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Speaker 1: My welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe M. Cormickin.

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Speaker 1: We're back with part two of our summer reading series

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Speaker 1: this year because, as we told you last time, we

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Speaker 1: ended up talking about our favorite books from this year,

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Speaker 1: and then we ended up just going for how long

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Speaker 1: do we talk? Like seventeen hours? It went on a while, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because what we were talking about the books, but we're

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Speaker 1: also talking about a lot of the ideas wrapped up

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Speaker 1: in them, and in doing so, discussing some of the

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Speaker 1: predominant themes of Stuff to Blow your Mind over the

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Speaker 1: past year. Yeah, so we decided we had to split

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Speaker 1: it into Here we are with part two. I think

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Speaker 1: last time we talked about nonfiction. This time we're probably

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about fiction. All right, let's jump right

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Speaker 1: back into the conversation. Okay, Robert, I think you had

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Speaker 1: a couple of fiction books you wanted to talk about, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and again these are both books that you may have

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Speaker 1: heard me discussed at least in passing before, Because again

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Speaker 1: I can't if I really like a work of fiction

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Speaker 1: and it's going to boil out in everything that I

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Speaker 1: do and until people were sick of hearing about it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And So the first book I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: is Starfish by Peter Watts. From so my fiction pick

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Speaker 1: last summer I think was Blindsite, but it was. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that was a book from two thousand and six. And

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Speaker 1: and I read that one as well because you were

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Speaker 1: talking about it. And uh, I think when you told

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Speaker 1: me I had space vampires in it, I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I have to read this now. It's definitely got the

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Speaker 1: best sci fi vampires of anything I've read. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: without it, without a doubt. So Peter Watts is a

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Speaker 1: He's a Canadian sci fi author and former marine mammal biologists. Uh. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've certainly talked about him on the show before, and

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Speaker 1: we've talked about Starfish as well. Um referenced in in

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Speaker 1: a few of our Underwater episodes earlier this year. This

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Speaker 1: is actually his first novel, uh and uh and I've

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Speaker 1: never read it before. I've been working on an underwater

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Speaker 1: sci fi podcast for How Stuff Works. And then I

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Speaker 1: realized that Watts had written something more or less in

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Speaker 1: the genre already. I thought, maybe I did. I think

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Speaker 1: may maybe he did. Yeah, And so when I realized

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Speaker 1: that it was that it was an underwater sci fi tail,

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Speaker 1: as like, well, I've got to I've got to jump

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Speaker 1: in and see what what Watts did with it. So

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Speaker 1: it is a just a very um addictive novel. Um.

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Speaker 1: So it it just to give a quick plot overview. Basically,

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Speaker 1: you have a crew of psychologically damaged people who undergo

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Speaker 1: cybernetic enhancement so that they can work on deep sea

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Speaker 1: geothermal plants in the near future. Uh. And they're and

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Speaker 1: they're doing this work, very dangerous work among some mysteriously

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Speaker 1: gigantic deep sea organisms near dangerous hydrothermal vents. And they're

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Speaker 1: also dealing with the uncertainty of their own psychology and

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Speaker 1: an emergent biological threat that everyone is totally unequipped to handle.

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Speaker 1: And that this thing is loaded with science, Like Watts

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Speaker 1: is an author who just really uh he really packs

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Speaker 1: a lot of scientific ideas. Sometimes it's more, you know,

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Speaker 1: scientific hypotheses, but he packs a lot in So this

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Speaker 1: particular book, for instance, is loaded with deep water biology, spreading,

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Speaker 1: zone tectonics, and geology, quantum theories of consciousness, AI, molecular evolution,

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Speaker 1: dream learning neuroplasticity as well as abuse and addiction psychology.

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Speaker 1: Now I wonder something about it because I haven't read

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Speaker 1: this yet. I became aware of it uh while back,

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Speaker 1: and I've I've been wanting to read it, but I

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Speaker 1: haven't gotten to it yet. So my question is are

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Speaker 1: there characters that can be loved? Because blind Side, it

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Speaker 1: was my fiction pick last year because of exactly what

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, is just packed with thought provoking ideas

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Speaker 1: and unique bits of world building. Um one of the

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Speaker 1: most interesting books I've ever read, so much so that

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Speaker 1: I almost had to like keep constantly putting it down

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Speaker 1: to like write down thoughts I was having about the

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Speaker 1: stuff in the book. But it was also a differ

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Speaker 1: book for several reasons, one of the main ones being

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Speaker 1: that like, the main character in in blind Side is

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Speaker 1: extremely unsympathetic. I mean that's by design since his character,

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Speaker 1: he's a character who essentially has no empathy due to

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Speaker 1: an experimental brain surgery. This actually played a role in

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Speaker 1: the plot and made for a very interesting narrator, but

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Speaker 1: not a very sympathetic or lovable one. So does Watts

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Speaker 1: throw us more of a bone in this story? As

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Speaker 1: as far as like character as you can fall in

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Speaker 1: love with. Well, I would say yes and no, because

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Speaker 1: on one level, you do see that that same trend

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Speaker 1: of of a lot of characters that are damaged or

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Speaker 1: less human, perhaps in different ways, either due to something

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Speaker 1: that has been done to them or something that they

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Speaker 1: have voluntarily done through technological enhancement. But I would say

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Speaker 1: that the protagonist Lenny Clark, she you do root for,

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Speaker 1: perhaps more than some of the characters in blind Side,

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Speaker 1: like she's she's a very damaged individual with and she's

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Speaker 1: essentially transhuman at this point to the cybernetic enhancements and

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Speaker 1: some other stuff. But in Starfish you are rooting for

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Speaker 1: there is she is kind of an underdog, and I

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Speaker 1: think that is one of the things that that pulled

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Speaker 1: me in with Starfish, probably more than Blindside, is that

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Speaker 1: I wanted I wanted her to succeed or to survive

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Speaker 1: at the very least. Well, I'm going to read a

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Speaker 1: quick passage from the book here just to get everyone

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Speaker 1: a taste of some of the some of the biological

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Speaker 1: uh science that is invoked in Let's Hear It. And

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Speaker 1: in this we were following Lenny Clark as she is

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Speaker 1: out swimming in the deep dark ocean quote. Everywhere else,

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Speaker 1: living constellations punctuate the dark. Here, a string of pearls

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Speaker 1: blink sexual advertisements at two second intervals. Here, a sudden

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Speaker 1: flash leaves diversionary afterimages swarming across Clark's field of view.

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Speaker 1: Something flees undercover her momentary blindness. They're a counterfeit worm,

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Speaker 1: twist lazily in the current, invisibly tied to the roof

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Speaker 1: of some predatory mouth. There are so many of them.

