1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Danny and Samantha and welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 1: I'll never told your production of I heart rate you, 3 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: and it's time for another female first. We are joined 4 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: once again by our friend and coworker Eaves. I haven't returned. 5 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: We're so glad you ever returned. Really glad you haven't 6 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: left us yet. Yes, it's always a fun time when 7 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: we get we get Eaves in the studio, you know, 8 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: having one more person to add to the conversation that 9 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: very like easy soothing monotoon. Yeah. I actually have a 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: weird thing where I like, I'm not into a SMR 11 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: or anything, but there's certain YouTube videos I watched that 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: are scary, but they're delivered in such a way that 13 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: I just I'm like, oh, yes, this horrible thing happened. 14 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: It's just delivered. It's the delivery, and that's how that happens. 15 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: But they're talking about horrible things, not necessarily horrible things, 16 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: because it's not like true crime. It's more ghost sighting. Okay, 17 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: isn't that one dude that has that really weird Yeah, yeah, 18 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: I know what you're talking about. I love it. It's 19 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: oddly satisfying. Okay. I can't listen to it. I have 20 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: to read it. I can't. Yeah, I get frustrated real 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: quick because it's I'm like, all right, I'm just gonna 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: read it because he seems very cool, the dude. I 23 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: don't know if it's the same dude writing, but I'm like, 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: because it's not building up to the yea an opposite 25 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: of what you're seeing, Like the ghost is here, but 26 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: the ghost showed up and there it is? Did you 27 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: see it? Do you believe it? And then it's like 28 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: things that are things that a lot of people would 29 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: agree like just didn't happen is the most plain Like 30 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: this obviously happened. Obviously there was a flying saucer in 31 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: the sky, and there's no discrepancy in that at all. Sure, 32 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,559 Speaker 1: I'm glad you all knew what I was talking because 33 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: I started like watching them and I'm thinking, man, I'm 34 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: just gonna have to turn the volume down and just 35 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: read it. I'm just gonna read it and go back 36 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: and look at it. Oh that's interesting because I know 37 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: some people will write in and they'll say in the 38 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: most complimentary I think they truly mean as a compliment, 39 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: your voice puts me to sleep, And I'm like, cool, great, 40 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: I mean if it's to you. Yeah, people have said 41 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: that to me, that your voice. I think you have 42 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: a very nice voice. Thank you. We have us had 43 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: that radio voice you think. So. I've always been very 44 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: self conscious about my voice, honestly, especially when I was younger, 45 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: because I always thought that my voice was deep, and 46 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: I'm like, well, it was nothing I ever had a 47 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: real sort of like feelings around, but like I would 48 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: think it from time to time. I think the way, Yeah, 49 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: I think all of our voices are fairly deep, and 50 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: that usually is like a more soothing tone. Definitely didn't 51 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: complimented my voice, which freaked me out a little bit 52 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: because I'm like, dude, and yeah, it's just usually dudes, 53 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: calm down. That's so creepy to me. And I don't 54 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: know what to do with you. But to be fair, 55 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: like Adris Elba if he was here, to be like, 56 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: just talk to me, like can fall asleep to your voice? 57 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: But that's just me. I don't know. Um, but yeah, no, 58 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: I think like smooth, not necessarily our annunciation or of that, 59 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: but just the tone. You could see that here it 60 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: all right. I think we could be late night radio 61 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: st rock, contempo adult contemplo perfect. Well. Anyway, in our 62 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: nice deliveries, we have an amazing person about today, Um, 63 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: who did you bring for us? Today? We'll be talking 64 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: about Harriet E. Wilson, who was an author in the 65 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. So she was the first black woman to 66 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: publish a novel and she made she did the first 67 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: novel published by a black person in the United States. 68 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: So there was a Clotail, which was a book by 69 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: William Wells Brown, who was a black man, which was 70 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: the first novel published by an African American period, but 71 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: that was published in London in eighteen fifty three and 72 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: it didn't come to Boston until eighteen sixty four. So 73 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: there are those caveats, like obviously there's a history of 74 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: like who was the black person to do this, and 75 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: what was the label for this? And the woman and 76 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: they were African American, but where did it happen? So 77 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: obviously when we have first, we have all these other 78 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: first that are surround that single first. So that was 79 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: another one of them. But it was also Harriet E. 80 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: Wilson's novel and it was called Our Nig And we'll 81 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 1: talk about that obviously a lot in today's episode. But 82 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: it was possibly the first novel by a person of 83 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: African descent in all of North America. And we'll get 84 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: to this later on as well. Teaser teaser, but there 85 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: was another woman in Brazil who was of African descent 86 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: who also published a novel and at the same time. 87 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: Their two names are mentioned together a lot of the time, 88 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:58,559 Speaker 1: like a little bonus, just just flight sliding and really 89 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: not not too much shout out, just a shout out, 90 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,239 Speaker 1: I love it. Again. Context so important with these first 91 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: very glad that that you bring that when you bring 92 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: you do we love it. So there's not a lot 93 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: of information out there on Herritt E. Wilson, and we'll 94 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: talk about the discovery process of the book because for 95 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: a long time, it wasn't known she wasn't known about 96 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: It wasn't known that she was a black woman, it 97 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: wasn't known that she was the author of this book. Um. 98 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: And it's in our very recent history that we figured 99 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: all this out. We I say, we like I figured 100 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: anything out. When I said we, I say, other people 101 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,039 Speaker 1: who are like professionals and stuff and do history and 102 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: scholarship and all those fancy things. Um. But yeah, so 103 