WEBVTT - Designing Our Future 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.560 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:19.160 Meet Your Girl Danielle Moody, Recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:24.280 I'm very excited to welcome back to woke a F Daily, 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:29.640 friend of the show and colleague on Outspoken for iHeart 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:32.800 Bridget Todd, who is the host of There Are No 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:36.960 Girls on the Internet. And Bridgitte and I get into 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:41.800 a really interesting conversation as we enter into the last 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:45.160 week of Pride Pride month, but not the last week 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:49.839 of Pride, where we're talking about, you know, artificial intelligence, 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:54.720 which you cannot escape a segment or news story headline 0:00:55.200 --> 0:01:00.200 these days without somebody talking about artificial intelligence and chat 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.920 GPT and whether or not we think that AI is 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.440 going to destroy the world or whether we think that 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:08.640 it's going to be something that is going to aid 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:12.840 in our progress. And the conversation that I get into 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:15.720 with bridget is one that I've been grappling with in 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:19.520 my mind for quite some time, which is that if 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:28.800 the people right behind these technological advances are of the 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:36.440 same mind, meaning are the same white cysts, hetero, you know, 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:42.520 male people, If they're still the same people that are 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:49.960 in control, then how do we not think that bias, discrimination, 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:57.280 outright bigotry is going to be embedded in these new systems, right, Like, 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.520 we continue to believe and look at different advancements and 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:03.280 think like this is going to be the thing that 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:06.880 takes us to the next level, But we haven't fundamentally 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.120 dealt with the shit that has kept us, the country, 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:13.600 and the world under the thumb, under the knee of 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:18.440 white supremacy. Right. So when we have these conversations, and 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:23.000 you know, I reference in my talk with bridget about 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.840 a Netflix documentary that I've talked about on WKF before 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.519 called Coded Bias, that was on Netflix. You know, when 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:34.320 we talk about technology, when we talk about you know, 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:39.680 these technocrats, it is still white, cis hetero men that 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:44.359 are in control of the future, right, And they are 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:46.680 the same ones that are in control of our past. 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:49.160 And what do I mean by that, Well, look no 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:54.000 further than Governor Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbott and others 0:02:54.360 --> 0:03:00.200 who are dictating what it is students and people in 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:05.520 their state can learn about and know about our nation's history. 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:15.280 So when you have this same biased, racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:22.120 islamophobic people and that mentality that is still in charge. 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.440 How do you think that we advance out of racism. 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:30.120 It's like this idea which is so fucking stupid that like, oh, well, 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:34.639 when the racists die off, they don't they fucking reproduce, right, 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:41.680 They groom their children in their ideology, then they rise 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:45.560 up and they get into positions of power, and they 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:54.280 continue to blanket society through their industry in that ideology. 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.240 So it's like, if you don't get to the root, 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:02.320 it doesn't matter what is born on the tree, because 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.600 it's always going to be fucking poisonous. And that's the 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:12.520 thing in America that we continue to just not get right, 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:14.880 like we never want to go to the root of anything. 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:18.279 And that was my same understanding with you know, talking 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:22.279 about the Juneteenth Holiday, it's like you want to give 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.760 a federal holidays something that you don't even understand. People 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.400 want to say, oh, well, they were just the enslaved 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:34.039 were just late in finding out. No, it was a strategy. 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:39.800 It was part of keeping people enslaved and tied to production. 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:47.960 So it was about money and free labor. We continue 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:51.440 to have conversations about, you know, oh, should we have 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:54.719 reparations or should we not? And who is having that 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:59.200 commra who gets to decide the very people whose ancestors 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:02.280 did the fucking instructions and the very people who got 0:05:02.279 --> 0:05:08.080 to benefit from the torture and the rape and the 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:12.799 enslavement and the selling off of humans, and the breaking 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:17.320 up of family, the breaking up of culture, the wiping 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:24.880 away of history of knowing. So until we want to 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:29.440 have real conversations about power, until we want to have 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:34.480 real conversations about the root of the root, than anything, 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:40.520 anything that is about quote unquote technological advancement or human 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:45.400 advancement is always gonna be steeped in the shit we 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:52.800 refuse to discuss, recognize, and acknowledge. So coming up next, 0:05:52.960 --> 0:06:01.480 my conversation with podcast host Bridget Todd. Folks, I am 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.800 so excited to welcome back to wok f our friend 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.360 Bridget Todd, who is the creator and host. There are 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:14.080 no girls on the Internet, Bridget Happy Pride. 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.520 Happy Pride, Danielle, thank you for having me here. I'm 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:17.840 so excited to be back one of my favorite shows. 