1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: This is Masters in Business with Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. Hi, 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: this is Barry Ridholts. You're listening to Masters in Business 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio, Bloomberg dot Com, Apple iTunes and everywhere else. 4 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: This is the second half of our interview with Bill 5 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,680 Speaker 1: gross By. Now you should have listened to part one, 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: in which he described going into the folks of Pacific 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: Life quote unquote knees knocking and proposing they set up 8 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: a standalone bond shop. Uh, the early days at PIMCO, 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: who his mentors were. That's a fascinating conversation. If you 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,240 Speaker 1: haven't heard it, I suggest you find that and listen 11 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:46,599 Speaker 1: to that first. This half is really the latter days, 12 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: and he describes um how PIMCO grew to be the 13 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: monster it effectively became. He describes his creation of portable Alpha. 14 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if you knew that that's essentially a 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: Bill gross invention. He describes why and how stability leads 16 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: to instability, and we get to talk about our mutual 17 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: friend Paul McCulley, who brought Himan Minsky to his attention. 18 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:18,840 Speaker 1: Who Minsky essentially as a person who explains why stability 19 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: leads to instability. People become complacent, they become more more aggressive, 20 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: they take more risks, and eventually that that has a 21 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: bad ending. And he talks about the FED and QUEI 22 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: and what it was like in the midst of the crisis, 23 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: what it was like to when the FED said They're 24 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: gonna go and buy mortgage backed securities. How come nobody 25 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 1: else did. People didn't trust the FED, they didn't believe it. 26 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: He made a bet that the FED was telling the truth, 27 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: and it netted him ten billion dollars in returns for 28 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: the total return fun shareholders. So he also says some 29 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: very very interesting things about his exit from PIMCO. He 30 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: still is is small learning from that. He feels blindsided. 31 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: He was stunned. He didn't know that a founder slash 32 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: c I O slash shareholder can be unceremoniously dumped. He 33 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: says he was fired from PIMCO, and he thinks PIMCO 34 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: made a mistake. They should have let him. They should 35 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: have accepted his offer, in Bill's words, to step down 36 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: from total return, just from run the closed end funds 37 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 1: and and sort of sail off into the sunset ala 38 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: Peter Lynch. But that didn't happen, and I think, um, 39 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: he feels he still has something to prove, and that's 40 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: how he ended up at at Janice Capital. So anyway, 41 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 1: this is the second half. Um, it's another hour, and 42 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: again you'll find Gross to be very forthcoming, very intelligent, 43 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 1: and very articulate. I found it to be a fascinating conversation, 44 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: and I think you will also with no further ado. 45 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: Here is Bill Gross. This is Masters in Business with 46 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: Barry Ridholts on Bloomberg Radio. What is the state of 47 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: the US economy and what do you think about what's 48 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,679 Speaker 1: happening in Europe and Japan? Well, the entire world, let's 49 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: let's start there is suffering from a lack of aggregant 50 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: demand and that that's almost so undefinable. I suppose it 51 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: takes a textbook, has to be relatively useless, but it 52 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: basically means that the the world is suffering from high 53 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: debt levels, which um which in the past have promoted 54 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: lots of demand over the past thirty years and can 55 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: do so no longer. That the world is in the 56 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: slow process of a demographic crawl towards older age, and 57 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: we see that with Japan and Germany and certainly with 58 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: the boomers in the United States, although our economy is 59 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: less affected. UM. We see that with technology as robots 60 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: replaced people uh you know, jobs from Apple and Google. 61 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: God bless them. They're great companies, but they don't create 62 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 1: a lot of jobs. They create gadgets and wonderful uh 63 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: you know things to uh to to communicate with. UM. 64 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: So the world has changed from the standpoint of aggregate demand. 