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: He said, politicians turn his stomach. During this election, millions 104 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: of people decided not to vote, not to show up 105 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: at all. Coincidence, perhaps having read Powerable of the Sewer 106 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: and all of the things that were essentially predicted or 107 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: calculated just from her watching NPR and just understanding the 108 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: possible outcomes and in the state of the world that 109 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: we're in today, how do you feel about what she 110 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: prophesies and how these things have come to be as 111 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: a writer, as a black man, how does that sit 112 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: with you? 113 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 2: Who? I mean? I think the important thing, you know, 114 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 2: her great message inside of that was about adaptability and 115 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 2: community and a deep understanding that change is the constant, 116 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 2: and you know, how do we imagine our way out 117 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 2: of the world that we've imagined our way into. That's 118 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: really that's really the clearing call. I think. You know, 119 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 2: we're talking just days after the election, and people were 120 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 2: still feeling all kinds of feelings. But I know those 121 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 2: feelings are going to be different feelings tomorrow and the 122 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 2: day after that. And the thing to do is to 123 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 2: stay present and to locate one's dignity, locate one's worldview, 124 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 2: and always articulate what you feel and what you know. 125 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: And you keep history of life through the stories you tell. 126 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,719 Speaker 2: You keep your sense of self and your sense of 127 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 2: community live through the stories you tell. So that's what 128 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: I kind of take away from her whole project. She 129 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 2: didn't have to write these books, you know, and we're 130 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: all very grateful she did write these books. And I 131 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 2: think it's up to us to kind of take as 132 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: an example for ourselves why she chose to write these books. 133 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: You know, that's what she decided to spend her life 134 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,359 Speaker 2: on this planet doing. And how do we be inspired 135 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 2: by that of human action? That's sort of my That's 136 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 2: where my mind takes me. That's where i'm today, That's 137 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: where I'm staying. On Friday of Ember eighth, twenty twenty four, you. 138 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: Are now listening to black Lit black List. 139 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: Well, the thing about Kindred that was very important was 140 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 2: it was the kind of watershed book for her. It 141 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 2: was sort of you know, I think if you take 142 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 2: the kind of complete body of work of many great artists, 143 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: there's always like a book that feels like a turning 144 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 2: point where nothing else could have happened unless this book 145 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,719 Speaker 2: had happened. And I think that Kindred was that for her, 146 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 2: like I think at some ways she was born as 147 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 2: a writer through the writing of that book. And you know, 148 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 2: she would say, I, since we come rather close with 149 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 2: Merrily Hypetz, who is her great champion and her agent 150 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: and currently her you know, Elery executor, and has really 151 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 2: done incredible a lot of work to keep Octavia in 152 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 2: the imaginary and keep her alive and keep her legacy alive, 153 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: merely told me that she would say to to Octavia, 154 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 2: you know, you really should write a memoir. And Octavia say, 155 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 2: I've already written a memoir. It's Kindred, and that there 156 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: was something about that book that was very personal, and 157 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:22,840 Speaker 2: that was that was a book of a young person 158 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 2: trying to make sense of what they cared about and 159 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: trying to figure out the themes that would motivate them 160 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: and carry them through the rest of their body of work. 161 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 2: And when I began to sort of look at it 162 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 2: through that lands, you know, I was a teacher and 163 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 2: I teach write. I haven't teaching writing about for over 164 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 2: a decade. You know, you do see in young writers, 165 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: you know, you see what them you see they're actively 166 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 2: wrestling with in those early works, and I really let 167 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 2: that what I see her doing is actually trying to 168 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 2: find the confidence to be a black female writer. 