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:22.400 I love when you come on. I'm so excited that 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:28.279 you two are on outspoken and on iHeart. I think 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.160 that they are doing a really great job in terms 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:37.000 of finding such diverse talent, showcasing, you know, the breadth 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.159 and depth of the community. So I'm very excited about 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.920 that and to have you back. So I want to 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:47.240 jump in first with talking about the thing that has 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:53.320 been keeping me up at night, which is AI, Artificial intelligence. 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:57.359 Everybody is all hip and in love with chat GPT. 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:02.360 It is making life so very easy. But funny enough, 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:08.120 a group of CEOs ranging from I think it is 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:13.160 Coca Cola to Xerox to Zoom CEOs gathered together for 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:18.400 a Yale summit and forty two per They did a poll, 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.440 and forty two percent of them believe that AI is 0:07:22.480 --> 0:07:26.240 going to cause our inventing doom, you know, the end 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:28.720 of society as we know it, in the next five 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.880 to ten years, not the next fifty years, the next 0:07:33.000 --> 0:07:36.480 five to ten. And so I wanted to talk to 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:43.400 you about all of the conversation around AI, the politics 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:50.320 around trying to regulate, trying to have our Octanegerian politicians 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:55.880 regulate something when they barely understand social media. So, you know, 0:07:56.440 --> 0:08:00.320 please give me your thoughts on all things. 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.400 Oh my gosh, what a good topic. I don't even 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:06.600 know where to start. I guess I would say it's 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:09.040 kind of a good news bad news situation. In my book, 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.640 I think that I at first was coming from a 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:14.920 place very much where you're coming from too, write this 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:17.720 idea of like, oh my god, I'm hearing that AI 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.520 might change everything, we might all be out of jobs, 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:24.160 that might cause our our our doom. Not in one 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:26.600 hundred years, but in five years. But I actually did 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:30.360 a really interesting interview with a tech critic named Paris 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.040 Marx who hosts the podcast Tech Won't Save Us, and 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.400 that interview really helped me put things in perspectives. One 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:40.280 of the things that they said was that AI, the 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.400 people who make that technology, kind of need for there 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:45.719 to be a big hype cycle where even if we're 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:47.880 talking about it in terms of doom and gloom, that 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:50.960 is actually helpful for them because it helps them market 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:54.600 this idea that AI is going to change everything. AI 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:56.600 is going to take all of our jobs. AI is 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.240 going to be this big shift in all of our 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.120 thinking and the way that we do everything. Even if 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.959 it's even if we're talking about it in a way 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:07.840 that is scary, that seems alarmist, that is actually good 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.680 for them because it helps us all get comfortable with 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.000 this idea that AI is is here to stay. We're 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:15.120 all gonna have to get comfortable with it. It's kind 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:16.440 of if you look at the way that people talked 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.640 about cryptocurrency, maybe like a couple of years earlier, it 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:21.680 was a similar kind of hype cycle where it was 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:25.360 very easy to believe this is going to change everything financially, 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:27.640 you know, a couple of years from now, we're all 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:29.480 going to be using crypto, our bank's going to be 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.360 using crypto. That didn't really pan out, And so it 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.560 is important to think about in what ways are we 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:39.640 all feeding into, like a really common hype cycle by 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:42.800 get just sort of like giving into the idea that 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.080 AI is going to change everything. So that's one. So 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.720 I don't think there's a need to be quite so 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.520 doom and gloom, although I completely get where that comes from. However, 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.560 here's the bad news, which is that AHI most certainly 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.079 is going to change a lot of things, right, And 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:00.200 one of the things that Paris told me is that 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.480 they believe quite strongly that AI is simply going to 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.680 it's not going to replace workers. It's just going to 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.480 make life more miserable for workers. So you'll have more 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:13.800 survengeous of workers. You'll have more expectations of workers. You'll 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:15.920 have workers being paid less for the work they've been 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:20.280 doing already. You'll have knowledge like knowledge workers having that 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:23.960 work be devalued because the people who make financial decisions think, oh, well, 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:26.240 AI can do it better, even though we're not quite 0:10:26.280 --> 0:10:29.559 there yet. Right. If you ask chat GPT to write 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:33.120 an episode of woke af, you probably laugh at what 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.439 they came up with. Right, So they still need commentators, podcasters, 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.319 knowledge workers like you and I, Right, And so one 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:41.319 of the things I really do think is that when 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:44.080 the people who make decisions about how money is made, 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:46.760 how people are employed, what their employment looks like, when 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:50.360 they are buying into hype cycles around AI and what 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:52.560 