1 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:05,559 Speaker 1: Welcome to The Laverne Cox Show, a production of Shondaland 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:12,399 Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with my Heart Radio. Welcome to the 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: Laverne Cox Show. I'm Laverne Cox. I am an actress, producer, storyteller, 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: seecret of truth, justice, love and empathy. Now I wanted 5 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: to have a podcast. You have conversations similar to the 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: ones I'm having in private and I'm not seeing happen publicly. 7 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: We are talking everything from dating while trans dating while 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: a black woman, dating while forty, a lot of dating, 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: but also trauma, resilience, beauty standards and social capital, Beyonce, 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: you name it. Now, I want this podcast to amplify 11 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: certain subjects, topics and folks who are doing work that 12 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: makes me think, challenges or inspires me. Being involved in 13 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: engaged dialogue with another thinking human being has raised my consciousness, 14 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: lifted my spirits, and shifted my molecules. Years ago, a 15 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: therapist of mine said to me in our very first 16 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: therapy session that the only thing that we can control 17 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: as individuals is our own perception and our own behavior. 18 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: That's it. That's all we can control, our perception and 19 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: our behavior. It is my hope that the Laverne Cock 20 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: Show is a place, a space that foster's perspective that 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: might inspire new behavior in each of us that gets 22 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: us closer to becoming the very best version of ourselves. 23 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: Dehumanization is the birthplace of every genocide recorded through history. 24 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: If you take a group of people that are different 25 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: than you, that you fear, and you remove human qualities 26 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: from them, it gives humans a capacity for violence towards them, 27 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: which actually we're not neurobiologically wired two maim, rape, hurt, 28 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: and kill other humans. So in order to do that, 29 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: we have to go through a system of de humanization. 30 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: And then once you strip people of your humanity, you're 31 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: able to do all kinds of things to folks. On 32 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: this episode, we are talking about how we can move 33 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: away from us versus them, the pervasive division that plagues 34 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: our country right now. It has been so painful for 35 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: me watching not only how divided we are, but how 36 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,839 Speaker 1: we demonize and dehumanize folks who might disagree with us 37 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: around some political issue. And so my guest today talks 38 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: about rehumanization. She's someone whose work has shaped so much 39 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: of my thinking and giving me so many tools to 40 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 1: live a more wholehearted life. Of course, I'm talking about 41 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 1: the incomparable Dr Burne Brown. Burnde A. Brown has described 42 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: herself as a researcher, storyteller. She studies courage, vulnerability, shame, 43 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: and empathy. She's authored five number one New York Times bestsellers. 44 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,959 Speaker 1: She has a Netflix special. She is a shame research 45 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: here with a Netflix special. Honey, Yes, she is so badass. 46 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: And she is also the host of two different podcast 47 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: Unlocking Us and Dare to Lead. When I thought about 48 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: having a conversation about how divided we are as a 49 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: nation and moving beyond that division, I knew I wanted 50 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: to have that conversation with Renee. By the way, just 51 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: for context, we recorded this after the election in November. 52 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: Please enjoy my conversation with Dr Bryne Brown. Hello, Dr 53 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: Brine Brown, and welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. How 54 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: are you doing today? I am you know, I got 55 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: to see you twice this week, so it is just 56 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: the best week of my life. I'm doing great. Uh. 57 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: I'm excited to be with you and interested to see 58 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: where our conversation goes. I am as well. I have 59 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 1: a ton of notes and you know me, I do 60 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: we have this We have this mutual friend her talk 61 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: and he's like, I've never seen you anxious about a 62 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: podcast you do. And I'm like, she knows my work 63 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: better than I do. This is this is interesting. So 64 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:20,239 Speaker 1: I wanted to start with where you start in your book, 65 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 1: dare to lead with the Marcus Aurelius quote, which what 66 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: stands in the way becomes the way. And the reason 67 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: I want to start there is because um, in my 68 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: in the ways in which I armor up the things 69 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: that keep me in the way of vulnerability, which is 70 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: a key component of your work. You define vulnerability as risk, uncertainty, 71 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: and emotional exposure. And oh my god, the deep levels 72 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: of which I use perfectionism as armor. It's so deep. 73 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: So I'm trying to actually let go of perfectionism as 74 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: I have this conversation. I'm trying to take the armor away. 75 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: But I want to start by asking you what is 76 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: getting in the way right now for you around vulnerability 77 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: and courage that needs to become the way. So note 78 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: to self. She is not going to throw any softball questions. Okay, 79 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: we're just starting. We're we're just starting right there. I mean, yeah, 80 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Yes, it's us, it's us. Right. So, Um, 81 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: what I noticed is that you're in the the arena 82 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: like hardcore right now, you have two podcast unlocking us 83 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: dare to Lead. You are in the arena in a 84 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: way where you're having really uncomfortable conversations around race as 85 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: a white person, which I think is so crucially important. 86 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: And I just imagine that that has to be so 87 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: thorny and so constantly vulnerable and constantly like getting your 88 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: ass handed to you right that, Like, you're in the 89 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 1: arena in a way that I don't even feel like 90 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: I can even muster being in right now. I look 91 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: and I'm just like, oh my god, how she doing this? 92 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: So I guess there's the question of how you in 93 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: the arena the way you are right now? And then 94 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: like how are you doing with all of this, Like 95 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: with all the challenges everything that you have going on. 96 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 1: You've taken on so much in the work and the 97 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: research and building your business and this leadership place. What girl, 98 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: what's going on? I think something feels weird for me 99 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: right now. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. 100 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: I I talk so much about taking the armor off 101 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: and saying what you believe, even when your voice shakes. 