WEBVTT - Moving Beyond Us Vs. Them w/ Brené Brown 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:05.559 Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:12.399 Audio in partnership with my Heart Radio. Welcome to the 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:17.480 Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. I am an actress, producer, storyteller, 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:21.919 seecret of truth, justice, love and empathy. Now I wanted 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:25.040 to have a podcast. You have conversations similar to the 0:00:25.040 --> 0:00:28.480 ones I'm having in private and I'm not seeing happen publicly. 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.920 We are talking everything from dating while trans dating while 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.440 a black woman, dating while forty, a lot of dating, 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:42.200 but also trauma, resilience, beauty standards and social capital, Beyonce, 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:46.199 you name it. Now, I want this podcast to amplify 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.640 certain subjects, topics and folks who are doing work that 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:53.840 makes me think, challenges or inspires me. Being involved in 0:00:53.960 --> 0:00:58.400 engaged dialogue with another thinking human being has raised my consciousness, 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:03.000 lifted my spirits, and shifted my molecules. Years ago, a 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:05.360 therapist of mine said to me in our very first 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.240 therapy session that the only thing that we can control 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.840 as individuals is our own perception and our own behavior. 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:16.080 That's it. That's all we can control, our perception and 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.440 our behavior. It is my hope that the Laverne Cock 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:23.800 Show is a place, a space that foster's perspective that 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.000 might inspire new behavior in each of us that gets 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:30.280 us closer to becoming the very best version of ourselves. 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:37.160 Dehumanization is the birthplace of every genocide recorded through history. 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:38.960 If you take a group of people that are different 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:42.520 than you, that you fear, and you remove human qualities 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:46.720 from them, it gives humans a capacity for violence towards them, 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:51.600 which actually we're not neurobiologically wired two maim, rape, hurt, 0:01:51.680 --> 0:01:54.480 and kill other humans. So in order to do that, 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:57.680 we have to go through a system of de humanization. 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:01.080 And then once you strip people of your humanity, you're 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:05.640 able to do all kinds of things to folks. On 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:08.040 this episode, we are talking about how we can move 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:12.200 away from us versus them, the pervasive division that plagues 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:16.560 our country right now. It has been so painful for 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:20.840 me watching not only how divided we are, but how 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.839 we demonize and dehumanize folks who might disagree with us 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:30.359 around some political issue. And so my guest today talks 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:35.680 about rehumanization. She's someone whose work has shaped so much 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:39.640 of my thinking and giving me so many tools to 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.799 live a more wholehearted life. Of course, I'm talking about 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:47.320 the incomparable Dr Burne Brown. Burnde A. Brown has described 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:52.680 herself as a researcher, storyteller. She studies courage, vulnerability, shame, 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.880 and empathy. She's authored five number one New York Times bestsellers. 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.959 She has a Netflix special. She is a shame research 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.600 here with a Netflix special. Honey, Yes, she is so badass. 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.280 And she is also the host of two different podcast 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.880 Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead. When I thought about 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.000 having a conversation about how divided we are as a 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:16.600 nation and moving beyond that division, I knew I wanted 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:19.920 to have that conversation with Renee. By the way, just 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:23.120 for context, we recorded this after the election in November. 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:32.040 Please enjoy my conversation with Dr Bryne Brown. Hello, Dr 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.920 Brine Brown, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. How 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:38.560 are you doing today? I am you know, I got 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:40.520 to see you twice this week, so it is just 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.560 the best week of my life. I'm doing great. Uh. 0:03:43.840 --> 0:03:46.440 I'm excited to be with you and interested to see 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:50.360 where our conversation goes. I am as well. I have 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:55.240 a ton of notes and you know me, I do 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.360 we have this We have this mutual friend her talk 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:04.240 and he's like, I've never seen you anxious about a 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:08.800 podcast you do. And I'm like, she knows my work 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:14.040 better than I do. This is this is interesting. So 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:20.239 I wanted to start with where you start in your book, 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:22.719 dare to lead with the Marcus Aurelius quote, which what 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:25.760 stands in the way becomes the way. And the reason 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.400 I want to start there is because um, in my 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:31.039 in the ways in which I armor up the things 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:33.920 that keep me in the way of vulnerability, which is 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:40.400 a key component of your work. You define vulnerability as risk, uncertainty, 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:44.159 and emotional exposure. And oh my god, the deep levels 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:49.360 of which I use perfectionism as armor. It's so deep. 