65 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: There's less of it because of debt, demographics, and technology, 66 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: other influences and so, UM, you know, we are fighting 67 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: what Summers called structural headwinds. We're fighting what I call 68 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: the new normal. Uh. The world uh you know, in 69 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: the developed world cannot grow the way it used to grow. 70 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: It's probably a one to growth rate. UM. You know, 71 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: shouldn't if Europe ever, you know, get out of the whole. Uh. 72 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: In emerging market countries that they've got their own problems 73 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: commodity based, commodity related and dependent upon UH capital inflows 74 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: which now are being pulled back, and so their growth 75 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 1: rates while underdeveloped and having less debt on their balance sheet. 76 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: And developed countries have problems of their own that from 77 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: a financial standpoint, limit their ability to grow. So that 78 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: the the globe, Yes, still grows. The I m F 79 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: puts out forecast of three plus and a lot of 80 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: that's China. But um, so it still grows, but it 81 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: glows much more slowly. And and so from the standpoint 82 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 1: of the US, what we're seeing now at at three 83 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: plus is a little bit of a mirage. You know. 84 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: I I believe in the one to two percent structural 85 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: growth rate that we will you know, very quickly move 86 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: back down towards. And that's not all that bad relative 87 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 1: to everybody else, but it's not what we're used to. 88 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:44,280 Speaker 1: And in terms of corporate profits and and growth and 89 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: and PE ratios, etcetera, etcetera. It's really a suggestion that 90 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: the as I mentioned in my investment outlook last month, 91 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: the the good times are over and returns this year 92 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: in my opinion may h and any cases have minus 93 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: signs in front of them as opposed to positive signs. 94 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: So you don't think that five percent print in GDP 95 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 1: is sustainable? Oh god no, um, But but that's what 96 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: they want. That that's what the Fed. The FED wants 97 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: five percent nominal GDP. That's their target because if the 98 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: economy can grow at five percent, it can continue to 99 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 1: to pay off you know, it's it's interest rate bills, 100 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: both publicly and privately. UM. If it only grows at 101 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 1: three percent or three percent two percent, then uh, an 102 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: economy like the United States, a levered economy like the 103 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: United States, has a difficulty in terms of pain you know, 104 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: for its past consumption. It's past credit. UM. It's just 105 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: that simple and um. You know we shall see. You know, 106 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: since since Lehman Brothers credit private credit credit I mentioned 107 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: in the first segment, that had grown from one trillion 108 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 1: to fifty eight trillion has grown about a three to 109 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,719 Speaker 1: four percent clips. Some in some sectors higher like with 110 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: the government and their deficits, some cases lower like with 111 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: mortgages and in private consumers. But in any case, that's 112 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: been growing at three to four percent UM. The the 113 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: economy needs credit to grow three for four percent needs 114 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: nominal GDP or else um uh assets um in order 115 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: to make the cover to make the interest rate UM, 116 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: they start to be sold, and that that's the beginning 117 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: of a debt deflation that all central banks want to prevent. 118 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: I want to avoid deflation. Let you mentioned you mentioned 119 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: aggregate demands. Leads me to a conversation I add with 120 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: your colleague Paul McCulley, who was defending what the Federal 121 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: Reserve had done on the basis that Congress had abdicated 122 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: their responsibility. We normally see following a financial crisis, big stimulus, 123 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: a lasting stimulus, and a lot of hiring on the 124 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: state and federal level. We didn't get this time. If anything, 125 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 1: we saw a contraction on the state and local level. 126 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: And while we had a i want to call it 127 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: a eight hundred billion dollars stimulus, half of it were 128 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: temporary tax cuts and on a big chunk of it 129 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: was temporary extension of unemployment. So you were really left 130 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: with like a two or a three hundred billion dollar stimulus, 131 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: and he was talking about a two to three trillion 132 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 1: dollar stimulus. Let's talk a little bit about Congress this cycle. 133 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: Did they do what they should have done following the crisis? 