WEBVTT - Michael Pollan on the Mind-Blowing Idea of Consciousness 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:32.156 Pushkin in retrospect, it seems absolutely crazy that I thought 0:00:32.156 --> 0:00:35.036 I had any qualification to write a book about consciousness. 0:00:35.356 --> 0:00:38.516 It's a really difficult topic. People have been cracking their 0:00:38.516 --> 0:00:41.436 head on it for thousands of years. But I figured, well, 0:00:41.636 --> 0:00:44.836 you know, I'm a curious human who happens to be conscious, 0:00:45.076 --> 0:00:47.636 and I'm pretty good at explaining things, So I went 0:00:47.676 --> 0:00:49.156 ahead and took the plunge. 0:00:49.636 --> 0:00:53.516 That's renowned author Michael Pollan, not quite giving himself the 0:00:53.516 --> 0:00:57.396 credit he deserves. Michael's written half a dozen bestsellers that 0:00:57.436 --> 0:01:01.716 have reshaped our understanding of everything from food to psychedelics. 0:01:02.116 --> 0:01:06.276 His latest book is called A World Appears. It tackles 0:01:06.316 --> 0:01:10.956 the complex subject of consciousness, which he defines simply as 0:01:10.996 --> 0:01:12.476 subjective experience. 0:01:12.996 --> 0:01:15.876 It is kind of a mind blowing idea, Wow, there's 0:01:15.916 --> 0:01:20.356 something mediating my relationship to reality. What is it? And 0:01:20.396 --> 0:01:22.316 why is it that way and not this way? 0:01:24.596 --> 0:01:29.676 On today's show, an awe inspiring, brain tickling exploration of 0:01:29.796 --> 0:01:36.676 human consciousness. I'm maya Schunker, a scientist who studies human behavior, 0:01:37.156 --> 0:01:39.916 and this is a slight change of plans, a show 0:01:39.956 --> 0:01:42.676 about who we are and who we become in the 0:01:42.676 --> 0:01:53.276 face of a big change when Michael and I last 0:01:53.316 --> 0:01:55.636 spoke on a slight change of plans, he had just 0:01:55.716 --> 0:01:58.716 written a book about the science of psychedelics and how 0:01:58.716 --> 0:02:01.516 they can change our minds. It was a delightful and 0:02:01.596 --> 0:02:05.476 philosophically rich conversation, and so when he asked me to 0:02:05.516 --> 0:02:08.876 moderate a live event celebrating his new book, A World 0:02:08.876 --> 0:02:13.556 of I was thrilled. Michael, I wanted to just share 0:02:13.636 --> 0:02:16.876 a quick story to kick this off. So back in 0:02:16.956 --> 0:02:20.356 twenty fourteen, I had just met this guy named Jimmy, 0:02:20.596 --> 0:02:23.236 and I had a pretty big crush on him. And 0:02:23.276 --> 0:02:26.196 I remember we were walking in DC and we were 0:02:26.196 --> 0:02:28.876 on our way to dinner and I was weighing the 0:02:28.876 --> 0:02:29.836 menu options in my head. 0:02:29.836 --> 0:02:32.636 I was like, should I get poster or the sue 0:02:32.676 --> 0:02:33.276 for the salad? 0:02:33.396 --> 0:02:35.396 I don't know, maybe both, And all of a sudden, 0:02:35.476 --> 0:02:38.596 Jimmy suddenly stops in his tracks and he looks at 0:02:38.636 --> 0:02:42.796 me and he goes, man, MAYA, isn't consciousness so great? 0:02:46.116 --> 0:02:49.236 I was like, I don't know what's up with this guy, 0:02:49.396 --> 0:02:51.396 but he seems to be a life lover, and so 0:02:52.116 --> 0:02:54.516 maybe I hitched myself to his wagon. Life's gonna be 0:02:54.556 --> 0:02:56.716 great forever. Anyway, We're married, he's in the front row. 0:02:56.756 --> 0:03:03.316 It all worked out. But needless to say, it is 0:03:03.356 --> 0:03:05.796 such an honor for me to be in conversation with 0:03:05.836 --> 0:03:08.356 you about a world appears. But I am getting so 0:03:08.516 --> 0:03:12.076 many brownie points from Jimmy to do this with you tonight, 0:03:12.116 --> 0:03:16.156 So thank you for that marital gift. The last time 0:03:16.316 --> 0:03:19.716 I interviewed you for my podcast, The Slight Change of Plans, 0:03:20.236 --> 0:03:23.836 you had just written a book on psychedelics and your 0:03:23.876 --> 0:03:27.596 personal experience with psychedelics, and I know that that was 0:03:27.756 --> 0:03:31.876 one of the big inspirations for you to explore consciousness. 