102 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: I love that quote, and I'm doing it and there 103 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: are consequences. There's for sure, I have experienced consequences for 104 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: doing it. But and I always get flagged when I 105 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 1: start thinking things like, well, I don't give a ship 106 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: when anyone thinks because you know we're neurobiologically, why or 107 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: to care what people think? Right? I guess I feel 108 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: like I'm at a point in my life where if 109 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: you need to leave or unfollowed or do your thing, 110 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: because we're at a fork in the road and I'm 111 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: taking one path and you're taking another, and you need 112 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: something else from me, go with God, like I wish 113 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: you a lot of luck. I mean, I think you know, 114 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: there are a lot of white women who follow me 115 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: who have unfollowed me. We've had a lot of that, 116 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: you know. When I interviewed Biden for the podcast, when 117 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: I put my support behind the Biden Harris ticket, when 118 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: I talked about the pervasive dehumanization from the Trump administration 119 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: and how regardless of politics, I can't abide by it. 120 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: The fact that I have kind of walked into very 121 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: hard conversations about race and and also really specific conversations 122 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: about the ongoing betrayal of Black women by white women. 123 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: I think it's if I can't have an opinion because 124 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: you want me to just shut up and keep writing 125 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: books that help you, then you don't have a deep 126 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: understanding of my work. Like and I've never been here before, Laverne, 127 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: I've never been here. I've been tentative. But I think 128 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: there's a hundred possibility that we can both have been 129 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: shaped and moved by my research and have very different 130 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: political opinions. There is zero percent possibility that you could 131 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: understand my work and think I'm going to shut up 132 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 1: because I'm making you uncomfortable. Absolutely, I just floored by 133 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: hearing you say that you've had so many white women 134 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: on follow you and feel betrayed on a certain level. 135 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: And I'm just thinking it has to be that has 136 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: to be hard. I mean, it has to be insanely difficult. 137 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: But there's a few things that you said. I mean, 138 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,080 Speaker 1: I think the ongoing betrayal that black women feel from 139 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: white women, can I just can we just can we 140 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: go there right a little bit? Because I think that 141 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: piece we saw that you know, so many white women 142 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: again voted for you know, forty five and a lot 143 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: of black women have had a lot to say about 144 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: that Black folks in general. We've talked to a lot 145 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: of black women publicly. It's been really beautiful. Where are 146 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: you with all that? Right now? So I think both 147 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: questions are they're related. I really I don't know how 148 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 1: I got here. I really don't. I don't. I need 149 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: to probably understand it better. I can't betray me first anymore. 150 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: I have to rank order belonging to myself before making 151 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: you pleased with me. And they're not. You know, they're 152 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 1: not all white women. Of course I'm a white woman, 153 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 1: like they're not all white women. But but that's the 154 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: majority of folks who have not followed me. That's the 155 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: majority of folks who have sent me pictures burning my books, 156 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: you know. And yeah, and it's I think it pisces 157 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: me off because I think the language I hear a 158 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: lot is you disappointed me. You're such a disappointment. You 159 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: really let me down. Why do they say, is it 160 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: clear why they're disappointed? Because you know, because you change 161 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:10,599 Speaker 1: my life, or you got me through my divorce, or 162 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: you help my my kid in rehab. And now you 163 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: have to go blab in your mouth about politics. And 164 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: so I think that idea that you've disappointed me and 165 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,319 Speaker 1: what that had the potential to do to me in 166 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: my life for decades. You know, my response to it 167 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: maybe a year ago was fuck you, And my response 168 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: to it now is I don't care m that I 169 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: disappointed you, because I'm not here to please you. And 170 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: so the fact that you think I'm here to please 171 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: you is exactly the white woman problem. Oh speak speak. 172 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: There's a very deep complexity to the way many of 173 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,320 Speaker 1: us as white women, are raised, which is you will 174 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 1: never ever, you will never sees real power over your body, 175 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: over your future, over your mind. You'll never seize it. 176 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:18,079 Speaker 1: So the best thing that you can do is catch 177 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: the drippings of the men who have it and learn 178 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 1: how to be the right kind of woman to access 179 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: the power from them. And your first call to duty 180 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: is to protect them at all costs, because if that 181 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: power is not dripping off them, where do you think 182 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: you're going to catch it? And we're really raised that way, 183 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: I mean, and it's not sometimes it's subtle, but sometimes 184 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,839 Speaker 1: it's really not subtle. It's you know, stay than be smart, 185 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: but not smarter than you know. I remember, just if 186 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: you'll indulge me a story from growing up. I remember, 187 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: you know, I grew up in a tough family, tough 188 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 1: Texas family. I grew up hunting and fishing and throwing 189 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: a football. And I remember this awkward year where I 190 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: kind of started developing and I could throw the football 191 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: far and I could spit far, and I was and 192 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: I still am, an amazing shot, and I can fish 193 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: like your life depended on it. And I remember all 194 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: of a sudden this disease where I could do that 195 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: better than some of the boys my age. And then 196 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:26,720 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I was sent in the house 197 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: to get supper ready because you know, in the words 198 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: of my father and his father and his father, now sis, 199 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: don't get sideways here, you know, let these boys throw 200 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: that ball. And so I remember saying, oh, now the 201 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: focus is how to set the table and make sure 202 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: your chicken salad has all white meat in it, and 203 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: you chopped the carrots a certain way or the salary 204 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: a certain way. And that's our upbringing. And so I 205 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: think what you see at the polls is is you 206 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: know how they say, like racist white people in the 207 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: United States will sign their own death certificates, They will 208 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: vote for policies that crush them no safety nets, no 209 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: health care before they organize and fight for things that 210 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: they deserve because they feel too much like entitlements. And 211 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: those are folks of color, right, women have that same 212 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: upbringing I think around protect the men with the power. 