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: a lot of what we do know about her, though, 104 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: is through the things that those historians and scholars have 105 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: collected about her life, but those things are still very 106 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: few and far between, and a lot of what has 107 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: been pulled out of it has been kind of like 108 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: this corroboration between what happened in the novel, which is 109 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: a him to be Idle biographical, and then what happened 110 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: according to records that are kept that have been kept 111 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: of Harriett E. Wilson. But and and so she was 112 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: somebody that has been on my list for a long 113 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: time who I wanted to talk about, obviously because I'm 114 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: interested in literary things. And I was in this space 115 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: where I was just thinking, what am I going to 116 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: talk about about her? Because there isn't so much known 117 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: about her life, and the stuff that we say did 118 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: happen may not be the case. We're just deducing those 119 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: things from the information that we do have. But then 120 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: I thought about it, and I was like, well, she's 121 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: probably the person I need to talk about the most 122 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: because that's going to happen so frequently. It's like, well, 123 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: we don't know anything about There was already so much 124 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: of a span where her book wasn't talked about at 125 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 1: all because we didn't know who wrote it, and she 126 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: wasn't giving credit for it, and she wasn't giving credit 127 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: for it. And so now for me to say, oh, 128 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 1: because there's not that much information about her, I don't 129 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: know if this can fill a whole amount of time. 130 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,919 Speaker 1: It's just just so to disservice to her legacy, to 131 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: her honor, and to everybody who cares about literary history 132 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: and women's history and just learning that, Hey, you know, 133 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: it's okay for us to speak about it's good for 134 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: us to discuss these people who have been such a 135 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: integral part of the history. But also there isn't that 136 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: much known about them, and that's okay, right, Yeah, I 137 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: completely agree. And I struggled with that for a while 138 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: because there there would be topics I want to talk 139 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: about and I just want to read everything about them, 140 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: and it would be so hard to find credible information. 141 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: But I didn't want that to stop as from talking 142 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: about those things. And you can. I think there's a 143 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: conversation to be had and it's worth having around why 144 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: that information isn't there, right, Yes, Um, there's a huge conversation, 145 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: especially when it comes to how much was not documented 146 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: and It's also it's interesting to think about that kind 147 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: of documentation and then what Harriet Evilson was actually talking 148 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: about in her books. She was talking about life as 149 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: a free black person pre Civil War, and so just 150 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: how much of her in her actual life documentation didn't happen. 151 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: But in thinking about the idea of slavery, the institution 152 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 1: of slavery, and how many families weren't documented or were 153 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: documented incorrectly, and what labels were given to people like Mulatto. 154 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: Um So, I just think it's interesting to think about 155 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: how we today have gathered and think about her documentation 156 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: and then what she was actually talking about in her 157 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: novel Our nig Rights, and it's kind of astounding. I 158 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: mean that it's recent, as you said, recent discovery, so 159 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: history you never know, let you find um So, yeah, 160 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: I'm excited. The point how many these happily lost? Like, 161 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: how many things do we not know with this small 162 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: discovery had this not been a coincidental moment of oh oh, 163 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: and then putting of course, putting all that hard work 164 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: to putting it together. At the same time, look at 165 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: what we probably have missed. You gotta you have to 166 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: wonder what vast amounts of conversations and then all of 167 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 1: kind of history, what was documented what wasn't because also 168 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,199 Speaker 1: at that point in time, education was not offered to 169 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: everyone as we know, and equality was far from happening 170 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 1: for anybody except for white men. Was just be really honest, 171 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: it's kind of familiar, but not that's extreme and talking 172 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: about also her separation, and I know you're going to 173 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: go into it. I'm excited about it, but the difference 174 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: between the South and the North at that point in 175 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: time is also kind of like it wasn't as great 176 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: as you think. Oh yeah, I think that that's a 177 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 1: myth that's been busted a lot in recent history for 178 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people. At least, I know that my 179 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: education coming up, when it came to us history was 180 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: very uh limited and didn't talk about a lot of 181 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: things or provide context for a lot of things that 182 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: was related to black life and in America, uh and 183 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: in the field that we are in media and the 184 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: things that we think about, um as feminists, it's just 185 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: we understand living in the South, you know, there's nothing, 186 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: there's nothing that beats experience. That's something I've been thinking 187 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: about a lot lately. Um, So we actually live in 188 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: the place that so many other people look at from 189 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:20,599 Speaker 1: the outside and say, this is how it is, this 190 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: this land of like you know, all the misconceptions about 191 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,559 Speaker 1: the South and also accurate perceptions of the South, but 192 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: that have more nuanced And that's so in the case 193 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: of what Harriet E. Wilson touches on in her book. 194 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:34,719 Speaker 1: And we're about to go through the whole story. But yes, 195 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: that's a great point to bring up in the beginning, 196 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: because just to lay the groundwork for this conversation is that, sure, 197 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: there's a North and there's a South in terms of 198 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: the geographical boundaries that we create have literally artificially created, 199 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: but there is some like obviously artificial boundaries but contextually 200 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: still actual boundaries between the North and the South because 201 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: of the way that the colonies were divided in the 202 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: way