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Speaker 1: Pushkin in retrospect, it seems absolutely crazy that I thought

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Speaker 1: I had any qualification to write a book about consciousness.

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Speaker 1: It's a really difficult topic. People have been cracking their

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Speaker 1: head on it for thousands of years. But I figured, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm a curious human who happens to be conscious,

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Speaker 1: and I'm pretty good at explaining things, So I went

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Speaker 1: ahead and took the plunge.

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Speaker 2: That's renowned author Michael Pollan, not quite giving himself the

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Speaker 2: credit he deserves. Michael's written half a dozen bestsellers that

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Speaker 2: have reshaped our understanding of everything from food to psychedelics.

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Speaker 2: His latest book is called A World Appears. It tackles

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Speaker 2: the complex subject of consciousness, which he defines simply as

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Speaker 2: subjective experience.

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Speaker 1: It is kind of a mind blowing idea, Wow, there's

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Speaker 1: something mediating my relationship to reality. What is it? And

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Speaker 1: why is it that way and not this way?

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Speaker 2: On today's show, an awe inspiring, brain tickling exploration of

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Speaker 2: human consciousness. I'm maya Schunker, a scientist who studies human behavior,

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Speaker 2: and this is a slight change of plans, a show

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Speaker 2: about who we are and who we become in the

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Speaker 2: face of a big change when Michael and I last

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Speaker 2: spoke on a slight change of plans, he had just

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Speaker 2: written a book about the science of psychedelics and how

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Speaker 2: they can change our minds. It was a delightful and

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Speaker 2: philosophically rich conversation, and so when he asked me to

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Speaker 2: moderate a live event celebrating his new book, A World

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Speaker 2: of I was thrilled. Michael, I wanted to just share

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Speaker 2: a quick story to kick this off. So back in

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Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, I had just met this guy named Jimmy,

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Speaker 2: and I had a pretty big crush on him. And

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Speaker 2: I remember we were walking in DC and we were

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Speaker 2: on our way to dinner and I was weighing the

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Speaker 2: menu options in my head.

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Speaker 3: I was like, should I get poster or the sue

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Speaker 3: for the salad?

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Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe both, And all of a sudden,

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Speaker 2: Jimmy suddenly stops in his tracks and he looks at

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Speaker 2: me and he goes, man, MAYA, isn't consciousness so great?

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Speaker 2: I was like, I don't know what's up with this guy,

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Speaker 2: but he seems to be a life lover, and so

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Speaker 2: maybe I hitched myself to his wagon. Life's gonna be

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Speaker 2: great forever. Anyway, We're married, he's in the front row.

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Speaker 2: It all worked out. But needless to say, it is

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Speaker 2: such an honor for me to be in conversation with

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Speaker 2: you about a world appears. But I am getting so

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Speaker 2: many brownie points from Jimmy to do this with you tonight,

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Speaker 2: So thank you for that marital gift. The last time

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Speaker 2: I interviewed you for my podcast, The Slight Change of Plans,

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Speaker 2: you had just written a book on psychedelics and your

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Speaker 2: personal experience with psychedelics, and I know that that was

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Speaker 2: one of the big inspirations for you to explore consciousness.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell me about that experience.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So there's a funny way in which one book

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Speaker 1: kind of has the sour dough starter you carry through

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Speaker 1: to the next one. And I very often we'll look

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Speaker 1: at a book and see whether it or along the

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Speaker 1: way of writing it that there's some germ that needs

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Speaker 1: to be or seed that needs to grow. And with psychedelics,

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Speaker 1: there were two things that happened that stuck with me

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Speaker 1: after I'd finished the book, and one was this experience

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Speaker 1: I had in my garden on psilocybin and getting the

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Speaker 1: distinct impression, overwhelming impression that the plants in my garden

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Speaker 1: were conscious. I know it was. I was tripping and

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Speaker 1: they were kind of like returning my gaze, and they

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Speaker 1: they were very benevolent. They seem to like me. I

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Speaker 1: was their gardener, of course, and you know, you come

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Speaker 1: out of an experience like that, it's like, well, what's

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Speaker 1: the truth value of an insight you have on psychedelics.

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Speaker 1: It's really questionable. So that was one data point, and

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Speaker 1: the other data point was more generally about consciousness and

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Speaker 1: that psychedelics have. And I'm not the first person this

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Speaker 1: has happened to by any means, but they have a

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Speaker 1: way of kind of, as I put in the book,

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Speaker 1: smudging the windshield through which we experience reality. And most

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Speaker 1: of the time that windshield is like perfectly transparent. But

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Speaker 1: psychedelics and meditation has a way of calling attention to

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Speaker 1: the pane of glass and you're suddenly like, wow, there's

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Speaker 1: something mediating my relationship to reality. What is it? And

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Speaker 1: why is it that way and not this way? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So these two thoughts just kind of stuck with me

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Speaker 1: for a while and I realized, well, yeah, I should

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Speaker 1: look into that. In retrospect, it seems absolutely crazy that

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Speaker 1: I thought I had any qualification to write a book

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Speaker 1: about consciousness. It's a really difficult topic. People have been

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Speaker 1: cracking their head on it for thousands of years. But

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Speaker 1: I figured, well, you know, I'm a curious human who

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Speaker 1: happens to be conscious, and I'm pretty good at explaining things.

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Speaker 1: So I went ahead and took the plunge.

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Speaker 2: I was so moved by the metaphor of the smudge

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Speaker 2: on the windshield and the recognition that there is a

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Speaker 2: windshield at all, right, that there's some mediator between us

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Speaker 2: and our perception of reality. And I still remember. I

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Speaker 2: think I had two kind of similar moments. The first

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Speaker 2: is when I was in undergrad studying cognitive science, and

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Speaker 2: I first learned that there's a blind spot on our

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Speaker 2: eyes where all the nerves kind of there's like a

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Speaker 2: little bundling right right, and we just fill in that

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Speaker 2: blind spot effortlessly all the time. I'm looking now, there's

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Speaker 2: no I don't see a little black spot when I'm

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Speaker 2: looking here, I'm not, Oh my god, I'm trying to trick.

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Speaker 2: My brain figures it out no matter where I look,

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Speaker 2: however quickly I look.

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Speaker 3: It's truly extraordinary.

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Speaker 2: And another moment was when I just had a regular

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Speaker 2: eye exam, and the doctor said, oh, wow, you kind

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Speaker 2: of see things in sepia And I was like, whoa,

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Speaker 2: I'm an og Instagram filter.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but I had no idea that was a thing.

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Speaker 2: He's like, yeah, typically we see this in older populations,

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Speaker 2: but it seems like you were just born with this

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Speaker 2: sepia lens. And that was another recognition. Wow, it didn't

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Speaker 2: have to be this way. The way that I see

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Speaker 2: it is not a vertical representation necessarily of the world

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Speaker 2: around me, right, And I sort of had that all inspiring.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a mind blowing idea. I mean, the

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Speaker 1: extent to which what we perceive is actually a prediction,

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Speaker 1: not a literal transcription or taking in of the world,

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Speaker 1: and that the brain is guessing and then using senses

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Speaker 1: to error correct essentially. Yeah, it's not like we're creating

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Speaker 1: a whole new picture of reality from all our senses

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Speaker 1: all the time.

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Speaker 2: I want to start by establishing some of the basics,

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Speaker 2: because lots of things come to mind when we hear

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Speaker 2: the word consciousness. Right, what is the working definition that

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Speaker 2: you had when writing A world appears?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny. It's a universal phenomenon that people still

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Speaker 1: struggle to define, and I think it's because they're different.

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Speaker 1: Layers of consciousness is part of it, but at the

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Speaker 1: most simple level, it's subjective experience. You have subjective experience

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Speaker 1: of the world, and your appliances don't have that. They

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Speaker 1: don't have any experience. So that's one definition. Another is

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Speaker 1: Thomas Nagel, the philosopher wrote a famous essay called what

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Speaker 1: Is It Like to Be a Bat? So bats are

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Speaker 1: very different than we are. They don't have a visual system,

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Speaker 1: they have zonar. Basically they navigate the world through echolocation.

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Speaker 1: And he said, I if it is like something to

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Speaker 1: be a bat, then about is conscious? And we can

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Speaker 1: kind of guess using our imagination and there's no other

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Speaker 1: way to do it. What it would be like to

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Speaker 1: go through life using echoes rather than reflections of light

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Speaker 1: to see where we are? So is it like something?

