Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,
Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
Speaker 1: episode is going to be a longer one part of
Speaker 1: the series where I interview fascinating people about how they
Speaker 1: take their days from great to awesome and any advice
Speaker 1: they have for the rest of us. So today I
Speaker 1: am delighted to welcome doctor James Hewitt to the show.
Speaker 1: James is a human performance scientist and the author of
Speaker 1: the book Regenerative Performance. So, James, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Thank you, it's great to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit
Speaker 1: about yourself.
Speaker 2: So I've been fascinated with human performance for as long
Speaker 2: as I can remember, and certainly a long time before
Speaker 2: I called it human performance. That fascination started when I
Speaker 2: was a kid. I was always fascinated by anything that
Speaker 2: went fast, so think space, rockets, racing cars, anything with wheels.
Speaker 2: And eventually that interest led me to discover this sport
Speaker 2: called road cycling racing. And so I was enamored by
Speaker 2: this idea that you can hit speeds of one hundred
Speaker 2: kilometers an hour on tires if you centimeters thick and
Speaker 2: It's amazing what you can convince yourself is a good
Speaker 2: idea before your preference of cortex is fully developed. But
Speaker 2: to cut a long story short, I moved to the
Speaker 2: Santa France to pursue this dream of becoming a pro cyclist.
Speaker 2: That didn't work out, so I returned to the UK
Speaker 2: to study sports science, eventually set up a coaching business,
Speaker 2: ended up working with what I call knowledge workers now,
Speaker 2: so people who think for a living, because I found
Speaker 2: out that as much as I wanted to work with
Speaker 2: pro athletes, they couldn't afford to pay me, and ended
Speaker 2: up working with these really interesting people who had very
Speaker 2: demanding jobs in London, where I was based at the time,
Speaker 2: who for some reason, after working eighty hours a week,
Speaker 2: wanted to go and race one hundred and eighty miles
Speaker 2: every weekend. And this led to this fascination with the workplace,
Speaker 2: but also this revelation but the same things that were
Speaker 2: holding them back from performing well on their bike were
Speaker 2: also stopping them from reaching their potential in their professional life,
Speaker 2: and this really often came down to this imbalance between
Speaker 2: efforts and recovery, and so I ended up developing this
Speaker 2: conceptualization of knowledge work thinking work like a cognitive endurance
Speaker 2: activity where optimal performance, peak performance, sustainable performance, however you
Speaker 2: want to frame it, emerges from this integration of effort
Speaker 2: and recovery rather than this endless pursuit of being always on.
Speaker 2: And that's been my area of focus and passion for
Speaker 2: the best part of fifteen years now excellent.
Speaker 1: So there are parallels then, between even what we're doing
Speaker 1: sitting at our desks and someone cycling, you know, hundreds
Speaker 1: of miles. There is a parallel there are you're saying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I think there's several. The most fundamental I
Speaker 2: think relates to a general principle that sustained performance for humans,
Speaker 2: whether it's cognitive or physical, relies on us oscillating between
Speaker 2: periods of deliberate effort and effective recovery where we recharge
Speaker 2: and regenerate, and if we get that mix right, then
Speaker 2: we don't just bounce back, we can actually get stronger
Speaker 2: over time. There's this really interesting concept in sports science
Speaker 2: that some of your listeners may have heard of called supercompensation,
Speaker 2: and it describes how if we induce a load, we
Speaker 2: work hard, actually following that we experience fatigue. Our performance
Speaker 2: might drop even but it provides a stimulus for growth
Speaker 2: that if we have the right resources available in the
Speaker 2: context of sport, that might be adequate nutrition, enough sleep,
Speaker 2: enough time, then we don't just bounce back, we actually
Speaker 2: get stronger over time. And that general principle I think
Speaker 2: applies to the workplace too. And if you think about
Speaker 2: a career, for example, what at one time would have
Speaker 2: felt overwhelming early in a career, over time actually feels
Speaker 2: very manageable because we are super compensating. We're learning to
Speaker 2: tolerate and grow through that load. Unfortunately, sometimes we can
Speaker 2: get that relationship between effort and recovery wrong. In sport,
Speaker 2: you might describe that as overtraining. Technically we call it
Speaker 2: non functional overreaching, which isn't very memorable, is it. But
Speaker 2: in a workplace we might call it burnout, and that
Speaker 2: can be quite challenging to recover from. In a similar
Speaker 2: way that for athletes, overtraining or this nonfunctional overreaching can
Speaker 2: be difficult to recover from. So at a very fundamental level,
Speaker 2: I think there are general principles that govern cognitive and
Speaker 2: physical effort, and we can use those general principles to
Speaker 2: try and design work and life in a way that
Speaker 2: might enable us to achieve our goals, but do so
Speaker 2: in a way that doesn't harm our health and well
Speaker 2: being in the process.
