1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: The positive thing about this shift in the conversation towards 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: sober curious or beginning to think about your relationship with 3 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: alcohol earlier, is that it's so much easier to make 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: changes before you get to a place where you have 5 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: lost control, where you are dealing with major consequences in 6 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: your life. And so I love it that people are 7 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: starting to be more mindful and explore their relationship with alcohol. 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 2: What's going on? Hurdler's Emily A Vadi Here. 9 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 3: You are listening to episode two hundred and seventy three 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 3: of Hurdle, a wellness focused podcast where I connect with 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,919 Speaker 3: everyone from your favorite athletes to top experts and industry 12 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 3: CEOs about their highest highs, toughest moments, and everything in between. 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 3: We all go through hurdles in life, and my goal 14 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 3: through these discussions is to empower you to better navigate 15 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 3: yours and move with intention so that you can stride 16 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 3: towards your own big potential and of course have some 17 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 3: fun along the way. Today on the show, I am 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:11,839 Speaker 3: chatting all about sober curiosity with doctor Sarah Wakeman. She's 19 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 3: the senior medical director for the Mass General Hospital Substance 20 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 3: Use Disorder Initiative She's also the program director of the 21 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 3: Mass General Addiction Medicine Fellowship and an assistant Professor of 22 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 3: Medicine at Harvard Medical School. 23 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 2: AKA. This woman has a lot of knowledge to give 24 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 2: us on all things sober curiosity. 25 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 3: We kick off our discussion today by defining what it 26 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 3: means to be sober curious, and we also get into 27 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 3: the basics surrounding alcohol use disorder, which, believe it or not, 28 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 3: is extremely wide spread. Doctor Wakeman and I have a 29 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 3: really interesting conversation about what it means to be sober curious, 30 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 3: what incorporating this lifestyle into your every day might look like. 31 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 3: How to talk about your to forego alcohol if this 32 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 3: is something that is important to you, and that is 33 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 3: really purposeful, knowing your why if you are someone that 34 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 3: wants to reduce the amount of alcohol you're drinking, being 35 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 3: specific about. 36 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: Your why behind it. 37 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 3: Just like any major lifestyle change, when you have a 38 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 3: firm why, you can articulate why this specific act is 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 3: important to you, you are more likely to stick with it. 40 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: So we chat about that, and I also shed some light. 41 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 3: On what it was like for me to cut down 42 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 3: on alcohol over the past year, specifically last January, I 43 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 3: did a little experiment of sorts that really taught me 44 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 3: a lot about myself about the circumstances in which I 45 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 3: was reaching for alcohol. Really helped shape my perspective on 46 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 3: my personal relationship with drinking. As always, love interacting with 47 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 3: you about these episodes. So if you love what you're 48 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 3: listening to, share it on social, share it with a friends, 49 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 3: share it with the family member, and tag Hurdle. Find 50 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 3: the podcast over on social at Hurdle podcast. 51 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 2: I am over at Emily a body and. 52 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: If you have any more questions on sober curiosity or 53 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 3: anything else, I am all ears. You can ask me 54 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 3: a question by leaving me a voice message. The link 55 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 3: to do that is in the show notes and be 56 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 3: featured in an upcoming episode of the show. With that, 57 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 3: let's get to it. Let's get to hurdling. Today, I 58 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 3: am sitting down with doctor Sarah Wakeman. She's the senior 59 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 3: medical director for Substance Use Disorder at Mass General Brigham. 60 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: How are you doing today, Sarah, I'm doing great, Thanks 61 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: for having me. 62 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: Thank you for coming in. 63 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 3: This is a topic that I have wanted to chat 64 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 3: with someone about for some time, and I was waiting 65 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: for the right person to do it with, So I 66 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 3: couldn't be happier that we're here to sit down today 67 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 3: and chat a little bit about sober curiosity, alcohol consumption, 68 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 3: all the things. Over the last few years, the concept 69 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 3: of sober curiosity has been trending like wildfire. 70 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: Is that what you're finding in your practice as well? 71 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: You know, I'm seeing it more and more just as 72 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: a member of society and being on social media and 73 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 1: reading about it, and as an addiction specialist. You know, 74 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: I think it's great that we're starting to talk more 75 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: about the full spectrum of substance use and recognizing that 76 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: it is a spectrum that people can fall anywhere along 77 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: that from not using any type of substance, including alcohol, 78 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 1: to using in a way that doesn't have any problems 79 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: associated with it, to using in a way that maybe 80 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: you just feel like you don't like the impact on 81 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: your life or the way you feel after drinking, or 82 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: it may be affecting a relationship or your work, but 83 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: you don't actually meet criteria for what we think of 84 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: as alcohol use disorder. And then all the way, of 85 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: course to that far end of the spectrum. And that's 86 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: so important because for a long time, I think we've 87 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: only thought of substance use problems as being really a 88 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 1: binary either you have a problem where you don't, and 89 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: the reality is that's not true. It is a full continuum. 90 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,280 Speaker 1: And so expanding that conversation in the general public I 91 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,359 Speaker 1: think is a really really important change. 92 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's a really interesting point to shed some 93 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 3: light on here, is that there is such a spectrum 94 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 3: on what different levels of substance abuse might look like. Now, 95 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 3: first and foremost, let's talk about alcohol's impact on the body. 96 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: Where do we even begin. 97 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,000 Speaker 1: I know there's so much, and I think, you know, 98 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: my hope is to not demonize anything, and so you 99 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 1: won't hear that from me. I think, sort of stepping back, 100 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: it's been really interesting to watch this swing from the 101 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: kind of conversation in popular media used to be around 102 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: sort of the protective effects of low risk drinking. You 103 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 1: know that it was good for your heart or that 104 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: it had health related benefits, And now we've seen this 105 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: very different swing than any amount of alcohol is not 106 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: good for your health. And I think, stepping back, it's 107 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: important to understand the evidence and also to not think 108 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: of using alcohol as a health promoting behavior. You know, 109 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: if you are looking to improve your health. There's no 110 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 1: amount of alcohol that is going to be sort of 111 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: beneficial in terms of your health outcomes. Now that doesn't 112 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 1: mean that it's a black and white or that using 113 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: lower risk amounts of alcohol are hugely detrimental to your health, 114 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: but just we shouldn't be thinking about starting drinking as 115 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: a healthy thing, just like you know, there are other 116 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: habits like exercise or brushing your teeth where it's pretty 117 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: much more is better or up to a point, and 118 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: that's not going to be the case of alcohol. You know. 119 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: More recent evidence has really expanded our understanding of the 120 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: health harms of alcohol use, in particular cancer risk for women. 