1 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hello everybody. I'm Jemma Spaike and welcome back to the 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back 5 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is 6 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: so great to have you here. Back for another episode. 7 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: Today we are talking about one of the most debilitating 8 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: and painful experiences I think a person can go through betrayal. 9 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: Not just heartbreak, not just disappointment, not just a fight, 10 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: but the moment someone you trusted proves themselves capable of 11 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: hurting you in a manner in a way that you 12 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: never imagined. The moment really that somebody takes everything that 13 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: you have given them time, kindness, energy, love, trust and 14 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: they say this means nothing to me. I'm going to 15 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: go and do what I want anyways. It is a 16 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 1: pain like no other because betrayal doesn't just change how 17 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: you relate and how you see that person. It changes 18 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: how you see everyone. It changes how you approach all 19 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 1: future relationships platonic, familial, romantic or otherwise, and it changes 20 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,400 Speaker 1: how you see yourself. There is a science, a psychology 21 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: to this pain. That really helps capture how earth shattering, 22 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: how earth shattering moments like this can be, and how 23 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: they influence our psychology and who we go forwards as people. 24 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 1: So today we're going to lay it all out there, 25 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: from the response of your nervous system to betrayal, trauma theory, 26 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: betrayal blindness, the role of shattered assumptions, but then also 27 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: the seven stages of healing from betrayal, and the silver lining, 28 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: the optimism that we're going to end with that betrayal 29 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: is something you can recover from. So we have a 30 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: lot to cover today. If you have been through this, 31 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 1: if you are struggling with the recent betrayal, I hope 32 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: this episode helps you, even in the tiniest of ways. 33 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: Without further ado, let's get into it. When you truly 34 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: start to think about betrayal and when you start to 35 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: look for betrayal, you really do begin to realize just 36 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: how many forms it comes in. I think our mind 37 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: often goes to the typical things, like at least my mind. 38 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: When I think of betrayal, I think of cheating, I 39 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: think of infidelity, I think of a friend lying to you, 40 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: a friend sharing a secret. There are so many other 41 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: forms of betrayal that we don't talk about. We don't 42 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 1: talk about the promises that a boss makes that they're 43 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: never going to fulfill. We don't talk about a parent 44 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: dismissing what you went through with them or in your childhood, 45 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: or favoritism for one child over the other. We don't 46 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: talk about somebody taking your idea and exploiting it, somebody 47 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 1: making promises and never coming through for you. These are 48 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: all acts of betrayal. Finally, I think we don't talk 49 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: about institutional betrayal enough, and betrayal that can emerge on 50 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: a macro level, from a school, from a workplace, from 51 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: a medical organization, from the police force. Like a lot 52 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: of times, like the news will spotlight these things, and 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: we don't often consider the people that are behind. There 54 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: are still relationships there that betrayal has occurred within, and 55 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: just because it's between somebody and an institution doesn't mean 56 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: that it's not an interpersonal social hurt. There is this 57 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: huge case in Australia at the moment of I think 58 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: it's over one hundred women. They had enemytriosis and they 59 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 1: went to this one doctor to get surgery and he 60 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: would basically perform very severe, very aggressive, very unnecessary incisions 61 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: and surgeries these women didn't need. He'd often make their 62 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: lives worse, and he would cover it up. His staff, 63 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,800 Speaker 1: the hospital he worked at, covered it up, right. How 64 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: awful is that? And it's awful as it is awful 65 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: in all cases of betrayal because of trust, because trust 66 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: was there to begin with. The best quote I've heard 67 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: about betrayal is the most tragic thing about it is 68 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: that it never comes from an enemy. You know, these 69 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: women trusted this man because he was a doctor, because 70 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 1: he seemed to listen to them, because he said he'd 71 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: take care of them. In all cases of betrayal, this 72 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 1: is the underlying thing. You don't think this person is 73 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: capable of doing this to you either, because they claim 74 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: to care about you, they claim to love you. They 75 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: were meant to protect you. They were an authority figure, 76 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,720 Speaker 1: they were a parent, and the nature of that relationship 77 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: like allowed you to let your guard down, and that 78 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: is what they saw as an opportunity to then let 79 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: you down. Someone thought, in all instances of betrayal, your 80 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: basic needs are less important than my Once you know 81 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: their desire to feel significant, to get what they want 82 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 1: to have people like them to be entertained any number 83 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: of things means more to them than your basic humanity 84 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: and the respect that you deserve. This points to a 85 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: very critical thing about betrayal that I just have to mention, 86 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: Like it's close to the beginning of this episode as possible, 87 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: the severity of the outcome of the betrayal does not matter. 88 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: No matter how large the consequence is. It doesn't matter 89 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: because the damage is done. Like again, yeah, the consequences 90 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: of betrayal don't need to be this big and dramatic 91 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 1: thing for a betrayal to be harmful. You know, you 92 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: might tell somebody a secret that doesn't really have any 93 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: earth shattering consequences, but it's still extremely hurtful at the 94 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: same time to have it revealed and for that trust 95 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 1: to be broken. Everything from moments like that to massive 96 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: things all rest on the same thing. There is a 97 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: loss of emotional safety that is almost impossible to come 98 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: back from, and not just with them, but with the 99 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: people who remind you of them later on and the 100 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 1: relationships that have a similar energy to them later on. 101 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: I think that's the reason we see betrayal depicted in 102 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: so many like great works of art like literature and 103 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: movies and poems and plays and TV. One of my 104 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: favorite books, literally, The Secret History is essentially just a 105 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 1: psychological deep dive into betrayal. And the reason we see 106 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: it so often is because we are drawn to depictions 107 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: like this the same way that we are drawn to 108 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: horror movies. You know, Betrayal is one of those things 109 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,679 Speaker 1: that scares us but also fascinates us the most because 110 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: of how much it is perceived as such a threat 111 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: emotionally and psychologically it terrifies us. So let's examine this 112 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: a little bit further. If you are currently reeling from 113 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: somebody in your life doing something absolutely terrible to you, 114 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: why does it hurt so much? What I wish more 115 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: people knew is that being betrayed does and can leave 116 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: long term psychological wounds that have been shown that have 117 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: been examined in study after study, And they don't just 118 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: manifest in your emotional life, they manifest physically as well. 119 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: So to understand that, we have to look at what 120 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: happens I guess biologically but also neurologically when you experience betrayal, 121 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,119 Speaker 1: like what is happening to the network in your brain? 122 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: First things first, when you experience a betrayal, like your 123 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: brain's threat system activates like crazy. The discovery of betrayal 124 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: is literally seen as like a threat to your safety, 125 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: a threat to your survival. It's going to cost you socially, 126 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: financially in terms of safety. That triggers the amygdala. The 127 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: amygdala is just going to flood your body with adrenaline 128 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: and it's just going to try and get us to 129 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: realize through whatever means possible, like something is going wrong. 130 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: Often that means pushing you into like fight, flight or freeze. Essentially, 131 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 1: your body is just like this is painful, this is 132 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: a threat. How are we going to live through this? 133 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: That is why, like when people first learn about betrayal, 134 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: they'll often talk about how they just felt this terrible rush. 135 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: They felt shaky, numb, they felt panicked, they felt dizzy. 136 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: That is your body being hit by a biological truck 137 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: that is meant to protect you. Our hippocampus, you guys 138 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: might know this part of the brain. It's responsible for 139 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: memory and learning. This part of our brain also goes 140 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: into OpenDRIVE. Your hippocampus is basically responsible for deciding what 141 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,959 Speaker 1: is important for me to remember and what doesn't really matter. 142 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: The thing is, the more emotionally intense a situation or 143 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: a learning experience is the deeper that our brain encodes it. 144 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 1: This can lead to what we know in psychology as 145 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: flashbulb memories. These are like vivid, intrusive recollections that feel 146 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: almost stuck in time. People will talk about the moment 147 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: they realized their partner of many years was lying to them, 148 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: or their moment a parent betrayed them or somebody at 149 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: work betrayed them twenty years later in perfect detail. You know, 150 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: they could tell you what they were wearing, They could 151 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: tell you what song was playing in the background, what 152 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 1: cologne they could smell, what the carpet felt like beneath them, 153 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: Because your brain is basically like, if we survive this, 154 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: we better know how we did it, because it's going 155 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: to be a miracle if we did, and we better 156 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: be able to remember every moment that led to our 157 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: survival in case there is a next time. This is 158 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: obviously a real problem for the healing stage. It's honestly 159 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,599 Speaker 1: so annoying because memories like this survive and stand the 160 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 1: test of time, and that's why they continue to be 161 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: difficult to recover from. Third thing, that's happening in your brain. 162 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: Your prefrontal cortex is suppressed. Your rational thinking disappears because 163 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: you are still in that shocked survival state. I'm sorry 164 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 1: I keep using the cheating example. I feel like it's 165 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: just the easiest one. But say you found out that, 166 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: like your partner has cheated on you, you might later 167 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: be like, oh my god, why did I not say 168 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: what I wanted to say? Like why did I react 169 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: that way? Why wasn't I angry? Why didn't I say something? 170 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: Why didn't I scream at them? Your brain didn't think 171 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 1: to do it. The rational part of your brain that 172 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: prioritize closure or that catharsis was just like prioritizing protection, 173 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: not analysis. After this fades, this first wave, after that fads, 174 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: the first like true shock of the explosion hits you. 175 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: This is when you really start to regain some like 176 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: cognitive clarity. This is when you start talking to witnesses 177 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: or people around you who were like, hey know, that 178 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: was fucked, Like that shouldn't happen. That person was not 179 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: nice to you. The pain centers of our brain now 180 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: light up. You know. Research has shown that emotional betrayal 181 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: activates the same neural pathways as physical pain. There was 182 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: a series of experiments done in two thousand and nine 183 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:16,839 Speaker 1: showing that even when participants imagined unacceptable, you know, non consensual, 184 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: terrible acts, their brains, even though it was an imagined thing, 185 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: still experience this as a real threat and it still 186 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: lit up the same pain regions as when you are 187 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 1: punched in the gut or when you break a limb. 188 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: So this is when you really start to feel it. 189 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: This is when you really also might start to notice 190 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: excessive rumination and obsessive thoughts. Essentially, like now, like the data, now, 191 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: the information of the actors has caught up to you, 192 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: and your brain is going to start really like trying 193 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: to review and figure out what happened, essentially just to 194 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 1: restore like the broken narrative of our worldview, to try 195 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: and find the explanation the puzzle piece for like why 196 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: did some do this? Like you want the world to 197 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: make sense again, You want a logical reason as to 198 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: why somebody acted this way towards you. This emotional looping 199 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: of like searching trying to find an answer. It is 200 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 1: a form of coping. And what's ironic about this is 201 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: our brain is trying to protect us. Our brain is 202 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: trying to conclude the story, finds some closure, but that 203 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: rumination often makes it worse because it starts encoding that 204 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: memory even deeper and deeper and deeper. In short, I 205 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: think this whole explanation, this neurological biological explanation, shows us 206 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: that like betrayal is a form of trauma, betrayal is 207 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: a profound loss. And it's not just one loss. That's 208 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: the thing. You are losing so many things. You experience 209 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: the loss of trust, like firstly, but then you also 210 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: probably experience the loss of this relationship, like you don't 211 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: want to be with them anymore or be around them anymore. 212 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: You then experience the loss of the future that you 213 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: imagined with that person or with those people, or your 214 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: plans or those opportunities. Then lose dignity. You then lose 215 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: other relationships that were tied to that person. You then 216 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: lose a loss of future safety like it is how 217 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: many like that's at least seven right, It's not just 218 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: that you lost the trust. Such an expansive experience of loss. Again, 219 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: that is why this is trauma. That is why it 220 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: is not dramatic to suggest that like this leaves long 221 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: lasting emotional wounds. There is this whole theory actually called 222 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: betrayal trauma theory that shows betrayal can cause even more 223 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: emotional scarring than non betrayal trauma. I don't always like 224 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: to compare. I think it's like apples and oranges, but 225 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: like there is impact, there is that is seen on 226 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: a similar level as going to war, experience a car accident, 227 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 1: experiencing violence. Essentially, all of this is just to validate, right, 228 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: going through this, Even if somebody wasn't violent against you, 229 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: even if somebody you know didn't do something unimaginable or 230 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: didn't do something that would make the newspapers like, it 231 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: still leaves lasting emotional wounds and it still really does 232 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: kind of change who you are as a person. And 233 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: that's exactly what we're going to discuss as well as, 234 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: as I said, how to heal from this betrayal after 235 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: the shortbreak, So stay with us. The real long lasting 236 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: pain of betrayal is that the other person gets to 237 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: move on, They get to move on, and you are 238 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: the one that's left with a fundamental sense of uncertainty 239 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: moving forward with your life. This uncertainty continues to like pop, 240 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: its nasty head up again and again in so many 241 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: other situations and so many other relationships where it does 242 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: not deserve to be. In fact, there was a twenty 243 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: twenty four study that systematically investigated this with over one 244 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 1: hundred and forty participants who had experienced partner betrayal trauma, 245 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: and the study found that in nearly every single case, 246 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: individuals had lower self esteem, they had an increased sense 247 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: of future relationship anxiety, an increased sense of hypervigilance, and 248 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: they almost I think it was, all of them found 249 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: it harder to imagine ever ever trusting anybody ever again. 250 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: I think the reason why this is is because almost 251 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: all at once, when somebody betrays us, we are forced 252 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: to shift our perspective on what people are capable of. 253 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: It's not to say we were ignorant before, not at all, 254 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: but we kind of all like to live with the 255 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: assumption that people are as kind as we are, as 256 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: are as empathetic as we are, and that if somebody 257 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: loves somebody else, or somebody cares for somebody else, or 258 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: makes a promise, they will not break that promise, they 259 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: will not hurt them. That is like the social contract 260 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: that we need for society and for relationships to thrive 261 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: and to continue, and so for that contract to suddenly 262 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: be revealed as in correct jeopardize is like all that 263 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: we think we know about humanity and how we think 264 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: humans operate. The social psychologist Ronnie Janov Bullman I think 265 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: the name was, she calls this exact experience the shattered 266 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: assumption experience. It is a phenomena where something traumatic occurs 267 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: and you cannot readily assimilate that into the previous worldview 268 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: that you held, and that creates a lot of psychological 269 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: and emotional chaos and confusion. Essentially, the shattered assumptions theory 270 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: is that in that exact moment when we realize, when 271 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: the curtain is lifted, our whole narrative about other people 272 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: and their behavior is like disturbed in an instance, and 273 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: the reaction this creates in us also has a name. 274 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: It's called systemic mistrust, and it also creates systemic vigilance 275 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: or hypervigilance. Basically, it creates this reaction where now we 276 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: question everything, even things that don't need to be questioned. 277 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: We assume the worst, and everybody like we cannot help it. 278 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: We don't ever want to feel this way again. We 279 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: don't ever want to be hurt again, and that makes 280 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: relationships in the future really really hard. Another big thing 281 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: is that we don't just find it hard to trust 282 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: others because of these shadowed assumptions, we find it hard 283 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 1: to trust ourselves. And I actually think this is the 284 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: more insidious part. Although you may rationally know and I 285 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: will happily tell you, everybody may tell you this is 286 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 1: not your fault. Nobody asked to be betrayed, Nobody you don't. 287 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: It's just not your fault, no matter how much people say, 288 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: like this came out of nowhere, We had no idea, 289 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: there was no signs. Because your brain is trying to 290 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: find all possible ways to avoid this from happening again. Eventually, 291 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: it's going to turn that skepticism towards you, and it's 292 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: going to turn it intowards like it's looking for an answer. Eventually, 293 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: it's going to think, am I the reason? Did I 294 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: do something to deserve this? Is my intuition just all wrong? 295 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 1: Do I just not know how to read people? Am 296 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 1: I just stupid? Like? Eventually your brain, it's normal, it's 297 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: going to think that none of that is true. Trust me, 298 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: you weren't stupid, You didn't know, really, it's just not true. 299 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: This is just your brain trying to explore every possible solution. 300 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: I get this question sometimes, I do manipulators know what 301 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: they're doing, And the answer is yes, they do. And 302 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: even when they don't think they are being intentional about 303 00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: what they are doing, they are willingly and actively pushing 304 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: down feelings of discomfort and guilt that any normal person 305 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: would be able to read understand that they are hurting somebody, 306 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: and if they had a slice of empathy in them, 307 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: turn away from right, even that naivety, even that avoidance, 308 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: even that ignorance that they may claim they have, like 309 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: that is still a sign that they are a manipulative 310 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 1: person and that they had intention because at some point 311 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 1: they ignored that feeling, the feeling that told them they 312 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,679 Speaker 1: were doing something wrong. There is I think that is 313 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: just such clear evidence that this is not cannot be 314 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 1: your fault. This is just sometimes how people operate with 315 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: They're just callous and they're cruel, and there are people 316 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: out there that are like that. I want to talk 317 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: about this other strange psychological phenomena that often happens after betrayal. 318 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: It's called betrayal blindness. Jennifer fraid. She's a professor of 319 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: psychology at the University of Oregon, and she's actually the 320 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: founder and the CEO president I Guess, of the Center 321 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: of Institutional Courage, basically talking about betrayal trauma. And she's 322 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: done more extensive work on the impact of betrayal on 323 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: the mind than probably any other human has, especially institutional 324 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: betrayal actually and interpersonal betrayal. And through her research she 325 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 1: found that sometimes our mind protects us from seeing or 326 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: processing betrayal early on in a relationship or early on 327 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: in our lives, because to do so would be so 328 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: disruptive that our mind almost willingly ignores it for us, 329 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: Which is why then get that sense of like, shouldn't 330 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 1: I have known? You literally couldn't if your brain was 331 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: blocking you from knowing. An example of this might be 332 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: with a parent abusing a child right. This leaves the 333 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: child in a terrible situation. They cannot speak up. They 334 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: also cannot pull away because they have to engage in 335 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: this relationship to have their basic needs met and somebody 336 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: might not listen to them and it will make it worse. 337 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: This is why children or people sometimes experience betrayal blindness. 338 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: They just don't even recognize that was betrayal, because Sedusa 339 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: would mean they would have to leave or no longer 340 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: have that bond. You know, it's different to when you're 341 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: an adult. It's different to when you have a bit 342 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: more control and you can confront somebody, you can do 343 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 1: something hopefully, like especially in these situations, if you're a 344 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: grown child versus a young child, you could confront a 345 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: partner who cheated on you, you could leave the relationship 346 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: in some cases, like the problem arises with betrayal blindness 347 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 1: when you don't have power, you're dependent on them emotionally, 348 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: financially for our response of withdrawal like is the only 349 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: one that we have, Like, the only way that we 350 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: can get through this is to be like, this is 351 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: not happening, this is not occurring, because I need my 352 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: needs to be met and acknowledging betrayal would mean that 353 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: I would have to I would have to live, and 354 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: that would be deeply dangerous for me. This on actually 355 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: show up at work too. We might like feel really 356 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: neglected and like betrayed by a boss, but because we 357 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,160 Speaker 1: rely on that job for financial security, like we don't 358 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: want to rock the boat again. Betrayal blindness as a 359 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: means of self preservation. Our brains literally may erase the 360 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: experience entirely. People have also been observed retelling the experience 361 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: and this is awful, but as if it's something they wanted, 362 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: as if they were in control, when actually they they weren't. 363 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: It's something that their brain is doing to make them 364 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: feel less. I hate this word, but like victimized, sometimes 365 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: enduring betrayal is about survival and you cannot blame yourself 366 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: for what you did to survive, Like you just can't. 367 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: What else were you meant to do? I want to 368 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: cirkle back for a second to that last thing we 369 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: spoke about just before that. Do manipulative people know their manipulative? 370 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,959 Speaker 1: Or more specifically, like, what does it look like inside 371 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: the mind of somebody who betrayed you? Like, is what's 372 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: going on in there? This is such a common thing 373 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: that comes up. Literally a week ago, less than a 374 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: week here, I was speaking to one of my friends 375 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: about this and about a situation that they've been going through, 376 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: and we were having this whole discussion of like how 377 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: could somebody do this to me? How? We just kept 378 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 1: coming back to it, and the thing is like, you 379 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: may never know because your mind operates in such a 380 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,879 Speaker 1: different way to them, you would never do anything like that. 381 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: That's why you cannot emphathize the question like why would 382 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: anybody do this? Requires empathy, requires you to have some 383 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: understanding of how that person's mind works, and in that moment, 384 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: it's obvious that it works so differently that it's almost 385 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: impossible to gain access to the Fact that you do 386 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: not understand shows how differently you are as people and 387 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: shows how much this was a them problem, not a 388 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: new problem. But let's actually unpack some of the common reasons, 389 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: the common reasons why people betray others that have nothing 390 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: to do with the person themselves. Firstly, biggest explanation for betrayal, 391 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,680 Speaker 1: this person is just selfish. There's a lot of self 392 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,479 Speaker 1: interest in the world. People often betray others to gain power, 393 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: to gain attention, to gain money. They might also betray 394 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: somebody to avoid negative consequences to protect themselves from harm. 395 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: In this instance, the betrayer has placed their own needs 396 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 1: above the well being of others. They might even feel justified, 397 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: like you know, well, I'm not actually happy in that 398 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: relationships like why not? Or like that person upset me 399 00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: this one time so like I get one chance to 400 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 1: get back at them. This selfishness really stems from a 401 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: sense of scarcity or a sense of entitlement that their 402 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: needs are better and need to be more predicted than yours. Next, insecurity, 403 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: people commit acts of betrayal because they have low self esteem. 404 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: They might feel like they need to control or manipulate 405 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: others to feel better about themselves, to avoid rejection, to 406 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: earn a sense of validation that they so desperately need. 407 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,919 Speaker 1: Does this mean they deserve sympathy. That's up to you. 408 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: You can decide. Because I don't know. We all have insecurities. 409 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: Most of us don't act this way. I don't know. 410 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: We all have insecurities, and most of us don't cheat 411 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 1: on our boyfriends. Most of us don't stab our friends 412 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: in the back. The other thing is power dynamics. There 413 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: are people who just want to assert power and they 414 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: want to assert control, and this can occur in both 415 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: a personal professional relationship setting, and it is a very serious, 416 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: serious issue. You know, there are people who genuinely, yes, 417 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,399 Speaker 1: have a lack of empathy, Yes, are insecure, Yes have 418 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: an inability to understand other people's feelings. And then they 419 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: also kind of enjoy it like they also, I've noticed 420 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: this get a kick out of cruel, controlling behavior. It's 421 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: this strange thing. It's like they enjoy seeing the damage 422 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: that they can do in other people's lives. It's exciting 423 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,200 Speaker 1: to them. These people exist, and I think the reason 424 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: why they do this is that the world feels uncontrollable 425 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: to them. They feel insignificant. The world feels like it's 426 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 1: been very unkind to them, so they rectify that by 427 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 1: messing in other people's lives to feel like God almost, 428 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: to feel like they have a say in their destiny 429 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: or their fate or the fate of other people. Like 430 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 1: that's how they that's how they go and do it. 431 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: Like totally kind of totally off topic, not totally, but 432 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: in a lot of psychological interviews with like serial killers 433 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: or murderers, this is an explanation that I've seen a 434 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: lot of them give. The justification that comes out and 435 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: a lot of these manifestos and a lot of these 436 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: interviews is like I like it, I need to be 437 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: in control. A lot of these men will be like 438 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: as a child, as a kid, I felt like things 439 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 1: just happened to me that made me angry. So now 440 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,440 Speaker 1: it's my turn. It's my turn to make these bad 441 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,159 Speaker 1: things happen to other people. It's this weird universal karma. 442 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: Pretty messed up, pretty messed up, but again shows that 443 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: you are nothing like these people. It's good news. You 444 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: can't understand them. It's just I think that that lack 445 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 1: of empathy shows that this is a personal flaw. Okay, 446 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: we're going to take one more little itty bitty shortbreak 447 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: here before we detail the recovery process from betrayal trauma 448 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: and where to go from here. So without further ado, 449 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: stay with us. Researchers have developed this thing that I 450 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,679 Speaker 1: think is incredibly helpful in situations like this and so 451 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 1: good to cite in this episode, called the betrayal grief cycle, 452 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: and this is how they explain what you will feel 453 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,120 Speaker 1: at different stages of recovering from an act of betrayal. 454 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: The one thing that they really emphasize, and we spoke 455 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 1: about this in our Trauma Bond episode. If you listen 456 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: to that one, go and listen to it after this, 457 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:35,479 Speaker 1: but betrayal doesn't eliminate grief, no matter how horrendous this 458 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: person was. The good memories they kind of still linger, 459 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: like a pleasant smell. And that can be really annoying 460 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: at times, especially for interpersonal betrayal, because there was you know, 461 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: it's hard because there was a time when everything was 462 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,720 Speaker 1: going really well and when they said that they loved 463 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 1: you and they cared about you, and they were an 464 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: amazing friend, they were a great parent, they were an 465 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: amazing lover grieving that is important. Your brain lived both 466 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: experiences equally. It lived the experience of being hurt, but 467 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: it also lived the experience of before that, a feeling safe, 468 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 1: and that is still resonant in your mind because of that. 469 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 1: Healing from betrayal is so much like grief, and it 470 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: does often follow the stages of grief that were first 471 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 1: developed by Elizabeth Kubler Ross that you've probably heard of before, 472 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: but researchers have added a few extra stages in for betrayal, 473 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: trauma over grieving a dead person. So let's unpack these together, 474 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 1: because even if you've heard of these stages before, they 475 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: do look a little bit differently, and they do even 476 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: look a little bit differently from the same cycle that's 477 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: used for a breakup or used for a friendship fizzle, 478 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 1: oh yeah, used for a death. So stage one is 479 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: the same, I think anytime something deeply emotional happens, we 480 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: react with shock. This is what you're gonna have to 481 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: go through first. We spoke about this earlier before. But 482 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,840 Speaker 1: there is horror at discovering what the betrayal has done, 483 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: and we kind of just feel like numb. We are 484 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: not really comprehending what happened, or maybe a little bit, 485 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: but not fully and not deeply. Various studies have suggested 486 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: that shock actually the reason we go through this is 487 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: that it acts as like an emotional anesthetic. So basically 488 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: our brain is like, this is so intense. We cannot 489 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: feel the full intensity of this. We can't feel this 490 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: straight away. We will we will not survive. So let's 491 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: like numb us up so we can get through this 492 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: and we can we can talk about it later. This 493 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: is similar to like when people escape burning buildings with 494 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: their legs broken, or like crazy things like that. The 495 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: shock delays the pain, allowing you to behave in a 496 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: life preserving way. And the thing is is that this 497 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: can last weeks, this can last month, sometimes it can 498 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: last years. You will move out of the shock phase 499 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: when your brain finally thinks like, oh, they can handle it. 500 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: When they finally are like, okay, we have a little 501 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,160 Speaker 1: bit more coping going on with which sucks, right because 502 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: you kind of think that you've already lived through a 503 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: little bit of it. And then suddenly, when you actually 504 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: are coping a little bit better, your brain's like, okay, cool, 505 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: so we can give them the first dose. Now. Stage 506 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: two is when this is really happening. So it's like 507 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: the disbelief in the denial, and also the first inching 508 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: or tiny bit of pain. You start crying, panicking, start 509 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: to feel hurt. There is still a sense though, of 510 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 1: like it's gonna be okay, right, Like this is just 511 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: a big prank, This is just an accident. This person 512 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: didn't mean that I heard them wrong. I got the 513 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: wrong facts. Part of you still is feeling it, but 514 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 1: wants to preserve the story you know so well, the 515 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: story that people can be trusted. Stage three, that's when 516 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: we get to obsession. This is the most confusing and 517 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: painful stage. The rumination, the hunt for more information sets in. 518 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: It becomes all consuming. When also your brain starts to 519 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: be like, maybe it was our fault, what could we 520 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: have done to stop this from happening. This is when 521 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: your brain starts to be like friends, family, like what 522 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: did you see? What do you know? Confirm, deny anything 523 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: that you might have, like I need to know. It's 524 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: a hunt, I would honestly say, especially if you've been 525 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: cheated on, don't go hunting for more information unless it's 526 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: like absolutely necessary, like a legal case. Like knowing too 527 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 1: much about a betrayal might seem like it's gonna make 528 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: you feel better because it's gonna offer closure. I think 529 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: it actually just gives an already terrible situation even more detail, 530 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: and that stuff can be really difficult to unsee. It 531 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: can cause so much pain further on or later on. 532 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: I should say, it's up to you. Like some people 533 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: do process better with more information, especially if it's like 534 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: institutional betrayal or like a workplace betrayal. It's like good 535 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: to have your evidence and it's good to have things 536 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: documented and to be like, oh, other people know, and 537 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: if there's like a legal case like that's very important. 538 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: But especially for like interpersonal betrayal. At this stage, like 539 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: the obsessional thoughts are normal, try not to feed the beast. 540 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: Stage four is anger and sadness. During stage four, you 541 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: will find yourself furious, furious, like deeply, deeply angry at 542 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: the other person. I think this is a great sign. Congratulations. 543 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: If you've gotten too the anger stage, congratulations, this is 544 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: great because probably for the first half you've been like, wow, 545 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: this is just terrible. Everybody's sad, everybody's hurt, like oh, 546 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: like maybe even making excuses. And now you are like 547 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,959 Speaker 1: I am ready to fight and like that person shouldn't 548 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: have done that to me. It's when you can see 549 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: your sense of self returning. You might also be angry 550 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: at like the person who told you what happened, because 551 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 1: you might see that as as the source of betrayal, 552 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: like shooting the messenger if that's how you found out. 553 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: You might be furious as well at this person for 554 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: the transference of guilt. Right, they alleviated their conscience by 555 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: telling you, and so they've passed the guilt onto you 556 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 1: like a little baton, like now it's your turn to 557 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: carry this. They finally feel relieved. Weird sidebar if you 558 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: guys remember the try guys, the YouTubers and the guy 559 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: what was his name, ned former who like publicly cheated 560 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,720 Speaker 1: on his wife. He like did this whole YouTube video 561 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: with her baby, maybe like six months ago. When he 562 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: was like, oh, I'm gonna you know, I'm going, yeah, 563 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: did this whole YouTube video of like I'm gonna launch 564 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: this thing about people's rock bottoms, and I'm going to 565 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: interview my wife who I cheated on for the first episode, 566 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: And in it, she talks about the most like I 567 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: love that she stole the spotlight. She talks about this 568 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: moment when he told her when she could almost see 569 00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: relief in his eyes, relief of like, thank god, God, 570 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 1: I don't have to keep that in anymore, thank God 571 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 1: I can talk about this openly. And she talks about 572 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,080 Speaker 1: that moment of like you took off like the backpack 573 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: of your shame, of your mistakes, of your bad behavior, 574 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,120 Speaker 1: and you were like, oh, can you carry that now 575 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: your turn? And she had to keep it like that 576 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: is an amazing way of describing it, and then describing 577 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: of like how you suddenly realize and when you suddenly realize, oh, 578 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: like that you that is it. That was not a 579 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: nice thing for you to do, and like you were 580 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 1: in the wrong stage five. When you hit stage five bargaining, 581 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: you might find yourself really trying to I think it's 582 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: kind of like a slight reversal, right, if you can 583 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 1: see it's a lot of this is three steps forward, 584 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:51,360 Speaker 1: two steps back. This is another stage of like trying 585 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: again to shove this experience into your worldview and bargaining 586 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: about like what if they only did it once? What 587 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: if they didn't really know what they were doing, what 588 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: if what if like I did give them a second chance, 589 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,680 Speaker 1: what if like I'm overreacting again. This is not a 590 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,959 Speaker 1: sign to like return to them or to prematurely forgive them. 591 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: This is just how your brain is adjusting to the 592 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: situation and trying to figure out the puzzle that is 593 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: within you and trying to figure out the puzzle that 594 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,000 Speaker 1: is the situation and how to feel okay again. So 595 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 1: it's totally normal to be bargaining before you end up 596 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: in the final stage, well, the second final stage of 597 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: like the grieving process, which is morning you had anger, 598 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: you had sadness, you had denial, bargaining. Now it's just 599 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: melancholy and just the deep anguish that comes with those 600 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: shattered assumptions you realize truly like how much you've lost. 601 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: You realize you are You're never going to get invited 602 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: to those events with that person again, You're never going 603 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: to have You're never going to have the future of 604 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: the wedding and the kids. You're never going to get 605 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: the job that you're never going to get an answer 606 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: about that, or you're never going to get your health back, 607 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,759 Speaker 1: the time back, like it's lost, you really lost out. 608 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: The stage in the grief Spaces is known as depression, 609 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: and we can't understate like how profound that really means, 610 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: Like what that really means. All the adrenaline, all the investigating, 611 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,400 Speaker 1: all of the thinking that anger is taking a physical toll, 612 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: and we will feel that you might start to get 613 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: sick a lot more often. You might start to really 614 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: lose interest in everything that you would normally love. You 615 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,839 Speaker 1: might isolate as you mourn the end of this thing 616 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: that you also feel equally like you shouldn't mourn because 617 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: it ended so badly. It's really tough to adjust to 618 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: the beginning of a new chapter, like you didn't even 619 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,759 Speaker 1: want you didn't want this chapter. Now you have to 620 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: do your best with what you were given because you 621 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: weren't given a choice. Morning is just like so hard, 622 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: it's so uncomfortable. But think we tend to rush through it, 623 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 1: and it's something that you cannot rush through. I think 624 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: anybody who's experienced this will tell you, like grief, sadness, heartbreak, 625 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 1: betrayal are things that you have to move through rather 626 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 1: than try and dodge around. And when you do, you 627 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: get to stage seven, which is acceptance and recovery. I 628 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,560 Speaker 1: think the best way I've seen this described how you 629 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: know that you are fully accepting what's happened to you 630 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: is when the future starts to feel as exciting and 631 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: good as you thought the past was. Basically that before 632 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: and the after start to feel similar, Like there's optimism, 633 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: there's a deep sense of like this is just what 634 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: I was dealt I can deal with it. I want 635 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 1: to feel happy, I want to be alive. I want 636 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,440 Speaker 1: to get through this. How am I going to make 637 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: this happen? Despite all of that, it's also probably the 638 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: first time where you can like objectively see the situation 639 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: for what it is. I think in the first few 640 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 1: stages there's all is like a dominant emotion trying to 641 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 1: convince you of some reality of this betrayal. You know 642 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: that it didn't happen, that it was all terrible, that 643 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 1: you can never love again. And this is the moment 644 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: when you just have a bit more neutrality, not feeling 645 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,840 Speaker 1: nothing but knowing that you felt everything, knowing more solidly 646 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: that you weren't to blame, knowing more solidly their motivations, 647 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 1: and just being able to look at it just neutraally. Again. 648 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: Psychologists talk a lot about how in this stage it's 649 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,879 Speaker 1: really important to find meaning right. There is another very 650 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 1: famous guy, David Kesler. He wrote the book You Can 651 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: Heal Your Heart, which you may have read. He also 652 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: wrote a lot of stuff on grieving, and he describes 653 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: meaning when it comes to betrayal as how we learn 654 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: to carry our grief and sadness differently, rather than eliminating it, 655 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 1: finding a way to put all the individual heavy parts 656 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: of grief and betrayal into a bag and carry it 657 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: with us, maybe even put it down occasionally, maybe even 658 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,120 Speaker 1: forget it's there. It's basically, how do we find a 659 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: story that makes this make sense? Think of I was 660 00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: going to give any advice to someone going through betrayal, 661 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: it would be this, whatever makes the story of this 662 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 1: moment relevant or makes sense to you, grasp onto that. 663 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: Whatever story, whether that is the story that everything happens 664 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: for a reason, whether it is the story of rejection 665 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:30,040 Speaker 1: is redirection, whether it is the story of karma, whether 666 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: it is the story of how this will allow you 667 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: to help others in the future, story that this is 668 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 1: proof of your own capacity to love. Whatever it is. 669 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 1: Find the story that makes this make sense. If you 670 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,320 Speaker 1: can find something that allows you to take those shattered 671 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: assumptions and be like hearing you assumptions and they feel 672 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: just as comfortable. Finally, just remember, even though it was 673 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,240 Speaker 1: done to you, it wasn't about you. I cannot stress 674 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: this enough. I have a friend going through this at 675 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: the moment, and the thing we keep discussing is this 676 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: person isn't going to magically become a different version of 677 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: themselves for whoever comes next, or for their next best friend, 678 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: or for their next partner, or for their next employee, 679 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,320 Speaker 1: or for their next whatever. Like, They're not going to 680 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: magically change. This is a part of their character. And 681 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,839 Speaker 1: even if they do, even if they do get help 682 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,240 Speaker 1: and they do change, whatever they do next doesn't erase 683 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: the pain they caused in the past. It doesn't suddenly 684 00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: erase this part of their history. Like just because they're 685 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: a great person doesn't mean that like they've always been 686 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: that way. The fact that they betrayed you is just 687 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: as much a part of their story as it is 688 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:41,839 Speaker 1: of yours. They will always be a part of them 689 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: that knows they will always be a part of them 690 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: that did that act like that had the capacity to 691 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: do that. So I want to wrap up this episode 692 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 1: by just saying by just saying, like, don't think that you, 693 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: as a victim of this betrayal, were somehow and I 694 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,799 Speaker 1: know this is going to sound were somehow special. It 695 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: is them through and through it, like the people have 696 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: the capacity to do this. It's something in them. Just 697 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: really again that quote from the beginning, saw your needs, 698 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: saw the respect that you were owed, and decided that's 699 00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: just not as important as my own interests and went 700 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: ahead with that. That is a completely them situation. I 701 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: know a lot of this is just like lingo and 702 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,200 Speaker 1: words and like whatever, psychobabble theories and sometimes like that 703 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: cannot erase the pain of what you're going through. But 704 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,399 Speaker 1: I do hope the psycho education and the more scientific 705 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: perspective on what you're experiencing can neutralize some of the 706 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,800 Speaker 1: shame and neutralize some of like the grief, by showing 707 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 1: you that like not that this is a normal experience, 708 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: but this is like there are things to this experience 709 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 1: that every human would go through and that every human 710 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 1: would feel pain by because they are so devastating and 711 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 1: you are no different. It's also something that like I 712 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: don't know, time maybe won't heal, but does wonders for 713 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: And I think the fact that you are moving through 714 00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 1: this with grace, you are looking to learn, you are 715 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: looking to understand yourself better through the actions of somebody else, 716 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,279 Speaker 1: is really really powerful stuff. And I think that there 717 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,959 Speaker 1: is a lot of healing and amazing things coming your way. 718 00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: I really do believe it. I really do believe that 719 00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,440 Speaker 1: for every terrible person, or terrible institution or terrible situation 720 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: out there, there is like something equally as gorgeous and wonderful. 721 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,360 Speaker 1: And I think that you are one hundred percent deserving 722 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: of it and it is on its way to you. 723 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,760 Speaker 1: So thank you again for listening. Thank you as always 724 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 1: to our researcher Lucy Davidson for her assistance with this episode. 725 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 1: Make sure that if you enjoyed this episode and you 726 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: are listening to maybe go and check us out on Netflix. 727 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,440 Speaker 1: That is right, We now have episodes on Netflix, episodes 728 00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,760 Speaker 1: just like this one. Wherever you are in the world, 729 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 1: go and check it out. You can also follow us 730 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: on Instagram at that Psychology Podcast if you feel called 731 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:07,880 Speaker 1: to do so. If you want to contribute to episodes 732 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,319 Speaker 1: like this, we often have question boxes go up. We 733 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,480 Speaker 1: often look for listener stories that inform episodes just like 734 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: this one, so it's a great opportunity to get involved. 735 00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,880 Speaker 1: And yeah, there's all these other links. There's all these 736 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,160 Speaker 1: other things that you can access. I will just leave 737 00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: them in the description down below. But until next time, 738 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 1: be safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself. We will 739 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 1: talk very very soon.