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Speaker 1: Ah, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, the only podcast

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Speaker 1: that is that is still legal under the Joe Biden

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Speaker 1: HUNTA Robert.

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Speaker 2: Did you uh get something that I just texted you?

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Speaker 3: What was? What was?

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Speaker 1: Is it?

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Speaker 3: Is it? A screenshot that says Robert Evans podcast host

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Speaker 3: manager Sophie Lichterman.

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Speaker 1: Wow, uh yeah? But it also says my location is

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Speaker 1: virtual pissed.

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Speaker 2: That specific standard time you hack this is virtual?

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Speaker 1: It says, I think I have to be no. I

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Speaker 1: think what it's saying because it's like virtual pissed comma or,

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Speaker 1: which probably means I have to be allowed to work

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Speaker 1: virtually or I will get pissed.

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Speaker 2: I mean, fair enough.

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Speaker 1: I love that you have access to my work email.

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Speaker 1: I haven't been able to log into it for months.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, so sorry. That was really personally fun

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Speaker 3: for me.

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Speaker 4: Hi Alex, Hello, I just remembered a time. I don't

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Speaker 4: even know if this is worth telling, but I just

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Speaker 4: remember at a time that I was at a cafe

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Speaker 4: in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, and I overheard someone talking about

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Speaker 4: listening to and loving Behind the Bastards, but that they

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Speaker 4: weren't quite sure if they could trust the show anymore

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Speaker 4: because of how rich podcasters are.

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Speaker 3: There was once Robert what was that thing that there

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Speaker 3: was like an article that said how much Robert's networth was?

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Speaker 2: How much was it?

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Speaker 1: It was so much money, sixty four million dollars. This

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Speaker 1: is what the internet estimated.

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Speaker 4: I just was. I was just hoping I would have

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Speaker 4: an opportunity to address that person. And this is the

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Speaker 4: perfect time because they may be listening.

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Speaker 1: Don't, guys, if you're worried, don't because you'll know the

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Speaker 1: instant I'm a multimillionaire, because you will not hear from

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Speaker 1: me anymore. Like, Yeah, I've never understood guys like Elon Musk,

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Speaker 1: like you could be you could be hiding in the mountains,

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Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know, hunting your fellow man for sport.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. It just shows how deep like just psychosexual compulsion runs. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: Eon is this wealthy and needs to uh have all

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Speaker 4: these ploys for attention every day?

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Speaker 3: Same like fucking JK. Rowling, just shut the fuck up.

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Speaker 1: Why are you doing this? Yeah, it just goes to

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Speaker 1: show how deeply broken so many, so many people are.

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Speaker 1: And I am also deeply broken, but not that kind

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Speaker 1: of deeply broken.

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Speaker 3: Because because if we would, you would never hear from

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Speaker 3: us again.

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Speaker 1: You'd be like absolutely not.

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Speaker 3: I'd be okay, you remember those people and they'd be like,

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Speaker 3: oh did I dream that?

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Speaker 1: It's like exactly, yeah, they got rich and they fucked

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Speaker 1: off the way people who aren't out of their minds too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like George R. Martin, what's George R. Martin up to?

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Speaker 1: He lives in a fucking like lighthouse. He bought a

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Speaker 1: lighthouse and now he doesn't go out in public anymore.

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Speaker 4: He got so rich he's like, I'm not going to

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Speaker 4: complete the things that got me rich.

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Speaker 1: That's admirable and it is. It is quite a flex Yeah, that.

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Speaker 2: Also please could you please finish it, sir? Respectfully?

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Speaker 1: Now at this point, at this point, I just enjoy

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Speaker 1: the standard he's set for all authors, Like, once you

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Speaker 1: sell your show to HBO, fuck off. Just go write

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Speaker 1: something right, literally, anything other than what people want from you.

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Speaker 1: All right, back to the episode at hand. So, in

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Speaker 1: part one we went into significant detail about what Jeane

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Speaker 1: Spriggs had to say about child abuse, and it was

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Speaker 1: a lot. This was not, as I noted, out of

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Speaker 1: step with other Jesus Movement churches. Where Jane really went

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Speaker 1: off though, was in the field of biblical racism. Now,

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Speaker 1: the religious right always has a solid grounding and being

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Speaker 1: racist as hell, the singular cause that it launched, like

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Speaker 1: the religious right in the United States became a political

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Speaker 1: entity as resistance to forced integration. Right, it was the

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Speaker 1: idea that religious schools would have to let black kids in.

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Speaker 1: Like that is where the religious right comes from. This

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Speaker 1: is not like debatable specifically, like yeah, anyway, the religious

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Speaker 1: right comes after the Jesus Movement right, which feeds into it,

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Speaker 1: but also like chunks of the Again, this is not

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Speaker 1: like a uniform set of beliefs because some of the

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Speaker 1: churches that come out of the Jesus Movement are extremely

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Speaker 1: anti racist. Right, that is a chunk of like who

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Speaker 1: comes out of this, And I should note that doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean they don't suck, because a really good example of

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Speaker 1: an anti racist church that sucks ass is the Westboro

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Speaker 1: Baptist Church. They were as hateful in their heyday as

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Speaker 1: hateful an abuse of a church as has ever existed

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Speaker 1: in this country. If you're not aware of them, if

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Speaker 1: you ever saw people holding up those God that hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, slur signs outside of like funerals for gay

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Speaker 1: people and stuff, that's the Westboro Baptist Church. They are

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Speaker 1: terrible people, but not racist. Founder Fred Phelps in fact,

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Speaker 1: got his start as a civil rights attorney. He was

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Speaker 1: like a very active and prominent lawyer fighting for equal

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Speaker 1: civil rights for black people in the United States. He

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Speaker 1: was an outrageous bigot and an extreme child abuser. It's

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Speaker 1: just proof that you don't have to be racist in

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Speaker 1: those things. Like, you know, I'm not saying this to

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Speaker 1: praise the man. He was a monster. It's just to

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Speaker 1: show you, like different people, like the kind of splinters

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Speaker 1: off of the Jesus Movement are not uniform in their

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Speaker 1: attitudes here. Likewise, Jim Jones is cult right, which is

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Speaker 1: definitely a part of this conversation. Also founded as like

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Speaker 1: a kind of a big part of what drew them

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Speaker 1: together was like resistance to the racism of like American

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Speaker 1: mainstream culture. A lot of members of his community were

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Speaker 1: mixed race relationships. He really recruited heavily from black people

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Speaker 1: and from like folks who were like ostracized and abused

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Speaker 1: by mainstream American culture. That was a big thing of

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Speaker 1: like what brought them together and why they eventually felt

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Speaker 1: the need to go to Guyana. So the Twelve Tribes

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Speaker 1: would seem to have a lot in common with Jones

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Speaker 1: on the surface, but Jean Spriggs is the opposite, like

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Speaker 1: were some of these other sort of cult movements that

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Speaker 1: form out of this, this this Jesus movement are very

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Speaker 1: much reacting to the Civil rights era, and Gene is

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Speaker 1: more on the side of, you know, what's going to

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Speaker 1: become kind of the mainstream religious right thing where you're

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Speaker 1: you're very one way or the other, very kind of

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Speaker 1: like Koily being a bigot. Jane does not have any

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Speaker 1: like he's not cloaking this in anything. He's not doing

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Speaker 1: this like, oh, we're against integration because it's you know,

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Speaker 1: the state taking over from the church and like what

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Speaker 1: is a religious you know, educational institution. He is just

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Speaker 1: outright hateful of black people, right, Like that is the

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Speaker 1: that is the teachings of the Twelve Tribes. And as

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Speaker 1: the tribes begin to spread out, first of Vermont and

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Speaker 1: then to locations in the Carolinas and then overseas to Germany,

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Speaker 1: France and beyond, Gene begins preaching more vehement strains of hate.

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Speaker 1: It starts with his lectures against homosexuality, which by the

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Speaker 1: late eighties had evolved from aids as God's punishment to

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Speaker 1: gay people need the death penalty. That's the official Twelve

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Speaker 1: Tribes teaching here. He also increasingly clamps down on the

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Speaker 1: freedom of his female followers. Women over the years are

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Speaker 1: banned from using birth control and then banned from giving

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Speaker 1: birth without painkillers, and his justification is women shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: using painkillers to give birth because they have to atone

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Speaker 1: for Eve's original sin. The only way for women to like,

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Speaker 1: you know, make up to God the fact that they

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Speaker 1: ate that apple, is to not use medicine when they

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Speaker 1: give birth. Wonder what Adam's atonement for original sin is?

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Speaker 1: Why does he get to take Do men get to

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Speaker 1: take painkillers? Still?

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Speaker 4: Question, Well, Adam didn't come. It's not Adam's fault. Like

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Speaker 4: that's I think that's truly, that's the rationale, right, Like

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Speaker 4: Adam wouldn't have done it if Eve wasn't connising and

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Speaker 4: listening to the devil so forever, like you can just

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Speaker 4: do what you want.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So the commonality between all

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Speaker 1: of this stuff, all of these different kind of things

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Speaker 1: that are really toxic about the Twelve Tribes is Jene's

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Speaker 1: obsession with obedience gay people, in his eyes are refusing

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Speaker 1: God's command, and so they have to be destroyed. That

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Speaker 1: is the penalty for disobedience women. Obviously, you can't destroy

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Speaker 1: women because you need them to make more cult members,

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Speaker 1: but they still have to pay for the sin of

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Speaker 1: Eve's disobedience. Right Like's, it was such a crime that

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Speaker 1: all women have to atone for it. Children who do

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Speaker 1: something as mild was pull away when they're a baby

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Speaker 1: being wiped also have to be beaten, because any kind

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Speaker 1: of disobedience to authority is the devil. Right, this becomes

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Speaker 1: Jane's favorite topic. He wrote often about Miriam, Moses's elder sister,

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Speaker 1: and Aaron, Moses's brother, who had opposed Moses when he

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Speaker 1: wanted to take an Ethiopian wife. God was livid at

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Speaker 1: their disobedience and cursed Miriam with leprosy. And this is

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Speaker 1: like one of Jean's favorite stories because it illustrates how

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Speaker 1: it illustrates in his eyes, how like sharp and immediate

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Speaker 1: and violent the punishment for any kind of disobedience has

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Speaker 1: to be. And Jean would often use the story of

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Speaker 1: Miriam and Aaron when he would talk about the responsibility

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Speaker 1: children have to obey without thought or question quote. This

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Speaker 1: is him talking about Miriam and Aaron. They did not

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Speaker 1: know our authority. They knew about it, but didn't know it.

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Speaker 1: Since the knowledge of authority seals mouths and settles matters

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Speaker 1: and many problems, doesn't it? Children in youth? Though Miriam

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Speaker 1: spoke against Moses, her words were restrained. Therefore she could, finally,

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Speaker 1: after being leprous and sent outside the camp, find repentance

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Speaker 1: and be restored. When Miriam turned white with leprosy, she

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Speaker 1: was ostracized and took it as discipline. But some rebellious

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Speaker 1: people were not restored to fellowship because they did not

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Speaker 1: or could not repent. Now, the people he's talking about there,

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Speaker 1: the rebellious folks who were not restored to fellowship because

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Speaker 1: they refuse to repent, are black people, particularly black people

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Speaker 1: who refuse to submit to white masters. Now, like many

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Speaker 1: racist denominations of Christianity, the scriptural justification for Jean's bigotry

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Speaker 1: is a biblical character named Ham or Cham. Both names

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Speaker 1: are correct. Apparently I'm not a Bible guy, but you

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Speaker 1: can call it either way. So the short version of

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Speaker 1: the story is that Ham's son Canaan, gets cursed by

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Speaker 1: Noah and people who suck have long interpreted this curse

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Speaker 1: as the darkening of Canaan's skin. So they're like, this

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Speaker 1: is how black people were created, right, this guy does

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Speaker 1: a bad thing, he gets cursed by Noah, and that's

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Speaker 1: where black folks come from. The Curse of Ham is

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Speaker 1: a frequent justification for the enslavement of black Africans. Probably

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Speaker 1: the best known modern example of this is the LDS Church,

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Speaker 1: the Mormon Church, which since the time of Brigham Young

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Speaker 1: has taught that black people were under the curse of

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Speaker 1: Ham as well as the curse of Cain, which justified

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Speaker 1: slavery and also meant they could not be members of

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Speaker 1: the priesthood. Church banned black people from being members of

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Speaker 1: the priesthood until nineteen seventy eight. So we are we

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Speaker 1: are not talking about like ancient history here.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like the other day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, for reasons I don't like, that's the that's

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Speaker 1: how old Ron DeSantis is. That's how long that the

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Speaker 1: Mormons have been letting.

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Speaker 4: That's when Superman won with Christopher Reeves came out in

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Speaker 4: the theater.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. Maybe that's what made them do it.

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Speaker 1: So for reasons I don't fully grasp and again are

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Speaker 1: not important. Gene always uses the name Cham for Ham,

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Speaker 1: which seems to be valid, although in more recent articles

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Speaker 1: when members of the Twelve Tribes are interviewed about this,

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Speaker 1: they always use the name Ham. I couldn't tell you why.

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Speaker 1: The actual story as to why Noah cursed Ham's sons

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Speaker 1: is incredibly funny, though, like it leads to a lot

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Speaker 1: of racism, or it justifies a lot of racism. But

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Speaker 1: it's very funny because the story is that Noah, if

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Speaker 1: you remember your Bible, like when we like depict Noah

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Speaker 1: in you know, popular culture, he's always just like austere

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Speaker 1: bearded wise man. He's a total fuck up in the Bible.

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Speaker 1: Like that's kind of Noah's thing is he's fucking up

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Speaker 1: all the time, you know. And so basically, as the

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Speaker 1: story goes, he gets housed one night, just absolute blackout drunk,

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Speaker 1: and he wakes up bare ass naked, and like Cham

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Speaker 1: walks in and like sees his dad with his fucking

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Speaker 1: dick out. And the first thing that occurs to Cham,

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Speaker 1: because he's disobedient, is like he runs to his brothers

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Speaker 1: and he's like, guys, guys, you gotta see this. Dad's

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Speaker 1: like fucking hanging grain right now. So he tries to

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Speaker 1: pull them in and they're like, no, you know it's

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Speaker 1: not You're not supposed to see your dad naked. That's disobedience.

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Speaker 1: Gene writes about this moment quote Cham was insubordinate of heart,

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Speaker 1: always expecting authority to fall. So he got his chance

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Speaker 1: to show what was in him. He revealed his father's fault,

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Speaker 1: and this proved that he was not at all in

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Speaker 1: subjection to his father's authority. His subjection to his father

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Speaker 1: was merely eye service or lip service. His submission was

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Speaker 1: only half hearted. So when the opportunity presented itself, seized

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Speaker 1: it to expose his father. There was a Satanic principle

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Speaker 1: working in him. So in Chan's in Cham's son, his

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Speaker 1: offering was cursed to bond slavery, an indentured servitude. For

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Speaker 1: this entire age, from the flood to the end of

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Speaker 1: the age, Cham's descendants only hope of recovery was through

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Speaker 1: submitting to their masters from the heart, not just giving

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Speaker 1: eye or lip service, but wholeheartedly serving. After the flood,

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Speaker 1: our father gave hope to mankind to be obedient to

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Speaker 1: the addition to the Second Covenant that there would be

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Speaker 1: no half hearted submission to anyone in authority in the world.

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Speaker 1: But Cham retained his sin of having a problem with authority,

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Speaker 1: submitting outwardly but still retaining his hidden rebellion. So afterward

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Speaker 1: Cham's descendants would be under the rod, and those who

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Speaker 1: received it learned submission to authority and loved their masters,

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Speaker 1: and were prepared for the eternal age, where many of

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Speaker 1: them will be kings among the nations. So what he's

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Speaker 1: saying here is that because of this sin of Cham,

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Speaker 1: all of his descendants black people need to be slaves,

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Speaker 1: right Like, it is their moral duty to be slaw

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Speaker 1: and love it. Right, that's the That's what his argument is.

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Speaker 1: That's what he believes, and that if they're good slaves,

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Speaker 1: if they're totally obedient, then they'll get to be kings,

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Speaker 1: you know, when Jesus comes back. Right Like, that's the

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Speaker 1: that's the argument. Pretty shitty, pretty bad guy, right Like,

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Speaker 1: that's that's fucked up stuff. We don't need to like

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Speaker 1: belabor the point.

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Speaker 4: Not ideal.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't.

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Speaker 4: I didn't know. I I don't know any of that

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Speaker 4: background that this is how folks have reverse engineered rash. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: for slavery being.

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Speaker 1: Time, Yeah, one of the web Yeah. Yeah. So in

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Speaker 1: Gene's theology, one of the things he writes is that

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Speaker 1: slave masters are actually the most burdened because of the

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Speaker 1: cursive ham because it's they have so much more response.

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Speaker 1: All the slave has to do is be obedient and happy. Right,

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Speaker 1: The slave master has so much to keep caught, like

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Speaker 1: to deal with. You know, you got all these slaves

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Speaker 1: to take care of, right, That's that's the real difficult job, right.

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Speaker 4: It's more cultivating. You're cultivating as as they're is important. Obedience,

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Speaker 4: which is the most the most godly thing to yes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's interesting because he talks about like the

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Speaker 1: responsibility that a slave master has, but it's a responsibility

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Speaker 1: to God. He has no responsibility to the human beings

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Speaker 1: that he holds in bondage. Lincoln, Gene taught, was an

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Speaker 1: evil emperor, damned by God for his refusal to accept

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Speaker 1: the holy order of slavery. Again, cruel and incompetent. Confederate

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Speaker 1: slave masters had no responsibility for like the fact that

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Speaker 1: they destroyed themselves. It's all Lincoln's fault because he's he's

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Speaker 1: usurping this like rightful order of the world. Likewise, the

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Speaker 1: apartheid government of South Africa bore no responsibility for its

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Speaker 1: brutality and corruption. Instead, the Black Africans who fought for

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Speaker 1: civil rights have damned all black people to endless generations

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Speaker 1: of suffering by removing apartheid.

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Speaker 4: This is why they moved to Vermont, Like, I mean Vermont.

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Speaker 1: They stay. I think that's part of why they pick it.

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Speaker 1: But they move all over the place, right, Like they're

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Speaker 1: going to be in call eventually, like twenty something states.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: Wow, So yeah. I found a fascinating article published by

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Speaker 1: the Cult News Network in twenty twenty one, the year

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Speaker 1: Gene died that gives us an idea of how his

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Speaker 1: teachings continue to be carried on in the modern day.

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Speaker 1: The author set in sat in on a worship session

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Speaker 1: which included a lecture on sham slash ham from a

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Speaker 1: church teacher named Mevesser quote the Twelve Tribes. Teacher also

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Speaker 1: explained that all of the slaves before the Civil War

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Speaker 1: were happy and care free and grateful to be under

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Speaker 1: the tutelage of the white man. Meveser taught that even

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Speaker 1: if a slave was being whipped by his or her

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Speaker 1: master on some plantation, all of the other slaves were

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Speaker 1: happy that this errant slave received discipline and grateful that

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Speaker 1: their master had provided it. Meveser said once that the

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Speaker 1: evil Lincoln set the slaves free, poor Ham did not

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Speaker 1: know what to do since he was no longer under

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Speaker 1: the loving hand of Jaffeth, and so society in the

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Speaker 1: United States turned into a total mess, according to the

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Speaker 1: Twelve Tribes, because it devis from this divine doctrine. So

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Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. Nice nice folks. Now, the study group

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Speaker 1: here included one black woman, the only African American member

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Speaker 1: of that particular Twelve Tribes community, Bummer.

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Speaker 4: I was just thinking about her, yeah, in the situation.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, Well, it's so I know who this person

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Speaker 1: is because of other articles I've read. But I do

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Speaker 1: want to read this quote about her from this article

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Speaker 1: because I find it like both very unsettling and sad

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Speaker 1: and kind of worth discussing. Mebser then called the only

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Speaker 1: female African American member of the community are Mammy and

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Speaker 1: praised her for being a humble Mammy servant. He stated

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Speaker 1: his conviction that the only way in the world that

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Speaker 1: shem Ham and Jayfath could truly live together in peace

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Speaker 1: and harmony is in the Body of the Messiah aka

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Speaker 1: the Twelve Tribes, not mixed up together in the Satanic

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Speaker 1: world where godly boundaries have been erased, where the races

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Speaker 1: will only fight amongst themselves. Ultimately, according to this Twelve

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Speaker 1: Tribes doctrine, Ham left on his own will only self

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Speaker 1: destruct unless he has Jfth to guide and protect him.

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Speaker 1: That's white people. At the meeting, one African American disciple

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Speaker 1: in the room thirty or forty people were there, stood

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Speaker 1: up and confessed hesitantly that he was feeling offended in

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Speaker 1: his flesh. He said, we're always talking about welcoming Ham

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Speaker 1: into the body of the Messiah, but most folks who

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Speaker 1: are aware of the nation of Ham would be very

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Speaker 1: offended by this teaching. He continued, Black folks were not

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Speaker 1: happy about their situation, and they certainly did not enjoy

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Speaker 1: being slaves. And I don't want to leave this room

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Speaker 1: with people thinking that it's true. So it's not like

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Speaker 1: especially now. And again this is twenty twenty one, which

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Speaker 1: I think may factor in why there was some resistance

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Speaker 1: to this, But that's they're still teaching the same things

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Speaker 1: that Spriggs was writing, you know, in the early eighties

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Speaker 1: about this stuff. It's pretty fucked up.

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Speaker 4: I have a hard time wrapping my head around like

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Speaker 4: being like everything else than this is cool, but their

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Speaker 4: ideas of race aren't great, Like I and then to

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Speaker 4: speak and then to get up and speak about that

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Speaker 4: seems like it would take like a particular kind of bravery.

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Speaker 1: It's strange, right, it is like it is. I think

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Speaker 1: about it a little bit like how you've got these guys,

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Speaker 1: you know, every now and then you get a Republican

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Speaker 1: who's into all of the other shitty stuff that the

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Speaker 1: right does. But like John McCain, they don't like torture,

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Speaker 1: right because, like they have, that is a personal thing

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Speaker 1: they've experienced with. So he's not going to be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: people are amazing. Our capacity for compartmentalization is bitterly unmatched.

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Speaker 4: I've gotten this far with a very well honed ability

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Speaker 4: to compartmental Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Truly remarkable. As the Twelve Tribes continued to buy property

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Speaker 1: and create new communes around the United States and the world,

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Speaker 1: child abuse continue to be a regular fact of life.

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Speaker 1: In June of nineteen eighty seven, Patricia Jones, David Jones's wife,

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Speaker 1: had her fifth child, a daughter named Shoa Shua shuah,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess. She recalls this as being a particularly

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Speaker 1: good time. For the most part, the colt was not

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Speaker 1: yet as extreme as it would become. They were able

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Speaker 1: to go like camping on the weekends, you know. They

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Speaker 1: families would do swimming trips to the lake. You know

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Speaker 1: there was the discipline was severe, but you also still

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Speaker 1: had something of a life. This gets clamped down on

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Speaker 1: as the years grow on and Jeane Spriggs gets older.

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Speaker 1: He starts to restrict his followers from more and more pleasures.

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Speaker 1: First he bans holiday celebrations, then he abans birthdays. After

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Speaker 1: several followers who had owned substantial property and loaned it

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Speaker 1: to the church left, taking their property with them, he

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Speaker 1: forbade members from owning any money or private property from

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Speaker 1: now on. As soon as you join, you are expected

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Speaker 1: to sign over your house, your car, your basic appliances,

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Speaker 1: you know, stuff like your refrigerators and stuff to the

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Speaker 1: Twelve Tribes. The former member who wrote that article in

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Speaker 1: the Chattanoogaan, who I cited last episode, recalled how this

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Speaker 1: process worked even for people who had very little to

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Speaker 1: sign over. All I had was an old, bashed up

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Speaker 1: car and seventy dollars. I had no problem giving them

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Speaker 1: my car, but I did not disc the money I

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Speaker 1: had because it was all that I had, which you know,

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Speaker 1: she does eventually get out, so that's this person does

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Speaker 1: eventually get out, so that's good for them. But like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they'll take your like beat to shit old car. If

401
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Speaker 1: you've got a house, they'll take that. If you've got

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Speaker 1: a business, they'll certainly take.

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Speaker 4: That, right And it seems like a very it's like

404
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 4: very popular cult behavior too. Yeah, with assets and then

405
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 4: put it into your real estate portfolio. Yes, because you

406
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 4: said what they had thirty six million dollars in.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, they've done quite well for themselves. Spriggs commanded

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Speaker 1: ever more frequent punishments for his members. Shiwa recalls being

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Speaker 1: spanked for pretending a rolled up towel was a doll

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Speaker 1: because this was this is both she had violated their

411
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Speaker 1: prescriptions against private property because now she has a doll.

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Speaker 1: But also you're not allowed to imagine things like it's

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Speaker 1: a sin to imagine. So she gets beaten for pretending

414
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,399
Speaker 1: that towel is a doll. She's also hit when she

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Speaker 1: doesn't eat enough. She's hit when she's taking caught taking

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Speaker 1: food from the refrigerator. She's hit from her parents and

417
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Speaker 1: from other adults when she's not respectful enough at communal dinners.

418
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Speaker 1: And this is the kind of thing where this Spriggs

419
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Speaker 1: encourages parents to abuse their own and other people's children.

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Speaker 1: And he also every time there's a gathering, he will

421
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Speaker 1: pressure the adults to hit their kids more. He'll tell them, quote,

422
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Speaker 1: you should be proud of these wounds that your children bear.

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Speaker 1: If you love your children, you will not be spare

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Speaker 1: be swayed by their screams, which is I don't know,

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Speaker 1: you could kind of sum up America that way, right,

426
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Speaker 1: Like you love your children, he will not be swayed

427
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Speaker 1: by their screams. Very very appropriate line for this country.

428
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Speaker 1: But not all parents go along with the escalating violence.

429
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Speaker 1: Mary Wiseman, wife of the second in command of the cult,

430
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Speaker 1: grew increasingly unhappy after Spriggs paddled her six year old daughter.

431
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 1: She threatened to take her kids and leave. Ultimately, she

432
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 1: decides not to go. I think it's just because doing

433
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: that would mean getting cut off financially and losing all

434
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 1: all of her family members right the whole everything she

435
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,959
Speaker 1: knows at this point, she's lived here so long, like

436
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 1: you have to give up all of your connections if

437
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 1: you leave right, and so she doesn't take her kids away. Ultimately,

438
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 1: Wiseman is going to die very young at age thirty

439
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 1: nine of cervical cancer. She dies in part because Spriggs

440
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: will not let her receive modern medical care. When she dies,

441
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 1: he then tells his followers that her unconfessed sin of

442
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: bucking authority was what had killed her. Quote guilt and

443
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,600
Speaker 1: unconfessed sin is how you get sick. This is why

444
00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 1: people die young.

445
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,119
Speaker 4: Pretty cool, Yeah, I have I have such a like,

446
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 4: my feelings towards people who are in a cult for

447
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 4: a long time are complicated. Yeah, because like largely because

448
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 4: you're like, there is there seems to be a point

449
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 4: of no return for being able to get out in

450
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 4: a real way, And then you have kids and you

451
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 4: pass it on to them in one way or another,

452
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 4: and you're just like, ugh, like it's.

453
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,119
Speaker 1: Well, and it's also why if you talk to and

454
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: the whole field of like cult deprogramming is complex and

455
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,719
Speaker 1: uh sure to a degree, pretty fucked up, but like

456
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 1: one of the things that is really durably true and

457
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 1: really maybe the only good advice I would give someone

458
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: who was like, I have a family member and a

459
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: cult is past a certain point, don't argue with them,

460
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 1: don't fight about it. Just tell them, hey, you know,

461
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: if anytime you want to talk about anything, like I'm here,

462
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: make sure they know they have a door open, like,

463
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 1: because you can't, you can't fight it out of them.

464
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 4: Right, that's great almost everything, Yeah, that's great. It's just

465
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 4: like just be there. Yeah, functionally, if you're able to.

466
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 1: Be, Yeah, don't fight them, you know, because again, past

467
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,119
Speaker 1: a certain point. I'm not saying like, if they're early in,

468
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 1: don't try to warn someone, don't try to be like, hey,

469
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 1: I found this fucked up info. But like, if they

470
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,719
Speaker 1: are straight up in the cult, the most important thing

471
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: is that they know they can talk to you, right,

472
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 1: because then maybe they'll be able to get out the stories.

473
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 1: When you read about stories people who escape from the

474
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: Twelve Tribes, it's generally like they'll wind up at some

475
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: family member's house who they you know, hadn't talked to

476
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 1: in years, but knew that they could you know, count on. Yeah,

477
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 1: and yeah. The people who never get out are generally

478
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: the people who don't have that right.

479
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 4: Right, because like you, if you leave, you know, I

480
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 4: just can't imagine in a lot of ways, a less

481
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 4: forgiving society to be dumped off into. It's like you

482
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 4: leave the cult, you have nothing, and now you're just

483
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 4: in America with.

484
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: Nothinghing, Yeah exactly, it's yeah, a desperate situation. Yeah, So

485
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 1: to be entirely so Gene, you know, Wiseman becomes kind

486
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,240
Speaker 1: of this nexus of revenge against him. But luckily for Jean,

487
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: she gets cancer. He stops her from getting medical care.

488
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 1: And this is I think there's a degree to which

489
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: this was tactical for him, Like if she dies, he

490
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: loses a problem. But he is going to quickly extend

491
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,719
Speaker 1: this rule across the entire flock, right, it is it

492
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 1: is pretty from a pretty early stage, like you are

493
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: not allowed to go to the doctor if you're in

494
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: this organization, especially children. Part because he doesn't want children

495
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: to go to doctors because doctors will report child abuse,

496
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: right the blue marks. Yeah, and the way he just

497
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: he's like, well, look, you don't need to go to

498
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 1: the doctor. If you're following God in your heart too,

499
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: you can't just is not just enough to do the

500
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: right things you have to. If there's rebellion in your heart,

501
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: then that's why you get sick. So if someone gets sick,

502
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: you can just say they must have rebelled in their

503
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: heart right, they must not have. Yeah. Now, if you're wondering,

504
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: did this policy cause any kids to die? Yes, it

505
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,880
Speaker 1: sure did. And I'm going to quote from Pacific Standard

506
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: magazine here. Sorry, Sophie, we made it a long stretch

507
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: of that. I know, a bunch of dead kids.