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Speaker 1: She feels a sudden surge in the water, as if

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Speaker 1: something big is just passed very close. A delicious thrill

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Speaker 1: dances through her body. It nearly touched me, she thinks,

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Speaker 1: I wonder what it was. The rift is full of

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Speaker 1: monsters who don't know when to quit. It doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: how much they eat. Their vorocity is as much a

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Speaker 1: part of them as their elastic bellies, their unhinging jaws.

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Speaker 1: Ravenous dwarves attack giants twice their own size. And sometimes,

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Speaker 1: when the abyss is a desert, no one can afford

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Speaker 1: the luxury of waiting for better odds. But even a

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Speaker 1: desert has oasis, and sometimes the deep hunters find them.

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Speaker 1: They come upon the malnourishing abundance of the rift and

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Speaker 1: gorge themselves. Their descendants grow huge and bloated over such

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Speaker 1: delicate bones. My light was off and it left me alone,

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Speaker 1: I wonder. She turns it back on, her vision cloud

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Speaker 1: in the sudden glare, then clears. The ocean reverts to

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Speaker 1: unrevealed black. No nightmares accost her. The beam lights empty

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Speaker 1: water wherever she points it. She switches it off. There's

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Speaker 1: a moment of absolute darkness while her eye caps adjust

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Speaker 1: to the reduced light. Then the stars come out again.

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Speaker 1: They're so beautiful. Lenny Clark rests on the bottom of

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Speaker 1: the ocean and watches the abyss sparkle around her, and

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Speaker 1: she almost laughs as she realizes, three thousand meters from

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Speaker 1: the nearest sunlight that is only dark when the lights

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Speaker 1: are on. That's great, man. Well, you know what it

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Speaker 1: reminds me of Blindside. It reminds me of sort of

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Speaker 1: the richness of like the the sci fi horror atmosphere

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Speaker 1: that that Watts can create. Um, his his worlds are

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Speaker 1: so rich. Yeah, and this book really you can you

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Speaker 1: get a taste of it here. Like he is an

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Speaker 1: author that clearly was Slash is in love with the

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Speaker 1: biology of the deep ocean. And even though this is

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Speaker 1: a slightly you know, there's some sci fi elements invoked here. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it is a it resonates with a love for the

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Speaker 1: the natural wonders of the deep. Robert, I know you

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Speaker 1: were a fan of the recent games Soma, which you

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Speaker 1: recommended to me. Do you think that maybe Starfish was

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Speaker 1: an influence on Soma? I bet it was. Um. Again,

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Speaker 1: I didn't I didn't even know Starfish existed until uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, earlier this year really, but uh, but afterwards

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Speaker 1: I started looking into it. I read somewhere that the

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Speaker 1: the makers of the Bioshot games were also inspired by

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Speaker 1: by Starfish, so that would make sense. So I think

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Speaker 1: it has been highly influent influential in I mean, if

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine making some sort of underwater sci fi

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Speaker 1: horror at this point without of course being familiar with

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Speaker 1: the Abyssum, the James Cameron film, Yeah, Deep Start six, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and at least finding out about Starfish and and realizing

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Speaker 1: that it is an important to to to read in reference.

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Speaker 1: All Right, if somebody were to make a Starfish movie,

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Speaker 1: what director should it be? Oh? I don't know. You

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Speaker 1: gotta have who's the most nihilistic director not there right now,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe I guess does Nolan count he's

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Speaker 1: he has some nihilistic he's nihilistic, Well, no, but there's

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Speaker 1: a there is a borderline sentimental. Okay, he's but in

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Speaker 1: terms of I guess I'm thinking about the visual universe

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Speaker 1: he tends to create. I feel like his his visual

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Speaker 1: world is nihilistic, even if even if there's hope everywhere else,

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Speaker 1: a lot of slate grays and stuff like that. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. So for some reason he comes to mind

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Speaker 1: um and also his it's it's so humorless, you know.

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Speaker 1: I tend to find that Nolan's uh movies are they're

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Speaker 1: they're not very fun. Usually I find that there. I

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Speaker 1: find they are not fun and they are not certainly

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Speaker 1: not funny. They're satisfying, they're they're they're beautiful, they're they're

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Speaker 1: they're excellent films. Uh, but but you don't enjoy them.

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Speaker 1: I enjoy them, but I don't enjoy them in the

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Speaker 1: same way I enjoy other things. I don't know. For

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Speaker 1: some reason, I'm thinking, I think Christopher Nolan might be

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Speaker 1: the night be might be the director to to helm

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Speaker 1: something like this Okay, it's time to take a quick

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Speaker 1: break and then we'll be back with more summer reading.

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Speaker 1: Thank alright, we're back. All right. Well, I'm gonna go

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Speaker 1: ahead and hit my my final fiction uh selection for

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Speaker 1: this year's summer reading. And this is one again that

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Speaker 1: that if you have been listening religiously to the show

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Speaker 1: or and certainly if you've if you read it, take

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Speaker 1: pay attention to our social media. You've probably heard or

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Speaker 1: seen me mention it before. But it is a two

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Speaker 1: thousand nine novel by Terence Hawkins titled The Rage of Achilles.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, tell me about it? Okay, Well, Terence Hawkins

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Speaker 1: he's the author of two books in various short stories.

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Speaker 1: He was founding director of the Yale Writer's Conference, and

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Speaker 1: he now runs the Company of Writers, which offers workshop

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Speaker 1: and manuscript service to writers at all levels of experience.

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Speaker 1: And incidentally, he also chimes in from time to time

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Speaker 1: on our Facebook group the Stuff to Build Your Mind

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Speaker 1: discussion module with with commentary and literary recommendations. But the

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Speaker 1: Rage of Achilles, this this is a novel, and it's

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Speaker 1: essentially a novelization of Homer's The Iliad, retold with modern

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Speaker 1: language and invoking Julian Janes the Origin of consciousness in

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Speaker 1: the Breakdown of the bicameral Mind. Okay, so, if your

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Speaker 1: recall from our Bicameral Mind episodes, the Iliad was one

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Speaker 1: of the pieces of evidence in literature from the ancient

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Speaker 1: world that Jane's uses to show. Basically, he uses it

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Speaker 1: to argue that people at this time, First of all,

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Speaker 1: two main premises were not conscious and did not have

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Speaker 1: an inner mind space. And number two, they had novel

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Speaker 1: activities directed by hallucinations that they believed to be the

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Speaker 1: voices of God's And so he basically he determines that

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Speaker 1: this is the case for the people who produced the

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Speaker 1: Iliad because he looks at the Iliad and he says,

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Speaker 1: there's very little consciousness in the Iliad. You don't get

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Speaker 1: people reflecting internal mind states. Instead, when people do things,

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Speaker 1: it says that God made them do it. Yes. And

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Speaker 1: I want to be clear here, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: make it sound as if Hawkins wrote a novel that