Speaker 1: Well, that whole idea of effective recovery, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people are unclear what that would actually mean,
Speaker 1: right that, what does it mean to have rest that
Speaker 1: has a function as opposed to just being when you
Speaker 1: stop doing whatever you are doing.
Speaker 2: So I often think about this in three dimensions, and
Speaker 2: anyone who speaks to me for any length of time
Speaker 2: soon picks up on the fact that I think in
Speaker 2: frameworks for better or worse, and maybe too much. So
Speaker 2: sometimes when I think about recovery, I'm often thinking about
Speaker 2: the replenishment of three at three dimensions, three of resources
Speaker 2: or three types of resources. You could think about it.
Speaker 2: So we've got physical resources, we've got emotional resources, we've
Speaker 2: got cognitive resources. So there is an aspect of recovery
Speaker 2: from both physical and cognitive effort that is physical. We know,
Speaker 2: for example, during sleep, that adequate quality sleep actually involves
Speaker 2: some physiological processes, some physical processes in our brain. They
Speaker 2: think it might even be associated with some type of
Speaker 2: cleaning process associated with something called the glymphatic system, which
Speaker 2: you can almost think about as the plumbing for your brain.
Speaker 2: And we also know that recovery has this emotional component.
Speaker 2: Many of us will have experienced this. Imagine your typical workday.
Speaker 2: We hold it together with our colleagues. For the most part.
Speaker 2: You might be in a difficult meeting. You hold your tongue,
Speaker 2: you stay quiet. There's a difficult interaction with a colleague,
Speaker 2: but you're self regulated and you're calm and you say
Speaker 2: the right thing, and you get home and you're with
Speaker 2: loved ones, family friends. They often get the worst of
Speaker 2: us because we're emotionally depleted and we need environments that
Speaker 2: will help us to emotionally recover, to restore those emotional resources.
Speaker 2: For some people, that might be people who recharge them.
Speaker 2: For others, it might be time on your own. And
Speaker 2: then finally, we've got these cognitive resources that need to
Speaker 2: be restored. You know, we're deploying cognitive resources all day.
Speaker 2: We're solving complex problems, we're switching between tasks, we're under
Speaker 2: time pressure, and at the end of the day, we
Speaker 2: need time. We need space where cognitive load decreases so
Speaker 2: that we can restore those cognitive resources. And again, you've
Speaker 2: probably experienced this. You know, you get to the end
Speaker 2: of the day and you've been making difficult decisions, you've
Speaker 2: been solving complex problems, you've been pulled in more directions,
Speaker 2: but you're on top of it. And you get home
Speaker 2: and someone says, well, what do you want for dinner?
Speaker 2: And he said, I've got no idea. That feels like
Speaker 2: an insurmountable decision. And because we're cognitively depleted and so
Speaker 2: we need to be in environments where we can restore
Speaker 2: those cognitive resources. But unfortunately many of us live and
Speaker 2: work in a way where that recovery doesn't happen, where
Speaker 2: you know, we're under emotional stress. Sometimes that's out of
Speaker 2: our control outside of work. Sometimes though, it's within our control,
Speaker 2: because we end up doom scrolling social media and seeing
Speaker 2: all the terrible things that are happening in the world.
Speaker 2: Not to say that we want to ignore those things,
Speaker 2: but the access that we have to this constant stream
Speaker 2: of terrible news is very unnatural for a human. For
Speaker 2: most of human history, that wasn't possible. Similarly, cognitively, we
Speaker 2: sometimes engage in kind of pseudo work. You open our
Speaker 2: laptop and are we really productive or are you just
Speaker 2: trying to distract ourselves from something else or make ourselves
Speaker 2: feel better because we're still working and finally, physically, sometimes
Speaker 2: inadvertently we end up compromising our physical recovery without realizing it.