134 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: And did I'm paraphrasing Paul, did the Fed really have 135 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: no option? Was it, Hey, we're the only game in town. 136 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: If we don't do something, we're just gonna spiral to 137 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: really bad places. I'm with Paul there with the exception 138 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: that they shouldn't have gone blow one percent, and that's 139 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: the problem now. And I'm with Krugman and Summers and 140 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: uh and McCauley in in terms of the need for 141 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: fiscal stimulation and the lack of it as you just 142 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: described it, there's there's no doubt that at these interest rates, uh, 143 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 1: you know, the government could be financing a multitude of 144 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: infrastructure uh projects. And then we have the Republican view 145 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: and the democratic view in terms of the uh, the 146 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: productivity of public investment. But you know, let's face it, 147 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 1: there's lots of areas in terms of roads and um 148 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: other large projects that the government must do and and 149 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: has done rather efficiently in the past. And so let's 150 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: let's borrow money cheaply at two on a tenure basis 151 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: and use that money to uh, you know, to to 152 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: create jobs and to to repair obvious deficiencies and uh, 153 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 1: you know, our private infrastructure and public infrastructure. So yeah, 154 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: I think we've fallen down from a fiscal standpoint. Did 155 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,719 Speaker 1: the monetary authorities have no other choice? Um? Probably not, 156 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: But with the the exception of of going going to zero, 157 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: I think they could have stopped center at one. You know, 158 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: certain countries have looked at and issued fifty year bonds 159 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: to finance their long term debt. Is that something that 160 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: makes sense for the United States now that rates are 161 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: this low? Yeah, I think someone we're looking at it. 162 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: I mean, they put out feelers and uh uh, you know, 163 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: they bring in private companies like like Pimco, not Channis 164 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: at the moment, but and asked them as to the 165 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: you know, to the viability of a fifty year bond 166 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 1: and who would be a buyer, and doesn't make sense? 167 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 1: And yeah, certainly from the standpoint of pension funds which 168 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: are terribly um in many cases still underfunded and mismatched. 169 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, fifty years maybe a little long, but you know, 170 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: their problems emanated from the fact that there liabilities were 171 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: always much longer than their assets and um, and now 172 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: they're in many cases they're terribly underfunded. So sure, a 173 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: fifty year piece of paper would make sense from the buyer. 174 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: It would probably come at a Yeah, let me take 175 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: that back. I'm not sure whether they would come at 176 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: a premium to a to a thirty year piece of 177 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: paper because of the convexity inherent in it. But in 178 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: any case, it would be cheap and half something like that. 179 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: Probably less, you know, probably less, Yeah, probably closer to 180 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 1: this is my money for half a century giving two 181 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: point seven five? Is that right? Right? Um? Or three percent? 182 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: And so it would be very cheap financing for a 183 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: government and could be put to productive us. So I 184 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: want to get to a lot of the questions that 185 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: people had asked on Twitter. But let's I would be 186 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about that 187 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 1: unpleasantness last year. So let's let me fire a few 188 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: questions is about this and I'll ease into it. Um. 189 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,559 Speaker 1: And this is a question actually came from Twitter, which 190 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: was you're reputed to be a tough guy to work for? 191 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: True false? Um, you know, in some ways, but because 192 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,439 Speaker 1: a leader has to be exacting. I mean, this is 193 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: a business of money, of dollars and cents, and mistakes 194 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: can be very costly. And if you don't have a 195 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: leader looking out for mistakes and berating those that make 196 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: significant mistakes, then what have you? You've got a loose 197 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: company that ultimately is not doing a service to its clients. 198 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 1: So you know, I was always a stickler in terms 199 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: of details, a stickler in terms of holding me needs 200 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: and communication and going over the strategy. Um. You know, 201 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: I thought that that was important. I thought that was 202 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 1: my duty to clients to get it right. And so 203 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: if they consider that to be an attitude, I guess rightly. So. 204 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: On the other hand, I'm a pretty quiet guy. Um. 205 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: I liked to, uh to sort of sit there and 206 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: look at my Bloomberg screens and and do trades. And 207 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: when it came to twelve o'clock hour, we would have 208 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: an investment committee for two and a half hours, so 209 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: that that would be my time to come together with 210 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: the company. Uh you know. I I viewed myself as 211 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: in many cases a mouse as opposed to a lion. 212 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: Um in a mouse that sometimes roared, as opposed to 213 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: a lion that, uh you know, was was constantly on 214 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: the prowl. So yeah, I I tough but fair? Is 215 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 1: that what you're sort of hinting at? Or I think so? 216 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: I think I think a leader has to be tough. 