508
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 3: Last episode, when you started mentioning certain things, I was like, Okay, yeah,

509
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 3: said kids have died.

510
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 2: Okay, but here here it is.

511
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, Sophie, this is this is going to be.

512
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: This is the high body count episode a medium medium

513
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 1: body count.

514
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 2: Also take an ad break to prepare.

515
00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know who won't force children to avoid life

516
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 1: saving medical care?

517
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 3: God? I hope not the.

518
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 1: Sponsors of the Unless it's the Reagan Coins people. We're

519
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: back and we're talking about our coins. Sorry, before we.

520
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 4: Get into the before we get into the brutality of

521
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 4: this next phase. How genuinely professionally curious, How do you

522
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,880
Speaker 4: too take care of your mental health and dealing with

523
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 4: what you deal with every day? Like I feel like

524
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 4: you talk you're really talking about some stuff like do

525
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 4: you do you go on long walks or do you

526
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 4: uh you have a therapist on retainer.

527
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been playing the boulders Gate the new recently.

528
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: That's been that's been great.

529
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 2: We have animals and stuff.

530
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's fine, you know, that's very good. I just

531
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 4: want to make sure. I just want to make sure

532
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 4: you have an outlet.

533
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 3: I produced the opposite of the show, which is cool

534
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 3: people who did cool stuff, And.

535
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 4: Oh that's a cool.

536
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: And I'm just fundamentally okens fine, h well all the time.

537
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, rob People who can't see Robert's just been lifting

538
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,680
Speaker 4: weights this entire time, so I think that's probably how

539
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 4: he gets through it.

540
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: It's nice.

541
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're not wrong.

542
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: So okay, here we're back and we're going to talk

543
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 1: about all these dead kids. Here's Pacific Standard magazine. During

544
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: a whooping cough epidemic that swept the community in the

545
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: late nineteen eighties, Bruce Wittenberg grew alarmed when his fifteen

546
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: month old became sick. He had more than a half

547
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: dozen former and current members say he consulted the elders,

548
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: who told him if God wants her to live, he'll

549
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: save her. She died a few hours later. It was

550
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: the worst thing that happened to us, said Wittenberg, who

551
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,239
Speaker 1: left the tribes in two thousand and one. During her

552
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: second pregnancy, another former member, Ruth Williams, developed placenta previa,

553
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: a dangerous condition in which the placenta blocks the birth canal.

554
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: She was told that if she prayed hard enough, God

555
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: would move the placina out of the way. Despite beseeching

556
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: God on her hands and knees, Williams started him when

557
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: she went into labor and lost consciousness, at which point

558
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: she was driven to a hospital, she says, and dumped

559
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 1: on the sidewalk outside the emergency room. She woke to

560
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: the news that her son had been stillborn. Another woman

561
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: who labored for days was only brought to a hospital

562
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: after her first child died inside her.

563
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 4: So pretty bad, did the person who do we know

564
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 4: if the person who is dumped on the sidewalk left

565
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 4: the call or did she have to walk back? Did

566
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 4: she have to go back to the cult?

567
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think this is how she left, right, Like,

568
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: oh yeah, so Wiseman's brief spring of resistance had horrified

569
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: Sprigs right, so he clamps down like She is generally

570
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: seen as the dividing line between a lot of the

571
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: more like abusive and restrictive things that he puts in

572
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: for his cult. Like basically, before Wiseman, you're kind of

573
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: able to have some sort of a life even though

574
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: there's these very harsh rules about child abuse. And after Wiseman,

575
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: he doesn't want people doing anything that can give give

576
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: them even a second of happiness because that it's the

577
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: root of a disobedience. Right, if you have anything in

578
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: your life at all besides his teachings, you know that's

579
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: that's not going to work for him.

580
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 4: I'm kind of I'm surprised in a way it ended

581
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 4: up making it as long as it did, because like

582
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 4: usually you have some like something like something to like

583
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 4: have people be able to have an outlet that goes

584
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 4: against all of your other authoritarian tendencies. But this person

585
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 4: just seems like, top to bottom, the worst authoritarian.

586
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: I think there are. For one thing, it's different communities

587
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: are a little different, so they're not all as strict

588
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: as they're supposed to be on paper. A lot of

589
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: it is that the people who join, Like I read

590
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: one account of a dude who's like the father of

591
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:42,959
Speaker 1: a kid who gets pulled into the cult and he's like,

592
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: it's a cult. I know that they've done bad things.

593
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: My kid is bipolar and troubled and was living on

594
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: the streets before he found these people, so like, I'm

595
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: not sure it was. I think net it's been a

596
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: positive for him because now he has like a place

597
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: in the structure. Like again, I'm not like commenting on that.

598
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: That's just what this guy said, And I do suspect

599
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: I think based on interviews I've read, there are a

600
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: number of people who are like, yeah, there's things that

601
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: are bad or fucked up or like you know that

602
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: you have to skirt around, but like, it is a community,

603
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: we have a life. You know, you're not exposed to

604
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: the vicissitudes of existing under capitalism as much. You get

605
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: to kind of hide from the hard parts of life totally.

606
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 4: Like this is the out This is like one of

607
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 4: the outcomes of having next to zero social safety. Yes exactly,

608
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 4: yehople step in, people step in, and then it becomes

609
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 4: an alternative.

610
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: There's a lot that's bad about this, But what am

611
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: I going to do, like find out how to make

612
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: like rent and stuff on my own? I've been in

613
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: this culture. I don't have like marketable skills. I don't

614
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: feel a lot of people I think that is kind

615
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 1: of where this goes for them. So by the early

616
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, law enforcement in several states had tried and

617
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: generally failed to investigate and act on allegations of abuse

618
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: in the cult. The only realistic threat to janes control

619
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: of these kids came from dis affected parents who had

620
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: custody of their children. In the years that followed Mary's death,

621
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: tribal elders started telling parents that they were not fit

622
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: to raise their own kids. Children were sent away to

623
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: other communes to be raised, and married couples were forced

624
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: to split up. One example of this particular horror comes

625
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: from a family at a Twelve Tribes community in nineteen

626
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: ninety two. Noah, Yoshia, and Ezra were three brothers aged

627
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: seven to twelve. One day, they were all playing in

628
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 1: a tree when an elder's wife told them they had

629
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: to stop. They made the mistake of telling her that

630
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: their dad had given them permission, and according to Spriggs,

631
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: this was an act of Satanic rebellion. So the elder

632
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: married to that woman came by and he grabbed them.

633
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: He locked Noah in the furnace room of a house

634
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,479
Speaker 1: and told him to write down a comprehensive list of

635
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 1: all of his sins. This took a full week. Since

636
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: Noah was nine, he didn't have that many sins, right,

637
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: So he's going to keep locked in there until the

638
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: list is long enough, so he has to keep start

639
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: making up sins, right, So he's like writing about stealing

640
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: pennies and shit just to like fill paper while he's alone,

641
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: and he's being like starved here, right, He's in a

642
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: furnace room, he's shitting in a bucket, he's getting one

643
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: meal a day while he continues to expand this list

644
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: of sins until it's long enough for the elder. But

645
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: the elder is not willing to accept like this because

646
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: this is like a little nine year old church kid's

647
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: idea of sins and they're just not bad enough for

648
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: this guy. So this guy's like, no, I know what

649
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 1: you must have done. You must be having gay sex.

650
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: And Noah, being a nine year old who has been homeschooled,

651
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 1: is like, I don't know what that is. And so

652
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: this elder then sits down and explains in like very

653
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: pornographic detail, like you get the feeling this is like

654
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: a kink for this guy, right, Like you get stories

655
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: like this in these cults, we will be talking about

656
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 1: more of them. So after this whole experience ends, all

657
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: three boys are taken from their parents and sent to

658
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: different homes. Noah goes on like he's put in another

659
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 1: commune in another state, and he's like paired up with

660
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: other boy his age who are called his brothers, and

661
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: their main job is to beat the shit out of

662
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 1: him all the time because he's a corruptor, right because

663
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: he's gay. Now, according to Yeah, this one of the

664
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: elders in the church, he's not allowed to rejoin his

665
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 1: parents for more than a year. Spriggs was nearly as

666
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 1: concerned with the possibility of sexual contact between heterosexual kids

667
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 1: as he was with you know, the other kind. Eventually,

668
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 1: he forbade all physical contact between non married and non

669
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: related males and females. If children were caught in the

670
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: act of making any other kind of physical contact with

671
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: other kids of the opposite sex, they would be beaten.

672
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: If young adults or adults treated as such, had any

673
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 1: kind of sexual contact, which in the Twelve tribes included

674
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: holding hands and kissing, the punishment was marriage. Like if

675
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: you catch like a boy and a girl holding hands,

676
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: they have to get married now, right, do.

677
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 4: You know, do we know like what their ORG chart

678
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 4: looks like? Like who is enforcing this stuff? Is there?

679
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 4: Is there like a mayer of the tribe or what.

680
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: Is the each each commune has a group of elders

681
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: who seems like make decisions in common. And then Spriggs

682
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 1: is obviously Spriggs and his wife are are the big

683
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: overall leaders. Now there is a degree to which the

684
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 1: org chart is a little bit of a mystery. Still,

685
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 1: I think in coming years, as more and more people

686
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: leave and we get more detailed, we might will probably

687
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: know more. That's what I can tell from from what's

688
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: the research?

689
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: You said young adults? But what's that? What is what

690
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 2: is that considered here?

691
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: I mean it seems like thirteen to fifteen year olds

692
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,879
Speaker 1: are not uncommonly getting married off. So I would say

693
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: when they say young adults, some of them are adults

694
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: and some of them are what we would.

695
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 2: Call children, right, yeah, yeah.

696
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: Now sometimes they are being married to other kids their age.

697
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: But like this is a you know, it's not uncommon.

698
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 2: For the other old hands.

699
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, I must be, I must I'm also I'm

700
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 4: sorry if I'm getting ahead of us here, but are

701
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,479
Speaker 4: are these kids working like are they.

702
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, as soon as like you, they only do

703
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: a few years of school, you kick them out of that,

704
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: like you don't even really need him to.