that you know, civil war YadA YadA, YadA. Um. 203 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: This is not that kind of lesson today. But the 204 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: point of this is to say that it wasn't a 205 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: clear definition between these people in the South fought for 206 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: this for this reason, um, and the South was holy 207 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: and completely racist, in the North was holy and completely 208 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: not racist. Like that's not how it was white abolitionists 209 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 1: in the North. Um. If we go back to the 210 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: days of when you know, there was the back to 211 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,840 Speaker 1: Africa movement. The reasons, the different reasons that people had 212 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: for wanting black people to go back to Africa was 213 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: not just for them to have a better life. A 214 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: lot of the people who wanted free black people to 215 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: go back to Africa, to go to Liberia, to go 216 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: over there, to the continent of Africa was because they 217 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 1: didn't want them in. They didn't want them in the 218 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: u A. And so they're just nuance like so, and 219 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: that's one of the big things about her book Our 220 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: nig and how it was different from so many other 221 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: stories that were being told at the time of slave. Yeah, 222 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: so let's get in. We've done a lot of talking 223 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 1: about like what it's about, but I feel like I 224 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: need to give the actual story. There's a lot of 225 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: build up. You're expecting this to be so amazing, and 226 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: trust me, it's amazing in the sense that it's literary history. 227 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: But it's not like the greatest, the most happy story, 228 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: right all right, So there we go. Our nigg is 229 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 1: the name of the book in the full title is 230 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: Our nig Or Sketches from the Life of a free 231 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: Black in a two story white house North, showing that 232 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: slavery shadows fall even there. And that's my favorite part 233 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 1: of the title, showing that slavery shadows fall even there, 234 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: because that shows that awareness that she had of these 235 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: misconceptions about the North, like how people thought that in shadows, 236 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: just like that's a great word, um, how people thought 237 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: that that was a place that wasn't affected by the 238 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: brutal atrocity of everything, the whole history of enslavement and 239 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: racism in the United States. So the book is accepted 240 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: as being autobiographical, like I said earlier, but it's also 241 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: worked within the space of the sentimental novel, which was 242 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: a thing at the time. And then it also references 243 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: the conventions of the nineteenth century slave narrative, which was 244 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 1: also a thing that happened a lot. And it's been 245 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: argued also that the text is often satirical. So I've 246 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: seen people read about you know how it's it is autobiographical, 247 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: But we must recognize, and I think this is a 248 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: great point to bring up. We must recognize Harriett Evilson's 249 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: power as a storyteller, that she wasn't just a person 250 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: who was writing it was just my life and I'm 251 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: just gonna put on the page. Like she was actually 252 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 1: thinking about semantics, that what the context of things that 253 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: she was talking about, the story she was trying to tell, 254 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: how she was telling it in artistic way. You know, 255 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: she was also a storyteller. She wasn't just like I'm 256 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: putting my life on the page. So the book was 257 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: published on September five, eighteen fifty nine. And in the preface, 258 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: there's a very short preface in the beginning of the book, 259 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: Wilson says, and it's just credited as H. E. W 260 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 1: in this part, but this is what she says or writes, 261 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: Deserted by kindred, disabled by failing health, I am forced 262 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: to some experiment which shall aid me in maintaining myself 263 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: and child without extinguishing this feeble life. And so she 264 00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: goes on to say, I have purposely omitted what would 265 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: most provoke shame in our good anti slavery friends at home. 266 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: And she goes on to ask her quote colored brethren 267 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: to support her and purchase her book so she could 268 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: support her child. And we will see the same story 269 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: in the text of the novel itself. Um. And so 270 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: that was kind of a call to action or a 271 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: call for help on her part, saying, I need you 272 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: to read this book. I need all the people who 273 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: support me and defend me. I'm gonna censor myself essentially 274 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: as what she was saying, and some in some aspects, 275 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: but I need y'all to support me so that I 276 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: can help much child. Right, And that is so that 277 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: is a way to begin a book, right, yeah, right, 278 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: oh yeah, I love to start with the call to 279 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: action right away. Hey, put it right up front. And 280 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: I'm just in here thinking and I go through this 281 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: conversation in my head so much like what am I 282 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: creating my work for? Like what am I writing for? 283 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: And I like struggle with this so much, And then 284 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: I see something like this and like she was doing 285 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: it so she could have her child, like so she 286 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: could take care of her telf them, Like what everything 287 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: that I'm doing just like it doesn't matter, but I 288 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: know it's not true, but like I do like seeing 289 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: stuff like this. It just helps me put into perspective 290 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: like why I am involved in the artistry that I 291 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: am involved in, and the struggles and just how interesting 292 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: it is that she was creating art but she was 293 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: also it was also utility. It was art in utility. 