217 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:49,479 Speaker 1: If if you sit around a table and you congenially, um, 218 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: you know, look for a consensus, uh type of type 219 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: of outcome, you're in trouble. You can't manage money. You 220 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,360 Speaker 1: can't manage money that way. At some point somebody has 221 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: to step in and said, we're going in this direction 222 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 1: and Uh, I studviewed that as as my job, and 223 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 1: I think I did it well. So Alians bought PIMCO 224 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: in nine for I think it was about five point 225 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 1: nine billion. Am I getting those numbers more or less? Right? 226 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: You hung around for another fifteen years, which is very 227 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: unusual in the world, certainly of technology, when when the 228 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: founders are bought out, they tend to go on to 229 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: the next thing. But you stayed at PIMCO and managed 230 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: it for another fifteen years. How did that happen? They 231 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: pretty much left you free reign to do what you wanted. 232 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: They did, and and it Uh. First of all, I 233 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: gave them my promise, not for fifteen years, but uh, 234 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: you know, for a certain long period of time that 235 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: I'd stick around. At the time, I was only hive 236 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 1: so and you were the brand. You were the most 237 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: recognizable guy, right, So I gave them a promise. I 238 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: remember earlier ten years before, a Japanese company had come 239 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: by and they've been worried about what they called the 240 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: black box. They didn't know what was in the box. 241 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: And you know, if if Gross ever left, what was 242 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: in the box? Um? And and so I told all 243 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: the answer, Yeah, that was it was good to go 244 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: and for a good number of years. Um, and I 245 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: you know, I fulfilled that that promise for them and 246 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: and for myself. You know, I still want to manage 247 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: money and so um uh. You know, it wasn't strange. 248 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: I wasn't motivated ever by money. It's nice to have money. 249 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: It's nice to have a nice home or two, uh, 250 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: and to have the privilege of not worrying about, you know, 251 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: wearing next paychecks coming. But it was never money that motivated. 252 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: It was always, um, it was always clients and the 253 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: recognition from them that I was doing a good job. 254 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: That's what I always always working for and still am 255 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: so when so full disclosure for those of you who 256 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: are listening. I had written a column last year about 257 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: the bonus structure at PIMCO, which you responded to by saying, thanks, 258 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: now I got to get a bodyguard for you revealing 259 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: all that, But you challenged the track record of I 260 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: had mentioned in the article that the two thousand and 261 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: eleven total return never return, never recovered. You challenge that, 262 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: and it turned out it did recover. The track record 263 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: wasn't as people had said. But what struck me as 264 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: quite fascinating was you directed me to look at the 265 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: closed end funds you were managing, and the people at 266 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: morning Star could not stop gushing. You know, they said, well, 267 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: total Return has had a great track record. It's not 268 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: in the top decile in the past couple of years, 269 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: but these closed end funds were ranked one to three, 270 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: four and six, five of the five of the top 271 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: six in the entire peer group, they were ninety ninercentile. 