169 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 3: You know. 170 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 2: I think it's no mistake that it's about you know, 171 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,559 Speaker 2: I always said, the art of that book is she's 172 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 2: the black female writer married to a white male writer 173 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 2: who's very successful. But in the end, the book that's 174 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,959 Speaker 2: in your hands, it's her book techniquey right, that it's 175 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 2: about a woman claiming an identity as an author and 176 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 2: an artist and a person through this strange traumatic experience 177 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 2: that's part imagined, part reality, part historical, market temporary, you know. 178 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: And that was really that was really fascinating, and I 179 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: also was really moved to learn more about you know, 180 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: she It's hard for people to understand now, but like 181 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 2: she was a real researcher at a time when research 182 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 2: was not easy, and she was not affiliated with the university, 183 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: she was not an academic, you know, and she really 184 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 2: was so such an autodidact and so self motivated that 185 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: she paid her she paid for a greathound bus that 186 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 2: took her all the way across the country to do 187 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 2: research on this book at a time when you know, 188 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: we don't understand how lucky we are living or be 189 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 2: living in an era that is dedicated to the moralization 190 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: of the American chattel slavery and like the memory of it. 191 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 2: But at that time, which was you know, right around 192 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 2: the country celebration of it's like bi centennial, you know, 193 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 2: nobody was out here caring about this stuff in a 194 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 2: significant way, writing about it, memorializing, theorizing, historicizing it. You know, 195 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 2: that was We're looking at the very beginnings of the 196 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 2: birth of like African American studies as we understand it 197 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: a lot of ways, you know. And so for her 198 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: to like decide she's gonna write this book, pay her 199 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: way on a greyhound, be on that bus for however 200 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 2: many days, to go to like basically where I grew up, 201 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 2: you know, Maryland, Eastern Shore, DC, and look at these 202 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 2: crumbling plantations and I have government funding, you know, and 203 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: try to piece together enough sense memory and reality to 204 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 2: kind of go into herself and tell this story is 205 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 2: a profound undertaking with no Internet, no nothing, you know, 206 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 2: it's ridiculous. And Merrily also told me that all through 207 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 2: her career she was obsessed with she would like record 208 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 2: things on her like on like tailor and like cassette tapes, 209 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 2: and she would make these, especially she make podcasts for 210 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: herself and she's like audible audibles, yes, by herself. She 211 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: would make them, you know, and she would just she 212 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 2: just had a methodology of bringing that knowledge to her 213 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 2: and synthesizing that knowledge, and her work is proof of 214 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: how you know, that work yields more than just the 215 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 2: knowledge itself. In some ways, people argue she brings she 216 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 2: was a prophet in many, many of these books, but 217 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 2: she was definitely making these interesting arguments through fiction about 218 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 2: thinks like genetics, epi genetics, like providence of racial you know, 219 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: racial like interracial lisms and forms. You know, She's doing 220 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 2: all this stuff in an imaginative way that now, of 221 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 2: course we have entire shells of scholarship kind of talking 222 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 2: through the reality of you know. So that was really 223 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 2: just inspiring that if you really just dig down into 224 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 2: your calling and you take the work seriously and you 225 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,160 Speaker 2: just get what you need at whatever the cost, there's 226 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 2: real yield there. 227 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 3: One of the things that I tell people who are 228 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 3: reading my work critically is that what they bring to 229 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 3: it is at least as important to them as what 230 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 3: I put into it, and that's true. 231 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: Once we sold the show, soeld the idea. At that time, 232 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 2: Huntington Library had just received her papers and no one 233 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 2: could really get access to them, and honestly, nobody want 234 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 2: to access them because she wasn't really in the air. 235 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: I say, in like twenty when was this mus have 236 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 2: been like twenty fourteen, twenty fifth teen around then when 237 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 2: we actually sold it, and Merrily was like, listen, you can, 238 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:06,240 Speaker 2: I can get you access to this library. So I 239 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: messedlf out to La and I like went to that 240 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: library every day, and they had barely organized these things. 241 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 2: I mean because she wrote in these scraps of paper. 242 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 3: You know. 243 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 2: That was the beginning of me trying to really get 244 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 2: inside her mind, because I felt that was my obligations 245 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: as an adapter, was to like just know every inch 246 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 2: of her intention and every inch of this book. And 247 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 2: I read like her her like multiple drafts and like 248 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: half drafts and falls drafts, and and I was like, man, 249 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 2: this woman, really we're not joking around with the body. 250 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 2: She was really a deep, deep, deep serious thinker and writer. 251 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 2: And I couldn't just comment her with like there was 252 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 2: just gonna everything you every thread you pulled, just took 253 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: you on her whole journey, and I just wanted to 254 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: know every part of that map. So that was part 255 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 2: of my process for the many, many years I was 256 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: just stating a series. 