1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720
Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

2
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,119
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

3
00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,200
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

4
00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,920
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.

5
00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,479
Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my

6
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:27,320
Speaker 2: name is Noel.

7
00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:28,800
Speaker 3: They call me Ben.

8
00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:32,280
Speaker 4: We're joined as always with our super producer called Mission

9
00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:37,640
Speaker 4: Controlled Decant. Most importantly, you are here, and that makes

10
00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:43,120
Speaker 4: this the stuff they don't want you to know look

11
00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:48,080
Speaker 4: like anybody else. Noel, Matt Paul, and Doc hall Day

12
00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:50,720
Speaker 4: and I have been watching the news here in the

13
00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 4: United States and we know the same old cycle has

14
00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 4: come round once again in states across the nation. In

15
00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:03,040
Speaker 4: recent years, groups are calling to ban certain books. You

16
00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:05,520
Speaker 4: guys have obviously we've all heard about this.

17
00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:10,240
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's definitely a political thing happening right now. Man.

18
00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:15,000
Speaker 3: It sure is very divisive, seems to be a bit

19
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,480
Speaker 3: of a tool to further certain political ideologies and rhetoric,

20
00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,039
Speaker 3: And honestly, it just seems kind of like an alarmist

21
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:23,959
Speaker 3: sort of propaganda kind of move.

22
00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's you raise an interesting point, because there

23
00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:33,600
Speaker 4: is currently no book that everyone in the US agrees

24
00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:38,839
Speaker 4: should be banned. People have people have these divisive opinions,

25
00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,800
Speaker 4: and we could argue here that at the heart of

26
00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,800
Speaker 4: the issue there's a dueling set of conspiracies. We're going

27
00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:48,800
Speaker 4: to talk about these perspectives. We'll tackle one of the

28
00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:54,040
Speaker 4: biggest questions, Should any books, should any knowledge be banned?

29
00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:55,880
Speaker 4: Here are the facts?

30
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,200
Speaker 2: This is a question we've a lot of times when

31
00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:05,360
Speaker 2: it comes to human experimentation, right, like should the knowledge

32
00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:11,080
Speaker 2: gain from that kind of brutality actually be shared and

33
00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,799
Speaker 2: known or should it just go away? Right? And it's

34
00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:19,359
Speaker 2: the same deal, I guess we're tackling here. And when

35
00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,119
Speaker 2: we're talking about knowledge, we're talking about right, active knowledge

36
00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:26,519
Speaker 2: that you could get that you could gain from reading

37
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,760
Speaker 2: a book like to you know, show you how to

38
00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:33,639
Speaker 2: do something, or even a novel something that's fictional that

39
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,919
Speaker 2: could potentially create some dangerous ideas within the reader.

40
00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:44,119
Speaker 4: They could be weaponized. Yeah, and it's weird because, oh,

41
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:49,120
Speaker 4: classic human the idea of banning books is as old

42
00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:53,000
Speaker 4: as the technology of books themselves. It's honestly older. Right,

43
00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,079
Speaker 4: everybody knows knowledge is a kind of power. So it's

44
00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:00,160
Speaker 4: no surprise that over the span of human history, certain forces,

45
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,680
Speaker 4: whether they're states or kingdoms or religions. They sought to

46
00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,079
Speaker 4: control knowledge, and the easiest way to control knowledge, of course,

47
00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:10,959
Speaker 4: is to control education. Like old dirty Bastard said, Wu

48
00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:12,120
Speaker 4: tang is for the children.

49
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,200
Speaker 3: It's true. I love the idea. By the way, Benet,

50
00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,079
Speaker 3: thinking of books as technology something that we really take

51
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,320
Speaker 3: for granted. But it's probably the most basic and powerful

52
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,640
Speaker 3: of technology, right.

53
00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,160
Speaker 4: It's it's it's one of the greatest hits. You know,

54
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:32,840
Speaker 4: we talk about reading often on this show in terms

55
00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,880
Speaker 4: of just the brilliance of it. It's kind of spooky

56
00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,800
Speaker 4: to be able to read. It's sort of time travel.

57
00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,840
Speaker 4: It's sort of necromancy. You're communicating in some way with

58
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:51,440
Speaker 4: the dead, and that's inspiring. That's creepy. That's many, many,

59
00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:56,080
Speaker 4: many other things. The modern debate over banning books, what's

60
00:03:56,120 --> 00:04:00,880
Speaker 4: interesting is is usually framed as a protective measure for

61
00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,280
Speaker 4: the public in the current day. But back in the

62
00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:09,160
Speaker 4: day other power structures would say, we need to protect

63
00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,440
Speaker 4: the knowledge of the elite from the unwashed masses, right,

64
00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,920
Speaker 4: And you see it in US history as well, when

65
00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:23,440
Speaker 4: enslaved people were were punished for the crime of literacy

66
00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,880
Speaker 4: just for being able to read. I don't know's it's

67
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,800
Speaker 4: a weird. It's a weird switch. I guess the rationale.

68
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:33,960
Speaker 4: But this stuff has been going on for a long

69
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,599
Speaker 4: long time. We got together and we looked up the

70
00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:42,839
Speaker 4: first thing considered to be a book ever and generally

71
00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,599
Speaker 4: right now, the first thing considered to be a quote

72
00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,800
Speaker 4: unquote book is the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is kind

73
00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:51,200
Speaker 4: of old.

74
00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, not to be confused with the Epic of Gargamel

75
00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:59,240
Speaker 3: aka the Smurfs. Yeah. Sorry, I had to had to

76
00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:00,280
Speaker 3: go there and again.

77
00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:05,240
Speaker 2: And that goes back to twenty one hundred BCE, and

78
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,000
Speaker 2: it was banned in I think it was like the

79
00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,039
Speaker 2: year after it came out, right now, I'm just joking.

80
00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:14,120
Speaker 4: It was not banned, It wasn't, but it was. You know,

81
00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,920
Speaker 4: the history of books is like the history of other

82
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:25,120
Speaker 4: old technology. It's almost impossible to figure out who decided

83
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,520
Speaker 4: to make the wheel or who said, hey, we can

84
00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,080
Speaker 4: use this fire thing for all sorts of stuff.

85
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,200
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, y'all, y'all, wait until you hear our episode

86
00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,080
Speaker 2: on banned scrolls. And then we've got a third part

87
00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,000
Speaker 2: that's banned tablets. Those are going to be doozies.

88
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 4: And then we've got a fourth part that is banned

89
00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:45,719
Speaker 4: from US.

90
00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and banned cave paintings.

91
00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,599
Speaker 4: The whole caves are banned completely from history. I mean,

92
00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,359
Speaker 4: we do know that this practice of restricting information is

93
00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:04,320
Speaker 4: so old that it is impossible to name the very

94
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,560
Speaker 4: first banned book or scroll or cave painting or what

95
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:14,280
Speaker 4: have you in history. But these debates, these controversies did

96
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:19,839
Speaker 4: lead to widespread violence. You think stuff is bad on Twitter, now, folks.

97
00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,240
Speaker 4: Entire libraries were set aflame, of course, most popular being

98
00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,400
Speaker 4: the Library of Alexandria. But collections were destroyed or burned

99
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,960
Speaker 4: in China and Middle East, North Africa, Europe, you name it.

100
00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,880
Speaker 4: And this was interesting. I didn't know this one. The

101
00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,960
Speaker 4: first book banning in what we call the modern day

102
00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,119
Speaker 4: US pre dates the concept of the United States.

103
00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,520
Speaker 2: Oh snap, yeah, it goes back to Salem witch Trial era.

104
00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:57,600
Speaker 2: It goes back even further to sixteen thirty seven. My goodness. Wait,

105
00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,320
Speaker 2: was there a power structure that wanted to control role

106
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,320
Speaker 2: thought and knowledge at the time or something.

107
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:10,480
Speaker 3: Some sort of elitist organization seeking to control hearts and

108
00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:12,720
Speaker 3: minds and set the tone of civilization.

109
00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,000
Speaker 4: Ah, geez, guys, I don't know. That sounds a bit puritanical.

110
00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:23,800
Speaker 2: Landed. It doesn't need Yeah. So yeah. This book is

111
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,600
Speaker 2: by a writer, an author named Thomas Morton, and you

112
00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,920
Speaker 2: may have heard of in the past. I know. He's

113
00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:36,040
Speaker 2: actually pretty popular for his let's say different takes on

114
00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:41,800
Speaker 2: some major religions within the early budding let's say United States,

115
00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,480
Speaker 2: post Church of England, not post Church of England. Let's

116
00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,480
Speaker 2: say breakaway from Church of England. Breakaway so far that

117
00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,480
Speaker 2: they went all the way across an ocean.

