1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. Let me tell you 2 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: we have a new star. A star is born elan 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: On mars Jus and Kennemy. 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 2: He is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 2: I feel for the guy. 7 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 1: I would say ninety eight percent really appreciate what he does. 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: But those two percent. 9 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: That are nasty, they are opit in full. 10 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: Fols. We were meant for great things in the United 11 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: States of America, and Elon reminds us of that. I'm 12 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: very disappointed in Elon. 13 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: I've helped Elon a lot. 14 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Elon Aink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 15 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: It's Tuesday, September two. I'm your host, Max Chafkin, joined 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: right now by Craig Trudell, Bloomberg Autos editor, Hey, Craig AMX, 17 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: and of course Stana Hall, Bloomberg Elon Musk reporter and 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: the regular contributor to this podcast, Dana. How are you, hey, Max? 19 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: So yesterday was Labor Day. Normally that's a slow day, 20 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: I guess slow day for most of people in the 21 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 1: United States anyway, But it wasn't slow for Elon, so 22 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: Tesla unveiled its master Plan Part four. These were once 23 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:25,360 Speaker 1: like a big part of the company's identity, of Elon's identity. 24 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: But the weird thing about this fourth master plan was 25 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: that Elon basically didn't talk about it. Most of the weekend. 26 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: He was tweeting about kind of his usual like political interests. 27 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: He was tweeting about the quote rape of Europe, a 28 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: bunch of other niche topics, birth rates, far right, British politics, 29 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: supposed voter fraud, groomers, JB. Pritzker's cousin. It went on 30 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: and on and on, many many tweets about all this, 31 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: and the only mention as far as I could find 32 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: of the master plan at all was the comment that 33 00:01:55,760 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: quote eighty percent of Tesla's value will be optimists. We'll 34 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: get to optimists in a second, But Craig, what is 35 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: your read on this latest master plan? 36 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, as you alluded to, this has been the big 37 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 3: thing in Tesla lore right. The first one came out 38 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 3: in two thousand and six, and it was before Tesla 39 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 3: was really even on most people's radar. It wasn't really 40 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 3: a company that was on the tip of anybody's tongue 41 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 3: wasn't the world's most valuable car company, and it was 42 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 3: kind of endearing. It's sort of you know, it was fun. 43 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 3: It was the title of it was something about secret 44 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,799 Speaker 3: master plan between you and me. It was something that 45 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 3: people could enjoy. It was a little bit unconventional, not 46 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 3: like other CEOs. I think the second one was sort 47 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 3: of like that too, right. They referred to it as 48 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 3: master Plan Pardue. I think we're less jokey with the 49 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 3: last iteration. They tried to do this long winded presentation 50 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 3: about all it was going to take to turn the 51 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 3: world to sustainable energy. And I feel like it was 52 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 3: right around that time that this was a company that 53 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 3: was all about sustainable energy. To Psyche, it's all about AI, 54 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 3: it's all about robots, it's all about self driving cars, 55 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 3: and the business that you've known us for since the 56 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 3: beginning forget about it. Where As Dana likes to say, 57 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,399 Speaker 3: we're tired of we're bored of making cars and this 58 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 3: master plan it really underwhelmed me. It was super vague, 59 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,799 Speaker 3: had a lot of platitudes, and it was very uninitial 60 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 3: master plan like in that it was a lot of 61 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:33,119 Speaker 3: empty rhetoric and sort of vague platitudes and not much substance. 62 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: Part quatro dana, I mean definitely less specific. Sustainable abundance 63 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: is the main theme. 64 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 2: Yes, abundance is like the new buzzword. And I'm like, 65 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: are they just trying to like jump on the fact 66 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: that there's a book out about abundance and like capture 67 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 2: the like search engine SEO terms about that. What struck 68 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 2: me is that this is recycling stuff that has been 69 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: in their shareholder decks and in their impact reports. They're 70 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: like even the picture of like the family playing Jiggo, 71 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: while I guess Optimist is in the background like watering 72 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: the plants or something like that. We've seen those images before, 73 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: and so fundamentally, I think that Tesla has a real 74 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 2: marketing problem where you have a CEO who is clearly 75 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 2: bored of the car industry, wanting to continue to ride 76 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: this AI hype wave and convinced shareholders that the future 77 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: is all about robotics and AI, but like they keep 78 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 2: falling short of really being able to do that in 79 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: a cogent way. And for a long time it was 80 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 2: all about FSD, But now I almost get the sense 81 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: that Elon is tired of FSD because he's talking more 82 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 2: about optimists. If optimist is going to be eighty percent 83 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: of the value, then what is the value of FFSD? 84 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 2: Like he's constantly reinventing ways for Tesla to differentiate itself. Meanwhile, 85 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 2: as Craig knows, like they've got four factories around the 86 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: globe that are over capacity and declining sales, Like what 87 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: are they going to do with these auto plants that 88 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 2: they built in Berlin? In places like Berlin? I just 89 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: think it's like, why drop this on labor Day? Unlet 90 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 2: It's the proxy is gonna come out soon. But it's 91 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: just like from from everything, from like a timing perspective 92 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 2: and a marketing perspective and a strategic communications perspective. It's 93 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 2: the mess that Tesla has always been. 94 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: I want to get to this sort of marketing question 95 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: in a minute. But like Craig on this optimist thing, 96 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: Elon's own, like I said, his only comment about this, 97 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: and in years past, right the part uno or part 98 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: uh and part duh were very personal documents. I mean, 99 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: Part uh was basically a blog post. Uh. Part two 100 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: was a blog post. Part three was this crazy white paper. 101 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: But even there, Elon spent a lot of time tweeting 102 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: about it, and I went back and looked and he 103 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: was promoting it on the day it dropped. He was 104 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: talking about he's talking about writing it eighty percent of 105 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: Tesla's valuable optimist, Craig, do you know what that actually means? Like, 106 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: is that is there a deadline on that? Or like, 107 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 1: at what point is optimists eighty percent? Any sense of 108 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: how investors should should model this one? 109 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, my inbox has been interesting. We have a lot 110 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:11,359 Speaker 3: of investors that tend to like to message authors of 111 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 3: stories about Tesla, as you might imagine, and most of them, yeah, 112 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 3: have been very thumbs down and sort of bronx cheers 113 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 3: in terms of this, you know, and they're pretty consistent, 114 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 3: right of, like how long is this guy going to 115 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 3: keep up the stick of trying to cover for the 116 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 3: fact that his car business is not growing and not 117 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 3: even really do so in an incredible way, because you know, 118 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: these robots make for cool hype videos, they make for 119 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: maybe being fun at parties, although we've seen that they've 120 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 3: needed remote support in order to do simple things like 121 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 3: serve drinks. Like, we have no idea when exactly these 122 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 3: robots are actually going to be as Musk would say, 123 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 3: doing something useful, and until and unless we have a 124 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 3: clear indication of what sort of glidepath we are on 125 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 3: toward that, how can you possibly come up with a 126 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,679 Speaker 3: credible sort of line about how much value this product 127 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 3: is going to be for this company in the next 128 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:12,239 Speaker 3: few years. 129 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 2: I'm also just like stignied by the ever changing mission 130 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 2: of the company. So first it was to celebrate the 131 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: advent of sustainable transportation that it was widened to be 132 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 2: sustainable energy, and we saw products like the solar roof 133 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: and the power wall and the megapac, which are real 134 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: products and actually like a pretty actually are like a 135 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 2: growth driver of the business at this point. But now 136 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 2: it's sustainable abundance. And it's like what does abundance mean? 137 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 2: Am I supposed to think that? Like if Optimists can 138 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: water my garden, that's somehow abundant for me? Like I 139 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 2: actually enjoy watering my garden. Like what I don't understand? 140 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: Like what is what is abundance supposed to mean? Is 141 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 2: it time? Is it wealth? Is it like freedom from 142 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: mundane tasks? Like if you look at these shareholder decks, 143 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: like Optimist is pushing a baby carriage, and is that 144 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 2: the product that Elon is now most excited about because 145 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: it certainly sounds like it based on his post sun X. 146 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think just to maybe I'm reading 147 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: too much into this. I mean, I think it's the 148 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: idea that these optimi will eventually staff factories and be 149 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: much less expensive than human workers, and therefore our stuff 150 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,559 Speaker 1: will get much, much much cheaper. It's the kind of 151 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: like utopian like Sam Altman. I mean, obviously Elon and 152 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: Sam Altman have their differences, but like the kind of 153 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: techno utopian idea of AI. I mean, that's that's my 154 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: reading of it. But like to your point and to 155 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: Craig's point, optimists, according to this very short master plan, 156 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: is quote changing not only the perception of labor itself, 157 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,599 Speaker 1: but it's availability and capability. So maybe it sound like 158 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: optimist is already put to work. There are these pictures 159 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: that Dana mentions in this in this thing. One is 160 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: an optimize, an optimist working in a factory. It looks 161 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: like with some little chemical vials. There's also a very 162 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 1: nice one of a of a like kind of a 163 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: high end party scene where the optimist is serving drinks. 164 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: Another one where the optimist is watering the plants. Well, 165 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: I guess the family plays Jenga some really you know, 166 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: pastoral scenes. But like, is optimists even in the Tesla 167 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: Cafe still remember we had those videos where it was 168 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: making popcorn. Are we seeing more Optimists out in the world. 169 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: Do we have any sense of actual progress here? 170 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 3: I think Musk was asked about this and has been 171 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 3: asked about this the last couple of earnings calls, and 172 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 3: he's been really sort of reluctant to give firm timelines. 173 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 3: And I think my favorite on the last earnings call was, 174 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,840 Speaker 3: you know, it's really hard to talk about the beginning 175 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 3: of an S curve, but you know it's much easier 176 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 3: for me to say five years from now, there's gonna 177 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 3: be these really big numbers of these things to talk about, 178 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 3: and that you know, it's just gonna go like Gangbusters, 179 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 3: but actually pin down on but when exactly are we 180 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,200 Speaker 3: going to see these being sold to customers outside of 181 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 3: Tesla and not just use by your own employees And 182 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 3: he won't really say. I think the closest he got 183 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 3: to that was back in January, where he said maybe 184 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 3: second half of next year for him to be again 185 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:17,599 Speaker 3: talking about. 186 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: Shan elon time could mean anything from second half of 187 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: next year to second half of next decades. 188 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 3: It's so ironic for him to say, Oh, it's easier 189 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: for me to talk about five years out from now 190 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 3: and harder about the nearer term, when even his super 191 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 3: fans make jokes at his expense about whenever he says 192 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 3: two weeks be skeptical about something actually being ready two 193 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 3: weeks from now. 194 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: Dana, what is happening with Tesla's auto sales? There have 195 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: been a couple of bad quarters. I know that there 196 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 1: are bulls who are sort of hoping that the anxiety 197 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: over the ev tax credits going away as a result 198 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: of the passage of the Big Beautiful Bill will lead 199 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: to sort of spike in sales. Is there any sense 200 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: that like things are going to turn around in terms 201 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: of car sales in the near term. 202 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: Tesla operates basically in three markets in North America, Europe, 203 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 2: and China. And in North America sales have been down 204 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 2: quarter over quarter, mostly because of the backlash to Elon, 205 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: and I do think that the third quarter will see 206 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 2: a bump because people are trying to get ahead of 207 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 2: these tax credits that sunset on September thirtieth. But in Europe, 208 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 2: as Craig knows, sales have really cratered in like all 209 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,679 Speaker 2: the key markets, and then in China there's this growing 210 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: competition from BYD and so you're seeing Tesla now push 211 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 2: into new markets, like the cyber truck is going to 212 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 2: be available in South Korea, and like they started selling 213 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: cars in Turkey and they've got six hundred cars. I 214 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 2: think they've sold in India. So like the only thing 215 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 2: that they can do is expand the map because their 216 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: core map is cratering. And that's just hard to do 217 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 2: because it means like growing in new markets is not 218 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 2: as easy as sustained markets where you were once the 219 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,439 Speaker 2: market leader. And that's that's what's so I think crazy 220 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 2: making to all of the like longtime Tesla investors and 221 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: early employees who just remember like how hard it was 222 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 2: to make the Model three and to like get production 223 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 2: at scale and then they made like the best selling 224 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 2: car in the world, and Elon is throwing it out 225 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,640 Speaker 2: like he's he has not done anything personally to really 226 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 2: market the new model. Why we've heard nothing about the 227 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 2: cyber truck. I mean, I've written about this before, but 228 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 2: I think fundamentally this is a person who wants to 229 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 2: be in the arena where everyone else is focused. I 230 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: think in his mind, he solved the problem of making 231 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: an affordable, high quality electric car, and he's bored and 232 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 2: he's moved on, and like the fact is that like 233 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 2: tens of thousands of employees and all of these factories 234 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 2: in this entire global supply chain have not and so 235 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 2: how are they gonna Like it's selling the cars, is 236 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 2: what is going to fund projects like optimists? 237 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: Well that's what's crazy about this document. I mean, it 238 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 1: doesn't mention affordability really at all. It suggests that Optimists 239 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: will make things cheaper by the I think by the 240 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: mechanism that I've suggested, But there's no talk of like 241 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: the cost per mile, like any of these things that 242 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: like we've seen Elon talk about where you could squint 243 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: and see how automation and the old mission connected to 244 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: one another. That was sort of the point, if I 245 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 1: memory serves of Part DUA. The crazy thing is that 246 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: the third one, which I went back and scanned, I 247 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: didn't reread the whole thing because it's like thirty pages. Yeah, 248 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: it's like a weird document from another time, because it's 249 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: entirely about clean energy and it's like much like a 250 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: yeah Biden era, like we're gonna get solar. And it's 251 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: just wild to think that the guy who created that 252 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: would then turn around the next year and endorse and 253 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 1: then and then do all this stuff to hell a 254 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: candidate who is like really committed, as we've seen, to 255 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: dialing all that stuff, back to getting rid of solar installations, 256 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: getting rid of wind farms, getting rid of these tax 257 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: credits that have been very good to Tesla? What about 258 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: the robotaxi rollout? So, like you have the car sales 259 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: going down, there have been over the last couple of 260 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: weeks a few little developments in robotaxis. Craig I think 261 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: Tesla has repeatedly increased the area under which these taxis 262 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: operate in Austin. They also said that the availability of 263 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: robotaxis would increase by fifty percent. I guess we could 264 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: take that to mean that there are now fifteen robotaxis 265 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: in Austin instead of ten. But like, where do you 266 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: think this is going? Do you think we're going to 267 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: see a bunch of a bunch more cities in the 268 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: coming months. It almost feels like he's going to have 269 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: to do something like that. To avoid even more investor backlash. 270 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he was a to be moderately successful, 271 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 3: I would say, in getting cars onto the road, at least, 272 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 3: even if it was with employees in the passenger seat, 273 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 3: even if it was with super fans in the backseat, 274 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 3: trying to sugarcoat every sort of issue that they had 275 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 3: or problem that they captured as they intestantly filmed on 276 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 3: their phones, because it did still generate the buzz that 277 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 3: was needed for the sort of Tesla bubble on X 278 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 3: and sometimes that is enough. And I think we then 279 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 3: saw the company try to kind of replicate that in 280 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 3: San Francisco. As we know and we're able to see 281 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 3: well in advance, that's not going to be doable because 282 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 3: of the regulatory regime there, and so they don't actually 283 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 3: have cars without people behind the wheel there. They're doing 284 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 3: this token indication that they're growing in Austin before they 285 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: increase the area where these cars can run around. You 286 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 3: already were having people trying to use the service who 287 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 3: we're finding really long wait times because there's not that 288 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 3: many cars available and not a huge user base, not 289 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 3: many cars on the road. That makes this you know, 290 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 3: sort of headline indication that they're growing in terms of 291 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 3: the service area meaningless, right, You're not actually seeing a 292 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,720 Speaker 3: business yet for Tesla any time soon, and this is 293 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 3: really continues to be a stunt. 294 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, in my opinion, it's all meaningless just 295 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: because I mean, these are not driverless cars. We don't 296 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 1: know anything about the economics. If I'm an investor, like 297 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: I don't know what to think about any of this. 298 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: Like clearly we've seen from other companies it's possible to 299 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: create something that looks like a driverless car service, like 300 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: Cruz has done it, Waimo has done it. Tesla is 301 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: doing it, but not quite so I don't know, but 302 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: I do want to try to theory on you both 303 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: that I've been thinking about as I was digesting all this, 304 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: which is that what we're seeing is sort of a 305 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: quiet rebrand that Tesla is doing. And I don't know 306 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: if it's happening because of Elon or despite Elon, but 307 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 1: I think it has two components. One of them is 308 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: the one that Dana just mentioned, which is that sustainability 309 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 1: is out, abundance is in right, Like he's not going 310 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: to talk about sustainability, and that kind of makes sense 311 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 1: because we're in a different political climate and everyone is 312 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: into AI, including investors. But I think the other one, 313 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: and this one to me is more subtle, is that 314 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,959 Speaker 1: Elon is going to be less of a factor in 315 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: the Tesla brand. They're you know, recent episode of jay 316 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: Leno's Car podcast I think it's called jay Leno's Garage 317 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: featured two Tesla executives not named Elon, Lars Moravi and 318 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,120 Speaker 1: Franz von Holhausen talking about the company and even this 319 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: un bylined marketing document that Elon is not talking about. 