272 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: It raises a question, why not say, hey, you guys, 273 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: take over total Return. It's too big for me. I'm 274 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: happy to just run. Um, I'm happy to just run 275 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: the closed end funds. Why not? UM? I guess you 276 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: should have been my agent. Um that because by Barry 277 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: the truth be told, and you're looking for some truth here. Um, 278 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: that's exactly what I did say. UM. I said, if 279 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,959 Speaker 1: for some reason, you're dissatisfied with me from the standpoint 280 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: of personality, here from the standpoint of business direction, if 281 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: you think you want to pursue a different direction as 282 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: opposed to you know what I called burgers and bonds, 283 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: the plane vanilla total return type of product. Uh, then fine, Um, 284 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 1: you know I'll I'll step down from the executive committee 285 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: from a compensation committee and just manage the closed in funds. Uh. 286 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: You know, I I love I love that area because 287 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: it's an area where individuals can buy them, you know, 288 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: for a ten dollar ticket with the Schwab or whoever 289 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 1: their broker is. And uh. And you know, if they 290 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: can find a good one like the ones you mentioned, Uh, 291 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: you know, they can profit enormously in the bond work. 292 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: And so I said, hey, I'd be willing to do that. 293 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: But for some reason, still unbeknownst to me, they didn't 294 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,880 Speaker 1: think that was a good idea, and they they did 295 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,479 Speaker 1: fire me. Barry did Now, you technically quit before they 296 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: fired you, but you knew it was coming. You said 297 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: I'm getting out before they formally. Did you not have 298 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: an inkling this was coming? That this blind side you well? 299 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,359 Speaker 1: And you know, I'd have to say in the last 300 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,440 Speaker 1: few weeks that it blindsided me. I had no idea 301 00:18:56,680 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: that an executive committee could fire a founder and the 302 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: titular leader of the of the company. UM. I found 303 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: out about two months later. I was visiting a neighbor 304 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: who was sick and he's eighty years old now and 305 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: he's a retired Air Force general. But we had a 306 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: nice discussion about his situation, and then I was as 307 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: I was leaving, he said, well, he said, you should 308 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: have come to see me six months ago. And I said, 309 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: what was that, General? And he said, because I could 310 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 1: have told you the first rule of the military. And 311 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: I said, what's up? And he said, what's your back? Lieutenants. Yeah, 312 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: a lot a lot of guys got fragged right back 313 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: in the in the old days. Um so now you're 314 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 1: now you're a janice. You're running an unconstrained fund. Obviously 315 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: much different. Are you doing anything different? Not from an 316 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: asset management perspective, but from a business perspective, from an 317 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 1: interacting with colleagues perspective. What sort of mark did PIMCO 318 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 1: leave on you? Are you changing anything or is it? Hey, 319 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: it's a different world. It's a reboot and I'm going 320 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: to do what I do best well at the end. 321 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: Constraint is different. I was I was running unconstrained Pimpco. 322 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: But unconstrained allows you to uh it to be long 323 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: and to be short. I suppose it's not a hedge fund. 324 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: It's not highly levered, but you know it does has 325 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: flexibility and it it's not duration or maturity focused like 326 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: the total return product. It is, as you've just pointed out, 327 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: much smaller at two billion. It does allow a lot 328 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: more flexibility. It does permit, uh, you know, the incorporation 329 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: of an idea that can't really be traced by the 330 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,479 Speaker 1: street or or jumped in front of And so for 331 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: all those reasons, it's it's it's it's a much more 332 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 1: manageable situation. It is smaller. Um. You know, Janis has 333 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: a large operation in Denver. I use their credit research 334 00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: uh team. As a matter of fact, I'm going to 335 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: recommend one of their bond funds at at Barrens in 336 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: just a few hours at the roundtable, five star funds. 337 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: So they've got you know, excellent credit research that I utilize. UM. Yeah, 338 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: they're not as advanced in terms of derivatives. Uh, and 339 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: we'll bring that up to speed. We've we've got Myron 340 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: Shoals by the way, uh and uh you know several 341 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: other people that are really advanced in terms of uh 342 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: obviously derivative thinking and exposure. And so you know, the 343 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 1: attempt is not to rebuild PIMCO two. I don't want 344 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: to have twenty one floors, uh, you know, right next 345 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: to the PIMCO building, but but certainly to to build 346 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: a structure that adds value for clients. And that that's 347 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 1: the biggest concern very I got at the moment, is 348 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: that with return so