294 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: At the same time, it was very honest, and that's 295 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: what makes it like heartbreakingly beautiful. It's just very honest, 296 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: like this is why I'm doing this. Not only am 297 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: I going to say this and I'm going to leave 298 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: some of the bad parts out because it's not gonna 299 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: be sellable. She knew that if I don't leave some 300 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: of you know, if I don't sensor myself a little 301 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: bit as well as please understand, I'm doing this out 302 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: of need, Like it's kind of almost like, hey, this 303 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 1: is not just for my own fame, this is this 304 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: is there's a reason for this. Well, it's like she 305 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: was almost like her own PR person. She did her 306 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 1: own media training for herself, and she was like, I 307 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: know what I need to say to make sure that 308 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: I get people on my side, right, and I know 309 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: what I don't need to say, So I'm gonna not 310 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: say those things that I am gonna say those things, 311 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna do what I can to see if 312 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: I can get the support that I need from people 313 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: who I don't know. Unfortunately, that did not happen. Uh, 314 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: So we'll get to that when we get to the 315 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: story of her life. We have some more of our conversation, 316 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: but first we have a quick break for word from 317 00:16:43,800 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Continuing the 318 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: actual story itself of our nig It's about the mistreatment 319 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: of a quote mulatto woman um mixed, named Alfredo a 320 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: k a. Fredo in New England just before the Civil War, 321 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: and her mother in the story was Mag Smith, who 322 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: was a lower class white woman, and Mag married a 323 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: black man named Jim, who was part owner of a 324 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: cold delivery business, and the two of them have two 325 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: daughters together, and the older daughters, Fredo and Jim dies 326 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: a few years after the two of them are married. 327 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: Jim and Meg were married, so soon Mag marries another 328 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: black man and she abandons her children. And at that 329 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: point the Belmonts, which were a family of white middle 330 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: class farmers in Boston, take Alfredo in but they make 331 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: her work as this kind of indentured servant, and they 332 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: call her our nig They call her our nig um. 333 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: And so Miss Belmont and her daughter and Mary are 334 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: basically the like they abuse Fredo, and just like terrible people, 335 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: Um physically and psychologically abusive, and her living conditions are unhealthy, 336 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: Fredo's are, and the rest of the family is complicit 337 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: because they're basically they basically sit back and say nothing, 338 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: like they give her a little bit of egging on, 339 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: and they're supportive in a way, but they don't actually 340 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: do anything to help fredo situation. Right, one day, Ms 341 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: Belmont hits Fredo on the head for not bringing wood 342 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: back quickly enough, and so Fredo stands up for herself 343 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: and refuses to be beaten again. And she does get 344 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 1: a little bit of encouragement in that way from the 345 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 1: family who who tells her like, hey, you can set 346 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: up for yourself. Um, but there's only something y'all know 347 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 1: a lot about stories. There's only so much you can like, 348 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 1: so much you can give to the person who's like, hey, 349 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: you can stand up for yourself as like, well, Fredo 350 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: actually has to take the action of standing up for herself. 351 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,720 Speaker 1: So I'm not really gonna I mean, right, you've seen 352 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: so much abuse happened already, right Anyway, over the next 353 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: year of her servitude, Fredo is not threatened again with 354 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: that intensity of violence, and her servitude ends when she's eighteen. 355 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: So just think about how young she was when all 356 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: this is happening. She was a child when she was abandoned, 357 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: was still a child when she was a servant, and 358 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: was still a child when she was being abused. And 359 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: just imagine the amount of even in this fictional tale, 360 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: you know, thinking of that, it is also autobiographical, given Teke, 361 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: we don't know how exactly how much is taken and given, 362 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: but just that happens so young, like she's not You're 363 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: still not finished developing. This is your formative years. It's 364 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: when you're like developing life viewpoints and understandings of how 365 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 1: the world works. And she left at that point when 366 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 1: she had basically nothing, and she was in very poor health, 367 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 1: and and a Christian woman named Mrs Moore takes her 368 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: in and teaches her how to make straw hats, and 369 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: so she begins supporting herself. Fredo does with that skill. 370 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: But soon a guy walks into her life, a black 371 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: man named Samuel, and they get married and he makes 372 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: a living giving He makes a living giving speeches about 373 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: his life of enslavement that didn't happen, right, He's never 374 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: been to the South, and he does this de guard 375 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: to the support of abolitionists. So I mean, get it 376 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: how you live. I guess God play that game. Yeah, 377 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,640 Speaker 1: the marriage wasn't a good one and Fredo ended up 378 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: giving birth to a son at a poor house, and 379 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: Samuel shows up in her life and leaves again, and 380 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: eventually Fredo finds out that Samuel has died. So Fredo 381 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: is in poor health, is unable to support her child 382 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: on her own, so she has to put her child 383 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 1: in foster care. She starts writing her story in story, 384 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,959 Speaker 1: hoping that the story is successful enough to make her 385 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: money to take care of her child. Um so we 386 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: see the parallel already that's already been established, and that's 387 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: basically how the story ends. Her appeal to people saying, 388 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: hey help me. There's some symmetry there, Yes, a lot 389 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: of symmetry, at least I don't want to this kind 390 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: of I'm trying to think the oraborous, like the snake 391 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: eating the tail like because a lot of Yes, a 392 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: lot of symmetry, but it's like a lot of that 393 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: symmetry was pulled from the story itself to there there 394 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: are some facts that were about to dig into our 395 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: some inferences that we're about to dig into from that 396 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 1: have been learned and collected by scholars about her actual life. 397 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: So our net itself was unlike other slavery era stories 398 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 1: because it wasn't about Southern slaveholders just being the like 399 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: villains of the story and stead it was about northerners 400 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: who were abolitionists who were committing atrocities. And it went 401 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: mostly unnoticed after it was released, and it took over 402 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: a hundred years for it to come back into the 403 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: public sphere and to our recognition. But you know, there 404 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: are some ideas about why that may have happened. That 405 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: could be because it touched on polarizing things like interracial marriage. 