257 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: So knowing that it was her essentially her memoir, wanting 258 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: to make sure that you're capturing her intention of the book. 259 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: Did that play a role in your character development within 260 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: the series, because I know there were some changes that 261 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: were made, but how did you maintain that intention within 262 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: the changes? 263 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: Within the changes? Yeah, I think what I did well, 264 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 2: I want to say, I don't think it was I 265 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 2: don't think she's being literal about it being her memoir. 266 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 2: I think that what she was sort of saying is 267 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 2: that she told her emotional story through that. You know, 268 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 2: I think it was about trying to first of all, yes, 269 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 2: it did, because it was about what I felt in 270 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 2: the book. What I wanted to do in the series 271 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 2: was to do with the trick of the book, which 272 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 2: is that in the end you realize this whole thing 273 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 2: is a memoir of an author, But it was about 274 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: you know, I think she very intentionally wanted to write 275 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 2: about a driven black female creative in an industry that 276 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 2: in which she was was just gonna be like automatically 277 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 2: a weird anomaly. And I also felt like one of 278 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 2: the things about Octavia that I loved is that she 279 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 2: never you know, my other queen mother is Tony Morrison, 280 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 2: which you know, Tony Morrison has this whole origin story 281 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 2: of like I went to the library, I read all 282 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 2: the children's books on the bottom shelf, and then the 283 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 2: next shelf it was Dostoyevsky, and I read all that too, 284 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 2: you know. And so her story as a writer was 285 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: very much and justifiably wrapped up in an exposure to 286 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: like great literature and the formation inside of herself of 287 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 2: what it meant to be a great author of literature. 288 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 2: But Octavia's story is very different. Where Octavia read whatever 289 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: her mom, who was a domestic could bring home from 290 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,680 Speaker 2: the house that she was cleaning. So she was reading 291 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 2: comic books, she was reading manuals, she was reading whatever 292 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 2: she could. So she didn't have, I think, a necessary 293 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 2: division between high and low literature in her conception of herself, 294 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 2: and that she had to someone she was someone who 295 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 2: understood the value of watching things that most people would 296 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: write off as not like disposed, like disposable or not 297 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 2: valuable or not meaningful, and so I needed to make 298 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 2: I really wanted to make a character who was like, 299 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 2: I'm about here to bring digny to the thing that 300 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 2: staying so many people I know and look like me, 301 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 2: but you're going to write it off as not meaningful enough, 302 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 2: and I don't care, because that was what Oh, that's 303 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:31,199 Speaker 2: what octavit. She was the only one in her field 304 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 2: for so long, she was the only black woman, you know, 305 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 2: and that's a lot. That is a lot, and that 306 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 2: takes a lot of commitment to stay there, you know. 307 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 2: And that felt kind of important to me. And also 308 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 2: just looking at how in the drafts that I read 309 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: and kind of in some ways being able to track 310 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 2: the evolution of the finished project and seeing where her 311 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 2: mind went and the roads she went down and why 312 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 2: she decided to back up out of them versus go 313 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: down some of them. I was like, Oh, I actually 314 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 2: think there's ways to honor this impulse she had in 315 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 2: a television form in a way that she couldn't necessary. 316 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 2: She knew that she somehow instinctively knew she couldn't actually 317 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: pull off in a novel that needs to be about 318 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: two hundred pages, you know. So yeah, that did all 319 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: kind of all that was definitely in living in me 320 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,959 Speaker 2: and with me through that whole process. And of course, 321 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,479 Speaker 2: you know, making TV has other challenges, but everything I did, 322 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 2: I tried to do in the grain of what I 323 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 2: had come to understand was her thinking and as a 324 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 2: creative at that time in her life. One of the 325 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 2: often cited kind of aha moments was she was in 326 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 2: a class and he was a history class where some 327 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 2: students stood up and was like, if I go back 328 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 2: in time, I would have killed all these Uncle Tom's 329 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: and these house slaves, this, that, and the other. And 330 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: she was going home to a parent who was a domestic, 331 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 2: you know, and just that experience of like, wait a minute, 332 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: you know something that's so poisonous about our history that 333 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 2: people don't even acknowledge that the people in these in 334 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 2: this history didn't know the future. This