118
00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

119
00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:52,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

120
00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 4: His book New English Caiden was banned by the Puritan

121
00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:02,040
Speaker 4: government of the area in modern day Massachusetts, Quincy, Massachusetts,

122
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:08,560
Speaker 4: because they didn't like his take on Puritan customs and

123
00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:13,880
Speaker 4: power structures. He was opposing the official narrative, which is,

124
00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,200
Speaker 4: of course the ideology that pushed them across the Atlantic

125
00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,600
Speaker 4: in the first place. Everyone is wrong, we are correct.

126
00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 4: We are not taking questions at this time.

127
00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:27,160
Speaker 2: I love that.

128
00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,160
Speaker 4: I mean, that's the vibe, right.

129
00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:32,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

130
00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 2: Well, I was trying to find a copy of it,

131
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,360
Speaker 2: and it looks like you may be able to find

132
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,959
Speaker 2: excerpts or maybe like I couldn't. I couldn't find a

133
00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,240
Speaker 2: physical copy of it anywhere. Obviously. It was banned in

134
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:49,120
Speaker 2: the mid sixteen hundreds so probably difficult to come by, right,

135
00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:53,120
Speaker 2: But I do wonder if at a place, like I

136
00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:58,200
Speaker 2: don't know, somewhere out in Massachusetts, there's an old library

137
00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:00,280
Speaker 2: that has one in the basement, you know, like s

138
00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:05,559
Speaker 2: Haved Yeah, one of those towns. I can't remember the

139
00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:10,440
Speaker 2: name of the town right now, Peabody maybe of the

140
00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,720
Speaker 2: place that is actually where Salem and where the witch

141
00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,000
Speaker 2: trials occurred, but it's like right outside of what is

142
00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,640
Speaker 2: called Salem today. But I know there's an old library

143
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,000
Speaker 2: there and they had some incredible books from the sixteen hundreds.

144
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:24,840
Speaker 2: I wonder if they've gone one.

145
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,520
Speaker 3: Well, this whole Puritan model kind of makes me think.

146
00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I know this is maybe outside the scope

147
00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:35,280
Speaker 3: of today's conversation, but if there were like grimoires for example,

148
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,320
Speaker 3: or like books that were known, I mean, we can

149
00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,880
Speaker 3: have all this lore and you know pop culture stuff

150
00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,960
Speaker 3: around hidden books, like the you know, the Necronomicon being

151
00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:48,360
Speaker 3: locked away because it unleashes you know, untold evil upon

152
00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,640
Speaker 3: the world. I think that's an interesting metaphor, you know,

153
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,720
Speaker 3: for what knowledge can do, for what information can do

154
00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,760
Speaker 3: with or without black magic.

155
00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:05,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, and this practice of banning books, it was much

156
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,000
Speaker 4: easier back in those days, to your point, Matt, there

157
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:14,080
Speaker 4: were no PDFs, you know, there was no pastebin, et cetera.

158
00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:19,880
Speaker 4: So you could literally go to whomever was writing the

159
00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,200
Speaker 4: book by hand, or to you know, the one guy

160
00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,160
Speaker 4: in a one hundred mile area who owned a printing

161
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,520
Speaker 4: press and smack him around Sopranos style and say not

162
00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,160
Speaker 4: this book. Okay, not this book. You keep to the

163
00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,480
Speaker 4: version of the Bible that we greenlt. They wouldn't say

164
00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,000
Speaker 4: green lit because they didn't have traffic lights. But you

165
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,080
Speaker 4: know what we mean. Let's fast forward to the modern

166
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,720
Speaker 4: day and maybe we talk about the conspiracies that are

167
00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:51,960
Speaker 4: driving the argument here about banning books, Like I think

168
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,280
Speaker 4: one of the first things we should say is proponents

169
00:10:55,320 --> 00:11:01,479
Speaker 4: of banning books in public libraries, they don't see themselves

170
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:06,280
Speaker 4: as villains. They're not saying, aha, will cheat people from

171
00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,160
Speaker 4: learning algebra or whatever.

172
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,640
Speaker 3: I mean. I guess we've talked about how formative libraries

173
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,240
Speaker 3: were for us growing up, and I think maybe maybe

174
00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,240
Speaker 3: it was a different time because I just remember having

175
00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:22,040
Speaker 3: access to all kinds of inappropriate material at my local library.

176
00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,800
Speaker 3: You know, my parents finally drew the line at the

177
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,520
Speaker 3: electric kool Aid acid test by Ken Kesey, which I

178
00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 3: remember when they saw their like, nope, you can't read that,

179
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:33,640
Speaker 3: but they didn't care that I read Dean Koontz and

180
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,840
Speaker 3: Stephen King and all this like murder, you know, psychotic,

181
00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:39,960
Speaker 3: you know, devil worship book. But a little bit of

182
00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:45,080
Speaker 3: counterculture hippidum you know about LSD was a bridge too far.

183
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, parents is a government, right, That's part of it.

184
00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,480
Speaker 4: The idea that the parents as the governing structure of

185
00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,920
Speaker 4: the home should be able to decree what is and

186
00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,840
Speaker 4: is not appropriate. And I'm with you there. In old

187
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:05,120
Speaker 4: I remember being baffled that I could read Stephen King's

188
00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:09,000
Speaker 4: It at such a young age with no problems, but

189
00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 4: then also be able to read things like Beyond a

190
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,640
Speaker 4: Pale Horse or Behold a Pale Horse, whatever that was.

191
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,520
Speaker 3: And to your point about parents as government, now you've

192
00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,679
Speaker 3: got you know, things called parental locks, you know, on

193
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,280
Speaker 3: your Netflix accounts or whatever. So it's a whole lot

194
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,080
Speaker 3: easier to enforce that kind of stuff because frankly, kids

195
00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:33,240
Speaker 3: aren't reading books or everything's digital, you know, and so

196
00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,480
Speaker 3: when you have the keys to that digital kingdom, you

197
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,160
Speaker 3: kind of are, you know, the the arbiter of information.

198
00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:45,679
Speaker 2: It's really interesting, guys. I'm thinking about public speeches that

199
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,520
Speaker 2: have been made in the past that could also, you know,

200
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,720
Speaker 2: fit into this little test that we're talking about here.

201
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:56,480
Speaker 2: Could there be are there dangerous public speeches where we

202
00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,000
Speaker 2: should like those should somehow be banned in the same

203
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,320
Speaker 2: way I'm thinking about like Hrap Brown or you know,

204
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,080
Speaker 2: some of the like other leaders of SNICK or some

205
00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,000
Speaker 2: of these other like groups that could have been considered

206
00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:09,560
Speaker 2: super dangerous at the time.

207
00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,920
Speaker 4: Or literary Peltier right with aim or something like that.

208
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,320
Speaker 3: I guess I typically associate speeches with inciting and action

209
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,040
Speaker 3: in the moment, you know, Like people say that, you know,

210
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,800
Speaker 3: the speech that Donald Trump made and on January sixth

211
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:27,720
Speaker 3: literally led to the insurrection, but separated from that event

212
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:29,840
Speaker 3: that might not have as much of an impact. But

213
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,360
Speaker 3: to your point, people are really out there spewing ideology,

214
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:35,960
Speaker 3: you know, and that are really laying things out there

215
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,160
Speaker 3: that could be harnessed, you know. I I could see

216
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:39,960
Speaker 3: that definitely.

217
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:45,720
Speaker 4: And as we record today, multiple state level governments have

218
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:51,040
Speaker 4: enacted bands on school libraries as well as public libraries,

219
00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:56,120
Speaker 4: meaning that with the surface rationale being we must protect

220
00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,520
Speaker 4: the children, the most vulnerable part of the population. They

221
00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:05,240
Speaker 4: are all so removing access to information from adults who

222
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,200
Speaker 4: may not have kids, who may not interact with anyone

223
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,400
Speaker 4: hunder thirty. You know what I mean. We don't know,

224
00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 4: they don't see themselves though, as keeping information from an

225
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:22,760
Speaker 4: unworthy public. The conspiracy that you will see is this

226
00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:28,760
Speaker 4: idea arguing that we are fighting back against some sort

227
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:33,080
Speaker 4: of insidious often phrased as liberal agenda, and they feel

228
00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,200
Speaker 4: there is a conspiracy afoot to twist the minds of

229
00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 4: children through propaganda, and from their point of view, certain

230
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:47,239
Speaker 4: books might push kids toward unhealthy viewpoints, decisions, or behaviors

231
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,400
Speaker 4: because kids are impressionable. That part is true. That last

232
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:53,400
Speaker 4: part is true.