406 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 1: It could be because it depicted the racism of northern 407 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: white folks, and it also could be because people thought 408 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: that Wilson was white before we found out that who 409 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: she was. And yeah, it's hard to tell the extent 410 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: to which the book was based on her life and 411 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: what she made up um, but it is widely considered 412 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: to be largely out of biographical. So onto Wilson's life itself. 413 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: Now that we've covered what the story is about and 414 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: brought strokes, so a lot of things have evolved retired 415 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: with us understanding more about her life and gathering more documents. Obviously, 416 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: as these things work. She was born Harriet E. Adams 417 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: in Milford, New Hampshire, in March of eight and she 418 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: was possibly born to a black man named Joshua Green 419 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: and a whitewasher woman named Margaret, and her nickname was Hattie. 420 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: After her father died and her mother abandoned her parala 421 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 1: with the story, when she was a child, she left. 422 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: She was left to become an indentured servant with Neamah 423 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: Hayward and the Hayward family. His wife was Rebecca Hutchinson, 424 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: and they came from uh pretty well off family with 425 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: abolitionists in it. She Harriet left the Haywards when she 426 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: was eighteen. Parallel with the story, she was in poor 427 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: health at that time and she started working for other 428 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: white families, and one woman taught her hat making skills. 429 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: And in eighteen fifty one she married a lecturer named 430 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: Thomas Wilson, who pretended it he was enslaved, what escaped 431 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: and in his lectures, in his speeches he decry the 432 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: horrors of slavery, but he told Harriet that hey, I 433 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: was never enslaved. Huh. They had a son, George Mason Wilson, 434 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: who was born in eighteen fifty two. He was born 435 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 1: on a poor farm in an unhealthy environment. Um. But 436 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: not long after that, Thomas left the family and Harriet 437 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 1: was still ill and impoverished, and so she left her 438 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: son with white foster parents and wrote to earn money, 439 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: and Thomas Wilson soon died at sea. He went off 440 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: to see and Harriet at that point likely traveled around 441 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,360 Speaker 1: Massachusetts and New Hampshire working as a seamstress, a servant, 442 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: or selling hair products. So she did have hair product 443 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: line when she came out with and she started writing 444 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: Our Nig for the same reasons, you know. She copyrighted 445 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:02,159 Speaker 1: Our Nig in August of eighteen fifty nine and it 446 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 1: was published by George C. Rand and Avery in Boston 447 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: the next month. So Harriet's son died of fever less 448 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: than six months after Our nick was released, when he 449 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: was only seven years old. And that was the thing 450 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: that happened, Like people died from fever back then, and 451 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: we already talked about the kind of conditions, you know, 452 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: they weren't living in the greatest conditions. So yeah, in 453 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: the early eighteen sixties, she likely worked as a servant 454 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: for some time and she became involved with the spiritualist movement, 455 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: which if you're not familiar with the spiritualist movement. UM. 456 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: And this is not for Annie, because I know Annie 457 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 1: knows all about spiritualist movement. I don't know about you, Samantha, 458 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: but I know I know anything too horror things. So 459 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: here you are too, though not on this level, but 460 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 1: lay up there. I just want to say that any 461 00:25:55,680 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: spiritualist listening, I don't always horror Oh yeah, yeah, I'm 462 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: just thinking like it comes up all those types of things. 463 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: It's in the realm of the things that you like, 464 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: are paying attention to. Yes, that is absolutely a fair 465 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: assessment because the movement was based on this belief that 466 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: there were spirits of the dead and that people could 467 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: communicate with spirits of the dead, and mediums were often 468 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: the people who could communicate with spirits of the dead. Um. 469 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: I know we've seen the black and white photos of 470 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: people around the table and heard about all the like 471 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 1: fake things that happened the people. Yeah, that was the 472 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: spiritualist movement. Um and she Harriet herself was described as 473 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: a medium in contemporary documents. She gave lectures, sometimes entranced 474 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: in those lectures in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Maine and Connecticut, 475 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: and that involvement in spiritualism continued for years and years. 476 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: For instance, she speaks at the fourth annual Spiritualist Camp 477 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 1: Meeting in Massachusetts. At one point she was also involved 478 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 1: in the formation of children's Progressive Lyceums, which were essentially 479 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: the Spiritualist version of Sunday Schools for children Oh Wow. 480 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: And throughout the eighteen seventies into the eight nineties she's 481 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: listed as a trance reader and a lecturer and worked 482 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: as a housekeeper at some point during that time. In 483 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: eighteen seventies, she married John Gallatin Robinson in Boston. So 484 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen hundreds she is described as a nurse at 485 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: the home of the Cobb family in Quincy, Massachusetts, and 486 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: that year. That same year, she dies in the hospital 487 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: in Quincy, and she died of what was listed as 488 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 1: in a nisition, which basically means exhaustion from lack of nourishment, 489 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: and she was buried in the Cobb family plot. So 490 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: that's not everything that we've deduced about her story from 491 00:27:54,680 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: documents and the novel, but that is a large overview 492 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: you of like her her story and honestly a lot 493 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: of what we know. So that is Yeah, that's it. 494 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: But the other part of this larger story that her 495 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 1: story is contained in is the disc or rediscovery or 496 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: uncovering or recovering or whatever you want to call it 497 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: of the novel itself. Our Nig itself was thought to 498 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,960 Speaker 1: be the work of a white author. But there was 499 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: the book that people thought was the first novel by 500 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: an African American woman before we found out about our 501 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: Nick was Iola Leroy or Shadows Uplifted, and that was 502 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: by Francis Ellen Watkins Harper, and that was released in 503 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: two which was much later than you know, we figured 504 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: out now Our Nick was written in the early nineteen eighties. 