Speaker 2: And the classic example of that for many knowledge workers
Speaker 2: is you get to the end of the day, you
Speaker 2: have a glass of wine. You think it relaxes you,
Speaker 2: and it might do psychologically in the short term, but
Speaker 2: even a single glass of wine can impair your physical
Speaker 2: recovery by about ten percent because of its disrupting the
Speaker 2: effect on sleep. So I hope think that gives you
Speaker 2: a bit of an idea and a framework to think
Speaker 2: about recovery.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, Well, we're going to take a quick ad break
Speaker 1: and then we'll be back talking about how we can
Speaker 1: use this knowledge during an average work day. Well, I
Speaker 1: am back talking with doctor James Hewitt, who is a
Speaker 1: human performance scientist and the author of the book Regenerative Performance. So, James,
Speaker 1: we've been talking about the various things that you know
Speaker 1: we need to recover on these various dimensions. I would
Speaker 1: imagine even during the course of a work day. It
Speaker 1: doesn't need to just be at the end of a
Speaker 1: work day that we build in how these moments of regeneration.
Speaker 1: What might it look like a workday to build in regeneration,
Speaker 1: so we aren't reaching the point where you know, by
Speaker 1: three pm people have kind of lost it and are
Speaker 1: having nothing else good happen after that.
Speaker 2: So my number one tip would be to tackle what
Speaker 2: it's sometimes described as productivity theater, and this describes this
Speaker 2: challenge that many of us have that we feel a
Speaker 2: need to look busy rather than being able to focus
Speaker 2: on being productive. And that might look like meetings that
Speaker 2: you attend because of fear of missing out rather than
Speaker 2: feeling that you truly add value, or trying to make
Speaker 2: sure that your kind of status in your communication channels
Speaker 2: is active and responding to chat messages continually just to
Speaker 2: show that you're online, rather than being able to focus
Speaker 2: on your highest priority tasks, and as a result of that,
Speaker 2: we end up in this state of continuous what you
Speaker 2: might call constant partial attention, rather than being able to
Speaker 2: really focus when it matters and then properly recover. So
Speaker 2: my number one tip would be to try and tackle
Speaker 2: some of that, to really think carefully about when we're
Speaker 2: falling into this pattern of pseudo work of partial attention
Speaker 2: and try and create opportunities where your focused in periods
Speaker 2: of more deliberate attention, and then you have time to recharge.
Speaker 2: And those recharge moments can be effective even if they're
Speaker 2: only five or ten minutes long. Sometimes they're called micro breaks,
Speaker 2: And to give you a practical example of that, it
Speaker 2: might be that you reduce your default meeting length down
Speaker 2: from thirty minutes to twenty five or from sixty to
Speaker 2: fifty to create these little microbreaks in between, rather than
Speaker 2: having kind of the intensity and the utility of the
Speaker 2: meeting just drift off at the end and fall into
Speaker 2: that kind of pseudo work pattern. Or maybe because the
Speaker 2: meeting's only half an hour versus sixty, instead of everyone multitasking,
Speaker 2: everyone's fully present and engaged, which creates a bit of
Speaker 2: time for people to take breaks. So it's really about
Speaker 2: being deliberate about those microbreaks, and it might be that
Speaker 2: you even put them in your calendar, if we put
Speaker 2: everything often in our current except for time to recharge.
Speaker 2: But I often encourage people to think about it like
Speaker 2: a pit stop. I've worked quite a lot in most
Speaker 2: sport in Formula one over the years, and I often
Speaker 2: talk about microbreaks like cognitive, emotional, even physical pit stops
Speaker 2: that you introduce at brief periods throughout.
Speaker 1: The day, absolutely, and if I'm managing a team, what
Speaker 1: can I do to create an environment where people are
Speaker 1: not as tempted to do these bits of productivity theater.