0:03:32.356 --> 0:03:33.796 Can you tell me about that experience. 0:03:33.916 --> 0:03:36.556 Yeah. So there's a funny way in which one book 0:03:36.676 --> 0:03:39.396 kind of has the sour dough starter you carry through 0:03:39.476 --> 0:03:42.876 to the next one. And I very often we'll look 0:03:42.916 --> 0:03:46.036 at a book and see whether it or along the 0:03:46.076 --> 0:03:48.276 way of writing it that there's some germ that needs 0:03:48.316 --> 0:03:51.956 to be or seed that needs to grow. And with psychedelics, 0:03:51.996 --> 0:03:54.676 there were two things that happened that stuck with me 0:03:54.756 --> 0:03:58.156 after I'd finished the book, and one was this experience 0:03:58.196 --> 0:04:01.916 I had in my garden on psilocybin and getting the 0:04:02.116 --> 0:04:05.716 distinct impression, overwhelming impression that the plants in my garden 0:04:05.756 --> 0:04:12.596 were conscious. I know it was. I was tripping and 0:04:12.636 --> 0:04:15.636 they were kind of like returning my gaze, and they 0:04:16.396 --> 0:04:20.316 they were very benevolent. They seem to like me. I 0:04:20.356 --> 0:04:23.276 was their gardener, of course, and you know, you come 0:04:23.316 --> 0:04:25.196 out of an experience like that, it's like, well, what's 0:04:25.276 --> 0:04:28.276 the truth value of an insight you have on psychedelics. 0:04:28.276 --> 0:04:31.876 It's really questionable. So that was one data point, and 0:04:31.956 --> 0:04:35.636 the other data point was more generally about consciousness and 0:04:35.676 --> 0:04:37.996 that psychedelics have. And I'm not the first person this 0:04:38.036 --> 0:04:40.796 has happened to by any means, but they have a 0:04:40.796 --> 0:04:42.516 way of kind of, as I put in the book, 0:04:42.596 --> 0:04:46.236 smudging the windshield through which we experience reality. And most 0:04:46.276 --> 0:04:50.036 of the time that windshield is like perfectly transparent. But 0:04:50.276 --> 0:04:55.476 psychedelics and meditation has a way of calling attention to 0:04:55.596 --> 0:04:59.316 the pane of glass and you're suddenly like, wow, there's 0:04:59.356 --> 0:05:03.836 something mediating my relationship to reality. What is it? And 0:05:03.876 --> 0:05:06.516 why is it that way and not this way? Yeah, 0:05:06.556 --> 0:05:09.356 So these two thoughts just kind of stuck with me 0:05:09.396 --> 0:05:12.396 for a while and I realized, well, yeah, I should 0:05:12.396 --> 0:05:15.676 look into that. In retrospect, it seems absolutely crazy that 0:05:15.756 --> 0:05:18.036 I thought I had any qualification to write a book 0:05:18.076 --> 0:05:21.916 about consciousness. It's a really difficult topic. People have been 0:05:21.916 --> 0:05:24.596 cracking their head on it for thousands of years. But 0:05:24.716 --> 0:05:27.556 I figured, well, you know, I'm a curious human who 0:05:27.716 --> 0:05:31.916 happens to be conscious, and I'm pretty good at explaining things. 0:05:32.196 --> 0:05:34.476 So I went ahead and took the plunge. 0:05:35.276 --> 0:05:38.516 I was so moved by the metaphor of the smudge 0:05:38.596 --> 0:05:41.716 on the windshield and the recognition that there is a 0:05:41.716 --> 0:05:44.516 windshield at all, right, that there's some mediator between us 0:05:44.516 --> 0:05:48.316 and our perception of reality. And I still remember. I 0:05:48.316 --> 0:05:50.676 think I had two kind of similar moments. The first 0:05:50.716 --> 0:05:53.556 is when I was in undergrad studying cognitive science, and 0:05:53.956 --> 0:05:56.676 I first learned that there's a blind spot on our 0:05:56.716 --> 0:05:58.756 eyes where all the nerves kind of there's like a 0:05:58.756 --> 0:06:01.516 little bundling right right, and we just fill in that 0:06:02.276 --> 0:06:04.716 blind spot effortlessly all the time. I'm looking now, there's 0:06:04.756 --> 0:06:06.436 no I don't see a little black spot when I'm 0:06:06.436 --> 0:06:08.116 looking here, I'm not, Oh my god, I'm trying to trick. 