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Speaker 1: Yeah, that.

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Speaker 2: Chuck Norris was chasing the Tyrannosaurus Rex. The rex was

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Speaker 2: not chasing the jeep. Murray Murry, you there, you love sandwiches. Huh,

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Speaker 2: let's go to eighty. He was.

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Speaker 1: Wow that Prime Time. Maybe I had a crush on

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Speaker 1: Betty Rubbell.

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Speaker 2: I honestly, until after the segment ended and we went

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Speaker 2: to commercial break, had no idea that Jonathan Coachman was black.

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Speaker 1: He caught them the game last night, although they won

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Speaker 1: the game. You're listening just to Godsend Company.

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Speaker 2: Keith O'Brien is a New York Times best selling author.

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Speaker 2: He wrote Charlie Hustle. We had him on to discuss

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Speaker 2: that Fly Girls. He is one of the great authors

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Speaker 2: we have, one of the great sports authors and storytellers

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Speaker 2: that we have. And he has a new book out

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Speaker 2: right in time for March Madness, Heartland, A Forgotten Place,

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Speaker 2: An Impossible Dream, and the Miracle of Larry Bird. And

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Speaker 2: Keith O'Brien with us right now. Keith, why do you

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Speaker 2: decide to write a book about Larry Bird?

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Speaker 3: You know, I feel like we have been telling the

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Speaker 3: Larry Birds story the wrong way all these years. You know,

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Speaker 3: every time someone comes to this story they end up

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Speaker 3: doing the Bird Magic thing, you know, the sing song

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Speaker 3: narrative of these two icons, who, of course, as we

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Speaker 3: all know, will meet in that epic championship game in

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Speaker 3: March nineteen seventy nine. And that's a great story. I

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Speaker 3: understand why people do it that way, but it's a

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Speaker 3: little bit disingenuous. For one thing, these guys don't know

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Speaker 3: each other in nineteen seventy nine. They've met one time.

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Speaker 3: They're not friends, they're not rivals, they're not anything two.

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Speaker 3: You know, because of that, you know, magic has had

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Speaker 3: no influence on Bird's life to that point. You know

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Speaker 3: he has been shaped by these unsung heroes in the

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Speaker 3: shadows of his life at that time, who are main

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Speaker 3: characters in my book here. And then you know, lastly,

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Speaker 3: you know, when you do the Bird magic thing, what

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Speaker 3: ends up happening is you dilute and water down both

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Speaker 3: men's story. And you know, Bird's story in particular, I

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Speaker 3: believe is one of the great underdog stories of the

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Speaker 3: past fifty years. And for that reason, you know, I

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Speaker 3: wanted to sort of tilt the camera in a different

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Speaker 3: direction and tell this familiar story in a different way

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Speaker 3: with new and fresh reporting.

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Speaker 1: What makes him such a unique underdog.

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Speaker 2: Is it the upbringing where he was from, all the

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Speaker 2: obstacles that he was fighting against internally with himself? What

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Speaker 2: were some of the characteristics that made Larry Byrd really

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Speaker 2: an impossible underdog to turn out to be one of

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Speaker 2: the greatest players we've ever seen in played basketball?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: I mean, do you guys know the story? And so

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Speaker 3: do you know your listeners and viewers. Obviously Bird is

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Speaker 3: from french Lick, Indiana. That's a really small town, and

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Speaker 3: I urge everyone look look at it on the map.

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Speaker 3: There is no play, no way to get to french

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Speaker 3: Lick today in twenty two, twenty six. There's no straight

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Speaker 3: route into french Lick today. Fifty years ago it was.

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Speaker 3: It was really off the basketball map. The second thing is,

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Speaker 3: you know a lot of people will know the vague

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Speaker 3: outlines of Bird's story in that you know, he was

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Speaker 3: initially recruited to play for Bobby Knight in Indiana and

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Speaker 3: then leaves, and you know, you hear that, you think, well,

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Speaker 3: Bird must have been a huge deal, a huge star,

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Speaker 3: and that's just not true. You know, he barely makes

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Speaker 3: the Indiana High School All Stars team in nineteen seventy four.