320 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: It feels like there's a little bit of an effort, 321 00:17:56,000 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: maybe even a deliberate effort underway to untangle you On 322 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: from the kind of like future of Tesla. Am I 323 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: just seeing things or is that is that real? Do 324 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: you think? 325 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 2: I think that the two are so intertwined. It's like 326 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 2: I can't think of another auto executive more intertwined with 327 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 2: the brand than like you have to go back to 328 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 2: like Leiahcoca and Chrysler to find someone else who is 329 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 2: like such a pitchman for the company. And that has 330 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 2: always been the sort of problem with Tesla is that 331 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 2: they don't really have a marketing team. They have influencers, 332 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 2: but like Elon has always been the public face of 333 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 2: the brand and the only person who can speak for 334 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,360 Speaker 2: the company until recently, and to your point, like now 335 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: they are putting more executives out there, but like Elon 336 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:39,119 Speaker 2: will forever be tied to Tesla, which is why so 337 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: many people who are upset about Trump being elected are 338 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 2: A will never buy a Tesla and B will never 339 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 2: step foot in a ROBOTAXI. Like that's the other thing, 340 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 2: Like how do you grow a ride hailing service where 341 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 2: the same people who like have stickers on their car 342 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 2: or are like selling their cars, like they're never gonna 343 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: set foot in these vehicles. Like it's He's been the 344 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 2: CEO of this company since two thousand and eight. He's 345 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:07,520 Speaker 2: like the longest tenured CEO Obeedny automaker currently. I don't 346 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: think you can decouple it like that easily. It's like 347 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 2: cemented in people's minds. 348 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 3: Forever, you know. I think there may be something to 349 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 3: this theory, and not necessarily by design, because if anyone 350 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 3: were to come to Elon and say, hey, Elon, you 351 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 3: know the problem. 352 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: We have is you're just a little too close. 353 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 3: To the company. People associate you with our cars a 354 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 3: little bit too much. Maybe we should back on down 355 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 3: from that they'd be thrown out. 356 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: You know. 357 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 3: Maybe there's someone very smartly behind the scenes in some 358 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 3: dark rooms at Tesla Austin who've drawn this up. But 359 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 3: I think to Danna's point, they're going to have a 360 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 3: really hard time actually executing it. If that's the case. 361 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: It just felt like, especially this weekend, Elon and Tesla 362 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: were pushing in two different directions. He was tweeting about 363 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,479 Speaker 1: the AfD. He was tweeting about far right UK issues. 364 00:19:54,520 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: Tommy Robinson, this extremely divisive figure in British politics. You know, 365 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 1: he's backing this far right political party in the UK. 366 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: Tesla's sales in Europe have been really bad, and so 367 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 1: it's like it's like, on one hand, Tesla is attempting 368 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 1: to kind of reset the narrative. On the other hand, 369 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: he law Musk is out there just doing his poster thing, 370 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: just posting about the most divisive stuff he could think of. 371 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 3: He is now getting behind a party that is to 372 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 3: the right of Nigel Farage right, a party that thinks 373 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 3: that Farage is soft on immigration. To give people a 374 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 3: sense of this is like, I don't know if in 375 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 3: the it's a US equivalent of trying to find someone 376 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 3: who thinks that Stephen Miller is too soft on immigrants, right, 377 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 3: And it is so incessant that his posting about the UK, 378 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 3: and before that it was all sorts of posting about 379 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 3: groc Imagine and you know what. 380 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: Age we talked about last week. I mean, I say 381 00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: porn companion, the barely legal right right right, sensual companion 382 00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:58,920 Speaker 1: that his company created. 383 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, and just getting this guy to post at all 384 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 3: about Tesla, it seems to be a chore. He'll repost 385 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 3: this master plan, he'll comment on somebody who was a 386 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:11,959 Speaker 3: little bit confused about Okay, so what are exactly the 387 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 3: next steps of executing this master plan? And that's where 388 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 3: we get his you know, eighty percent value posts. These 389 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 3: absolutely are just quick little divergences from the culture wars 390 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 3: and his chatbot. 