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Speaker 1: Does it feel like something to be any animal or

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Speaker 1: a plant? And then if that's true, then it is conscious.

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Speaker 1: And that's been a pretty handy I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's a definition exactly, but kind of framing of the

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Speaker 1: problem that has been accepted by a lot of the

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Speaker 1: scientists who are working on it. There are other levels

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Speaker 1: to consciousness though in humans, I mean, there is the

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Speaker 1: fact that we are not just aware, but we're aware.

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Speaker 1: We're aware, and that's pretty wild. We have you know,

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Speaker 1: meta consciousness. That's when it gets a little complicated, and

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Speaker 1: we have voices in our head which you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't need to be conscious, but that's the way we

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Speaker 1: do it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would love to take a moment to just

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Speaker 2: marvel at the fact that we do have consciousness, because

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Speaker 2: it is something that many of us take for granted.

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Speaker 2: I feel like the first time I thought about consciousness

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Speaker 2: was when I was literally just in a class called

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Speaker 2: intro to cognitive science, and that was when I was

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Speaker 2: a college student. I'd kind of gone the whole rest

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Speaker 2: of my life taking this incredible thing for granted. And

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Speaker 2: you know, there's a counterfactual world that's easy to conjure

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Speaker 2: up in which we humans engaged in all the behaviors

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Speaker 2: that we engage in, have all the intelligence that we have,

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Speaker 2: and yet we do lack this inner experience, right the

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Speaker 2: lights aren't on.

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Speaker 1: So to speak, zombie thought experience.

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Speaker 3: Exactly, the philosophical zombie.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's one of the interesting phenomena

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Speaker 1: of consciousness that most of what your brain does you're

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Speaker 1: not aware of. Right, your brain is regulating your body

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Speaker 1: twenty four to seven heart rate, blood pressure, all this

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff, plus processing lots of information from the environment,

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Speaker 1: and it's all automatic. So the question is, why is

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Speaker 1: any of it not automatic? Why don't we automate everything?

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Speaker 1: And the best theory I think explain this, and it's

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Speaker 1: an evolutionary theory, is that for social beings, navigating social

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Speaker 1: reality is key, and what other people are going to

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Speaker 1: do is very unpredictable. So you need consciousness to be

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Speaker 1: able to imagine your way into other people's heads. You

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Speaker 1: could imagine two different types of people, one who doesn't

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Speaker 1: really think that you have consciousness or you have a

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Speaker 1: point of view, versus someone who has that ability to

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Speaker 1: create a space in their head where they can imagine

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Speaker 1: what's going on in your head. That that would be

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Speaker 1: a big survival advantage, that you would be more likely

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Speaker 1: to be able to form bonds with other people because

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Speaker 1: of that. So consciousness creates a space for decision making

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Speaker 1: a space for imagination, and I think that that has

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Speaker 1: a real evolutionary utility for a social species like us.

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Speaker 2: Another thing that's astonishing is just that when physical stuff.

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Speaker 2: You know, in this case, the neurons in our brains

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Speaker 2: get organized a certain way in inner experience emerges at all.

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Speaker 1: That is the hard problem.

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Speaker 2: This is the hard problem of consciousness. So can you

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Speaker 2: define the hard problem and then share what theories are

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Speaker 2: floating around that have helped to explain the hard problem?

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Speaker 1: Well, there are two hundred theories.

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Speaker 2: If you could just name each of them, Michael, that

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Speaker 2: would be really please be comprehensive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, the hard problem is basically, how do you

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Speaker 1: get from matter to mind? How do you get from

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Speaker 1: a certain organization of neurons presumably because we don't know

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Speaker 1: that for a fact, and how does consciousness emerge from that?

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Speaker 1: So that's the hard problem. Why isn't it all automated?

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Speaker 1: Also as part of the hard problem, and David Chalmers

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Speaker 1: is the philosopher who came up with that term for it,

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Speaker 1: you know, just to give you an example of a

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Speaker 1: theory or two, there's something called global neuronal workspace theory.

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Speaker 1: And that's the idea that you have all these modules

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Speaker 1: in your brain that are competing for the attention of

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Speaker 1: the whole and when the most salient information gets into

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Speaker 1: the workspace, it's broadcast to the whole brain and becomes conscious,

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Speaker 1: so the whole brain can work on it and deal

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Speaker 1: with it. So that's interesting. I mean, it still doesn't

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Speaker 1: answer like, well, who's the conscious subject that is receiving

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Speaker 1: that broadcast? And that's where everybody falls down and starts

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Speaker 1: waving their hands. And part of that is the problem

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Speaker 1: that our science is based on third person, objective, quantifiable

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Speaker 1: you know, ever since Galileo. That's what science is, physical

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Speaker 1: science anyway, and we're talking about a subjective phenomenon, so

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Speaker 1: there's no traction. How do you get how do you

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Speaker 1: get in? How do you and you know Galileo left

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Speaker 1: all that to the church, you know, that was the soul, subjectivity,

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Speaker 1: qualitative experience, and he knew what he was doing. He

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Speaker 1: was protecting science from the church, which otherwise would have

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Speaker 1: crushed it, and did try to crush it. You know,

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Speaker 1: this idea that you take a complex phenomenon and you

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Speaker 1: reduce it to you know, matter and energy, it just

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Speaker 1: doesn't work for consciousness, and it may never work for consciousness.

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Speaker 1: We may need a different kind of science. So that's

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Speaker 1: a brain based theory. But there are others that are

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Speaker 1: not brain based, and they strike us as really out there,

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Speaker 1: but there's no reason to dismiss them. I don't think.

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Speaker 1: One is panpsychism, which is that everything that consciousness didn't

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Speaker 1: have to evolve, It was always here. Every every particle

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Speaker 1: in this table has some weensy little bit of psyche

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Speaker 1: and somehow it gets combined to form larger consciousnesses like

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Speaker 1: our own. That's a high price to pay, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean to change the nature of matter, you know,

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Speaker 1: to accommodate your theory. But we've done that before. You know,

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Speaker 1: two hundred years ago Faraday discovered that they are electromagnetic

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Speaker 1: waves all over this room right now, and we didn't

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Speaker 1: know about that.

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Speaker 2: So you're telling me you believe in panpsychism.

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Speaker 3: I know you don't.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't, but I don't not believe in it either.

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Speaker 3: Okay, just because we don't know, I don't.

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Speaker 2: Can I just just quibble with one piece of it,

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Speaker 2: which is and then I understand. I'll have said all

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Speaker 2: the pan psychist supporters out there, but it's not just

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Speaker 2: it feels it's probably a.

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Speaker 3: Very small constituency.

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Speaker 2: But it feels like with panpsychism that yes, you've eliminated

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Speaker 2: one hard problem, but in doing so, you created it.

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Speaker 3: At least two new ones, like one, what.

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Speaker 2: Imbued those entities like the atom that makes up this

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Speaker 2: table with consciousness?

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Speaker 3: Where did that come from? Who's the initiator of that?

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Speaker 2: And then how do those individual conscious units merge?

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Speaker 1: Well, the combination problem, which is the hard problem of panpsychism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so they answered it with another I know, I know,

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Speaker 2: but it's sort of like physics, you know, deciding that

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Speaker 2: you know, well, we have this problem, but if we

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Speaker 2: stipulate a multiverse, the.

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Speaker 1: Problem solved, so so you know, it works at some

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Speaker 1: theoretical level. The other idea is that consciousness is a

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Speaker 1: field all around us like electro magnetic waves, and we

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Speaker 1: channel consciousness so that we should think of the brain.

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Speaker 1: The brain is still intimately involved, and you know, if

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Speaker 1: you damage the brain, you damage consciousness, and if you

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Speaker 1: change the brain, you change consciousness. But the brain is

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Speaker 1: a receiver. These are transmission theories of consciousness, and that

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Speaker 1: the brain is like a radio or television receiver. And

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Speaker 1: in the same way you wouldn't look for the weather

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Speaker 1: lady or guy in the in your TV set. That's

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Speaker 1: not where you're going to find him. That's not where

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Speaker 1: you're going to find consciousness either. So it's coming in.

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Speaker 1: Alvius Huxley believe this theory. Omri Berrickson was a philosopher

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Speaker 1: who believed it. And you know, how do you prove

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Speaker 1: these theories? They're not they're not provable.

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Speaker 3: Is there one that you find?

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Speaker 2: I you know, you said there's over two hundred one

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Speaker 2: that you find particularly compelling. Something new, a new version

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Speaker 2: you learned of that you were like.