low and with with fees doing 349 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,919 Speaker 1: what they're doing not coming down very much, maybe in 350 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: the hedge fund world to some extent it um you know, 351 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: I I I worry about the plight of the investor 352 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, if they can only earn three 353 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: or four percent annulate, um, I think they need a 354 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: good deal. Uh maybe not Roosevelt's new deal, but they 355 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: need a good deal and you know, I hope to 356 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: bring that to them through Janis. So anything you've learned 357 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 1: personally in terms of the business side, the interpersonal relations side, 358 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: do you watch your back? You mentioned what do you 359 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:34,200 Speaker 1: take away from the the exit to to the new gig? Yeah, 360 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 1: I think that although although no, I'm not going to 361 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,679 Speaker 1: be in a position. I told Dick Weyle, who who's 362 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 1: the CEO at Janis that you know, he's running the business. 363 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to be part of those committees. I 364 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 1: just want to manage money, um. And so that aspect 365 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: is is out of the picture, and I'm not sure 366 00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: there's uh uh too many people have got to watch 367 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: behind my back. I think Dick has my back in 368 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: terms of a strong wind behind me and so um, 369 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: you know a lot of confidence there. But you know, 370 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: I think that was my big mistake at PIMCO, as 371 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: I simply assumed that, uh that executives cannot be so 372 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: uh stupid as to to do what they did. So 373 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: let's in the last few minutes we have because I 374 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: know you gotta get to barons. We have to get 375 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: you out of here in ten minutes. Let me go 376 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: to Twitter and fire some Well, this will be the 377 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: rapid round part. I'll go to the favorite questions that 378 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 1: had come up from Twitter. Here's one from George Caracas. 379 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: What are two or three interests or activities unrelated to 380 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: investing that have influenced your approach to investing. We obviously 381 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: talked about about blackjack. What else? Well, I think stamps 382 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: did um really yeah? And and bonds influence stamps but 383 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: uh yeah. When I started collecting stamps, I took the 384 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: the approach of each uh press a stamp, the value 385 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: of ones having a provenance much like a money painting 386 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 1: um or a picasso, and I tracked them in time 387 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: for you know, the last century in terms of their 388 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: sales prices and auction prices, much like uh, you know, 389 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: going back in terms of the FED and looking at 390 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: historic interest rates where they bottomed in World War Two, UH, 391 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: caps and UH and monetary policy and all of that. 392 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,160 Speaker 1: And so I took a historic approach to two stamps 393 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: and tracked the progress of prices up and down during 394 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: recessions and recoveries, etcetera, etcetera, and uh, I think became 395 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:41,159 Speaker 1: a real good buyer of stamps at the right price. 396 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: Problem with stamps is, how do you know what a 397 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: little piece of papers worth? It's the same thing as 398 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: that with a Picasso. How do you know what what 399 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: a you know, a picture of you know, Picasso's blond 400 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: haired girlfriend looks like, uh, what is it worth? Um? 401 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: It's worth what you're willing to pay for it. But 402 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: there is a there's a fundamental basis for it all 403 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: in and the basis is is the growth of GDP 404 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,199 Speaker 1: and the growth of growth of wealth over time. And 405 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: so I applied that the stamps as well, and did 406 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: did pretty well. You were you were on CBS Sunday morning. 407 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: You have one of the only one of the few 408 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: complete collections of U S stamps US American stamps around 409 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 1: is that? Is that accurate? The only one ever ever? Ever. 410 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,719 Speaker 1: So here's a question from Jim Arnold's in two parts, 411 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: what are your thoughts of the impact of China on 412 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: the future of money management? And do you need an intern? Yeah, 413 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: I think he's volunteer. So so China and the impact 414 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: of money management, well, I think significant in terms of uh, 415 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: you know, China's growth and UH, China's um currency position, 416 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: whether they want the the reman be to to appreciate 417 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: or to gradually depreciate like it has in the last 418 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: three four or five weeks, and what they intend to 419 