it can do, that's when I really get worried. And 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:55.520 it's kind of exactly what you're saying. I don't think that, 0:10:56.080 --> 0:11:00.000 you know, our lawmakers really have enough understanding of AI 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:03.240 to be making laws that will actually regulate it. I 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:07.000 don't know if you saw a bunch of lawmakers were 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.160 pulled the head of chat GBT, Sam Altman, in for 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:14.120 a hearing, and before that hearing, they reportedly had a 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.280 dinner where Sam was showing these lawmakers all these different 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:19.320 tricks that A I could do, and it seemed like 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:21.280 like a trade show, right, and they were all really 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:25.040 like oohing and eyeing, and so you know, that's a 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:28.680 much more cozy relationship between people who are meant to 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.160 be regulating and the people who make the thing that 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.640 is meant to be being regulated that I would like 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.000 to see. And so it's not all I don't think 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:37.800 that you necessarily need to be coming from a place 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:40.040 of like doom and gloom. But it's not all good 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.160 because we know the people who make decisions, the people 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:44.760 who are supposed to be, you know, regulating this technology, 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.840 we really can't always trust them to make decisions that 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:49.840 are good for all of us, you know. 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:51.680 And I think that one of the things that you 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:56.760 bring up that is worth unpacking too is about workers, right, 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:00.760 And you're talking about knowledge workers versus you know, I 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:07.240 guess hands on workers, factory workers, delivery type people who 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:09.920 we write we at one time we wanted to say, 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.880 during the pandemic, these people were what were they essential? Right? 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:16.760 But we don't pay them like they're essential, and we 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.280 don't respect them like they are essential. But nonetheless that 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:26.800 when it comes to more information, more knowledge based kinds 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.080 of careers and professions, those will not be at risk 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:33.839 yet because the technology just is not there. To your 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:38.600 point about podcasting, to the point about writing a sonnet, 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:44.640 or you know, developing something that does require creativity innovation, 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.719 but not just the know how of doing it, but 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:51.600 really the intellectual strategy and understanding of how to do it. 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.840 AI is not strategizing, right, it is just doing and 0:12:54.920 --> 0:13:00.840 pulling information. But when we look at these more skilled 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:04.520 hands on jobs. If I'm looking at an Amazon factory, 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:09.040 for instance, right, if I'm looking at a Starbucks for instance, 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:15.600 there is something to be concerned about with what happens 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:21.800 to those jobs. Right if I'm building a world where 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:25.760 smart cars God willing, hopefully not the ones Elon Musk built, 0:13:25.920 --> 0:13:29.880 but where the smart cars are now the Amazon driver 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:34.320 and delivery person, where I'm going into seven to eleven 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:38.079 or any convenience store and instead of having a checkout person, 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:43.120 they're all just one personed right where I can go 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:45.920 in and do this. And this already exists in Japan, 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:50.480 it already exists in parts of in parts of Asia. 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:54.160 What do you think then happens to those workers and 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.760 how do we even if it's not about setting the 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:02.280 guardrails yet of this future technology that's here, but we 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.480 don't under really understand the implications of the damage that 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:08.680 it can do. We're only being told really about the 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.760 pomp pond look at this, you know, good things. How 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.640 do we talk about it from a worker's perspective and 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.479 the harm that can happen to our economy. 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:21.040 That's exactly the conversation that we need to be having. 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:23.640 I think that you're exactly right. I think we're seeing 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.320 so many people get really wrapped up in the rah 0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:29.040 rah or even the I think the other side of 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.840 that coin is the real doom and gloom and erasing 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.040 the fact that it is workers who are the ones 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:37.680 who I think are going to be impacted. And so 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:41.320 what I really get concerned about is people who make 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:45.240 decisions being swept up in the ra ra ai hype 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.840 cycle and then thinking, oh, well, we could have a 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:52.720 robot car replace the Amazon delivery driver, we can have 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.680 a robot barista replace the human barista, without thinking about 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:58.720 all of the ways that that is not one going 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.200 to threaten workers make all of our lives more miserable 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:04.440 because the technology is not there yet. And so I 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:06.440 really think that breaking out of these hype cycles is 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.280 super important and making sure that the people who are 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:12.840 signing the checks, hiring the workers, making the decisions, you know, 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.280 really understand that when we talk about technology it really 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.480 has to come from a place of people first, and 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.640 that means breaking away from the hype cycle that can 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.880 be so tempting to get wrapped up in. But you're 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.360 exactly right. I think that the people who are the 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.440 most that threatened by this are human workers, and so 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.680 making sure that we have conversations that are centered in 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.240 that reality that are not just pie in the sky 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:41.520 science fiction, you know. But again, it is so easy 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:44.280 to get swept up in that. I think a lot 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.040 of our lawmakers have gotten swept up in that. I 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:48.200 think a lot of the people who make decisions and 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:51.520 write checks, and like the ones who are who have power, 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:53.920 I think that we were already in a place where 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:57.600 they have just abandoned this understanding of how can we 0:15:57.680 --> 0:16:01.000 have this conversation in a way that centers people, humans 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:02.640 and workers. You know. 