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Speaker 1: I didn't finally like come out and argue one theory

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Speaker 1: of consciousness, But there was a line of research that

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Speaker 1: I found the most helpful in understanding consciousness. And that

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Speaker 1: goes back to a neurologist, Antonio Dimasio. For a long time,

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Speaker 1: we thought that consciousness had to be a product of

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Speaker 1: the cortex, this you know, new part of the most

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Speaker 1: advanced human part of the brain. Surely, you know consciousness,

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Speaker 1: this great achievement of humans, must originate there. But he

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Speaker 1: suggests it starts with feelings, not with thoughts, hunger and

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Speaker 1: thirst and warmth and itch, and that these are the

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Speaker 1: inaugural acts of consciousness. Basically, you know, we forget that

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Speaker 1: the brain exists to support the body, keep the body alive,

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Speaker 1: not the other way around. And feelings are the language

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Speaker 1: that the body uses to communicate with the brain and

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Speaker 1: tell it when homeostasis is not working right, when you're

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Speaker 1: too hot to cold, hungry, you know whatever. And these feelings,

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Speaker 1: some of them are dealt with automatically, but some of

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Speaker 1: them have to be dealt with consciously. So it begins

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Speaker 1: in the brain stem, not in the cortex, the upper

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Speaker 1: brain stem. And indeed, if you have a leisure in

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Speaker 1: the upper brainstem, you lose consciousness, whereas if you lack

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Speaker 1: a cortex completely, there's evidence that you are conscious. So

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Speaker 1: that's kind of the evidence they're working with. There still

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Speaker 1: is the question of who's doing the feeling, and saying

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Speaker 1: that feelings by definition are felt doesn't quite answer that problem.

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Speaker 1: But I found that line of reasoning really compelling, and

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Speaker 1: I think that we need to pay more attention to

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Speaker 1: feelings as an originator of consciousness.

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Speaker 2: He mentioned, there's some evidence to show that there is consciousness.

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Speaker 2: How is it that researchers have found ways to evaluate

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Speaker 2: consciousness and other entities given that we can never fully know,

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Speaker 2: So we're like tris for consciousness.

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Speaker 1: In other creatures.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or in the person with the brain damage as

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Speaker 2: you were describing.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well, there's a horrible form of brain damage.

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Speaker 1: Certain kids are born without a cortex, and nevertheless they

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Speaker 1: appear to have appropriate emotional reactions to things, to various stimuli,

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Speaker 1: and animals can be decorticated, which sounds pretty awful, and

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Speaker 1: that they too show evidence of consciousness. Again, though you

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Speaker 1: know you have to impute consciousness. You can't even I

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Speaker 1: have to impute it to you. I can't be sure

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Speaker 1: you're conscious. There's no way to prove someone is conscious

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Speaker 1: except oh, you've got the behaviors of a conscious being

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Speaker 1: and you're you know, you're my species, and you know

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Speaker 1: they don't take this personal.

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Speaker 2: Yes, talk about breaking emotional intimacy, man. So one question

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Speaker 2: I have is what the necessary ingredients are for creating

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Speaker 2: a conscious entity? And again, in this whole space, it's

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Speaker 2: always just about theories, right, I Mean, one of the

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Speaker 2: things you open the book by saying is like, you

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Speaker 2: went on this quest, and there's even more things to

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Speaker 2: be confused about post the quest than before. But how

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Speaker 2: do people think about the necessary ingredients? And obviously this

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Speaker 2: is particularly pertinent right now in the era of AI,

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Speaker 2: and whether scientists ever deem AI to be conscious, it's.

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Speaker 1: Going to be really hard to tell. Already. You know,

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Speaker 1: ais that are clearly not conscious are convincing people they

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Speaker 1: are conscious. People are falling in love with chatbots. People

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Speaker 1: are convinced they've solved important problems of math and physics

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Speaker 1: who aren't even mathematicians or physicists. People are being convinced

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Speaker 1: they're gods. There's AI psychosis is a real thing right now.

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Speaker 1: It's really frightening. I don't think AIS can be conscious.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I can, you know, make that argument for

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Speaker 1: you if you want, But the point is it's not

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Speaker 1: going to matter, because people are going to think they're conscious.

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Speaker 1: The usual test, so we had this Turing test right

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Speaker 1: to determine if a computer is intelligent, and if he

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Speaker 1: could fool someone an intelligent human who didn't know he

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Speaker 1: was talking to a computer or she was talking to

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Speaker 1: a computer, then it was intelligent. But that doesn't work

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Speaker 1: for consciousness because consciousness is pretty easy to fake. We

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Speaker 1: anthropomorphize everything. It's just a human bias, I think, to

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Speaker 1: anthropomorphized thing, and it's safer to anthropomortize. And so I

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Speaker 1: think the only test, and I'm saying this is someone

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Speaker 1: with very little computer sophistication, would be to build an

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Speaker 1: AI from which you never included any of the human

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Speaker 1: conversation about consciousness or feelings, and you don't give it

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Speaker 1: any novels to read, no poetry, and then have a

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Speaker 1: conversation with it about consciousness. And I'm guessing it won't

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Speaker 1: do very well. Yeah, but I don't know. I hope

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Speaker 1: someone who you know works for Google will undertake this.

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Speaker 3: It makes a lot of sense.

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Speaker 2: I think, brilliant instincts that that would be how we

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Speaker 2: could at least get some sort of signal, right at

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Speaker 2: a meaningful, reliable signal out of the machine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And you know, I think the feeling issue.

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Speaker 1: If it is true that consciousness depends on feelings, which

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Speaker 1: is to say, on a body, Yeah, then that's a

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Speaker 1: real problem for ais. They lack bodies. If you think

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Speaker 1: about what a feeling is, it's very much tied to

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Speaker 1: having a body that is vulnerable, that can suffer, and

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Speaker 1: probably that it's mortal. And I don't see that working

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Speaker 1: for machines.

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Speaker 2: How should we think about the constituent parts of consciousness?

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Speaker 2: Does it require a nervous system? People used to think, Oh,

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Speaker 2: it's intelligence, that's all the needed. If the thing becomes

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Speaker 2: intelligent enough, consciousness.

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Speaker 1: Will enron but they're actually very different ideas intelligence and consciousness.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think they're kind of orthogonal. I don't

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Speaker 1: think one. I mean, we all know people that are

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Speaker 1: conscious but not that intelligent, and the other way around.

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Speaker 1: I'm not so sure.

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Speaker 2: You is your instinct then that consciousness requires a nervous

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Speaker 2: system of some kind.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, the plants are doing pretty well without

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Speaker 1: a nervous system. You know, first chapters about what science

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Speaker 1: has to say about plant consciousness or sentience, which is

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Speaker 1: a much more appropriate word I think when it comes

396
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Speaker 1: to plants. And I learned all this incredible research. There's

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Speaker 1: a group of kind of renegade botanists. They call themselves

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Speaker 1: plant neurobiologists, even though they are no neurons involved. They're

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Speaker 1: trolling more conventional botanists by calling themselves that. And they

400
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Speaker 1: do things like, you know, see if they can tea

401
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Speaker 1: plant and see how long it'll remember a lesson. And yes,

402
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Speaker 1: you can teach a plant and it will remember for

403
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Speaker 1: like twenty eight days, which is twenty seven more than

404
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Speaker 1: a fruitfly. I can remember anything. Oh what else can

405
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Speaker 1: they do? I mean, there's a vine that changes its

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Speaker 1: leaf shape depending on what plant it's colonizing. Yeah, how

407
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Speaker 1: does it see the leaf shape to imitate it? How

408
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Speaker 1: does it do that? We don't really know. They can hear.

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Speaker 1: If you play a recording of caterpillars munching on leaves,

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Speaker 1: they will react and send toxins to their own leaves

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Speaker 1: and alert other plants. They recognize self and kin. If

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Speaker 1: you put them in a pot to compete, if they're

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Speaker 1: with a related plant, they won't compete. They'll share, incredible,

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Speaker 1: but they'll compete otherwise. So they have some sense of

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Speaker 1: self and other anyway, and the same anesthetics that will

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Speaker 1: put out a human put out plants. Now you might think, well,

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Speaker 1: they're already kind of out, aren't they, But no, they're not.