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Speaker 3: When he does, he hardly plays. He is not considered

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Speaker 3: a first team All state player in Indiana in nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy four, there's allegedly fifteen players who are better than him.

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Speaker 3: And when he drops out of Indiana, as we know,

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Speaker 3: and returns to French Lick, he really does disappear. You know,

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Speaker 3: no one's right stories about him, No one is you know,

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Speaker 3: shining this big spotlight on him. He is full, he

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Speaker 3: is fully gone. And in in that winter I call

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Speaker 3: it the Winter of his discontent, he is, you know,

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Speaker 3: playing essentially men's league basketball, glorified pick up basketball, and

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Speaker 3: what was known as the Industrial League in Indiana. And

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Speaker 3: in that time they can't even spell his name right

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Speaker 3: in the newspapers. I mean, that's that's who he is.

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Speaker 3: And so to go from there to what we know

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Speaker 3: will happen is a stunning thing.

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Speaker 1: It really is. I have driven through French Lick, Indiana.

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Speaker 1: I have.

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Speaker 2: It took me a couple of minutes, now, Mikey, I

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Speaker 2: did it on my college lacrosse tour, and I am

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Speaker 2: telling you, first off, it is cold, it is snowy,

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Speaker 2: it is I didn't see the sun. There is a

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Speaker 2: basketball hoop in every single driveway that you drive past

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Speaker 2: in French Lick. But the idea of one of America's

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Speaker 2: great athletes and one of the best basketball players we've

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Speaker 2: ever seen.

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Speaker 1: Coming from that town is so improbable.

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Speaker 3: Keith, It absolutely is. And and you're right, I mean, basketball

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Speaker 3: is fully ingrained in the culture in French Lake and

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Speaker 3: every other small town in Indiana that hasn't changed. You know,

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Speaker 3: in the reporting of the book, I spent a lot

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Speaker 3: of time in Indiana, a lot of time in rural Indiana.

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Speaker 3: You know, I went to some of these high school

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Speaker 3: basketball games just at times, just for fun at night,

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Speaker 3: because there was nothing else to do. And it is

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Speaker 3: it is still, you know, part and parcel of the

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Speaker 3: culture there. And and Larry Bird was was born out

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Speaker 3: of that culture.

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Speaker 4: Keith. When when Larry Bird drops out of Indiana, how

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Speaker 4: close did we come to not even getting this story

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Speaker 4: of coaches finding him and then him finding a different program.

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Speaker 3: I think the chances were more likely than not that

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Speaker 3: Larry disappeared forever after he left Indiana. Wow, he returns

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Speaker 3: to French Lick, He hitchhikes home, and yes, briefly, briefly

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Speaker 3: goes to a vocational school and plays basketball there. Not

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Speaker 3: a community college, you know, not a juco, you know,

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Speaker 3: a factory, a vocational school. He drops out there. You know,

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Speaker 3: he's then, as I said, a moment ago, playing in

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Speaker 3: this men's league. And he's telling his mother anytime a

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Speaker 3: recruiter shows up to send them away, and she's doing that,

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Speaker 3: slamming the doors and people's faces literally. And what really

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Speaker 3: it takes to pull Larry Bird away from the brink

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Speaker 3: is a man named Bill Hodges. Bill Hodges is an

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Speaker 3: assistant coach at Indiana State in Terre Haute, Indiana. Indiana

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Speaker 3: State is basically teetering on the edge of banishment to

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Speaker 3: Division two. They can't draw any fans to their games.

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Speaker 3: There are larger crowds at high school games in nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventy four seventy five than there are at Indiana State games.

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Speaker 3: And Bill Hodges is sort of a journeyman, down on

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Speaker 3: his luck a bit, and you know, he decides to

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Speaker 3: take a big swing and drive down to French Lake

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Speaker 3: for the day and just try to find Larry Bird.

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Speaker 3: And you know, Bill's a lot like Larry. He's Indiana

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Speaker 3: and born, small town, rural community. He came from poverty,

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Speaker 3: the edge of poverty himself, and those two men connect

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Speaker 3: and that is really what pulls Bird back from the brink?

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Speaker 1: Was Bird insecure?

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Speaker 2: Did he not think he was talented enough to make

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Speaker 2: it as far as he made it?

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Speaker 3: Bird was absolutely not insecure. Wo You know, one thing

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Speaker 3: that is consistent over the years is Bird had full

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Speaker 3: confidence in his ability. He had it, you know, in

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy three and seventy four when he was in

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Speaker 3: high school. He had it when he wents to Indiana

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Speaker 3: and came home. You know, he knew he was great.

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Speaker 3: And while he wasn't a trash talker in those days,

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Speaker 3: he didn't mind stating his confidence out loud, at least

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Speaker 3: the close friends. But you know, this was a time

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Speaker 3: when a poor kid, black or white, you know, in

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Speaker 3: in sports, in high school, you know, didn't have an

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Speaker 3: entourage around him, you know, didn't have you know, handlers,

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Speaker 3: you know, who were making things work. And that was

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Speaker 3: especially true for Larry. And so when he returns home

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Speaker 3: to French Lick, I mean, you know he is he is,

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Speaker 3: you know, cast his lot, you know, and and and

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Speaker 3: that's how close it comes to him slipping away forever.

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Speaker 1: So if the Indiana State assist.

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Speaker 2: It never makes that drive, never looks around town for

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Speaker 2: Larry Bird because he didn't want to be bothered.

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Speaker 1: His mom is telling everyone to get the hell out

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Speaker 1: of their house.

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Speaker 2: He's done playing basketball, He's playing an industrial league. If

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Speaker 2: that guy never makes that drive, Larry Bird is still living.

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Speaker 1: He's living that life right now. Correct.

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Speaker 3: I think it's very likely that if Bill Hodges doesn't

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Speaker 3: make that drive down to French Lick and doesn't then

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Speaker 3: pursue Bird, because even after he finds him, Bird won't

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Speaker 3: listen right away, that Bird could have ended up just

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Speaker 3: like his father, you know, working at the Kimball piano

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Speaker 3: plant and French Lick or the cabinet factory over in Jasper.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, how do you eventually convince Bird to go back

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Speaker 2: to college and play basketball.

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Speaker 3: It's a stunning scene. It's part of the book. It's

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Speaker 3: one of the most cinematic scenes. Frankly. You know, Bill Hodges,

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Speaker 3: you know, goes to Georgia Bird's house that day. She

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Speaker 3: slams the door in his face. He could have turned

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Speaker 3: around and gone back to Terre Haute right then, but

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Speaker 3: you know, it's he's made a two and a half

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Speaker 3: hour drive. You know, he's committed, and as he says,

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Speaker 3: there can't be too many six foot nine blonde guys

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Speaker 3: in this town. And he just drives around and he

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Speaker 3: finds Bird outside a laundromat on the boulevard, and you know,

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Speaker 3: in Bird's grandmother's house. Later that afternoon, we'll have a

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Speaker 3: conversation with Burt and Bird again wants nothing to do

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Speaker 3: with college. He's actually trying to tell Hodges that he

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Speaker 3: should recruit other guys who were there in French Lick.

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Speaker 3: And Bert mentions one of these guys and you know, says,

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Speaker 3: you know, if he'd gone to college, everybody would know

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Speaker 3: his name. And Hodges, you know, season opening, he looks

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Speaker 3: at Burt and he says, you know, Larry, someday they're

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Speaker 3: going to say the same thing about you.

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Speaker 1: Wow, go ahead, Telly.

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Speaker 4: He this the Indiana State team. It feels like they

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Speaker 4: were built with that in mind, Like it's just going

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Speaker 4: to be a team full of underdogs. But I'm wondering,

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Speaker 4: in your opinion, can the seventy eight to seventy nine

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Speaker 4: season happen in today's college basketball or are the Dukes

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Speaker 4: and the Kentucky's just buying the best players from this team.