Speaker 2: I think the fundamental driver of a culture which enables
Speaker 2: people to work effectively and also rest efficiently is that
Speaker 2: the leader creates an environment where there's people experience psychological safety,
Speaker 2: which is underpinned by trust fundamentally, because the data would
Speaker 2: indicate that a significant portion of this productivity theater is
Speaker 2: driven by the gap between how productive employees feel and
Speaker 2: how productive leaders think their team their teams are being,
Speaker 2: and that trust gap often ends up getting filled with
Speaker 2: this productivity theater. So I think leaders need to really
Speaker 2: think carefully about whether they're creating environments where people feel
Speaker 2: supported or surveiled. And unfortunately, in remote and hybrid settings,
Speaker 2: we're seeing this trend towards time monitoring activity monitoring software,
Speaker 2: which in my view is really counterproductive because you're eroding
Speaker 2: that psychological safety. This is all part of a bigger
Speaker 2: topic around how do you truly measure productivity in knowledge
Speaker 2: work where we think for a living. I think there's
Speaker 2: a bigger conversation about perhaps needing a shift towards focusing
Speaker 2: on outcomes rather than hours worked. You know. Unfortunately, there
Speaker 2: was a survey published which suggested that many HR executives
Speaker 2: still believe that high performers work longer hours, which indicates
Speaker 2: that there's still this general belief that hours worked are
Speaker 2: a good proxy for productivity. That may be the case,
Speaker 2: but often it isn't. So as a leader, are you
Speaker 2: creating an environment of psychological safety? Are you trusting people
Speaker 2: to produce the outcomes you've asked them to produce, regardless
Speaker 2: of how long that takes. But the third thing I
Speaker 2: would say to leaders is what behaviors are you modeling?
Speaker 2: So you might choose to schedule those micro breaks in
Speaker 2: your calendar and make that visible to your team so
Speaker 2: that there's implicit permission for them to do that too.
Speaker 2: You know, John Maxwell, Leadership Gury, said decades ago, leaders
Speaker 2: reproduce who they are, and I think that is incredibly
Speaker 2: pertinent to many leadership behaviors, but perhaps particularly to this
Speaker 2: balanced between effort and recovery, where if leaders aren't visibly
Speaker 2: recovering taking these micro breaks showing that we want people
Speaker 2: to work really hard but also to rest, well, it's
Speaker 2: very unlikely that their teams are going to do that independently.
Speaker 1: So what advice do you have for I mean, a
Speaker 1: lot of my listeners are people who have kids at home,
Speaker 1: for instance, which means that time off work is not
Speaker 1: automatically going to be rejuvenating right like that. There's going
Speaker 1: to be a million things going on over the weekend.
Speaker 1: The evening is spent getting people fed, make sure they
Speaker 1: do their homework, go to bed, all that stuff. It's
Speaker 1: not exactly naturally going to be rejuvenating activity. What can
Speaker 1: people in those situations do to make time off work
Speaker 1: still feel restorative given that you still do have to
Speaker 1: go in and put in your time the next day.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's going to sound pretty obvious, but for me,
Speaker 2: it's about trying to find ways to emphasize the quality
Speaker 2: of the recovery and accepting that the quantity is probably
Speaker 2: going to be compromised. I mean, I can relate my
Speaker 2: wife and I've got two kids. They're a bit older
Speaker 2: now their teenage at where they're eleven and fourteen, we've
Speaker 2: got a teenager, but we have had many years of
Speaker 2: when you're not working outside of work, it's kind of
Speaker 2: a different kind of labor often a lot of emotional labor,
Speaker 2: if not physical labor of having to just do you stuff.
Speaker 2: So I get it. You know that the life can
Speaker 2: be tough inside and outside of work. But what I'd
Speaker 2: often encourage people to do, and certainly we've tried to do,
Speaker 2: is to find these moments where you can do at
Speaker 2: least something to restore you, even if it's only brief.