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.640 So I'm trying to actually let go of perfectionism as 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.200 I have this conversation. I'm trying to take the armor away. 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:58.359 But I want to start by asking you what is 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:02.000 getting in the way right now for you around vulnerability 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:06.880 and courage that needs to become the way. So note 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:10.640 to self. She is not going to throw any softball questions. Okay, 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:14.360 we're just starting. We're we're just starting right there. I mean, yeah, 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:19.200 I'm sorry, Yes, it's us, it's us. Right. So, Um, 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:21.360 what I noticed is that you're in the the arena 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.760 like hardcore right now, you have two podcast unlocking us 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:28.680 dare to Lead. You are in the arena in a 0:05:28.760 --> 0:05:34.440 way where you're having really uncomfortable conversations around race as 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:37.680 a white person, which I think is so crucially important. 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:42.760 And I just imagine that that has to be so 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:49.040 thorny and so constantly vulnerable and constantly like getting your 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:50.960 ass handed to you right that, Like, you're in the 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.359 arena in a way that I don't even feel like 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:56.640 I can even muster being in right now. I look 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:58.640 and I'm just like, oh my god, how she doing this? 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:01.839 So I guess there's the question of how you in 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:03.760 the arena the way you are right now? And then 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:05.920 like how are you doing with all of this, Like 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:09.480 with all the challenges everything that you have going on. 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:11.560 You've taken on so much in the work and the 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:16.279 research and building your business and this leadership place. What girl, 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:22.120 what's going on? I think something feels weird for me 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:24.680 right now. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:30.719 I I talk so much about taking the armor off 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.680 and saying what you believe, even when your voice shakes. 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.280 I love that quote, and I'm doing it and there 0:06:38.320 --> 0:06:41.720 are consequences. There's for sure, I have experienced consequences for 0:06:41.839 --> 0:06:45.719 doing it. But and I always get flagged when I 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:47.279 start thinking things like, well, I don't give a ship 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.040 when anyone thinks because you know we're neurobiologically, why or 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:54.560 to care what people think? Right? I guess I feel 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:59.400 like I'm at a point in my life where if 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:05.200 you need to leave or unfollowed or do your thing, 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.440 because we're at a fork in the road and I'm 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.520 taking one path and you're taking another, and you need 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:16.440 something else from me, go with God, like I wish 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.040 you a lot of luck. I mean, I think you know, 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:21.280 there are a lot of white women who follow me 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.280 who have unfollowed me. We've had a lot of that, 0:07:24.440 --> 0:07:27.920 you know. When I interviewed Biden for the podcast, when 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:32.040 I put my support behind the Biden Harris ticket, when 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.920 I talked about the pervasive dehumanization from the Trump administration 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.320 and how regardless of politics, I can't abide by it. 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:42.320 The fact that I have kind of walked into very 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:46.920 hard conversations about race and and also really specific conversations 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:51.800 about the ongoing betrayal of Black women by white women. 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:59.120 I think it's if I can't have an opinion because 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.440 you want me to just shut up and keep writing 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:05.880 books that help you, then you don't have a deep 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:10.640 understanding of my work. Like and I've never been here before, Laverne, 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:14.440 I've never been here. I've been tentative. But I think 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:18.400 there's a hundred possibility that we can both have been 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:22.760 shaped and moved by my research and have very different 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:27.640 political opinions. There is zero percent possibility that you could 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:29.920 understand my work and think I'm going to shut up 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:36.439 because I'm making you uncomfortable. Absolutely, I just floored by 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:39.320 hearing you say that you've had so many white women 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:43.480 on follow you and feel betrayed on a certain level. 