391 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: All right, before we go, I just want to bring 392 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 1: up one last thing with you guys, And this is 393 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: going very deep in the kind of Elon universe, the 394 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: Tesla universe. But a bunch of fanboys noticed a new 395 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 1: potential new Tesla vehicle. Now I don't think Tesla has 396 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: given people any reason to think this is real, but 397 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: in a video that was released of the Tesla design studio. 398 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: In the very background you could see what looked like 399 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:58,719 Speaker 1: perhaps Dana a cyber truck suv, like an suv version 400 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: of the cyber truck. And I think the base for 401 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: this feels very very thin, But like it hasn't stopped 402 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: a bunch of like fan sites from writing articles about 403 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,679 Speaker 1: it with like little red circles around the relevant portion 404 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: of the video, leaving aside whether it's real or whether 405 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: it's not. And I think the answer is that it 406 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: is not real because Elon Musk has said over and 407 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,239 Speaker 1: over again that like autonomy is the only thing like 408 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: there's been actually no signaling about this. Plus like it 409 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: really seems like the steel architecture of the cyber truck 410 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: didn't really work. But do you think a cyber suv 411 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: would be a hit on the streets of the United 412 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: States of America or even in South Korea? 413 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: There has always been this question, like is Tesla gonna 414 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 2: make a different kind of truck? Would they ever make 415 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,719 Speaker 2: like a normal pickup truck, like a F one point fifty, 416 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 2: or would they try to tweak the cyber truck to 417 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: be less expensive in some way? And I saw Lawyer's 418 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 2: Mavi speak in the Bay Area a couple months ago, 419 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 2: and he was sort of like vague about it, like 420 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 2: they're always thinking of things. But to be clear, the 421 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 2: cyber truck was a complete flop, like that they is 422 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 2: not selling. It is wildly expensive. It is like the 423 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 2: poster child for Elon and politics. It has a niche audience, 424 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,959 Speaker 2: but it is nowhere on the S curve. And so 425 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 2: the fact that they would make like an suv version 426 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 2: of a failing product doesn't really make sense to me 427 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 2: because the cyber truck itself has not been successful. So 428 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess you could make a cyber truck suv, 429 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 2: but I don't know what the market would be for that. 430 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 2: The bottle why is really popular, that's their best selling car. 431 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: I don't know. 432 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: And then you look if you look at the as 433 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 2: your plan. You know, they've talked in the past about 434 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,359 Speaker 2: making the Robovan, So who knows. 435 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: Is it Robovan or Rebovin. 436 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 3: I don't think knows. Max. Yeah, yeah, this to me 437 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 3: felt like, you know, it's very Taylor Swiftian. The Swifties 438 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 3: talk about Easter eggs and her videos and lyrics and stuff. 439 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 3: This was a total Easter egg for the Tesla audience 440 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 3: to you know, very clearly, slip in a little something 441 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 3: from the design studio to get everybody excited, and we'll 442 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 3: see if it ever actually leaves that studio. 443 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: You're probably right, Craig is like, I don't know, you 444 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: put something in the background of a video, people are 445 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,199 Speaker 1: gonna see it. But yeah, very strange. Also like the 446 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: typical buyer of a three row suv, like, I'm not 447 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: sure that really fits with this sort of cyber truck. 448 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: Like if you you know, whatever it is, whatever the 449 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: cyber truck thing is, it feels like pretty far from 450 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: the kid houler. 451 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 2: The cyber truck is like a tank for the apocalypse, 452 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 2: and an suv is like you want to drive the 453 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: carpool to soccer, So. 454 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: I don't tell me, you know, the divorced dad's got 455 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: his kids like every other weekend or whatever, he's got 456 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: to take take around somehow. I guess like that's a possible. 457 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 3: I think Jeep is gonna be okay. I think is 458 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 3: we're arriving at it is our conclusion here, all right, 459 00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 3: Dana Hall, thank. 460 00:24:58,840 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: You for being here. 461 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 2: Always a pleasure. 462 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: Greg, thank you, thanks for having me. This episode was 463 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: produced by Stacy Wong and edited by Ana Maazarakis, Blake 464 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: Maple's Handles Engineering, and Dave Purcell fact checks. Our supervising 465 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: producer is Magnus Hendrickson. The Elnink theme is written and 466 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 1: performed by Taka Yazusawa and Alex Sagiera. Sage Bauman is 467 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,719 Speaker 1: the head of Bloomberg Podcast. A big thanks to our 468 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: supporters Joel Webber and Bradstone. I'm Max Chapkin. If you 469 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: have a minute, rate and review our show, it'll help 470 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: other listeners find us and we'll see you next week.