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: do ultimately with all of their treasuries. UM. You know. 420 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: It used to be the a sense bury of the 421 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: bond vigilantes, the pimcos of the world. Where the vigilantes, 422 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: the real vigilantes these days are China and Japan, UH, 423 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: and UH the Russia in a small way. They they 424 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: can move markets and and so yeah, the impact of 425 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: China going forward not just in terms of what they 426 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: hold in terms of their reserves, but there the monetary 427 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: um organization that they're trying to create as a counter 428 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: influence to the I m f uh. You know, trying 429 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: to combine Brazil and South American countries and other Asian 430 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 1: countries as a counter balance and a counterweight. Um, you know, 431 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: all that will be significantly important in terms of the 432 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 1: balance of the world and who controls uh the gold 433 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: so speak. Here's an interesting question from Charles Biello. Uh 434 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: in in the era of negative interest rates and QE, 435 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 1: do the textbooks on bond math and net present value 436 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 1: need to be rewritten? Um? You know, I don't think so. 437 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: It is fascinating and studying to to see negative interest rates, 438 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: something that two years ago I would theoretically have said 439 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: couldn't happen. But you know, the fact is at the 440 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 1: moment in Europe, investors are willing to pay the government 441 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: to hold their money. UM. I suppose that's the same 442 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 1: concept as putting precious stones in a vault and paying 443 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: a price in order to do that. But yeah, I 444 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 1: don't think you have to to over ruled Macaulay and 445 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: duration a considerations that you know, the mathematics will always hold. Uh. 446 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: The question is how or below zero could we practically go? 447 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: And I I don't think we can go practically much 448 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 1: below zero Before the mattress as opposed to the euro 449 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: or or even the dollar become a dominant consideration. Ultimately, 450 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,440 Speaker 1: you can you can just put your money in a 451 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: mattress and not pay a fee. In the last two minutes, 452 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 1: three quick questions. One comes from Kurt Marco. What do 453 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: you contribute your success to? What's the most important attribute 454 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: or experience for that success? Oh? I I think it's 455 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: you know, putting the focus on on the client as 456 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: opposed to, um, you know, the company or on yourself personally. 457 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: If you always focus in terms of what they require, 458 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,239 Speaker 1: the risk that you're taking for them, the fact that 459 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,080 Speaker 1: you know the protection of their principle is the critical 460 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: element in terms of what you're doing and knowing that, uh, 461 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:07,239 Speaker 1: you know, ultimately the investors success is your success. I 462 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: think that's that's the critical focus. So last question, given 463 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: your age and your accomplishments, why not just kick back 464 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: and retire? Why keep working and working so hard? Well? 465 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: I could have done that, but you know, I thought 466 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: about it in terms of, you know, a game of 467 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: basketball where you're shooting hoops for your own pleasure and 468 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: they go in or they don't go in, and uh, 469 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: it's fun, but it's it's much more fun to play 470 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: a game of horse with somebody else. They got an age. 471 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: You gotta know they gottat. Are you gonna l uh? 472 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: You know it's a it's a game of competition as 473 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: opposed to simply play in a game. And I could 474 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: have played the game, but I want to beat the 475 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 1: pants off of the competition like I have for the 476 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: past thirty or thirty five years. I want to prove 477 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: that it seventy that I haven't lost my touch, and 478 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: that PIMCO was wrong and letting me go. And so 479 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,479 Speaker 1: for all those reasons, I'm here and expect to be 480 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: around for a while. Bill, Thank you so much for 481 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: spending so much time with us. This has been an 482 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 1: absolute pleasure. I appreciate um you sitting with us for 483 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: two hours. We've been speaking to Bill Gross, who runs 484 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: the Young Constrained Funds at Janice, formerly of PIMCO. Thank 485 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: you so much for coming in. Thank you, Barry boy, 486 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: it's been a short two hours. Yeah, for sure. You're 487 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: listening to Masters in Business with Barry rid Holts on 488 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio.