1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: I used to have this really cool CD collection. Some 2 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: of it was the stuff everyone had, like No Doubts, 3 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: Tragic Kingdom, I'm a Wu Tang Forever, what y'all y'all 4 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: gonna see Sam, I'm the whole Sirens Sounded Tie. But 5 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: I also had a lot of mixtapes. I had this 6 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 1: Paul Wall mixtape that was a preview for his debut 7 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: album Wow and I'm the People's Champ. My chain light 8 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: up like a man because now I'm back with the camp. 9 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: And it had snippets of the album, but it also 10 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: just had him talking in the interludes, and it was 11 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:49,919 Speaker 1: something that was so cool about it, like you were 12 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: really behind the scenes of how he was making these songs. 13 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: And I was thinking about this CD the other day 14 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: and I looked it up online, but it's nowhere to 15 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: be found. Now there are record that it existed, so 16 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: I'm not crazy. It's called The People's Champ Mixtape Sampler, 17 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: but I can't find the music itself anywhere. It's not 18 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: on Spotify, it's not on YouTube or Amazon or even eBay. 19 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 2: No. 20 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: Granted, this is my fault. I'm the one who got 21 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: rid of my CD collection. I had just gotten so 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: used to everything being available online that I guess I 23 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 1: figured that I'd be able to find anything on some 24 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: cloud based service somewhere. 25 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 2: What if you could make your own cloud instead of 26 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: connecting to somebody's computer. There's the old Linux at age, 27 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 2: there is no cloud, It's just someone else's computer, right, 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: And I was like, but what if you had your 29 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: own computer, like a small computer that was running in 30 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 2: your house, and it had all your stuff on it 31 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: and you could just access it. 32 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: Janice Rose is a journalist and an artist, and what 33 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: she's talking about here is what some people call data hoarding, 34 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: or she calls digital pack rating. Instead are relying on 35 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: Netflix or Spotify or other streaming services. The digital pack rat, 36 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: like Janis, stores the library of their favorite movies, TV shows, 37 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: and music under their own hard drives. 38 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 2: You know something I've been doing for years and years, 39 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 2: making personal copies, backing it up on a hard drive, 40 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 2: to take more direct control of my sort of digital 41 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: collection and move it away from these platforms that try 42 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 2: to control access to everything and give you content licenses. 43 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: Some of us might already do this casually with specific 44 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: pieces of media that we love. I mean, I have 45 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: a lot of my old Nintendo games, including multiple copies 46 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 1: of Super Mario Brothers. But the digital pack rats take 47 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: it to another level. There is a subculture of people 48 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: who don't subscribe to a single streaming service, and for 49 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: some people, it's not about the money, it's about the principle. 50 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: And it goes into the like notion of digital ownership 51 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 2: and this notion of non ownership that all of these 52 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 2: companies have when it comes to digital rights. 53 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: So philosophically, I kind of get what Janis is saying. 54 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: If you just surrender your love of film to Netflix, 55 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: they can raise the prices or even delete films or 56 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: TV shows off of their service and you can't do 57 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: anything about it. So holding all of your media on 58 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: your own computer it makes sense. But practically speaking, here 59 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: is it worth the trouble? And if you wanted to 60 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: do this yourself, how would you go about it? From 61 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts, this is killed switch. I'm Dectah Thomas. 62 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 2: I'm all right. 63 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: So you wrote this article on four or four called 64 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: the Digital pack rat Manifesto. What inspired you to write that? 65 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: So the immediate impetus was Amazon implementing this new feature 66 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 2: where they basically made it harder for you to move 67 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 2: your Kindle ebook files around, which is something that we 68 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 2: always knew was going to happen more and more. It's 69 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 2: just one of those things that tech companies have been 70 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 2: going farther and farther down this road where they essentially 71 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: assert that the digital files that you buy, whether it's 72 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 2: an application or music books, basically their assertion this entire 73 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: time has been that you don't actually own that, you're 74 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: just buying a license to it. 75 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: Okay, just to back up a little bit, you used 76 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: to be able to download your Kindle books to your 77 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: computer just in case. This was actually a really useful 78 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 1: feature for say, people who traveled a lot, or it 79 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: didn't always have a good Internet connection. And look, some 80 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: people probably did use it to pirate books. I guess 81 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: that I did. I'm a professor, and when I teach 82 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: classes sometimes I'll need my students to read a chapter 83 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: from a book. But I don't feel right forcing a 84 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: bunch of students to buy one hundred and thirty dollars 85 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: academic text when I need them to read a chapter 86 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: that's fifteen pages. So I would buy the kindle book 87 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: on Amazon, I would download it, convert it, and I 88 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: would let the students have a PDF of those fifteen pages, 89 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 1: kind of like when teachers might make photocopies for you. 90 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: But then in February, Amazon removed that feature to be 91 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: able to download your books to your computer. So when 92 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: Janis says you don't own the books, you just buy 93 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 1: a license to access the book, that's what she means with. 94 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 2: DRM, with these companies' ability to control how many devices 95 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: you can put these files on, what you can do 96 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 2: with the files, and ultimately the fact that like these 97 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 2: platforms where you buy ebooks are entirely controlled by companies 98 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: like Amazon, and at any time they can just decide 99 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 2: they're not going to have that book available anymore, and 100 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: then it's just gone, and it doesn't matter if you 101 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 2: paid for it, it's just not there. We see this 102 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,159 Speaker 2: with Netflix all the time. There was this collection on 103 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: Netflix called Palestine Stories that was a series of both 104 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 2: fiction and nonfiction films made by Palestinian filmmakers, and it 105 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: was one of their featured collections. And Netflix is a 106 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: platform where they're always taking things off the platform and 107 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: then adding new things to the platform. But the timing 108 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: was especially notable, and so the fact that they removed 109 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 2: this seemingly in response to pressure. That was significant, and 110 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: it was just a really good example of if we 111 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: entrust all of these digital pieces of art, you know, 112 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 2: this is art we're talking about. People like to use 113 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: the term content nowadays, which makes me gag honestly, and 114 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 2: probably makes other people gag because that's how they see it, right. 115 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: They see it as just content. It's just a thing 116 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: that can be monetized. But what we're actually talking about 117 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 2: is human effort that has gone through to produce art. 118 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 2: And we're noticing through incidents like that that all of 119 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 2: this art is completely at the whim of these platform 120 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 2: owners and they can just decide to remove it for 121 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 2: any reason or no reason. 122 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: So how did we get here? It might be hard 123 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: to remember, but there was this moment of digital ownership 124 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: that came before streaming, before companies like Spotify and Netflix 125 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: controlled what we had access to, back when it felt 126 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: like you could find and own anything you wanted. I'm 127 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: talking about the era of Napster. 128 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: A huge moment for me was obviously Napster. That was 129 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: like one of these moments where it was shown how 130 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 2: arbitrary it is. Once somebody has a file, we can 131 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: just make art and just distribute it. And you know, 132 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: at the time it felt very kind of utopian, and 133 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 2: for people who grew up with computers like me, it 134 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 2: felt like, yeah, of course you can copy a file. 135 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: Of course you can send that file to other people. 136 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: Napster. For anyone too young to remember or who just 137 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: never touched it was like Spotify, but with the added 138 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: thrill of realizing you might get sued by the RIAA. 139 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: In the early two thousands, it was huge, and there 140 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: were a lot of other similar platforms like LimeWire, Kaza, Morpheus, 141 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: and then of course that was bit Torrent. You would 142 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: download all your favorite music and you would put it 143 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: on your MP three player, you know, your iPod or 144 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: your zoom for the weird people who had those, And 145 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: at the time it kind of felt like magic. 146 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 2: I remember the first MP three player I ever bought. 147 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 3: What was it? 148 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: I think it was like a Rio player if like 149 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: the Rio. Yeah, it could store like thirty five songs 150 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 2: or something like that. 151 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: You had that I forget. 152 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 2: It was an absurdly or maybe it was like one 153 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 2: hundred songs, which was with mind blowing. I like at 154 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: the time, I was like whoa, Like, I can't even 155 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: think of a hundred songs. 156 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, which ones will I put in here exactly? 157 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: And then the sort of backlash against that from record 158 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 2: labels and copyright owners, and you know, eventually the response 159 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: was streaming. And when streaming started to happen, I think 160 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 2: a lot of people, including me, started to have like, oh, okay, 161 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,640 Speaker 2: this is like kind of cool, Like I actually like 162 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: this because it means that I don't have to keep 163 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 2: all these files, manage all these files, do all this 164 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 2: work by myself, but I have access to pretty much 165 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 2: any movie I would want to watch, because that's kind 166 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 2: of how Netflix was when it started. The Netflix streaming 167 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 2: was pretty robust, and then it was only through time 168 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: that they started to remove stuff. And I think that 169 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 2: a lot of people who were in that era of 170 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: keeping empty three libraries were won over at that time. 171 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 2: But then what we realized eventually with like Spotify is 172 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 2: that they were essentially taking the model of piracy that 173 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: was invented by Napster and bit torrent and taking that 174 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 2: model and then just placing themselves at the center so 175 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: that they profited from it and that the artists got nothing. 176 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: And that was when we began to see all these 177 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 2: problems with the streaming platforms like Spotify, and the way 178 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 2: that artists are essentially being exploited and not paid royalties 179 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 2: and getting fractions of a penny for a stream. 180 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: One of the things about piracy that people don't quite 181 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: appreciate is that it was actually just the most convenient 182 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: way to get this. There were records, and you know, 183 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: me being into music, there were CDs, there were songs. 184 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: You couldn't get those at your local CD store, and 185 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: you could call around to places and they just straight 186 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: up didn't have it, and you could be exposed to 187 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: music that you couldn't pay anybody. If you wanted to 188 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 1: give the artist money, you actually had no way to 189 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 1: because of just different ways that things are distributed in 190 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: different countries. You just straight up didn't have access to it. 191 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: And so if you wanted to listen to something, you 192 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: heard somebody talking about something and oh, this sounds cool, 193 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: the only option you had, the most reasonable option you had, 194 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: was the bootleg it. The thing that streaming did, as 195 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: you mentioned, was it streaming was actually easier than piracy. 196 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: You didn't have to worry about getting a virus on 197 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: your computer, which I did a lot of. Oh my gosh, 198 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: I did so much of that, and the trade off 199 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: really truly was great. I can give Netflix, you know, 200 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: back the day ten dollars and I don't have to 201 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: worry about spending three hours trying to find a low 202 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: quality version of a movie that might give me a virus. 203 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: So streaming was more convenient than piracy. But maybe we're 204 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: not there anymore. 205 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, people when they started cord cutting as 206 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: they call it, where less people were subscribing to cable 207 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 2: because a lot of people were complaining, of course, that 208 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 2: it's bundled and it's all of this stuff that you 209 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: don't want, and it's not the stuff that you do want. 210 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: And so that was the big draw for streaming is 211 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 2: that it had what you want and it was more 212 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 2: convenient than doing this whole rigamarole every time to get something. 213 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 2: And then at a certain points, because the streaming services 214 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 2: have multiplied and there's so many of them now and 215 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 2: they've increased in price over and over and over again, 216 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 2: they keep increasing in price, and all this content is 217 00:12:53,840 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: now split among seventeen twenty five different streaming services, and 218 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: now again they're offering bundles. We're back where we started, 219 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: except now it's even more expensive. It's like orders of 220 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 2: magnitude more expensive, and we're kind of stuck now where 221 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 2: people like don't want this. People don't want to keep 222 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 2: paying more and more for a bunch of stuff they 223 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 2: don't want. But what's the alternative is the question I 224 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 2: think some people are asking. 225 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: So what is the alternative? Well, again, for jenis it's 226 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 1: digital pack writing. We'll get into what that means after 227 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: the break. So I think when a lot of people 228 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,959 Speaker 1: hear us talking about storing your own data, storing music, 229 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 1: or storing movies, a lot of people immediately think, oh, 230 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: you're talking about piracy. You're stealing stuff from the artists. 231 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: How do you feel about that, because necessarily we do 232 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: at some point start talking about piracy that Okay, well, 233 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: this is taking money out of the artist's pocket. 