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Speaker 1: They have behaviors, they're just very slow. So they have

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Speaker 1: two modes of being. That's really curious anyway. So I

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Speaker 1: went deep and finally concluded that I wouldn't use the

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Speaker 1: word conscious for them, in that they don't have interiority,

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Speaker 1: They don't have a voice in their heads, they don't

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Speaker 1: have heads. But they're sentient, and sensient is kind of

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Speaker 1: a more basic form of consciousness, more elemental, and it

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Speaker 1: really just connotes they have senses, they feel and they

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Speaker 1: can recognize good and bad changes in their environment and

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Speaker 1: respond appropriately, and that may be a property of life.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not prepared to say you need a nervous

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Speaker 1: system to have consciousness.

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Speaker 2: After the break, Michael's exploration of consciousness takes a personal turn,

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Speaker 2: and he's quite surprised by what he finds. That's in

432
00:25:05,636 --> 00:25:30,956
Speaker 2: a moment on a slight change of plans. As the

433
00:25:30,996 --> 00:25:33,876
Speaker 2: book advances, things get more personal, right, So you get

434
00:25:33,876 --> 00:25:37,356
Speaker 2: to the feeling and thinking in self chapters and you

435
00:25:37,636 --> 00:25:41,276
Speaker 2: end up interrogating your own consciousness. You're like, let me

436
00:25:41,316 --> 00:25:45,796
Speaker 2: do some firsthand experimenting and observation here, and you conduct

437
00:25:45,796 --> 00:25:50,356
Speaker 2: this fun little experiment in which you are quite surprised

438
00:25:50,436 --> 00:25:52,236
Speaker 2: by the findings. Do you mind sharing that?

439
00:25:53,316 --> 00:25:56,116
Speaker 1: Yeah? So this isn't a book all about science. It's

440
00:25:56,156 --> 00:25:58,276
Speaker 1: a book that kind of starts with science but ends

441
00:25:58,316 --> 00:26:04,796
Speaker 1: up somewhere different. And as I was talking to these

442
00:26:04,836 --> 00:26:08,556
Speaker 1: scientists who work on consciousness, I realized what they were

443
00:26:08,596 --> 00:26:10,716
Speaker 1: talking about and what was going on in my head.

444
00:26:10,716 --> 00:26:13,596
Speaker 1: We're not quite the same thing. And it's not because

445
00:26:13,636 --> 00:26:16,516
Speaker 1: I'm so idiosyncratic. It's that they focused on things like

446
00:26:16,676 --> 00:26:19,316
Speaker 1: visual perception, because that's what we know the most about

447
00:26:19,356 --> 00:26:22,076
Speaker 1: in the brain. But when I think of consciousness, I

448
00:26:22,076 --> 00:26:24,996
Speaker 1: think of thoughts, I think of interiority, I think of

449
00:26:25,236 --> 00:26:27,316
Speaker 1: all these other things, and they don't want to go

450
00:26:27,476 --> 00:26:30,076
Speaker 1: near that. It's hard enough to figure out how a

451
00:26:30,156 --> 00:26:34,116
Speaker 1: world appears to our perceptions. So I went looking for

452
00:26:34,196 --> 00:26:37,596
Speaker 1: scientists who were looking at thought and I met this

453
00:26:37,676 --> 00:26:41,356
Speaker 1: guy named Russell Hurlbert who teaches at the University of

454
00:26:41,436 --> 00:26:44,396
Speaker 1: Las Vegas, and he has been doing one experiment for

455
00:26:44,436 --> 00:26:49,676
Speaker 1: fifty years of his life, and that is sampling people's

456
00:26:49,676 --> 00:26:53,076
Speaker 1: inner experience. And he does this with this He has

457
00:26:53,076 --> 00:26:57,316
Speaker 1: a beeper device that you carry around, and fifty years

458
00:26:57,316 --> 00:27:00,796
Speaker 1: ago there were no beepers, there were no personal electronic devices.

459
00:27:00,836 --> 00:27:02,876
Speaker 1: He had to design and build it, and it has

460
00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:05,956
Speaker 1: a little ear piece and you keep the thing in

461
00:27:05,996 --> 00:27:09,916
Speaker 1: your pocket and at random times of day, the sharp

462
00:27:10,076 --> 00:27:13,996
Speaker 1: beep goes into your ear and you know immediately what

463
00:27:14,036 --> 00:27:16,196
Speaker 1: it is, and you take out a pad and you

464
00:27:16,236 --> 00:27:18,836
Speaker 1: write down what you were thinking, and then you do

465
00:27:18,916 --> 00:27:21,516
Speaker 1: about five beeps in a day, and then you have

466
00:27:21,556 --> 00:27:23,516
Speaker 1: a session with him on zoom where he kind of

467
00:27:23,516 --> 00:27:27,156
Speaker 1: interrogates you. So, for example, I would have a beep

468
00:27:27,436 --> 00:27:29,636
Speaker 1: and I have to warn you my beeps were very

469
00:27:29,636 --> 00:27:37,116
Speaker 1: banal and often involved food. So I had this beat.

470
00:27:37,436 --> 00:27:40,796
Speaker 1: I had seasoned a filet of salmon, and I was

471
00:27:40,836 --> 00:27:42,796
Speaker 1: walking to the fridge to put it in the fridge

472
00:27:42,836 --> 00:27:45,996
Speaker 1: and then beep, And at that moment I was thinking, shit,

473
00:27:46,076 --> 00:27:49,836
Speaker 1: I forgot the pepper, and that seemed like a good,

474
00:27:49,956 --> 00:27:52,956
Speaker 1: clear beep. But when I went to talk to Russell

475
00:27:52,956 --> 00:27:56,516
Speaker 1: about him, he would say, well, did you hear that?

476
00:27:57,436 --> 00:27:59,716
Speaker 1: Did you hear the word pepper or did you say

477
00:27:59,756 --> 00:28:02,556
Speaker 1: the word pepper? So when you have that voice in

478
00:28:02,596 --> 00:28:04,436
Speaker 1: your head, are you listening to it or are you

479
00:28:04,556 --> 00:28:07,556
Speaker 1: speaking it? And that's very hard to determine. I had

480
00:28:07,636 --> 00:28:12,956
Speaker 1: no idea, and it was really a hard experiment. Part

481
00:28:12,996 --> 00:28:15,916
Speaker 1: of it is you're constantly wondering, what if the beep

482
00:28:15,996 --> 00:28:22,036
Speaker 1: goes off now? And you're allowed to erase a couple

483
00:28:22,076 --> 00:28:28,316
Speaker 1: beeps if it's like too embarrassing. Anyway, it was an

484
00:28:28,356 --> 00:28:31,556
Speaker 1: interesting experiment. But fifty years later I said, so, what

485
00:28:31,596 --> 00:28:34,076
Speaker 1: have you learned? He's a funny guy. He's like totally

486
00:28:34,156 --> 00:28:38,316
Speaker 1: allergic to theory. He's drawn no theoretical conclusions from this work.

487
00:28:38,596 --> 00:28:43,196
Speaker 1: He's got fifty years of data and he doesn't believe

488
00:28:43,236 --> 00:28:45,876
Speaker 1: in theory, and you know, when I told him I

489
00:28:45,956 --> 00:28:48,316
Speaker 1: was writing a book on consciousness, he was like, good

490
00:28:48,396 --> 00:28:54,876
Speaker 1: luck with that anyway. The finding, though, which I think

491
00:28:54,916 --> 00:28:57,716
Speaker 1: is really significant, is that, you know, most of us

492
00:28:57,756 --> 00:29:01,796
Speaker 1: assume our thoughts are in the form of language, and

493
00:29:01,996 --> 00:29:04,996
Speaker 1: he says that's actually a minority. There are lots of

494
00:29:05,036 --> 00:29:08,476
Speaker 1: people who have their thoughts are visual, They see and

495
00:29:08,756 --> 00:29:11,196
Speaker 1: they think in images. Then there are people who think

496
00:29:11,236 --> 00:29:15,596
Speaker 1: an unsymbolized thought. And the word thought, which we all

497
00:29:15,636 --> 00:29:18,156
Speaker 1: think we know what it means, like what are you thinking,

498
00:29:18,756 --> 00:29:21,756
Speaker 1: means very different things to different people. And that was

499
00:29:21,916 --> 00:29:25,036
Speaker 1: kind of interesting to me because I assume that, you know,

500
00:29:25,156 --> 00:29:27,956
Speaker 1: language is at the heart of it, but he has

501
00:29:28,036 --> 00:29:30,676
Speaker 1: found that not to be the case. We resort to

502
00:29:30,756 --> 00:29:33,796
Speaker 1: language obviously to tell our thoughts to other people, but

503
00:29:33,836 --> 00:29:35,916
Speaker 1: they don't start there. And we had a lot of

504
00:29:36,036 --> 00:29:40,516
Speaker 1: arguments because I just didn't believe you could disaggregate a

505
00:29:40,556 --> 00:29:44,396
Speaker 1: thought that in my experience, there were multiple things going

506
00:29:44,396 --> 00:29:46,956
Speaker 1: on at the same time that I was like that

507
00:29:47,036 --> 00:29:49,476
Speaker 1: the cheeseboard deciding whether to buy a roll or not,

508
00:29:49,716 --> 00:29:54,236
Speaker 1: this was another big thought I had, But I was

509
00:29:54,276 --> 00:29:56,676
Speaker 1: also looking at the plaid skirt on the woman in

510
00:29:56,676 --> 00:29:58,396
Speaker 1: front of me that was really unflattering.