213 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: It's your only access to it. And and let me 214 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 1: let me tell you this part. And you've mastered the 215 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: art of getting that power from men. M The interesting 216 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: thing about it that women can use the capital of beauty, right, 217 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: that these things have a shelf life. That's so often 218 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: the things that we as women are told to rely 219 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: upon to hook a man into. You know, we get 220 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: older and gain weight or we just get older. And 221 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: and what's so that is if that is what we've 222 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,079 Speaker 1: based our existence on as women of all races, that 223 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: when the rug is sort of pulled out from under us, 224 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: it's not always, but it often is. Right, we found 225 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: out our husband is cheating, We find out like we 226 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: don't have that same capital anymore because we've capitulated to 227 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: patriarchy basically and white supremacy, and they're very much connected. 228 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: But so brilliant about what you said is that relationship 229 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: between white supremacy and patriarchy and capitalism isn't there too. 230 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean I don't think you can extract 231 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: I mean, let's as you would say, go bell hooks 232 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: on this. I don't think you can extract capitalism because 233 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: I think part of the contract is, you know, and 234 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: I'm talking about very traditional relationships. I'm talking about traditional patriarchal, 235 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: sexist there's a financial contract. I stay young and fit, 236 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,479 Speaker 1: and you make the money. And what ends up happening 237 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: is that contract. Man, It's a Faustian bargain. It is 238 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: a deal with the devil himself, you know. But I 239 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: think that's what you see with white female support. Um. 240 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: And I want to separate people of color from conversations 241 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: about being black in America because I think there is 242 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: so much anti blackness within communities of color outside speak 243 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: speak And so I do think that white women are 244 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: I want to I wanna be really careful with my 245 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: words here. If if white men are the banking system 246 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: for white supremacy, white women are the culture police of 247 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: white supremacy, Explain, Explain, it's the performative cry and quiver 248 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: when confronted with a black man. It's the mammification of 249 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: black women. Oh can you can I crawl in your lap? 250 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: And you can, you know, stroke my hair and braid 251 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: it and save me. They're real cultural police around maintaining 252 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: a system. It's killing them, killing us. Oh yeah, So 253 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: what I would love to do, because the empathetic piece 254 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: right around these white women, what would be our generous 255 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: take on what is going on there? First of all, 256 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: what is what is so beautiful about what the uncertain 257 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: place that you seem to feel like you're in now 258 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: is that it feels like the embodiment of being the wilderness. 259 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: For those who know Braving the Wilderness and give examples 260 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: in that book, and you talk about having the courage 261 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: of your values, it feels like you're right in the 262 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: middle of what it means to be the wilderness, to 263 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: be in that place where you have rejected. If you're 264 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: not with us, you're against us, and you are really 265 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 1: in the space of belonging to yourself and the price 266 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: is high that the reward is great. You know, my 267 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 1: angelaric moment that that you quote in Raving the Wilderness. 268 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: I guess I just want to sort of affirm that 269 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: from my perspective, that that's what it feels like. And 270 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: I guess shivers about it because this is the difficult 271 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: work that we must do. But then going to that 272 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 1: generous place, to that empathetic place for white women. Let's 273 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 1: just keep talking about white women for now, I guess. 274 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: But is it the thing of trying to fit in 275 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: this sort of poe belonging, because you know, we can 276 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: talk about the theoretical aligning with power, and you know 277 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: black folks do it too, right, Black folks will align 278 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: with white supremacies, will align with certain power structures. It's 279 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: sort of a way to armor up into self protect 280 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 1: what what's at the core? Because I think that if 281 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: we were not going to be able to move past 282 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: us versus them, how divide it we are if we 283 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: can't sort of begin to parse out the psychology of 284 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: what is going on at the core of all this. 285 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,239 Speaker 1: And I've thought it's maybe it's fear, But what do 286 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: you think is at the heart of this? So first 287 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: let me just say that I I don't know what's 288 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,440 Speaker 1: going on with me right now, and so you're analysis 289 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: of it. I've always told you, how what have I 290 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: told you that it would be the best role you 291 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 1: could ever play in a million years? What would you 292 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,479 Speaker 1: be playing? Do you remember what I told you? I 293 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 1: don't remember. What did you say? What did you say? 294 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: You should play a therapist? Very good. Let you get 295 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: that in the universe. Now. I remember. So I felt 296 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: therapized by you a little bit, because I do think 297 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: there's some truth and I've been trying to figure out 298 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: where I am right now. I think what's happened Lavern is. 299 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: I think I've made peace with the wilderness. And I 300 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: think that there have been times in my life that 301 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 1: I would brave the wilderness and then I'd come back 302 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: to my bunk or belonging. And now I've just set 303 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: up camp here. This is actually going to be my life. 304 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: And you know what, it's great. It's like Coachella out here. 305 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: All all the weirdos are out here. When we talk 306 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: about the white women who support Trump, or we talked 307 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: about that, and Trump is not the problem to me 308 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: at all. Trump is the manifestation of a problem, right, Yeah. 309 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: And I have to tell you, to be honest with you, 310 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: if people knew my politics, really knew them, I'm much 311 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: more moderate than most people think, and the far left 312 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: take me on as much as the far right, to 313 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 1: be honest, So what I would say is, when we 314 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: talk about those white women. It is ultimately, to me 315 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: about two things. It is about belonging, the veracity at 316 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: which the like I don't even know how to use 317 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: the words like, the force at which people will come 318 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: at you in this cohort if you do not tow 319 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: the line. It's not just that they will come after 320 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: you and push you out. They will come after your husband, 321 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: your wife, your kids. They will come for you because 322 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: you are tipping something sacred. And so it is about 323 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: belonging versus fitting in. And it is about a d 324 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: socialization that on purpose does not involve the interrogation of power, 325 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: because you have to foster some sort of critique of 326 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: the status quo, and some people just aren't built for that. 327 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: Let's take a short break. When we come back, let's 328 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,360 Speaker 1: talk about expectations and how they keep us from living authentically. 