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Speaker 1: serves as a teaching tool for the bicameral mind. I

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Speaker 1: think rather Hawkins uses um uses the bicameral mind as

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Speaker 1: a means of understanding a lot of the decision making

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Speaker 1: and divine inspiration that takes place in the story of

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Speaker 1: the Iliad uh and It's and Also, to be clear,

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Speaker 1: it's not an epic retelling of the Trojan War. It

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Speaker 1: is just the Iliad itself, which only occupies a portion

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Speaker 1: of the Trojan War. So this is definitely a book

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Speaker 1: for mature readers. Hawkins doesn't shy away from the violent slavery, misogyny,

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Speaker 1: and sexual violence inherent in the in the culture at

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Speaker 1: the time. It's not ancient Greeks for great book, No

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Speaker 1: no uh and and and all of it is also

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Speaker 1: revealed again through very modern language. The characters speak to

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Speaker 1: each other like they are modern humans, even if they

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Speaker 1: in many of the cases do not have modern minds. Because,

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Speaker 1: especially through the eyes of Odysseus, the reader is is

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Speaker 1: forced to come to terms with the familiar yet alien

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Speaker 1: nature of this kind of ancient world. So the book

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Speaker 1: is grim, it's dark, it's violent, but not in a

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Speaker 1: way that betrays its historical and literary roots. So that

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Speaker 1: the book I found does a fantastic job of depicting

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Speaker 1: what it might have been like to exist as a

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Speaker 1: bicameral human and what it might have been like to

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Speaker 1: live among them as a more modern human with a

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Speaker 1: awoken consciousness. So the vast majority of the characters in

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Speaker 1: the Rage of Achilles are highly susceptible to bicameral hallucinations.

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Speaker 1: Odesseus says, our main window into modern consciousness, along with

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Speaker 1: the Trojan Prince Paris, and when faced with pressing challenges

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Speaker 1: or cognitive dissonance, the gods speak to these these people,

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Speaker 1: to the bicameral characters, and even manifest visual the So

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Speaker 1: in keeping with Jane's theory, these these hallucinations are produced

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Speaker 1: by the of course, the non dominant hemisphere, and perceived

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Speaker 1: by the dominant voices within the mind wrapped within the

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Speaker 1: trappings of an outer pantheon, and the hallucinations range from

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Speaker 1: helpful to chaotic. For instance, the Achaean king Agamemnon experiences

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Speaker 1: his desire to claim achilles slave Brescius as a divine command,

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Speaker 1: and this endangers the entire siege, but it also but

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Speaker 1: he also rallies his men when Zeus speaks through him.

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Speaker 1: And then we have Achilles himself, who turns to buy

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Speaker 1: cameral visions of his mother for guidance. His mother, of course,

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Speaker 1: to the mythical fetis. And yet the very act of

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Speaker 1: locking eyes with a horse on the battlefield threatens to

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Speaker 1: transform into a chaotic hallucination. For Achilles Hawkins is a

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Speaker 1: is A is a great writer, and he has there's

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Speaker 1: so many passages in this book that really capture this

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Speaker 1: uh far better than than I can summarize. H For instance,

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Speaker 1: there's a part where Agamemnon speaking to Odysseus after Odysseus

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Speaker 1: has has presented some ideas, and he says, do you

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Speaker 1: ever have any thoughts of your own? Or is it

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Speaker 1: always gray eyed athena um talking in there um? The

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Speaker 1: the idea that like any kind of inspiration, any kind

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Speaker 1: of like I guess you would say, sort of. You know,

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Speaker 1: major moments in cognition, they are not your own. They

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Speaker 1: must be the God speaking through you. And indeed those

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Speaker 1: with a bicamraal mind would be would be perceiving it

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Speaker 1: as such. It's a wonderful exploration of the concept. And

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Speaker 1: I love the idea of novels based on the idea

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Speaker 1: of the bicameral mind, because that that satisfies both of

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Speaker 1: my impulses. On one hand, I don't believe it's a

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Speaker 1: correct interpretation of history. I don't believe it's a correct

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Speaker 1: explanation of what consciousness is or what past human consciousness

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Speaker 1: was like. On the other hand, I think it's such

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Speaker 1: an interesting idea to explore, and so fiction seems like

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Speaker 1: a perfect realm for it, Like you don't necessarily have

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Speaker 1: to believe it was ever true, but you could explore

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Speaker 1: it as a sort of alternative reality. Yeah, I would

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Speaker 1: love to read more that that that used the bi

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Speaker 1: cameral mind is a way of of making sense of

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Speaker 1: of the magical and the divine. Uh. Here's here's another

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Speaker 1: wonderful passage from the book. No one will speak to Achilles.

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Speaker 1: No one in his right mind would. All day he

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Speaker 1: has sat at the foot of Patroclus's unlit pire. The

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Speaker 1: only company he will tolerate is that of the priests

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Speaker 1: who flank it, droning away in the language that the

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Speaker 1: Achaeans spoke when their minds first awakened in the north,

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Speaker 1: when the ice rivers were still fresh memories to their grandfathers,

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Speaker 1: whose own grandfathers had been no more than puppets in

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Speaker 1: the hands of the gods, hunting and breeding with no

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Speaker 1: more consciousness of purpose than the animals they slaughtered. So again,

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Speaker 1: this captures a time when the bicameral mind would be

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Speaker 1: giving way to the modern mind, and you would be

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Speaker 1: in this this chaotic, uh realm between where you have

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Speaker 1: you have more and more modern thought. But then you

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Speaker 1: have these bicameral visions and these bicameral experiences. And then

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Speaker 1: a few few people such as Odysseus in this novel,

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Speaker 1: who do not know what it is to have a

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Speaker 1: bicameral vision and just exists outside of it, just have

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Speaker 1: to nod along when everyone else is talking about what

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Speaker 1: the gods told them today. Yeah, I've got to give

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Speaker 1: this one to read. I recommend it. Uh. Now, there

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Speaker 1: is another book by Terence Hawkins I want to mention briefly,

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Speaker 1: and it's a titled American Neolithic. Came out in fourteen.

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Speaker 1: It's a near future dystopian novel in which a tribe

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Speaker 1: of Neanderthals have survived into the modern world, and it

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Speaker 1: features some really thought provoking depictions of how this might work,

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Speaker 1: how Neandertal biology and cognition um I would differ from ours,

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Speaker 1: and how their eradication factors into human culture. Uh So

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Speaker 1: I have to read. Uh one one of my favorite

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Speaker 1: passages from this and this is told by the protagonist

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Speaker 1: who is in Neandertal, who has survived into modern times.