511
00:29:58,596 --> 00:29:59,436
Speaker 4: And I was.

512
00:30:01,036 --> 00:30:03,716
Speaker 1: Smelling the cheeses and the cheeseboard and the smell of

513
00:30:03,796 --> 00:30:05,876
Speaker 1: bake goods, and there were all these things going on.

514
00:30:06,196 --> 00:30:09,436
Speaker 1: And I had also just read William James's s say

515
00:30:09,956 --> 00:30:13,476
Speaker 1: on the Stream of Thought, and he's just so granular

516
00:30:13,596 --> 00:30:16,276
Speaker 1: about the nature of our thoughts. And he said, you know,

517
00:30:16,356 --> 00:30:20,276
Speaker 1: no thought, no two thoughts are alike, even your own thoughts.

518
00:30:20,276 --> 00:30:22,916
Speaker 1: Whenever you come back to a thought, it has been

519
00:30:23,236 --> 00:30:29,556
Speaker 1: colored or tinted by the thought that came before. And

520
00:30:29,636 --> 00:30:33,356
Speaker 1: so Hurlbert was making me dissect my thoughts and separate them.

521
00:30:33,396 --> 00:30:36,596
Speaker 1: So finally, at our final debrief, I said, so, what

522
00:30:36,676 --> 00:30:39,076
Speaker 1: kind of thinker do you think I am? And he said, well,

523
00:30:39,076 --> 00:30:41,036
Speaker 1: there's a fourth category, and these are people who have

524
00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:49,836
Speaker 1: very little inner life. So there you have it.

525
00:30:54,036 --> 00:30:56,956
Speaker 3: We have here an impoverished in your mind.

526
00:30:57,956 --> 00:30:59,556
Speaker 1: Talk about the zombie problem.

527
00:31:00,036 --> 00:31:02,476
Speaker 2: That's the kind of mind that produces this. I think

528
00:31:02,476 --> 00:31:06,116
Speaker 2: we're in good shape, Michael. The rest of us are hopeless.

529
00:31:07,276 --> 00:31:11,196
Speaker 2: I'm assuming that, given your profession, the fact that you

530
00:31:11,356 --> 00:31:14,956
Speaker 2: write for a living, you assumed, as I think you

531
00:31:14,996 --> 00:31:16,756
Speaker 2: were nodding to this right, you kind of assumed that

532
00:31:16,836 --> 00:31:20,996
Speaker 2: you thought in words of some kind, right, and then

533
00:31:21,036 --> 00:31:24,036
Speaker 2: what did you observe? So, for example, when you said, oh,

534
00:31:24,036 --> 00:31:27,556
Speaker 2: should I forgot the pepper? When you tried to dissect that,

535
00:31:27,796 --> 00:31:30,076
Speaker 2: did you notice that an image had come to mind

536
00:31:30,156 --> 00:31:30,796
Speaker 2: of the pepper?

537
00:31:31,556 --> 00:31:34,756
Speaker 1: And it was clearly a word pepper? It was just

538
00:31:34,836 --> 00:31:37,756
Speaker 1: so clear. But I realized a lot of my thoughts

539
00:31:38,356 --> 00:31:42,516
Speaker 1: are what James called promontory thoughts, thoughts on the verge

540
00:31:42,516 --> 00:31:45,996
Speaker 1: of becoming words, and that there's a gap between the

541
00:31:46,076 --> 00:31:49,316
Speaker 1: thought and the word. And I definitely have that. I mean,

542
00:31:49,516 --> 00:31:51,516
Speaker 1: I'll have thought and I have to think a little

543
00:31:51,516 --> 00:31:54,876
Speaker 1: more to put it into words. So I don't think

544
00:31:55,476 --> 00:31:58,516
Speaker 1: I think in words I would have assumed I did,

545
00:31:59,156 --> 00:32:03,676
Speaker 1: But I think in something just a little bit. Yeah,

546
00:32:03,916 --> 00:32:04,756
Speaker 1: pre linguistic.

547
00:32:05,596 --> 00:32:09,996
Speaker 2: And do you find that or when you're thinking, when

548
00:32:10,076 --> 00:32:13,396
Speaker 2: you think about your thoughts in the context of an

549
00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:16,276
Speaker 2: experiment in which you know you're going to be judged, Oh,

550
00:32:16,316 --> 00:32:16,596
Speaker 2: there's a.

551
00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:18,956
Speaker 1: Huge observer of your thoughts without questions.

552
00:32:19,036 --> 00:32:22,516
Speaker 2: Yes, like the what kinds of artifacts did you notice emerge?

553
00:32:22,636 --> 00:32:25,676
Speaker 2: Like were you you maybe rounded out of thought a

554
00:32:25,716 --> 00:32:28,276
Speaker 2: little bit? Or the skirt wasn't that bad?

555
00:32:28,676 --> 00:32:28,996
Speaker 5: Was it?

556
00:32:30,836 --> 00:32:33,796
Speaker 1: Yeah? No, it does make you self conscious, Yeah, meditation

557
00:32:33,956 --> 00:32:36,596
Speaker 1: does that too. You know. Meditation is one of these

558
00:32:36,636 --> 00:32:39,356
Speaker 1: places we can go to watch our thoughts and it's

559
00:32:39,756 --> 00:32:43,356
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting how weird they are. And we don't

560
00:32:43,476 --> 00:32:49,756
Speaker 1: really think about that very often, but I'm always struck by, like,

561
00:32:49,836 --> 00:32:51,796
Speaker 1: where did that thought come from? I go to a

562
00:32:51,836 --> 00:32:55,276
Speaker 1: meditation class and the teacher will often do this exercise

563
00:32:55,316 --> 00:32:59,236
Speaker 1: of like go into your mind, and you know, you've

564
00:32:59,276 --> 00:33:03,156
Speaker 1: observed your thoughts and your feelings, and now look for

565
00:33:03,276 --> 00:33:04,236
Speaker 1: who's thinking them.

566
00:33:04,396 --> 00:33:05,716
Speaker 3: Yes, oh my gosh, who's the.

567
00:33:05,636 --> 00:33:07,996
Speaker 1: Thinker of your thoughts? Who's the feeler of your feelings?

568
00:33:08,316 --> 00:33:14,636
Speaker 1: And there's nobody home, I mean, in my case to

569
00:33:14,636 --> 00:33:18,996
Speaker 1: speak for you already established that. So I mean and

570
00:33:19,116 --> 00:33:22,036
Speaker 1: David Yume did this experiment in the seventeen forties. You know,

571
00:33:22,116 --> 00:33:25,596
Speaker 1: he was trying to understand the self, and he went

572
00:33:25,676 --> 00:33:30,196
Speaker 1: looking for it in his own, you know, by introspecting,

573
00:33:30,236 --> 00:33:32,796
Speaker 1: and he said, I found plenty of perceptions and ideas

574
00:33:32,796 --> 00:33:38,276
Speaker 1: and feelings, but I didn't find any perceiver. And the

575
00:33:38,356 --> 00:33:41,556
Speaker 1: self is a very elusive concept and it's one of

576
00:33:41,556 --> 00:33:47,356
Speaker 1: the more interesting creations or manifestations of consciousness. And so yeah, so,

577
00:33:47,516 --> 00:33:49,276
Speaker 1: and I you know, I looked at the Zena or

578
00:33:49,316 --> 00:33:51,796
Speaker 1: Buddhist ideas of self too, and you know, they believe

579
00:33:51,836 --> 00:33:55,596
Speaker 1: self is an illusion, and I get where they come out.