121 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: That's really relevant because any amount of alcol use is 122 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: associated with an increased risk of breast cancer. But there's 123 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: also all different types of cancer that are associated without 124 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: call use, including cancers of your stomach and your intestinal track, 125 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: liver cancer, breast cancer as I mentioned, and then other 126 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: health problems from everything sort of relatively minor like acid 127 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: reflux or heartburn to much more severe problems. As an 128 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: addiction specialist, of course, we worry about alcohol use disorder, 129 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: which is also a chronic health condition that can cause 130 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: really huge impacts on people's lives in their physical and 131 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: mental health. 132 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 3: So when it comes to alcohol use disorder, talk to 133 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 3: me about what characterizes that. 134 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, so alcohol use disorders defined as compulsively using alcohol 135 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: despite bad things happening to you in your life. So 136 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: we make the diagnosis based on eleven criteria, but they 137 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: really boil down to a couple main buckets. Wanting to 138 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: control your use and not being able to. So that 139 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: might look like you've tried to cut back, or you've 140 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: tried to stop and you found that you actually couldn't 141 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: once you sent your mind to it. It looks like 142 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: using to spite consequences. So that can mean using despite 143 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: having problems in your relationships and your ability to do 144 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 1: the things that are important to you in your life 145 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: like parent or work, or using despite bad consequences in 146 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: your health. So if a doctor has said to you, 147 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: you know, you have inflammation of your liver because of 148 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: alcohol use, and I recommend that you stop using alcohol, 149 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: and you find that you're not able to stop, and 150 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: you continue using despite that, and then the other main 151 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: bucket is craving, which is sort of the strong psychological 152 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: urge to want to use a substance. So that's the 153 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: idea that you just like can't get it out of 154 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 1: your mind. You're thinking about getting to that drink that 155 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: you really find yourself mentally consumed by the idea of 156 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: using alcohol. And so those are kind of the main buckets. 157 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: And then depending on how many criteria you meet, you 158 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: can either have a mild alcohol use disorder, a moderate 159 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: alcohol use disorder, a severe alcohol use disorder. 160 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 161 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: And you know, listening to you explain all of these 162 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 3: different buckets and then again hearing the word disorder, I 163 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 3: think so often, so many individuals think, oh, it's just 164 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 3: a drink, it's a drink every night, it's two drinks 165 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 3: a night, it's something like this, And to hear that 166 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 3: buzzword disorder with this can be really scary. 167 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's totally true. And I think 168 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: it's important to have these conversations and really talk honestly 169 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: about the potential harms. I think the good news is 170 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: that this is a very treatable health condition and wherever 171 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: you fall on that spectrum, it is very possible to 172 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: get how and to make changes to your alcohol use. 173 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 1: And I think the positive thing about this shift in 174 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: the conversation towards sober, curious or beginning to think about 175 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: your relationship with alcohol earlier. Is that it's so much 176 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: easier to make changes before you get to a place 177 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: where you have lost control, where you are dealing with 178 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 1: major consequences in your life. And so I love it 179 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: that people are starting to be more mindful and explore 180 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: their relationship with alcohol. 181 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, doctor Weakman. 182 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 3: I noticed before when we were touching upon the concept 183 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 3: of the swinging of the media rate and for so long, 184 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 3: especially when I was an editor at traditional women's media outlets, 185 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 3: we would cover studies that set things like one glass 186 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 3: of red wine today is really good for you? And 187 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 3: now yes, it has gone completely the other ways that 188 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 3: alcohol is awful, Alcohol is awful, alcohol is a devil. 189 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 3: Is there any truth to the former? 190 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? 191 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: So there was long this sense of this idea that 192 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: when people looked at big population studies, they found that 193 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: people who drank at a low risk level, like a 194 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: glass of wine a day, actually had lower of dying 195 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: from heart disease, and people who didn't drink at all, 196 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: or people who drank very heavily. And that's actually still true. 197 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: The problem is that those studies, when you look at 198 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 1: people who choose not to drink. It's actually a very 199 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: mixed bucket. And some people who choose not to drink 200 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: do so because they're really ill with other medical problems 201 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: or because they're actually in recovery from alcohol use disorder. 202 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: And so the newer sort of wave of population data 203 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: has looked and has sort of redefined how we do 204 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: the comparison groups. Now, the health harms in that low 205 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: risk group are still pretty low, So I think it 206 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: is important not to over pathologize or sort of overscare 207 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: people about substance use, like, yes, there are linear risks 208 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: to cancer association without caol use. And also if you're drinking, 209 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: you know, under lower risk drinking limits, which is really 210 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: seven drinks a week for a woman or fourteen drinks 211 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: a week for a man under sixty five, the association 212 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: with significant health risk is very very low. So I 213 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: think the real opportunity here is to think about people's 214 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: relationship with alcohol. What positives do they get in their life, 215 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: what are the downsides, what are their personal goals when 216 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: it comes to their health. What's their personal family history? 217 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: So if you have a strong family history of breast cancer, 218 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: for example, or you're in remission from breast cancer. Your 219 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: decisions about alcohol are probably going to be very different 220 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 1: from someone who doesn't have those risks, So I think 221 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: it just opens us up to a much more nuanced 222 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 1: conversation to really explore kind of the pros and cons. 223 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 3: Definitely, So let's then transition into this conversation surrounding sober curiosity, 224 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 3: and it's very foundation. 225 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,079 Speaker 2: What does it mean to be a sober curious person? 226 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 1: You know? I think this is one of those themes 227 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: where there's not a totally clear definition, but generally it 228 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: means people who are beginning to explore their relationship with 229 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: alcohol and decide to have periods where they're not drinking. 