705
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: Read for punish Kids with marriage are also doing.

706
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 4: Child Yeah yeah, yeah, I was. I'm curious if this

707
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 4: had to do with adding to their real estate portfolios.

708
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 4: These kids, these kids must be working for free problems. Yeah,

709
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:19,879
Speaker 4: and a lot of situations.

710
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,439
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. In the early days, boys and girls could

711
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 1: at least socialize to some extent during the homeschool educations

712
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 1: that they received. But this also made Sprigs uncomfortable and

713
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: so he bans co ed education, which coupled with the

714
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 1: absolute lack of any sex ed for children, led to

715
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: some peculiar behavior from the young men of the community.

716
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: To be specific, they started fucking the farm animals. This

717
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 1: is This is a problem in Germany, in the United

718
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: States and multiple different like state communes. This is like,

719
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: there's like this outbreak of bestiality. Now it's Pacific standard

720
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: bag just say that, like, yeah, these kids start experimenting

721
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: with bestiality. It is unclear to me if they actually did.

722
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 1: For one thing, this cult defines two kids holding hands

723
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: as sexual content, right or kissing or whatever. That's not sex,

724
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: we can all say, right, reasonable people, because you know,

725
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: it's not sexual contact like kiss another kid or whatever

726
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: or hold their hand. So I don't know if actually

727
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot of bestiality going on or it, Like.

728
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 4: I do want to note. This just came up the

729
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 4: other day I reread The Last Picture Show, which I

730
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 4: hadn't read since high school, by Larry McMurtry about kids

731
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 4: in Texas. I was not prepared how much this, like

732
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 4: classic American novel had cow fucking in it, Like, oh yeah,

733
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 4: it was like pages pages dedicated to fucking guys.

734
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: And look, that's accurate. I come from Texas. I grew

735
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: up on a cow farm. You know, that's just what

736
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: people know. But we don't know if I mean, maybe

737
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: it is what they do, right a group hysteria in

738
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 1: which were yeah, I don't yeah, And that's that's the thing.

739
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,479
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's actually a lot of kids

740
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: having sex with animals or if this is like a

741
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 1: moral panic, because maybe they're like forcing kids to come

742
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 1: up with new sins that they've done, right, sure, and

743
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: so some kids like, yeah, maybe that's how it starts.

744
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: I don't know that it's not certainly not impossible, Like

745
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: there are like that a bunch of confused kids would

746
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: experiment with animals too, like it could happen. Right. The

747
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: main evidence that supports the idea that some abuse of

748
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: animals took place is although, honestly, when kids are this abused,

749
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: I don't know that i'd describe what they're doing to

750
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 1: the animals as abuse, like you have so fundamentally damaged

751
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: these children like I wouldn't. I wouldn't like want to

752
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: morally condemn them from for the sheer confusion that must

753
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: be growing up in this this circumstance. But in two

754
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: thousand and six, Spriggs ordered the young men accused of

755
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 1: bestiality to execute all of the animals they had allegedly molested.

756
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: This includes thirty sheep, multiple cows, goats, and chicken. So

757
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 1: you know, if it was something that was made up,

758
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: they went quite far in suppressing it. Now, God, it's

759
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: valuable to contrast the severity with which Spriggs treated these

760
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,840
Speaker 1: allegations of bestiality to how he and his cult leaders

761
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: handled allegations that adult members had molested children. Right, Because

762
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: a lot less seriously as it actually turns out, Because

763
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 1: you know, fundamentally it is not necessarily a sin in

764
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: the same way in their eyes.

765
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,720
Speaker 4: Right, is it only a sin just because it's sex

766
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 4: and it's like extra not extra marital, Like I'm sure

767
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 4: it seems like having sex with children against Yeah, that's

768
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 4: not sex, Like raping children is probably like only bad

769
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 4: because of the carnal nature, because kids don't seem like

770
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 4: they're even humans in their eyes.

771
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. I think it also might be more

772
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 1: that like there's this the idea that a kid would

773
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 1: be able to turn down or stop an adult from

774
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 1: molesting them is kind of impossible within this belief system

775
00:39:54,840 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: because children are it cannot cannot disobey an adult. So

776
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 1: I think that I think that there is this like weird,

777
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: this situation created for Spriggs where there's a way in

778
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: which they cannot take this as seriously right because of this,

779
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 1: this this theology he's built of abuse. So one spring

780
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: morning in two thousand and two, cult member Kimberly Peck

781
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: noticed her husband, Jeff Leonard, who she had recently married,

782
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: heading into her daughter's tent early in the morning. Now,

783
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: Peck had joined the Twelve Tribes as a single mother.

784
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 1: Right She'd been married to Jeff after like he'd basically

785
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: been picked for her right, and they lived in she

786
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: had She had a quantcet style hut with Jeff, and

787
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: then her kids lived in another hut. And this is

788
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: on a Central Florida compound earned owned by the colt.

789
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 1: After several mornings of watching Jeff leave early to fetch

790
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: their daughters for the day, she decided to follow them.

791
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: She got suspicious, and I'm going to quote now from

792
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,759
Speaker 1: an article in the Broward Palm Beach New Times. As

793
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 1: Peck watched in fear, forty five year old Leonard began

794
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: caressing one of the girls, kissing his stepdaughter intimately, and

795
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: rubbing his hands over praise the place as he shouldn't,

796
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,479
Speaker 1: she told authorities later, when he was finished, he moved

797
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,439
Speaker 1: her over to her younger sister, Peck claims. Peck says

798
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: that she would have tried to stop it if she

799
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: weren't so alone in the woods. Soon Peck would learn

800
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: how alone she was. Peck spoke to her children, and

801
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: all three of them, two daughters and a son, said

802
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: that they had been molested by their stepfather. Peck went

803
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 1: to the elders in twelve tribes. She wanted justice. Instead,

804
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: the tribe elders who claimed to be so strict about

805
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 1: cardinal relations that couples found holding hands are forced to marry,

806
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: covered up the abuse, and protected Leonard from the criminal charges.

807
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: They hid him at another of the Colt's properties in Georgia,

808
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: Peck says, with the concurrence of prosecutors and police. So,

809
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 1: you know, not an unexpected story, entirely very Catholic church

810
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: vibes in a lot of ways, like moving them to

811
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: another parish effectively, you know.

812
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I feel like it's it seems like a

813
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 4: logical outcome of treating children like they're inhuman and like

814
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 4: they're only there to serve you and to serve God. Ultimately,

815
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 4: like you can't take it seriously because if you take

816
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 4: it seriously, it reveals that it was inevitable due to

817
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 4: like the structure of your organization anyway, So you ultimately

818
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 4: have to hide it. Like that's why this keeps happening.

819
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Now it is, like obviously, it's

820
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,880
Speaker 1: hard to think of an environment more suited to predatory

821
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: pedophilia than the one that Spriggs has created here. Right.

822
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: Pedophiles thrive in environments in which children are isolated from

823
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: mainstream society so that there are not adults who might

824
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: notice and report their behavior. They also thrive in cultures

825
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,959
Speaker 1: where children are punished for disrespect because then they're less

826
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,320
Speaker 1: likely to try and fight back. So that you know, again,

827
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: by the everything that that Spriggs has done here has

828
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 1: created like an ideal place for predators to thrive.

829
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 4: Right well. And in this case where there is a

830
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 4: concerned mother, where that mother has like no power or

831
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 4: recourse eye, oh yeah, like that's like this whole other

832
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 4: thing is that it's like you can, yeah do it

833
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,800
Speaker 4: and if you get noticed, even if you get noticed,

834
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 4: those people don't have records.

835
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:09,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So Peck eventually left the cult because

836
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: this was the only way she could press charges against Leonard.

837
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 1: He was finally arrested and charged and convicted in two

838
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, but he was far from the only

839
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: culprit of child abuse with it like child sexual abuse

840
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: within the cult. Around the same time as all this

841
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: was happening, another cult member, David Drew's, was charged with

842
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: fondling a girl at the colt's West Palm Beach compound.

843
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 1: Police and prosecutors in DeSoto County claim that cult leadership

844
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: ignored reports against both men and took steps to impede

845
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: their investigations, and there are numerous stories from similar behavior

846
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: within cult communes around the country. The Denver Post reported

847
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 1: on this case of abuse from twenty eleven. Sometimes a

848
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: man accused of sexual abuse will be kicked out of

849
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: the cult, ex members said, but sometimes he will be

850
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: forgiven and allowed to stay. How a case is handled

851
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,399
Speaker 1: often depends on how much status the abuser has within

852
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: the cult. Frequently, children who report sexual abuse are not believed.

853
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 1: Some are punished and told the abuse was their fault.

854
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: Anderson said that as a small girl that she is

855
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 1: a small girl, told a woman she trusted about being

856
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: sexually abused. That woman brought it to other adults, and

857
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: Anderson was questioned by a male elder. She kept silent.

858
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: Another elder's wife then took her aside and questioned her.

859
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 1: She said, how do you have intercourse? And that's what

860
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 1: threw me off. I said, what is intercourse? And why

861
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: would I have it? And then she said is it

862
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: anal or vaginal? Anderson didn't know what those words meant,

863
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: and the elder's wife concluded that she was lying about

864
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 1: being abused in an attempt to get attention. Anderson said,

865
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: it's like make up your mind, like is this sinful

866
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: to teach people? And thus they shouldn't be expected to

867
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: answer questions about it or or are they lying if

868
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 1: they don't know what sex is? Like what is it's

869
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess you don't have to be

870
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 1: consistent if you're a fucking cult member whatever.

871
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I mean I think that that's kind of

872
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 4: like one of just it's one of the ways that

873
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 4: the power structure works is like not giving you the

874
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 4: tools that you need in order to report and then

875
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:00,880
Speaker 4: using the fact that you don't have the tools against you.