Speaker 2: So there's a really interesting framework called the Recovery Experiences framework,
Speaker 2: and it describes four different experiences which can be really
Speaker 2: helpful for restoring those resources cognitive, emotional, physical, even The
Speaker 2: first aspect is that we try and find an opportunity
Speaker 2: where a cognitive and physical load does decrease. That might
Speaker 2: involve five minutes where you literally put your feet up
Speaker 2: and change your posture. Inevitably you'll be interrupted by someone
Speaker 2: wanting something, but try and enjoy those five minutes while
Speaker 2: you're doing it. So relaxing. In contrast, some type of
Speaker 2: activity can be really helpful. Now you might not have
Speaker 2: time to go to the gym, you might have time
Speaker 2: to do something structured, but could you may be shift
Speaker 2: you can meet around so that you can integrate a
Speaker 2: ten minute walk, so park slightly further away from the
Speaker 2: office if you're driving, so you have to walk to
Speaker 2: your car. Might not be possible for everyone, but it
Speaker 2: may be possible for some integrate these micro movements, these
Speaker 2: bits of activity post work, and that can have quite
Speaker 2: a significant positive effect. The third component is regis something
Speaker 2: called mastery mastery experiences, and this describes the restorative effect
Speaker 2: of doing something ideally non work related, where we can
Speaker 2: experience a sense of progress and achievement. Now for some
Speaker 2: people that might be hobbies, but for people who are
Speaker 2: really time constrained, I can suggest have you thought about
Speaker 2: trying to find a book that you like and it
Speaker 2: could be fiction, maybe not, but many people find that
Speaker 2: even five minutes of reading each day gives them this
Speaker 2: sense of progress, and particularly it's something they're interested in
Speaker 2: that engages them. And the fourth component is control, being
Speaker 2: able to experience something where you've got a sense of
Speaker 2: autonomy over your time. So you're doing something where you're
Speaker 2: choosing to invest that time and energy in the way
Speaker 2: that you want to again, even if it's only for
Speaker 2: a short time. So we've got relaxation, we've got these
Speaker 2: mastery experiences, control experiences, and then ideally we should experience
Speaker 2: a sense of detachment where hopefully we get this sense
Speaker 2: of mental distance and there's even for a brief period
Speaker 2: an ability to experience some time away from those work
Speaker 2: related thoughts. So try and find those little opportunities in
Speaker 2: your pace work, even if it's five or ten minutes,
Speaker 2: and empersise quality over quantity, and you might find that
Speaker 2: your experience some benefits.
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Well, We're going to take a word more quick
Speaker 1: ad break and then I'll be back with more from
Speaker 1: James Hewitt. Well, we are back. I am talking with
Speaker 1: doctor James Hewitt, who is a human performance scientist and
Speaker 1: author of the book Regenerative Performance. We've been talking about
Speaker 1: ways to have little micro breaks during the workday and
Speaker 1: also maybe seese moments of rejuvenation even if we have
Speaker 1: a busy personal life, kids at home and things like that.
Speaker 1: So we often talk about productivity routines on this show,
Speaker 1: and I really enjoyed your sort of making fun a
Speaker 1: little bit of morning routines in your book that you
Speaker 1: mentioned that few morning routines survive the first contact with Monday.
Speaker 1: I'm curious if you have any morning routines now that
Speaker 1: you've do now or have tried in the past ones
Speaker 1: that are more sort of sustainable or realistic for busy people.
Speaker 2: To my morning routine. The only thing that is really
Speaker 2: pretty much non negotiable for me is that first coffee
Speaker 2: of the day and trying to be mindful and present
Speaker 2: when I'm making and drinking that coffee. So I'm a
Speaker 2: big coffee fan, and I've got a really over elaborate
Speaker 2: orange neared espresso machine at home, which I love, and
Speaker 2: one of the things I love about it is that
Speaker 2: it's a very manual and involved process. The grinding, the distributing,
Speaker 2: the grinds, the kind of the tamping, all that kind
Speaker 2: of stuff that anyone who's obsessed with espresso like I
Speaker 2: am will know. But that process of just being present,
Speaker 2: of making it, of drinking it for me has a
Speaker 2: grounding effect each morning, and obviously the caffeine helps a
Speaker 2: bit as well. And so what it encourage people to
Speaker 2: do is, if you do find that some type of
Speaker 2: morning routine is helpful, try to find the minimum viable
Speaker 2: expression of that routine, because many people do find that
Speaker 2: having something consistent is helpful. My challenge is when people
Speaker 2: believe that you need this super elaborate kind of five
Speaker 2: step routine and because the problem is it ends up,
Speaker 2: instead of supporting peak performance, which is what a lot
Speaker 2: of these influencers would say, actually ends up reinforcing fragility
Speaker 2: because when life gets in the way and you can't
Speaker 2: follow this elaborate morning routine that influencer has told you must,
Speaker 2: suddenly you start the day feeling bad that you failed.