230 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: So a common sort of version of this that began, 231 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: you know, many years ago, was this idea of dry January, 232 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 1: which was a change that people would make. They'd sort 233 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: of challenge themselves to not drink for the month of January, 234 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: and I think it was an interesting trend that did 235 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 1: allow people to just sort of step back and take 236 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: a pause and be more mindful about what role alcohol 237 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: played in their life. And that has since expanded to people, 238 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 1: you know, outside of January, just in their life thinking well, 239 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: maybe I don't want to drink during the week, or 240 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: maybe I don't want to drink at all, or maybe 241 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: I want to drink less without having to sort of again, 242 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: see this binary of like I have an alcohol use 243 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: disorder and therefore need treatment and going into recovery instead. 244 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: Just there's a continuum here, and for whatever reason, I 245 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 1: feel better drinking less or not drinking at all, and 246 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to make that health related choice for myself. 247 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 3: Just for the context of this conversation of your comfortable sharing. 248 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 3: Do you consume alcohol? Yes, I do, Okay, so I 249 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 3: also consume alcohol. But for your point talking about dry January, 250 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 3: I at the most have done what was like a 251 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 3: modified dry January in my past, where I would not 252 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 3: drink during the week, I would allow myself to drink 253 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 3: on Saturdays. And the other caveat was if I happened 254 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 3: to have a date, which I actually found was a 255 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: motivating way for me to try dating more last year. 256 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 3: So I'm hearing you when you're talking about the different 257 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 3: parameters that people place around it just experimenting to see 258 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 3: how they feel with or without consuming regularly exactly. 259 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: You know, people may find that they sleep better, or 260 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: they feel better in the morning, or they're able to 261 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: get more work done in the evening if they didn't 262 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: drink with dinner, or that they lose some weight if 263 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: that's a goal for them. And so I think it's, 264 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: like many things, being mindful of your behaviors is actually 265 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: an intervention in and of itself. So if you take 266 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: something like eating or exercise, you know, often we'll encourage 267 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: people as a first step to just be more mindful, 268 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 1: like how much are you eating? When are you snacking? 269 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: Are you getting to the gym? And to sort of 270 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: understand are there areas where their current behaviors are getting 271 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: in the wave goals that they have for themselves. And 272 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: so I sort of think of this sober curious as 273 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: a part of that to really be mindful, think about 274 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: there maybe times when having a glass of wine with 275 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 1: dinner is a wonderful thing and it allows you to 276 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: enjoy the food more, allows you to have fun whatever 277 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: social setting you're in, and that's not a bad thing. 278 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: And also you. 279 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: May find that like, hey, I'm drinking two or three 280 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: glasses of one a night, I feel really crummy. You know, 281 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: my skin doesn't look great, I've gained some weight, I'm 282 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: having more heartburn and that's a great moment to pause 283 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: and say, you know, this is not actually where I 284 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 1: want my life to be or the way I want 285 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: alcohol to be functioning in my life, and so therefrom 286 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: to make this very intentional change. 287 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, we've kind of covered here some of the things 288 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 3: that can happen if you are involving a decent amount 289 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 3: of alcohol in your regular rotation. Inversely, let's touch on 290 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 3: some of the health benefits that go hand in hand 291 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 3: with lowering or cutting out your alcohol intake. 292 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. I think first it's really important for people 293 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: to have those kind of general numbers in their mind 294 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: of what are lower risk drinking limits. And I mentioned 295 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: that before, but I'll say it again because I think 296 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: we don't talk about it enough with the average public. 297 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: So it's seven drinks a week for a woman or 298 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: anyone over sixty five, and no more than three drinks 299 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: on a drinking occasion, So you can't like save up 300 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: all seven for Saturday night. You know, it's really thinking 301 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: about cutting back and thinking of your overall weekly intake. 302 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: And then for men under sixty five, it's fourteen drinks 303 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: a week and no more than four on an occasion. 304 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: So I think those are helpfuln if you know, like, oh, 305 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: I have this party coming up, and I know I'm 306 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: likely to have two or three drinks, then maybe you 307 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: don't drink during the week and you're still sort of 308 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: keeping within that seven or so drink per week limit, 309 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: And it just gives people a benchmark of what is 310 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: a lower risk level. And what that means is that 311 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,840 Speaker 1: in big studies, when people are drinking consistently above those limits, 312 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: we start to see more health related problems, and that 313 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: can take lots of different forms. So we talked about 314 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: cancer risk, you know, there's also risk to your liver, 315 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 1: including sort of liver inflammation and liver fibrosis or scarring. 316 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: And that's a really scary one that's good to mention 317 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: because you know, we've seen actually since COVID, this really 318 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: increasing rate of serious liver damage to very young people, 319 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: like people in their thirties who are coming into the 320 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: hospital in fulminent sort of at death's door liver failure 321 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: from alcohol use. And they had no idea that that 322 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: could happen at such an early age. And those are 323 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: some of the most devastating cases that I see in 324 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: the inpatient hospital setting, people that literally didn't know, had 325 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: no idea that could get that sick that early and 326 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: are coming in and sometimes do actually die from that. 327 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: So so liver is a big one. But then there's 328 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: also lots of other ways that alcohol can impact your 329 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: health and cutting back can make you feel better. So 330 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: one is your mood. We know that drinking alcohol can 331 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: be related worsening sort of depression and anxiety, and so 332 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: cutting back or stopping may help your mood feel better. 333 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: Sleep is a big one. Even though people think about 334 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: alcohol helping you fall asleep, it actually leads to really 335 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: disordered sleep architecture. So if you've ever drank too much, 336 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: you may fall asleep easily, but then wake up feeling 337 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: really not refreshed. I mean that's a reminder of alcohol 338 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: sort of disruption to your sleep. So sleep definitely gets better. 339 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: You know, weight, there's a lot of calories and alcohol, 340 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: so if you are trying to watch your weight, if 341 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: you have diabetes or pre diabetes, cutting back on alcohol 342 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: could be really beneficial in that way. And then drinking 343 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: at high levels can actually cause heart problems and elevated 344 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: blood pressure. So if you you know someone who has 345 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: high blood pressure or a family history highlod pres sure, 346 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: you know, that's another area where you might think of 347 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: coming back. 348 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 3: I love this term sleep architecture. I'm not entirely sure 349 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 3: if I've heard it before referencing sleep quality. 