234 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean, and as somebody who's an artist 235 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 2: who makes music and other things, I look at what 236 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: Spotify is currently and how they're a middleman. They are 237 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 2: extracting virtually all profits from music. At this point, they've 238 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 2: inserted themselves as a middleman so effectively that they're essentially 239 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: taking it from both ends. They're getting the subscription from 240 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: the users who are paying to use the service, and 241 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 2: then they're also extracting value from the artists themselves because 242 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 2: they don't see the art as art. They see it 243 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: as content and they need more and more and more 244 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 2: of it. And from that perspective, if that's the norm, 245 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 2: I would rather have someone steel the stuff that I made, 246 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 2: or pirate the stuff that I made, then access it 247 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: on Spotify, where I'm getting a fraction of a penny 248 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 2: for every stream, and they changed it recently where I 249 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 2: think it's like something like sixty plus percent of all 250 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 2: artists on Spotify are completely demonetized. Everything under a thousand streams, 251 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 2: it's completely demonetized. 252 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got an album on all the platforms. No, 253 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: granted I'm not a big time artists. I think I 254 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 1: have made sixty seven cents last time I looked, after 255 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: a year on there. Yeah, and you know, a couple 256 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: people were kind enough to buy myself on band Camp, 257 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: and you know, you could say whatever you want about 258 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: band Camp, but that was ten bucks, which I didn't 259 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: expect to make. And so yeah, I'm honestly at that 260 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: point bootleg the album whatever, I don't care, download and 261 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: do whatever you want with it. 262 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: I feel you, at least with band Camp, you can 263 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: make your music free or you can charge for it, 264 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 2: and either way you can keep track of people who 265 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: download your album and then you can send them emails 266 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: when you have a new album out, and it creates 267 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: this dialogue and you don't get that. So I always 268 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 2: call Spotify drive by. It's like a drive by consumption thing. 269 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: You just stream it and it's one song and then 270 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 2: you're gone. You're off to the next thing. Whereas I'm 271 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 2: a big fan of albums, I'm a big fan of records, 272 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 2: and it's because you get this experience of like really 273 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 2: connecting with the art in a way that I just 274 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: don't think it's possible with streaming. 275 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's one of the tough things about this, 276 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: right is because you know, I think it comes down 277 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: sometimes to your connection with the art, frankly, how much 278 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: you care about the art. Right where I've seen people 279 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: put it this way is if this is something that 280 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 1: you would be sad if it was gone tomorrow, you 281 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: should save a copy of it, whatever that is, even 282 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: if it's just a funny meme or a video on YouTube. 283 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: And I've definitely got videos that I used to send 284 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: to my friends and all of a sudden it's just gone. 285 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: Somebody whoever owned it on YouTube just deleted it. And 286 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: the thing about all of this is I can definitely 287 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: imagine somebody saying, Man, I hear what you two are saying, 288 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: but it's somebody really gonna delete the Beatles' greatest hits, 289 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: Like it's not gonna go away. That's not going away. 290 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: That's fine. Like the stuff that I like is not 291 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: going away. But then again, and as you mentioned, the 292 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: show Friends can just as easily leave one platform and 293 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: go to another platform or whatever the case may be. 294 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: So there's that initial I think feeling of again, just 295 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: that absolute convenience, and I think it's a trade off. 296 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: I think technology has largely become a trade off of 297 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: convenience and control, you know what I mean? Do I 298 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: really need full control over whenever I'm going to access 299 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: this movie? Maybe I'll just trust that Netflix is going 300 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: to keep this movie around. 301 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 3: It's fine. 302 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you were saying, it really depends on what 303 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 2: kind of value you place in the stuff. Like if 304 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 2: you see everything the way that these platforms see it, 305 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 2: which is content, right, If it's just content to you, 306 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: then that's why they use that term, because content is 307 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: a neutral word. It's just a vessel. It's a delivery 308 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 2: mechanism for something. If you see art in that way, 309 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 2: it's a very capitalistic view. It's a very like utilitarian view, 310 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: where it's just interchangeable, and so from that perspective, it 311 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 2: doesn't matter you're not going to place enough value in 312 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 2: individual pieces of content to bother making sure that you're 313 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 2: going to have persistent and continued access to it. Whereas 314 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: if you see these things as expressions of human emotions 315 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 2: and experiences, which is what art is, then that's a 316 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 2: fundamentally different perspective. And it's a perspective that I, in 317 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 2: my darkest moments, I feel is dying a little bit unfortunately. 