0:06:08.196 --> 0:06:10.476 My brain figures it out no matter where I look, 0:06:10.516 --> 0:06:11.436 however quickly I look. 0:06:11.476 --> 0:06:12.676 It's truly extraordinary. 0:06:13.276 --> 0:06:15.876 And another moment was when I just had a regular 0:06:15.916 --> 0:06:20.316 eye exam, and the doctor said, oh, wow, you kind 0:06:20.316 --> 0:06:23.116 of see things in sepia And I was like, whoa, 0:06:23.156 --> 0:06:24.716 I'm an og Instagram filter. 0:06:24.956 --> 0:06:28.076 Okay, but I had no idea that was a thing. 0:06:28.116 --> 0:06:30.956 He's like, yeah, typically we see this in older populations, 0:06:30.956 --> 0:06:32.516 but it seems like you were just born with this 0:06:32.636 --> 0:06:37.356 sepia lens. And that was another recognition. Wow, it didn't 0:06:37.396 --> 0:06:40.316 have to be this way. The way that I see 0:06:40.356 --> 0:06:44.556 it is not a vertical representation necessarily of the world 0:06:44.556 --> 0:06:48.476 around me, right, And I sort of had that all inspiring. 0:06:48.836 --> 0:06:51.276 It's kind of a mind blowing idea. I mean, the 0:06:51.356 --> 0:06:54.516 extent to which what we perceive is actually a prediction, 0:06:55.436 --> 0:06:59.356 not a literal transcription or taking in of the world, 0:06:59.636 --> 0:07:04.316 and that the brain is guessing and then using senses 0:07:04.476 --> 0:07:08.556 to error correct essentially. Yeah, it's not like we're creating 0:07:08.596 --> 0:07:11.396 a whole new picture of reality from all our senses 0:07:11.436 --> 0:07:11.996 all the time. 0:07:13.236 --> 0:07:16.156 I want to start by establishing some of the basics, 0:07:16.196 --> 0:07:19.156 because lots of things come to mind when we hear 0:07:19.276 --> 0:07:23.116 the word consciousness. Right, what is the working definition that 0:07:23.156 --> 0:07:25.236 you had when writing A world appears? 0:07:26.116 --> 0:07:29.076 Yeah, it's funny. It's a universal phenomenon that people still 0:07:29.116 --> 0:07:32.116 struggle to define, and I think it's because they're different. 0:07:32.196 --> 0:07:34.716 Layers of consciousness is part of it, but at the 0:07:34.756 --> 0:07:39.156 most simple level, it's subjective experience. You have subjective experience 0:07:39.156 --> 0:07:42.756 of the world, and your appliances don't have that. They 0:07:42.756 --> 0:07:46.796 don't have any experience. So that's one definition. Another is 0:07:46.996 --> 0:07:50.076 Thomas Nagel, the philosopher wrote a famous essay called what 0:07:50.156 --> 0:07:52.436 Is It Like to Be a Bat? So bats are 0:07:52.516 --> 0:07:54.716 very different than we are. They don't have a visual system, 0:07:54.756 --> 0:07:58.116 they have zonar. Basically they navigate the world through echolocation. 0:07:59.116 --> 0:08:02.036 And he said, I if it is like something to 0:08:02.116 --> 0:08:05.156 be a bat, then about is conscious? And we can 0:08:05.276 --> 0:08:08.436 kind of guess using our imagination and there's no other 0:08:08.476 --> 0:08:10.916 way to do it. What it would be like to 0:08:11.036 --> 0:08:15.716 go through life using echoes rather than reflections of light 0:08:15.876 --> 0:08:18.996 to see where we are? So is it like something? 0:08:19.036 --> 0:08:22.756 Does it feel like something to be any animal or 0:08:22.756 --> 0:08:26.396 a plant? And then if that's true, then it is conscious. 0:08:26.636 --> 0:08:28.756 And that's been a pretty handy I don't know if 0:08:28.796 --> 0:08:31.156 it's a definition exactly, but kind of framing of the 0:08:31.196 --> 0:08:34.436 problem that has been accepted by a lot of the 0:08:34.436 --> 0:08:37.036 scientists who are working on it. There are other levels 0:08:37.076 --> 0:08:40.276 to consciousness though in humans, I mean, there is the 0:08:40.316 --> 0:08:42.716 fact that we are not just aware, but we're aware. 