580
00:33:55,876 --> 00:33:59,236
Speaker 1: I mean, but I also think that there is I mean,

581
00:33:59,276 --> 00:34:02,036
Speaker 1: there's a conventional self right there's the self that you

582
00:34:02,076 --> 00:34:07,476
Speaker 1: and I are experiencing right now, and there may be

583
00:34:07,556 --> 00:34:11,996
Speaker 1: no basis for it, but it's nevertheless conventionally useful. But

584
00:34:12,076 --> 00:34:14,476
Speaker 1: it's also very interesting. And I explored this in this

585
00:34:14,556 --> 00:34:19,876
Speaker 1: chapter on the Self, that consciousness can survive the disappearance

586
00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:22,316
Speaker 1: of the self. I was surprised by that.

587
00:34:22,476 --> 00:34:24,596
Speaker 3: You're telling in the context of a psychedelic trip.

588
00:34:24,716 --> 00:34:27,316
Speaker 1: That's one context, but there are other context too. I mean,

589
00:34:28,036 --> 00:34:31,916
Speaker 1: experienced meditators get to a point of complete selflessness, yet

590
00:34:31,916 --> 00:34:35,396
Speaker 1: there's still conscious. There's a philosopher I interviewed named Thomas

591
00:34:35,396 --> 00:34:39,156
Speaker 1: Metzinger who's collected like a fifteen hundred case studies of

592
00:34:39,236 --> 00:34:42,756
Speaker 1: people having consciousness without a self only, some of which

593
00:34:42,796 --> 00:34:45,876
Speaker 1: are psychedelic. And he points out that we all have

594
00:34:46,036 --> 00:34:49,916
Speaker 1: this experience every morning when we wake up and there

595
00:34:49,996 --> 00:34:54,156
Speaker 1: is that five hundred millisecond gap between like until you

596
00:34:54,236 --> 00:34:57,716
Speaker 1: realize where you are and who you are, and if

597
00:34:57,716 --> 00:34:59,556
Speaker 1: you're in a hotel room, it's like seven hundred and

598
00:34:59,596 --> 00:35:04,476
Speaker 1: fifty milliseconds. No, because it's very disorienting. Yeah, and so

599
00:35:05,156 --> 00:35:09,196
Speaker 1: we've all been there. So yeah, the self is a

600
00:35:09,396 --> 00:35:10,316
Speaker 1: challenging concept.

601
00:35:10,396 --> 00:35:13,796
Speaker 2: I feel like one of the fastest ways to challenge

602
00:35:13,836 --> 00:35:16,236
Speaker 2: my personal belief that I have any free will at

603
00:35:16,236 --> 00:35:18,796
Speaker 2: all is to ask myself where a thought came from?

604
00:35:19,036 --> 00:35:20,956
Speaker 3: And then where where where did that? Who did that?

605
00:35:20,996 --> 00:35:23,756
Speaker 2: Who generated that thought? And then who generated that other thought?

606
00:35:23,796 --> 00:35:26,316
Speaker 2: And oh my god, Okay, yeah I don't I'm not

607
00:35:26,356 --> 00:35:29,396
Speaker 2: in control of any of it. Yeah, They're all just happening.

608
00:35:29,716 --> 00:35:30,636
Speaker 3: There's no conductor.

609
00:35:31,716 --> 00:35:36,076
Speaker 1: It's it's very it's very interesting, and you defamiliarize these

610
00:35:36,076 --> 00:35:38,556
Speaker 1: things that you just take for granted, and so you

611
00:35:38,596 --> 00:35:40,076
Speaker 1: may not want to go down that whole past.

612
00:35:40,196 --> 00:35:44,036
Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to get to questions. So I have

613
00:35:44,036 --> 00:35:47,436
Speaker 2: one final, one final question for you. I feel like,

614
00:35:47,436 --> 00:35:48,996
Speaker 2: by the way, if my beeper went off right now,

615
00:35:49,036 --> 00:35:52,836
Speaker 2: it would be is cheeseboard going to be open after

616
00:35:53,036 --> 00:35:55,916
Speaker 2: this event and so that I can grab a slice?

617
00:35:56,076 --> 00:35:56,756
Speaker 3: Thank you for that.

618
00:35:57,116 --> 00:36:01,196
Speaker 2: We do share the food obsession in commons. This is great, Okay, Uh.

619
00:36:01,916 --> 00:36:02,596
Speaker 3: I want to know.

620
00:36:05,036 --> 00:36:07,676
Speaker 2: How has writing this book changed the way that you

621
00:36:07,756 --> 00:36:11,556
Speaker 2: live your life?

622
00:36:12,756 --> 00:36:13,676
Speaker 1: That's a good question.

623
00:36:15,996 --> 00:36:16,196
Speaker 6: You know.

624
00:36:16,436 --> 00:36:23,276
Speaker 1: It's definitely made me more aware of my thought processes.

625
00:36:23,516 --> 00:36:26,596
Speaker 1: I'm more definitely more aware of the windshield as I

626
00:36:26,636 --> 00:36:30,276
Speaker 1: go through life. I'm a little I have a little

627
00:36:30,276 --> 00:36:33,116
Speaker 1: more perspective on my ego, which is another word for

628
00:36:33,156 --> 00:36:36,956
Speaker 1: the self, and don't feel quite as identified with it

629
00:36:37,636 --> 00:36:40,676
Speaker 1: that I can like point at it and say, Okay,

630
00:36:40,716 --> 00:36:43,156
Speaker 1: that's one voice in my head, you know, but I

631
00:36:43,156 --> 00:36:46,636
Speaker 1: don't have to listen to it. And who is I

632
00:36:46,036 --> 00:36:50,516
Speaker 1: that in that sentence? I don't know. You know. I'm

633
00:36:50,516 --> 00:36:56,596
Speaker 1: a meditator also, and I really like entering that space.

634
00:36:57,036 --> 00:37:02,036
Speaker 1: And I think that the space of our conscious selves

635
00:37:02,116 --> 00:37:06,116
Speaker 1: are this this interiority is very precious and I've become

636
00:37:06,156 --> 00:37:10,116
Speaker 1: more appreciative of it and also worried about it because

637
00:37:10,156 --> 00:37:12,836
Speaker 1: of the fact that we're squandering it in various ways

638
00:37:12,876 --> 00:37:18,956
Speaker 1: and that we're just filling our minds with just you know, bullshit.

639
00:37:19,196 --> 00:37:21,476
Speaker 1: I mean, not to put too finn a term on it,

640
00:37:21,516 --> 00:37:25,036
Speaker 1: but you know, we have social media, you know, with

641
00:37:25,236 --> 00:37:29,596
Speaker 1: very sophisticated algorithms that give us these little dopamine hits.

642
00:37:29,916 --> 00:37:32,916
Speaker 1: And yes, you have to be conscious to scroll on

643
00:37:32,956 --> 00:37:38,316
Speaker 1: your phone, but minimally so, and now, you know, as

644
00:37:38,476 --> 00:37:42,236
Speaker 1: we form relationships with chatbots, you know, these are synthetic

645
00:37:42,316 --> 00:37:46,556
Speaker 1: relationships that offer none of the generative friction that comes

646
00:37:46,556 --> 00:37:50,436
Speaker 1: from real relationships. So I guess what I've come out

647
00:37:50,436 --> 00:37:52,716
Speaker 1: of it with is the sense that there's something very

648
00:37:52,756 --> 00:37:57,836
Speaker 1: precious here that's endangered and that we need to reclaim,

649
00:37:57,956 --> 00:37:59,956
Speaker 1: and we can reclaim. I mean, there are things you

650
00:37:59,956 --> 00:38:02,516
Speaker 1: can do. You can put down your phone and sit

651
00:38:02,636 --> 00:38:05,796
Speaker 1: with the boredom. Boredom is generative. Also if you just

652
00:38:05,876 --> 00:38:08,716
Speaker 1: sit there, you know, if you start watching people, you

653
00:38:08,756 --> 00:38:12,316
Speaker 1: start thinking about them, you overhear them, you mind wander.