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:45.440 And I'm just thinking it has to be that has 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:49.079 to be hard. I mean, it has to be insanely difficult. 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:50.800 But there's a few things that you said. I mean, 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:55.080 I think the ongoing betrayal that black women feel from 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.800 white women, can I just can we just can we 0:08:57.840 --> 0:08:59.760 go there right a little bit? Because I think that 0:09:00.200 --> 0:09:03.439 piece we saw that you know, so many white women 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.560 again voted for you know, forty five and a lot 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:08.800 of black women have had a lot to say about 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:10.920 that Black folks in general. We've talked to a lot 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:14.000 of black women publicly. It's been really beautiful. Where are 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:17.160 you with all that? Right now? So I think both 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:20.160 questions are they're related. I really I don't know how 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:22.520 I got here. I really don't. I don't. I need 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:28.600 to probably understand it better. I can't betray me first anymore. 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:37.160 I have to rank order belonging to myself before making 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:39.600 you pleased with me. And they're not. You know, they're 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:41.280 not all white women. Of course I'm a white woman, 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:43.520 like they're not all white women. But but that's the 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.400 majority of folks who have not followed me. That's the 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:48.160 majority of folks who have sent me pictures burning my books, 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:54.240 you know. And yeah, and it's I think it pisces 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:56.440 me off because I think the language I hear a 0:09:56.480 --> 0:10:02.720 lot is you disappointed me. You're such a disappointment. You 0:10:02.840 --> 0:10:05.480 really let me down. Why do they say, is it 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.720 clear why they're disappointed? Because you know, because you change 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:10.599 my life, or you got me through my divorce, or 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.800 you help my my kid in rehab. And now you 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:16.800 have to go blab in your mouth about politics. And 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:22.440 so I think that idea that you've disappointed me and 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.319 what that had the potential to do to me in 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:28.520 my life for decades. You know, my response to it 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:32.760 maybe a year ago was fuck you, And my response 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:39.120 to it now is I don't care m that I 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:43.640 disappointed you, because I'm not here to please you. And 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:47.360 so the fact that you think I'm here to please 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:53.880 you is exactly the white woman problem. Oh speak speak. 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:58.040 There's a very deep complexity to the way many of 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:02.320 us as white women, are raised, which is you will 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:09.320 never ever, you will never sees real power over your body, 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.600 over your future, over your mind. You'll never seize it. 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:18.079 So the best thing that you can do is catch 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:21.760 the drippings of the men who have it and learn 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:25.960 how to be the right kind of woman to access 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:30.319 the power from them. And your first call to duty 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.760 is to protect them at all costs, because if that 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.040 power is not dripping off them, where do you think 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.880 you're going to catch it? And we're really raised that way, 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.160 I mean, and it's not sometimes it's subtle, but sometimes 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.839 it's really not subtle. It's you know, stay than be smart, 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:49.160 but not smarter than you know. I remember, just if 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:53.640 you'll indulge me a story from growing up. I remember, 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:55.720 you know, I grew up in a tough family, tough 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.240 Texas family. I grew up hunting and fishing and throwing 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:05.040 a football. And I remember this awkward year where I 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:09.640 kind of started developing and I could throw the football 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:12.000 far and I could spit far, and I was and 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:14.800 I still am, an amazing shot, and I can fish 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:17.760 like your life depended on it. And I remember all 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.920 of a sudden this disease where I could do that 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.920 better than some of the boys my age. And then 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:26.720 all of a sudden, I was sent in the house 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:31.800 to get supper ready because you know, in the words 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.360 of my father and his father and his father, now sis, 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.120 