350 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 2: That's a super important takeaway. 351 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 3: And I know something that I've been focusing on a 352 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 3: lot over the last few years. A couple of things 353 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 3: that I do want to double click on. Here, the 354 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 3: seven for women versus the fourteen for men? What is 355 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 3: that based on a side from perhaps general stature between 356 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 3: the sexes. 357 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, so women tend to have a higher percentage of 358 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,719 Speaker 1: body fat than men, and also they metabolize alcohols slightly different, 359 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: So the amount of alcohol you need to get to 360 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: the same sort of level of intoxication or blood alcohol 361 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: content is different between biological sexes. 362 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 2: Got it? 363 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 3: And then you touched on the liver scarring, which really 364 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 3: like sent some whistles off in my head. You said, 365 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 3: you're seeing more and more patients coming in unsure that 366 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 3: this could happen to them at such a young age. 367 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 3: Helpful to hear a little bit perhaps about the symptoms 368 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 3: that go hand in hand with that, so someone might 369 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 3: be able to have some insight on what that could 370 00:17:59,359 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 3: look like for them. 371 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, So when you start having liver problems, the 372 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: kind of spectrum that happens is first inflammation in your liver, 373 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: and then that can progress to really severe what we 374 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: call hepatitis. Maybe your whole liver is inflamed or then 375 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: even scarring, which at this sort of advanced end is 376 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: called crhosis. And people have maybe heard of sorrhosis, and 377 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: I think most of us have in our mind that 378 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: that's something that happens to like people in their sixties 379 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: after decades of drinking heavily. But we are seeing people 380 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: in their late twenties or early thirties. You're coming in with sorrhosis, 381 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: which is really scary and something that I think is 382 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: important for people to know about. If you were starting 383 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: to have really serious liver inflammation or liver problems, that 384 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: things to watch out for would be pain in the 385 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: right upper side of your belly, so your liver sits 386 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,479 Speaker 1: right under your ribs on the right side. As that 387 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: gets worse, you may see changes to your skin color. 388 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: So if your skin or your eyes start looking yellow, 389 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,880 Speaker 1: or changes to your urine, if your urine starts looking 390 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: really dark, like kind of Coca cola colored or tea colored. 391 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: Those are some of the signs that you would see 392 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: as that progresses. 393 00:18:59,240 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 2: Super helps. 394 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 3: So here we're talking about how clearly there is a 395 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 3: rise in the interest around sober curiosity, clearly starting with 396 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 3: that idea, that concept, that occasion of the dry January. 397 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 3: Do you have any information perhaps on just how many 398 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 3: people are trying to get on board with this movement? 399 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,120 Speaker 1: You know, I don't think there's any good data. I've 400 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: looked into this, and I think because it is sort 401 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: of a social movement, it's not something that's been well captured. 402 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: You know. I think we know most Americans consume alcohol, 403 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: and many people actually will meet criteria for an alcohol 404 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 1: use disorder. So around fifteen percent of people at some 405 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: point we'll meet criteria for alcoholics disorders. This is not 406 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: an uncommon health condition. And I think, you know, social 407 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 1: media and news articles are any hint it definitely this 408 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: idea of sober curious and even the companies that are 409 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: coming from it. You know, there's lots more sort of 410 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: alcohol free, interesting beverage companies that are out there that 411 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,359 Speaker 1: I think are really pitching themselves to this group of 412 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: people who want to begin to think differently about how 413 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 1: they use alcohol. And so it seems to be growing 414 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: in popularity, but I think the data is still limited. 415 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 3: The alcohol alternative beverages are really interesting to me because 416 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 3: some of them are truly taking over the shelves at 417 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 3: both my traditional liquor store as well as within my 418 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 3: grocery store. I do know that there are some things 419 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 3: to be mindful of when you're looking at these beverages. Specifically, 420 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 3: what comes first and foremost to mine is the sugar 421 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 3: content that is in some of these. What else should 422 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 3: you be looking at when you are looking at a 423 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 3: non alcoholic alternative in lieu of one of its alcoholic cousins. 424 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you know, if you are well. For everyone, 425 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: having a ton of sugar is not a great thing. 426 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: But if certainly, if you're watching your weight or if you 427 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: have diabetes, being mindful of the calories and the sugar 428 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: and it is important. 429 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 2: I think you know. 430 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: The other thing to be cautious of, as many of 431 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: them are marketing themselves as sort of having other herbal properties, 432 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 1: that they're relaxing, or that they have certain sort of 433 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 1: alternative herbal product in them, and that that's always something 434 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 1: just to be careful with because those are often unregulated 435 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 1: in terms of what they say it's going to do. 436 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: So I've seen them, you know my Instagram feed saying 437 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: it's gonna it has this vitamin in it and it's 438 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: going to cause this mindfulness or relaxation, and just to 439 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: be aware that there's no sort of oversight and in 440 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: that type of regulation. So I think generally finding something 441 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: fun to drink that doesn't have alcohol and is a 442 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: healthier alternative if you're making changes to your use, can 443 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: be a really great thing, and it gives you something, 444 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: you know, that's more fun than just water, if that, 445 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,360 Speaker 1: if that helps, and may taste good and is just 446 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: broadening your range of options in social settings, which can 447 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: be helpful too. 448 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I feel like adaptagens are in absolutely 449 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 3: everything now. So I hear you on all the extra 450 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 3: little additives that we're finding in these beverages. Aside from 451 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 3: leaning into NA options, for someone who is interested in 452 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 3: a sober curious lifestyle, what are some other ways that 453 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 3: they can ease into it and what should they avoid? 454 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: I would say probably the first thing is to just 455 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: take stock of your alcohol use. So I would spend 456 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: a week or a month sort of journaling, like keeping 457 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,119 Speaker 1: track of when do you drink, what situations are you 458 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: drinking in, how do you feel the next day? I 459 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: think that mindfulness is really important. And then if you 460 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: want to make a change, any change, but especially with 461 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 1: alcohol use, it's important to know what your why is. 462 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: You know, people don't change unless they have a reason change. 