233
00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:54,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, And.

234
00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,040
Speaker 2: I'm just unaware of this, guys. I'm unaware of any

235
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:04,680
Speaker 2: books that were banned within the US for promoting communism,

236
00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,640
Speaker 2: like during the Cold War times. I'm sure there's something,

237
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,400
Speaker 2: but like I'm you know, I imagine that that would be something, right,

238
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,280
Speaker 2: this communist agenda that we have to fight back again.

239
00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,320
Speaker 3: Sure think that given the uh, all of the hearings

240
00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,520
Speaker 3: and you know, the people who are blacklisted and all

241
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,360
Speaker 3: of that in Hollywood, you know, for espousing communist viewpoints,

242
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,400
Speaker 3: for being a member or whatever. You would think that

243
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,480
Speaker 3: there would have been more kind of like comics code

244
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,120
Speaker 3: kind of stuff where things were literally like taken out

245
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,960
Speaker 3: of circulation or like you know, polled. That's I don't

246
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,080
Speaker 3: have an answer to that. That's very interesting thing to

247
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:39,640
Speaker 3: think about though.

248
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:44,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's weird because so there's the Comstock Law or

249
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,160
Speaker 4: the Federal Anti Obscenity Act that banned a lot of

250
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,480
Speaker 4: stuff like the Canterbury Tales or the de Cameron. But

251
00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 4: in terms of in terms of being banned for propagating

252
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:05,360
Speaker 4: propagating communist ideology, maybe the answer is something like you

253
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 4: would Okay, this is absolutely true. This is a true conspiracy.

254
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:16,800
Speaker 4: The federal government, especially before the advent of the Internet,

255
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:22,920
Speaker 4: secretly did track people's library records. So maybe it's a

256
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:28,480
Speaker 4: situation where if you are reading certain books or checking out,

257
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,840
Speaker 4: you know, too much Caral Marx from your local library,

258
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,200
Speaker 4: you might get flagged as a person of interest, you

259
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:36,920
Speaker 4: know what I mean, And.

260
00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,400
Speaker 3: You might never know it. It just means that you're

261
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,720
Speaker 3: on somebody's radar and then if you ever were to

262
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 3: do something sus then they've gotten you know, info on

263
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,400
Speaker 3: you or keeping tabs to some degree, I guess I

264
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,760
Speaker 3: guess the reason may be Matt for the whole like

265
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:56,040
Speaker 3: why haven't they banned certain books or you know about communists.

266
00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,960
Speaker 3: America really doesn't like to ban books because it's sort

267
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,560
Speaker 3: of part of the constitution that we can have freedom

268
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,600
Speaker 3: of speech. And what you know is the pinnacle of

269
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:08,280
Speaker 3: freedom of speech if not being able to write whatever

270
00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,880
Speaker 3: you want in a book without fear of like censorship. Yeah,

271
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,080
Speaker 3: I don't know, I'm sorry, I mean, do you realize

272
00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,760
Speaker 3: I just like, I think the idea of banning books

273
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,879
Speaker 3: in America is certainly it's not something that we take lightly,

274
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:24,520
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. It's not like it happens

275
00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:25,119
Speaker 3: all the time.

276
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,760
Speaker 2: You know, well, we've certainly tried it a lot of

277
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,840
Speaker 2: times again and in the same context right specifically as

278
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,200
Speaker 2: you're saying, in public school, public schools, public libraries.

279
00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:40,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the concerns that get the most airtime today

280
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:46,720
Speaker 4: are tending to revolve around things like gender or racial identity,

281
00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 4: or they're tending to revolve around how people would like

282
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,840
Speaker 4: history depicted or recounted, you know what I mean. And

283
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,359
Speaker 4: this this is very potent, powerful stuff. I mean, Okay,

284
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,400
Speaker 4: on the other side of the equation, the groups that

285
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:12,960
Speaker 4: fight against banning books. They also don't see themselves as villains.

286
00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,879
Speaker 4: They see themselves as protectors. They think their perspective is,

287
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,800
Speaker 4: we are protecting history from being rewritten. We are protecting

288
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,840
Speaker 4: the rights of vulnerable populations, and we're allowing them to

289
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:33,439
Speaker 4: be addressed, to be acknowledged, and to be represented in literature.

290
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,280
Speaker 4: And you know, honestly, look, while a lot of the

291
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,400
Speaker 4: banning is coming from more conservative actors in the political sphere,

292
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,920
Speaker 4: the political left has moved to banned books as well,

293
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:53,480
Speaker 4: often most often for objectionable phrasing, for using racial epithets,

294
00:18:53,680 --> 00:19:00,280
Speaker 4: for perpetuating just bonkers stereotypes and stuff like that. There's

295
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 4: an example, the Absolutely True Diary of a Part Time Indian,

296
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:12,200
Speaker 4: written by an author named Sherman Alexi. There were what

297
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 4: you could call politically left movements to ban that book

298
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:20,600
Speaker 4: from some schools because there were concerns about offensive, racially

299
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,360
Speaker 4: charged language. And you can you can read a lot

300
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,879
Speaker 4: about this book. Because it generated a lot of controversy,

301
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,199
Speaker 4: multiple different municipalities have tried to pull this book from

302
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:32,719
Speaker 4: the shelves.

303
00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd like same with like Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn.

304
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,119
Speaker 3: You know, some of the debates around that because of

305
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,080
Speaker 3: its you know, problematic language and use of racial splores.

306
00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 3: But also it is a work of fiction, that is

307
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,200
Speaker 3: that was written in a specific time around a certain

308
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 3: time period, so it starts to be a little bit

309
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,439
Speaker 3: more about like is are we censoring history? Like are

310
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 3: we editing history? And then you know, it's like a

311
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 3: lot of the movement to change the language enrolled all books.

312
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,640
Speaker 3: I find a little bit odd, you know. I mean,

313
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,119
Speaker 3: I just think when you start revising things to that degree, uh,

314
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 3: you start George lucasing everything you know and sanitizing it,

315
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,199
Speaker 3: just you don't have any history left. I mean, I

316
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,159
Speaker 3: think we can learn from problematic things in history, but

317
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,119
Speaker 3: to completely erase it seems really shortsighted to me.

318
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,280
Speaker 2: Are you guys aware of the Captain Underpants graphic novel serieses?

319
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 3: Yes?

320
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,920
Speaker 2: Ben, are you actually if you don't have a kid,

321
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 2: you may not know.

322
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:36,000
Speaker 4: I'm aware of it. Okay, I know about it.

323
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,800
Speaker 2: I didn't know that there were attempts to ban that

324
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 2: series because the characters are quote disrespectful to authority figures,

325
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,879
Speaker 2: which is really interesting if we're talking about control and

326
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,080
Speaker 2: then having those you know, books in a school or

327
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,679
Speaker 2: promoted by the school by having them made available just

328
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:59,159
Speaker 2: to undermine your staff. I mean, that's a that's a

329
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 2: really interesting concept to me.

330
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 4: Too much fight the power. They don't want that kind

331
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,639
Speaker 4: of superhero. What they want a batman. They want an

332
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 4: authoritarian billionaire as a protagonist.

333
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 2: But it's an inside job because I think in that story,

334
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 2: if I'm not wrong, the superhero Captain Underpants is actually

335
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:21,119
Speaker 2: one of the main administrators of the school. So the

336
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,440
Speaker 2: kind of I don't know, the figure, the figure that's

337
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 2: looked up to is a like an anti hero version

338
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:30,960
Speaker 2: of an administrator.

339
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 3: So Captain Underpants as a child.

340
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's one. It's

341
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,359
Speaker 2: one of the teachers, mister yeah, there you go. Or

342
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 2: is it the principal? I can't remember it off somebody

343
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 2: correct us, but it's a it's one of the primary administrators.