don't get sideways here, you know, let these boys throw 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:45.120 that ball. And so I remember saying, oh, now the 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.160 focus is how to set the table and make sure 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.320 your chicken salad has all white meat in it, and 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.800 you chopped the carrots a certain way or the salary 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.840 a certain way. And that's our upbringing. And so I 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:00.920 think what you see at the polls is is you 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.040 know how they say, like racist white people in the 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.520 United States will sign their own death certificates, They will 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:12.760 vote for policies that crush them no safety nets, no 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:19.320 health care before they organize and fight for things that 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:23.240 they deserve because they feel too much like entitlements. And 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:27.480 those are folks of color, right, women have that same 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.760 upbringing I think around protect the men with the power. 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:35.960 It's your only access to it. And and let me 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:39.640 let me tell you this part. And you've mastered the 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:45.200 art of getting that power from men. M The interesting 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.240 thing about it that women can use the capital of beauty, right, 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:50.800 that these things have a shelf life. That's so often 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.400 the things that we as women are told to rely 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.400 upon to hook a man into. You know, we get 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.120 older and gain weight or we just get older. And 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:02.200 and what's so that is if that is what we've 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:06.079 based our existence on as women of all races, that 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.400 when the rug is sort of pulled out from under us, 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.640 it's not always, but it often is. Right, we found 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.520 out our husband is cheating, We find out like we 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:19.480 don't have that same capital anymore because we've capitulated to 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.480 patriarchy basically and white supremacy, and they're very much connected. 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.640 But so brilliant about what you said is that relationship 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:30.320 between white supremacy and patriarchy and capitalism isn't there too. 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:32.560 Oh yeah, I mean I don't think you can extract 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:34.600 I mean, let's as you would say, go bell hooks 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.840 on this. I don't think you can extract capitalism because 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.320 I think part of the contract is, you know, and 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:46.360 I'm talking about very traditional relationships. I'm talking about traditional patriarchal, 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:52.400 sexist there's a financial contract. I stay young and fit, 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.479 and you make the money. And what ends up happening 0:14:56.840 --> 0:15:00.320 is that contract. Man, It's a Faustian bargain. It is 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:04.240 a deal with the devil himself, you know. But I 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:08.000 think that's what you see with white female support. Um. 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:12.720 And I want to separate people of color from conversations 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.320 about being black in America because I think there is 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:21.520 so much anti blackness within communities of color outside speak 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:28.080 speak And so I do think that white women are 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:30.840 I want to I wanna be really careful with my 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:36.120 words here. If if white men are the banking system 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.760 for white supremacy, white women are the culture police of 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:47.120 white supremacy, Explain, Explain, it's the performative cry and quiver 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:53.640 when confronted with a black man. It's the mammification of 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:56.160 black women. Oh can you can I crawl in your lap? 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.160 And you can, you know, stroke my hair and braid 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:04.080 it and save me. They're real cultural police around maintaining 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:10.560 a system. It's killing them, killing us. Oh yeah, So 0:16:10.680 --> 0:16:13.720 what I would love to do, because the empathetic piece 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:19.000 right around these white women, what would be our generous 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.080 take on what is going on there? First of all, 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:26.360 what is what is so beautiful about what the uncertain 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:28.760 place that you seem to feel like you're in now 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:32.200 is that it feels like the embodiment of being the wilderness. 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.720 For those who know Braving the Wilderness and give examples 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.040 in that book, and you talk about having the courage 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:40.760 of your values, it feels like you're right in the 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:44.080 middle of what it means to be the wilderness, to 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:49.440 be in that place where you have rejected. If you're 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:51.800 not with us, you're against us, and you are really 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:55.600 in the space of belonging to yourself and the price 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:57.600 is high that the reward is great. You know, my 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:01.480 angelaric moment that that you quote in Raving the Wilderness. 