329 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: Welcome back. Burnet Brown says that stories are data with 330 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: the soul. So here's a little bit of data from 331 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: my personal life with a lot of soul. I'm spending 332 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: a conversation with a man that I've known for twelve 333 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,840 Speaker 1: years now, and we dated like twelve years ago, and 334 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: we were sitting here in my apartment like a month 335 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: or so ago and talking about some very difficult stuff actually, 336 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: and he's been dating trans women since like twenty seven 337 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: years of dating trans women. If some people in his life, no, 338 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: but most people don't know. And we were talking about 339 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 1: like how his dad was a cop, and you know, 340 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: he's like, I can't let people know that I like 341 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: trans women because I was the firstborn son and there 342 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 1: were all these expectations around masculinity, were all these things 343 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: where I was just like, but you have known trans 344 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,119 Speaker 1: women for twenty seven years. So many of us for 345 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: decades have had the courage to be ourselves. We've lost 346 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: our families, lost friends, and he's seen this. But then 347 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: he's so afraid of losing the approval of his father, 348 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 1: having people judge him. I just didn't even get it. 349 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: But then I was thinking, he just has never questioned 350 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: the status quo. He's never been in a space I 351 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: think because he is white and male. But the deep 352 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 1: sad part of it is that at this point in 353 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: his life, there were all these expectations around who he 354 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: was supposed to be and it has not worked out. 355 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: He doesn't have the money that he wanted to have, 356 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: and he's you know, saying, hasn't a kids, and so 357 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: what was so sad to me is that he kind 358 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: of his toe this line and not really fully belonged 359 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: to himself. And I think, and sometimes those people who 360 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: are willing to question the system and question the expectations, 361 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,160 Speaker 1: I guess about who they're supposed to be. Maybe those 362 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: people are more able to brave the wilderness. Thinking about 363 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: like where you are right now, and I'm just thinking 364 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: about people burning your books. I can't even imagine how 365 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: that must feel. And then I think about how I've 366 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: been in the wilderness, like my whole life in a way, 367 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: because I've made choices, right, I've made choices that have 368 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: I've always been an outsider and that's just been my life. 369 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: But a lot of people aren't willing to do that. 370 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: It's scary to be in the wilderness, and it's it's 371 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: scary to go alone. It's scary to question authority. Yes, 372 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: because look, here's the thing, Like, is it sad when 373 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,880 Speaker 1: someone sends me a picture of you know, the gifts 374 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: of imperfection and flames? It did take my breath away 375 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: a little bit, But after I thought about it, I'm like, now, 376 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: I can you know, join the list of great band 377 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 1: booked writers. You know, that's great, But think about the 378 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: privilege of choosing the wilderness versus being shoved in it 379 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: because of your gender identity, or your race or a 380 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: million other reasons. So why interrogate power if what's at 381 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: risk is your privilege? Absolutely right. So if I'm going 382 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: to interrogate power to better understand my experience on the margins, 383 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: that's one thing. But you're going to ask me to 384 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: walk into the wilderness and interrogate power, and I got 385 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: nothing but shipped to lose unless I believe existentially in 386 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: a better world, our justice. I think you have to 387 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 1: believe in those things. I mean, why else would someone 388 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: do it? Right? Absolutely? You know. I have a group 389 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: of girlfriends called the COTS, the Council of Trans Sistors, 390 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 1: And we were hanging out and one of my girlfriends, 391 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: she's a white trans woman and was raised very privileged. 392 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,679 Speaker 1: She was assigned mail at birth and was told that 393 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: she could conquer the world and rule the world. And 394 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: she was talking about sort of feeling a loss of 395 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: that sort of care free, you know, assumed male sort 396 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 1: of privilege that she had. And it was me and 397 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: two other black trans women, three of us black trans 398 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: women I hadn't. We were like, do you do you 399 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: have a sense of We had no. There was absolutely 400 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: no point of reference because I never felt and this 401 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: is the thing, every every trans experience isn't the same, 402 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: but like how race can change these things. I was like, 403 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: I never felt I never felt male, I never felt 404 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 1: perceived as mail, and I certainly didn't feel privileged right 405 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: like that. No one was like saying the world is 406 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: your oyster because you're like this gender non conforming, like 407 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 1: poor kid from Alabama like that. That was not like, 408 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,199 Speaker 1: that was not a part of my upbringing, and so 409 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I had anything to lose when 410 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: I transitioned. And I think about the men who date 411 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: trans women as well, and like, I've just been so 412 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: aware over the years how so many of them don't 413 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: stand by our sides, particularly ones who do have privileges, 414 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: because it's hard, you know. I think there's a lot 415 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 1: of assumptions that people make about men who date trans women, 416 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: and most of them, I found, are not willing to 417 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 1: face those those assumptions that people make about them. Right 418 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: because people disavow the womanhood of trans women, they assume 419 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: the men that we date must be gay because they 420 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: don't acknowledge our womanhood. And a lot of the men 421 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: that I've I've dated met over the years are not comfortable. 