is the only 335 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: world they knew and they were still human beings who 336 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 2: had to navigate the reality dating right, you know, as 337 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: we all are today, you know. And just the profundity 338 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 2: of that thought was to me like right, of course, 339 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 2: like it's so easy for people to want to judge 340 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 2: any story about slavery because all we've received is like 341 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 2: a copy of a copy. But if you'd stopped for 342 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 2: five seconds and think about these people's lives, they had 343 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: no reason to believe that this was not going to 344 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: be the history of humanity forever and ever. So when 345 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 2: you have that thought, how does your behavior and your 346 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 2: sense of entitlement in your relationship to violence or violence 347 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 2: you think you'll do shift or change? You know? That's 348 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 2: really the story. That's what's that's the interesting story. 349 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: I remember you saying something in an interview once that 350 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, this idea of binging gives us an opportunity 351 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: to almost approach it as if it were a book. 352 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 1: But can you talk to me about like your approach 353 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: to time and because I feel like, even in the 354 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: first eight episodes, we got through a good amount of 355 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: the book, and I'm so curious, I don't know if 356 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,919 Speaker 1: you can talk about her if you're so shopping it, 357 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: if there's potential of it ever being another season. 358 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 2: I don't know, y'all. It would require a lot of activation, 359 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 2: you know. Well, one thing I knew is for a 360 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 2: long time I think people were like, why is this 361 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 2: stop being made yet? And I think one of the 362 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 2: issues was people were trying to make it a movie. 363 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 2: And the truth is that like part of the effectiveness 364 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 2: of that book that she manages so beautifully and I 365 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: think you really see her like get better and better 366 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 2: at this. Like I think Parable is a great example 367 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 2: of this, is you have you know, part of the 368 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 2: emotional experience of those books is how much time you 369 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 2: spend with these people. You know, it's getting to know 370 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 2: the people and feeling how important it is for them 371 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 2: to be changing so vividly over time. That's what part 372 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 2: of the book is about. If you think about the 373 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 2: arc of Missus Whale Margaret Whalen, you know by the 374 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 2: end of the book, which we didn't get to a show, 375 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: but she is a totally different person. And it's also 376 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 2: kind of implied that that woman is the reason why 377 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 2: Dana's line gets to continue on something right. So, but 378 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 2: you can only feel that, you can't feel that in 379 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 2: two hours that's not gonna mean nothing to you. If 380 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 2: Glenn close to whoever is really mean for like ten 381 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 2: minutes and then twenty minutes later she's like old lady 382 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 2: and she's blind, Like, it's just gonna feel different. Yeah, 383 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 2: So I was so early on, I was like, he 384 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 2: has it has to be TV, because the thing about TV, 385 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 2: you're constantly having to ask yourself, why would the audience 386 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 2: member bring this person back into my living room every week? 387 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 2: Because when you're trying to build there's a relationship to characters, 388 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 2: You're trying to build familiarity. You know, you think about 389 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: these these long running shows and it's like you literally 390 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 2: feel like you know Aria Stark. But you would not 391 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,239 Speaker 2: have that same experience if Game of Thrones had been 392 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: into our movie. You just wouldn't have because about the 393 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 2: time you spend with people. And truthfully, yes, and part 394 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 2: of also part of what she woul the revolutionary about 395 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: what she was doing in Kindred was talking about how 396 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 2: it's easy to pretend that the worst part about slavery 397 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 2: is that people got whipped, But the truth is people's 398 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 2: lives were robbed from them. People were trapped, and they're incarcerated. 399 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: The theft of your time is the crime. And how 400 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 2: do you really show that to people unless you give 401 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 2: them an experience of orders to live with these people 402 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 2: in this world and wake up every day in the 403 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 2: same captivity. That's really the that's where the heartbreak is. 404 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 2: You know, it's not just the precarity, it's not just 405 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:36,040 Speaker 2: the ways that the system is built to contain and 406 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 2: demean you. It's the life you lose. It's the social death. 407 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 2: That's the phrase Atlanta Passion uses. That's the real crime. 