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Speaker 3: The chances of a nineteen seventy nine Indiana State miracle

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Speaker 3: team happening. A team that goes thirty three and ohero

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Speaker 3: out of nowhere in steamrolls all the way to the

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Speaker 3: final game and becomes this Cinderella story that captures the

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Speaker 3: imagination of America. I think it is increasingly less likely

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Speaker 3: every single day.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: Could it happen in March Madis this year? Sure, we

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Speaker 3: know it's a tournament known for its unpredictability and for

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Speaker 3: its upsets. But listen, in the in the age of name,

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Speaker 3: image and likeness money, Larry Bird would not have likely

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Speaker 3: stayed at Indiana State. You know, of course, he gets

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Speaker 3: recruited there by Bill Hodges and he comes, And that

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Speaker 3: can still happen today. A coach can still find a

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Speaker 3: diamond in the rough and convince him or her to

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Speaker 3: go play at a small program. But once that player

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Speaker 3: gets there and shows that he or she can ball out, right, yeah,

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Speaker 3: now they can sign for three million dollars or two

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Speaker 3: million dollars, And frankly, a player like Larry Bird today

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Speaker 3: would get Cooper Flag or Caitlin Clark money. We're talking

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Speaker 3: about four or five million dollars to play one single season.

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Speaker 3: And you know, just to put it in perspective for you,

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Speaker 3: Indiana State these days has about three hundred thousand dollars

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Speaker 3: in nil money. Three hundred thousand, it's a pittance. So

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Speaker 3: you know, you can find that player. But to keep

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Speaker 3: that player and then to go on this kind of run,

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Speaker 3: I think, sadly is increasingly less likely.

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Speaker 2: Can you speak to just how bad that team was,

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Speaker 2: Like the fact that they convinced Larry Bird to come back,

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Speaker 2: come back, come black, come back and play college bad

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Speaker 2: I just made a tailored mistake come back and play

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Speaker 2: college basketball at a school like Indiana State with a

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Speaker 2: team that was so terrible when he got there. Can

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Speaker 2: you tell the audience just how bad that university was

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Speaker 2: and how bad that team was.

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Speaker 3: So Indiana State was not in a conference at the time,

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Speaker 3: they were an independence. They had been entrenched in mediocrity

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Speaker 3: for years. Couldn't draw to three thousand fans to their games,

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Speaker 3: you know, and as I said, they were teetering on

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Speaker 3: the brink of being banished the Division two. You know,

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Speaker 3: but in some ways, you know, Bird connects with Indiana

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Speaker 3: State for the same reason he connects with Bill Hodges.

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Speaker 3: You know, Indiana State was a commuter school. It was

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Speaker 3: a school where a lot of kids win who are

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Speaker 3: going to become the first in their family to ever

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Speaker 3: graduate from college. It was predominantly, you know, working to

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Speaker 3: middle class school of kids, and that that was who

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Speaker 3: Larry Bird was.

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Speaker 1: So it was a better fit for Larry. That's interesting, Huh.

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Speaker 2: It was just a better fit that school for Larry

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Speaker 2: for his personality.

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Speaker 1: Huh.

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Speaker 3: It was all a better fit all the way around.

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Speaker 3: And and really, you know, that's why he that's why

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Speaker 3: he stays, that's why he connects, and that's why you know,

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Speaker 3: that's why we know his name today, Frankly, right.

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Speaker 1: But I'm just wondering.

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Speaker 2: So he's so he's uber confident, he's playing at Indiana,

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Speaker 2: and there had to be something about either Bob Knight

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Speaker 2: or that program that just didn't sit well with him,

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Speaker 2: because the guy loved basketball.

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Speaker 1: He was a junkie Keith.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, one thing that you know Bird is but he

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Speaker 3: would probably you know, be reluvedant to admit, at least

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Speaker 3: at that time, he was sensitive. You know, he was

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Speaker 3: sensitive and you know, little thing to rub him the

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Speaker 3: wrong way and stick with him and certainly you know

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Speaker 3: when he arrives in Bloomington in August nineteen seventy four.