422 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: They're straight identified men. They are straight. There are men 423 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: who are tried to women. They're not comfortable with people 424 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 1: thinking they're gay. Um, but the thing of giving up 425 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: privilege is is a huge part of it. But the 426 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: divided nature of of where we are right now and 427 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: the ways in which you alluded to, how dehumanizing our 428 00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: current president, for I don't like to say his name, 429 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: how do humanizing his rhetoric has been in in policies? 430 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: I would also like to say, And in Braving the 431 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: Wilderness you talk about rehumanization and I had never seen 432 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: anyone sort of talk about that and allude to that, 433 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: And I thought that was so beautiful and so crucial 434 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: for us getting back to each other, getting moving past 435 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: us versus them, and becoming less divided. How do we 436 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: really fully live in a space that we don't demonize 437 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: into humanize people who disagree with us across the political spectrum? 438 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: And that is like really really hard work, and I 439 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: and I certainly do it imperfectly. What are your thoughts? 440 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,360 Speaker 1: I think the word that we're not saying right now 441 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: is walking into the wilderness interrogating power and the structures 442 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: and the systems that are working just how they were designed. Shame, Oh, shame, 443 00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: speak right. I think there's a very short line between 444 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: acknowledging privilege, interrogating power, and feeling shame and and being 445 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: shamed by other people for interrogating it because you're messing 446 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: with the system that they're propping up. And so maybe 447 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 1: what I'm experiencing in the wilderness with all my weirdo 448 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 1: friends have decided to set up camp out here with me, 449 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: is that there's a lot of shame resilience in the wilderness. Um. 450 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: But I think in terms of dehumanizing, I will tell 451 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: you this and this is this has been tough for 452 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 1: me as the election results came in over those you know, 453 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: the days and days I banned as many people on 454 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: the left is on the right from my social media accounts, 455 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: because when this administration calls immigrants, we uses the investation. 456 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: Let's just back up a little bit and do like 457 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: some like some thinking and teaching about this. So dehumanization 458 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: is the birthplace of every gin side recorded through history. 459 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: If you take a group of people that are different 460 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: than you, that you fear, and you remove human qualities 461 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: from them, it gives humans the capacity for violence towards them, 462 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 1: which actually we're not neurobiologically wired to maim, rape, hurt, 463 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: and kill other humans. So in order to do that, 464 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: we have to go through a system of de humanization. 465 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: So the most classic understanding of that, or or evidence 466 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: of that, would be a very very powerful marketing campaign 467 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: by the Nazis and Nazi Germany late thirties around Jewish people, 468 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: you know, using the words infestation, using you know, animals, 469 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: rodents to describe. And then once you strip people of 470 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: your humanity, you're able to do all kinds of things 471 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: to folks. And so we thought with slavery in the 472 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: United States as well. Yeah, of course, and we still 473 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: see that, we still see the de humanization. Right. But 474 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: if you call forty five, as you'll say, a pig, 475 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: I'm banning you. And here's why. I'll tell you a 476 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: story that a lot of people don't know about me, 477 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: because you know, I'm a cusser. I'm a great cusser. 478 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: I got I got every permeation of the F word 479 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: that you it's something you've never even heard of. But 480 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: I haven't said the word b I T c H 481 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: since nineteen four. So, however many years at six twenty 482 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: six years, and I'll tell you why. I had a professor, 483 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: Karen Stout when I was in getting my graduate degree 484 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: in social work, who studied femicide, the killing of women 485 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: by intimate partners. And part of the project we did 486 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: with her was analyzing court transcripts of not only mostly 487 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: men who were of them were men who killed female partners, 488 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:46,240 Speaker 1: but also sexual assault, and in over these cases, the 489 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: last word the woman heard was b I T H, 490 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: which is a dehumanizing term, right It means dog. Yeah, 491 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: And so I am an equal opportunity blocker for dehumanizing. 492 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 1: So one way I think we come back to each 493 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: other is that is not okay if the left becomes 494 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: the dehumanizing their own version of the maga hat people, 495 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: I'm not interested in that world. We see it already. 496 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: I mean there's I mean, I don't think there's an 497 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: equivalent to maga on the left, but I think there's 498 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: a lot of folks who I see it constantly, people 499 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: who identify as politically progressive or leftist. When they say 500 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: they're disgusting, they're horrible, They're awful like these are. This 501 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: is language that I see constantly from people on the left. 502 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: Now it feels to humanizing to me. It's dehumanizing now 503 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: personally in terms of empathy and embracing the other side 504 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,479 Speaker 1: for me. Too soon, I'll be honest with you now, 505 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna be asked with you, why is it 506 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: too soon? Let's say you and I. Let's say you're 507 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: one of my relatives, but you are a conservative, conservative Republican. 508 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: I am a I'm a moderate. Actually, I'm probably a 509 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: moderate independent, to be honest with you. And if you 510 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 1: and I want to go at it around social security, 511 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: lack boxing, medical policy, immigration policy, that's great. But when 512 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: you're politics by definition stripped me of my humanity, it's 513 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: too soon for an empathic embrace. It's probably not safe. 514 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: It's not safe, right, It's not safe. And so that's hard. 515 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: And there was a real underbelly of white supremacy, white nationalism, 516 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: violence that came along with this administration. Has nothing to 517 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: do with conservative politics. It has nothing to do with 518 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 1: constitutional conservatism. It has to do with a lack of 519 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:58,080 Speaker 1: respect for democracy and people. And I can't embrace that 520 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: right now. I don't trust you. Yeah, I feel that 521 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: I understand that. What I wonder what's interesting to me 522 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: right now is thinking about sort of the history of 523 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: the conservative politics so much of both Democratic and Republican politics. 