408 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,159 Speaker 1: The sexual violence, it's such a sensitive thing that is 409 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: a part of that generational trauma. It's a part of 410 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 1: all of these things that we essentially sometimes don't want 411 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: to talk about. Why we don't want to even watch 412 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: or people are con saying, we don't need another slave movie, 413 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 1: we don't need another slave contextual idea. But in so 414 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 1: many ways, I'm like, yes, we do, because there's still 415 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: so many conversations that we are refusing to have and 416 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: I think that's part of it. And doing it in 417 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: a series makes the most sense to me because of 418 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: the sensitivity of it. 419 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 2: You can't put that in someone's face so immediately. 420 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: I mean you can, but why would you want to 421 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: if you want to create a dialogue, right, especially when 422 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: it was the sexual violence that wasn't like one off, 423 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: it was systemic, it was systeaetic. Yeah, you know, the 424 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: economy of slavery depended on the sexual violence. The sexual 425 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: the repeated sexual violation. 426 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 2: And assault of women of black women. That's what it was. 427 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: And you know, the thing about Kindred quite as it's 428 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 2: kept is it's a family store. It's a family drama. 429 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 2: When she goes back and she meets those Whalens, she's 430 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 2: meeting her actual ancestors. That's the reveal. You know. Margaret 431 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 2: Whalen is her great great great grandmother. Tom Whalen is 432 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 2: her great great great grandfather, you know. And her life 433 00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 2: is the product of all kinds of violence. I mean literal. 434 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's Alice's arc, right, That's like, that's 435 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 2: the real moral craziness of that book is what Dana 436 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: realizes she has to do in order to keep herself alive. 437 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: Man, I mean, it's a heavy book. 438 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 2: It's a lot. It's a lot. 439 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: I have to ask. I have to ask this question, Kevin, 440 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: mm hmm. What was the reason for changing the dynamic 441 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: of their relationship. 442 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: I have a theory. Your theory might be the I mean, 443 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: what specifically about their dynamic are you thinking about? 444 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: They're they're not married, they're not a couple, They're not 445 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: you know, the relationship is not at the depth as 446 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: it was in the book. When she started going in 447 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: the past. 448 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 2: There were an incredible number of drafts, So you know, 449 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,840 Speaker 2: I don't you know, making TV is tricky. It's not. 450 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 2: It is not like painting and painting. It's not writing 451 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 2: a poem. It's not even write a play. You are 452 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 2: in constant negotiation with a corporation represented by any number 453 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: of pretty much well meaning people, and you're trying very 454 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 2: hard to I was. I just felt like I gotta 455 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 2: I gotta get Octavia to people. That's like what I'm 456 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 2: you know. That was my fire inside of me. And 457 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 2: there were many, many, many, many, many many many drafts 458 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 2: of this pilot in which these two were married. There's 459 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 2: a multiverse in which I made this show in which 460 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 2: they're married, and I'm very happy, So I did that. 461 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 2: I would say that two things, the marriage as represented 462 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 2: in the book, which people seem to like close one 463 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 2: eye to, is not what we would consider functional, or 464 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 2: I would say or I would say progressive. Right. He's 465 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: significantly older than her in the book, Yes, right, in 466 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 2: a way that we would all kind of like, I 467 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 2: think if we had to watch that every week, would 468 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,880 Speaker 2: have questions about He's also described in the book as 469 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 2: like not attractive. 470 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 3: At all. 471 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 2: He's like short, he's like got white hair, he's got 472 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 2: crazy eyes. He seems aggressive, and he has like extremely 473 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: paternalistic impulses towards her that are that can make people pause. Right, 474 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 2: she's supposed to type up his type, up his stuff 475 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 2: for him. You know, there's a wild moment they have 476 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 2: a wild fight early in their relationship where for some reason, 477 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: I know a lot of people would not forgive him, 478 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 2: and this character kind of inexplicably lets this man back 479 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 2: in her life. So if you're talking about really trying 480 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 2: to recreate that specific marriage for a contemporary audience, there 481 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,719 Speaker 2: will be bigger questions. I don't think that everyone's instinct 482 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 2: would be like if they were in love and it's 483 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: a deep love. I think that she's actually written a 484 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 2: very I think in some ways the story of the 485 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: book is actually the two of them learning really what 486 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 2: love is. 487 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 3: Like. 488 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 2: They kind of bond through the experience in a way 489 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 2: that makes that marriage at the end feel genuine enough 490 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 2: that she keeps this man out of jail when she 491 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 2: comes back from the arm you know. And I think 492 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 2: that there was a desire to I think I desired 493 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: for there to be the possibility of watching this character 494 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 2: have a love story in real time, rather than taking 495 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 2: it for granted or presupposing that's our Okay, what would 496 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 2: it mean to ask the question of how this woman 497 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 2: might inside of this horrible experience where she is literally 498 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 2: a commodity and at risk of being violated at any moment. 