876
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is like a big thing with a lot

877
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: of Republican governance too, right, taking away people's tools to

878
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 1: have any kind of resistance to a lot of these

879
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: power structures. It is interesting to me that when they

880
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 1: have been forced to comment on these cases, representatives of

881
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: the Twelve Tribes tend to emphasize the importance of forgiveness

882
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 1: in their faith, a kind of mercy they rarely to

883
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: seem to extend to small children. Quote. The judge agreed

884
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:28,439
Speaker 1: to set a two hundred and fifty thousand dollars bail

885
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: for Leonard tribe elder Nelson says members haven't decided whether

886
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 1: to post the bail since they would likely have to

887
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: put up some of the tribe's property as collateral. As

888
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 1: Nelson spoke, several members worked in the blazing afternoon sun

889
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 1: building what looked like a drainage ditch to the goat pen,

890
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: and a woman in an Amish style dress brought them

891
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: water in a bucket. Nelson said the tribe will help

892
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 1: members like Leonard face their sin. He had come to

893
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,320
Speaker 1: the place where he had surrendered himself to God Yeshua,

894
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 1: and so we will always help him. Nelson said. It

895
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 1: seemed that he Leonard was being very upfront and honest

896
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 1: about his situation. So that's Nelson's this cult the elder,

897
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: and he's like, look, no, we'll support him through all

898
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 1: of his legal trials because he feels bad for repeatedly

899
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 1: molesting children. You know, that's all that matters. He's given

900
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: himself because again, it's not disobedient for an adult to

901
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: molest a child, because children have to be obedient to adults,

902
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: and it's not as long as his disobedience was to

903
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:19,960
Speaker 1: God and as long as he's truly sorry about that

904
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: has repented to God. Then yeah, then he's still one

905
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 1: of us. Right, you know who's still one of us? Podcasters?

906
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: Not child Moleston cults. Here's ads.

907
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,240
Speaker 2: Wow, that was really bad.

908
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: One of my better pivots. I feel thank you so much.

909
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 4: Here's ads.

910
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh we're back. So by the early two thousands,

911
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 1: the Twelve Tribes had at least three thousand members, probably

912
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: closer to four thousand. They operated communes in twenty two

913
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 1: states and several other countries, including England, Spain, Australia, and Germany.

914
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: The latter state Germany is where they faced one of

915
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 1: their most serious acts of state. I don't know, I

916
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,400
Speaker 1: wrote repression here, but like, I don't call it's not

917
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: really like it's one of the only times that a

918
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 1: state actually acted against them, right, in an effective way.

919
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: Corporal punishment is illegal in Germany, right, so all of

920
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: their teachings about hitting the shit out of kids, you

921
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: actually can't teach that, right, Like, you are breaking the law,

922
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: not but just by doing it, but by like spreading

923
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: this material. And so in twenty thirteen, a reporter for

924
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 1: RTLTV infiltrates one of the Twelve Tribes communes in Germany.

925
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,720
Speaker 1: Now getting into these communities, is not hard. The cult

926
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: recruits by inviting people in. Right. A lot of journalists

927
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: have gone to other meetings of theirs. Right, you can

928
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 1: come in, you can stay for a worship session. This

929
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 1: journalist pretended that they were like interested in joining, right,

930
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,760
Speaker 1: that basically they were one of these disaffected people who's

931
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: maybe looking for a cult. And they This journalist stays

932
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: in there for two days and in that brief, like

933
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: and she's filming undercover. Right, in two days captures on

934
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 1: video fifty individual incidents of child abuse. That's how frequent

935
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: this case, Like two that's not a lot of time.

936
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: It's hard to find fifty examples of anything in two

937
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: days filming, like, yeah, it's wild, Yeah, it's it's quite

938
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: quite an intense number. In one case, a little girl

939
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 1: is beaten for saying I'm tired because that's disobedient. Right,

940
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 1: So kudos don't say this often on this show. Kudos

941
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: to Germany. Here they seize all forty children and put

942
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 1: them in foster care. Right, they get those kids the

943
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,399
Speaker 1: fuck away from their parents. This sparks a police raid

944
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: on another tribe's commune in France, where four children are

945
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: taken after evidence of abuse is uncovered. These rare prosecutions

946
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: and raids, while you know, kudos to everyone involved in

947
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: that in France and Germany, do not seriously harm the

948
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 1: overall structure of the cult. The Twelve Tribes were supported

949
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 1: primarily by the businesses they started in every New State,

950
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: in town where they bought property, the yellow Deli was

951
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 1: the model, and restaurants were always a profitable endeavor. Well,

952
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: we're always a profita little endeavor in that they bring

953
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: in people, right, Another yellow Deli is started in Boulder,

954
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: where it gets a reputation for serving really good food

955
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: and continuing to draw in troubled, hungry youngsters. There's a

956
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of rail travel through Boulder, a

957
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 1: lot of like train hopping kids and stuff in that town.

958
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:20,959
Speaker 1: Like it's a good place to recruit in this way.

959
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, you can get some you can get

960
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 4: some crust punks in.

961
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:30,160
Speaker 1: Your yeah, exactly. Yeah. They also ran a cafe called

962
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: Matte Factor, matt Factor, m ate Factor in Manitou Springs,

963
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: and these are again the profit from these businesses is

964
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 1: that they bring in recruits.

965
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 4: Wellam that you can and that your dishwashers and waiters, etc.

966
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 4: Are probably working for free.

967
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, although you know, even if you want to know

968
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: how hard it is to run a restaurant, even when

969
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: you have pure slave labor doing all of the work.

970
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: Their restaurants like don't really run a profit usually, like

971
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: it's consistent loss lead for them, right, you have to

972
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: subsidize the restaurant because it's just it is fucking hard

973
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 1: to make money with a restaurant, like even if you're

974
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 1: this cult. Right, So these yellow Delis are basically their

975
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 1: loss leaders, right, while they make their real money, millions

976
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: of it through an industry that does not exactly fit

977
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: with the crunchy Jesus free kippie vibes that they put

978
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: on in public. I'm going to quote from Pacific Standard

979
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: magazine again here. Most of the Colorado Community's money comes

980
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 1: from construction companies, the ex members said. One business, Commonwealth Services, LLC,

981
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 1: was formed in twenty sixteen and registered to member Matthew

982
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: Morgan at the group's Boulder County compound on Elder Dorado

983
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 1: Springs Drive. According to records from the Colorado Secretary of

984
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: State's Office, the business uses the trade name CWS Excavating.

985
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: Its website says it's a family owned and operated septic

986
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: installation company. It's one of a number of construction companies

987
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: the Twelve Tribes is operated during the last five decades.

988
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 1: A Massachusetts based company, BOJ Construction LLC, pulled in several

989
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: million dollars a year at its height in the early

990
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 1: two thousands and drove the group's funding. X members said

991
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: young men in the cult would travel the country for jobs,

992
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: rent a little house for everybody, and work nearly around

993
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 1: the clock without pay until the job was done. So

994
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: that's how it's construction, right, They're like the fucking mob. Right,

995
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 1: They've got this gold The.

996
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 4: Gold standard of the cult job is the Heaven's Gate

997
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 4: mid nineties web development.

998
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely, groundbreaking web design. Got to hand it to

999
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 1: Heaven's Gate. They knew what they were doing.

1000
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,919
Speaker 4: They had the best hearing this that it's like, it's

1001
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 4: like uncompensated construction. Oh yeah, it's terrible.

1002
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fucking nightmare. Yeah. Now, if you'll remember, these

1003
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: folks have a little bit of Judaism mixed in with

1004
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 1: their fundamentalist Christianity, right, so they're.

1005
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 4: Not supposed to work, so probably still anti Semitic, right, Like,

1006
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 4: I haven't.

1007
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 1: Actually run into that allegation. I don't know, get like.

1008
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,359
Speaker 4: I imagine they're kind of like like Christian Zionists who

1009
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,600
Speaker 4: are like, yeah, we'll use the pieces that are important outwardly. Yeah,

1010
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 4: like behind closed doors were still you know.

1011
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 1: I will say one of the things is interesting to

1012
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 1: me about them because I've read they have a website

1013
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 1: that I've been reading, and they do make a big

1014
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,919
Speaker 1: point of being like, we're actually not one of those

1015
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: cults who believes everyone who's not a Christian goes to Hell.

1016
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: They believe that there are the thing that they specifies

1017
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: there are righteous people who are obedient to their conscience

1018
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: even if they're not Christians, and those people get to

1019
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: go to one of the heaven levels. They do kind

1020
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: of this Catholic thing where I think there's a contributory.

1021
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert on their esk on the you know,

1022
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 1: but like, yeah, I did. That is a little bit

1023
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 1: of a difference from some of the other things I

1024
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 1: found anyway, because there's this, you know, little sprig of

1025
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: Judaism mixed into everything. They're not supposed to work on

1026
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 1: the Sabbath, right, you know, right, so that that and

1027
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: spring the fact that sprigs it's also mandatory to attend

1028
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: two prayer meetings every single day. That gets in the

1029
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: way of sweet Lady capitalism, right, Like, you're losing a

1030
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 1: lot of work time if you're doing two prayers a

1031
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: day and you're not working one day of the week.

1032
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: That's just unacceptable if you're running a business in Spriggs's eyes, Right,

1033
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,719
Speaker 1: So they have to find some way. How do you

1034
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: justify making people work on the Sabbath when, like God

1035
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,600
Speaker 1: was pretty clear. You know, if you're a Bible guy,

1036
00:53:12,760 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 1: this is not there's not really like a lot of

1037
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 1: fucking around room here.

1038
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 3: You know.

1039
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 4: There's like ten to twelve rules.

1040
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's not a lot of them. Yeah,

1041
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:23,280
Speaker 1: this is a big one, but the two rules.

1042
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:24,360
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1043
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,880
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Spriggs and other cult leadership were known to

1044
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 1: declare pushes, and a push is like an exemption, a

1045
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,920
Speaker 1: temporary exemption for their working members from attending worship sessions

1046
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:38,799
Speaker 1: or from taking off the Sabbath. One former leader told

1047
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,720
Speaker 1: an interviewer, Geene would say, if it's for a good cause,

1048
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 1: God will forgive us for working all the time. What

1049
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: basically happened was everything became a push. Right, They're just

1050
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:49,400
Speaker 1: doing this all the time now because it's the money,

1051
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 1: so good right, you're you would crease your profits by

1052
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 1: so much. Businesses were held by the church or church

1053
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 1: elders via a dizzying series of interlocking LLCs, which ensured

1054
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,399
Speaker 1: that no own members actually owned property or the means

1055
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 1: to make a living for themselves. This means that there

1056
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: are a lot of cases of like former cult members

1057
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 1: who will like build a business that makes millions of

1058
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 1: dollars for the cult and then they'll leave because it's

1059
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 1: abusive and they've got nothing, right, like absolutely nothing, you know.