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Speaker 1: Quote you, for whom we have always been the other existence,

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Speaker 1: buried deep in your racial memories, since the time when

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Speaker 1: glaciers girdled the world and the contest between man and

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Speaker 1: animal was yet to be decided. We haunt your legends

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Speaker 1: as we hunt your dreams, misshapen versions of yourself, bad

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Speaker 1: copies formally Cobalds or Grimlin's now more locks and orcs. Oh,

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Speaker 1: that's creepy. So the idea that we we've got all

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Speaker 1: these humanoid monsters in our fiction, and that this is

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Speaker 1: coming from deep instincts we have about about other types

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Speaker 1: of human shaped creatures that very close relatives of ours

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Speaker 1: that existed, you know, a few as recently as several

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Speaker 1: thousand years ago. Yeah, yeah, there was there was another.

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Speaker 1: There was this this slightly inhuman other that we that

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Speaker 1: we wiped from the earth, and we keep recreating them

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Speaker 1: in uh, in all of these fantastic forms. It's it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a wonderful of poetic idea like it, though,

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Speaker 1: I I also like the idea that it implies, like

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Speaker 1: Homo sapiens, like us, we were maybe the bad guys actually,

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Speaker 1: like we demonize them, but we do so unfairly, like

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Speaker 1: we were really the aggressive main ones that wiped them out. Yeah. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is an idea that is explored in a book

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Speaker 1: that we haven't read yet, but we've both discussed reading.

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Speaker 1: Um uh, what what is the title? The Descendants The

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Speaker 1: Inheritor The Inheritors? Yes, by William Golding, the author of

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Speaker 1: Lord of the Flies. Oh yeah, and I've actually read

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Speaker 1: like the first chapter of it, and I'm very intrigued

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Speaker 1: to pick it up again later because it is the

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Speaker 1: story of Neanderthal annihilation from the point of view of

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Speaker 1: the Neanderthals. Man humans like us can be scary. We're

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Speaker 1: the worst. All right, Well, it looks like it's time

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Speaker 1: for me to talk about some fiction, now, Robert, last

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Speaker 1: time you got to pick a classic, you picked Carl

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Speaker 1: Sagan's classic nonfiction work. So I'm gonna pick a classic

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Speaker 1: work of fiction that I just read for the first time. Okay,

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Speaker 1: what do you have? This is The Haunting of Hill

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Speaker 1: House by Shirley Jackson nine. It is a Gothic horror

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Speaker 1: novel first published in fifty nine, with the most classic

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Speaker 1: of han a house setups. Right, So, you've got a

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Speaker 1: haunted house, it's got a malevolent ghostly presence reported over

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Speaker 1: the generations, it's got tragic history. And then there's a

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Speaker 1: kind of stuffy professor who's interested in the paranormal, and

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Speaker 1: he hires several psychically sensitive people to come live in

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Speaker 1: the house with them and study the hauntings that occur there. Now,

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Speaker 1: this has been made into a couple of movies, and

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Speaker 1: believe it or not, I've actually not seen either one

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Speaker 1: of them, or there there at least two. There might

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Speaker 1: be more. There's one supposedly terrible adaptation from that I

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Speaker 1: haven't seen, with Liam Neeson, Catherine's Aida Jones, and Owen Wilson,

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Speaker 1: directed by the guy who made Speed Twister and Speed

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Speaker 1: two Cruise Control. Oh. I actually saw this one, but

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Speaker 1: I can't remember a single thing about except I think

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Speaker 1: it's like a beheading scene or something that's not in

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Speaker 1: the book. Um. I've heard it is radically different from

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Speaker 1: the book, but I haven't seen that. I kind of

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Speaker 1: want to watch it maybe this weekend. It's time for

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Speaker 1: some some trash ghost movies. Uh. There's also supposedly a

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Speaker 1: movie version from the sixties that is better, but I

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Speaker 1: haven't seen either one. But if you've never read this

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Speaker 1: book and you're in the mood for a good old

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Speaker 1: fashioned haunted house story, this is a really fabulous read.

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Speaker 1: It's that kind of mid century New Yorker style of

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Speaker 1: prose writing. So it's thoughtful, really funny actually, but also reserved,

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Speaker 1: and um, I have to admit, for me, at least

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Speaker 1: genuinely scary. At least I thought so maybe you'll write

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Speaker 1: in so I didn't think it was scary. You know,

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Speaker 1: you're you're a cry baby. But I thought it was scary.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not alone. Stephen King wrote an introduction to

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Speaker 1: the book in which he wrote that quote. It seems

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Speaker 1: to me that the Haunting of Hill House and Henry

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Speaker 1: James Is The Turn of the Screw are the only

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Speaker 1: two great novels of the supernatural in the last hundred years. Interesting.

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Speaker 1: It's a bold pronouncement. But you know, I do agree

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Speaker 1: that when a when a ghost story is done well,

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Speaker 1: it can be so terrifying. A ghost story, though, is

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Speaker 1: is like a lot of things in art, is typically

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Speaker 1: not done well. Uh yeah, you're right about that, and

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Speaker 1: and it is genuinely horrifying. And I think it's interesting

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Speaker 1: that can be genuinely horrifying two people like us who

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Speaker 1: are horror fans and who are largely desensitized to the

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Speaker 1: most piercing aspects of horror like I think I may

398
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Speaker 1: have contemplated this on the podcast before, but I just

399
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Speaker 1: want to bring it up again because this is such

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Speaker 1: a perplexing question to me. Why are ghosts the scariest

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Speaker 1: of all monsters? I feel like this must be measurably

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00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,399
Speaker 1: true because I'm you know, we're both horror fans. I've

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Speaker 1: asked a lot of my friends who are horror fans

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Speaker 1: about this. We've had this conversation a bunch of times.

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Speaker 1: Once you're used to horror books and horror movies, vampires, werewolves,

406
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Speaker 1: hell beasts. They're great, They're great fun. We love them,

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Speaker 1: but they're not really scary anymore, are they. I mean,

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Speaker 1: do you find yourself really worrying at night in the

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Speaker 1: dark about vampires or anything like that? I I certainly don't.

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Speaker 1: Now the ghost I think one of the reasons it

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Speaker 1: can be so so effective is that it's something that

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Speaker 1: really doesn't have to obey the rules. I mean, yes,

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00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 1: you can get into you do have treatments of it

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Speaker 1: that have a lot of rules and throw in some

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00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,159
Speaker 1: ghost fighting, pseudoscience and some proton packs and you have

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Speaker 1: a different situation. But I feel like the best, the

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Speaker 1: most effective ghost stories are the ones in which the

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Speaker 1: protagonists are the protagonist are totally out of their element

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Speaker 1: and do not know how to deal with the threat.

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Speaker 1: I think that's one of the reasons that UH that

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Speaker 1: the at least the initial incarnations of the Ring movies,

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Speaker 1: both the original Japanese and the and and I would

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Speaker 1: also classify the original UH English language remake. They both

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00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: succeed in presenting a supernatural threat that does not seem

425
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 1: to obey law. I mean, it oldbys certain laws, but

426
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 1: but once you've you've awakened it, there's no stopping I think.