344
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,679
Speaker 4: So this is the thing, right that's that may seem

345
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 4: like a h A weird reason to ban a book

346
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,439
Speaker 4: or to ban a work of literature, but we have

347
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 4: to realize that on any side of the ideological sphere,

348
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 4: there are people who feel they have good reason to

349
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 4: ban insert literature or insert book here, and the issue

350
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,919
Speaker 4: is not as cut and dried as it appears in

351
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 4: the news sometimes you know, because remember mainstream news typically

352
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 4: has about four to seven minutes to tell you a

353
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:31,679
Speaker 4: thing and often doesn't hesitate to also imply how you

354
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 4: should feel about that thing. But look, either way, it

355
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 4: doesn't matter. Book bans. Inarguably, they're on the rise. I

356
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 4: check out some work by the American Library Association. They

357
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,879
Speaker 4: note book attempts to ban books are accelerating across the

358
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 4: US at a rate that is unprecedented. About twenty years ago,

359
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 4: the ALA started saying, let's keep track of all these

360
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 4: people trying to ban books. Let's just see what happens.

361
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 4: And the rate is expanding exponentially. But in tonight's episode,

362
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 4: we're asking a question we already acknowledge. Yes, people are

363
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 4: trying to ban books. They are succeeded. Yes, people on

364
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 4: both sides of the debate often accuse the other side

365
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 4: of a conspiracy of some sort. But the big question

366
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 4: is should any books be banned? Will pause for a

367
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 4: word from our sponsor and we'll.

368
00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 3: Be right back.

369
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 4: Here's where it gets crazy.

370
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 2: Just before it gets crazy, guys, I just want to

371
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 2: bring something up to your point, Ben, talking about news

372
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 2: kind of having to or attempting to distill stuff down

373
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,360
Speaker 2: right into those quick sound bites. Did you guys see

374
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 2: a headline come across your phones or at some point

375
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: or computers in the past couple of weeks. I think

376
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 2: it was this week that said three severed heads left

377
00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,959
Speaker 2: at employees desk in retaliation for something. It's that's what

378
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: it said. That's like the whole the whole headline was

379
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 2: three severed heads left at desk after complaints basically.

380
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 3: That one didn't hit my uh my inbox.

381
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 2: They're human heads left end disimployees desk. What you find

382
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 2: if you click on any of the links and take

383
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: that bait, it's that it's a person who worked at

384
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 2: a place that dealt with donor bodies, right, So it's

385
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 2: not as though it makes it just leaving out all

386
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 2: that information makes it feel like there's just somebody decapitated

387
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 2: a couple of fellas and then left them on the you.

388
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 4: Know, instead of like finding three heads from storage insane.

389
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 4: Here you go, I hate you.

390
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: Derek, Yeah, I just murdered three people chuck from stuff.

391
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 3: You should know. Once terrorized me by leaving severed parrots

392
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,480
Speaker 3: like these squishy like like stress ball parrots that we

393
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 3: got from iHeart Radio and everyone had. There were dozens

394
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 3: of them around the office. He like chopped their heads

395
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 3: off and stabbed them with pencils and didn't tell me

396
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 3: that it was him, and I just felt like I

397
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 3: was being menaced by some unseen stalker and finally figured

398
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 3: it out. But yeah, again, I could just said, you know,

399
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,679
Speaker 3: severed parrot heads found on employee's desk without mentioning that

400
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 3: they were styrofoam.

401
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 2: Dude, Wow, you were being messed with. But the only

402
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: reason I bring that up is just to land that

403
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: concept as hard as we possibly can here before we

404
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 2: keep going that news outlets. When you're reading about these stories,

405
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 2: they need your attention so badly, they're so desperate for

406
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 2: you to click on their thing, that it's going to

407
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 2: be It's going to be sensationalized, no matter anybody's intentions,

408
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 2: because it kind of has to be now to compete Neil.

409
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 4: You can also tell if you want to be a

410
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 4: critical reader of things involving affairs of the state. One

411
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 4: way you can always tell, and mentioned this in a

412
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 4: previous episode is through the use of verbs. The verbiage

413
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 4: will tell you when something is meant to be slanted

414
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 4: asinion piece. What do we mean by verbiage, It'll be

415
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 4: something like so and so blast or so and so

416
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 4: excoriates excoriates might be a little too face.

417
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 2: To literate slams.

418
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 3: Recently, with this whole cop city debate in Atlanta that

419
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 3: I think most people, even not in Atlanta are aware of,

420
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 3: there was public comment period or a couple and the

421
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 3: initial headline on the Atlanta Journal Constitution was protesters swarm

422
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 3: state Capital and the writer got a lot of flak

423
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 3: for it because the idea of swarm implies some sort

424
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 3: of invasion, like a negative invasive force of chaos and disorder.

425
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 3: And then they changes something like, you know, thousands turn

426
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,479
Speaker 3: up for public comment, you know, but like the initial

427
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 3: one was going for exactly Well, I know we're taking

428
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 3: a little sidebar here, but I think this is very

429
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 3: important and a really good point. But language is powerful

430
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 3: and and a lot of these stories around language and

431
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 3: how to control it are very slanted.

432
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, And the shout out to everybody who went to

433
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 4: the public debate or the public hearing regarding this was

434
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 4: one of the longest in Atlanta's history. It went on

435
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 4: till at least five point thirty in the morning, and

436
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 4: despite near unanimous disapproval from the actual people of Atlanta,

437
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 4: the cop City movement is going forward. We are of

438
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 4: course going to an episode on this. In the meantime,

439
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 4: do check out the work of the work of gare

440
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 4: Over on it could happen here, just this fantastic reporting.

441
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 4: And that's how a cool Zone Media head of Bierpow,

442
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 4: Robert Evans, here's the thing. Let's frame the debate for ourselves.

443
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 4: This is our Here is where it gets crazy.

444
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 3: Part.

445
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 4: We'll take a page from the mainstream news and we'll

446
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 4: focus on the children. Whenever you want to get some

447
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 4: government control into a political discourse, phrase it as protecting

448
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 4: the children. Right, We at the United Kingdom, we don't

449
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,200
Speaker 4: want to attract your every movement on the Internet as

450
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 4: some sort of or well and control device. We're here

451
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 4: to keep kids safe.

452
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 3: And if you if you.

453
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 4: Don't agree with our new surveillance rules for the Internet,

454
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 4: then you basically hate kids and you want them to

455
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 4: be hurt. That's who you are. That's like, that's a

456
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 4: very tricky thing, right, and people don't want to hurt children.

457
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 4: I would hope the majority of folks can agree with that.

458
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 4: So if you want to pass something that ordinarily folks

459
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 4: would never agree to, you phrase it as protecting vulnerable

460
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 4: parts of the population. So the big question is should

461
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 4: books be banned from children's libraries? If we pro and

462
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 4: con it, I think it's reasonable to say, if you

463
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 4: are a parent, you should have the right to decide

464
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 4: what your kid can read and when what is age appropriate?

465
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, absolutely speak up for standards

466
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 3: as a group seeking age appropriate reading materials to be

467
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 3: supplied to students in Dallas, Texas schools, and they had

468
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 3: this to say about that exact concept. Literary works containing

469
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 3: explicit scenes as well as vulgar and obscene language were

470
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 3: on the approved reading list for grades seven through twelve,

471
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 3: meaning that middle and grade school students might be exposed

472
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 3: to inappropriate materials. Yeah, this is you know, these kinds

473
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 3: of organizations. I suppose they serve their purpose, but it

474
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: does sort of take that agency away from the parents,

475
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 3: which I think is an important distinction. You know, like

476
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 3: parents are supposed to be the ones that decide what

477
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 3: is and is not appropriate for their children, and they

478
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 3: should be able to make that judgment based on the

479
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 3: maturity of their kid. I think some thirteen year olds

480
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 3: are are totally cool with reading some of this more

481
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 3: graphic and edgy stuff. Some may not be as mentally mature,

482
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 3: you know, and that might not be good for them.

483
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 3: It could actually send them down a negative path, or

484
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 3: maybe they're troubled and then have something that could potentially exacerbate,

485
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: you know, any kinds of psychological issues. You know.

486
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 4: But what about the flip side of that, The colon

487
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 4: argument would be, yes, you as a parent can control

488
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 4: what your own children read, but does that give you

489
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 4: a right to restrict what books are available to other

490
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 4: people in the community at large. Like if you're saying, hey, guys,

491
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 4: I think we should pull the Penthouse magazine collection from

492
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 4: the middle school library, I think most people can agree

493
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,120
Speaker 4: that's a good move. But if you said, for instance,

494
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 4: let's pull the Canterbury Tales or let's pull Ulysses from

495
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 4: all libraries in our community, then you are you not

496
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 4: infringing upon the rights of adults in that community who,

497
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 4: through taxation, pay the same amount that you do to

498
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 4: keep the library running. Like who gets to decide? That's

499
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 4: the question?