0:08:42.756 --> 0:08:46.196 We're aware, and that's pretty wild. We have you know, 0:08:46.516 --> 0:08:49.396 meta consciousness. That's when it gets a little complicated, and 0:08:49.436 --> 0:08:51.876 we have voices in our head which you know, you 0:08:51.916 --> 0:08:54.396 don't need to be conscious, but that's the way we 0:08:54.436 --> 0:08:54.756 do it. 0:08:55.116 --> 0:08:57.796 Yeah, I would love to take a moment to just 0:08:58.596 --> 0:09:02.196 marvel at the fact that we do have consciousness, because 0:09:02.196 --> 0:09:05.276 it is something that many of us take for granted. 0:09:05.876 --> 0:09:10.716 I feel like the first time I thought about consciousness 0:09:10.756 --> 0:09:13.916 was when I was literally just in a class called 0:09:13.996 --> 0:09:16.356 intro to cognitive science, and that was when I was 0:09:16.396 --> 0:09:18.756 a college student. I'd kind of gone the whole rest 0:09:18.756 --> 0:09:22.516 of my life taking this incredible thing for granted. And 0:09:24.556 --> 0:09:27.076 you know, there's a counterfactual world that's easy to conjure 0:09:27.156 --> 0:09:30.036 up in which we humans engaged in all the behaviors 0:09:30.036 --> 0:09:32.876 that we engage in, have all the intelligence that we have, 0:09:33.036 --> 0:09:36.356 and yet we do lack this inner experience, right the 0:09:36.476 --> 0:09:37.436 lights aren't on. 0:09:37.676 --> 0:09:39.956 So to speak, zombie thought experience. 0:09:39.676 --> 0:09:41.476 Exactly, the philosophical zombie. 0:09:41.716 --> 0:09:43.956 I mean, I think it's one of the interesting phenomena 0:09:44.236 --> 0:09:47.276 of consciousness that most of what your brain does you're 0:09:47.316 --> 0:09:50.396 not aware of. Right, your brain is regulating your body 0:09:50.676 --> 0:09:54.116 twenty four to seven heart rate, blood pressure, all this 0:09:54.196 --> 0:09:57.916 kind of stuff, plus processing lots of information from the environment, 0:09:58.716 --> 0:10:01.316 and it's all automatic. So the question is, why is 0:10:01.516 --> 0:10:05.356 any of it not automatic? Why don't we automate everything? 0:10:05.636 --> 0:10:09.916 And the best theory I think explain this, and it's 0:10:09.956 --> 0:10:15.836 an evolutionary theory, is that for social beings, navigating social 0:10:15.876 --> 0:10:20.676 reality is key, and what other people are going to 0:10:20.756 --> 0:10:24.396 do is very unpredictable. So you need consciousness to be 0:10:24.436 --> 0:10:27.836 able to imagine your way into other people's heads. You 0:10:27.876 --> 0:10:32.396 could imagine two different types of people, one who doesn't 0:10:32.436 --> 0:10:34.876 really think that you have consciousness or you have a 0:10:34.916 --> 0:10:39.676 point of view, versus someone who has that ability to 0:10:39.716 --> 0:10:42.036 create a space in their head where they can imagine 0:10:42.076 --> 0:10:44.316 what's going on in your head. That that would be 0:10:44.556 --> 0:10:47.636 a big survival advantage, that you would be more likely 0:10:47.636 --> 0:10:49.956 to be able to form bonds with other people because 0:10:49.996 --> 0:10:53.836 of that. So consciousness creates a space for decision making 0:10:53.876 --> 0:10:57.716 a space for imagination, and I think that that has 0:10:57.756 --> 0:11:01.116 a real evolutionary utility for a social species like us. 0:11:01.636 --> 0:11:06.556 Another thing that's astonishing is just that when physical stuff. 0:11:06.596 --> 0:11:08.436 You know, in this case, the neurons in our brains 0:11:08.436 --> 0:11:12.676 get organized a certain way in inner experience emerges at all. 0:11:13.876 --> 0:11:14.956 That is the hard problem. 0:11:15.036 --> 0:11:17.236 This is the hard problem of consciousness. So can you 0:11:17.316 --> 0:11:22.716 define the hard problem and then share what theories are 0:11:22.756 --> 0:11:25.396 floating around that have helped to explain the hard problem? 0:11:26.036 --> 0:11:27.596 Well, there are two hundred theories. 0:11:27.956 --> 0:11:30.276 If you could just name each of them, Michael, that 0:11:30.316 --> 0:11:32.196 would be really please be comprehensive. 