499 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 2: You know what, if inside this we could actually give 500 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 2: her an emotional story that felt productive or safe or 501 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 2: evolving or deepening, or something that was also happening. But 502 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: there's other things I can't say on the record. That's all. 503 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 2: That's that's fair man. But but it's you know, for 504 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 2: people who think I didn't want you know, I did. 505 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 2: There are actually versions of this script that were very 506 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 2: very close to the book, But TV's another. It's a 507 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 2: different kind of animal than a double. And I always thought, well, 508 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 2: you know who liberated me was merely she was like 509 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 2: Octavia always felt kind of ambivalent about aritations for work 510 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 2: because she was like, it'll never be the book, It'll 511 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 2: be its own thing. As long as people read my books, 512 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 2: that's all I care about. And so I thought, okay, right, Like, 513 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 2: my job is here is not to replace that book 514 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,959 Speaker 2: or anybody's experience that book, or even my experience that book. 515 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 2: It's to kind of give it a different iteration and 516 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 2: hopefully in a satisfying way that it sends you back 517 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: to the book and that book has accrued a different 518 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 2: layer of meaningfulness or something. You know, that was what 519 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 2: I always felt when I was making it. That makes sense. 520 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: That's one of the reasons why I started this podcast, 521 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: and it's happened already. We're like, oh, I should go 522 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: back and reread parable of the soroh I should read Kendred, 523 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: or oh I need to learn more about Octavia Butler. 524 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, you kind of want 525 00:32:58,720 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: to just ignite this part. 526 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 2: Exactly because I try. I mean, you and I both 527 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 2: know we can trust those books enough to make their 528 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 2: own case. Like you don't even need to make a podcast, 529 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 2: you know, like you can lose your whole life in 530 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 2: mind and everything spirit in those books, like black people 531 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 2: I know have, and they're they're just more than any 532 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 2: either of us could sum up, you know, and just 533 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: talking about them, you really have to experience them, you 534 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 2: really have to live in them, live with them. And 535 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 2: I'm just so fortunate that somebody in my life gave 536 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 2: me the wherewithal to kind of stay tenacious. I mean, 537 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 2: maybe's Octavia. So I'm saying like all these people, like 538 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 2: Toddy Moore said, nobody was checking for blue as eye it. No, 539 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 2: she was just doing these things on the weekend. Yeah, 540 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 2: you know, nobody saw the future coming, and no understood 541 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 2: just the profound revolution she was engendering through her through language, 542 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: through the way she engaged language. So you just have 543 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 2: to sort of have faith in the work you're doing 544 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 2: and listen. I mean, I'm never afraid to listen to 545 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 2: people have something to say. That's the other thing, Like, 546 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 2: I'm always willing to have a conversation because I do 547 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 2: believe I put in the work to say what I'm saying, 548 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 2: and maybe something didn't get across to you the way 549 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,320 Speaker 2: you wanted to hear it, or maybe you just didn't 550 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 2: hear it. 551 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 3: You know. 552 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 2: But it's always going to be difficult talking about the 553 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 2: reality of history to people. Like one of the crazy 554 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 2: repeat kind of things people kept saying when Kendrick was 555 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 2: on the air was like, do we need another thing 556 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 2: about slavery? Another thing about slavery? And I was like, well, 557 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 2: first of all, as it's over and over again, I 558 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 2: was like, there's a trillion TV show about wealthy white 559 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 2: families doing evil stuff. One trillion of this right, and 560 00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 2: they win award after award after ward, after ward, when 561 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 2: I come along and do one of maybe two or 562 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 2: three shows in the history of television, there's even partly 563 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,479 Speaker 2: taken American slavery. It's part of his storytelling. I'm being 564 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: told it's too many. There's a quota, right when I 565 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,040 Speaker 2: want to talk about the reality of my history and 566 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 2: my family experience in America, there's a quota. 