500
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it gets so sticky here, because gosh, man, as

501
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 2: a parent, you're sending your child to a facility that

502
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 2: you are paying taxes on and sometimes paying money for

503
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,960
Speaker 2: them to go to, right, and you are paying money

504
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 2: for school lunches and all the other kind of stuff.

505
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: You're putting your child in someone else's control, right, and

506
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: you're trusting that organization and group of people to do

507
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 2: what you want. Right. But a lot it's a lot

508
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: like our representative government in the United States, where you

509
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 2: are you're putting your faith in that group of people

510
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,840
Speaker 2: that they're going to kind of represent you and what

511
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 2: you want and wish as a parent. And when that

512
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 2: doesn't line up on an individual level, I can imagine

513
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: it being and feeling really uncomfortable.

514
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: Right.

515
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 2: But it's not about the individual unfortunately in that situation, Right,

516
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: It's about laying out the curriculum for a child of

517
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: that age range and a mind that's to be developed

518
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 2: in that age range and at that level of social

519
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:31,719
Speaker 2: interaction and sophistication, right and understanding, So I can understand

520
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: why it's so weird.

521
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean also people who have a more moderate approach,

522
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 4: I would say to banning books, they'll do something that

523
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 4: is a bit of a rhetorical straw man. They'll say, look,

524
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 4: banning a book from a library is not the same

525
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 4: as removing it entirely from publication, and no one is

526
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 4: stopping an author from writing what they want, which, again,

527
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 4: to your point, NOL is a fundamental right here in

528
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 4: the United States. But the main that avoids the main

529
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 4: issue that Matrix dodge is the main issue. It's not

530
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 4: about the writing, it's about who has the right to

531
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 4: access knowledge. And you know, it is a sticky, wicked

532
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 4: it's a tall milkshake. It's an entire bag of badgers,

533
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 4: and no one really has the answers because everybody again

534
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 4: can agree that you shouldn't try to poison the minds

535
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 4: of children, we just as a society can't agree on

536
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 4: what that poison might be. Right, It's an ideological conflict,

537
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 4: and facts do not help in ideological conflicts.

538
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 3: M No, they do not.

539
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 2: Sorry, sorry, I love that you've got facts, really do

540
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: appreciate that. And I see your facts. I just don't

541
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: think they are facts.

542
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 4: Oh where are your facts from those crazy, those crazy

543
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 4: commies over at the Builderberg Foundation.

544
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 3: I will never hear a Builderberg Foundation and not think

545
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 3: build a bear foundation. That's just what pops into my

546
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:11,359
Speaker 3: head every time.

547
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: Guys, I've got a solution for the whole library thing.

548
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 4: You too nice.

549
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 2: You don't ban books from a library. You make a

550
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: special section in the library that's locked up, and you

551
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 2: can only gain access if you have a long drawn

552
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: out conversation with your child and librarian, sort of.

553
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 3: Like that back corner of the video store with the

554
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 3: cameras pointed at it and the weird curtain and yeah.

555
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and you've gotta talk about it for a

556
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: long time.

557
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 4: What if we just build libraries in a hierarchy, you

558
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 4: know what I mean? What if certain people can only

559
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 4: go to certain libraries. You have a library for the poor, right,

560
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 4: and they can't read anything about collective action. You have

561
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,879
Speaker 4: a library for the wealthy and they can't read any

562
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 4: I don't know what they.

563
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 3: Wouldn't They kind of get it all, I think they.

564
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think at the heart that's like, yeah, that's

565
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 4: like your diamond medallion library.

566
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 3: Okay, last last pitch. We don't ban books, we ban people.

567
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 2: Oh.

568
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 3: In interesting, I'm gonna leave it at that.

569
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 4: Well, that's the hierarchy. You know, you're progressively batting people. Yeah,

570
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 4: but in general, let's yes, just get rid of fine.

571
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 4: That's human. Humans are the problem for Earth anyway, Matt,

572
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 4: what what let's tell your vibment.

573
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just I could see it in my head.

574
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 2: Your library book has an RFI D chip in it.

575
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 2: And there are different tiers of library, like you're describing

576
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,839
Speaker 2: here that you can get into. My library book only

577
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 2: works for tiers one through four. But if you get dude,

578
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: if you can gain access to tier seven, that's where

579
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 2: the good stuff is.

580
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 3: Well, it's like security clearances or something. You know, it's

581
00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 3: like access to classified documents. You know, you have to

582
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,799
Speaker 3: you have to show that you are cleared, too, because

583
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 3: I mean that's dangerous information. I mean, you know we're

584
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,720
Speaker 3: not talking about that's not exactly what you would consider books.

585
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 3: But with this whole Trump classified documents scandal, you're starting

586
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 3: to read some of the pages from the indictment the

587
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 3: types of documents that he had in his bathroom at

588
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 3: mar Lago for just anyone going in there, you know,

589
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 3: to have a little seat on the throne, find a

590
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 3: little light reading material, seriously compromise national security, not in

591
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 3: a hyperbolic way, like in a very real way.

592
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,360
Speaker 4: And we're gonna get to that in just a second.

593
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 4: Two And I like that direction because what we need

594
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 4: to do for the purposes of objectivity here, let's bracket

595
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 4: the debate about children, which is sometimes held disingenuously. To

596
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 4: be honest with you, let's move on to the concept

597
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 4: of dangerous books. Went on Twitter and said, hey, do

598
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 4: you think any book should be banned? Don't worry about

599
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 4: the kid's books or that the ideological culture war debate.

600
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 4: Are their danger books? Should they be banned? And one

601
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 4: of the things that comes up pretty often is a

602
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 4: very successful racist propaganda like mind comp for the Protocols

603
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 4: of the Elders of Zion, and in the interest of

604
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 4: full disclosure, just to be absolutely fair, we have read

605
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 4: copies of both of these works and they're not well written.

606
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 4: They're not even like they're not even well written books.

607
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 2: I just want to say when Ben says we I

608
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: am excluded from that week as I've not read mind

609
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: comp but I can't wait to let me.

610
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:41,800
Speaker 4: Not worth it. And and my rationale personally for reading

611
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 4: books that I know I will object to is that

612
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 4: I feel it is if you disagree with something, it

613
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:54,479
Speaker 4: is your intellectual responsibility to understand it as much, if

614
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 4: not more than the people who believe in it.

615
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 2: Right, So well, I guess I just idea, maybe I

616
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 2: need to get on that.

617
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 4: Dude, you saved so much time. It is not a

618
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 4: good book now once you read it. It's dumb and

619
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 4: it led to horrific things. It would also definitely be

620
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 4: a red flag for any country if those books became

621
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 4: super popular, you know what I mean? That would that

622
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 4: would be a bad sign.

623
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 2: Wait, didn't it become really popular not that long ago? Again?

624
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 3: Ah?

625
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 4: Man, I think you're right in Germany.

626
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:42,360
Speaker 2: Right, yep, I'm seeing Reuter's article from twenty seventeen quote

627
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:47,799
Speaker 2: reprint of Hitler's Mind komf takes Germany by storm. Apparently

628
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: sales have soared at this time since a special edition

629
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 2: of this book went on sail in Germany in twenty sixteen.

630
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's spent thirty five weeks in twenty sixteen on

631
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 4: the nonfiction bestseller list in Germany, sold eighty five thousand copies.

632
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 3: Germany has intense laws surrounding Nazi memorabilia, Nazi speech, you know,

633
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:17,640
Speaker 3: and all of that stuff. I mean, it is like

634
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 3: highly illegal to possess Nazi artifacts, and I think you know,

635
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 3: you can really get in big trouble for espousing any

636
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 3: kind of hate speech.

637
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've got I've got some friends US nationals who

638
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 4: are living, working, and moving through Germany currently and have

639
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 4: been for a few years. And it's very true.

640
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 3: There's not.

641
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 4: It's not something where you want to be a little

642
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 4: Internet edge lord and saying oh what about blah blah

643
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 4: blah not funny, And those laws do exist for a reason.

644
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 4: It's tricky though, because when you attempt to suppress a work,

645
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 4: you inevitably encounter the Streisand effect. In modern civilization, you

646
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 4: increase its visibility. That means people who might be vulnerable

647
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 4: to racist propaganda, who would have ordinarily not picked up

648
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 4: this book, they are going to be more likely to

649
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 4: read it, even if they would have ignored it.

650
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 3: Off air.

651
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 4: We're talking about this a little bit, and you raise

652
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 4: the comparison of prohibition.