463 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: Change is very hard, and so it's important to have 464 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: something that you're working towards and to make that as 465 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 1: specific and sort of personalized and measurable as possible. So 466 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: just saying something vague like I'm going to cut back 467 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: on alcohol because alcohol is bad, it's not very likely 468 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: or going to make that change, right, That's like a 469 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: very vague sort of general statement. There's no real why there. 470 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: But instead to say, you know, my goal this year 471 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: is to run my first marathon, and in order to 472 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: get up and do my long runs on the weekend, 473 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: I need to have a good sleep and so therefore 474 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: I'm not going to drink more than two nights a 475 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: week and I'm going to keep it to two drinks 476 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 1: a night. Like that's a very calm, create very measurable 477 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: goal that is actually linked to something that you're also 478 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: working on, or maybe it's something totally different. Maybe it's 479 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: that you know you want to get better sleep during 480 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: the week and so you're only going to drink on 481 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: Friday Saturday. But I think that type of idea of 482 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: really specific, measurable and sort of centered on your goals 483 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: as your why, is really important. And then the last 484 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: thing is let people know about it. I think we're 485 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: all humans are much more likely to change if they 486 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 1: make themselves accountable. So whether that's sharing it on social media, 487 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: sharing it with your friends, or your partner putting it 488 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 1: up on your refrigerator so you sort of see your 489 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: goal that you're working towards, whatever works for you. But 490 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: I think bringing people in so that the people that 491 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: love you and that you're interacting with regularly can help 492 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: support and reinforce and maybe even make changes too, if 493 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: this is really something that you're working on, Because whenever 494 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 1: you make a change, the easier we can make it, 495 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 1: the more likely it is that you'll adapt it. So 496 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: if you have friends who are texting you to go 497 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: out for drinks every night and you're trying to cut back, 498 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: or they're offering you wine when you come over, it's 499 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: going to be a lot harder than if your friends 500 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: are on board and say, hey, I know you're trying 501 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: to make this change, and so let's go for a 502 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: walk instead, or go you know, go out to a movie, 503 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:02,959 Speaker 1: or do something that doesn't involve alcohol. 504 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 3: Taking a break from today's episode to give some love 505 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 3: to something that's been in my personal wellness toolbox for 506 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 3: years now. 507 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 2: That is a g one. 508 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 3: It's my all in one daily greens powder that's got 509 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 3: seventy five vitamins, minerals, and whole food sourced nutrients in 510 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 3: one convenient daily serving with the antioxidant equivalent of twelve 511 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 3: servings of fruits and vegetables, as well as probiotics, probiotics, adaptagens, 512 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,719 Speaker 3: and superfoods. It's hard for me to think about what 513 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 3: my life was like before I was regularly incorporating ag 514 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 3: one into my routine. 515 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 2: No matter what is. 516 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 3: Going on with my diet, how often I'm eating out, 517 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 3: especially with the holidays, this can get a little bit 518 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 3: nutty this time of year. I know that beginning of 519 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 3: my day with ag one is me doing something really 520 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 3: good and investing in my own personal health and wellbeing. 521 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,840 Speaker 3: With ag one, I have notable benefits to my energy levels. 522 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 3: I feel more motivated and it actually tastes good, and 523 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 3: I don't say that like it tastes good for a 524 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 3: greenspowder like I look forward to drinking my ag one 525 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 3: every single day as a standalone product. Of course, ag 526 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 3: one has a deal for you if you want to 527 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 3: get in on the gang today. 528 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 2: Cannot recommend it enough. 529 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 3: Head on over to drinkag one dot com slash hurdle 530 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 3: to get five free travel backs and a year's supply 531 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:38,879 Speaker 3: of Vitamin D absolutely free. Again, head on over to 532 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 3: drink ag one dot com slash hurdle to get a 533 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 3: year's supply of Vitamin D as well as five free 534 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 3: travel backs with your order. 535 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely. 536 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 3: I'm happy you brought up the friendships relationships angle and 537 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 3: getting them on board with your choices. I think this 538 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 3: can also shed a lot of light on the different 539 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 3: relationships you have in your life. If you are realizing 540 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 3: that the people that you thought supported you are actually 541 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 3: really resistant to your choice. For someone that is dealing 542 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 3: with this conflict, so to speak, a little bit of 543 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 3: friction when it comes to adopting this new lifestyle within 544 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 3: their relationships, what advice do you have for them? 545 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that can be really tough and also 546 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: really enlightening to see that you know. I'd suggest first 547 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: sharing your why, your purpose with that friend if they're 548 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,679 Speaker 1: truly someone that loves and supports you, even if you 549 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: know this choice may make them a little uncomfortable or 550 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: they may not see sort of the reason behind it, 551 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: if you explain that and why you want their help 552 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: and sort of bring them in to be a partner 553 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: with you, I think that that often can help. So 554 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: to against explain what your goal is and ask them 555 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 1: for a concrete thing, like do you think next week 556 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 1: we could go to yoga class together instead of meeting 557 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: for drinks, so that they're then contributing and film like 558 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 1: they're a partner with you and that there's something very 559 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: clear that they can do. That's still nice. If you 560 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: find that someone's really like actively resisting that or sabotaging 561 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: your goals, you may need to take a more active 562 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: role on sort of removing yourself from different pieces of 563 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 1: that relationship. You know, maybe that you are really thoughtful 564 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: about what sort of things you say yes to and 565 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: which times you make plans with that person, and then 566 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, you know, we do 567 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: sometimes outgrow relationships, and if you have decided that there's 568 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: something that really matters to you and a person that 569 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 1: you love doesn't support you on that. That is always 570 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: a little worrisome because you know, relationships, friendship or otherwise should 571 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:37,959 Speaker 1: be about helping you be your best self, whatever that 572 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:38,479 Speaker 1: means to you. 573 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: Definitely, Yeah, it's certainly something you see all over social media, 574 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 3: to say the least, if someone's talking about their decision 575 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 3: not to drink, or perhaps the fact that they simply 576 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 3: just enjoy drinking a mocktail more than a cocktail. That 577 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 3: comments are always written with individuals who have many opinions 578 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 3: on this, and sometimes it's truly candidly frightening to see. 579 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, And you know, I think sometimes when you 580 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: see that type of reaction, it may be that that 581 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: person's feeling a little uncomfortable about their own choices. You know, 582 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: it can be that you're shining a light or holding 583 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,639 Speaker 1: up a mirror that makes them have to reflect a 584 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 1: little bit on alcohol's role in their life. And so 585 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: I think I was trying to approach those situations with 586 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: the most generous interpretation that maybe this person is struggling 587 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: or doesn't understand why this is important to me. But 588 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,959 Speaker 1: if they're struggling. I think the important thing to know 589 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: is that there is help out there. And that's the 590 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: other side of sober curious, is that for people who 591 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 1: try to make these changes and actually find whoa this 592 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: is actually harder than I thought it was going to be, 593 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: and maybe alcohols playing a different role in my life 594 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: than I realize. To know that treatment is available, treatment works, 595 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: Most people get better even when they have truly meet 596 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: criteria for an alcohol you stack disorder. 