505 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: Historian and critic Henry Lewis Gates Jr. Which I'm sure 506 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: a lot of people are familiar with because he has 507 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: like very public facing historian and like does a lot 508 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: of research on history people, families, histories and lineages and 509 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: stuff like that. And he found a copy of it 510 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 1: in a bookstore, and he found evidence that the author 511 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 1: of the book was a black woman who lived in Milford, 512 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: New Hampshire before the Civil War. And so we're like, oh, 513 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: you know, this is upending things that we thought we 514 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: knew about this literary history and who was a part 515 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: of it, and so he and his colleagues, UM many people. 516 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: Gates wasn't the only one to start uncovering stuff about her. 517 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: And there was a scholar named Barbara A White who 518 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: also looked into community records UM in Milford to learn 519 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: more about Wilson's life. Those were publishing records. That was 520 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: since his information, and the depth certificate listed her son 521 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 1: as black, and that helped confirm that his mother, Harriet, 522 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: was a black woman and her authorship of the book itself. 523 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: And so night three Gates published a version of Our 524 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: Nick and that's kind of when it came back into 525 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: our site. So it came back into part of the 526 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: conversation we were having about who was part of the 527 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: early history of black authorship in the United States and 528 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: in America's um. Gates has called the book a complex 529 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: response to Uncle Tom's Cabin, and novelist and poet Alice 530 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: Walker has said of the discovery quote, I set up 531 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: most of the night reading and pondering the enormous significance 532 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 1: of Harriet Wilson's novel. Our nig it is is if 533 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 1: we've just discovered Phyllis Wheatley or Langston Hughes, who are 534 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: obviously other big names in the history of poetry and 535 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 1: the literary tradition in the US. And ever since then, 536 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: you know, she's it's been something a lot more UM 537 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: scholarship and conversation has been around and even in April 538 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 1: of two thousand three, the Harriet Wilson the Project was 539 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: formed in Milford, New Hampshire, which is a resource that 540 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 1: you can go to to, you know, learn what else 541 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 1: is out there about her, and it was formed to 542 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: raise awareness about her life and about her work and 543 00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: then organized local conversations and discussions of Wilson's work, and 544 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: they commissioned the creation of a memorial statue to her. 545 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 1: So yeah, that is a lot of what we know 546 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: about her life, and that is a little bit about 547 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: the context around the uncovering of the book and the 548 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: legacy of that is just how first of all, we're 549 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: always learning more about who did what right. So before 550 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: that we thought that a black woman didn't publish something 551 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: in English that is important part of this um in 552 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: English in the US before two I think it was, 553 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: and that's not the case. And it's just like that 554 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: kind of information is consistently coming out and we were 555 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 1: just learning about that in the early nineteen eighties. Leaves 556 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: for us to think about what else is uncovered. And 557 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: not only that, her work was also just so unlike 558 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: other stories that were being told in that realm at 559 00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: the time and was pretty bold and meaningful. I think 560 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: it's interesting that it was meaningful to her life like 561 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: so deeply because it was connected to financial hardship and 562 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: her own personal hardship and something that she needed to 563 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 1: do for herself. Um, I can only imagine what her 564 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: thought process was. I can't. I'm I'm not a spiritualist, 565 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: so right, I cannot communicate with the debt, but I 566 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: can only imagine that, like, she really needed to get 567 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: this story down on paper, even there was some other 568 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: sort of purpose behind it beyond just needing to take 569 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: care of her son, which was a big deal, but 570 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: it was she was telling a story that not many 571 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: other people as we know it today, we're telling it away. 572 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: She was framing it in a way that was original, 573 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: like saying, hey, people in the North do this too, 574 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: and is more powerful because because it was her story 575 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: and told through a vehicle of fictional like artistry. So 576 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: it's a really interesting legacy to me. Yeah, that is 577 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: the kind of intersection there of. I know a lot 578 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: of people when they think of artists, they think of 579 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: the traditional starving artists who moved to l a and 580 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: you know, does that all that thing? But there is 581 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: sometimes I think some people just feel like this need 582 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: I have to share this story. It's important, and also 583 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:33,680 Speaker 1: I have a financial need, and I have like a child, 584 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: and all those things coming together to give it just 585 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 1: just like a very important story that needed to be told, 586 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: and all of these things happened to coincide with that 587 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: and make it happen. Yeah, it does feel like a 588 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: conspiring doesn't it the best kind of conspiring, Like all 589 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: these things conspire to have Gates Fine, didn't bring it 590 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: back into our awareness and a long time, like a 591 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: hundred fifty years or that. That's a long time. But 592 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: at the same time, it's not too long because it happened. 593 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: You know, we got we got the opportunity to learn 594 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:16,400 Speaker 1: about her life because it took so long, because you know, 595 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: now we're sitting here and we're able to talk about 596 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: it because it was um that story of her life 597 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: and of her creation of the work was able to 598 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,439 Speaker 1: come back to our awareness. So it's definitely a good thing. 