653
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. I mean similar to the Streisand effect,

654
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 3: the idea if you want something gone, it's just going

655
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 3: to proliferate that thing even more. With prohibition, you know,

656
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 3: you make something illegal that people like, they're just going

657
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 3: to find other ways to get it, and then chances

658
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 3: are it'll balloon out of your control much more than

659
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 3: if you had just left it alone in the first place,

660
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 3: and like regulated it and kept an eye on it,

661
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 3: because then, you know, things kind of moved to the shadows.

662
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 3: It started to take on kind of a whole nother

663
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:58,439
Speaker 3: life of its own.

664
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 4: Reminds me of the cobra effect.

665
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, cobra effect. Look it up. It's

666
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 2: important for you to know that that's a real thing.

667
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:14,240
Speaker 4: So that is dangerous ideological stuff, right, Those are books

668
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 4: arguing that a sizable portion of humanity is somehow inherently

669
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 4: bad and that results in the death of innocent people.

670
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 4: Inarguable it does. Those are bad books. But what about

671
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 4: books that contain potentially dangerous secular knowledge, real step by

672
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 4: step guides to doing things like creating improvised explosive devices

673
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 4: or hypothetically, I don't know too much about this one.

674
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 4: What if there was a manual ikea style that taught

675
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 4: you how to build nuclear warheads?

676
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 3: Yeah?

677
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 2: What if? I think that one would be tens of

678
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: that thousands of times less dangerous than a book that

679
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,760
Speaker 2: showed you how to make, you know, an explosive device

680
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 2: out of manure and fertilizer and that kind of stuff. Right,

681
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 2: just because you can't you couldn't get your hands on

682
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: you know, anything to get fissile material, but you can

683
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 2: sure as heck go down and buy some fertilizer.

684
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 3: It's a good point. Yeah. I mean a quote unquote

685
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 3: manual for say, or a schematic for like a nuclear

686
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 3: power plant. You know, is that would that make it

687
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 3: easier to, say, carry out a terrorist attack on said plant,

688
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 3: to know how the infrastructure works and the ins and outs.

689
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 3: I don't know if that stuff is kept completely confidential,

690
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 3: but I think you can get your hands on some

691
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 3: material like that.

692
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 4: You can. I think the point you're gay to here, Matt,

693
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 4: is an instruction manual that requires it's like a recipe, right,

694
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 4: An instruction manual recipe that requires very hard to obtain

695
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 4: ingredients is going to be less of a threat because

696
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 4: someone might really want to build a nuclear bomb, but

697
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,319
Speaker 4: they can't even get a hold of a decent centrifuge. Right.

698
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 4: So that's way different from realizing, oh, I can take

699
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 4: and beat me here, Paul, and then mix them at

700
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,439
Speaker 4: a certain temperature to create an explosive that I can

701
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 4: put in the kind of pipe you would buy a

702
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 4: home depot.

703
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 2: Yes, that's why a simple children's chemistry book called the

704
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: Golden Book of chemistry Experiments was banned in I think

705
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 2: it was like nineteen seventy, nineteen sixty nine, and it's

706
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 2: it was a children's book for chemical experiments that you

707
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 2: could do for fun at home with your family. But

708
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 2: in there you might figure out how to make chlorine gas,

709
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 2: or might figure actually not might you would figure out

710
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: how to make some really dangerous things.

711
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 4: But then where does the line stop? You know, a

712
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 4: good textbook for becoming an electrician can teach you how

713
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:14,479
Speaker 4: to wire things in dangerous ways, and it can also

714
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 4: it can also contain information that, if attempted by a novice,

715
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 4: could endanger the life of the novice or certainly give

716
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 4: them a zap make life a little more exciting for

717
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 4: a few seconds. I don't know, Like, how would you

718
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 4: Here's the thing, There's no getting around it. In the

719
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 4: wrong hands, those books can lead directly to the loss

720
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 4: of human life. But how do you address that? Do

721
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 4: we try to create a registry for books? Only the

722
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,319
Speaker 4: military can buy them. You can only get them if

723
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 4: you're in an approved academic institution. And then how do

724
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 4: you keep track of all the opportunities to make copies?

725
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,360
Speaker 4: How do you keep an eye on every version of

726
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 4: the book man because college students are broke and regularly

727
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 4: sell b looks back at the end of the semester

728
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 4: for peanuts.

729
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 2: No, you're I mean, it's very complicated questions there. I

730
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 2: don't know how you even make those decisions, like what

731
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 2: is your rubric? How dangerous is this for society as

732
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 2: a whole? Is how does it better society having the

733
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 2: anarchist cookbook around in available just in case we need it,

734
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 2: or is it better that we just don't have that knowledge?

735
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 2: And then how in the heck do you control it?

736
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 3: Well, I mean it's sort of like the like the

737
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 3: gun control debate. You know, it's the idea that some

738
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 3: people say that guns don't kill people. People kill people.

739
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 3: You know, books don't kill people. People learn how to

740
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 3: kill people by reading books. And sure haven't been very

741
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 3: successful with gun control. So I don't see how this

742
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 3: is any more or less dangerous. Seems like kind of

743
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 3: a moot point when you have actual weapons of murder,

744
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 3: you know, readily available to just about anybody with a

745
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 3: driver's license, like.

746
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 4: A losing proposition. Then from that perspective, yeah, I mean,

747
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 4: I love that we're mentioning the anarchist cookbook. I have

748
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 4: several versions of that book from back in the day.

749
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 4: It is the height of an unreliable narrator because some

750
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,320
Speaker 4: stuff is put in a couple of versions there as pranks.

751
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 4: But you can easily find this as a PDF, and

752
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 4: it's a reference work. It's a bootleg collection of all

753
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 4: sorts of interesting projects from old school telephone hacking all

754
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 4: the way up to here's how you build a bob,

755
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 4: Here's how you can dig, Here's how you can concentrate

756
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 4: nicotine from tobacco products into an actual poison. Here is

757
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 4: how you can make LSD at home, just like Owlsley,

758
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 4: but not as good as Owsley Celeste properly. I mean,

759
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 4: should there be a law preventing people from writing these

760
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 4: sorts of manuals? I mean, does that go to fiction?

761
00:46:59,520 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 3: Right?

762
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 4: We talk that book. Stephen King removed from publication of

763
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:09,919
Speaker 4: his own accord the Rage Rage. Yes, that's the one.

764
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 3: Yeah.

765
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 4: He removed Rage because he was concerned that Rage describes

766
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 4: a school shooting and that has planned in advance, premeditated,

767
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 4: and King was worried that his instructions, his depictions were

768
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 4: close enough to how you would actually do this successfully

769
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 4: that it would function as an instruction manual.

770
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 3: It's also apparently not very good.

771
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 4: It's not it's not my favorite.

772
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 3: I think that was part. I mean, I appreciate the

773
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,239
Speaker 3: benevolence there, mister King, but I did also get a

774
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 3: sense that he was embarrassed by it just as a work,

775
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 3: because it was like when he wrote it when he

776
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,880
Speaker 3: was like still really young. I think he wrote it

777
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 3: when he was like a teenager.

778
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 2: Maybe well it was nineteen seventy seven, right, and it

779
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 2: came out and he wrote it as Richard Bachmann is.

780
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 4: The Bachman days. That was his and probably still is

781
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 4: his alias for a while for some darker works. But

782
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:19,440
Speaker 4: he was also from what I understand, he was incredibly disturbed,

783
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 4: and rightly so because multiple school shootings in the eighties

784
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 4: and early nineties when they occurred, authorities later found a

785
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 4: copy of Rage amid the belongings of the perpetrators. So

786
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 4: it is a real problem. But you know, even if

787
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 4: the author themselves tries to put the monsters back in

788
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 4: Pandora's jar, it's usually too late, right, Like, this guy

789
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 4: wrote the book doesn't want it out there, and people

790
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 4: still have copies. In fact, they became collector's editions because

791
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 4: there are no new editions out there.

792
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 2: Speaking of collector's editions, the book stuff they don't want

793
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: want you to know has been banned and you cannot

794
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 2: get it anywhere, but and don't read it. Definitely don't

795
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: read it. But we need to take a break so

796
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 2: you can go do something else for a few moments

797
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 2: while you listen to some ads. So don't buy the

798
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,359
Speaker 2: banned book stuff they don't want you to know in

799
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 2: this ad.

800
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 4: Break available everywhere books are sold, and we have returned.

801
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 4: Let's set up the point, or let's pursue the point.