567 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 3: You know. 568 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 2: There's something about that where I was like, I was 569 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 2: just glad to go to TV and say that to 570 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,399 Speaker 2: people and just be like, this is interesting. Right. They 571 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 2: were a nice man in that sermon, but that was real. 572 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 2: But that's why that stuff matters, because it's like, actually, no, yeah, 573 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 2: this is another one. You don't have to watch it actually, 574 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 2: because Lord knows, I don't watch every show about cops. 575 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 2: I don't watch every show about firefighters. I don't watch 576 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,359 Speaker 2: every show set in the hospital. I don't watch every 577 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 2: show set on a farm or about cowboys. That's the 578 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 2: amazing thing about living in the Golden At TV, you 579 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 2: ain't got to watch what you don't want to watch. 580 00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: But that does I mean, it's somebody out there does 581 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,680 Speaker 2: watch it. It doesn't need to watch it. It was just well. 582 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 2: But it's like that's the kind of policing that only 583 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:09,840 Speaker 2: happens with black content, right, that's they don't truly nobody 584 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 2: else experiences that. 585 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: If you could, would you adapt another one of her books? 586 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 2: Oh my god, I mean it would take me? Yes, 587 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 2: I would, Yes, dance Is, Yes, I would. I would. 588 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 2: I'll be honest. When I was like pitching Kindred, nobody 589 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 2: was checking for and then once we got picked up 590 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 2: and all her books got optioned, and I don't know 591 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 2: where those things are. I don't know where Kart's Parable sauris. 592 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 2: I'm waiting for it. HBO was gonna do Fledgling. What happened? 593 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 2: Like people got to talk. They're gonna do Dawn. They 594 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 2: gonna do Dawn. I saw that. Yeah, you guys, can 595 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 2: we tell the story of what happened? Because there was 596 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 2: gonna be this thing? You know? But I would, of 597 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 2: course I would, because I really do have a kind 598 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 2: of It's like I'm also working on this Prince project 599 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 2: and meeting all these Prince people who are like he 600 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: was like a religious figure to them. You know, they're 601 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 2: like they go into raptures. They pulled me in the clauset, 602 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 2: show me tattoos and like it's too much. But I 603 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 2: feel that kind of way back, or I feel like 604 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 2: I was like my job. I'm just like one of 605 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 2: her soldiers. I'm like, let me just give you read 606 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 2: these books. Like right, I could just give you read 607 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 2: these books. Read these books. I know, I just know 608 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,319 Speaker 2: that something's going to change because what she was doing 609 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 2: was more than just fiction. It was like she was 610 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 2: trying to build a community of thought around some ideas 611 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 2: and so yes answers. Yes, I would do what everybody 612 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 2: wanted me to, honestly, but it was not easy. It 613 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 2: was not an easy time to make television. It was 614 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 2: not an easy television to make. And yeah it was 615 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 2: I got some gray hairs. 616 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,920 Speaker 1: Oh man, I can only imagine. I'm sure there was 617 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: a lot of off book conversations there is. 618 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 2: That's premium subscribers. You would get you a premium premiums. 619 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 2: I'll tell you. I'll tell you what I do with 620 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 2: down and in Atlanta in the fall of twenty whatever. 621 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: And Kindred, we are transported back to a tumultuous era 622 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: where the outcomes of many of our ancestors was uncertain 623 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: and often bleak. Yet hope remained a steadfast companion, contrasted 624 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: and powerable the soler Octavia. Butler draws from the news 625 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: and societal eras to paint a future our present day 626 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: as a dystopian landscape where faith leads as the main character. 627 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,439 Speaker 1: This prompts a reflective question I posed earlier, what will 628 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:46,359 Speaker 1: be your legacy? What stories are you crafting from your 629 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:53,080 Speaker 1: current observations, and how are these experiences impacting your imagination? 630 00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:02,280 Speaker 1: These practices of interpretation are not passive activities. They actively 631 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 1: shape our ideology for tomorrow and influence how we internalize 632 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: what unfolds before us. Brandon suggested we conclude with the 633 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: Book of Martha, one of Butler's shorter stories that challenges 634 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,760 Speaker 1: us to envision our role in the crafting of our worlds, 635 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: inviting a deep, introspective look at how we might use 636 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: our powers of creation to influence our realities. I hope 637 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: this summarize excerpt enables you to see yourself and your 638 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: potential more clearly, pushing you to think about the legacy 639 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: you wish to leave behind and the stories you choose 640 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: the right. 641 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:51,720 Speaker 2: How will you use. 642 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 1: Your insights and your voice to shape a future that 643 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 1: reflects the best of what we can imagine. 