318 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 2: And I don't think it's like any one reason. It's 319 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 2: the sort of media environment has trained people to because 320 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 2: we're so exposed to all kinds of media and it's 321 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,479 Speaker 2: so accessible, I think it's literally warped our brains and 322 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 2: changed the way we think about individual things. One of 323 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 2: my favorite examples from recent is that certain screenings of 324 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 2: the Minecraft movie with Jack Black, there's some screenings that 325 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 2: they're doing where they're allowing people to talk in the 326 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: movie theater as if we're just all hanging out. We're 327 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 2: all just friends and we're just like meming and being 328 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 2: on our phones and whatever. I mean, it's not that 329 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 2: I find no value in that experience, because I've definitely 330 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 2: put on a movie in the background at home with 331 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 2: friends and just kind of joked around and passively consumed 332 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: it in that way. But to do that in like 333 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 2: a commercialized way that suggests this way of watching the film, 334 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 2: that's a little scary to me, because if you're not 335 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 2: appreciating art enough to like and to be clear, I 336 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,840 Speaker 2: don't think that the Minecraft movie is like a classic 337 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: work of art that must be experienced a certain way. 338 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: It's not about that specific example so much is the 339 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 2: general idea that people's media literacy is extremely bad right now. 340 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: And I think that if people are not willing to 341 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,959 Speaker 2: see these films and different things as art that is 342 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 2: made by people, and are just willing to see it 343 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 2: as interchangeable content, than in that environment it becomes easier 344 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 2: to convince people to not care if something disappears or 345 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 2: if they can't access it again, because it's just replaceable 346 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 2: with something else. 347 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: So, I mean, it almost encurs me that the digital 348 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: pack red thing that you coined, it's almost more of 349 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: a cultural thing than a technological thing. Yeah, right, because 350 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: you're fundamentally asking somebody to look at art differently than 351 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: how we have been looking at art for the past 352 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: decade or so. 353 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's curation. I see it as curation. I think 354 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 2: that is a huge distinction between what people used to 355 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,479 Speaker 2: do in this sort of bygone era that we're referring 356 00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 2: to and what people are being, in some ways condition 357 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 2: to do now, which is consuming versus curating. Curating was 358 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 2: required in the past because you had to make these 359 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 2: discrete decisions about the one hundred songs that I had 360 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 2: on my MP three player. And I'm not saying that 361 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 2: everyone should go back to listening to music on a 362 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 2: one hundred song MP three player, but the point that 363 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: being put into those constraints made the choices of media 364 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: I consumed more specific. It allowed a level of appreciation 365 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 2: that I don't think is possible when you just have 366 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: infinite access to every thing that has ever been made 367 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 2: by every human who has ever existed on Earth. That 368 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 2: level of access is unprecedented, and it's only been the 369 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 2: most recent generation that has come to expect that as 370 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 2: if that's normal. 371 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: Can we change how we engage with art or is 372 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: it too late? And if you want to do this, 373 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: how do you start your own server? 374 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 3: That's after the break. 375 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: Okay, so maybe you've been convinced to try digital pack 376 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 1: riding yourself. How exactly would you do it? So there 377 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: are some things that I can't endorse, but I can 378 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: tell you some ideas you could try. The first step 379 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: is you're going to need a computer that you can 380 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: use as a media server. And don't worry, you don't 381 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: have to go out and buy a thousand dollars rack 382 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: mount server to do this. 383 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 2: A lot of this DIY media server stuff really got 384 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 2: going in the mid twenty tens with the wide availability 385 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 2: of the Raspberry Pie, which is the tiny, little credit 386 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 2: card sized computer. It's a very cheap computer. I think 387 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 2: it's forty bucks. You can fairly easily set up a 388 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 2: little media server. 