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Speaker 3: You know, that's a really good team right there that

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Speaker 3: he's joining. That's a team that in just one year

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Speaker 3: is going to go undefeated without him after he's left.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's five future NBA lottery picks right there

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Speaker 3: in Bloomington. And so you know, they don't care about

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Speaker 3: this guy from French Lick, this Frankly, this white guy

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Speaker 3: from French Lick. You know, how good could he really be?

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Speaker 3: And you know there's you know, some mild hazing that

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Speaker 3: goes on. They won't pass the ball to Bird and

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Speaker 3: pick up scrimmages, they won't pick him to play on

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Speaker 3: their teams, and all of this, you know, sort of

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Speaker 3: rubs Bird the wrong way. And then there's just the

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Speaker 3: reality that Bird was not well off. He arrives on

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Speaker 3: campus with seventy five dollars in his pocket and one

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Speaker 3: bag of clothes. You know, he feels out of place

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Speaker 3: in Bloomington, and for all those reasons, you know, he ultimately,

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Speaker 3: you know, decides to pack up and go home.

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Speaker 2: Knowing what we know now about Larry, his career, his personality,

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Speaker 2: it is interesting, Hey, Indiana, you don't want me I

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Speaker 2: don't feel needed here, I don't feel wanted here. I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna leave and then later on I'm gonna go to

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Speaker 2: Indiana State, the worst college basketball program, one of them

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Speaker 2: in the country, and make you regret the day that

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Speaker 2: you made me leave Indiana not that they made him,

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Speaker 2: but you understand what I'm saying. Yes, it's such a

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Speaker 2: perfect bird story.

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Speaker 3: So perfect, right, you know, just like not only not

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Speaker 3: only am I gonna be great, but I'm gonna rub

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Speaker 3: it in your in your face.

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Speaker 1: While at Indiana State. Yes, it's so good.

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Speaker 2: How much just transitioning here to a to a difficult

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Speaker 2: topic here, but the suicide of his father, how much

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Speaker 2: does that impact Larry as a child, and how much

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Speaker 2: did that impact Larry in terms of moving forward with

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Speaker 2: his basketball career.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I think we need to use a

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Speaker 3: certain word here when we talk about this. It's a

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Speaker 3: word that they wouldn't have used and didn't use in

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy five, but that we would use today. I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is a trauma. It's a trauma for a family,

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Speaker 3: it's a trauma for kids, it's a trauma for a teenager,

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Speaker 3: which is what Larry Birden was when this happens. He's

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Speaker 3: eighteen years old, and we didn't talk about it like

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Speaker 3: that at that time, but that's what it was. And

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Speaker 3: it's a trauma that unfolds in a small town. And

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Speaker 3: for those of you out there who come from small towns,

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Speaker 3: you know, you know that everybody knows everybody's business, or

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Speaker 3: at least a lot more than they do in a

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Speaker 3: big town. And so when this happen weapons in French

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Speaker 3: Lick in February nineteen seventy five, everybody's talking about it, right.

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Speaker 3: It's it's whispers in the hallway at the school, it's

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00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,080
Speaker 3: whispers in the aisles in the Springs Valley Gymnasium, it's

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Speaker 3: whispers in the bars where Larry Bird's dad used to

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Speaker 3: hang out. And you know, it is in that window

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Speaker 3: of time just you know, several weeks later that Bill

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Speaker 3: Hodges shows up, you know, and tracks Bird down. And

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Speaker 3: Hodges told me, you know that initially he didn't know

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Speaker 3: about Larry's dad suicide. He didn't know about it, right,

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Speaker 3: It wasn't in the papers, not at least up in

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Speaker 3: Tara Hate. It wasn't a big deal outside of French Lick.