597 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 3: I do think that this is another good opportunity when 598 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 3: we're talking about relationships, to talk about how one can 599 00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 3: transition socially when alcohol otherwise is traditionally a central point 600 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 3: of gathering. What advice do you have for someone who 601 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 3: is interested in sober curiosity and maybe removing alcohol entirely 602 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 3: from their regular routine, but is scared about some of 603 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 3: the repercussions of that. 604 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think early on the answer to that's different 605 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: than later. So the hardest time to make a change 606 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: is the first sort of three months. Once you get 607 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: used to something and you start to see the benefits 608 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: and you're more familiar with your routines, it becomes easier 609 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: and easier. But in those early months, if this really 610 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 1: matters to you, and you're making this change, you want 611 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 1: to set yourself up for success, and so that may 612 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: mean making really thoughtful decisions about what types of activities 613 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: you're doing, who you're surrounding yourself with, how you're connecting 614 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: with people. I think, thankfully, especially as we emerge from 615 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: the acute pandemic phases, there are more wonderful and diverse 616 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: range of in person activities you can do with people 617 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: you know. Many people who are making changes to their 618 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 1: alcohol use are also thinking about other health benefits, and 619 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: so there's obviously lots of health related activities you can do, 620 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: running groups, yoga, mindfulness, getting involved, and something that doesn't 621 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: center around alcohol. And so maybe that's joining like an 622 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: adult physical activity group like a running group, or maybe 623 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: it's running a book group, or something that doesn't center 624 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: on sort of a social activity that's in a bar 625 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: or revolving around sort of alcohol and a meal. If 626 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: you're going over to someone's house, you can offer to 627 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 1: bring something, bring a mocktail, bring you know, whatever flavor 628 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: of sprinkling water you'd like, so that you have an 629 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: easy thing that you can put in your hand and 630 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: sort of know that that's your plan walking in and 631 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: then over time as you become more comfortable that I 632 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: think you can loosen that up a little bit, you know, 633 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 1: like anything else. The maintenance phase is different than that 634 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: early change phase, but I do think those early days 635 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: you want to make it as easy as possible to 636 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: not have alkoho on your mind and not be sort 637 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: of having the default be that you have a drink 638 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: in your hand. 639 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. 640 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 3: This really brings me back to when I was in 641 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 3: the height of my personal weight loss journey and I 642 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 3: had such a target, such tunnel vision on what my 643 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 3: goal was that I really adapted the behaviors when it 644 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 3: came to going out to eat, specifically with friends. That 645 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 3: wasn't centralizing around alcohol at that time. It was centralizing 646 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 3: around the different types of foods that I wanted to 647 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 3: be around. 648 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 2: But I knew that there were certain circumstances. 649 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 3: That actually made me feel good versus situations that made 650 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 3: me feel out of control and being able to temper that. 651 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 3: As I moved forward in that journey and get to 652 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 3: what you're calling the maintenance phase. Now at this chapter 653 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 3: of my life, it's very different when it comes to 654 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 3: making plans and going out to eat and whatnot. But 655 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,719 Speaker 3: in the height of that different era, it was entirely different. 656 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 3: So I do think that there is a bit of 657 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 3: comfort after you are able to articulate your why, knowing 658 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 3: that there might be some discomfort at one period, But 659 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 3: that doesn't mean that it's going to feel like that forever. 660 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's so important. And what you just described, 661 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: you know, you built a new skill set and a 662 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: new toolkit over that time too, and so you're in 663 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: a different place, you know, three six, nine months down 664 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 1: the road than you are when you're starting out. Your 665 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: confidence in your ability to make different deccisions around food, 666 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,200 Speaker 1: you're sort of seeing all the positive benefits and focus 667 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: on your goal. That changes over time too, And the 668 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: SAME's true for alcohol. I think food is often a 669 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 1: really great one to think about because I think many 670 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: of us understand sort of complicated relationships of food and 671 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: the spectrum of food and weight related issues and an 672 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: alcohol in a very similar way, you know, making different decisions. 673 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: You can't avoid it entirely, just like you can't avoid 674 00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: food entirely. It's everywhere that you look. But really consciously 675 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: setting yourself up for success to meet whatever goal you 676 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: have in mind. 677 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 3: Definitely now I know another topic that a lot of 678 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 3: individuals have questions on when it comes to sober curiosity 679 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 3: is athletic performance. 680 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 2: Generally speaking, let's go broad here. 681 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 3: Can you enjoy alcohol regularly without hurting your athletic performance? 682 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question. I think, you know, depends 683 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: a little on what performance you're aiming for. So if 684 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: you're training for the Olympics, you know, probably you don't 685 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: want to drink, and you also are making lots of 686 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: other decisions about sort of absolutely maximizing your athletic performance. 