802
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 4: Know that you set up so well just a few

803
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,600
Speaker 4: minutes ago. This idea of banning stuff can apply to

804
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 4: confidential or classified government info. I mean, forget books about

805
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 4: trans youth, forget the idea of for the children. This

806
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 4: one part of the debate is where Uncle Sam does

807
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 4: not play around. Even the most extreme advocates of openness

808
00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 4: and transparency, the kind of people who fight for Foyer reform,

809
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 4: they're going to agree that some of that stuff has

810
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,399
Speaker 4: to stay under wraps because it's national security. And as

811
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 4: you mentioned earlier, while we are recording today, this is

812
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 4: one of the big issues facing a former president of

813
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 4: the US. How is it going to go We don't know.

814
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:23,800
Speaker 4: I imagine this will drag out in court for a little while, right.

815
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, while there's a presidential election campaign going on.

816
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 3: That's somehow knowing? Is that worry that it's going to

817
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 3: have any effect on his prospects? Well?

818
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 4: Yeah again, And I think people are putting this out

819
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 4: more and more often. Now there are only two requirements

820
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 4: to be the president of the United States of America.

821
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 4: You just have to be born in the US and

822
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 4: you have to be what is is it thirty five?

823
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, or eighty seven, whatever, it doesn't matter.

824
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,280
Speaker 4: You have to you have to be at least thirty five.

825
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 4: You have to be from the US. Anything else goes.

826
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:07,240
Speaker 4: Isn't that nuts?

827
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 3: And yet they disenfranchise people convicted of a felony, right, right,

828
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,399
Speaker 3: But if you want to run for president, that's totally cool.

829
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,400
Speaker 3: You just can't vote for presidents.

830
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,759
Speaker 4: I kind of love it, how I love picturing the

831
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 4: pitch meetings of the founding fathers. You know, people also

832
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 4: tended to die earlier. People else they're saying, okay, thirty five.

833
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 4: By thirty five, you know what's going on? Right, and

834
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 4: you can't be British, But we don't want to say

835
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 4: that part.

836
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 3: Well, it's just another example of how everything's kind of

837
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,400
Speaker 3: built on this gentleman's agreement. You know that, Well, you

838
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 3: don't need a bunch of rules. No felon is going

839
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 3: to run for presidents, and if they did, they'd never

840
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:56,080
Speaker 3: get anywhere because people would, you know, be like shocked. Yeahs,

841
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:57,120
Speaker 3: things have changed.

842
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 4: I like the picture. I like the picture of this though.

843
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 4: I like to picture this idea just totally wrecking the

844
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 4: life and the day of some guy who's like thirty

845
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 4: four years old and was about to go ahead to

846
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 4: head with George Washington and he's going to conspiracy. Yes,

847
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,040
Speaker 4: I'll be back next year, and they're like, no, no,

848
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 4: good point. Let's see how long George can be president.

849
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 4: Because Darren, you are unhinged, my friend. Uh So, the

850
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 4: thing is like, we see these cases of self selecting

851
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 4: suppression of a book.

852
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 2: You know.

853
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 4: An example would be the Crew Change Guide, which we

854
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 4: talked about before. People who function as you could call

855
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 4: them modern day nomads or hobo's or whatever, train hoppers,

856
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 4: folks who ride the rails illegally. They have a book

857
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,839
Speaker 4: and this book is called the Crew Change Guide. You

858
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 4: are not supposed to sell it nor to publish it.

859
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 4: There are a couple of academic institutions which have outdated

860
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 4: version of these. Instead, the idea is you pass it

861
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 4: on in person, You hand it to a fellow traveler

862
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 4: when they've sort of proven that they are trustworthy. And

863
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 4: through this process, the train hopping community banned the book

864
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 4: effectively from the majority of the reading public.

865
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 2: That's so weird to me.

866
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 4: You like it or you don't like it.

867
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,400
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know how I feel about it.

868
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 4: I mean, they're banning a book.

869
00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, they are banning a book. But I want to

870
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 2: know how to hop trains. But I'm never going to

871
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 2: hop a train, but if I need to, I want

872
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 2: to know how to hop a train. Give me that book.

873
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 3: Just go on YouTube these books, I mean.

874
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 4: And then another example of self banning or suppression would

875
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 4: be scientology. Right, you find this in the world of

876
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 4: religion and spirituality. There are sacred texts which are banned

877
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 4: from the public. And we didn't find out, or we

878
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 4: knew about. We knew about the non public scientology writing,

879
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 4: which they call technology, but we hadn't read it, I think, personally,

880
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 4: until it was published via wiki leaks. Yeah, and scientology

881
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:17,400
Speaker 4: all the Xenu.

882
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 3: Stuff, the end of the Bridge or whatever, and it's,

883
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 3: you know, the stuff that really kind of frankly made

884
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 3: the scientology a bit of a laughing stock. And a

885
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 3: lot of the folks that had paid their way up

886
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 3: to that point were like, wait, what it's it's it's

887
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 3: what alien ghosts? I'm sorry, yeah, interdimensional overlord Okay.

888
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 4: And they say, well, we did record what you said

889
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 4: during your audit session.

890
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 3: Sunk cost fallacy. Right at that point, it was sort

891
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 3: of like, maybe I'm gonna go find another religion to mess.

892
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 2: With, because I was at the antique store the other

893
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 2: day and I found a full collection of What's the Cat?

894
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 2: What's the Cats Now? El Ron Ron Hubbard's old science

895
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,760
Speaker 2: fiction writing, and he was so great. They're like pulp

896
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 2: fiction novels, you know, like just oh it was so.

897
00:55:09,040 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 3: Yet paid by the word in those days. Apparently he

898
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 3: would like write, he would type it on rolls of paper,

899
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 3: like he would just like literally just churning these things out.

900
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 3: He submitted them all to magazines, and you know, by

901
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 3: and large was considered. I guess that's maybe that's where

902
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 3: a hack comes from, is literally someone who's hacking away

903
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 3: the typewriter because they get paid by the word. I'm

904
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 3: just guessing, but uh that was him. And then you

905
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 3: know what this is, uh writing stuff for the birds.

906
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:35,760
Speaker 3: We'll be able to become a god.

907
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:43,120
Speaker 4: Oh Scientology. Oh l Ron the commodore himself, Uh probably

908
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 4: had some things to say about banning books. But you know, look,

909
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 4: you can hear other episodes we've done on Scientology, and

910
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 4: you can encounter other pure podcast of ours who examine

911
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 4: the controversy surrounding the cos or church of Scientology. But

912
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 4: they openly acknowledge that they as an organization, holds some

913
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 4: material back from public access. And they have a quote

914
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 4: about it. This comes directly from their website. We're not

915
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 4: spinning it, We're not giving you an editorial. This is

916
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 4: what they have said.

917
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 2: The vast majority of Scientology scriptures are widely available to

918
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 2: the general public and can be read and studied by anyone. However,

919
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,279
Speaker 2: a very small portion of the scriptures that deal with

920
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 2: the most advanced levels of spiritual counseling is restricted to

921
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 2: those parishioners who have attained the prior levels of spiritual awareness.

922
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,400
Speaker 4: Okay, so it's like a class with pre res like

923
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 4: in university. They're basically saying, they say, what to be

924
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 4: prepared to read this and understand it and not have

925
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 4: damaging effects, you have to be prepared to receive these materials.

926
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 4: They have another quote where they say premature exposure could

927
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 4: impede yourself spiritual development. So again we see this concept

928
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 4: of protecting people. We are restricting your access to information

929
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 4: for your own good. And there's the rub. As Shakespeare

930
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:14,959
Speaker 4: would say, I mean, the amount of the idea of

931
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,120
Speaker 4: protecting people is a tall milkshake. How can you be

932
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 4: how can you agree to be protected from something if

933
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 4: you're not allowed to know what you're being protected from.

934
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 2: Oh, it reminds me of that movie Demolition Man.

935
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 4: Seashells. That's always that's the part that two thirds of us.

936
00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 3: Something to do with the bathroom is very big.

937
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 2: Well, just just the concept that society has gotten to

938
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 2: a place where, uh, these all of these concepts no

939
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,760
Speaker 2: longer even exist because all of it has been banned

940
00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 2: to the point where in every room in your society

941
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 2: there's a little microphone and if you say a swear

942
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 2: word or something inappropriate, you get fined a few cents

943
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 2: or whatever. Because it's so they're suppressing any thought that

944
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:12,919
Speaker 2: could be out there.