599 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: So we do have a little bit more for you, 600 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: but we're going to pause for one more quick break 601 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. I 602 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,560 Speaker 1: will bring up to which I tease earlier. Um, the 603 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: other person who published a novel around the same time, 604 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: and her name was Maria Fermina Deuce Hays, and she 605 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,479 Speaker 1: was a brazz billion woman of African descent. She wrote 606 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: the first novel by a Brazilian woman and the name 607 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: of that novel was Ursula. It depicted life under slavery 608 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,919 Speaker 1: in Brazil and it was also published like our nig 609 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: in eighteen fifty nine, and that work maybe the first 610 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: non autobiographical work of narrative fiction by a woman of 611 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: African descent in the America's super interesting because obviously this 612 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,879 Speaker 1: is about survival for her. None of this necessarily like, yes, 613 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: she has an outlet, and obviously she was very creative. 614 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:36,440 Speaker 1: And when you go from being just servitude to she 615 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: was she was a dressmaker that I read that at 616 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,240 Speaker 1: one point I think she might have been address maker 617 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: and then she was okay, so she was a dressmaker 618 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,280 Speaker 1: to actually writing a book, to becoming a medium slash 619 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 1: a spiritualist who taught children, and it was said that 620 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: she was teaching white children at that point in time, 621 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: which seemed to be significant. At that point, she is 622 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: a true survivor in the most creative ways that you 623 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:01,960 Speaker 1: could think about, that those are not things I would 624 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: have put together in one individual, you know what I mean. 625 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 1: And then also knowing that she wrote this book on 626 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 1: a scale of Okay, this is my story, I can't 627 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 1: say too loudly because people not might not respect if 628 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: they are too tragic, even though it's fairly tragic in 629 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 1: the book, and then talking about the fact that also 630 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: in her whole life there are actual abolitionists around her 631 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: if I read that correctly, and she's like, yeah, y'all 632 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 1: do it all these things to free the slaves. That's 633 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 1: great and all, but I'm in here suffering and no 634 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,879 Speaker 1: one really cares what's happening. I mean, yeah, it's it's 635 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: for perspective. It's like, there are a lot of different 636 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: types of oppression, right, um, and yeah, So while it's 637 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: just really interesting that she was pointing out how awful 638 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: it was and to be in the North at that time, 639 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,280 Speaker 1: it's like that that there was no clear division of 640 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: just because black people were in the North and they 641 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: were free, doesn't mean that were free from oppression and 642 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: so put simply and yeah, I just I agree with you. 643 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: Like her life, she was very resourceful, obviously very uh 644 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: persistent because there was a lot of hardship in her 645 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: life but also her life. And I try to do 646 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: this a lot when I think back about, especially about 647 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: black people or oppressed people's in general's lives, and when 648 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: I talk about them, not talking about them solely in 649 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 1: the way it was like their oppression or hardship defined 650 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 1: their stories, but it was a part of her story. 651 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: That's a big part of her story. That was that 652 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: really determined a lot of the ways in which she 653 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 1: had to move right, which is like writing his book. Um. 654 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's clear that she was 655 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: still able to have a love for life, she was 656 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: still able to participate in the spiritualist movement because it 657 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: probably wasn't something that was well, like, it wasn't a 658 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: thing she she lived for a while, which is great, 659 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 1: but like it was something that was clearly fulfilling for 660 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: her spiritually, um and emotional ali beyond just like being 661 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: a financial boone to Harlefe. Right, so I do. I 662 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: love to think about how skilled she had to be 663 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,240 Speaker 1: across so many different areas, but also how she still 664 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: made a room for self fulfillment. Right, Yeah. I think 665 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 1: that's super important too, that we don't remember people. It's 666 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: just like this one dimension. This is the thing. Um. 667 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 1: I was very fascinated with our Spiritualist stuff. I was like, 668 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,959 Speaker 1: what this thing? I was like, is this did someone 669 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: just make this up? Because it seems so out of 670 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: left fill to me that I was like, wait, what 671 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,280 Speaker 1: we just talked about it in our Winchester episode, because 672 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,760 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons she moved and built the houses, 673 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: because she went through her Spiritualist and she was like 674 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: the ghost of everybody that's died by the Winchester rifle. There, man, 675 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: at you again, history an accident that you gave to that. 676 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, spiritual but it was such a beautiful cinema 677 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 1: and it really because she's talking about doing creating candles 678 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 1: at all this for the children, and she was doing 679 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,959 Speaker 1: it for the children. I'm like, oh huh wow, Okay, 680 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: I wonder what the actually looks like in that nineteenth 681 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,920 Speaker 1: century to sit down and the thing I'm gonna teach 682 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: you about spiritualism in communicating with the dead, which, by 683 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: the way, yes, that is the beginning of a lot 684 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: of horror movies. I also want to say, it's really 685 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: funny to me, Annie, how careful you are of offending 686 00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: the spiritualists, because I don't really know. I mean, I 687 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: don't really know how many spiritualists are listening to this 688 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 1: episode right now. Everybody they could be listening from the 689 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: past will say they claim they claim her real hard 690 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 1: like I found some information on the sites, and they're 691 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,439 Speaker 1: claiming they love what she did, they had, they see 692 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,879 Speaker 1: her as a great part of their history at all. Yeah, maybe, yeah, 693 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: I just I find it funny because and he's definitely like, 694 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,839 Speaker 1: I don't want them coming after I do. I will 695 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: say that this is not a value judgment on what 696 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,839 Speaker 1: she did or what I thought. It's a spiritualist, if 697 00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: you know me personally, very into history, also very into 698 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:05,799 Speaker 1: um so usually into woo. So there's a room for 699 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 1: all of those things. And we're not judging anybody, now, 700 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: I kind of fascinating. Yeah, we're not judging. We're not 701 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:15,160 Speaker 1: judging the lovely Harriet E. Wilson for participating in those things. 