427
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: I think there's something about that. Yeah, the ghost in

428
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: the Ring is terrifying to me in a way, I

429
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: mean less so now that I'm so used to it,

430
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 1: like it's kind of a joke. That was the other

431
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: great thing about it is that it felt so fresh

432
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: at the time. Yes, when I first encountered it, it

433
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 1: was truly terrifying to me. And I think part of

434
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 1: it has to do with it it's non corporate reality,

435
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: like that it doesn't have a specific body that's bound

436
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,600
Speaker 1: to a place. You know that it can kind of

437
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 1: appear anywhere. Um, as soon as you give a monster

438
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 1: a body. I mean, I love monster designs, all those

439
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: those beast designs are great, but it immediately becomes a

440
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: thing that's like, Okay, I could run from this, I

441
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: could fight this with a ghost. It. In fact, with

442
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,959
Speaker 1: ghosts in most stories, ghosts are not even really a

443
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 1: physical threat. They're not gonna grab you and bite you

444
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 1: and tear you asunder and harm harm your physical body.

445
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: They attack your mind. But as far as I know,

446
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: here's one aspect of hauntings that's never really explored, and

447
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: that is that the idea that a ghost could lower

448
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: your rent. Well, I know that that it would you know,

449
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: reduce your property taxes or something to that effect. Like

450
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: this seems like prime territory for exploitation. With with with

451
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,440
Speaker 1: with haunting fiction, uh, the idea that the presence of

452
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: the ghost would actually make the the haunted location more

453
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: desirable to individuals willing to put up with it. Wait

454
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 1: a minute, is this is not part of the plot

455
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: of The Frighteners, is it? I don't know, I've never

456
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: seen The Frighteners. Uh, I haven't seen it in a

457
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,800
Speaker 1: long time. I'm vaguely recalling something like this, like a buddy.

458
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: Oh maybe maybe he's just like, uh, there's a human

459
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: character who's got ghost buddies and he uses them for

460
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 1: hauntings and then maybe he charges for exorcisms. I think

461
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 1: maybe that's what it is. But it struck me in

462
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: the in the moment that there could be some kind

463
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: of real estate scam where you like, you know, you

464
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,159
Speaker 1: rent out of property and then you get your ghost

465
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: buddies to haunt it and so you can get your

466
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 1: rent lowered. Yeah, if only ghosts actually existed and we're

467
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: you know, verifiable through science. Yeah. So there is, of

468
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: course the fact that ghosts don't exist, but there are

469
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 1: some great insights about our psychology. I think we can

470
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: gain from thinking about why ghosts are so particularly terrifying.

471
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 1: So one example that I want to talk about briefly,

472
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: the e book version of Haunting of Hillhouse that I have,

473
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,719
Speaker 1: has an introduction by Guiermo del Toro, and so he

474
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: writes about the way that the horror and the story

475
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: comes from the way the house itself in the book

476
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: behaves like a predator in the wild. And he also

477
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 1: points out how the novel praise on our ancestral fears

478
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 1: of being alone, being separated from the herd. He writes,

479
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 1: calling it quote a fascinating piece of nature documentary. Hill

480
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: House is the lion pouncing in slow motion on the smallest,

481
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: weakest gazelle in the herd. And he's talking about a

482
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: particular character who the House praise on in the book.

483
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: But then he points out how the book accentuates the

484
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: terror by driving home that our vulnerability and being alone

485
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: isn't just present when we're physically alone, because we're always

486
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: alone with in our own minds, and the very fact

487
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 1: that you can't share your consciousness with other people means

488
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: that we're always subjectively separated from the herd, no matter what,

489
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: vulnerable to the predations of ghosts. Interesting. Yeah, I like

490
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: this treatment of the of the ghost, the haunting, the

491
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: poulter Geist as a predatory force because we do see this.

492
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: I feel like what this motif is U is used

493
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: well and some of our best haunting fiction. You know

494
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: that it's not just the ghost is just trying to,

495
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: you know, warn you about the perils of not believing

496
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: in Christmas or what have you. Like that it is

497
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: it is a nasty customer that just wants to hurt you.

498
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: So what you say, I mean just bringing up the

499
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: ghosts in Christmas Carol. I mean that does play on

500
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: another big part of the ghost law, right, which is

501
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: that ghosts are very often on a mission. They're concerned

502
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: with something in some way. They want to teach you

503
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 1: a lesson, or get you to do something for them,

504
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 1: or get you to you know, avenge some wrong on

505
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: their behalf or something like that. So many stories in

506
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: this way. Um. I don't want to spoil anything about

507
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: the Haunting of Hillhouse, but it's a great kind of

508
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: reprieve from a lot of the corny plot wrap ups

509
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: that you often see in ghost stories. Nice. Well, you know,

510
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: I've never read it. It's it's it's been on my

511
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: list for a very long time. So maybe this Halloween

512
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: it you should read it this October, Robert, I would

513
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 1: love to see what you think. Uh, you know, speaking

514
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: of October, I believe it was last October we had

515
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: an episode of Stuff to Play in Mind come Out.

516
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,959
Speaker 1: This is what I did with Christian where we we

517
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: took various ghost stories from around the world and tried

518
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: to get break them down and figure out like what

519
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: what do they reveal? These individual stories reveal about the

520
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: human condition or you know, cultural elements. Uh. And it

521
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: was a pretty fun exercise. So I feel like it's

522
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 1: possible that we could we could we could bring that

523
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: model back out again this October and and see what

524
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: we could find. You know, maybe, I think I think

525
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: last last time, most of the ghosts ended up revealing

526
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: something kind of horrible about colonialism. Um, maybe we could

527
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 1: find some examples of of ghost lore that reveal more

528
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: about human psychology. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean the ghost

529
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: archetype is kind of a master key to the lock

530
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: on the human mind, where you open it up and

531
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: rummage around with all the on all the images and

532
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: fears we've got in there. It's sort of like a

533
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 1: perfect cipher for for what's deep down in there suppressed.

534
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: How about the film Ghost Shark? Does Does that exist?

535
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 1: It does exist? I haven't yet. I gotta see it

536
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: does exist. That's good. Now does it still eat people

537
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: even though it's a ghost? I don't know. Maybe it

538
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: eats your ghost. Maybe it has to work with another shark,

539
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: like real shark eats you, and then ghost shark eats

540
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: your ghost. That's what I'm hoping for. Maybe I'll also

541
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 1: find out about this this Halloween. I don't know how.

542
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: How does a ghost shark attack your mind? It doesn't

543
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: seem with teeth teth. Well that's a good attack. Also,

544
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: while I'm talking about ghosts and horror, I just wanted

545
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 1: to mention another book that is. It's not on the

546
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: list because I haven't finished reading it yet, but I

547
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: love it so far. It's a book of horror short

548
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: stories I've been reading for a while now called After

549
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: the People Lights Have Gone Off from fourteen by the

550
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: author Stephen Graham Jones was a great horror writer that uh,

551
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: I've just been getting into recently, and I really enjoy

552
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: some of the stories in there. Yeah, I'm very excited

553
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: to check out some of his fiction at some point

554
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 1: as well. Um, especially his tales that speak to the

555
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: Native American experience. Oh yes, some of the stories do

556
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: deal with those themes. One of my favorites in the

557
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: collection that I've read so far as a short story

558
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 1: called Brush Dogs, which is I believe set on the

559
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: on a Blackfeet reservation in Montana, and it's a great story.

560
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: It's really haunting. Deals again with I don't want to

561
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: say explicitly with ghosts, but it's got a very ghostly

562
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: aura about it. Alright, Well, on that note, we're going

563
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: to take a break, but then we'll be right back.

564
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: Thank alright, we're back. Well. This leads us to the

565
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,959
Speaker 1: final selection for today's episode. In this one, it is yours, Joe. Alright,

566
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: My final pick for this year is a fiction book,

567
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: and it is The Three Body Problem by Sit Cheen

568
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: Lieu or I guess actually would be inverted in the

569
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: Chinese Blue Ching. Oh, this is a great one. I've

570
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 1: read this one as well. Yeah, and so this is

571
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: I'm sorry if I didn't pronounce his name perfectly. I

572
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,959
Speaker 1: know my Chinese pronunciation is not great. But so this

573
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: one was first published in Chinese around ten years ago,

574
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:30,239
Speaker 1: published in an English translation by Ken liu In. And

575
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 1: I saved this one for last because I struggled to

576
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: decide whether or not to include it, specifically for the

577
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: reason that so much of the pleasure of this novel

578
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: is the slow gradual revelation and development of its themes

579
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: and what's going on in the plot. And thus it's

580
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: kind of, unfortunately one of those books that's just chock

581
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: full of stuff to talk about but in talking about

582
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: it with somebody who hasn't read it, you inevitably kind

583
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: of spoil or at least undercut a few wonderful surprises

584
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: of the plot. So for this entry, I want to

585
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: talk about what I love about the book generally. Then

586
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: I'll give a warning before we discuss a few more

587
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 1: specific things. So listeners who haven't read the book plan

588
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: on reading it and want it to be a complete

589
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: surprise to them can hop out if they need to.

590
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: But I'm not doing that just yet. So first of all,

591
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: I want to say that this is my favorite kind

592
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: of science fiction book in that it's one that deals

593
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: not just with the future or with technology futuristic technology,

594
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: but with scientific concepts themselves, and makes the problems of

595
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: scientific discovery crucial to the advancement of the plot. So

596
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: the science is not near mcguffin, it's not mere like

597
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: plot element. It is. It is part of the backbone

598
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: of the entire work right in a way. It's about

599
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 1: science um and so it won't spoil much to say

600
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 1: this because it's there in the title. The book deals

601
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 1: with themes like predictability, unpredictability, and chaos, and so there's

602
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: this idea of the three body problem in physics. That's

603
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: what's referenced in the title. It's a classic problem that

604
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 1: goes something like this. Let's say you have two objects

605
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: interacting with one another in space, and you know Newton's

606
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: laws of mechanics, and you know the starting position of

607
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: the two objects, you know their velocities, and you know

608
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: their mass. If you know all those things, you can

609
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: create a robust solution that will predict their behavior and

610
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: easily predict their positions at any given point in the future.

611
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: They orbit a center of gravity in a very clear

612
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 1: and simple way, and you can create a closed solution

613
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: that will show you where they'll be at time t

614
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: But if you add a third object to the mix,

615
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: suddenly chaos and unpredictability takeover. And the objects are still

616
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: perfectly governed by the laws of physics. It's not like

617
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: a ghost win in there and did anything crazy. But

618
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: but their interaction suddenly can't be predicted in a concise way,

619
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: and they'll appear to change orbits and positions sort of

620
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: crazily as each object repeatedly gets pulled in surprising directions

621
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: by the other two. If you want to see what

622
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 1: this looks like, you can look up the three body

623
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: problem or three body orbit online and there are lots

624
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: of videos that simulate it so you can see it.

625
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: But just imagine what it would look like if you

626
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: try to put three objects orbiting each other in space.

627
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 1: I mean, they just go all over the place. And so,

628
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: in keeping with these themes of predictability and unpredictability, it

629
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: also deals with the ways that we can't predict which

630
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: of our ideas in science and technology will be most

631
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: applicable and in what ways. So there, I feel like

632
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,720
Speaker 1: there's a lot of stuff in this book about people

633
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: sort of working in the dark and not knowing what

634
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 1: they're working towards before realizing how their work becomes crucial.

635
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: And that's the theme I like a lot. Now I

636
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: have to I have to mention that I didn't read

637
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: it so much as I listened to it. I had

638
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: the audio book version of this, and the audio book

639
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 1: is terrific. Uh. I love a good audio book presentation,

640
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: and this is certainly one of those. I think you

641
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: mentioned that the reader does the detective character in a

642
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: real gruff way or something. Yeah, it's kind of a

643
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: kind of a gruff voice like this, you know, kind

644
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: of like an old time Yeah, and he does. He

645
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 1: has some other very interesting voice choices later on as well. Um.

646
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 1: I was actually listening to the audio book version and

647
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: my wife was reading a hard copy of it, and

648
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: I have to say, this is one of those books

649
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,720
Speaker 1: where if if you were, say, a hundred pages ahead

650
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: of someone else, like you are of radically different thoughts. Yeah,

651
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: you have radically different thoughts. It's almost like you're in

652
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: a different book when you start trying to compare notes

653
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: on what's happening. Oh man, I loved it. I loved

654
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 1: how you would you'd get into these parts of the

655
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: book where you're just like, what is going on? What

656
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: does this have to do with anything? Uh? Specifically, there

657
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: is a crucial virtual reality video game in the book

658
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: that when when you start getting into these sections of

659
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 1: the book, I just remember thinking like, how on earth

660
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 1: does this have anything to do with with the broader plot?

661
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: But then it connects in I think a brilliant way. Yeah,

662
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: this is like a it's a it's a virtual depiction

663
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: of an alien world that's threatened by by by by

664
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: these periods of like burning and freezing. Right, they're trying

665
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: to figure out what are the celestial mechanics with multiple

666
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: suns that are that are just burning out the world

667
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: in in a way that directly echoes the Chinese myth

668
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 1: of Ho Yee the the archer who shoots the surplus

669
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: suns out of the sky. And a number of other

670
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: mythological and historical figures are also referenced in this virtual world. Yeah,

671
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: I think there's a legendary Chinese emperor in one of

672
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: the yes yes uh in one of the simulations, but

673
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: also some Western figures as well as I recall. Oh yeah,

674
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 1: I think, like I don't remember who all they are,

675
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 1: but like like Einstein and Socrates and Jesus show up

676
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 1: or something. There's a tremendous sense of unpredictability with this book.