524 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: Race is just a huge, huge part of it. What Nixon, 525 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: specifically in the Republican Party did at the time was 526 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: used race as a way to galvanize white men at 527 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: the time, and white men who sort of avoid majority 528 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: and we know a lot of white women came along 529 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: for the ride. And so we can say that conservative 530 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: politics around, you know, fiscal conservatism and all, that's not 531 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,479 Speaker 1: really about race, but it is that party since sixty 532 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: eight has always used race as a way to get 533 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: folks to vote against their own economic interest, as a 534 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: way to scapegoat and fearmonger, and that is something that 535 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: the Republican Party has consistently done. Now, I would say 536 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: I would say I'm an independent. I wouldn't say I'm 537 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: I'm moderate in any way, but I'm definitely independent. But 538 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: I think the Democratic Party, at least more recently has 539 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:05,479 Speaker 1: sort of given lip service to being anti racist. And 540 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: because our politicians are sort of bought and paid for 541 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: by special interests, they're not really doing anything for poor 542 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: and working people, right, so that like the most marginalized 543 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: people are still not really being helped by either party. 544 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: And trying not to be cynical, but this year I've 545 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: been very cynical thinking about where we are. The will 546 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 1: of the people isn't really being done by the folks 547 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: in power, and and so much of what the US 548 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: versus Them is about is about people in power using 549 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,719 Speaker 1: the divide and conquer strategy, and folks are just buying 550 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: into it. It feels like there's a couple of things, right. 551 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: There's the interpersonal piece of what can we do to 552 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: not dehumanize, to rehumanize, to have empathy and compassion and 553 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,040 Speaker 1: generocity towards each other on an interpersonal level. But then 554 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: if we start thinking about its structurally, there's all this 555 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: power and all of this money involved in keeping us 556 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: divided it. You know, I think to me it comes 557 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:08,239 Speaker 1: down to the use of power by leadership. The Republican 558 00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,280 Speaker 1: Party is the power over party, and the Democratic Party 559 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 1: is the power with empower to empower within party. I 560 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,520 Speaker 1: don't know that that's the case. You know, power over 561 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,720 Speaker 1: works from this belief that power is finite, where power 562 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 1: with empower to work from a position that collaboration is 563 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 1: important because power is infinite when shared power over uses 564 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: fear and blame. Just keep people afraid and tell them 565 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 1: who's fault it is that you're afraid. So there's two 566 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: things that I think are key to real power, and 567 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: no one's going to like them, which are representation and reparations. 568 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 1: So I believe in those two things absolutely. I believe 569 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: in representation until we have a government that looks like 570 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: the people it serves in terms of not just race, ethnicity, 571 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: and gender, but class amen And then what are those 572 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,439 Speaker 1: reparations looks like? Are we talking racial reparations? Are we talking? Oh? 573 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,319 Speaker 1: I think we start with racial reparations, and I think 574 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 1: the reparations should come in the form of funded healing 575 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 1: of trauma and the dismantling of systems that perpetuate the trauma. 576 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: I think we have to have some trauma work. Yeah. Absolutely, 577 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 1: it's time for a quick break. When we come back, 578 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: Brian and I talked more about what our society needs 579 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:44,880 Speaker 1: to heal. Welcome back to my conversation with Dr Burne Brown. 580 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: Let's just pick up where we left off. I've been 581 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: doing a lot of trauma work on my own and 582 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,319 Speaker 1: when I was doing a deep dive back into your 583 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: work and looking at the ways in which we armor 584 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 1: up around vulnerability. Um, victim of viking lens, right, My 585 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 1: understanding of it is the victim biking lens. It's about 586 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: not allowing ourselves to be victims. So the victim biking 587 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: lens is a binary kind of way of looking at things. 588 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: And it really is like, I have to be a 589 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,919 Speaker 1: fighter at all cost, so it has incredible judgment towards vulnerability, 590 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: and so I must be armored up or I'm gonna die. 591 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: It keeps us in a constant fight flighter freeze. It's 592 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,720 Speaker 1: a lens that keeps us always in this high zone, 593 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,799 Speaker 1: that keeps us always away from anything that might seem vulnerable. 594 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,359 Speaker 1: You're saying your work, it's really often a lens that 595 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: trauma survivors use, and that that way of arming ourselves 596 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 1: is a trauma response, but then also sort of keeps 597 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: us in in the US versus them. It keeps us 598 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 1: in that like fight flight of freeze. It keeps us 599 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 1: in this place of not real resilience, and it it's 600 00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: almost a re traumatizing ourselves. What what Yeah, I think, 601 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: I think everything you said, is true. I mean, do 602 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: you know what it does to our body? You do? 603 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,760 Speaker 1: But does everyone know what it does to our body 604 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: to stay in survival mode? Like that's a gear in 605 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: our neurobiology that's meant to be used a couple of 606 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: times in our lives. It's not a gear you're supposed 607 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: to live in. Yeah, what was deep for me with 608 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: all thinking about all the trauma work that I've been 609 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: doing that I'm deeply aware of the ways in which 610 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 1: I've used stress hormones like my whole life, because I've 611 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: constantly been in this victim Viking lens because of my 612 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 1: historic trauma, that trauma piece, that survival, fight flight or 613 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: freeze kind of response that feels like it's also tied 614 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: to belonging. You say in your work love and belonging 615 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,719 Speaker 1: or immutable needs of human beings, and that in the 616 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: absence of that there's always suffering. But then also there's shame. 617 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: Shame is the intensely painful belief we have a boy 618 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,839 Speaker 1: ourselves that were unworthy of connection and belonging, and so 619 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: the shame response when we've been shunned and we don't 620 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: have a sense of belonging our bodies responded to being 621 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: shamed in the same way they response to trauma, so 622 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: that we still have that same release of cortisol, of 623 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,839 Speaker 1: of stress hormones and we come out fighting right, And 624 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: so then the way in which we're like at each 625 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,400 Speaker 1: other's throats is really like, are we all just in 626 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: a perpetual fight flight or freeze? I mean the psychological piece. Obviously, 627 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 1: I think it's important to understand that power wants us 628 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 1: to be doing this to each other. But it's not 629 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: sustainable to be constantly a fight flight or freeze. It's 630 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: not sustainable to constantly beat each other's throats, and it's 631 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: not wholehearted living. It's not like we can't be happy. 