687 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: If you are, you know, running your first race, or 688 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: trying to stay in shape, or you know, making it 689 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: to peloton every morning, you know drinking in those lower 690 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: risk levels is probably not going to get in the way. 691 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: So I think it's not an absolute question one way 692 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: or the other, And again depends on those other goals 693 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: you know you're sensing. I always have this kind of 694 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: nuanced answer, but I do think it's such an important 695 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: way to recognize that these are issues that have lots 696 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: of different factors that play into them. And I remember 697 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 1: talking to a dear colleague of mine who is a 698 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: leading alcohol expert in the globe, really and I knew 699 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: that he would drink an occasional cocktail. He wasn't someone 700 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: who didn't drink at all, And I was interested in 701 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: his perspective on all of these new studies showing that 702 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: really there was no safe amount of alcohol. And his 703 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: perspective was that our framing had been all wrong. This 704 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: idea that you would ever drink for your health was 705 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 1: really the wrong way to think about it, and that 706 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: we do many things like driving a car, or go 707 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: swimming or eat bacon that don't have zero risk. Many 708 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 1: things that we enjoy in life have some amount of 709 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: risk attached to them, and then we make calculated decisions 710 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: on sort of how much risk are we comfortable taking 711 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: and where do we want to cut back, based on 712 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,400 Speaker 1: our own life and what our sort of goals are 713 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:16,839 Speaker 1: and what our personal situation is. And I think that's 714 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,839 Speaker 1: probably the best way to think of alcohol, That it's 715 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: not something to start for health related reasons. And also 716 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: there are many things that we find pleasure and that 717 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: don't have health related benefits associated with them. 718 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 3: That eating bacon, man, that's really going to be the 719 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 3: thing that gets you at the end, right totally, If 720 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,120 Speaker 3: I go out because I'm eating bacon, then I feel 721 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 3: like I'm doing it right now. We did address perhaps 722 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 3: some of the things to be mindful of when it 723 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 3: comes to choosing your NA beverage, but when it comes 724 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 3: to your choice alcohol, what should we be cognizant of? 725 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: You know, so generally a drink is a drink, but 726 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 1: having some sense of what the equivalence is across drinks. 727 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: So you know, a shot of liquor versus a glas 728 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,919 Speaker 1: glass of wine versus a can of beer, we really 729 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: sort of equate based on the grams of alcohol that 730 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,760 Speaker 1: are in that. So it's roughly kind of five ounces 731 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: of table wine. You know, a can of regular alcohol 732 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: by volume content beer or one and a half ounces 733 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,760 Speaker 1: of liquor would be equivalent in terms of the drink ratio. 734 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: You know, the lower alcohol by volume beverages are, you're 735 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: going to be able to drink more without running into trouble. 736 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 1: So that's one thing. If you're drinking, you know, a 737 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 1: martini is going to have a lot more alcohol in 738 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: it than if you're drinking a glass of you know, 739 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,240 Speaker 1: twelve percent abb wine at the table. So just thinking 740 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: roughly that it's about the grams of alcohol that matter, 741 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 1: and so therefore the volume contributes. I think, you know, 742 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: does red wine have more sort of antioxidants, maybe, but 743 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: that's not really why we should be drinking red wine. 744 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: So I wouldn't really think in the realm of like 745 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: one is healthier than the other. I would just think 746 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: of it as sort of the equivalence of drinks across. 747 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: And then we've talked a lot about sort of sugar 748 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: and weight and health, and definitely there's lots of like 749 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,919 Speaker 1: cocktails out there that have lots of sugar in them 750 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 1: and lots of other things. So if you are being 751 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: mindful of that, you know, being thoughtful about the what 752 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: sort of the context, the composition of whatever drink it 753 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: is that you're drinking is in. And then lastly, if 754 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,320 Speaker 1: you're trying to make changes, you know in the realm 755 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: of not all or nothing, but just cutting back, mixing 756 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: up your drinking, so you may like start with a 757 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: glass of seltzer, have a glass of wine, switch back 758 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,719 Speaker 1: to seltzer, so that it doesn't have to be that 759 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: just because you're drinking, you're going to drink the whole 760 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: night and everything that you order is an alcoholic beverage. 761 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: But to give yourself some choice within that too, can 762 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 1: be helpful. 763 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's really really helpful recommendation there. I 764 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 3: love the Seltzer on and off. Now, I know we 765 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 3: started this conversation chatting about alcohol use disorder, and I 766 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 3: kind of want to circle back to that topic just briefly, 767 00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,360 Speaker 3: because I know that for some maybe hearing the definition 768 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 3: of what that entails and the different buckets of things 769 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 3: that you should be looking for may have raised a 770 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 3: couple of red flags. Admittedly, those red flags can be 771 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 3: really scary, right, So for someone who heard us talk 772 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 3: about this today and a little concerned about their use, 773 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 3: what do you tell them? 774 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's absolutely scary to hear. 775 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: I also want to name that there's still so much 776 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: stigma about substance use disorder. This idea that you know, 777 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,840 Speaker 1: if you have an alcoholus to sort of, for example, 778 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 1: there's something wrong with you that you don't have willpower, 779 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 1: you're morally bad in some way, I think is very 780 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: pervasive in our society. Despite the fact that it's now 781 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 1: more common to talk about these things is health issues, 782 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: We've long approached it as an issue of sort of 783 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: being bad or being weak, And so for just to 784 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,440 Speaker 1: name that and say that that's wrong and that is 785 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: not true. This is a treatable health condition. It is 786 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: not someone's fault. And also that's very real to feel 787 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: that sort of fear and sense of stigma. I think, 788 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:45,760 Speaker 1: you know, the first thing to do is talk to someone, 789 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: and whether that is someone you trust in your life 790 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: or you know, I hope maybe people have a doctor 791 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: or a healthcare provider they trust in their lives too, 792 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 1: you know, in addition to being an addiction specialist and 793 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 1: also primary care doctor, and if you have a primary 794 00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: care doctor, that's a perfect person to talk to you 795 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 1: about that, because there are ways that we can assess 796 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 1: in that encounter whether or not you do in fact, 797 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 1: I'm an alcohol use disorder, and if you do, there's 798 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: treatments that can help, including medication treatments that people don't 799 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: know much about that can help you cut back how 800 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: much you're drinking or stop entirely. And that is a 801 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,040 Speaker 1: really underutilized tool, in addition to many other types of 802 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: supports like therapy or group supports. 803 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,920 Speaker 3: Even just talking about it openly with a friend, Although 804 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 3: that might feel scary at first, it's an opportunity for 805 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 3: you to really be honest about what is happening with 806 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:32,439 Speaker 3: you and your body. And it's not until you take 807 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 3: that opportunity to be honest that you can realize that 808 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 3: you're really not as alone as you might feel, that 809 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 3: there are so many other individuals who are dealing with 810 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 3: similar circumstances, whether it be here as we talk about 811 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 3: this alcohol use disorder or you know, whatever else you 812 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 3: may be dealing with totally. 