1060
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:16,280
Speaker 4: Wild.

1061
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And again I should note here it is illegal

1062
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: to have people work for free. It is illegal to

1063
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 1: even be like, oh, well they're donating their time, right,

1064
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: This is like like you cannot do that. It is

1065
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: against the Now people don't get punished for it, right

1066
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:35,879
Speaker 1: because this is the kind of crime that rich people commit, right,

1067
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: and these are rich people now, Sprigs is wealthy. This

1068
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 1: is a multimillion dollar cult, so it never becomes a

1069
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: prime And they also there's also some exemptions of like

1070
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:44,839
Speaker 1: if you're a business owner, you can if your kids

1071
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 1: work to some extent, and like there are like but

1072
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,800
Speaker 1: like you can't make people work for free, which is

1073
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: what the cult does. They have been in violation of

1074
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: the law to a massive extent the whole time they've existed.

1075
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 4: This is like, I mean you you had said it

1076
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 4: in reference to the construction thing that it's like the mob,

1077
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 4: but like the other place where it feels like the

1078
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 4: mob is like they had to have a lawyer help

1079
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 4: them set up those outs. Yeah, for sure, they had

1080
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 4: to have a lawyer and be like, here's how you

1081
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 4: keep your money safe within a network of lls because

1082
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 4: you don't one a layman does not know that. Now,

1083
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:19,919
Speaker 4: so they had they had like outside help in order

1084
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,239
Speaker 4: to set up this structure to work in this way.

1085
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 1: Is yeah bonkers. So yeah, this is very much illegal again,

1086
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:31,359
Speaker 1: but it's also the kind of crime the government has

1087
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 1: very little interest in prosecuting because it's it would be easy.

1088
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 1: I think part of why nothing happens is that it

1089
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 1: would be pretty easy for a Christian themed cult like

1090
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 1: the Twelve Tribes to cry religious persecution and pull ind

1091
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 1: support from the mainstream evangelical right. That hasn't really happened,

1092
00:55:47,280 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 1: but I think it's because the government never prosecuted them

1093
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,800
Speaker 1: for this kind of shit, you know. Pacific Standard magazine

1094
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 1: talked to one man who used his considerable skills to

1095
00:55:56,160 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: create a multimillion dollar construction business for the cult and

1096
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: ran it for years or a massive profit of the church. Quote.

1097
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 1: He ran a construction company that made three or four

1098
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 1: million in revenue annually, he said, which paid for about

1099
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,759
Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars in monthly expenses for the community he

1100
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 1: lived in at the time. He'd send whatever was left

1101
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,280
Speaker 1: to Hidden Nite, which is the cult headquarters. I started

1102
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:16,839
Speaker 1: that business and ran it all, but I was having

1103
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 1: a hard time buying socks for my daughter. That's what

1104
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 1: I mean about not paying labor. You're eating millet for

1105
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: breakfast and you can't buy clothes for your kids. And

1106
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: one of the black box things about this cult that

1107
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 1: like I just don't have a satisfying answer for you,

1108
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:32,879
Speaker 1: was like, are they fucking living it up? Is there

1109
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:35,359
Speaker 1: like some leadership right in a separate location and they're

1110
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 1: like living the high life. There are rumors that Spriggs

1111
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 1: spent a significant portion of the aughts living in luxury

1112
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: and the Mediterranean. I have not seen hard evidence of this, though.

1113
00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 1: He dies on a cult compound, right, or he's like

1114
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:50,399
Speaker 1: brought to the hospital from a cult compound or something

1115
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: like that. So he's in the States near the end

1116
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: of his life. I don't know, like, is he does

1117
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 1: this all turn into a financial con Is this all

1118
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: about the money? A little bit unclear to me. But

1119
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,240
Speaker 1: the money's going somewhere, right, Like a lot of money

1120
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 1: is being made, and that somewhere is the headquarters of

1121
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 1: the cult, right, they are getting everything so well.

1122
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 4: In some cases, the money is just the power that

1123
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 4: allows you to do the thing that you get off on.

1124
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 4: And that's what I mean, that's I don't know because

1125
00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 4: I only have what you've told me to this point.

1126
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 4: But like that to me is what it sounds like.

1127
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 4: Like this guy sounds like a true believer who also

1128
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 4: is probably like really getting off on the power pieces

1129
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 4: that he's able he's able to facilitate by way of

1130
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 4: being in this position, and he's able to maintain that position.

1131
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,320
Speaker 4: To your point, like if you have that much if

1132
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 4: you have that much money in ultimately in real estate,

1133
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 4: no one can really touch you unless unless you're robbing

1134
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 4: other people with money. Like that's when the government intervenes.

1135
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

1136
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 4: After Waco, the government doesn't really intervene in this sort

1137
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 4: of thing.

1138
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 1: Now, I mean, I got that is one of the

1139
00:57:58,160 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 1: tough things when it's like, what do you do about this?

1140
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 1: Because obviously it's not okay to just let it happen,

1141
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 1: But also the government has a terrible track record of

1142
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 1: handling cults. I'm not sure that it's better for everywhere

1143
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: right about these kids? Are you saying sending the FBI

1144
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:17,919
Speaker 1: in to rescue these kids as better? Well, that hasn't

1145
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: always worked in the past. Sometimes they all burn to

1146
00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:22,640
Speaker 1: death in a basement. So I don't know. I don't

1147
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: know how we fix this with the long arm of

1148
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: the law right and honestly, the thing that is ultimately

1149
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: fixing it in the long run, like by some accounts,

1150
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: basically all of the children raised in this cult over

1151
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 1: the last twenty years have left, like the vast, vast majority,

1152
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: like it is dying out according to numerous reports, just

1153
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 1: as a result of how harsh it is. Like ultimately,

1154
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 1: the thing that always ends this kind of shit is

1155
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 1: not the cops, it's not the Feds. It's former members

1156
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,439
Speaker 1: and their support networks and family helping each other get

1157
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: out and move on.

1158
00:58:57,640 --> 00:59:00,320
Speaker 4: Like that's just how it is, which is which is

1159
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 4: absolutely the truth, and and I agree, I mean, it's

1160
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 4: like the government doesn't have a great track record of

1161
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 4: interviewing inn sh no, no, I know that well, but

1162
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:13,240
Speaker 4: it's it's so it's so disheartening because really the truth is,

1163
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 4: if you want to start an abusive cult and gain

1164
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 4: a lot of power and and be sort of horrendously

1165
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,800
Speaker 4: abusive to all the people around you, you can do

1166
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 4: and get away with that for like a generation in

1167
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 4: this country. Yeah, that's it's there's no recourse, there's no

1168
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 4: way around it outside of just like it'll burn out

1169
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 4: events and it's tough.

1170
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: Like obviously, I think there's a lot that could and

1171
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:40,800
Speaker 1: should be done in ri stuff, Like I think it

1172
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 1: would be there's a lot to do about like how

1173
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 1: what like there's probably presumably probably ways to like mandate more.

1174
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, I honestly, legally, I don't know

1175
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 1: how you fix this. Somebody else will have to solve

1176
00:59:56,640 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 1: that for me, or if there is like realistically, can

1177
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 1: you have a society that has religious freedom in the

1178
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: way that we do and doesn't offer people a way

1179
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:13,080
Speaker 1: to basically drop out of society with their kids? Right, Like,

1180
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 1: how do you how do.

1181
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 4: We simultaneously need a society that you do? There isn't

1182
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 4: such a strong and realistic urge to want to drop

1183
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:20,720
Speaker 4: out of as well.

1184
01:00:20,840 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and yeah I anyway life, So as kind

1185
01:00:31,200 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 1: of you get these stories about the later years, you

1186
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: start to hear some more mixed things about Gene, including

1187
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: the fact that like maybe he had stepped away from

1188
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 1: direct control and was just kind of living out his days. Uh,

1189
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: these are kind of mixed. Some former members will be like, no,

1190
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:46,920
Speaker 1: he was like holding on right up until the end.

1191
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 1: I don't know who's right. A lot of the confusion

1192
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: comes from the fact that in two thousand and eight,

1193
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 1: Marcia Spriggs, Jean's wife is caught having cheating on him

1194
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 1: like a bunch, Like she is. She is getting a

1195
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 1: rad own that cult, which I gotta say, trailblazer for women,

1196
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 1: right being the wife of the cult leader cheating on

1197
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 1: him a bunch right now, that's groundbreaking, you know, I love, Yeah,

1198
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 1: we we stand a feminist icon March's Are you getting away?

1199
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 4: I mean, I understand she was caught, but like I will,

1200
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 4: like one time would be hard to get away with.

1201
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 1: Some people will say she was running things right, that

1202
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:29,160
Speaker 1: she was really the power, especially maybe Jeans getting kind

1203
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: of like sick and old.

1204
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:32,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was waiting for you to be like, yeah,

1205
01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 3: but like she's a she's she's the real she's the

1206
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 3: real villain.

1207
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 1: I mean she may be. There's debate about this, like

1208
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 1: different like and honestly, all of the formers they're not

1209
01:01:41,760 --> 01:01:43,680
Speaker 1: they don't tend to be of like high leadership. So

1210
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: I think it's, you know, to get a different perspective.

1211
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 3: If she wasn't the one calling the shots, how the

1212
01:01:49,200 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 3: fuck is she going away with it?

1213
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,760
Speaker 1: Right? Absolutely? No, No, I agree, She's definitely powerful. There's

1214
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 1: no debate about that. It's a question of like, was

1215
01:01:57,240 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 1: she basically doing running it for.

1216
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 2: Jane and aggressively horny?

1217
01:02:03,160 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, apparently so, but a trailblazer nonetheless, So she gets

1218
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 1: caught and this is earthshaking inside the colt One. A

1219
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 1: former member later explained it wasn't that she was human

1220
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: and had fallen into sin. It was that she had

1221
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:18,680
Speaker 1: personally been involved in sending away a lot of other

1222
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 1: families from much less serious infraction. So people are pierced

1223
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 1: and Jeanne this might be some evidence that like she's

1224
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:28,960
Speaker 1: the power behind the throne. Jean makes a big public

1225
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 1: statement about how she's been forgiven for her sins and

1226
01:02:32,560 --> 01:02:34,920
Speaker 1: a lot of folks are unable to accept this, and so.