945
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean kids always remember throughout history, like any

946
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 3: time there's a need to keep tabs on people or

947
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 3: to ban information, that is a real to do. It's

948
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 3: very difficult to do it successfully. Like if you look

949
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 3: at like East and West Berlin and like this German

950
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:34,840
Speaker 3: secret Police and stuff, having like kids like narking on

951
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 3: their parents and all that, like if you've ever seen

952
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 3: the movie The Lives of Others like that is a

953
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 3: real organizational conundrum. Just to get that done, to keep

954
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 3: it up and honestly kind of wrecks society and makes

955
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 3: it worse than if you just let the information be

956
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 3: out there and have people decide for themselves.

957
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 4: And you know, that's a big part of the question, right,

958
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 4: who should be the arbiter here, who watches the watchmen,

959
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 4: who decides what knowledge is or is not appropriate. I mean,

960
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 4: if we're being reasonable, if we just trace the logic out,

961
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 4: it runs into double think really quickly, because if you

962
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 4: are the person or the entity who decides what books

963
00:59:13,360 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 4: should be banned, that means you have to have knowledge

964
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,000
Speaker 4: of what you're banning, which means you have to violate

965
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 4: your own ban by reading the thing.

966
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 2: I figured it out we'll just let missus Davis do it.

967
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 2: We'll let the algorithm the AI.

968
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 4: Oh great, Yeah, the AI would be great. And then

969
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 4: we can't read things like I robots, and then we

970
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 4: can't read things, you know, like the script for Space

971
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 4: Odyssey two thousand and one or two thousand and one

972
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 4: of Space Odyssey. I mean the problem right now for

973
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 4: banning books, I think it's in the US currently. It's

974
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 4: more hinging on the ideological conflict. The people who want

975
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:58,840
Speaker 4: to ban books and libraries, they're not worried about somebody

976
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 4: learning how to make a bomb. They're not worried about

977
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 4: people illegally modifying firearms, figuring out how to rob an

978
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 4: atm et cetera. They're worried in ideology and conflict with

979
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 4: their own will be transmitted to someone else, and that

980
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 4: the audience for that conflicting ideology might agree with it.

981
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 4: So if you're removing these opportunities to encounter other beliefs

982
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 4: that you may not agree with, then are we not

983
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 4: also inherently removing an individual's right to choose what they believe.

984
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 4: Like if you go into a restaurant, if every restaurant

985
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:39,440
Speaker 4: you have ever gone to only has pento beans on

986
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 4: the menu, and you don't know that other restaurants serve

987
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 4: other stuff, then, like, what is your opinion on restaurants?

988
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 4: Does your opinion matter? You only know about the bean restaurants.

989
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 4: Sit down, that's maybe that doesn't land, But.

990
01:00:58,720 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 3: All beans taste the same.

991
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 2: Sit down and enjoy your pintos because they are delicious.

992
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 3: Here. Really, I feel like beans are like fruity pebbles,

993
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 3: you know, easy, different colors, but they all they're all

994
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 3: the same flavoring. What aline, that's my hot take? And

995
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 3: I will die on this bean hills.

996
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 4: There we go, hill of beans.

997
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 3: I love it.

998
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 4: So maybe we end with a thought experiment, just to

999
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 4: drive this home. What if you's this is better than

1000
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 4: the bean restaurant example. What if you grew up in

1001
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 4: a world where, for some reason, all books about the

1002
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 4: moon were banned. Every book, every work of literature referring

1003
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:39,600
Speaker 4: to the moon, every textbook talking about the moon and

1004
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 4: gravity and the effect of tides. All the poems, all

1005
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 4: the crappy poems that say stuff about the moon. It

1006
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 4: was all removed. No one talks about in the public.

1007
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 4: But the moon is still up there, right, you see

1008
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 4: it on a consistent basis. No one can write about it.

1009
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 4: How long does that society function with that weird idiosyncrasy?

1010
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 2: Well, you just name it something else and now it's that.

1011
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 2: Now you can talk about that the neo. Yeah, there

1012
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:15,840
Speaker 2: you go, good night. NOOM books ever written.

1013
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 4: So I mean that's the thing, right, How is that

1014
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 4: argument different from what we're talking about, Like, if you

1015
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 4: want literature to ignore stuff in the real world, literature reflects,

1016
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:31,320
Speaker 4: responds to the world outside of books, right, So you

1017
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 4: can change the past or the depiction of it. You

1018
01:02:34,680 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 4: can change the way it's written about. You can suppress

1019
01:02:37,840 --> 01:02:41,600
Speaker 4: conversations about topics you personally don't like, but the real

1020
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 4: world is still there, and those topics, if they are real,

1021
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 4: still exist. I mean banning books I don't know. It

1022
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:51,400
Speaker 4: might be right for some people, but it's not gonna

1023
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 4: make those things we object to suddenly disappear.

1024
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:00,960
Speaker 2: Nope, not unless we let the a I you know,

1025
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 2: eradicate all thought that is outside of the AIS parameters

1026
01:03:04,720 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 2: for humanity.

1027
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 4: Here we go to your libraries. I don't know. Maybe

1028
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 4: we ended this way. Should books be banned? Should any

1029
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 4: books be banned?

1030
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 3: Yes, all of.

1031
01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 4: Them, all of them. We're done with reading.

1032
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 3: I'm being a jerk, but I know, I will say it.

1033
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 3: Part of this does feel a little moot in our

1034
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 3: digital age, where it's literally impossible to remove things from

1035
01:03:28,160 --> 01:03:30,800
Speaker 3: the Internet, you know what I mean. It's just like

1036
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:33,439
Speaker 3: to your point about the streissa and effect, like it's

1037
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 3: just a phenomenon. The Internet has a life of its own.

1038
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:39,959
Speaker 3: It is a self replicating system. And not to mention

1039
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 3: things like the dark web, you know, where maybe I mean,

1040
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 3: we know that that's its own. Uh, it's not not

1041
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 3: as safe or as private as you might think. But nah,

1042
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 3: I don't think you can. I don't think it's possible

1043
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 3: to Well, we do know the whole country's censor parts

1044
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 3: of the Internet, you know, and that is a thing

1045
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 3: that can be done. But no, I don't think books

1046
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 3: should be banned. I don't. Maybe there's cases where access

1047
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 3: should be limited, just like with the you know, is

1048
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:10,240
Speaker 3: it going to cause harm directly?

1049
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 2: When you guys travel to other countries, do you ever

1050
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 2: try and look up things in that other country that

1051
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 2: you think might be suppressed within the US, like within

1052
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 2: the infrastructure of the US networks. Have you ever found anything?

1053
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 4: In my opinion, yes, wow, but.

1054
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 2: I don't think I've traveled enough to even like attempt

1055
01:04:37,720 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 2: it yet. But that's a fascinating concept that just that

1056
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 2: we are all in some kind of information ban right.

1057
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:51,919
Speaker 4: Info bubbles all we don't know it. No, No, we're

1058
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 4: the folks in Plato's cave right so often. But this

1059
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 4: is where we want to pass the library card to

1060
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 4: you while those are still a thing. What do you

1061
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 4: think you know for being intellectually honest? Should any books

1062
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 4: be banned? Should access be a free for all? Should

1063
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 4: some things be limited? Is it even possible nowadays to

1064
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:15,240
Speaker 4: do so?

1065
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 3: Let us know?

1066
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 4: For now you can find us all sorts of places online.

1067
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:22,360
Speaker 4: We hope even after this episode publishes.

1068
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:26,040
Speaker 3: It's right, you can find us all over the Internet

1069
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:30,320
Speaker 3: until we're removed from it, hopefully not anytime soon. We

1070
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:34,840
Speaker 3: exist at the handle Conspiracy Stuff on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube,

1071
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:37,040
Speaker 3: Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram and TikTok.

1072
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 2: Do you like phones and use in your mouth? We'll

1073
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 2: call one eight three three STDWYDK. That didn't really work out, guys,

1074
01:05:45,200 --> 01:05:47,920
Speaker 2: but that is the phone number. When you call in

1075
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 2: you've got three minutes. Please give yourself a cool nickname

1076
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 2: and say whatever you'd like. Just at some point let

1077
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 2: us know if we can use your name and message

1078
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:57,600
Speaker 2: on the air. If you've got more to say that

1079
01:05:57,720 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 2: can fit in that three minute voice message about how

1080
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 2: you just bought our book for all your friends and family,

1081
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 2: then why not instead send us a good old fashioned email.

1082
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 4: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1083
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production

1084
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1085
01:06:34,280 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.