813 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,080 Speaker 1: And you know, we often say in the addiction world 814 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,800 Speaker 1: that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety. Actually the 815 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: opposite of addiction is connection. Because many times when people 816 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,960 Speaker 1: are struggling with an alcoholics disorder or substance use disorder, 817 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,680 Speaker 1: they feel really alone. And so even just reaching out 818 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: and having that connection with another human being can be 819 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:06,840 Speaker 1: therapeutic and of itself. 820 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 3: The way that I want to round us out here 821 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 3: is talking about integration, and that for someone who may 822 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 3: be listening to this we're recording us at the close 823 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,879 Speaker 3: to the end of twenty twenty three, many individuals may 824 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 3: be thinking about doing some sort of a dry January. 825 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 3: I'm curious to know your thoughts, your advice, your takeaways 826 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 3: for the individual who's down to give it a try, 827 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 3: but then realizes that they want to bring it back, 828 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 3: because I feel like that transitionary period can be pretty 829 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,760 Speaker 3: troublesome for some So let's talk about that. What would 830 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 3: you tell that person who maybe gave sober curiosity a 831 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 3: try and then realize it's just not for them. Is 832 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 3: there a safe way to integrate drinking back into your routine. 833 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, I think first 834 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: recognizing and sort of honoring the fact that you made 835 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: a change and you did something different for your health 836 00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,480 Speaker 1: that month, and that's awesome, and there may be lots 837 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: of reasons why you're deciding that's not the right thing 838 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 1: for you. I think having that sense of what our 839 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 1: lower risk drinking limits, especially if you're drinking above them before, 840 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: like maybe you're drinking actually ten or fourteen drinks a 841 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 1: week before you tried a period of not drinking, and 842 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: now you want to start drinking again, it's an awesome 843 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 1: opportunity to really keep it within that sort of healthier limit. 844 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: After a period of not drinking, your tolerance is going 845 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 1: to go down. So the first thing I know is 846 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,400 Speaker 1: you're going to react differently to alcohol when you do 847 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: introduce it back, so you may feel the effects of 848 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: one or two drinks in a way that you wouldn't 849 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,839 Speaker 1: have if you've been drinking that way consistently. So being 850 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: cautious when you restart, But I would say being intentional 851 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: is probably the most important thing. You've just done, a 852 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: really important thing for your health. You've explored your relationship 853 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,280 Speaker 1: with alcohol, You've made changes. Now is a great reset 854 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: moment to really go into it with mindfulness to say, 855 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,320 Speaker 1: you know, I do actually value the role of alcohol 856 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:48,680 Speaker 1: in some ways in my life, but I want to 857 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: keep it to lower risk limits. And so therefore I'm 858 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: going to only drink, you know, Friday, Saturday, Sunday or whatever. 859 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to drink every day, but only one drink 860 00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 1: a day. But to really be sort of clear with 861 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: yourself about those guidelines, because otherwise it's easy to just 862 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: fall right back in and even worse, sometimes when we 863 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: go through a period of kind of restricting something, there's 864 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: a wish to do the opposite, to kind of, you know, 865 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 1: bend afterwards and celebrate the fact that you haven't been 866 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,440 Speaker 1: drinking for this month, and that can actually lead to 867 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 1: sort of a worse outcome that you're then drinking even more. 868 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: And so I think that that pause, that reflection, that 869 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,720 Speaker 1: mindfulness could be really helpful as you restart drinking. 870 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. 871 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 3: I remember during the month of time that I was 872 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 3: drinking a lot less, I realized that in the former 873 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 3: so in you know, the rest of my life, so 874 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,360 Speaker 3: often I would go out with someone, whether it be 875 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 3: for a work meeting or a date or just out 876 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 3: with a friend, and I could tell you within the 877 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 3: first ten minutes what their drink order was, but I 878 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 3: wouldn't be able to tell you much else. And so 879 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 3: being able to come back into self, coming into body, 880 00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 3: it allowed me to be a little bit more present 881 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 3: with where I was, and that experience taught me that, 882 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:59,280 Speaker 3: so that when I moved forward and did integrate alcohol 883 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 3: back into my life, I was a little bit more 884 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,360 Speaker 3: cognizant about what was happening in my interactions, the questions 885 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,839 Speaker 3: that I was asking, being where my feet are. And 886 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 3: so I do think, aside from the health benefits that 887 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 3: you may find from lessening the amount of alcohol you're 888 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 3: taking in, you'll actually also find some lasting insights about 889 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 3: who you are and the way that you conduct yourself 890 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 3: when you're in social situations. 891 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 1: I think that's so true and so important. And the 892 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,480 Speaker 1: flip side, if you find you can only tolerate hanging 893 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,240 Speaker 1: out with someone if you have three or four drinks, 894 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: that may be you know, a moment to say, hey, 895 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: is this really a relationship I want to spend my 896 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: very precious time with. So it definitely is a great 897 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: opportunity for reflection. 898 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,680 Speaker 3: This makes me laugh about a friend who once told 899 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,360 Speaker 3: me that she had what she liked to call summer boyfriend, 900 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,399 Speaker 3: and summer boyfriend could only be in the picture when 901 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 3: there was like. 902 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,279 Speaker 2: Fun and son and alcohol and cocktails. 903 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 3: And then she was like, this relationship actually is extremely 904 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 3: unhealthy for me. 905 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 2: Summer Boyfriend's got to go totally. 906 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, those moments of clarity can be really important for sure. 907 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 3: Now, before I let you go today, I know we 908 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 3: covered a ton in our conversation. Is there anything else 909 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 3: that you think that we should touch on, doctor Wakeman 910 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 3: before I let you go today? 911 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:14,439 Speaker 1: No, I think this is great. We covered a full 912 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,760 Speaker 1: range and I'm just so happy that people are listening 913 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:17,760 Speaker 1: and interested in this topic. 914 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 2: I love it well. 915 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,839 Speaker 3: Of course, thank you so much for your time, your 916 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,799 Speaker 3: care and concern of this conversation is super helpful for 917 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,399 Speaker 3: those that want to follow along. With you or want 918 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:31,399 Speaker 3: to get more information? Where would you recommend that they 919 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:32,000 Speaker 3: do that? 920 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,359 Speaker 1: Sure, so you can find me. I'm still on x 921 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: or formally Twitter and also on Instagram at doctor Sarah 922 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:44,919 Speaker 1: Wakeman or check out our website MDB Dash Substance Youth Services. 923 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:46,279 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 924 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 3: I'm over at Emily Body and at Hurdle Podcast Another 925 00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 3: Hurdle Conquered. 926 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:52,359 Speaker 2: Catch you guys next time 927 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:04,239 Speaker 3: You