1227
01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 2: Whole families who forgave her for her sins.

1228
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 1: Oh he didn't and thus did God.

1229
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I was like, how is this mathmthing?

1230
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is the straw that breaks the camel's

1231
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: back for a lot of people. Whole families start to leave,

1232
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 1: and it becomes quickly clear that the tribe is in

1233
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 1: the process of losing. The tribes are losing most of

1234
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: the people who had been born and raised there. Jean

1235
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:02,800
Speaker 1: respond by launching a raft of even more restrictive rules.

1236
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: He bans his followers from eating chocolate, from hiking, from

1237
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 1: going to the beach with their families, and from the

1238
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:14,000
Speaker 1: only music they've been allowed was traditional Irish music. Oh

1239
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 1: but he bans them from this too, so you don't

1240
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 1: get any more fucking h fucking fields of athern rye

1241
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 1: or whatever. I don't know how traditional are getting.

1242
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:27,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, is the rules that they're only allowed to walk

1243
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 3: at a certain pace and definitely Noah.

1244
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:33,520
Speaker 1: Hill only allowed to like work and worship. That's it.

1245
01:03:33,600 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 4: Oh my god, I can't just that impulse is so

1246
01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 4: bad where it's like we're losing everybody cut chocolate.

1247
01:03:40,840 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: We gotta be real pieces of shit. Yeah. I mean again,

1248
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 1: the larger dynamics that play in our culture as the

1249
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 1: Right loses power is like we have to make more

1250
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 1: and more restrictibles. Yeah. Yeah. So there's controversy between a

1251
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,200
Speaker 1: number of formers as to how many of these new

1252
01:03:57,280 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 1: rules our genes will and how much of this is

1253
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 1: Marcia and maybe a council of other elites who are

1254
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 1: ruling in his stead. The next decade in change have

1255
01:04:04,880 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: been described as a total lockdown by one member, and

1256
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 1: the Denver Post reports that some followers claimed Jan himself

1257
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 1: started to express soft frustration with the changes. Quote In

1258
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, the year before Wiseman left the Colt, he

1259
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 1: confessed to Spriggs, who used the name Yonick, that he

1260
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 1: drank beer with his wife against the Colt's rules. He said,

1261
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,160
Speaker 1: just don't talk about it, Wiseman said. The ex member,

1262
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 1: who left in his thirties, said he met one on

1263
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 1: one with Eugene Spriggs as a teenager in the mid

1264
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 1: nineties and told the man about horrific childhood abuse he'd

1265
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,680
Speaker 1: endured in the Twelve Tribes. He said the founder wept

1266
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 1: silently as he shared details of the abuse, but after

1267
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 1: just five minutes, Marcia Spriggs burst into the room and

1268
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 1: sent the member out. She spoke to her husband briefly,

1269
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:45,960
Speaker 1: then cornered the member in the hallway. She comes out

1270
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: and says, if you ever tell Yonick anything like that again,

1271
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:51,240
Speaker 1: I'll send you away that day, like make you leave

1272
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 1: the colt. So years later, that member sneaked out of

1273
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 1: a twelve Tribes commune in the middle of the night

1274
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 1: with a duffel bag of his clothes. He waited in

1275
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 1: the bushes for a write from a man who left

1276
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 1: the colt years before, and that night he slept on

1277
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:07,320
Speaker 1: his friend's floor started his new life outside of the colt.

1278
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:10,160
Speaker 1: And that's what I mean when I talk about what

1279
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: what is the solution to this? Well, the most durable

1280
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:16,360
Speaker 1: one is formers help other people get out, right, That's

1281
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 1: what happens in this case. He makes contact with somebody

1282
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: who's already made it out. That guy takes him to

1283
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 1: let him crash in a friend's place. Like these are

1284
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:26,439
Speaker 1: the support networks that dismantle these cults. You know, it's

1285
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 1: maybe not as satisfying as imagining the Feds rushing in

1286
01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 1: and freeing everybody, but like that doesn't happen. It just

1287
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 1: doesn't realistically happen. You know, this is what actually happens.

1288
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 1: Eugene Spriggs dies on January eleventh, two thousand, or January eleventh,

1289
01:05:43,200 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. He was eighty three years old. According

1290
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 1: to a death certificate issued by the state of he

1291
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 1: lived way too long based on his skill. Yeah, there's

1292
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,000
Speaker 1: a lot. He's like, it's respiratory arrests that gets him.

1293
01:05:57,000 --> 01:06:00,600
Speaker 1: Based on like the exact list of contributing causes to

1294
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 1: his death, Yeah, they think it's it's probably COVID. He

1295
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 1: probably gets COVID. Oh so, oh my god.

1296
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:08,400
Speaker 4: I remember there was like a there was like a

1297
01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 4: race car driver from the town I grew up in

1298
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 4: who was like real against all of it, you know,

1299
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:15,600
Speaker 4: who was like really against lockdowns and stuff. And he

1300
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 4: got that like convenient pneumonia in yeah, the middle of

1301
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 4: two thousand. It's like a lot of people just got

1302
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 4: sneaky pneumonia. Yeah, that's what it sounds like here.

1303
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:26,439
Speaker 1: Yep, yep, I think that is the case. So there

1304
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 1: you go. At present, the Twelve tribes continue to hold

1305
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 1: tens of millions of dollars in real estate and operate

1306
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: multiple businesses. It is unclear how many members remain, although

1307
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 1: the Denver Posts suggests most of the youth have already left.

1308
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: More of the quotes that claimed Gene as something other

1309
01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 1: than a total dictatorial cult leader have come more recently,

1310
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 1: and part of me suspects they may be encouraged by

1311
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:50,160
Speaker 1: some extent by the remaining leadership, who seem to want

1312
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:52,600
Speaker 1: people to feel as if Gene himself is not the

1313
01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 1: center of things. The truth of this will become clearer

1314
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 1: in time, especially as more scrutiny is dedicated to the group.

1315
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:01,600
Speaker 1: For now, I want to by finishing that story from

1316
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:03,960
Speaker 1: the ex member. The Denver Post interviewed, who left in

1317
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 1: his thirties after enduring terrible childhood abuse within the colt.

1318
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 1: After spending the first free night of his life on

1319
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 1: his friend's floor. Quote in the morning he woke up,

1320
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:14,760
Speaker 1: he drank a cup of coffee forbidden in the colt

1321
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 1: and realized he was, for the first time in his life,

1322
01:07:17,520 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: completely in charge of his own choices. I felt like

1323
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:23,280
Speaker 1: I could float away, he said that feeling. It's impossible

1324
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,320
Speaker 1: to describe that feeling of freedom, and honestly, I feel

1325
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 1: that on some level every day.

1326
01:07:28,640 --> 01:07:32,440
Speaker 4: Hmm man. Anyway, he must taste so good.

1327
01:07:32,680 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 1: Oh my god, can you imagine that first cup of

1328
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 1: coffee out of the colt.

1329
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 4: That's a banger right there, holding a hand, eating a

1330
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 4: piece of chocolate, drinking some coffee.

1331
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:48,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, listening to all the Irish music you want, you

1332
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 1: take this fife and shove it up your ass. Yeah,

1333
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 1: I've got an Irish Rover's record on repeat. Just listening

1334
01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 1: to the fucking Unicorn song for days.

1335
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 4: Oh my god, man, that's wild. That is that was

1336
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 4: a journey.

1337
01:08:05,480 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, good cult, pretty good cult. I gotta say, Yeah.

1338
01:08:10,200 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 4: I'm powerful. I haven't heard and I've heard not one thing.

1339
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:16,679
Speaker 4: Even though they started they they did start the fire.

1340
01:08:17,560 --> 01:08:19,200
Speaker 1: They did start this that fire.

1341
01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1342
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:22,360
Speaker 1: I think there's still an agree to which that may

1343
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 1: still be being investigated, but at present, the states like

1344
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 1: we're not pursuing charges because like authorities signed off on

1345
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 1: the burn.

1346
01:08:29,600 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 3: Anyway, whatever, I do feel like they hit a lot

1347
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 3: of the like the pillars of being like, well that's no,

1348
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:39,400
Speaker 3: that's a motherfucking cult. You're like, oh yeah, oh yeah,

1349
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:42,679
Speaker 3: blames Jesus child aboose fire.

1350
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:45,000
Speaker 1: Yeah it's there.

1351
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 2: It's just h yeah, terrible, Yeah.

1352
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:52,520
Speaker 4: Out of money, tied up and tied up in investments.

1353
01:08:52,680 --> 01:08:54,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, sketchy businesses.

1354
01:08:55,520 --> 01:09:00,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, yeah, but uh see it?

1355
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 2: What's not as terrible as you? Alex? Do you have

1356
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 2: any Hell yeah, you'd like to plug here?

1357
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 4: I would love for people to listen to you are

1358
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:11,519
Speaker 4: good at Feelings podcast about movies where we talk about

1359
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:14,320
Speaker 4: feelings and therapy related stuff by talking about movies.

1360
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, hell yeah absolutely. Anyway. I have a novel.

1361
01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:23,599
Speaker 1: It's called After the Revolution. Buy it wherever books are sold,

1362
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:27,080
Speaker 1: or read it for free at atrbook dot com. It's

1363
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:29,920
Speaker 1: all free. You don't have to buy it, but you can.

1364
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 1: You can also go to Hell I Love You.

1365
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,640
Speaker 2: We also have a series I'd like to plug that is.

1366
01:09:38,120 --> 01:09:41,160
Speaker 3: Out now and depending on this when this drops, it

1367
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:43,640
Speaker 3: could be recently out or a couple weeks out that

1368
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 3: Garrison Davis did on it could happen here, falling up

1369
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:48,160
Speaker 3: on the stop coop city movement in Atlanta.

1370
01:09:49,120 --> 01:09:49,879
Speaker 2: Check that out.

1371
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 1: Excellent, Yeah, and again go to Hell.

1372
01:09:56,320 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1373
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:02,000
Speaker 3: For more from fool Zone Media, visit our website fool

1374
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 3: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1375
01:10:06,120 --> 01:10:11,320
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. H