632 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: I mean, the research shows that we're more sorted now 633 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: than we've ever been before. We're also more lonely. Yeah, 634 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:49,760 Speaker 1: isn't that incredible finding that as we sort ourselves into 635 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 1: these ideological bunkers where I'm just around people like me. 636 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 1: I go to church, I worship, I go to the 637 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: grocery store. I don't talk to anyone that doesn't agree 638 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 1: with me. And you think that would few connection. But 639 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 1: the only thing that tracks in terms of social psychosocial characteristics, 640 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 1: what tracks exactly with sorting is loneliness. Yeah, and so 641 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: I don't think that we're collectively in a place of 642 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,440 Speaker 1: joy or love or empathy right now. I don't think 643 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 1: how we are is sustainable. I have to say that 644 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: the biggest casualty of the last four years is how 645 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: divisiveness was used to maintain and create power, and that 646 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: we fell in line like we didn't transcend it. And 647 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:52,320 Speaker 1: some of the worst, most violent perpetrators of the divisiveness 648 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: were not only given cover, but they were armed by 649 00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 1: this administration literally and figuratively. Yeah. And so if you 650 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:08,560 Speaker 1: think about what we're up against as a culture systems 651 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: or systems, right, and so if you think about it 652 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: as a family system, the very first thing that we 653 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,479 Speaker 1: know that I know is a social worker that would 654 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,520 Speaker 1: have to happen in a family system where there are 655 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: deep fault lines and betrayals and rage and fear is 656 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:32,640 Speaker 1: the creation of physical and emotional safety. Mm. So that's 657 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: the very first thing that has to happen. In physical 658 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: and emotional safety. That means you have to address all 659 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:46,400 Speaker 1: kinds of violence, racial, economic violence, gender violence. Yeah. So 660 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 1: the very first thing I would do is there would 661 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,920 Speaker 1: be definitely a Pandemic Task Force in place, and we've 662 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: already seen Biden do that. Biden Harris has done that, 663 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: because we have to be physically safe. The second thing 664 00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: I would do is if you incided terror in a 665 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 1: single person with a goal of scaring everyone that belonged 666 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,320 Speaker 1: to that group, you would be classified as a domestic 667 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:14,399 Speaker 1: terrorist and you would be held accountable accordingly. So if 668 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 1: you burn across at a black church, that's an act 669 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:24,760 Speaker 1: of terrorism. If you taught hurt go after a trans 670 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: woman on the street, that's an act of terrorism. And 671 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 1: it's never if you think about terrorism as an international term, 672 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:31,279 Speaker 1: and I looked this up a lot when I was 673 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,600 Speaker 1: doing this research and talk to experts on terrorism, and 674 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: you know, terrorism is never about the single act of violence. 675 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: It's about the fear that instills in people. And normally 676 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,320 Speaker 1: successful acts of terrorism are simple acts of violence that 677 00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 1: over time create divisions and communities in terms of how 678 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: to respond to that terrorism. And so the terrorists work 679 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 1: is very simple, just to do enough that's random against 680 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 1: a citizen so that people then get at each other's 681 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: throats around how to solve for it. And that's what 682 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,719 Speaker 1: we're seeing today. And I think what's useful about that 683 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 1: is understanding that we can begin to think about domestic 684 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: terrorism and a relationship to black folks in the police right, 685 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: that like, black people have been experiencing terrorism from the 686 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 1: police since the police have existed in the United States. 687 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: And I think for people who don't know your work 688 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: really well and they're like, oh, this magasan extreme, But 689 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: I think what you're talking about is what does accountability 690 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 1: begin to look like? We have completely there's no accountability, 691 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: and so we can't brave, we can't really be in 692 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 1: our full integrity without accountability, there's just new have been 693 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,000 Speaker 1: no consequences. And so it sounds like what you're talking 694 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: about with this classifying people's terrorists is what does accountability 695 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: begin to look like in the United States of America? 696 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,960 Speaker 1: And then how do we own that history? How do 697 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 1: we own the story? I think it was one of 698 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: the most powerful things I've heard this year. You're a 699 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: famous quote. When we deny our stories, those stories define us. 700 00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,319 Speaker 1: And when we own our stories, we can write a 701 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,720 Speaker 1: brave new end. And we have not owned the story 702 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,400 Speaker 1: the legacy of racism and white supremacy in the United States, 703 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:08,239 Speaker 1: and that owning that story requires some accountability that we 704 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: haven't done. And so that's what i'm that's what I'm 705 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: hearing from what you said. Yeah, I am, And so 706 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:18,359 Speaker 1: I think, you know, simple acts of accountability. Help me understand, 707 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: Somebody walk me through why there is no national database 708 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: of police officers who have used excessive force. And I 709 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 1: think if you dig deep enough, it's police unions protection 710 00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,840 Speaker 1: of bad you know. But does that serve good cops? No? No, no, 711 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't serve anybody. Everything. When you look at the 712 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:40,600 Speaker 1: history of policing, which I think a lot of us 713 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: have been doing, they have been commissions and ultimately the 714 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 1: police protect themselves. Historically, that's what every commission comes down to, 715 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 1: police protecting themselves and sort of assuaging or mitigating accountability 716 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,800 Speaker 1: around their behavior. That is the history of policing in 717 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: the United States. But I would like to remind you 718 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: of I think you was your second Ted talk when 719 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,960 Speaker 1: you talked about people sort of attacking your appearance and 720 00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 1: how that like started this crazy shame storm for you. 721 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: It feels like you have really done a lot of 722 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,719 Speaker 1: work to build a lot of shame resilience. We know 723 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,000 Speaker 1: from your research that appearance, embody image is a number 724 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: one shame trigger for women still And do you feel 725 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,839 Speaker 1: that or have you come to a new place with that? Oh, 726 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: I'm at a new place with it. I think it's 727 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: you know, there's this line in the Big Book that 728 00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:31,000 Speaker 1: says one of the promises of recovery is the gift 729 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 1: of neutrality, where you're neither running away from something as 730 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: fast as you can, nor are you running toward it. 731 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: And the condition for neutrality is to be in fit 732 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 1: spiritual condition. And so I think my goal is I 733 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,440 Speaker 1: can't do this work without being in fit spiritual condition. 