677
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: I mean, part of it just be due to the

678
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: originality of the book itself, but I also wonder how

679
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: much of it is the fact that most of us

680
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 1: probably do not read a lot of Chinese literature, more

681
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 1: certainly Chinese science fiction, so you know, we're not as

682
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 1: keyed into what some of the trends are. I don't know.

683
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 1: I think I'm embarrassed to say this, but I think

684
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: this might be the first modern Chinese novel. I have read.

685
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: I don't. I want to think of another, but I

686
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,760
Speaker 1: can't that that is a huge blind spot in my reading.

687
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: I guess I should read more, but yeah, this is

688
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: the only one I can think of. Yeah, yeah, I'm

689
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 1: I've I've read some older works by by various Chinese writers,

690
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: but this is this is the only work of contemporary

691
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: science fiction that comes to mind, for sure. And but

692
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: it's certainly not the only translated Chinese science fiction work

693
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: out there. There are there are a number of other

694
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 1: ones of note. Oh yeah, of course. Well, so, Robert,

695
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: maybe I think we should transition to a slightly more

696
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: spoil ery discussion. So if if you're planning on reading

697
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: the book, you don't want anything spoiled, maybe you should

698
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: hop out now. But but before you go, if you

699
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: are leaving early, let me just remind you that there

700
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: will be a complete list of all of these books

701
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 1: and links to where you can buy them or obtain

702
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,959
Speaker 1: them or find out more information about them. Uh. They'll

703
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: all be on the landing page for this episode. It's

704
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind dot com. Yeah, Now, if

705
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: you do want to stick around, we hope you will.

706
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: You don't plan on reading this book or you've already

707
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: read it, or maybe you just don't mind having a

708
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 1: few kind of like themes talked about at greater length.

709
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: I want to talk about some of the ideas explored

710
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: in this book. So first of all, we can talk about,

711
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: now that we're over the gap, the fact that this

712
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:43,360
Speaker 1: turns out to be a disastrous first contact novel. Yes, uh,

713
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: first contact between an alien civilization and Earth, and that

714
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 1: it ultimately ends with the alien civilization taking a hostile,

715
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 1: colonizing position towards Planet Earth looking at us within v

716
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: s eye. Yes, And when I when we've talked about

717
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 1: how it's a different book at later on, that it

718
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: is in the early goings, I have to point out

719
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: that you start with what seems like it's going to

720
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: be a very historically based novel, take place in the past,

721
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 1: but you do reach a point where it's just page

722
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: after page from the the aliens point of view. And

723
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: if you're listening to the audio book, their voices sound

724
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 1: like the moon and nights on what's this show? The

725
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 1: adult swim show, U Aquaritine hungerful. Yes, this is the

726
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: voice that sort of sounds like this. This is the

727
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: voice of the aliens. That's great. It works. The aliens

728
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: have a calm malevolence that is not mean spirited, but

729
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: but is perfectly aggressive and cruel in a way that

730
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: mirrors one of my favorite lines from a sci fi

731
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: horror movie. Did you ever see the you know, the

732
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: late seventies invasion of the Body Snatchers with Donald Sutherland?

733
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: And then I've never seen that one. Oh well, now

734
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: I have to spoil something for you. There's just a

735
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: great line where where one of the characters who still human,

736
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: is talking to the uh, the people who have been

737
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 1: turned into aliens, and he says something like, we hate you,

738
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 1: and one of the aliens says to him, we don't

739
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 1: hate you. It's just a brilliantly chilling thing to say.

740
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can definitely see

741
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: the echo of that in the In This War. But yeah.

742
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 1: So so there's there's this attack coming, and a lot

743
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: of what the book ends up being about is the

744
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:30,360
Speaker 1: ways that the Aliens have have sent a sort of

745
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:35,720
Speaker 1: information based advance force to try to cripple Earth's ability

746
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: to protect itself from the alien invasion before they actually

747
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: get here. And so that's where where a lot of

748
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,879
Speaker 1: the fascinating ideas of the novel come in. Uh, it's

749
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: about what could an advanced alien civilization do to stop

750
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: Earth from being able to protect itself before they get

751
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: to us. And so one of the things that they

752
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,320
Speaker 1: come up with is they're like, we gotta stop science

753
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: from happening on Earth because they're afraid it's going to

754
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: take a long time for them to get to us.

755
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: And what if while they're in transit, we make a

756
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 1: lot of advances in particle physics and stuff and drastically

757
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: increase our technological capabilities. Yeah, I mean it is the

758
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: absolute best thing that we have as a culture, Like,

759
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: it is the thing that has produced the modern world,

760
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,720
Speaker 1: and it is the thing with the with with probably

761
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: the most unity among all human endeavors exactly. So they

762
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: come up with this plan to be because so they

763
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 1: want to colonize Earth, but they can't like send a

764
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 1: big heavy spaceships fast enough to get to us. So

765
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:43,280
Speaker 1: instead they create a supercomputer inside an extremely tiny particle

766
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 1: that can be sent at at super fast speed towards Earth,

767
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 1: like with the speed approaching that of a photon. Right

768
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: that the idea exactly, so it gets here ahead of

769
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 1: when they could actually get here with all of their

770
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: heavy stuff, and it gets to Earth first. And mainly

771
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 1: what it goes about doing is trying to drive all

772
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: of the world's leading scientists and particle physicists and everybody

773
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 1: to despair and insanity. And it does this by making

774
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: them doubt the existence of scientific laws, like trying to

775
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 1: give them is. So they do the same experiment twice

776
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: and get different results. So it seems like the laws

777
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 1: of science are either breaking down or clearly we didn't

778
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: understand everything to begin with, and this the ladder of

779
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: science is no longer the sure way to ascend anywhere.

780
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: Another truly genius move that I think is there in

781
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 1: the plot, and I can't maybe this has been done

782
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,680
Speaker 1: in another science fiction work that because it's so obvious,

783
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: I feel like somebody should have thought of this, But

784
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 1: this is the first story I can think of really

785
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: exploiting this plot to its fullest. And the idea is

786
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: the aliens figure out how to exploit existing ideological and

787
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 1: political fractures within human kind to work the human population

788
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: against itself on their behalf. Isn't there isn't there a

789
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: series of I remember seeing these in bookstores when I

790
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: was a kid, but they're like alternative timeline books where

791
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: alien showed up during World War Two. Oh, I'm sure

792
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: it's happened. I bet it's probably explored in that in

793
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 1: those works for sure, and and others as well well.