Speaker 2: So try and find that thing for you. Maybe for
Speaker 2: you it is coffee. For other people, I know, it's
Speaker 2: like again, maybe reading a little bit of a book,
Speaker 2: might be going for a walk, might be walking the dog.
Speaker 2: But can you find a five minute practice that grounds
Speaker 2: you and provides that level of consistency so at least
Speaker 2: you start the day on your schedule, which I think
Speaker 2: is the key really, rather than feeling like you're always
Speaker 2: starting it on someone else's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, having something that you can actually succeed at
Speaker 1: doing is a good way to start the day, because
Speaker 1: there's nothing worse than starting the day feeling like a
Speaker 1: failure already and it's not even seven am. So we
Speaker 1: don't want to do that to anyone. So James I
Speaker 1: always ask my guests a question, which is, what is
Speaker 1: something you have done recently to take a day from
Speaker 1: great to awesome.
Speaker 2: So for me, it's about rediscovering the value of time blocking. Now.
Speaker 2: The funny thing is is I've realized that a lot
Speaker 2: of the things that I write about and speak about
Speaker 2: are probably related to the things I really struggle with.
Speaker 2: And a lot of people think I'm a really organized person,
Speaker 2: and I really aspire to be, but I think my
Speaker 2: default state is actually quite chaotic, and so I've had
Speaker 2: to create all these routines and systems and processes to
Speaker 2: try and deal with my underlying chaos. And I fell
Speaker 2: out their habit of something that I always used to do,
Speaker 2: which was to plan my day and look at her
Speaker 2: to do list in a very action oriented way and
Speaker 2: give myself specific time blocks for the things that I
Speaker 2: needed to do. And it was because ironically I had
Speaker 2: so much to do. It felt overwhelming that I felt
Speaker 2: like I didn't have time to do that little planning process,
Speaker 2: which is just ridiculous because it's probably when I most
Speaker 2: need to do it. But I've reintroduced that and it
Speaker 2: not only has it made me feel calmer and more
Speaker 2: in control, it's actually helped me stay focused because these
Speaker 2: time blocks giving myself a target I need to achieve
Speaker 2: X in fifteen minutes helps me to avoid getting distracted
Speaker 2: and pulled into other things. So that has helped me
Speaker 2: shift from a good day, which is I get a
Speaker 2: few things done, to a great day, which is not
Speaker 2: only do I get things done, I do it in
Speaker 2: a way that feels efficient, effective, decisive, focused, and I've
Speaker 2: got time for other things outside of that as well.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, time spent planning is almost always returned back to
Speaker 1: you in terms of making a return on the investment there.
Speaker 1: So what are you looking forward to right now?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm about to go into my final block of
Speaker 2: travel for the year and I've got a refund trip
Speaker 2: coming up to the States. I spent an increasing amount
Speaker 2: of time in the US, even though I'm based in
Speaker 2: the UK, speaking at events there. So I'm going to
Speaker 2: be over in Nashville in a few weeks and then
Speaker 2: finally in Detroit, and I'm really looking forward to that trip.
Speaker 2: I absolutely love speaking. There's some great clients of speaking
Speaker 2: with there, so that's going to be fun to end
Speaker 2: the year with some great people and some really fun events.
Speaker 1: Yes, ended on a high note for sure. So James,
Speaker 1: where can people find you?
Speaker 2: So my website Doctor Jane Sewit dot com is a
Speaker 2: good place to begin typing the doctor. It's important because
Speaker 2: there was a guy called James Hewett who had an
Speaker 2: affair with Princess Diana and if you just type that's
Speaker 2: not me, so that's a good place. And then also
Speaker 2: I'm quite active on LinkedIn and you can find me
Speaker 2: there and increasingly on Instagram as well, behind the scenes
Speaker 2: and stuff.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, James, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Thank you to everyone for listening. If you have feedback
Speaker 1: about this or any other episode, you can always reach
Speaker 1: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. And in
Speaker 1: the meantime, this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's
Speaker 1: to making the most of our time. Thanks for listening
Speaker 1: to Before Breakfast. If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback,
Speaker 1: you can reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com.
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