734 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:57,160 Speaker 1: You know, I'll have twenty five years so next year. Um, 735 00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,640 Speaker 1: And for me, the neutrality is the booze was easy, 736 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,320 Speaker 1: this ust was harder. And the bread basket is a 737 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,400 Speaker 1: mother trucker. You know, I've been in the bread basket. 738 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,399 Speaker 1: I've been in the you know sugar or the little 739 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:13,319 Speaker 1: Debbie snack cakes. Yeah. Yeah, I think for me, as 740 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: long as I stay in fit spiritual condition, I have 741 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:21,839 Speaker 1: developed a neutrality where I'm not running toward investigating who 742 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:23,839 Speaker 1: said that and what can I find out about them? 743 00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,480 Speaker 1: And what's my great comeback. I'm not shutting down social 744 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 1: that I need to be on for work. I just 745 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: feel a neutrality, but maintaining fit spiritual condition in this 746 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:39,200 Speaker 1: world is har hard for me. It's sleep, it's eating well, 747 00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,880 Speaker 1: it's praying, it's resting well. It's being connected with the 748 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 1: people I love and valuing them over the strangers um 749 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,399 Speaker 1: whose opinions I can take too seriously sometimes. So I'm 750 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: a work in progress leaver and as you know, as 751 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,200 Speaker 1: m I can, I tell you I made a gratitude 752 00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,720 Speaker 1: list for the first time in a really long time today, 753 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,439 Speaker 1: and it's something I used to do everything single morning 754 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: when I wait, be the first thing I do, like 755 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,839 Speaker 1: at least list five things I'm grateful for or five 756 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: things I'm manifesting, and I haven't been doing it. And 757 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: I notice a difference the way I've armored up this 758 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,759 Speaker 1: year around perfectionism, chronic numbing, all the all the ways 759 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,520 Speaker 1: we armor up. It's been deep and like, just leaning 760 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:22,720 Speaker 1: into gratitude this morning shifted so much and acknowledging that 761 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: I'm still struggling with vulnerability and that that is really 762 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,880 Speaker 1: at the heart of so much of this. And everyone 763 00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,280 Speaker 1: who does a deep diving your work, your leadership work, 764 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:35,640 Speaker 1: every single aspect of your work, it always comes back 765 00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 1: to vulnerability. Always, and it's and it's does it just does. 766 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:47,319 Speaker 1: So on the podcast for every episode, I wanted to 767 00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: have this question what else is true? What else is true? 768 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 1: Comes out of both and it's really about what we 769 00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,960 Speaker 1: focus on. If I'm in pain and I focus on 770 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,200 Speaker 1: that pain, that's all I'm going to feel. But if 771 00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: I focus on something that is light and joyful and hopeful, 772 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,920 Speaker 1: that can become a resource. And it's not that the 773 00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: pain goes away, it's that this other thing can help 774 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,280 Speaker 1: mitigate that pain. What else is true? It's all about 775 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,279 Speaker 1: the resilient part of us. So that is what this 776 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,399 Speaker 1: question and this segment is about. It is about cultivating 777 00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:29,239 Speaker 1: resilience within ourselves and remembering that what we focus on 778 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: becomes the thing. So we can change what we focus 779 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,799 Speaker 1: on and change our energy, change how we feel. We 780 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:41,880 Speaker 1: have the power to change. So burne bround for you today, 781 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:47,920 Speaker 1: what else is True? I make a lot of mistakes. 782 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,400 Speaker 1: I'm often afraid. But one thing that I do believe 783 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:55,360 Speaker 1: is true is I am proud of my willingness to 784 00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:59,759 Speaker 1: always try to do the next right thing. I think 785 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:01,480 Speaker 1: that's true of me. I think I am trying to 786 00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,160 Speaker 1: do the next right thing. Yeah, And that is a 787 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,920 Speaker 1: resilient place. That's a that's a beautiful place. Thank you 788 00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: so much, Burnee. You can find Burnee Brown in so 789 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 1: many places. She's a New York Times bestselling author. There's 790 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,040 Speaker 1: many books you can read. She has the podcast Unlocking Us, 791 00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,360 Speaker 1: the podcast Dare to Lead. I Love. One of my 792 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:27,440 Speaker 1: favorite moments of yours is the Power of Vulnerability audio book. 793 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,600 Speaker 1: I literally, I think for about a year I listened 794 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,040 Speaker 1: to it every day. This is why I know your work. 795 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 1: So for about a year I listened to it every day, 796 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:36,560 Speaker 1: and I was touring and I needed it. The Power 797 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: Vulnerability is something I've shared with a lot of my 798 00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,719 Speaker 1: friends and they've just it's changed their lives. Yeah, Power Vulnerability. 799 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: Check out Bernie Brown. Thank you so much. This has 800 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:52,920 Speaker 1: been Thank you, Laverne. This has been everything. Wow, Bernie 801 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,880 Speaker 1: give us so much to think about, as always, what 802 00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:00,319 Speaker 1: it means to rehumanize each other feels key. Berne has 803 00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: this great acronym that I find so helpful. It's big 804 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:08,920 Speaker 1: B I G. And it basically stands for what boundaries 805 00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:12,320 Speaker 1: be need to be in place for me to maintain 806 00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:18,080 Speaker 1: my integrity. I and make the most generous G assumption 807 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,360 Speaker 1: about you and braving the Wilderness. Berne not only invites 808 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 1: us to brave the wilderness, but to become the wilderness. 809 00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:42,680 Speaker 1: The price is high, the reward is great. Thank you 810 00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,920 Speaker 1: for listening to The Laverne Cox Show. If this episode 811 00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:50,239 Speaker 1: resonated with you, please leave a review, rate, subscribe, and 812 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,319 Speaker 1: share it with your friends. Next week, we'll be talking 813 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:57,600 Speaker 1: to Demona Hoffman about dating over forty yes and forty 814 00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,479 Speaker 1: eight years old and proud. We'll see an next week. 815 00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at Laverne 816 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 1: Cox and on Facebook at Laverne Cox for Real. Until 817 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:15,319 Speaker 1: next time, stay in the love. The Laverne Cox Show 818 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,160 Speaker 1: is the production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with I 819 00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:22,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the 820 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,759 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen 821 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:26,800 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.