644 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 2: I think that's consistent theme and probably when we're liberating 645 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:08,240 Speaker 2: and radical. Thrust of her body of work is about 646 00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,680 Speaker 2: the imagination and what it is that we possess this 647 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 2: faculty of conceiving our reality as being different than it is, 648 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,439 Speaker 2: and how that the exercise of that is important because 649 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,800 Speaker 2: that's where our agency is as actors in the world begins, 650 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:29,319 Speaker 2: you know, and that's so much of the world, you know, 651 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 2: and things don't go great, what's usually happening is someone's 652 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 2: trying to suppress that potential in people in subjects right, 653 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 2: and that one of the ways you do that is 654 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,280 Speaker 2: through robbing them of their language, which gives us access 655 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,000 Speaker 2: to that right, It gives us access to bringing our 656 00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 2: interior into the exterior. Maybe little, a little google, but 657 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 2: that's just what I always find in all of her. 658 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,720 Speaker 2: That's the kind of the continuous threat, is a real 659 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 2: emphasis on interiority, and especially black interiority. And I always 660 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 2: find that these themes for me completely resolve themselves in 661 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 2: this little short story of hers called the Book of Martha, 662 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 2: which is never where I tell people start with octaber, 663 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 2: where I tell them to end and it's a conversation 664 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,360 Speaker 2: between a Karen named Martha and God. But over the 665 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 2: course of the story, you know, you realize that God 666 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,879 Speaker 2: and Martha have a relationship, you know, like that there's 667 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,000 Speaker 2: a connection between them that has lots to do with 668 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 2: I think what we're talking about. 669 00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,240 Speaker 1: In this scene from the Book of Martha by Octavia Butler, 670 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:38,879 Speaker 1: Martha experiences a profound and symbolic moment with God as 671 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: they enjoy sandwiches together. Martha brings out sparkling apple cider 672 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:48,080 Speaker 1: for her divine guests, but she returns she's startled to 673 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:53,320 Speaker 1: see that God has transformed into a woman, resembling Martha 674 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 1: so closely that they could be sisters. This transformation inspires 675 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: a conversation about perception and identity. Martha expresses her confusion 676 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: and frustration over why it took her so long to 677 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: visualize God as a black woman, questioning the authenticity of 678 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,439 Speaker 1: her previous perceptions of God as a white or black man. 679 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:26,960 Speaker 1: She says, it does bother me if I am doing it. 680 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: Why did it take so long for me to see 681 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,840 Speaker 1: you as a black woman, since that's no more true 682 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,439 Speaker 1: than seeing you as a white or a black man. 683 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,399 Speaker 1: God explains that Martha sees what she has been conditioned 684 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 1: by her life experiences to see, implying that her perceptions 685 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:54,279 Speaker 1: are shaped by her own personal and cultural background. The 686 00:42:54,360 --> 00:43:00,879 Speaker 1: exchange deepens as Martha considers her own ideological constraint, her 687 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: mental cage, what she thought she had escaped. She has 688 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,719 Speaker 1: always envisioned God in the limited human constructs available to her, 689 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: white male human. God's response is enlightening. If Martha were 690 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,520 Speaker 1: truly still confined by those limits, she would be witnessing God. 691 00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 1: God's response is enlightening. If it were truly a cage, 692 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:34,839 Speaker 1: God said, you would still be in it, and I 693 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: would still look the way I did when you first 694 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:43,279 Speaker 1: saw me, suggesting that Martha has indeed begun to transcend 695 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:51,880 Speaker 1: her previous constraints. This scene, although short, captures the theme 696 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: of self realization, the breaking of mental and cultural conditioning, 697 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: and the expansive nature of Divinity beyond human imposed identities. 698 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 1: It challenges both Martha and the reader to reflect, to 699 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 1: reflect on the boundaries of perception and the potential for 700 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: growth well beyond. The Black Lit is a Black Effect 701 00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:28,720 Speaker 1: original series in partnership with iHeart Media. I jac Quist 702 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: Thomas and the creator and executive producer alongside Dolly s Bishop. 703 00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: Chanelle Collins is the director of production. It is written 704 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:42,160 Speaker 1: by myself and Bria Baker. Our researcher and producer is 705 00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,160 Speaker 1: Jabari Davis, and the mix and sound design is by 706 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 1: The Humble Dwyane Crawford. Special thanks to Hoshanda Saunders, Sheila Lyming, 707 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:59,239 Speaker 1: Edward Champion, Bruce Duncan, doctor Ronaldo Anderson, Kristens Wicker, Mesi Shaw, 708 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:07,359 Speaker 1: and Brandon Jacob Jenkins. Thank you. Also, if you're looking 709 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,320 Speaker 1: to become a writer or in search of a supportive 710 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:14,400 Speaker 1: writing community, join me for a free creative writing session 711 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 1: on my website Black writers Room dot com, b LK 712 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: Writer's Room dot com, or hit me up directly for 713 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:26,960 Speaker 1: more details at Underscore T h A T S P 714 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 1: E A c E That's Peace.