702 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: Is just a part of our story that must be told, 703 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: and it's interesting part of our story. I think it's 704 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 1: a lovely part. Yeah, I think we forget at that 705 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,040 Speaker 1: time in spiritualism was really being after the Civil War 706 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: as well, because so many people died and people want 707 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 1: to find some kind of closure with their loved ones. 708 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 1: And I think we just forget that with all of 709 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: our kind of modern technology and understanding and figuring out 710 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: how things work. How frightening it must have been. I 711 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: often think about this with disease, when you just didn't 712 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: know what was causing things and you were trying to like, okay, 713 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: maybe it's that, maybe this thing and so it is. 714 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: Again context always important. Yeah, I guess I'd never really 715 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: put those two things together um that time frame, to 716 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: be honest, because I'm like historically, I'm just looking at 717 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: things a very historically and moving on and you see 718 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: events and move on. But yeah, I guess that's kind 719 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: of what happens. That makes sense because you need an answer, 720 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 1: you need to know why, what was the purpose. But 721 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,000 Speaker 1: at the same time, yeah, because it's also dramatized for 722 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: us now movie goers and and all of that, Yeah, 723 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 1: that's kind of like you do put it on a 724 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 1: separate realm of oh this is in movies and this 725 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:27,360 Speaker 1: isn't this so yeah, to see it in context to 726 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 1: actual person, I'm like, oh wow, oh wow, Okay, that's cool, 727 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,000 Speaker 1: like that's how this happened. Like I can look at 728 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: a specific instance understand how a person can move get 729 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 1: to that point. But yeah, and heard the exception of 730 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: that book. We're really really well written, like her dialogue. 731 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: There's the only I didn't. I did not read the book. 732 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: I'm not going to take claim to that, but I 733 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: definitely read parts of it, and I'm like, wow, she did. 734 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 1: She really put into a lot of thought of or 735 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: was able. She was just talented period, because I'm not 736 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: really good at dialogue in any general writing, but like 737 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: to have be able to read that and being like, yeah, 738 00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:03,640 Speaker 1: I can absolutely see that moment. She did a fantastic job. Yeah, 739 00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: really good at visualizing, creating images for people to try 740 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,759 Speaker 1: to understand and empathize, because I have to imagine that 741 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 1: empathy was a big part of this, as she was 742 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: trying to pull out of people because she wanted people 743 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 1: to help her. She wanted people to read the book 744 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:20,840 Speaker 1: in such an urgent way she wanted urgent reason right 745 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: and to write that book where she like the time 746 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,799 Speaker 1: in place she existed. Oh yeah, I'm like, well, I 747 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:29,520 Speaker 1: need a writing schedule. I'm going to get up at 748 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,040 Speaker 1: five thirty in the morning every day. She's like, I'm 749 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: working this, I'm going here, I'm doing this. I'm also 750 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 1: not in the greatest health, and I'm like writing mad 751 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,680 Speaker 1: book the whole time. And I'm like, I think I'll 752 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,759 Speaker 1: just sleep and stay in bed until six thirties a day, 753 00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:48,799 Speaker 1: well with all the obstacles of that time too, six 754 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:54,359 Speaker 1: thirty because that makes me feel bad. Okay, we need 755 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 1: to talk about that. To talk about that, it's like, wait, 756 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 1: what's happen? And I do think, um, one thing I 757 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: wanted to mention before we end. I do think like 758 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: the fact that it was rediscovered and uncovered is exciting 759 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: in some ways, in some ways sad in other ways, 760 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 1: is what I'm meaning to say. But we talked before 761 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:17,760 Speaker 1: about Wikipedia and how it's only I think sevent women, 762 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,880 Speaker 1: and that's that's like, no way is that true? No 763 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 1: way is that the case that only seven being percent 764 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,840 Speaker 1: of Wikipedia entries should be women of history? So I 765 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,319 Speaker 1: just a reminder that we don't know everything. There's a 766 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: lot of things that have been lost, but my there's 767 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: hope for them to be recovered. So I find that exciting. 768 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: And it can be you. It can be you anybody, yokstores, Yes, 769 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,880 Speaker 1: and um, I'm a big proponent of those edit a 770 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 1: thons with Wikipedia and specific um and if you live 771 00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: in most places have them. You can find a place 772 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: that does them. If that's something you're interested in but 773 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,760 Speaker 1: are a little tentative to do you by yourself, highly 774 00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: recommend get those women in Wikipedia. I love it. Yes, um, 775 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,760 Speaker 1: all right, well it was a pleasure, as always Eaves. 776 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: Where can the good listeners find you? Oh? All the 777 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: usual places. So at this day in history class, on Facebook, 778 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 1: Instagram and Twitter, and my name is Eves Jeff Coach 779 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:23,160 Speaker 1: again stuff all the time. I pause as if I 780 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,920 Speaker 1: don't know, I have to think about it. Sometimes she 781 00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:29,600 Speaker 1: was just a nunciating It was like cool cool, alright. 782 00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: So I get very many different things for my name, 783 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 1: So I get Jeff Coat sometimes and you can also 784 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 1: find me personally on Twitter at Eve Jeff Coat. Yeah, 785 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,920 Speaker 1: and that's it. Yeah, thank you, Yeah, and definitely go 786 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 1: check check all that stuff out. It's awesome. And if 787 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 1: you want to contact us, you can email us at 788 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,799 Speaker 1: Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You 789 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: can also find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast 790 00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: and on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks 791 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: it's always to our super producer and Howard, and thanks 792 00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 1: to you for listening Stuff mom Never Told You. He's 793 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,040 Speaker 1: a production of iHeart Radio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, 794 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,799 Speaker 1: visit iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 795 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:10,720 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.