0:11:32.476 --> 0:11:36.756 Yeah, Well, the hard problem is basically, how do you 0:11:36.796 --> 0:11:39.356 get from matter to mind? How do you get from 0:11:39.516 --> 0:11:44.596 a certain organization of neurons presumably because we don't know 0:11:44.636 --> 0:11:48.756 that for a fact, and how does consciousness emerge from that? 0:11:49.036 --> 0:11:51.956 So that's the hard problem. Why isn't it all automated? 0:11:51.996 --> 0:11:56.036 Also as part of the hard problem, and David Chalmers 0:11:56.156 --> 0:11:58.996 is the philosopher who came up with that term for it, 0:11:59.276 --> 0:12:01.076 you know, just to give you an example of a 0:12:01.196 --> 0:12:05.156 theory or two, there's something called global neuronal workspace theory. 0:12:05.676 --> 0:12:08.276 And that's the idea that you have all these modules 0:12:08.316 --> 0:12:10.636 in your brain that are competing for the attention of 0:12:10.676 --> 0:12:14.996 the whole and when the most salient information gets into 0:12:15.036 --> 0:12:20.076 the workspace, it's broadcast to the whole brain and becomes conscious, 0:12:20.196 --> 0:12:22.156 so the whole brain can work on it and deal 0:12:22.196 --> 0:12:26.076 with it. So that's interesting. I mean, it still doesn't 0:12:26.116 --> 0:12:29.756 answer like, well, who's the conscious subject that is receiving 0:12:29.796 --> 0:12:34.196 that broadcast? And that's where everybody falls down and starts 0:12:34.196 --> 0:12:36.596 waving their hands. And part of that is the problem 0:12:36.636 --> 0:12:41.436 that our science is based on third person, objective, quantifiable 0:12:41.796 --> 0:12:44.996 you know, ever since Galileo. That's what science is, physical 0:12:45.036 --> 0:12:48.516 science anyway, and we're talking about a subjective phenomenon, so 0:12:48.556 --> 0:12:52.116 there's no traction. How do you get how do you 0:12:52.156 --> 0:12:55.436 get in? How do you and you know Galileo left 0:12:55.556 --> 0:12:58.756 all that to the church, you know, that was the soul, subjectivity, 0:12:58.916 --> 0:13:01.876 qualitative experience, and he knew what he was doing. He 0:13:02.076 --> 0:13:05.316 was protecting science from the church, which otherwise would have 0:13:05.316 --> 0:13:08.156 crushed it, and did try to crush it. You know, 0:13:08.276 --> 0:13:11.796 this idea that you take a complex phenomenon and you 0:13:11.876 --> 0:13:14.916 reduce it to you know, matter and energy, it just 0:13:14.956 --> 0:13:18.556 doesn't work for consciousness, and it may never work for consciousness. 0:13:18.796 --> 0:13:22.556 We may need a different kind of science. So that's 0:13:22.556 --> 0:13:24.836 a brain based theory. But there are others that are 0:13:24.836 --> 0:13:28.476 not brain based, and they strike us as really out there, 0:13:28.516 --> 0:13:32.196 but there's no reason to dismiss them. I don't think. 0:13:32.516 --> 0:13:37.436 One is panpsychism, which is that everything that consciousness didn't 0:13:37.476 --> 0:13:41.356 have to evolve, It was always here. Every every particle 0:13:41.396 --> 0:13:46.516 in this table has some weensy little bit of psyche 0:13:46.596 --> 0:13:52.276 and somehow it gets combined to form larger consciousnesses like 0:13:52.316 --> 0:13:55.236 our own. That's a high price to pay, you know. 0:13:55.716 --> 0:13:59.196 I mean to change the nature of matter, you know, 0:13:59.396 --> 0:14:03.556 to accommodate your theory. But we've done that before. You know, 0:14:03.716 --> 0:14:08.476 two hundred years ago Faraday discovered that they are electromagnetic 0:14:08.476 --> 0:14:10.956 waves all over this room right now, and we didn't 0:14:10.956 --> 0:14:11.596 know about that. 0:14:12.316 --> 0:14:15.396 So you're telling me you believe in panpsychism. 0:14:15.476 --> 0:14:16.356 I know you don't. 0:14:16.476 --> 0:14:20.156 No, I don't, but I don't not believe in it either. 0:14:21.636 --> 0:14:23.436 Okay, just because we don't know, I don't. 0:14:23.516 --> 0:14:25.316 Can I just just quibble with one piece of it, 0:14:25.356 --> 0:14:27.356 which is and then I understand. I'll have said all 0:14:27.356 --> 0:14:30.596 the pan psychist supporters out there, but it's not just 0:14:30.676 --> 0:14:31.836 it feels it's probably a. 0:14:31.876 --> 0:14:32.916 Very small constituency. 