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Speaker 3: But you know, once he knew about that one thing

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Speaker 3: that Hodges does that's different than Night is he builds

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Speaker 3: this support system around him, you know, Night, you know,

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00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,760
Speaker 3: you know, recruits Birds signs in, but once he gets there,

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00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 3: he just you know, expects him to swim in the

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Speaker 3: ocean with the rest of the guys, with Quinn Buckner

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Speaker 3: and Scott May and the rest.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: When when Bird agrees to come to in the United State,

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Speaker 3: Hodges really takes care of him. You know, he puts

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Speaker 3: him up in his basement for a while, charging him

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Speaker 3: five dollars rents, you know, to to cover their n

333
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,080
Speaker 3: C double a basis. You know, he helps Bird get

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Speaker 3: a job. You know, really is someone who is looking

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Speaker 3: out for him in a way that that Bobby Knight frankly.

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Speaker 1: Didn't do became a father figure, right.

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00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,800
Speaker 3: He did, he did, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: That is that is that is super interesting.

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Speaker 2: How influential was Larry's dad on his on his introduction

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Speaker 2: to basketball and his basketball career.

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Speaker 1: Did he have any influence?

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00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,800
Speaker 3: You know, Larry's mother was was was tall and and

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Speaker 3: probably Larry got his height from from her and her

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00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,600
Speaker 3: side of the family, right, But the Bird side was

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Speaker 3: very athletic. Uh, there's a story that I was told, uh,

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Speaker 3: there's a there's an old domed hotel in West Baden

347
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,640
Speaker 3: Springs and West Baden is just north of French Lick.

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Speaker 3: They're basically two rural towns that are connected by one road.

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Speaker 3: And this old domed hotel in the seventies was falling apart,

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00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,560
Speaker 3: you know, broken down. These days it's built up and

351
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,919
Speaker 3: beautiful again. And you know, in that time, I was

352
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,560
Speaker 3: told that Bird's grandfather on his father's side, was able

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Speaker 3: to take a baseball and throw it over this domed hotel,

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Speaker 3: which is I mean, this thing is enormous. It's like

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Speaker 3: a miniature astrodome, that's how big this thing is. And

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Speaker 3: I don't know if that story is true, but I

357
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 3: think the nut of it is there was athleticism on

358
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Speaker 3: the Birds side of the family. Joey Bird, Larry's father,

359
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 3: you know, it was you know, an involved dad. You know,

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00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,879
Speaker 3: he would take the boys fishing, he would play football

361
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 3: with him, and he you know, he would, by Larry's

362
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,359
Speaker 3: own recollection, you know, push the boys, you know, and

363
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Speaker 3: tell them, don't let your brother beat you, you know.

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Speaker 3: And and so there was a piece of that, you know,

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Speaker 3: of his father within Larry absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Because I was wondering if Larry was going back at

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00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,160
Speaker 2: that time to Indiana State to play for that program

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Speaker 2: because he wanted to fulfill something for his dad.

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Speaker 3: You know, you know, I don't know if that's true,

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00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,440
Speaker 3: but you know, when Larry showed back up in town

371
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,800
Speaker 3: hitchhiking home in the fall of seventy four, lots of

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Speaker 3: people are disappointed. His mother is disappointed. People think Larry

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Speaker 3: Bird is squandering his one chance in life. And again,

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Speaker 3: by Larry's own recollection, his father didn't act like that.

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Speaker 3: His father told him, according to Larry, don't look back,

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Speaker 3: and Larry didn't.

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Speaker 2: Interesting Heartland a forgotten place, an impossible dream, and the

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00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,880
Speaker 2: miracle of Larry Bird. Keith O'Brien, the author is with us.

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Speaker 4: Keith, are you surprised Indiana State was never able to

409
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 4: parlay having Larry Bird into more success.

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00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:25,480
Speaker 1: That's a good question.

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00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I am, And I do you know, delve into

412
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 3: that a little bit in the epilogue of the book.