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.680 The other thing too, And I believe that we've talked 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:08.280 about this before when I've had you on in the 0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:14.080 documentary Netflix documentary Coded Bias, right, there were all sorts 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:20.240 of conversation about how we are literally coding bias, taking 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:26.119 what we know as racial discrimination, misogyny, you know, anti blackness, 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:31.760 anti LGBTQ, plus you know, sentiments and placing them, right, 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:38.400 we're making them technologically advanced and so again in order 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:44.400 to protect what I see just on its face already crumbling, right, 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:49.000 like our morals and our values as a country, the 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:52.320 dignity and respect that all people are deserving. And then 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:54.440 we're looking to the future and I'm just like, who 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:58.440 you think is creating this technology? It's like, so how 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:03.480 do we also know? It's like you had these billionaires 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:07.359 that we're doing their rocket ship race to get you know, 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.760 to get to out of space, and I'm like, all 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.159 you're doing with this dick measuring contest is gonna export, 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:17.560 you know, into the atmosphere, like export off the planet. 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.240 The racism, the misogyny and hatred that is here. 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:27.560 Oh my gosh, if I like yes, so if yes, yes, yes, 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:29.760 this is what keeps me up that night. Right. First 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:32.840 of all, these are the people who, for whatever reason, 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.520 believe that they should be in charge of shaping what 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.520 the future looks like for all of us. The fact 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.320 that we are being told that if our planet does 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.400 not survive because of climate collapse, we need to put 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.119 all of our collective futures into the hands of Elon 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:51.040 Musk to take us to another planet. Oh dear, are 0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.479 you kidding me? Are you kidding me? And it's exactly 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.680 what you said. I think that the tech billionaires, who, 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:00.640 let's be real, are mostly cis, mostly straight, mostly white. 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:02.959 These are the people who would like us to believe 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:06.320 that the technology that they build is neutral. It's just 0:18:06.320 --> 0:18:08.879 the technology doesn't have any bias, right, but right I 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:13.359 know is that's complete. BS. Technology is not neutral. It 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:19.840 comes coded into it all the different biases homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, racism, 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:23.480 fat phobia, all of those different things are coded into 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.879 that technology. And so until we get to a place 0:18:26.880 --> 0:18:29.840 where those people are able to really see and like 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.640 meaningfully grapple with all of the ways that they are 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.080 propagating these bad things in our society and building it 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:39.840 into the technology and then being able to be like, oh, well, 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.879 it's neutral, Like the technology can't be racist. We know 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:45.840 that's BS. Until we do that, we will never actually 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:48.400 meaningfully get a handle on this. And yeah, I think 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.879 that when it comes to AI, there are so many examples. 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.080 Even if anybody listening played with things like the lensa 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.399 app where you fed in a couple of selfies and 0:18:56.440 --> 0:19:00.600 it gave you AI generated images of yourself, we'll come 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:04.040 to find out though it wasn't AI generated necessarily. A 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:08.280 lot of that was just pulling from existing images out. 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:08.720 On the web. 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:12.199 And so when black women fed their selfies into it, 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:14.080 some of them would say, oh, they made my features 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:16.919 look a lot more European, they lighten my skin, or 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.040 they made me more kind of conventionally attractive. That's not 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:22.840 coming from nowhere. That's coming from us humans. And so 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.600 until we as humans get to handle on these you know, 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.720 negative things and dynamics in our society, it is simply 0:19:29.760 --> 0:19:32.480 going to be like recreated and made that much worse 0:19:32.600 --> 0:19:35.760 by this technology. And it's such a drag because this 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:41.120 technology could be so powerful if the people who are 0:19:41.160 --> 0:19:44.200 making it actually did examine that, and it could I 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:46.240 could imagine all kinds of ways it could be used 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:50.840 to break away from these harmful binaries and biases. But 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.199 it's not until these people really examine these biases and 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:57.240 how they are are replicating them. We're just going to 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.240 continue replicating the same harmful crap that we already see 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:00.800 in society. 