389 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: But hold up, look, I get it. There's tariffs the 390 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: economies where people getting laid off and write and forty 391 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 1: dollars is not nothing. But there is actually a way 392 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: to do this, potentially for free. I got an old 393 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: MacBook that is a decade old. It's got a crack screen, 394 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: one of the buttons doesn't work right, but that would 395 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: actually work, because again, when we say server that just 396 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: means literally almost any computer. So once you've got your computer, 397 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,199 Speaker 1: you'll need to install some software on that computer that 398 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: you can then remotely access from a different machine. So, 399 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: for example, you could be in your living room or 400 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: your kitchen, or even in another city and you can 401 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,360 Speaker 1: pull out your phone and still be able to watch 402 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: your movies or listen to your music remotely. There are 403 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: a lot of options for your software here, but the 404 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: most popular app to do this, and the one that 405 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: most people recommend just to start off with, is plex 406 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: pl ex. For the basic features, it's free and it 407 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,639 Speaker 1: pretty much just looks like a Netflix interface. You install 408 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: the app, do some basic connecting, and you're done. Oh 409 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: but you'll actually need to get those digital files that 410 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: you want and put them onto your computer. I'll tell 411 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: you two ways to do this. First way, if you've 412 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: got a CD or a DVD line around, here's what 413 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: you can do. There's a program called hand to Break, 414 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: and I'll put a link to it in the show notes, 415 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 1: and it's pretty much dummy proof. You put the disc 416 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: into your computer, you open the program, click a button, 417 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 1: and you've got a file that you can play on 418 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,440 Speaker 1: your computer. But what if you don't have any CDs 419 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: or DVDs or what if you want to download something? 420 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,199 Speaker 1: All right, so if this is some media like a 421 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: movie that you don't actually own yourself, we're getting a 422 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 1: little bit outside the realms of what I should legally 423 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: probably tell you. But I can say this if you 424 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: just want to experiment. Archive dot org has plenty of movies, music, 425 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: books and stuff that is all public domain. The copyright 426 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: has expired, and so it would be legally fine for 427 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: you to grab and download. There's old sci fi films, 428 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: there's cartoons, there's documentaries, classic music, all that sort of thing, 429 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: And that's the basics. Seriously, that's it. Just like Janis 430 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: was saying the beginning, a cloud is just somebody else's computer. 431 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: Spotify is just a big computer with a bunch of 432 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: music files on it. Netflix is a big computer run 433 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: by somebody else with a bunch of movies on it. 434 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: And you can have your own computer with your own 435 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: files on it. 436 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 2: They required a little bit of time and a little 437 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: bit of effort to get running and to work smoothly, 438 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 2: and you know, some of the software it's not the best. 439 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 2: Like have to admit if you know, some of it 440 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 2: it's made by nerds and enthusiasts, and a lot of 441 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 2: it is like you know, it's not the most seamless experience, 442 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 2: but they've gotten a lot better. And if you spend 443 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 2: a little bit of time on it, you can make 444 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 2: a little setup and you can have it available. It's 445 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 2: resilient in ways that relying on a company to manage 446 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 2: everything for you and just being at their whim, their 447 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: mercurial whim will never be as robust. 448 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: So you really asking for us, as listener of music, 449 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: or as a viewer of film or whatever it is, 450 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: to go back to some things that are a little 451 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: bit more difficult. 452 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 2: I don't like to say that, I'm like asking people 453 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 2: to be inconvenience. What I think a lot of artists 454 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 2: right now are asking people to do is to reflect 455 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 2: on your own habits of consumption, reflect on the ways 456 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 2: that you're engaging with art. Because I think the Internet 457 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 2: has given us this sense of there's no scarcity. Everything 458 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 2: is unlimited and available all the time, and you know, 459 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 2: I think in some ways that can be liberating, but 460 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 2: in other ways it's changed people's way of engaging with things. 461 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: I remember interviewing this executive who worked for a streaming 462 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 2: company that no longer exists, which I won't name, And 463 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 2: this person told me that essentially the goal of streaming, 464 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 2: and this was in like twenty eleven or twenty twelve, 465 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 2: so this is like before streaming really took But this 466 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 2: person told me that the goal of streaming was to 467 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 2: make music into a utility like gas and electricity. You know, 468 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 2: it's just a faucet that it comes out of the fosset. 469 00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 2: And the more I thought about that, the more I thought, 470 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 2: this is fundamentally antesthetical to how I think about producing 471 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 2: art and how everybody I know thinks about making things. 