654
00:38:12,476 --> 00:38:15,476
Speaker 1: You know, there's this. I learned a lot about what's

655
00:38:15,516 --> 00:38:19,756
Speaker 1: called spontaneous thought from a really interesting psychologist in the

656
00:38:19,836 --> 00:38:24,476
Speaker 1: thought section who and she studies mind wandering and daydreaming

657
00:38:24,596 --> 00:38:28,036
Speaker 1: and intuitions or you know, bolts from the blue, and

658
00:38:28,076 --> 00:38:32,036
Speaker 1: she says, we have less spontaneous thought in our lives

659
00:38:32,036 --> 00:38:34,876
Speaker 1: than we did ten or twenty years ago because we're

660
00:38:34,876 --> 00:38:37,596
Speaker 1: filling our heads with these distractions. And of course these

661
00:38:37,636 --> 00:38:41,516
Speaker 1: distractions have corporations behind them that want to monetize our attention,

662
00:38:41,956 --> 00:38:44,756
Speaker 1: which is to say, our consciousness. So I think we,

663
00:38:44,956 --> 00:38:46,636
Speaker 1: you know, we need to take it back.

664
00:38:47,316 --> 00:38:50,716
Speaker 3: It's beautiful questions.

665
00:38:50,876 --> 00:38:53,396
Speaker 1: Yeah, we have microphones. If anybody wants to ask a question,

666
00:38:54,676 --> 00:38:56,196
Speaker 1: you want to come out and ask it there so

667
00:38:56,276 --> 00:38:57,156
Speaker 1: everybody can hear you.

668
00:38:57,236 --> 00:39:00,516
Speaker 6: I'll beat you to it too slow. Michael, thank you

669
00:39:00,716 --> 00:39:04,756
Speaker 6: fantastic book, really and for inspiring one thing. I think

670
00:39:04,756 --> 00:39:08,036
Speaker 6: it was in the section about Alison Gopnik. We talked

671
00:39:08,036 --> 00:39:12,356
Speaker 6: about how the selfless forms socially, you know, by the

672
00:39:12,396 --> 00:39:16,196
Speaker 6: engagement of parents with children encourage them to kind of

673
00:39:16,196 --> 00:39:20,196
Speaker 6: develop a self. So I'm curious about the kind of this,

674
00:39:20,996 --> 00:39:25,196
Speaker 6: you know, the meta consciousness, I guess, the social construct

675
00:39:25,236 --> 00:39:30,356
Speaker 6: of consciousness, and how society is in large constructs consciousness,

676
00:39:30,356 --> 00:39:35,076
Speaker 6: and whether you can hypothesize a kind of societal consciousness

677
00:39:35,116 --> 00:39:37,196
Speaker 6: as well.

678
00:39:37,436 --> 00:39:42,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, there are how

679
00:39:42,316 --> 00:39:46,476
Speaker 1: the way our consciousness is shaped by our social life.

680
00:39:47,116 --> 00:39:49,796
Speaker 1: I think is probably I mean, I think it's probably

681
00:39:49,836 --> 00:39:53,076
Speaker 1: critical and would be very different, and it's probably different

682
00:39:53,116 --> 00:39:57,156
Speaker 1: in different societies. You know, I think consciousness is I mean,

683
00:39:57,196 --> 00:40:00,316
Speaker 1: it probably is a biological phenomenon, but like a lot

684
00:40:00,356 --> 00:40:04,996
Speaker 1: of biological phenomenon, it has a social or even historical component.

685
00:40:05,596 --> 00:40:07,916
Speaker 1: My guess is that people who lived you know, five

686
00:40:07,996 --> 00:40:12,276
Speaker 1: hundred years ago have a different consciousness than we do.

687
00:40:12,356 --> 00:40:17,156
Speaker 1: And my guess is we learn ways of being conscious.

688
00:40:17,236 --> 00:40:21,076
Speaker 1: I think great artists and possibly great philosophers may change

689
00:40:21,316 --> 00:40:25,756
Speaker 1: our sense of what consciousness is. So I think it probably.

690
00:40:25,796 --> 00:40:27,276
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how to prove this, but

691
00:40:27,356 --> 00:40:31,836
Speaker 1: I think it is subject to the usual historical forces,

692
00:40:32,556 --> 00:40:35,476
Speaker 1: and it would be great. I mean, we have some

693
00:40:35,516 --> 00:40:37,956
Speaker 1: sense of this from literature, right, I mean, the mind

694
00:40:38,076 --> 00:40:41,796
Speaker 1: that conceived of the Odyssey and the Iliad was a

695
00:40:41,836 --> 00:40:44,716
Speaker 1: different mind. So yeah, I would say it does have

696
00:40:44,756 --> 00:40:46,836
Speaker 1: a social component.

697
00:40:46,636 --> 00:40:49,276
Speaker 6: And the fact that we can reference that. I love

698
00:40:49,636 --> 00:40:51,876
Speaker 6: the quote some literature and how you brought us through

699
00:40:51,916 --> 00:40:52,636
Speaker 6: that as well, And.

700
00:40:52,716 --> 00:40:55,236
Speaker 1: Well, literature was very important to me. I mean, you know,

701
00:40:56,596 --> 00:40:59,236
Speaker 1: at a certain point I realized, you know, novelists know

702
00:40:59,276 --> 00:41:03,756
Speaker 1: an awful lot about consciousness, and poets too, and in

703
00:41:03,796 --> 00:41:06,796
Speaker 1: some ways they're ahead of the scientists, and they've been

704
00:41:06,836 --> 00:41:09,036
Speaker 1: working on the problem longer than the scientists have to.

705
00:41:09,796 --> 00:41:14,876
Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you, thanks for your question. Hello, Hello,

706
00:41:14,916 --> 00:41:15,516
Speaker 1: good evening.

707
00:41:16,876 --> 00:41:20,196
Speaker 4: The young lady mentioned free will, and I think it

708
00:41:20,316 --> 00:41:23,876
Speaker 4: was a Bob Hope who was asked, do you believe

709
00:41:23,916 --> 00:41:27,036
Speaker 4: in free will? And he shrugged his shoulders and.

710
00:41:27,076 --> 00:41:33,836
Speaker 1: Said, I have no choice. Thank you for that.

711
00:41:35,596 --> 00:41:38,436
Speaker 4: So I recall.

712
00:41:38,196 --> 00:41:40,156
Speaker 3: Reading, oh and thanks for calling me young.

713
00:41:44,356 --> 00:41:54,956
Speaker 4: Everything's relative. I recall reading a book where Blaize Pascal

714
00:41:56,596 --> 00:42:02,516
Speaker 4: was talking about behavior and if there's a tug of war,

715
00:42:03,476 --> 00:42:08,156
Speaker 4: a battle between the heart and the brain, it's no contest.

716
00:42:09,356 --> 00:42:14,356
Speaker 4: The heart is going to dominate. And I'm wondering, in

717
00:42:14,436 --> 00:42:19,356
Speaker 4: this book or in some of your previous books, do

718
00:42:19,396 --> 00:42:25,116
Speaker 4: you talk about how the thought affects our behaviors?

719
00:42:27,036 --> 00:42:31,396
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do, And you know, I think one of

720
00:42:31,436 --> 00:42:35,116
Speaker 1: the lessons of this work that I was describing about

721
00:42:35,196 --> 00:42:39,476
Speaker 1: feelings is about the importance of feelings to decision making.

722
00:42:39,556 --> 00:42:42,996
Speaker 1: That's really what Demasio's book was about. And he found

723
00:42:42,996 --> 00:42:47,036
Speaker 1: that people who felt their way through decisions made better

724
00:42:47,116 --> 00:42:51,076
Speaker 1: decisions than people who say since the ability to feel

725
00:42:51,156 --> 00:42:54,956
Speaker 1: was impaired, and that there's a process in which we

726
00:42:55,756 --> 00:42:59,956
Speaker 1: pass our body does kind of a gut check on

727
00:43:00,036 --> 00:43:03,196
Speaker 1: when we're making decisions, and that when we do that,

728
00:43:03,276 --> 00:43:06,676
Speaker 1: we make better decisions. And so that's really the argument

729
00:43:06,716 --> 00:43:11,516
Speaker 1: of Descartes error. It's a really interesting book. And you know,

730
00:43:11,756 --> 00:43:14,796
Speaker 1: the I mean, if you think of the emotion of disgust,

731
00:43:15,596 --> 00:43:17,756
Speaker 1: which is a really interesting emotion, because it's a really

732
00:43:17,756 --> 00:43:21,476
Speaker 1: embodied emotion. There was an experiment I allude to in

733
00:43:21,516 --> 00:43:24,156
Speaker 1: the book where they had a control group and one

734
00:43:24,196 --> 00:43:28,116
Speaker 1: group got ginger and ate a bunch of ginger, and

735
00:43:28,436 --> 00:43:33,676
Speaker 1: then they were presented with a morally repellent scenario about

736
00:43:33,756 --> 00:43:36,876
Speaker 1: incest or something like that, and the people who had

737
00:43:36,876 --> 00:43:44,116
Speaker 1: eaten ginger were less judgmental because their stomachs had settled. So,

738
00:43:46,196 --> 00:43:51,596
Speaker 1: you know, embodiment is more important than I think we've realized.