0:14:32.956 --> 0:14:37.156 But it feels like with panpsychism that yes, you've eliminated 0:14:37.196 --> 0:14:39.676 one hard problem, but in doing so, you created it. 0:14:39.796 --> 0:14:42.156 At least two new ones, like one, what. 0:14:42.236 --> 0:14:44.956 Imbued those entities like the atom that makes up this 0:14:44.996 --> 0:14:46.276 table with consciousness? 0:14:46.276 --> 0:14:48.516 Where did that come from? Who's the initiator of that? 0:14:49.116 --> 0:14:52.916 And then how do those individual conscious units merge? 0:14:53.276 --> 0:14:56.996 Well, the combination problem, which is the hard problem of panpsychism. 0:14:57.276 --> 0:15:00.756 Yeah, so they answered it with another I know, I know, 0:15:00.796 --> 0:15:03.436 but it's sort of like physics, you know, deciding that 0:15:03.676 --> 0:15:05.716 you know, well, we have this problem, but if we 0:15:05.756 --> 0:15:07.276 stipulate a multiverse, the. 0:15:07.236 --> 0:15:11.556 Problem solved, so so you know, it works at some 0:15:11.676 --> 0:15:15.596 theoretical level. The other idea is that consciousness is a 0:15:15.636 --> 0:15:20.636 field all around us like electro magnetic waves, and we 0:15:20.836 --> 0:15:23.956 channel consciousness so that we should think of the brain. 0:15:23.996 --> 0:15:27.596 The brain is still intimately involved, and you know, if 0:15:27.636 --> 0:15:30.036 you damage the brain, you damage consciousness, and if you 0:15:30.116 --> 0:15:33.716 change the brain, you change consciousness. But the brain is 0:15:33.756 --> 0:15:38.436 a receiver. These are transmission theories of consciousness, and that 0:15:38.516 --> 0:15:42.236 the brain is like a radio or television receiver. And 0:15:42.276 --> 0:15:44.476 in the same way you wouldn't look for the weather 0:15:44.596 --> 0:15:48.316 lady or guy in the in your TV set. That's 0:15:48.316 --> 0:15:50.396 not where you're going to find him. That's not where 0:15:50.436 --> 0:15:52.676 you're going to find consciousness either. So it's coming in. 0:15:53.276 --> 0:15:57.276 Alvius Huxley believe this theory. Omri Berrickson was a philosopher 0:15:57.276 --> 0:16:00.796 who believed it. And you know, how do you prove 0:16:00.836 --> 0:16:03.556 these theories? They're not they're not provable. 0:16:04.756 --> 0:16:05.916 Is there one that you find? 0:16:06.076 --> 0:16:07.836 I you know, you said there's over two hundred one 0:16:07.876 --> 0:16:11.436 that you find particularly compelling. Something new, a new version 0:16:11.476 --> 0:16:12.516 you learned of that you were like. 0:16:12.516 --> 0:16:15.156 I didn't finally like come out and argue one theory 0:16:15.196 --> 0:16:18.036 of consciousness, But there was a line of research that 0:16:18.196 --> 0:16:22.636 I found the most helpful in understanding consciousness. And that 0:16:22.716 --> 0:16:27.996 goes back to a neurologist, Antonio Dimasio. For a long time, 0:16:28.036 --> 0:16:30.636 we thought that consciousness had to be a product of 0:16:30.676 --> 0:16:33.476 the cortex, this you know, new part of the most 0:16:33.556 --> 0:16:37.356 advanced human part of the brain. Surely, you know consciousness, 0:16:37.436 --> 0:16:42.756 this great achievement of humans, must originate there. But he 0:16:42.876 --> 0:16:48.316 suggests it starts with feelings, not with thoughts, hunger and 0:16:48.436 --> 0:16:52.836 thirst and warmth and itch, and that these are the 0:16:52.876 --> 0:16:56.956 inaugural acts of consciousness. Basically, you know, we forget that 0:16:56.996 --> 0:17:00.916 the brain exists to support the body, keep the body alive, 0:17:01.036 --> 0:17:04.276 not the other way around. And feelings are the language 0:17:04.316 --> 0:17:08.156 that the body uses to communicate with the brain and 0:17:08.436 --> 0:17:11.956 tell it when homeostasis is not working right, when you're 0:17:11.956 --> 0:17:17.476 too hot to cold, hungry, you know whatever. And these