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:03.600 And I think that that's right. I think that the 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.840 you know, much like anything right, that the people who 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:11.520 have the power to create them, their product is only 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.479 as good as their intentions, right, And so you can't 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:19.920 create from a place of neutrality because there is no neutrality, right, 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:22.720 not in this country, not in the world. And so 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:27.360 unless you're going to do some real internal examination of 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:31.920 self and how your own lens you know, sheds light 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:35.000 on how you see others, it is going to be 0:20:35.160 --> 0:20:39.280 you are going to continue to code in bias right, 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.919 without having any type of intentionality around it. And I 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:44.720 do you know, I'm not. I mean, I am a 0:20:44.720 --> 0:20:47.600 doom and gloomer, but I also am somebody that has 0:20:47.680 --> 0:20:51.680 seen the ways in which technology obviously has been able 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:56.199 to bridge disability gaps, build you know, build community that 0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:59.680 wouldn't normally have been right to be able to expose 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:03.800 people to images, movements, and issues outside of their own 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:08.200 front door. We got that, you know, that connectivity because 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:13.800 of technology. And it's just it worries me because these billionaires, 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:18.040 the ones that are in control, these technocrats, are not 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:25.120 ones with solid intentions about bettering humanity. And that's where 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.120 I think, like the conversation needs to. 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:31.919 Be absolutely I would even go further. I agree that 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:35.320 they are not people who are meaningfully interested in bettering 0:21:35.359 --> 0:21:38.000 society and using their technology to do that. I would 0:21:38.080 --> 0:21:42.639 argue that what some of these people see as a good, full, 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:47.480 meaningful life is so radically different than what you or 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:49.480 I or I would say the majority of the world 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.320 would see as a full and meaningful life. Like there's 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:57.040 this very popular engineer, Lex Friedman who I once was 0:21:57.040 --> 0:21:59.040 listening to an interview and he was talking about how 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:02.560 he has this fantasy of when you get up in 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:03.879 the middle of the night at three o'clock in the 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.080 morning and you go to the kitchen to like sneak 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:08.320 a snack, you could eating ice cream because you can't sleep. 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:12.480 He in his fantasy, he would have a smart refrigerator 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:14.960 that he's able to share this as a as a 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:17.880 meaningful moment between him and his smart refrigerator. He wants 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.359 to have a genuine connection, And I was like, I 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:22.399 don't what if what if I want to connect with 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.399 my partner and my family and my friends. What if? 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:27.800 What if what looks like a good life to me 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:30.679 is not a life where I am spending more time 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:36.640 with screens exactly exactly. And so you're you're asking people who, 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:40.080 let's just be real, don't always have the most healthy 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:44.800 or the most healthy outlooks on what connection looks like 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:46.640 and what a good and a full life looks like. 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:49.239 We are asking them to design our future. And so 0:22:49.280 --> 0:22:51.239 I would I would really say, like the future that 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:53.439 they see as a good future and the future that 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:55.520 the rest of us probably see is a good future 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:58.320 are two vastly different things. Then we got to ask, well, 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:01.160 who put them in charge of designing what our collective 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:02.000 future will look like? 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:04.359 Yeah, because when I think about the ways that we 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:08.560 could utilize technology in order to stave off our climate crisis, 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:10.600 When I think about the ways that we could utilize 0:23:10.640 --> 0:23:15.639 technology in order to better coexist inside of nature, how 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:19.280 we can use what, you know, the technology that is 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.240 that trees do to talk to one another to build 0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:25.960 fertile ground, and be able to translate that into something 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:29.560 for people like I think about, Wow, amazing, you know, 0:23:29.640 --> 0:23:31.920 I think about the sci fi that I read written 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:35.960 by black women like Nidi Okafor and Octavia Butler, when 0:23:35.960 --> 0:23:40.119 I'm thinking about, like, where there is opportunity, it seems 0:23:40.280 --> 0:23:44.280 very rich, but not if it is the same cis white, 0:23:44.480 --> 0:23:47.960 hetero strict men that are in charge of it, it 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:50.080 is just going to be the same shit, but in 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:51.040 robot form. 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:54.800 Absolutely, And it breaks my heart because there is so 0:23:55.080 --> 0:24:00.960 much innovative, creative, interesting out there thinking being done by 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:07.119 black and brown and queer technologists and people imagining futures 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:10.000 that we can't even see with our eyes. Yet there 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:12.199 is so much of that out there, and yet the 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:14.680 people who have the power and have the money and 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:17.400 take up the most space, they're not having those conversations. 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:21.760 What they're saying are really harmful ideologies like long termism, 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:24.439 which says like people like you and me and probably 0:24:24.520 --> 0:24:27.120 ninety percent of the people listening, we are too focused 0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:29.159 on the day to day of like paying our bills 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:31.080 to think long term. And so what we need to 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:34.679 do is gather all the white techie, billionaire folks and 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:37.679