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:03.520 I guess I just want to sort of affirm that 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:07.520 from my perspective, that that's what it feels like. And 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.480 I guess shivers about it because this is the difficult 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:14.800 work that we must do. But then going to that 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.920 generous place, to that empathetic place for white women. Let's 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:19.679 just keep talking about white women for now, I guess. 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:22.560 But is it the thing of trying to fit in 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:26.040 this sort of poe belonging, because you know, we can 0:17:26.040 --> 0:17:29.040 talk about the theoretical aligning with power, and you know 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:31.359 black folks do it too, right, Black folks will align 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.520 with white supremacies, will align with certain power structures. It's 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:36.840 sort of a way to armor up into self protect 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.360 what what's at the core? Because I think that if 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:42.520 we were not going to be able to move past 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.480 us versus them, how divide it we are if we 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:49.119 can't sort of begin to parse out the psychology of 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:51.320 what is going on at the core of all this. 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.239 And I've thought it's maybe it's fear, But what do 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:57.200 you think is at the heart of this? So first 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.080 let me just say that I I don't know what's 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.440 going on with me right now, and so you're analysis 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.240 of it. I've always told you, how what have I 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:06.840 told you that it would be the best role you 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:08.680 could ever play in a million years? What would you 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:10.479 be playing? Do you remember what I told you? I 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:12.600 don't remember. What did you say? What did you say? 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:17.160 You should play a therapist? Very good. Let you get 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:19.960 that in the universe. Now. I remember. So I felt 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:23.480 therapized by you a little bit, because I do think 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:25.480 there's some truth and I've been trying to figure out 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.520 where I am right now. I think what's happened Lavern is. 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.080 I think I've made peace with the wilderness. And I 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.320 think that there have been times in my life that 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.119 I would brave the wilderness and then I'd come back 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.120 to my bunk or belonging. And now I've just set 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:42.320 up camp here. This is actually going to be my life. 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:46.320 And you know what, it's great. It's like Coachella out here. 0:18:46.600 --> 0:18:49.560 All all the weirdos are out here. When we talk 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.440 about the white women who support Trump, or we talked 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.320 about that, and Trump is not the problem to me 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:59.440 at all. Trump is the manifestation of a problem, right, Yeah. 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:01.080 And I have to tell you, to be honest with you, 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.920 if people knew my politics, really knew them, I'm much 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:07.200 more moderate than most people think, and the far left 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:08.919 take me on as much as the far right, to 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.399 be honest, So what I would say is, when we 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:16.800 talk about those white women. It is ultimately, to me 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:23.520 about two things. It is about belonging, the veracity at 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:26.560 which the like I don't even know how to use 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:32.040 the words like, the force at which people will come 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:36.640 at you in this cohort if you do not tow 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.760 the line. It's not just that they will come after 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.320 you and push you out. They will come after your husband, 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:48.760 your wife, your kids. They will come for you because 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:52.879 you are tipping something sacred. And so it is about 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:59.840 belonging versus fitting in. And it is about a d 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:06.560 socialization that on purpose does not involve the interrogation of power, 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.879 because you have to foster some sort of critique of 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:15.200 the status quo, and some people just aren't built for that. 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.680 Let's take a short break. When we come back, let's 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.360 talk about expectations and how they keep us from living authentically. 