413
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 3: You know, you would think this is the lightning bolt

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00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,479
Speaker 3: moment that would set a team, you know, on the

415
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 3: path to success. We've seen it happen with other programs before,

416
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 3: with Duke, with Gonzaga. You know, those teams didn't used

417
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 3: to be big basketball powerhouses. It could have happened in

418
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,719
Speaker 3: Indiana State. There were lots of factors that play in

419
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:57,159
Speaker 3: seventy eight seventy nine that hurt their their chances, and

420
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 3: they're all part of the narrative in the book. You know,

421
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,679
Speaker 3: Bill high By seventy eight to seventy nine becomes the

422
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 3: head coach. You know, he's no longer the lead recruiter

423
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 3: for Indiana State. He's now the head coach and the

424
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 3: lead recruiter because just four days before the practices began

425
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 3: that fall, the head coach of Indiana State falls ill,

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00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 3: nearly dies and can no longer coach anymore. And so

427
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 3: Bill Hodges is thrown into this and he's has no

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Speaker 3: time to hire a staff, and so during that winter

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Speaker 3: where they're having this miracle season, Hodges is trying to

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Speaker 3: do two jobs. He's trying to be the head coach

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00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,440
Speaker 3: and trying to recruits. Meanwhile, he's not even hired and

432
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 3: given the full time head coaching position until March. Madness

433
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,640
Speaker 3: is almost upon them that year, and so nobody even

434
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 3: knows if Hodges is going to be there. The whole

435
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 3: thing is in disarray. And you know, I think that

436
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 3: that had something to do with them not capitalizing on

437
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 3: the success of Bird and then frankly, you know, they

438
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 3: swung and missed in the following seasons. You know, sign

439
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,160
Speaker 3: guys who were supposed to be great who weren't. Sign

440
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:10,280
Speaker 3: guys who were great who then fell ill themselves. I mean,

441
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:11,959
Speaker 3: it's just sort of a tragic story.

442
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: It sounds like the Jets.

443
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 3: Fortuitous shout at the I'm not writing a book about

444
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 3: the Jets to got something.

445
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: Why would you? I mean, who would do that? No

446
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 1: one would buy it.

447
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 2: I do like this angle, though, because you're right, everyone

448
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 2: tells the story of Larry and Magic together. You're telling

449
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 2: the story of what led up to that game for

450
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 2: you know the story of Larry getting to Indiana, getting

451
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 2: to Indiana State, and that's a story that hasn't been told,

452
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,959
Speaker 2: and so I am fascinated because Larry Bird is one

453
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 2: of my favorite athletes. Keith, you went into this book

454
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,439
Speaker 2: thinking one thing. What surprised you the most about what

455
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 2: you learn about Larry Bird? Because everyone goes into a

456
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,439
Speaker 2: book thinking one thing and comes out of it, I

457
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 2: think thinking completely different things about the subject.

458
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 3: You know, the thing that I found most compelling and

459
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 3: that I learned early on and it just totally sucked

460
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 3: me in, is that this one moment in time in

461
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy nine really does still endure today. It's like

462
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 3: a moment that echoes and reverberates through time before and after,

463
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 3: not just for Larry Bird, but for all the people

464
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,320
Speaker 3: who are around him, all the people on that team.

465
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,479
Speaker 3: You know, they're forever shaped by this. And you know,

466
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 3: without spoiling anything, you know, I think most sports fans,

467
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 3: most listeners here know how this is going to end

468
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 3: in March seventy nine, in that game with Magic and Bird.

469
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 3: And because of that, you know, you think, well, maybe

470
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: I shouldn't write it the way I've written it. But

471
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 3: when Bird and the Indiana State team flies home from

472
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 3: the Final four, flies from Salt Lake City to Terre Haute,

473
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 3: they don't know what they're walking into and what they

474
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 3: see and the reception they receive when they come off

475
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 3: that plane in Terre hate Is is frankly stunning. And

476
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 3: the moment I learned about it early in my reporting,

477
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: I knew I had to write this book Heartland.

478
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,600
Speaker 2: They've forgotten placed an impossible dream in the miracle of

479
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,640
Speaker 2: Larry Bird. Keith, before we let you go. It's out

480
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 2: of March third people, please buy it. This is a

481
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 2: great author. I am fascinated by this subject and I

482
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 2: can't wait to read it. Keith's going to send me

483
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 2: a signed copy like you did with Pete Rose. He's

484
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 2: got the greatest signature ever. But Keith, I am wondering here,

485
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 2: you're Mount Rushmore of sports books not written by Keith O'Brien.

486
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: Wow.

487
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, such a hard answer, a hard question.

488
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, some of.

489
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 3: Them are right there on the wall behind me.

490
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: Yes, one of them's on the wall behind me, right,

491
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: I mean, if one of.

492
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 3: Them's on the wall behind you, obviously, I don't need

493
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 3: to mention that one Stu thoughts, I don't need to

494
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:52,120
Speaker 3: mention that one.

495
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,479
Speaker 2: It's called Segota's Prison of a Record book. But go

496
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 2: ahead with your own Mount Rushmore.

497
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 3: I don't want to, of course, of course, my own

498
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 3: Mount Rushmore. Jonathan igs Ali on the wall behind me,

499
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 3: you know, David Halbertstams October nineteen sixty four on the

500
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 3: wall behind me. I love Joe Posnanski's you know, Baseball

501
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 3: one hundred and gosh, man, you got me on the

502
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 3: spot here. I want to cover all my bases. You know,

503
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 3: not necessarily a sports book, but one of our great

504
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:37,479
Speaker 3: sports writers, right Thompson. If you haven't read The Barn

505
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 3: by Right Thompson, which is not a sports book, so

506
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 3: I'm breaking the rule here a little bit.

507
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: Us.

508
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,160
Speaker 3: I urge everyone to read The barn By right Thompson.

509
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 2: All right, have you heard from Dan Shaughnessy, And if so,

510
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 2: is he pissed that you took the bird story?

511
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 3: I mean, Dan Shaughnessy was a sorcer for me early on.

512
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 3: He and I worked together at the Boston Globe many

513
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 3: years ago. He is one of my h you know,

514
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 3: journalistic heroes. Yes, he was very helpful to me. Dan

515
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 3: Shaughnessy did blurb the book. And you know, when you

516
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 3: send the book out for blurbs a little bit behind

517
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 3: the scenes here. You know, you send it in advance.

518
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 3: It's many months before the book comes out. You don't

519
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 3: know what people are going to think. No one's read it.

520
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 3: And when you know, about ten days after I said

521
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 3: the book, Dan Shaughnessy called me. I saw his number

522
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 3: pop up my phone and I sort of freaked out

523
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,640
Speaker 3: because Dan Shaughnessy never calls me. And I thought, oh, man,

524
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 3: I really screwed something up here. And you know, I

525
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 3: picked up the phone and Shaughnessy goes, hey, man, I

526
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 3: just finished the book, and I just got to know, like,

527
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 3: how did you do this? How did you get this?

528
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 3: And I was like, oh man, this is amazing. And

529
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 3: that's what one of the most fulfilling things has ever

530
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 3: happened to me, and certainly has happened in the run

531
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 3: up to this book.

532
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a passive aggressive way of him telling you

533
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: he's pissed off, he didn't do it. Just so you're

534
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: I've been giving shown to all hard time for Milk

535
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: of the eighties Celtics for the last thirty five years.

536
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: There you go. Well.

537
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 3: Hey, for those who are in Boston, Shaughnessy and I

538
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 3: are going to be together for a book event on

539
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 3: March twelfth of the Brooks booksmithe Shaughnessey and me together.

540
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 3: I'm just you know, I am not worthy. I feel

541
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 3: like Wayne's world. But I can't wait. I can't wait.

542
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: You know you're worthy. That is awesome. Congratulations, see you.

543
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: Please go purchase the book again Heartland. I've forgot in

544
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: place an impossible dream in the Miracle of Larry Bird.

545
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: Fascinating stuff. Keith O'Brian, the author with us, good luck

546
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 2: with the book. I don't listen. You don't need any luck.

547
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: You're a New York Times bestselling author over and over

548
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 2: and over again, and your friends with Shawnessey.

549
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 3: You'll be fine, Keith, I hope, so, guys, I hope so.

550
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me. It was the blast

551
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 3: to be back with you.

552
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing the story with us. I look

553
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: forward to reading Steve