feelings, 0:17:17.516 --> 0:17:20.036 some of them are dealt with automatically, but some of 0:17:20.076 --> 0:17:23.796 them have to be dealt with consciously. So it begins 0:17:23.836 --> 0:17:26.876 in the brain stem, not in the cortex, the upper 0:17:26.876 --> 0:17:30.156 brain stem. And indeed, if you have a leisure in 0:17:30.196 --> 0:17:33.036 the upper brainstem, you lose consciousness, whereas if you lack 0:17:33.076 --> 0:17:38.356 a cortex completely, there's evidence that you are conscious. So 0:17:38.436 --> 0:17:41.516 that's kind of the evidence they're working with. There still 0:17:41.596 --> 0:17:47.316 is the question of who's doing the feeling, and saying 0:17:47.356 --> 0:17:52.596 that feelings by definition are felt doesn't quite answer that problem. 0:17:52.876 --> 0:17:56.916 But I found that line of reasoning really compelling, and 0:17:56.956 --> 0:17:59.796 I think that we need to pay more attention to 0:17:59.876 --> 0:18:03.076 feelings as an originator of consciousness. 0:18:03.196 --> 0:18:06.356 He mentioned, there's some evidence to show that there is consciousness. 0:18:06.876 --> 0:18:11.036 How is it that researchers have found ways to evaluate 0:18:11.196 --> 0:18:14.676 consciousness and other entities given that we can never fully know, 0:18:15.236 --> 0:18:19.156 So we're like tris for consciousness. 0:18:18.356 --> 0:18:19.636 In other creatures. 0:18:19.716 --> 0:18:21.716 Yeah, or in the person with the brain damage as 0:18:21.716 --> 0:18:22.396 you were describing. 0:18:22.516 --> 0:18:25.436 Oh yeah, well, there's a horrible form of brain damage. 0:18:25.916 --> 0:18:29.756 Certain kids are born without a cortex, and nevertheless they 0:18:29.756 --> 0:18:34.316 appear to have appropriate emotional reactions to things, to various stimuli, 0:18:34.836 --> 0:18:39.716 and animals can be decorticated, which sounds pretty awful, and 0:18:39.756 --> 0:18:43.916 that they too show evidence of consciousness. Again, though you 0:18:43.916 --> 0:18:47.636 know you have to impute consciousness. You can't even I 0:18:47.836 --> 0:18:50.996 have to impute it to you. I can't be sure 0:18:51.036 --> 0:18:53.596 you're conscious. There's no way to prove someone is conscious 0:18:53.636 --> 0:18:56.636 except oh, you've got the behaviors of a conscious being 0:18:56.876 --> 0:18:59.356 and you're you know, you're my species, and you know 0:19:00.796 --> 0:19:04.876 they don't take this personal. 0:19:04.996 --> 0:19:13.916 Yes, talk about breaking emotional intimacy, man. So one question 0:19:13.956 --> 0:19:19.076 I have is what the necessary ingredients are for creating 0:19:19.076 --> 0:19:22.196 a conscious entity? And again, in this whole space, it's 0:19:22.196 --> 0:19:24.556 always just about theories, right, I Mean, one of the 0:19:24.556 --> 0:19:27.556 things you open the book by saying is like, you 0:19:27.636 --> 0:19:31.116 went on this quest, and there's even more things to 0:19:31.156 --> 0:19:35.116 be confused about post the quest than before. But how 0:19:35.156 --> 0:19:37.996 do people think about the necessary ingredients? And obviously this 0:19:38.036 --> 0:19:40.556 is particularly pertinent right now in the era of AI, 0:19:41.036 --> 0:19:45.516 and whether scientists ever deem AI to be conscious, it's. 0:19:45.436 --> 0:19:48.756 Going to be really hard to tell. Already. You know, 0:19:48.876 --> 0:19:52.236 ais that are clearly not conscious are convincing people they 0:19:52.316 --> 0:19:55.916 are conscious. People are falling in love with chatbots. People 0:19:55.996 --> 0:19:59.676 are convinced they've solved important problems of math and physics 0:19:59.676 --> 0:20:03.796 who aren't even mathematicians or physicists. People are being convinced 0:20:03.836 --> 0:20:07.716 they're gods. There's AI psychosis is a real thing right now. 0:20:07.996 --> 0:20:11.756 It's really frightening. I don't think AIS can be conscious. 0:20:11.796 --> 0:20:13.996 I mean, I can, you know, make that argument for 0:20:14.076 --> 0:20:16.396 you if you want, But the point is it's not 0:20:16.436 --> 0:20:19.556 going to matter, because people are going to think they're conscious. 