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:36.080 Welcome back. Burnet Brown says that stories are data with 0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:38.639 the soul. So here's a little bit of data from 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:43.280 my personal life with a lot of soul. I'm spending 0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:45.960 a conversation with a man that I've known for twelve 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:47.840 years now, and we dated like twelve years ago, and 0:20:47.920 --> 0:20:50.480 we were sitting here in my apartment like a month 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:54.200 or so ago and talking about some very difficult stuff actually, 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:58.280 and he's been dating trans women since like twenty seven 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:01.159 years of dating trans women. If some people in his life, no, 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.200 but most people don't know. And we were talking about 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.159 like how his dad was a cop, and you know, 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:08.800 he's like, I can't let people know that I like 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.280 trans women because I was the firstborn son and there 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:15.160 were all these expectations around masculinity, were all these things 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:18.560 where I was just like, but you have known trans 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.119 women for twenty seven years. So many of us for 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:23.720 decades have had the courage to be ourselves. We've lost 0:21:23.760 --> 0:21:27.880 our families, lost friends, and he's seen this. But then 0:21:27.960 --> 0:21:32.240 he's so afraid of losing the approval of his father, 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.119 having people judge him. I just didn't even get it. 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:37.399 But then I was thinking, he just has never questioned 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:40.240 the status quo. He's never been in a space I 0:21:40.280 --> 0:21:45.960 think because he is white and male. But the deep 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:48.879 sad part of it is that at this point in 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:52.520 his life, there were all these expectations around who he 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:54.720 was supposed to be and it has not worked out. 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:57.880 He doesn't have the money that he wanted to have, 0:21:58.480 --> 0:22:01.080 and he's you know, saying, hasn't a kids, and so 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:03.200 what was so sad to me is that he kind 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:08.400 of his toe this line and not really fully belonged 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.880 to himself. And I think, and sometimes those people who 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:15.440 are willing to question the system and question the expectations, 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:18.160 I guess about who they're supposed to be. Maybe those 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:23.240 people are more able to brave the wilderness. Thinking about 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:25.200 like where you are right now, and I'm just thinking 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:27.960 about people burning your books. I can't even imagine how 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:30.440 that must feel. And then I think about how I've 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:33.280 been in the wilderness, like my whole life in a way, 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:36.600 because I've made choices, right, I've made choices that have 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:41.680 I've always been an outsider and that's just been my life. 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:43.760 But a lot of people aren't willing to do that. 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:46.320 It's scary to be in the wilderness, and it's it's 0:22:46.320 --> 0:22:50.600 scary to go alone. It's scary to question authority. Yes, 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:55.080 because look, here's the thing, Like, is it sad when 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:56.880 someone sends me a picture of you know, the gifts 0:22:56.920 --> 0:22:59.200 of imperfection and flames? It did take my breath away 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:01.640 a little bit, But after I thought about it, I'm like, now, 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:03.400 I can you know, join the list of great band 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:07.919 booked writers. You know, that's great, But think about the 0:23:08.119 --> 0:23:16.800 privilege of choosing the wilderness versus being shoved in it 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:23.520 because of your gender identity, or your race or a 0:23:23.640 --> 0:23:29.280 million other reasons. So why interrogate power if what's at 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:35.320 risk is your privilege? Absolutely right. So if I'm going 0:23:35.359 --> 0:23:40.240 to interrogate power to better understand my experience on the margins, 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:42.840 that's one thing. But you're going to ask me to 0:23:42.880 --> 0:23:47.080 walk into the wilderness and interrogate power, and I got 0:23:47.119 --> 0:23:52.600 nothing but shipped to lose unless I believe existentially in 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:56.960 a better world, our justice. I think you have to 0:23:56.960 --> 0:23:59.120 believe in those things. I mean, why else would someone 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:02.720 do it? Right? Absolutely? You know. I have a group 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:05.480 of girlfriends called the COTS, the Council of Trans Sistors, 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:08.439 And we were hanging out and one of my girlfriends, 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:11.800 she's a white trans woman and was raised very privileged. 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:13.679 She was assigned mail at birth and was told that 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:16.520 she could conquer the world and rule the world. And 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:20.720 she was talking about sort of feeling a loss of 0:24:20.800 --> 0:24:25.280 that sort of care free, you know, assumed male sort 0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:27.800 of privilege that she had. And it was me and 0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:30.960 two other black trans women, three of us black trans 0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:33.280 women I hadn't. We were like, do you do you 0:24:33.320 --> 0:24:36.800 have a sense of We had no. There was absolutely 0:24:36.840 --> 0:24:40.280 no point of reference because I never felt and this 0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:42.480