794
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: I mean, so one of the things you often see,

795
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 1: it's it's a common point of of of the plot

796
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: in like Independence Day and stuff like, you know, all

797
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: these alien invasion movies, is suddenly we all realize that

798
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 1: we must set aside our petty differences and uh and

799
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: join together if we're going to face off against the aliens.

800
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: And there is some of that in this, in this

801
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: we should mention. This is also the first book in

802
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: a series. I haven't finished reading the other books yet,

803
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 1: but I've started the second one. Um, and so there

804
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,919
Speaker 1: is eventually some solidarity in banding together in the face

805
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: of the aliens. But one thing the aliens figure out

806
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,000
Speaker 1: they can do is that, you know, if there is

807
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: a if there is a frustrated faction that already hates

808
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: part of humanity, you can play to their biases and

809
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,439
Speaker 1: play to their in flat or them and get them

810
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,479
Speaker 1: on your side. And this is something that actually even

811
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: you know is commonly used in in human colonization, international

812
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 1: relations and all that exploiting factions within a target group

813
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: in order to play them, play them against each other

814
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 1: along their existing fractures. You don't have to make new fractures,

815
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: they're already factions within any given group of people. Yeah,

816
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: I'm instantly reminded us some examples from from Soviet history.

817
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: You know how how you end up dividing up these territories.

818
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 1: Make sure that you have a territory that has locked

819
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: into it to rival groups so that they're always fighting

820
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: each other and not fighting the the occupying power. You

821
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 1: know what. George Washington, the first president of the United States,

822
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: he had a lot of really lucid thoughts about this.

823
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: In his farewell address in seventeen, he was warning about

824
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: the nature of political parties. He was essentially saying, like,

825
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: don't get going with political par parties, because they will

826
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 1: be the death of you as a nation. So Washington's

827
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,799
Speaker 1: talking about internal party factionalism, you know, fighting amongst each other,

828
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 1: and he says it serves always to distract the public

829
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: counsels and enfeeble the public administration. It agitates the community

830
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 1: with ill founded jealousies and false alarms. It kindles the

831
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection.

832
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: It opens the door to foreign influence and corruption, which

833
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: finds a facilitated access to the government itself through the

834
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,359
Speaker 1: channels of party passions. Thus, the policy and the will

835
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: of one country are subjected to the policy and will

836
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: of another. And if you just replace Planet there for

837
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,320
Speaker 1: country there, you've got what happens. Uh in the novel.

838
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,280
Speaker 1: I don't know if you was thinking about George Washington,

839
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: but it's a perennial insight. I guess, yeah, yeah, I

840
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: think so. Since we're having our spoiler laden discussion here,

841
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 1: one thing that I wanted to mention from the second

842
00:45:57,960 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 1: novel in the series, the one that comes after The

843
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 1: Body Problem, is this great moment that I haven't finished

844
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: this novel yet, but there's a part where the particle

845
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: that the Aliens have sent ahead, the supercomputer AI that

846
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,240
Speaker 1: they've sent ahead that's about the size of a particle

847
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: and is flying around the Earth trying to prepare the

848
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 1: Earth to be invaded. There is a great scene where

849
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 1: it first learns that human beings, unlike the aliens who

850
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 1: sent it, have the ability to lie. Because the aliens

851
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: are not they're not individually deceptive because they don't communicate verbally,

852
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: they essentially share thoughts with one another in a detectable way,

853
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: and thus to think something is to have that thing

854
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,359
Speaker 1: be perceptible by another member of your species. And so

855
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: thus you can't misrepresent your thoughts. If you have a thought,

856
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 1: someone can see it on you, And so they don't

857
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 1: really have a concept of lying. And when the supercomputer

858
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 1: sent by the Aliens as they're on their way to

859
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 1: invade first becomes aware that human beings have the power

860
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 1: to say something that is not what they really think,

861
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: the supercomputer processes for a moment and then it says,

862
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 1: I am afraid. Alright. So so just to sum it up, um,

863
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:29,400
Speaker 1: humans versus aliens humans advantages, we have science disadvantages. Um,

864
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: we have we fight with each other, fight with each other,

865
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: and have political disunity. And then kind of a pro

866
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: and a con. Uh, there's the whole lying thing because

867
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: we lie to each other all the time, which doesn't

868
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: help our case. But then we can also lie to

869
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 1: the aliens if we're on talking terms with them. So anyway,

870
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: I highly recommend three Body Problem if you're in the

871
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 1: mood for some thought provoking science fiction. All right, Well,

872
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: there you have it. I feel like we've presented quite

873
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: a grab bag here of fiction, nonfiction, a little children's

874
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 1: literature thrown in as well. Uh. As I mentioned earlier,

875
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: I'll make sure that we have links to all of

876
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: these books on the landing page for this episode. It's

877
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 1: stuff to bow your mind, because inevitably you're gonna ask, well,

878
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 1: how do you spell that author's last name? What was

879
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 1: that book you mentioned? Maybe we didn't say the title

880
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: clearly enough. We'll have it all listed here, and then

881
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: you can continue your research into which books might best

882
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: suit your palette. And the other cool thing is that

883
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: you know this is just the beginning of a discussion

884
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,439
Speaker 1: really because inevitably, uh, many of you have read these

885
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: books as well, or some of these books, and you

886
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: have thoughts on them that you would like to share

887
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 1: with us or perhaps share with other listeners, say at

888
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: our Facebook group on stuff Toble your Mind discussion module.

889
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: And then perhaps you have all new recommendations for us

890
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: books that you that you you're thinking, well, if you

891
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: like this, then you'll definitely like this. Yeah, please send

892
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 1: them our way. Obviously we don't have time to read

893
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: all of the books that you recommend to us, but

894
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 1: a lot of times we do find out about books

895
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: that we end up reading from listener recommendations, so so

896
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 1: by all means yes, send them in. In the meantime,

897
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: be sure to check out stuff to Blow your Mind

898
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: dot com. That's where you will find all of the

899
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: podcast episodes and then of course includes all of the

900
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: previous summer reading episodes. UH. You'll also find links out

901
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 1: to our various social media accounts such as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,

902
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 1: et cetera. And if you want to support the show again,

903
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: the best thing you can do is to rate and

904
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: review us wherever you have the power to do so.

905
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: Big thanks as always to our wonderful audio producers Alex

906
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 1: Williams and Arry Harrison. If you would like to get

907
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback about this episode or

908
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 1: any other, to recommend books to us, to recommend a

909
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: topic for the future, just to say hi, let us

910
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: know where you listen from, maybe how you found out

911
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: about the show. You can always email us at blow

912
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 1: the Mind at how stuff works dot com for more

913
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,120
Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Does it how

914
00:49:52,160 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com? They point four point four foo