739
00:43:52,596 --> 00:43:55,356
Speaker 1: And I think it's kind of a very interesting trend

740
00:43:55,436 --> 00:43:58,556
Speaker 1: in neuroscience to pay more attention to the body than

741
00:43:58,596 --> 00:44:00,196
Speaker 1: we once did. We used, you know, the brain in

742
00:44:00,236 --> 00:44:03,356
Speaker 1: the vat was a kind of like meme, and that

743
00:44:03,556 --> 00:44:08,556
Speaker 1: really doesn't work. Thank you, I thank you very much.

744
00:44:09,356 --> 00:44:14,036
Speaker 5: I can think of three examples of where language is

745
00:44:14,156 --> 00:44:20,156
Speaker 5: not connected consciousness. I used to work with very developmentally

746
00:44:20,236 --> 00:44:25,236
Speaker 5: delayed children who had no language, and they definitely were

747
00:44:25,316 --> 00:44:30,076
Speaker 5: able to communicate in other sensory ways. The second one

748
00:44:30,116 --> 00:44:32,196
Speaker 5: was I used to work with Coco of the gorilla,

749
00:44:32,956 --> 00:44:37,916
Speaker 5: and how the gorilla had such a presence and a

750
00:44:37,996 --> 00:44:43,236
Speaker 5: connection and looking in the gorilla's eyes and talking with

751
00:44:43,276 --> 00:44:47,556
Speaker 5: the gorilla who had apparently some language that was a

752
00:44:47,556 --> 00:44:50,676
Speaker 5: good example. And the third one that I feel is

753
00:44:50,796 --> 00:44:54,276
Speaker 5: very important to recognize is that I know deaf people

754
00:44:54,636 --> 00:44:59,796
Speaker 5: who were born deaf, who were profoundly deaf, had no language,

755
00:45:00,316 --> 00:45:04,636
Speaker 5: who didn't acquire language until they were five, six, seven

756
00:45:04,716 --> 00:45:09,476
Speaker 5: years old. And how do you think without words? How

757
00:45:09,476 --> 00:45:13,596
Speaker 5: do you think? How do you get concepts? And what

758
00:45:13,716 --> 00:45:16,676
Speaker 5: is your world like? Looking at the world from that,

759
00:45:16,916 --> 00:45:19,596
Speaker 5: So I would say that shows that those.

760
00:45:19,476 --> 00:45:20,316
Speaker 1: Are great examples.

761
00:45:20,396 --> 00:45:24,716
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, you don't need to have a language in

762
00:45:24,836 --> 00:45:26,676
Speaker 5: order to have a thought.

763
00:45:26,996 --> 00:45:27,756
Speaker 3: That's how I feel.

764
00:45:28,116 --> 00:45:30,956
Speaker 1: And if you read fiction, they are novelists who clearly

765
00:45:31,116 --> 00:45:35,196
Speaker 1: improvesd believe that, whereas Joyce thought consciousness was made out

766
00:45:35,236 --> 00:45:38,916
Speaker 1: of words, And yeah, that's a great example. Another one

767
00:45:39,276 --> 00:45:43,116
Speaker 1: is there was an experiment that recently happened where they

768
00:45:43,156 --> 00:45:46,996
Speaker 1: found that chimps have imagination, and they were able to

769
00:45:47,076 --> 00:45:49,596
Speaker 1: sit down with a chimp and have you know the

770
00:45:49,716 --> 00:45:51,756
Speaker 1: kind of imaginary tea party you might have with a

771
00:45:51,796 --> 00:45:54,516
Speaker 1: four year old where you're pouring and there's no liquid

772
00:45:54,556 --> 00:45:56,116
Speaker 1: and you're sipping and there's no liqu.

773
00:45:55,996 --> 00:45:58,396
Speaker 5: Cloco used to do things like that too, And when

774
00:45:58,396 --> 00:46:01,836
Speaker 5: she had a kitten who died, she would express her

775
00:46:01,996 --> 00:46:05,316
Speaker 5: sorrow and how sad she was and talk about the

776
00:46:05,396 --> 00:46:08,916
Speaker 5: past and the future, and that was something they thought

777
00:46:08,956 --> 00:46:09,796
Speaker 5: of the humans.

778
00:46:10,036 --> 00:46:13,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, good do Well, we're losing our sense of exclusivity.

779
00:46:13,436 --> 00:46:15,356
Speaker 1: I think the only thing I'll be left is where

780
00:46:15,356 --> 00:46:21,396
Speaker 1: the species that worries about what consciousness is. Thank you

781
00:46:21,436 --> 00:46:22,636
Speaker 1: all for your wonderful question.

782
00:46:22,636 --> 00:46:24,716
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Thank you, and thank you Maya,

783
00:46:25,316 --> 00:46:29,956
Speaker 3: thank you, thank.

784
00:46:29,716 --> 00:47:03,956
Speaker 2: You, hey, thanks so much for listening. You can find

785
00:47:03,956 --> 00:47:06,796
Speaker 2: more information about a world appears at the link in

786
00:47:06,836 --> 00:47:10,316
Speaker 2: the show notes. Next week, were visiting my conversation with

787
00:47:10,356 --> 00:47:13,796
Speaker 2: Michael on the topic that started it all, psychedelics.

788
00:47:14,156 --> 00:47:16,516
Speaker 1: One of the things psychedelics does is it takes all

789
00:47:16,636 --> 00:47:19,956
Speaker 1: that ironic crust we cover the world with and it

790
00:47:20,276 --> 00:47:24,356
Speaker 1: scrapes it off really effectively, and suddenly things appear with

791
00:47:24,556 --> 00:47:27,996
Speaker 1: the profundity and beauty of first sight. I mean, awe

792
00:47:28,436 --> 00:47:31,876
Speaker 1: at the ordinary. You know, a piece of music, a flower,

793
00:47:32,116 --> 00:47:35,876
Speaker 1: and that's a wonderful aspect of psychedelic experience.

794
00:47:36,716 --> 00:47:39,436
Speaker 2: Oh and one more thing, Thank you so much to

795
00:47:39,516 --> 00:47:41,636
Speaker 2: each and every one of you who's read my book,

796
00:47:41,676 --> 00:47:44,476
Speaker 2: The Other Side of Change. I've loved hearing about how

797
00:47:44,516 --> 00:47:47,436
Speaker 2: the stories have affected you or made you think differently

798
00:47:47,516 --> 00:47:49,996
Speaker 2: about the changes in your own life. I'd be so

799
00:47:50,156 --> 00:47:52,676
Speaker 2: grateful if you could share your experience of the book

800
00:47:52,796 --> 00:47:56,476
Speaker 2: on Goodreads. It really helps read the word. We've shared

801
00:47:56,476 --> 00:47:59,196
Speaker 2: the link in the episode notes. Thanks so much and

802
00:47:59,196 --> 00:48:11,756
Speaker 2: I'll see you next week. A Slight Change of Plans

803
00:48:11,876 --> 00:48:15,396
Speaker 2: is created, written, and executive produced by me Maya Shunker.

804
00:48:16,036 --> 00:48:20,356
Speaker 2: The Slight Change family includes our showrunner Alexander Garatin, our

805
00:48:20,476 --> 00:48:25,236
Speaker 2: editor Daphne Chen, our lead producer Megan Lubin, our associate

806
00:48:25,276 --> 00:48:30,516
Speaker 2: producer Sonia Gerwitt, and our sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis

807
00:48:30,556 --> 00:48:33,956
Speaker 2: Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith helped

808
00:48:34,036 --> 00:48:34,916
Speaker 2: arrange the vocals.

809
00:48:35,756 --> 00:48:37,276
Speaker 3: A Slight Change of Plans is.

810
00:48:37,196 --> 00:48:40,996
Speaker 2: A production of Pushkin Industries, So big thanks to everyone there,

811
00:48:41,716 --> 00:49:03,076
Speaker 2: and of course, of very special thanks to Jimmy Lee

812
00:49:09,316 --> 00:49:09,356
Speaker 6: M