472 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 2: That's not a meaningful way of engaging with anything. And so, 473 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,479 Speaker 2: you know, I try to not be snobby about it 474 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 2: or anything, but I think that people need to start 475 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 2: thinking more about how they engage with stuff, how they 476 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 2: engage with art, how they engage with music. Because ultimately, 477 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 2: all of the stuff that I'm talking about doing, like 478 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 2: you know, getting a hard drive or whatever, that's just 479 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 2: the technical side of it. It's not because I think 480 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 2: that it is fundamentally better to have everything on a 481 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 2: hard drive. It's not about the tech. It's about the 482 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 2: way that you engage with the art, not allowing algorithms 483 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: to pick for you, like send me chill vibes, lo 484 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 2: fi anime, hip hop beats to study to, like, you know, 485 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 2: give me more of. 486 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: That based on so many people. 487 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 2: Well, it's not even that I that I totally dislike 488 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 2: that type of music. It's just that, like, so, Liz 489 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 2: Pelly wrote a book about this mood Machine where she 490 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 2: talks about the sort of lo fi chill hip hop 491 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 2: aesthetic as popularized by the low fi beats to Study 492 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 2: to YouTube channel became this hyper commercialized, highly specific aesthetic 493 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 2: that was then fed into an algorithm and then produces 494 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 2: more of the same. And that's how we get derivative, 495 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 2: all this stuff that just you're just you just want 496 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: more of the same, You want the same vibe. You 497 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 2: just want to put in a feeling, and then a 498 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 2: computer make me feel this feeling, you know what I mean? 499 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, So do you think I should become a digital 500 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: pack rat? Should I start building my own serve and 501 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: all that? 502 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 2: I don't think anybody should listen to me. I don't know. 503 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 2: I mean the reason that I kind of called it 504 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 2: the skiky label is because I realize how kind of absurd. 505 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 2: It sounds to be like, here's my little server in 506 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 2: me has all my music on it, and I spend 507 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 2: hours and hours every day organizing my little files. I 508 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: realize how absurd I sound to many people, but there's 509 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 2: a mindset behind that. I find that I can absorb 510 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 2: and engage with music and engage with media in a 511 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 2: meaningful way that feels good to me. By trying to 512 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 2: do it in this. 513 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: Way, I might give this a shot. Actually, I think 514 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: you might have won me over. 515 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:41,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, there are plenty of resources and you 516 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: don't have to go like full pack rap. 517 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: So yeah, I actually gave it a try. I grabbed 518 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: that old mac book, put Plex on it, and it 519 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: took me half an hour to get up and run it. 520 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: I might not be a full fledged digital pack rat 521 00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: just yet, but I have started on backing up some 522 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: of the stuff that actually mean something to me, so 523 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: if they disappear off of Netflix or YouTube or whatever, 524 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: I'll still have it and I won't be in another 525 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 1: situation where something that's really important to me is just gone. 526 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: Shout out to Janis Rohose once again for writing that 527 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: article and maybe not fully taking me down that rabbit hole. 528 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,440 Speaker 1: But at least lead me to that edge. And once 529 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: again you can check the show notes and we'll link 530 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 1: to all the software that I mentioned in this episode 531 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,680 Speaker 1: and also to a couple of tutorials that will break 532 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: things down for you so that it's easy to follow. 533 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: One of the things we want to do with kill 534 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: Switch is bring some of that DIY spirit back to technology. 535 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: You don't have to just accept the services that are 536 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: given to you. You should be able to modify things 537 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: and use them however you want. And that is it 538 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: for this one. Thank you so much for listening to 539 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: kill Switch. If you want to email us or at 540 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: kill Switch at Kaleidoscope dot NYC. We're also on Instagram 541 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: at kill switch pod, and you can also hit me 542 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: directly at dex Digi that's d e x DGI on Instagram, 543 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: on Blue Sky, and if you haven't already done it, 544 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: whatever your favorite podcast platform is, make sure to leave 545 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: us a review. Shout out to the people who've been 546 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: doing that. I really appreciate it, and those reviews really 547 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: do help other people find the show. Kill Switch is 548 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: hosted by me Dexter Thomas. It's produced by Shena Ozaki, 549 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: Darluk Potts and Kate Osborne. Our theme song is by 550 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: Me and Kyle Murdoch and Kyle also mixed the show. 551 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: From Kaleidoscope, our executive producers are oz Va Lashin, Mangesh 552 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 1: Hatikadur and Kate Osborne. From iHeart, our executive producers are 553 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: Katrina Norvil and Nikki Etur. Catch on the next one, Goodbye,