0:20:19.916 --> 0:20:22.596 The usual test, so we had this Turing test right 0:20:22.716 --> 0:20:26.316 to determine if a computer is intelligent, and if he 0:20:26.356 --> 0:20:29.636 could fool someone an intelligent human who didn't know he 0:20:29.716 --> 0:20:31.556 was talking to a computer or she was talking to 0:20:31.556 --> 0:20:34.316 a computer, then it was intelligent. But that doesn't work 0:20:34.356 --> 0:20:37.756 for consciousness because consciousness is pretty easy to fake. We 0:20:38.076 --> 0:20:41.836 anthropomorphize everything. It's just a human bias, I think, to 0:20:41.916 --> 0:20:50.076 anthropomorphized thing, and it's safer to anthropomortize. And so I 0:20:50.116 --> 0:20:52.996 think the only test, and I'm saying this is someone 0:20:53.036 --> 0:20:58.396 with very little computer sophistication, would be to build an 0:20:58.396 --> 0:21:04.716 AI from which you never included any of the human 0:21:04.756 --> 0:21:10.796 conversation about consciousness or feelings, and you don't give it 0:21:10.876 --> 0:21:15.436 any novels to read, no poetry, and then have a 0:21:15.476 --> 0:21:19.876 conversation with it about consciousness. And I'm guessing it won't 0:21:19.876 --> 0:21:23.236 do very well. Yeah, but I don't know. I hope 0:21:23.316 --> 0:21:26.556 someone who you know works for Google will undertake this. 0:21:28.316 --> 0:21:29.156 It makes a lot of sense. 0:21:29.196 --> 0:21:32.756 I think, brilliant instincts that that would be how we 0:21:32.756 --> 0:21:34.996 could at least get some sort of signal, right at 0:21:34.996 --> 0:21:37.116 a meaningful, reliable signal out of the machine. 0:21:37.156 --> 0:21:39.716 Yeah, yeah, And you know, I think the feeling issue. 0:21:39.716 --> 0:21:42.956 If it is true that consciousness depends on feelings, which 0:21:42.996 --> 0:21:46.516 is to say, on a body, Yeah, then that's a 0:21:46.556 --> 0:21:49.276 real problem for ais. They lack bodies. If you think 0:21:49.316 --> 0:21:51.996 about what a feeling is, it's very much tied to 0:21:52.596 --> 0:21:56.596 having a body that is vulnerable, that can suffer, and 0:21:56.676 --> 0:22:00.196 probably that it's mortal. And I don't see that working 0:22:00.276 --> 0:22:00.956 for machines. 0:22:01.356 --> 0:22:05.636 How should we think about the constituent parts of consciousness? 0:22:05.996 --> 0:22:08.916 Does it require a nervous system? People used to think, Oh, 0:22:08.956 --> 0:22:11.596 it's intelligence, that's all the needed. If the thing becomes 0:22:11.636 --> 0:22:13.636 intelligent enough, consciousness. 0:22:13.156 --> 0:22:17.316 Will enron but they're actually very different ideas intelligence and consciousness. 0:22:17.356 --> 0:22:19.996 I mean, I think they're kind of orthogonal. I don't 0:22:19.996 --> 0:22:21.916 think one. I mean, we all know people that are 0:22:22.716 --> 0:22:26.716 conscious but not that intelligent, and the other way around. 0:22:26.716 --> 0:22:27.596 I'm not so sure. 0:22:28.356 --> 0:22:32.396 You is your instinct then that consciousness requires a nervous 0:22:32.436 --> 0:22:33.996 system of some kind. 0:22:34.436 --> 0:22:36.876 Well, you know, the plants are doing pretty well without 0:22:36.876 --> 0:22:42.756 a nervous system. You know, first chapters about what science 0:22:42.796 --> 0:22:46.476 has to say about plant consciousness or sentience, which is 0:22:46.476 --> 0:22:48.876 a much more appropriate word I think when it comes 0:22:48.916 --> 0:22:53.716 to plants. And I learned all this incredible research. There's 0:22:53.756 --> 0:22:57.476 a group of kind of renegade botanists. They call themselves 0:22:57.516 --> 0:23:02.516 plant neurobiologists, even though they are no neurons involved. They're 0:23:02.636 --> 0:23:07.116 trolling more conventional botanists by calling themselves that. And they 0:23:07.116 --> 0:23:09.076 do things like, you know, see if they can tea 0:23:09.476 --> 0:23:13.436